posted
I think al Takruri reasonably covered the base for R clades, although I'd like to add that western-central African R markers likely include R markers with P25 mutation, like the V88 clades exemply, and those without it, as exemplified by Sudanese Fulani samples, which all reported no P25 mutation.
As for E markers, let's take a single and relatively recent African group, like the Imazighen. The characteristic modal marker for the Imazighen populations in this lineage, is the M81 mutation, followed by M78 variants. E-M81 is nowhere to be found in Yemen, and M78, although it occurs, is rare there too. coastal northern Imazighen samples have more diversity in their M78 gene pool than so-called "Near Easterners", according Cruciani et al.'s 2007 work. Does it therefore make sense that Imazighen gene pool, which includes paraphyletic clades, is a subset of "Near Eastern" counterpart, or from logic, it should be the other way around?
Imagine a relatively young African population outstripping "Near Eastern" counterparts in the above-mentioned markers. Now, move onto the continent in general, including older populations with hg E, and beyond E-M81 and E-M78. The same phenomenon presents itself: Diversity here subsumes that of the low incidences in the "Near East". Does it therefore make sense for the least diverse to be the superset of the more diverse?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: OK. Let us look at R first.
Q: Between continental Africa and the Arabian Peninsula, where is its highest frequency?
A: Lake Tschad region. Absent in SW Arabian Peninsula
Q: Which clade of R is it and where is it in Arabia?
A: R-V88 is absent in Yemen, Oman, Kuwait and SE Saudi.
Q: Which peoples have its highest frequencies and are they Muslim or claim Arab antecedents?
A:96% Ouldeme; non-Muslim, no Arab claims __88% Mafa; majority non-Muslim, no Arab claims __82% Mada; half are non-Muslim, no Arab claims __78% Guiziga; non-Muslim, no Arab claims.
Q: When did R (supposedly) back migrate to Africa and did Arabs or Islam exist then?
A: 12,300BCE-9,600BCE; 9000 years before Arabs 10,000 years before Islam.
Q: What is the birth age and birthplace of R-V88?
A: (Proposed) 7200BCE-3600BCE in the central Sahara.
R-V88 serves as no genetic proof of Arab paternity. Quite the opposite, R-V88 is African specific. The infinitesimal frequency of its occurence in western Asia points to its less than slight presence is due to African introduction.
Maps from Chiaronia (2009) corrected supplement.
I find nothing in your Arabic source forum مواضيع المنتدى : السلالة R that isn't based on English language population genetics reports. And mind you, it's nothing more than a discussion forum just like ours.
Again:
"European Journal of Human Genetics (6 January 2010) | doi:10.1038/ejhg.2009.231
Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages
by Fulvio Cruciani , Beniamino Trombetta , Daniele Sellitto , Andrea Massaia , Giovanni Destro-Bisol , Elizabeth Watson , Eliane Beraud Colomb , Jean-Michel Dugoujon , Pedro Moral & Rosaria Scozzari
Abstract
Although human Y chromosomes belonging to haplogroup R1b are quite rare in Africa, being found mainly in Asia and Europe, a group of chromosomes within the paragroup R-P25|[ast]| are found concentrated in the central-western part of the African continent, where they can be detected at frequencies as high as 95|[percnt]|. Phylogenetic evidence and coalescence time estimates suggest that R-P25|[ast]| chromosomes (or their phylogenetic ancestor) may have been carried to Africa by an Asia-to-Africa back migration in prehistoric times. Here, we describe six new mutations that define the relationships among the African R-P25|[ast]| Y chromosomes and between these African chromosomes and earlier reported R-P25 Eurasian sub-lineages. The incorporation of these new mutations into a phylogeny of the R1b haplogroup led to the identification of a new clade (R1b1a or R-V88) encompassing all the African R-P25|[ast]| and about half of the few European|[sol]|west Asian R-P25|[ast]| chromosomes. A worldwide phylogeographic analysis of the R1b haplogroup provided strong support to the Asia-to-Africa back-migration hypothesis. The analysis of the distribution of the R-V88 haplogroup in >1800 males from 69 African populations revealed a striking genetic contiguity between the Chadic-speaking peoples from the central Sahel and several other Afroasiatic-speaking groups from North Africa. The R-V88 coalescence time was estimated at 9200–5600|[thinsp]|kya, in the early mid Holocene. We suggest that R-V88 is a paternal genetic record of the proposed mid-Holocene migration of proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers through the Central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin, and geomorphological evidence is consistent with this view. European Journal of Human Genetics advance online publication, 6 January 2010; doi:10.1038/ejhg.2009.231."
R1a1 M198 is found in Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Yemen, Oman, in tribes like Tai, Shamar and Anza in Kuwait. It's also found amongst the Mahra in the Yemen. It's age on the Arabian Peninsula is estimated to be 7,000 - 11,000 years old.
Interestingly though, in Oman the age of R1a1 is 11,400 years or 5,178 equivalent years using the same assumptions about generation length and mutation rate as above. In Iran and Pakistan it is 6,300 and 6,200 years old. Hence, all these ages seem very close to each other, and -given their confidence intervals- we cannot at present determine the point of origin of haplogroup R1a1.
R1b1a v88, which is believed to have been born in southern Sham (Syria) or northern Arabia, is clearly found in the Middle East and is present amongst the Anza and Azd tribes. The branch of r1b1a v88 found in northern Cameroon reached the area of Cameroon from the area of southern Sham (Syria) or northern Arabia via Egypt.
R1b is found in great numbers in the northern part of the Arabian Peninsula, in Sham (Syria, Palestine, Jordan), in Iraq. It can reach 40% in some of these areas.
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posted
Oops, no Arabian J chromosomes. We all know what that means.
Did you bother to read the report? The overwhelming Kel nrY clades are E-M2 and E-M81. Did you read the abstract you posted? What is the timeframe? Isn't it like some 8000 years optimum before there were any Arabs? C'mon man.
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry: Eur J Hum Genet. 2010 Aug;18(8):915-23. Epub 2010 Mar 17.
Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel.
Pereira L, Cerný V, Cerezo M, Silva NM, Hájek M, Vasíková A, Kujanová M, Brdicka R, Salas A.
Instituto de Patologia e Imunologia Molecular da Universidade do Porto (IPATIMUP), Porto, Portugal. Abstract
The Tuareg presently live in the Sahara and the Sahel. Their ancestors are commonly believed to be the Garamantes of the Libyan Fezzan, ever since it was suggested by authors of antiquity. Biological evidence, based on classical genetic markers, however, indicates kinship with the Beja of Eastern Sudan. Our study of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences and Y chromosome SNPs of three different southern Tuareg groups from Mali, Burkina Faso and the Republic of Niger reveals a West Eurasian-North African composition of their gene pool. The data show that certain genetic lineages could not have been introduced into this population earlier than approximately 9000 years ago whereas local expansions establish a minimal date at around 3000 years ago. Some of the mtDNA haplogroups observed in the Tuareg population were involved in the post-Last Glacial Maximum human expansion from Iberian refugia towards both Europe and North Africa. Interestingly, no Near Eastern mtDNA lineages connected with the Neolithic expansion have been observed in our population sample. On the other hand, the Y chromosome SNPs data show that the paternal lineages can very probably be traced to the Near Eastern Neolithic demic expansion towards North Africa, a period that is otherwise concordant with the above-mentioned mtDNA expansion. The time frame for the migration of the Tuareg towards the African Sahel belt overlaps that of early Holocene climatic changes across the Sahara (from the optimal greening approximately 10 000 YBP to the extant aridity beginning at approximately 6000 YBP) and the migrations of other African nomadic peoples in the area.
PMID: 20234393 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]PMCID: PMC2987384 [Available on 2011/8/1]
European Journal of Human Genetics advance online publication, 17 March 2010; doi:10.1038/ejhg.2010.21."
Q: Which peoples have its highest frequencies and are they Muslim or claim Arab antecedents?
A:96% Ouldeme; non-Muslim, no Arab claims __88% Mafa; majority non-Muslim, no Arab claims __82% Mada; half are non-Muslim, no Arab claims __78% Guiziga; non-Muslim, no Arab claims.
"No Arab claims" DOESN'T mean not of Arab origin.
Non-Muslim DOESN'T mean not of Arab origin.
What about the Jukun, who are not Muslims, but say that they are from Yemen. Do they say this for religious purposes???
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
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Get serious. What does R1a1 have to do with R-V88?
I mean this is not even good enthusiast straw grasping.
Your ignorance of genetics is embarassing yourself.
awlaadberry is just a copy & paste artist, and has no concept of genetics; this is why every time someone crushes what is given in his/her copy & paste, he/she is unable to reply, other than to helplessly recite the same rebutted material in a repetitive loop.
As long he/she eyeballs something to the effect of "so and so marker is in Arabia", it matters not, what the phylogenetic, frequency and distribution patterns of the markers actually say.
To awlaadberry, "so and so marker is in Arabia" translates into only one thing: "it is an Arab marker"; it doesn't matter what is actually being said as to why it is there.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Get serious. What does R1a1 have to do with R-V88?
I mean this is not even good enthusiast straw grasping.
Your ignorance of genetics is embarassing yourself.
I'm speaking about the different Rs in Arabia. I never said that R1a1 was R1b1a v88. What are you talking about???
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
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Europeans must be Arabs eh, awlaadberry? They carry R1b.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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1)Why is hg E far more diverse in Africa vs. Arabia?
2)Why are the major clades of YAP+ [hg E and hg D] diverse in two different areas, that is NOT Arabia? Why is hg D in east Asia instead of Arabia?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Your ignorance of genetics is embarassing yourself. [/QB]
I never claimed to be a geneticist, but I do know that the expert geneticists say that R1b1a V88 is from the Near East. And I believe them. You are free to believe what you want. I also know that the Hausa, who are R1b1a V88, say that they are from the Near East and I believe them. You are free to believe what you want. You can sit here and claim that the experts don't say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia, but it doesn't change the fact that the experts say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. I'm not sure what you are out to prove, but I don't have time to argue back and forth with you about something that the experts have already said. Argue with the experts who say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. Don't argue with me. Argue with the Hausa elders who say that their tradition says that they are from the Near East. Don't argue with me. I believe the experts in genetics and I believe the Hausa tradition. Do you have a problem with that?
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Europeans must be Arabs eh, awlaadberry? They carry R1b.
No. Europeans must be Africans, right Explorer? Like the people of Cameroon. And don't forget that Europeans carry J1, too.
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
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Europeans must be Arabs eh, awlaadberry? They carry R1b.
No.
It is your own word that hg R is an Arab haplogroup. You have labeled Africans in all directions as "Arabs" on the account of having "Arab haplogroups". Why are Europeans an exception to this funny rule of your's?
quote: Europeans must be Africans, right Explorer?
This is a figment of your imagination.
quote: Like the people of Cameroon. And don't forget that Europeans carry J1, too.
So, you are not convinced that Cameroon is in Africa? And you've changed your mind in a few seconds, that they are back to being Arabs, on the account of J1?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Based on your logic, they might as well be. And in fact, that would make a far better case than your rule vis-a-vis "Arab haplogroups".
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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To awlaadberry, "so and so marker is in Arabia" translates into only one thing: "it is an Arab marker"; it doesn't matter what is actually being said as to why it is there. [/QB]
And you can go to the Arab tribes of Arabia who carry these markers and tell them that you, Explorer, hereby declare that they are not of Arab origin. And what I said to AlTakruri applies to you, too. Please see above.
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Not that anyone could mistake you for one, that's for sure.
quote:
but I do know that the expert geneticists say that R1b1a V88 is from the Near East.
...which is why it is rare to absent there?
quote: And I believe them. You are free to believe what you want. I also know that the Hausa, who are R1b1a V88, say that they are from the Near East and I believe them.
Entertain me with Hausa legends that say this.
quote: You are free to believe what you want. You can sit here and claim that the experts don't say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia, but it doesn't change the fact that the experts say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. I'm not sure what you are out to prove, but I don't have time to argue back and forth with you about something that the experts have already said. Argue with the experts who say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. Don't argue with me. Argue with the Hausa elders who say that their tradition says that they are from the Near East. Don't argue with me. I believe the experts in genetics and I believe the Hausa tradition. Do you have a problem with that?
You constantly apply the term "experts" as though you are addressing Allah or Gods, and that the so-called "experts" are infallible. Do you think that these so-called "experts" are supernatural, make no errors, have no bias, and so forth?
If you are confident that your "experts" are unequivocally right, how come you never addressed my rebuttal to your "experts'" abstract?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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And you can go to the Arab tribes of Arabia who carry these markers and tell them that you, Explorer, hereby declare that they are not of Arab origin. And what I said to AlTakruri applies to you, too. Please see above.
So, I have to have approval of some Arab tribes of Arabia, before I assign an origin to a marker? And I had better make sure I don't make a mistake of mislabeling a marker "non-Arab"?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
You argue against the experts. R-V88 is an African specific marker which you keep trying to make Near Eastern because you don't understand the difference between macrohaplogroup R and subclade R-V88.
Cruciani, whose abstract you posted but can't grasp and whose full report you haven't bothered to digest,
quote: We suggest that R-V88 is a paternal genetic record of the proposed mid-Holocene migration of proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers through the Central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin,
Nothing about Arabs there Mr. Berry.
Stop playing your sucker game. National epics are political and make no claim to scientific accuracy nor subject to verification as I already explained.
Does any educated Hausa child believe in a Sarki snake or Bayajida siring the entire Hausa people?
No, really, this is a sucker non-debate unworthy of my time.
Spout your Arab enthusiast nonsense to any sucker who takes you seriously.
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Your ignorance of genetics is embarassing yourself.
I never claimed to be a geneticist, but I do know that the expert geneticists say that R1b1a V88 is from the Near East. And I believe them. You are free to believe what you want. I also know that the Hausa, who are R1b1a V88, say that they are from the Near East and I believe them. You are free to believe what you want. You can sit here and claim that the experts don't say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia, but it doesn't change the fact that the experts say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. I'm not sure what you are out to prove, but I don't have time to argue back and forth with you about something that the experts have already said. Argue with the experts who say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. Don't argue with me. Argue with the Hausa elders who say that their tradition says that they are from the Near East. Don't argue with me. I believe the experts in genetics and I believe the Hausa tradition. Do you have a problem with that? [/QB]
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Not that anyone could mistake you for one, that's for sure.
quote:
but I do know that the expert geneticists say that R1b1a V88 is from the Near East.
...which is why it is rare to absent there?
quote: And I believe them. You are free to believe what you want. I also know that the Hausa, who are R1b1a V88, say that they are from the Near East and I believe them.
Entertain me with Hausa legends that say this.
quote: You are free to believe what you want. You can sit here and claim that the experts don't say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia, but it doesn't change the fact that the experts say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. I'm not sure what you are out to prove, but I don't have time to argue back and forth with you about something that the experts have already said. Argue with the experts who say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. Don't argue with me. Argue with the Hausa elders who say that their tradition says that they are from the Near East. Don't argue with me. I believe the experts in genetics and I believe the Hausa tradition. Do you have a problem with that?
You constantly apply the term "experts" as though you are addressing Allah or Gods, and that the so-called "experts" are infallible. Do you think that these so-called "experts" are supernatural, make no errors, have no bias, and so forth?
If you are confident that your "experts" are unequivocally right, how come you never addressed my rebuttal to your "experts'" abstract?
That's right. For sure, I'm not a geneticist, but Spencer Wells, Cruciani et al are.
Do you really not know what Hausa traditions say about their origin? Read my book The Unknown Arabs.
And again, concerning what the experts say, why don't you debate them until YOU become the expert and people begin to quote YOU as an authority in the field. The experts say that R1b1a V88 is of West Asian origin and these experts know exactly where R1b1a V88 is found and at what percentages.
For example, Spencer Wells says that the Toubou are from the Middle East. Go and debate him and prove him wrong and show him that "you da man". Fast forward this to 4:30.
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
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quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry: Eur J Hum Genet. 2010 Aug;18(8):915-23. Epub 2010 Mar 17.
Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel.
Pereira L, Cerný V, Cerezo M, Silva NM, Hájek M, Vasíková A, Kujanová M, Brdicka R, Salas A.
Instituto de Patologia e Imunologia Molecular da Universidade do Porto (IPATIMUP), Porto, Portugal. Abstract
The Tuareg presently live in the Sahara and the Sahel. Their ancestors are commonly believed to be the Garamantes of the Libyan Fezzan, ever since it was suggested by authors of antiquity. Biological evidence, based on classical genetic markers, however, indicates kinship with the Beja of Eastern Sudan. Our study of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences and Y chromosome SNPs of three different southern Tuareg groups from Mali, Burkina Faso and the Republic of Niger reveals a West Eurasian-North African composition of their gene pool. The data show that certain genetic lineages could not have been introduced into this population earlier than approximately 9000 years ago whereas local expansions establish a minimal date at around 3000 years ago. Some of the mtDNA haplogroups observed in the Tuareg population were involved in the post-Last Glacial Maximum human expansion from Iberian refugia towards both Europe and North Africa. Interestingly, no Near Eastern mtDNA lineages connected with the Neolithic expansion have been observed in our population sample. On the other hand, the Y chromosome SNPs data show that the paternal lineages can very probably be traced to the Near Eastern Neolithic demic expansion towards North Africa, a period that is otherwise concordant with the above-mentioned mtDNA expansion. The time frame for the migration of the Tuareg towards the African Sahel belt overlaps that of early Holocene climatic changes across the Sahara (from the optimal greening approximately 10 000 YBP to the extant aridity beginning at approximately 6000 YBP) and the migrations of other African nomadic peoples in the area.
PMID: 20234393 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]PMCID: PMC2987384 [Available on 2011/8/1]
European Journal of Human Genetics advance online publication, 17 March 2010; doi:10.1038/ejhg.2010.21."
The article you site is simply the standard form of academic and eurocentric gibberish that has been put forward to establish a "Eurasian" origin for North African populations. The reality is that the lineages that these authors claim as Eurasian are actually African. Hence, their claim should be treated with skepticism. The fact remains that the Sahara has ALWAYS been populated by black African pastoral nomads since many thousands of years ago. These attempts to derive a Eurasian origin for such populations are simply attempts to downplay the African origins of such populations and to put them in a Eurasian one.
There are two key points here that must be reinforced and repeated.
1) The traditions and culture of Saharan pastoral Nomadism are not an import from Eurasia. The Tuareg are a more recent population of African nomads in the Sahara descended from these ancient African groups. However, they have been impacted by modern movements of other populations since then, both from within and without Africa.
2) Berber is a language. It is not a gene and it is not a phenotype. Berber languages do not originate in Eurasia or Arabia. No amount of citing distorted or inaccurate genetic studies will change this. This includes East African Beja Nomadic stock, Saharan Garamante/Libyan Stock and West African stock. And along with that there is a more coastal aboriginal African stock and lastly there is a Arab and Eurasian element. Obviously it is the African aboriginal stock that represents the a base population from which these people derive not the Eurasian stock.
All these articles are tantamount to saying that a handful of Eurasian women or a handful of Eurasian men among a bunch of black Africans makes them Eurasian, which is silly. But that is exactly what you have when you try and take a couple minor genetic lineages and ignore or distort the rest in order to claim a Eurasian origin for a population that is primarily African.
And the fact that the nomadic populations in places like Arabia, Syria, Jordan, Israel and Palestine include blacks only reinforces the point about migration and movement being a two way street. You will find also Berber looking nomads in many of these places, but that does not make them Berber, because again Berber is a language and culture. The similarities in looks only reflects the fact that such populations have been mingling and therefore share some features in common along with a common lifestyle.
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Then I take it that you are an infidel, and not a Muslim, as your Allah is not the one and almighty after all, according to you.
quote:
Do you really not know what Hausa traditions say about their origin? Read my book The Unknown Arabs.
I don't care to read your book. Answer me here and now, if you can.
quote: And again, concerning what the experts say, why don't you debate them until YOU become the expert
How do you know I don't debate them? Another option, invite them to come and debate here. Even better, why can't you hold on your own, even with material from the so-called "experts"?
quote: The experts say that R1b1a V88 is of West Asian origin
This is a figment of your imagination, and I have proven it, with your lack of feedback to explain why they are very rare to absent in "West Asia".
quote: and these experts know exactly where R1b1a V88 is found and at what percentages.
And you don't, even though you cite them?
quote: For example, Spencer Wells says that the Toubou are from the Middle East.
On what grounds?
quote: Go and debate him and prove him wrong and show him that "you da man".
I got the news from you, not Wells; why don't you explain what you understand, and how you intend to defend them, and if you need Mr. Wells to hold your hand in a debate on the issue, feel free to invite him.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote: We suggest that R-V88 is a paternal genetic record of the proposed mid-Holocene migration of proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers through the Central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin,
Nothing about Arabs there Mr. Berry.
Where does what you just quoted say that it isn't from the Near East??? Did he say this or not:
"Although human Y chromosomes belonging to haplogroup R1b are quite rare in Africa, being found mainly in Asia and Europe, a group of chromosomes within the paragroup R-P25* are found concentrated in the central-western part of the African continent, where they can be detected at frequencies as high as 95%. Phylogenetic evidence and coalescence time estimates suggest that R-P25* chromosomes (or their phylogenetic ancestor) may have been carried to Africa by an Asia-to-Africa back migration in prehistoric times. Here, we describe six new mutations that define the relationships among the African R-P25* Y chromosomes and between these African chromosomes and earlier reported R-P25 Eurasian sub-lineages. The incorporation of these new mutations into a phylogeny of the R1b haplogroup led to the identification of a new clade (R1b1a or R-V88) encompassing all the African R-P25* and about half of the few European/west Asian R-P25* chromosomes."
Then I take it that you are an infidel, and not a Muslim, as your Allah is not the one and almighty after all, according to you.
quote:
Do you really not know what Hausa traditions say about their origin? Read my book The Unknown Arabs.
I don't care to read your book. Answer me here and now, if you can.
quote: And again, concerning what the experts say, why don't you debate them until YOU become the expert
How do you know I don't debate them? Another option, invite them to come and debate here. Even better, why can't you hold on your own, even with material from the so-called "experts"?
quote: The experts say that R1b1a V88 is of West Asian origin
This is a figment of your imagination, and I have proven it, with your lack of feedback to explain why they are very rare to absent in "West Asia".
quote: and these experts know exactly where R1b1a V88 is found and at what percentages.
And you don't, even though you cite them?
quote: For example, Spencer Wells says that the Toubou are from the Middle East.
On what grounds?
quote: Go and debate him and prove him wrong and show him that "you da man".
I got the news from you, not Wells; why don't you explain what you understand, and how you intend to defend them, and if you need Mr. Wells to hold your hand in a debate on the issue, feel free to invite him.
You have serious issues, dude. And btw, "That's right" means that's right I'm not a geneticist - fool! What does that have to do with the Oneness of Allah???
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awlaadberry, in light of your 1000th+ copy & paste of that abstract, what you do make of this:
About one third of the African R-V88 chromosomes carried mutation V69, which was not observed outside Africa. The large majority of R1b chromosomes from western Eurasia carried, as expected, the M269 mutation; only five R-V88 chromosomes were observed, three of which carried distinctive mutations (M18, V35, and V7). The rare R1b chromosomes observed in Asia were either R-M73 or R-M269. The R-P25* paragroup was only found in five subjects from Europe (3), western Asia (1), and eastern Asia (1) (Table 1).
This element was featured in my rebuttal to the abstract that you were too nervous to address.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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You can say that again: I have serious issues with you, specifically your incompetency and grotesquely false sense of shrewdness.
quote: And btw, "That's right" means that's right I'm not a geneticist - fool! What does that have to do with the Oneness of Allah???
You are the fool, for not understanding what you were asked, i.e. the supposed infallibility of your so-called "experts" and treating them like Gods.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Does any educated Hausa child believe in a Sarki snake or Bayajida siring the entire Hausa people?
So the ancestors of the Hausa are just uneducated, ignorant fools, right? No one has any sense unless he/she believes the BS you are barking, right?
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
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Kidster awlaadberry, we aren't getting any younger; your reaction to these:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
awlaadberry, explain these things to me:
1)Why is hg E far more diverse in Africa vs. Arabia?
2)Why are the major clades of YAP+ [hg E and hg D] diverse in two different areas, that is NOT Arabia? Why is hg D in east Asia instead of Arabia?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: awlaadberry, in light of your 1000th+ copy & paste of that abstract, what you do make of this:
About one third of the African R-V88 chromosomes carried mutation V69, which was not observed outside Africa. The large majority of R1b chromosomes from western Eurasia carried, as expected, the M269 mutation; only five R-V88 chromosomes were observed, three of which carried distinctive mutations (M18, V35, and V7). The rare R1b chromosomes observed in Asia were either R-M73 or R-M269. The R-P25* paragroup was only found in five subjects from Europe (3), western Asia (1), and eastern Asia (1) (Table 1).
This element was featured in my rebuttal to the abstract that you were too nervous to address.
Your rebuttal means nothing to me and I've shown you what the experts say about your rebuttal. I'm out... No time for this posturing.
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awlaadberry, in light of your 1000th+ copy & paste of that abstract, what you do make of this:
About one third of the African R-V88 chromosomes carried mutation V69, which was not observed outside Africa. The large majority of R1b chromosomes from western Eurasia carried, as expected, the M269 mutation; only five R-V88 chromosomes were observed, three of which carried distinctive mutations (M18, V35, and V7). The rare R1b chromosomes observed in Asia were either R-M73 or R-M269. The R-P25* paragroup was only found in five subjects from Europe (3), western Asia (1), and eastern Asia (1) (Table 1).
This element was featured in my rebuttal to the abstract that you were too nervous to address.
Your rebuttal means nothing to me
dumbass, the piece you are looking at comes from the authors you were citing. I also mentioned the fact in my rebuttal which you were too much of a wuss to confront. What do you make of what your own source is saying here, moron?
quote:
and I've shown you what the experts say about your rebuttal. I'm out... No time for this posturing.
You never answered my queries on the identities of these "experts" and what they supposedly did to discredit me. Do you really feel empowered by this weak showing?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
Now, observe awlaadberry go into the M.I.A. mode and scramble for hiding, only to come back later and act like these matters were addressed and forgotten.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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BTW awlaadberry, where do you suppose the non-P25 Fulani R chromosomes come from, as they are not found in "west Asia" or Europe? Make the answer to this, and the following, your priority when you sign in back here, LOL:
Kidster awlaadberry, we aren't getting any younger; your reaction to these:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
awlaadberry, explain these things to me:
1)Why is hg E far more diverse in Africa vs. Arabia?
2)Why are the major clades of YAP+ [hg E and hg D] diverse in two different areas, that is NOT Arabia? Why is hg D in east Asia instead of Arabia?
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: To supplement DougM, even when certain African strains are unavoidable to admit the standard Eurocentric set of explanations are made for them.
Deep into the roots of the Libyan Tuareg: A genetic survey of their paternal heritage
Bottomline: both studies show African E-M81 predominates.
The funny thing is that even in these studies that ultimately support the OBVIOUS, you still have a bunch of double talk implying that somehow these aren't really Africans. Hence:
quote: Recent genetic studies of the Tuareg have begun to uncover the origin of this semi-nomadic northwest African people and their relationship with African populations.
Duh. I am waiting for a study that tries to "uncover the origin of these Northeast/Northwest/SouthEast/Southwest (take your pick) European people and their relationship to Europeans" or "uncover the origin of these Northeast/Northwest/Southeast/Southwest Asian people and their relationship to Asians".....
It just sounds dumb and smacks of an a priori assumption that these "African populations" need to be shown to be related to "Other Africans" as if they can't be "real" Africans by simply being native to the geographic expanse of the African landmass.
And going back to what I said earlier about Bedouin and nomads, which is a Berber:
It is these relationships with nomadic populations that many European scholars try and play up as the basis of Berber language and culture but that is simply false. Those connections between nomadic populations in PARTS of North Africa and elsewhere does not mean that Berber language originated outside of Africa. These connections are simply a reflection of migrations that have taken place over the last few thousand years but are not the basis of Berber language or culture.
Posts: 8899 | Registered: May 2005
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1)Why is hg E far more diverse in Africa vs. Arabia?
2)Why are the major clades of YAP+ [hg E and hg D] diverse in two different areas, that is NOT Arabia? Why is hg D in east Asia instead of Arabia? [/QB]
posted
^ Interesting pictures Doug. Even the fair-skinned Bedouin have features that are east African suggesting admixture. Also, the Negev desert was known in Biblical times as the Land of Cushim (blacks) to the Hebrews and later Israelites.
Posts: 26311 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Djehuti wrote: --------------------------------------- Even the fair-skinned Bedouin have features that are east African suggesting admixture. ---------------------------------------
What are "east" African features?
And how does ones features mean they have admixture?
Folks, watch Puppy Chow run from the thread now.
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^ Why do you always ask stupid questions. Those familiar with east African features know what I'm talking about. Plus I assume they have admixture due to their fair skin you idiot. Unless you now want to say fair-skin is indigenous to not only Arabia but Africa.
Watch the white Scottish idiot (Argay) posing as black person. Ask more dumb questions or make trollish remarks.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Why do you always ask stupid questions. Those familiar with east African features know what I'm talking about. Plus I assume they have admixture due to their fair skin you idiot. Unless you now want to say fair-skin is indigenous to not only Arabia but Africa.
Watch the white Scottish idiot (Argay) posing as black person. Ask more dumb questions or make trollish remarks.
It is these dark bedouin types that Awladberry is claiming are the ancestors of the Tuareg.
Sorry, no they are not. The physical relationships between these populations are ancient and predate Islam in the sense you are talking about an aboriginal strain of African phenotypes that left Africa and moved around between these areas.
The movement of those people associated with the origin of Berber languages were Africans not Arabs.
It is these dark bedouin types that Awladberry is claiming are the ancestors of the Tuareg.
Sorry, no they are not. The physical relationships between these populations are ancient and predate Islam in the sense you are talking about an aboriginal strain of African phenotypes that left Africa and moved around between these areas.
The movement of those people associated with the origin of Berber languages were Africans not Arabs.
Not that anyone could mistake you for one, that's for sure.
quote:
but I do know that the expert geneticists say that R1b1a V88 is from the Near East.
...which is why it is rare to absent there?
quote: And I believe them. You are free to believe what you want. I also know that the Hausa, who are R1b1a V88, say that they are from the Near East and I believe them.
Entertain me with Hausa legends that say this.
quote: You are free to believe what you want. You can sit here and claim that the experts don't say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia, but it doesn't change the fact that the experts say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. I'm not sure what you are out to prove, but I don't have time to argue back and forth with you about something that the experts have already said. Argue with the experts who say that R1b1a V88 is from West Asia. Don't argue with me. Argue with the Hausa elders who say that their tradition says that they are from the Near East. Don't argue with me. I believe the experts in genetics and I believe the Hausa tradition. Do you have a problem with that?
You constantly apply the term "experts" as though you are addressing Allah or Gods, and that the so-called "experts" are infallible. Do you think that these so-called "experts" are supernatural, make no errors, have no bias, and so forth?
If you are confident that your "experts" are unequivocally right, how come you never addressed my rebuttal to your "experts'" abstract?
That's right. For sure, I'm not a geneticist, but Spencer Wells, Cruciani et al are.
Do you really not know what Hausa traditions say about their origin? Read my book The Unknown Arabs.
And again, concerning what the experts say, why don't you debate them until YOU become the expert and people begin to quote YOU as an authority in the field. The experts say that R1b1a V88 is of West Asian origin and these experts know exactly where R1b1a V88 is found and at what percentages.
For example, Spencer Wells says that the Toubou are from the Middle East. Go and debate him and prove him wrong and show him that "you da man". Fast forward this to 4:30.
Awlaad
What you say is true. The Hausas claim to come from Arabia. Genetically some are related with Yemenis. Anyone arguing this point is just being mischeivious.
Lion!
Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Interesting pictures Doug. Even the fair-skinned Bedouin have features that are east African suggesting admixture. Also, the Negev desert was known in Biblical times as the Land of Cushim (blacks) to the Hebrews and later Israelites.
What is he babbling?
Fair skinned Bedouins... admixure?
With who?
Filipinos? Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^... Plus I assume they have admixture due to their fair skin you idiot. Unless you now want to say fair-skin is indigenous to not only Arabia but Africa. .....
Yes Meri Mary Jayhooti
Fair skin is indigenous to Africa. Igbos, Fulanis, Khoi Khois, Amharas, Tamazights, are all indigenous Africans with very fair skin and no admixture... Albinos are born in Africa too? The defective MC1R genes do occur in Africa sometimes too. So what is your point?
What is wrong with you Mary?
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