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| Author | Topic: New Study On Benin Sickle Cell Variant In Europe |
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Thought2 Member Posts: 2035 |
posted 18 September 2005 03:37 PM
  
Thought Posts: Am J Hematol. 2005 Sep;80(1):79-80. Evidence for the molecular heterogeneity of sickle cell anemia chromosomes bearing the beta(S)/Benin haplotype. Patrinos GP, Samperi P, Lo Nigro L, Kollia P, Schiliro G, Papadakis MN. LAIKON General Hospital, Center for Thalassemia, Unit of Prenatal Diagnosis, Athens, Greece. There are at least four distinct African and one Asian chromosomal backgrounds (haplotypes) on which the sickle cell mutation has arisen. Additionally, previous data suggest that the beta(S)/Bantu haplotype is heterogeneous at the molecular level. Here, we report the presence of the (A)gamma -499 T-->A variation in sickle cell anemia chromosomes of Sicilian and North African origin bearing the beta(S)/Benin haplotype. Being absent from North American beta(S)/Benin chromosomes, which were studied previously, this variation is indicative for the molecular heterogeneity of the beta(S)/Benin haplotype. Am. J. Hematol. 80:79-80, 2005. Thought Writes: Interesting that the Benin Haplotype had time to diversify in North Africa or Southern Europe. More evidence of the ancient West African connection for Southern Europeans. [This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 18 September 2005).] IP: Logged |
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Super car Member Posts: 1802 |
posted 18 September 2005 05:35 PM
quote:
quote: Undeniable! IP: Logged |
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Thought2 Member Posts: 2035 |
posted 18 September 2005 06:37 PM
Thought Writes: When we take the first study and juxtapose it with the following study we then see that the lines of distinction between coastal and Sub-Saharan Africa were much less stark historically. Thought Posts: Female gene pools of Berber and Arab neighboring communities in central Tunisia: microstructure of mtDNA variation in North Africa. Hum Biol. 2005 Feb;77(1):61-70. Cherni et al. North African populations are considered genetically closer to Eurasians than to sub-Saharans. However, they display a considerably high mtDNA heterogeneity among them, namely in the frequencies of the U6, East African, and sub-Saharan haplogroups. In this study, we describe and compare the female gene pools of two neighboring Tunisian populations, Kesra (Berber) and Zriba (non-Berber), which have contrasting historical backgrounds. Both populations presented lower diversity values than those observed for other North African populations, and they were the only populations not showing significant negative Fu's F(S) values. Kesra displayed a much higher proportion of typical sub-Saharan haplotypes (49%, including 4.2% of M1 haplogroup) than Zriba (8%). With respect to U6 sequences, frequencies were low (2% in Kesra and 8% in Zriba), and all belonged to the subhaplogroup U6a. An analysis of these data in the context of North Africa reveals that the emerging picture is complex, because Zriba would match the profile of a Berber Moroccan population, whereas Kesra, which shows twice the frequency of sub-Saharan lineages normally observed in northern coastal populations, would match a western Saharan population except for the low U6 frequency. The North African patchy mtDNA landscape has no parallel in other regions of the world and increasing the number of sampled populations has not been accompanied by any substantial increase in our understanding of its phylogeography. Available data up to now rely on sampling small, scattered populations, although they are carefully characterized in terms of their ethnic, linguistic, and historical backgrounds. It is therefore doubtful that this picture truly represents the complex historical demography of the region rather than being just the result of the type of samplings performed so far. IP: Logged |
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yazid904 Member Posts: 182 |
posted 18 September 2005 07:21 PM
Benin/S type would be more prevelant in Central and South AMerica via Southern Europe (Spain, Portugal, Sicily) of which Greece is included though its influence in Latin AMerica is nil. It only shows that with genetic drift infleunced by waves of slave trade )of which I would say it is recent and repeated) from about 1550-1850, where social integration for Africans was better in areas close to their homeland. One may quicker find an African speaking a Latin language (Spanish, French, Portuguese, etc) or even an Asian, Indian, due to the influence/integration of cultural ideas. The Spanish language followed the Arabic custom of disparate groups speaking the same language as a way to make the realm larger and more encomapssing. IP: Logged |
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Djehuti Member Posts: 1647 |
posted 18 September 2005 07:23 PM
What about the presence of sickle cell in India? IP: Logged |
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Super car Member Posts: 1802 |
posted 18 September 2005 07:32 PM
quote: There are both African variants and Asian variants. IP: Logged |
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Djehuti Member Posts: 1647 |
posted 18 September 2005 07:35 PM
quote: What are the distributions of the types and what do you know of recent African lineages in India? Do the African lineages correspond to the Harappan people or something? IP: Logged |
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rasol Member Posts: 4407 |
posted 18 September 2005 07:37 PM
quote: There are 4 distinct haplotypes whose distribution is shown below: Following distinctions need to be kept in mind when discussing this issue. haplotype [gene] - benin hbs, which originates in West Africa and is endemic in parts of southern Europe. morphology - sickle cell [sickle shaped blood cells], central effect of the Benin Hbs gene, which provides protection against the usually mosquito transmittted parasite that causes malaria. [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 18 September 2005).] IP: Logged |
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Super car Member Posts: 1802 |
posted 18 September 2005 07:39 PM
el-Hazmi MA, Warsy AS, Bashir N, Beshlawi A, Hussain IR, Temtamy S, Qubaili F. Medical Biochemistry Department, World Health Organization Collaborating Centre for Haemoglobinopathies, Thalassaemias and Enzymopathies, College of Medicine, King Khalid University Hospital, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. "We collaborated with researchers from Egypt, Syrian Arab Republic and Jordan in a study of patients with sickle-cell disease from those countries, and from various parts of Saudi Arabia, in order to investigate the influence of genetics on the clinical presentation of the disease, and to attempt to determine the **origin** of the sickle-cell gene in Arabs. Our results suggest that beta-globin gene haplotypes influence the clinical presentation of sickle-cell disease, and that there are at least two major foci for the origin of the sickle-cell gene, one in the eastern part of Saudi Arabia, and the other in the populations of North Africa and the north-western part of the Arabian peninsula…The Benin haplotype was found in patients with severe disease, either as homozygous or in combination with another haplotype. The majority of Syrians and Jordanians had the Benin haplotype, and severe disease. However, one in three Syrians and one in five Jordanians had a milder disease, and the Saudi-Indian haplotype was identified. All Saudi patients from south-western and north-western areas, where the disease is generally severe, had the Benin haplotype in the homozygous or heterozygous state. Of the Saudi patients from the eastern area, where a mild form of SCD exists, only 9% had the Benin haplotype. The remainder had the Saudi-Indian haplotype, either in its homozygous or heterozygous state…Restriction endonuclease restriction sites have provided a useful insight into the normal polymorphic variations in the DNA surrounding various gene loci, where a combination of two or more polymorphic sites has led to the identification of specific haplotype patterns [13,14]. This has been of significance in the study of the regions surrounding the b-globin gene (i.e. the b-globin gene cluster), where several polymorphic sites have been identified, and population differences have been found on analysis of the haplotype pattern [9]. An interesting observation is that the sickle-cell mutation has occurred on chromosomes carrying different polymorphic sites and different b-globin gene haplotypes, and this seems to play a role in the clinical expression of SCD [9]. Posted earlier @ http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001404.html IP: Logged |
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Djehuti Member Posts: 1647 |
posted 18 September 2005 07:50 PM
So there is a sickle-cell haplotype indigenous to India... One thing I'm confused is that the article says that people who have the heterozygous form of the allele still have the disease. I thought only homozygous recessive have the disease but heterozygous are just carriers? But there is more than one allele for sickle cell, correct? [This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 18 September 2005).] IP: Logged |
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Super car Member Posts: 1802 |
posted 18 September 2005 08:04 PM
quote: Both have diseases, it is just that the heterozygous state has less chance of having the severe cases than the homozygous state. And of course, there is more than one allele involved. [This message has been edited by Super car (edited 18 September 2005).] IP: Logged |
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Super car Member Posts: 1802 |
posted 18 September 2005 09:44 PM
quote: From the study provided earlier: "The Benin haplotype was found in patients with severe disease, either as homozygous or in combination with another haplotype." [This message has been edited by Super car (edited 18 September 2005).] IP: Logged |
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Thought2 Member Posts: 2035 |
posted 18 September 2005 11:56 PM
quote: Thought Posts: 3' haplotypes of the beta-globin gene in beta(S)-chromosomes of Mexican individuals.
Division de Genetica, Centro de Investigacion Biomedica de Occidente, CMNO, IMSS, Sierra Mojada No. 800, Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico. The beta-globin gene cluster has shown high polymorphic diversity organized in 5' and 3' haplotypes (Hps). beta(S)-Chromosomes are in linkage disequilibrium with the 5' Hps Bantu, Benin, Senegal, Cameroon, and Arab-Indian. In Mexican mestizos with African west coast origins, we observed the following 5' Hps in beta(S)-chromosomes: Bantu, 78.8%; Benin, 18.2%; and atypical Hp 9, 3.0%. With the purpose of establishing the 3' Hps, we analyzed 35 polymorphic sites--6 by RFLP analysis and 29 by DNA sequencing--in 33 unrelated beta(S)-chromosomes. The polymorphic sites were structured according to Harding et al. [R.M. Harding, S.M. Fullerton, R.C. Griffiths, J.B. Clegg, Archaic African and Asian lineages in the genetic ancestry of modern humans, Am. J. Hum. Genet. 60 (1997) 772-789] and Lapoumeroulie et al. [C. Lapoumeroulie, O. Dunda, R. Ducrocq, G. Trabuchet, M. Mony-Lobe, J.M. Bodo, P. Carnevale, D. Labie, J. Elion, R. Krishnamoorthy, A novel sickle cell mutation of yet another origin in Africa: the Cameroon type, Hum. Genet. 89 (1992) 333-337]. All Bantu beta(S)-chromosomes showed the 12A1 3' Hp with (AT)6T9 repeats (84.9%), a novel 3' Hp. The Benin Hp was 2B2, with (AT)8T4 (12.1%), and the atypical Hp 9 4B1, (AT)8T5 (3.0%). Because of the high linkage disequilibrium observed for the Bantu and 12A1 Hps, we expect that, if there is a single origin of the Bantu beta(S) mutation, all must show the 12A1 polymorphic DNA sequence in the 3' Hp. A correlation between the 5' and 3' Hps could be observed with the other beta(S) mutations. The atypical Hp 9 was also atypical at the 3' Hp, with the same repeats as observed with the Cameroon beta(S) mutation; however, it differed in one position from the typical Lapoumeroulie Cameroon Hp, indicating that these beta(S)-chromosomes arose by different genetic mechanisms or by a novel beta(S) mutation. We stress the importance of the study of DNA polymorphisms at 3' Hp to allow understanding of the genetic diversity of beta(S)-chromosomes, as well as their implications in beta(S) gene expression and the possible effects on the clinical phenotype.
Hemoglobin. 2004 Aug;28(3):267-71. Related Articles, Links
Adorno EV, Zanette A, Lyra I, Souza CC, Santos LF, Menezes JF, Dupuit MF, Almeida MN, Reis MG, Goncalves MS. Laboratorio de Patologia e Biologia Molecular, Centro de Pesquisas Goncalo Moniz, Fundacao Oswaldo Cruz, Salvador-Bahia, Brazil. The beta(S)-globin haplotypes were studied in 78 sickle cell Brazilian patients from Bahia, Northeast Brazil, that has a large population of African origin. Hemoglobin (Hb) profiles were developed by high-performance liquid chromatography (HPLC), and beta(S)-globin gene haplotypes were determined by polymerase chain reaction-restriction fragment length polymorphism (PCR-RFLP) techniques. We identified 44 (55.0%) patients with the CAR/Ben (Central African Republic/Benin) genotype, 16 (20.0%) Ben/Ben, 13 (16.2%) CAR/CAR and seven (8.8%) with other genotypes. Analyses of the phenotypes showed clinical differences related only to Hb F levels and blood transfusion therapy; the presence of -alpha(-3.7)-thalassemia (thal) demonstrated statistical significance when associated with hematocrit (p=0.044), MCV (p=0.0007), MCH (p=0.012) and spleen sequestration events. The haplotype diversity found in the present study can be justified by information about the origin of the slave traffic period in Bahia during the 19th century. The specific characteristics described among the Bahian sickle cell patients could be confirmed by increasing the number of patients with specific genotypes and further studies of genetic markers. Thought Posts: Braz J Med Biol Res. 2003 Oct;36(10):1283-8. Epub 2003 Sep 16. Related Articles, Links Goncalves MS, Bomfim GC, Maciel E, Cerqueira I, Lyra I, Zanette A, Bomfim G, Adorno EV, Albuquerque AL, Pontes A, Dupuit MF, Fernandes GB, dos Reis MG. Laboratorio de Patologia e Biologia Molecular, Centro de Pesquisas Goncalo Moniz, FIOCRUZ, Salvador, BA, Brasil. mari@cpqgm.fiocruz.br BetaS-Globin haplotypes were studied in 80 (160 betaS chromosomes) sickle cell disease patients from Salvador, Brazil, a city with a large population of African origin resulting from the slave trade from Western Africa, mainly from the Bay of Benin. Hematological and hemoglobin analyses were carried out by standard methods. The betaS-haplotypes were determined by PCR and dot-blot techniques. A total of 77 (48.1%) chromosomes were characterized as Central African Republic (CAR) haplotype, 73 (45.6%) as Benin (BEN), 1 (0.63%) as Senegal (SEN), and 9 (5.63%) as atypical (Atp). Genotype was CAR/CAR in 17 (21.3%) patients, BEN/BEN in 17 (21.3%), CAR/BEN in 37 (46.3%), BEN/SEN in 1 (1.25%), BEN/Atp in 1 (1.25%), CAR/Atp in 6 (7.5%), and Atp/Atp in 1 (1.25%). Hemoglobin concentrations and hematocrit values did not differ among genotype groups but were significantly higher in 25 patients presenting percent fetal hemoglobin (%HbF) > or = 10% (P = 0.002 and 0.003, respectively). The median HbF concentration was 7.54+/-4.342% for the CAR/CAR genotype, 9.88 3.558% for the BEN/BEN genotype, 8.146 4.631% for the CAR/BEN genotype, and 4.180+/-2.250% for the CAR/Atp genotype (P = 0.02), although 1 CAR/CAR individual presented an HbF concentration as high as 15%. In view of the ethnic and geographical origin of this population, we did not expect a Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium for CAR/CAR and BEN/BEN homozygous haplotypes and a high proportion of heterozygous CAR/BEN haplotypes since the State of Bahia historically received more slaves from Western Africa than from Central Africa. Thought Posts: Am J Hum Biol. 2003 Jan-Feb;15(1):29-37. Related Articles, Links Vivenes De Lugo M, Rodriguez-Larralde A, Castro De Guerra D. Instituto Venezolano de Investigaciones Cientificas (IVIC), Centro de Medicina Experimental, Laboratorio de Genetica Humana, Caracas 1020 A, Venezuela. In order to study the origin of mutation HBB*S in Sucre and Anzoategui states and the genetic affinities of these Venezuelan populations with other human groups, the beta-globin gene cluster haplotypes were determined for 28 sickle cell and/or S-beta thalassemia patients and for 37 individuals with normal hematological parameters. Bantu, Benin, Senegal, and atypical haplotypes were identified in 50%, 36%, 2%, and 12% of the HBB*S chromosomes, respectively. Similar results have been published for Venezuelan patients from the central states, but a different trend is shown in a publication based on a group of patients from different regions of the country. For HBB*A, haplotype 2 (+ - - - -), characteristic of non-African groups, was the most common (39%), followed by haplotype 3 (- - - - +) of African origin, and haplotype 6 (- + + - +), also typical of non-Africans. The results reveal a high level of admixture of the Sucre-Anzoategui population. The importance of specific conditions which have acted differently in the Venezuelan populations, such as founder effect, genetic drift, isolation, and endogamy are discussed. Genetic distances between the Sucre-Anzoategui sample and several other human populations calculated on the basis of the HBB*S and HBB*A haplotypes revealed similar results, the closest genetic relationships being observed in relation to Bantu-speaking groups. These results confirm the utility of the beta-globin haplotypes for population studies and contribute to knowledge of the Venezuelan gene pool. Copyright 2002 Wiley-Liss, Inc. Thought Posts: Blood Cells Mol Dis. 2002 Mar-Apr;28(2):121-6. Related Articles, Links Magana MT, Ongay Z, Tagle J, Bentura G, Cobian JG, Perea FJ, Casas-Castaneda M, Sanchez-Lopez YJ, Ibarra B. Division de Genetica, Centro de Investigacion Biomedica de Occidente, CMNO, IMSS, Sierra Mojada No. 800, Col. Independencia, Guadalajara, Mexico. To investigate the origin of the beta(A) and beta(S) genes in a Mexican population with African roots and a high frequency of hemoglobin S, we analyzed 467 individuals (288 unrelated) from different towns in the states of Guerrero and Oaxaca in the Costa Chica region. The frequency of the sickle-cell trait was 12.8%, which may represent a public health problem. The frequencies of the beta-haplotypes were determined from 350 nonrelated chromosomes (313 beta(A) and 37 beta(S)). We observed 15 different beta(A) haplotypes, the most common of which were haplotypes 1 (48.9%), 2 (13.4%), and 3 (13.4%). The calculation of pairwise distributions and Nei's genetic distance analysis using 32 worldwide populations showed that the beta(A) genes are more closely related to those of Mexican Mestizos and North Africans. Bantu and Benin haplotypes and haplotype 9 were related to the beta(S) genes, with frequencies of 78.8, 18.2, and 3.0%, respectively. Comparison of these haplotypes with 17 other populations revealed a high similitude with the population of the Central African Republic. These data suggest distinct origins for the beta(A) and beta(S) genes in Mexican individuals from the Costa Chica region. Thought Posts: Hemoglobin. 2000 Aug;24(3):221-5. Related Articles, Links
Cuellar-Ambrosi F, Mondragon MC, Figueroa M, Prehu C, Galacteros F, Ruiz-Linares A. Seccion de Hematologia, Departamento de Medicina Interna, Facultad de Medicina, Universidad de Antioquia, Medellin, Colombia. fcuellar@excite.com We studied 46 unrelated sickle cell anemia patients from the western region of Colombia which has the largest Black population of the country. Twenty-three children and 23 adults were studied. The distribution of haplotypes in the children was 58% Bantu, 38% Benin, and 4% Senegal, and in the adults it was 59.4% Bantu, 35.1% Benin, and 5.5% Senegal (p = 0.920). All 92 chromosomes had typical African haplotypes, Bantu 55.5%, Benin 34.8%, Senegal, 4.3%, and Cameroon, 5.4%. Our results suggest a lack of differential survival among patients with sickle cell anemia and typical beta-globin gene cluster haplotypes. They also agree closely with historical data that indicate that most African slaves brought to Colombia originated from Angola (Bantu population) and the Sao Thomo Island in the Bight of Benin (Central West Africa). Thought Posts: Am J Hematol. 2000 Jun;64(2):87-90. Related Articles, Links Arends A, Alvarez M, Velazquez D, Bravo M, Salazar R, Guevara JM, Castillo O. Laboratorio de Hemoglobinas Anormales, Servicio de Hematologia "Dr. Tulio Arends" Hospital Universitario de Caracas, Caracas, Venezuela. aarends@ibm.net Sickle cell anemia and alpha-thalassemia have a heterogeneous distribution in Venezuela with a high frequency in the coastal area (sea level) and few cases in the mountains. Most of our population is an ethnic admixture of Europeans (Spaniards colonists), Africans (slaves), and Amerindians. The purpose of our study was to determine the origin of the beta(s) globin haplotype, age and survival dependency, and the admixture among the different African groups in our population. The alpha(3.7) globin gene deletion status was also studied and found in a very high frequency. DNA from peripheral blood of 191 non-related patients (81 with HbS homozygous and 15 patients compound heterozygous for HbS, HbC, HbD with beta-thalassemia, and 95 with sickle cell trait) were studied. The beta(s) chromosome was linked 51% to the Benin Haplotype, 29.5% with the CAR, 12.5% to the Senegal, and 2.5% to the Cameroon. We did not find any significant difference between the haplotype distribution among adults and children and among sickle cell patients and traits. Only 8.6% of the patients have homozygosity for the Benin haplotype. These results show a very high frequency of admixture in our African origin population. Copyright 2000 Wiley-Liss, Inc. IP: Logged |
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Evil Euro Member Posts: 824 |
posted 19 September 2005 07:51 AM
quote: The small, insignificant connection that cannot be quantified by looking at blood groups like sickle cell.
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shirani Junior Member Posts: 4 |
posted 19 September 2005 09:28 AM
Isn't E3b Sub-Saharan  so that would give some Europeans 25-30% Sub-Saharan Y chromosome admixture.IP: Logged |
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Horemheb Member Posts: 2757 |
posted 19 September 2005 09:32 AM
That study is not an indication of anthing. Notice that Thoughtless pointed out the results of the study and then picked his favorite answer without considering any other possibility. In truth, he in too ignorant to know how to correctly use the data. IP: Logged |
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yazid904 Member Posts: 182 |
posted 19 September 2005 09:39 AM
Euro, What is amusing about your link is that the Eurocentric approach is becoming a game of influence, in that some of the topics, though informative, are decptive in tone and scope. The topic "How African is North Africa?" epidomizes a disturbing pattern indicative of such research (at least, the guise of it). Why would anyone try to disassociate a continent and for what purpose? It is like someone saying "How European is Southern Europe?", an equally absurd premise. I am sure many Northern Europeans have said the same of Southern Europeans, or the same of Slavic peoples (origin of the word slave). Despite my pronouncment, it would make sense that Germany and Austria would not have much sub Saharan Y chrosomes but France would have 2x the frequency. A determinant may be a southern city like Marseilles vs places North of Paris! just a tort! IP: Logged |
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rasol Member Posts: 4407 |
posted 19 September 2005 09:39 AM
quote: Yes. IP: Logged |
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rasol Member Posts: 4407 |
posted 19 September 2005 09:42 AM
quote: I'm going to ask you this as politely as possible. Can you please educate us on these other possibilities? What are they exactly? What sources of information can illumine them for us? Please be specific as possible. Thank you. IP: Logged |
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Horemheb Member Posts: 2757 |
posted 19 September 2005 09:43 AM
yazid, there is a clear distinction. North Africa is populated by caucasians and has been since antiquity. Europeans differ little in any area of the contient. As a point of information, there is no such thing as a "Eurocentric approach." IP: Logged |
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rasol Member Posts: 4407 |
posted 19 September 2005 10:24 AM
I ask again...... quote: IP: Logged |
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Horemheb Member Posts: 2757 |
posted 19 September 2005 10:30 AM
Yeah rasol....there could be several possibilities, are you a genetics expert? When did it get there? How? Who? This is typical Afrocentric crap. Quote a study and then say "since this could be the answer, it is." You are supposed to learn this stuff in sophomore Logic. IP: Logged |
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rasol Member Posts: 4407 |
posted 19 September 2005 10:44 AM
quote: Such as?
quote: Those are questions, not answers. Don't you even know how to answer questions? What University did you graduate from, Professor? ? IP: Logged |
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Horemheb Member Posts: 2757 |
posted 19 September 2005 10:50 AM
Thoughtless was the one who claimed to have the answers rasol, not me. Go back and read what I said. Lamar University and the University of Houston, how about you? IP: Logged |
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rasol Member Posts: 4407 |
posted 19 September 2005 11:05 AM
quote: In other words, you have no specifics and so can't answer the questions. Very well. Just wanted to confirm. Thanks. IP: Logged |
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Djehuti Member Posts: 1647 |
posted 19 September 2005 11:47 AM
quote: Hore, why not answer Rasol properly and be more specific on what these "other possibilities" are? And on top of that can you give us the precise origin and chronology of these "caucasians" of North Africa?? Where did they originally come from, since they sure aren't aboriginal to the area, and when did they get there?? IP: Logged |
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Horemheb Member Posts: 2757 |
posted 19 September 2005 11:55 AM
What the other possibilities are is not even what we were talking about. Go back a read the thread and try to get it right. I never claimed to have the answers., I was being critical of thoughtless' lack of logic (jumping to conclusions) and his desire to jump first at the answer that suited his own position. IP: Logged |
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Djehuti Member Posts: 1647 |
posted 19 September 2005 12:26 PM
Well instead of jumping to conclusions, how do you explain these North Africans? IP: Logged |
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Horemheb Member Posts: 2757 |
posted 19 September 2005 12:41 PM
This is 2005 in case you don't have a calander. you can find all kinds of people living everywhere. That said, the majority of North Africans are caucasians. IP: Logged |
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Djehuti Member Posts: 1647 |
posted 19 September 2005 12:47 PM
quote: Yes but only an idiot would deny that blacks are indigenous to North Africa as well! It's true there are "caucasian" people in Africa but blacks have lived in the region long before they arrived. And exactly how do you know that "caucasians" are the majority? What population statistics have you read? I'm sure that "caucasian" Berbers plus Arab invaders would have had an impact in demographics. But you cannot ignore black Berber groups like the Siwa, Sanhaja, Tuareg, Haratin, and Jerba. [This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 19 September 2005).] IP: Logged |
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Djehuti Member Posts: 1647 |
posted 19 September 2005 01:05 PM
Really professor, this is like saying most people in America are "caucasian" does this mean this was always the case? IP: Logged |
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Horemheb Member Posts: 2757 |
posted 19 September 2005 01:05 PM
as a point of information I looked it up in the united nations demographic profile of the world. The same question came up on this board last year and i'm sure it will next year. None of this has anything to do with Thoughtless' improper use of logic in his initial post. IP: Logged |
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osirion Member Posts: 716 |
posted 19 September 2005 01:21 PM
quote:
If thought is ignorant of other possibilities then so are you since I have not heard you even speculate on other possibilities. IP: Logged |
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yazid904 Member Posts: 182 |
posted 19 September 2005 01:25 PM
H, I try to temper my logic with a little common sense (hardly common) but if a non-European (African) say x it is deemed correct, it is Afrocentric. If European states the same x, it deemed right and no one (usually those who are honorary Europeans meaning not born in Europe) says a thing! OK. What will you say with the new research (real or imaginary) saying humans came out of Asia (out of Asia theory)? WIll you automatically switch your raison d'etre? I have some friends in Dearborn, MI and I am sure they would not mind (using your thread of thought!) being profiled, stopped, harassed by their European brethren at the airport! That is true reality and none other! hoda hafez IP: Logged |
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bandon19 Member Posts: 177 |
posted 19 September 2005 01:28 PM
evil euro now europeans come out colored yahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh sureeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. IP: Logged |
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bandon19 Member Posts: 177 |
posted 19 September 2005 01:45 PM
how come east africans with admixture are called caucasion from arab admixture. But when IT COME TO ARABS LIKE YEMEN AND SUAID ARABIA THEY GOT ADMIXTURE TO SCIENTIST SAY IT GOS BOTH WAYS BUT THE ARABS ARE NOT CALLED NEGROS. I SMELL A DOUBLE STANDER THIS IS THE EUROPEAN WAY WAY OF FEELING LIKE THEY ARE THE OFF SPRING TO EVERYONE. IM NOT AFROCENTRIT DONT CARE FOR IT EVIL EURO BUT U GUYS ARE THE SAME WAY HOLDING THESE DOUBLE STANDERDS LIKE EURO SCIENTIST. IP: Logged |
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Horemheb Member Posts: 2757 |
posted 19 September 2005 02:06 PM
You would be the ignorant person for moving the argument to a place that has nothing to do with my comments. you have changed the subject and then become critical of me for not conforming. When you get on the correct subject we can finish the conversation. This is typical.... IP: Logged |
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Horemheb Member Posts: 2757 |
posted 19 September 2005 02:08 PM
You would be the ignorant person for moving the argument to a place that has nothing to do with my comments. you have changed the subject and then become critical of me for not conforming. When you get on the correct subject we can finish the conversation. This is typical.... IP: Logged |
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mali Member Posts: 234 |
posted 19 September 2005 02:21 PM
quote: Its amusing how you never respone or always off topic. And never provide scholar or peer reviews.. Yet u critisize others who have always used peer reviews to back there claims. with a limited paragroh here or there discussing ur dislike for others. Professor ( i doubt) enlighten us with more then a few sentences and target gestures. IP: Logged |
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Horemheb Member Posts: 2757 |
posted 19 September 2005 03:11 PM
AQgain, go back and reade what Thoughtless said. he quoted the study and then made up his own conclusion with no peer review to back him up. That was the subject you keep trying to nget around. If you are going to use phrases like 'peer review' at least have some idea of how it should be applied. IP: Logged |
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rasol Member Posts: 4407 |
posted 19 September 2005 04:11 PM
quote: What conclusion was made that lacked support from peer review? Once again we politely ask you for specifics, but none are forthcoming, ever, from you. How very boring your zero-content approach to discussion is professor. IP: Logged |
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Evil Euro Member Posts: 824 |
posted 20 September 2005 06:47 AM
quote: No. The clusters of E3b in Europe originated in the Balkans and North Africa. They're not Sub-Saharan.
quote: Black "Berbers" have recent Negroid admixture IP: Logged |
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rasol Member Posts: 4407 |
posted 20 September 2005 08:03 AM
quote: Correct. **All** E3b lineages derive from sub-saharn E3b. SouthEast Europeans like the Greeks have downstream E3b1, called alpha cluster, and SouthWest Europeans like Portugese have downstream E3b2. The recent date of these lineages helps confirm that they were introduced INTO Europe FROM Africa and West Asia, during the Neolithic and also the Islamic era of Moorish dominion in Southern Europe. IP: Logged |
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Horemheb Member Posts: 2757 |
posted 20 September 2005 08:33 AM
rasol, How does the recent data you mentioned indicate they were introduced in neol;ithic times and during the Muslim conquest in Spain? IP: Logged |
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yazid904 Member Posts: 182 |
posted 20 September 2005 09:23 AM
Muslim conquest was from 711-1492. The Berber Tariq (officially) was called by the Visigoths kings to suppress uprisings but it seems there were already 'Arabs' (Moros) residing in Spain as residents prior to 711. The ones who stayed either converted to Christianity, or through intermarriage went to place where no one ha dknowledge of their background. IP: Logged |
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Horemheb Member Posts: 2757 |
posted 20 September 2005 09:37 AM
Yazid, We know when these things took place. Rasol said that this confirms that the African influence occured during neolithic times and during Muslim invasion. I simply asked him how it confirms those periods and not others. IP: Logged |
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rasol Member Posts: 4407 |
posted 20 September 2005 09:44 AM
quote: From Geneticist Fulvio Cruciani, 2004: The relatively young TMRCA of 5.6 ky that we estimated for haplogroup E-M81 and the lack of differentiation between European and African haplotypes in the network of E-M81 support the hypothesis of recent recent gene flow may have brought E3b chromosomes from northwestern Africa into Iberia....as a consequence of the Islamic occupation of the peninsula. E3b alpha found in 23% of Greek Males has slightly older mrca [most recent common ancestor] of 7.8 ky which dates to the Neolithic: Geneticist PA Underhill: About 80 percent of all European males shared a single pattern, [R1b and I] suggesting they had a common ancestor thousands of generations ago. A primitive, stone-age human came to Europe, probably from Central Asia and the Middle East, in two waves of migration beginning about 40,000 years ago. About 24,000 years ago, the last ice age began, with mountain-sized glaciers moving across most of Europe. Paleolithic Europeans retreated before the ice, finding refuge for hundreds of generations in three areas: what is now Spain, the Balkans and the Ukraine. When the glaciers melted, about 16,000 years ago, the Paleolithic tribes resettled the rest of Europe. About 8,000 years ago, a more advanced people, the Neolithic, migrated to Europe from the Middle East, bringing with them a new Y chromosome pattern [E3b and J] and a new way of life: agriculture. About 20 percent of Europeans now have the Y chromosome pattern from this migration, he said. - Underhill Historian Christopher Ehret: We actually have DNA evidence which fits very well with an intrusion of people from NorthEast Africa into southwestern Asia. The Y-chromosome markers, associated with the male, fade out as you go deeper into the Middle East. [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 20 September 2005).] IP: Logged |
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Horemheb Member Posts: 2757 |
posted 20 September 2005 09:52 AM
I note that Crucani used the word 'may.' Otherwise, a good post, thanks for the info. IP: Logged |
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rasol Member Posts: 4407 |
posted 20 September 2005 10:01 AM
^^ Fair enough. IP: Logged |
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Thought2 Member Posts: 2035 |
posted 21 September 2005 10:07 PM
quote: Thought Posts: Goncalves et al IP: Logged |
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