quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry: Read this:
The Tuaregs
The Tuaregs are nomadic people and desert dwellers. The Tuareg are either Messufa, Lamtuna, or Judaala, who traced their ancestry back to the Sanhaja. The Sanhaja traced their lineage back to the Himyar who are people of Southern Arabia. They, however, lived among the Berbers before crossing the Sahara and settling in West Africa. They are the founders of the city of Timbuktu. They contributed scholarly and commercially to the legacy of Timbuktu. Today, the Tuareg live in Mali and Niger.
Here's the translation of the article that started this topic:
The Tuaregs Reject the Claims of the World Amazigh (Berber) Congress
We, at the website Rif Today, received a letter from Mr. Mansour Mohamed Ali Ag Hudyata as President of an association in Mali called The Northern Youth of Mali Association. The letter rejects the claims of the World Amazigh (Berber) Congress that the Tuareg people are Berbers. The following is the text of the letter as we received it:
Indeed the Northern Youth of Mali Association strongly rejects the lies that the World Amazigh (Berber) Congress is spreading through the media that the Tuaregs of Mali and Niger belong to the Amazigh (Berber) people. The Northern Youth of Mali Association confirms that these claims are lies which have no scientific basis and that Mr. Belqasim Lonis, who specializes in chemistry, has no background in history in order to prove the truth of this myth. Indeed all of the reliable history books confirm that the Tuareg are of Arab origin and that the Tuareg alphabet are related to Arabic writing and this is the Tuareg origin that has been known since time immemorial. We consider those false tales about the origin of the Tuareg meddling in the affairs of the Tuareg by clients working for others with connections with suspicious groups.
Consequently, we affirm strongly that we will not allow the hired World Amazigh (Berber) Congress, whom we have no connections with, to meddle in our affairs and to speak about our origin. And we confirm that we, the Tuareg people of Kidal, Gao, and Timbuktu, are proud of our nations (Mali and Niger) that we belong to and we are proud of our upright religion - Islam. And we declare that our goal is to attain security, stability, peace, and progress in the great Sahara for the happiness of our people and for all tribes of the great Sahara to live in harmony. This is the position of every Tuareg who struggles at all places and all times to achieve these goals.
Did you hear what he said about not meddling in the affairs of the Tuareg by making false claims about their origin? That applies to you, too.
Obviously a letter from someone who is not associated with a Kel or other known agency representing Tuareg identity, history or culture does not constitute anything that can be used on any grounds as proof of anything.
Legends and folk traditions are fine if they come from authentic sources. However, that does not change the fact that biological evidence is going to always have more weight in any historical analysis than folk traditions alone. That does not always mean they disagree, because sometimes they do.
There are various kels associated with the Tuareg spread among various regions in North Africa, some with more Arab blood than others. Some have more European blood than others. That does not mean that the Tuaregs as a whole originated in Europe or Arabia. They primarily derive from native Africans and then took on some mixture from these other groups in some cases.
Posts: 8900 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry: Read this:
The Tuaregs
The Tuaregs are nomadic people and desert dwellers. The Tuareg are either Messufa, Lamtuna, or Judaala, who traced their ancestry back to the Sanhaja. The Sanhaja traced their lineage back to the Himyar who are people of Southern Arabia. They, however, lived among the Berbers before crossing the Sahara and settling in West Africa. They are the founders of the city of Timbuktu. They contributed scholarly and commercially to the legacy of Timbuktu. Today, the Tuareg live in Mali and Niger.
Here's the translation of the article that started this topic:
The Tuaregs Reject the Claims of the World Amazigh (Berber) Congress
We, at the website Rif Today, received a letter from Mr. Mansour Mohamed Ali Ag Hudyata as President of an association in Mali called The Northern Youth of Mali Association. The letter rejects the claims of the World Amazigh (Berber) Congress that the Tuareg people are Berbers. The following is the text of the letter as we received it:
Indeed the Northern Youth of Mali Association strongly rejects the lies that the World Amazigh (Berber) Congress is spreading through the media that the Tuaregs of Mali and Niger belong to the Amazigh (Berber) people. The Northern Youth of Mali Association confirms that these claims are lies which have no scientific basis and that Mr. Belqasim Lonis, who specializes in chemistry, has no background in history in order to prove the truth of this myth. Indeed all of the reliable history books confirm that the Tuareg are of Arab origin and that the Tuareg alphabet are related to Arabic writing and this is the Tuareg origin that has been known since time immemorial. We consider those false tales about the origin of the Tuareg meddling in the affairs of the Tuareg by clients working for others with connections with suspicious groups.
Consequently, we affirm strongly that we will not allow the hired World Amazigh (Berber) Congress, whom we have no connections with, to meddle in our affairs and to speak about our origin. And we confirm that we, the Tuareg people of Kidal, Gao, and Timbuktu, are proud of our nations (Mali and Niger) that we belong to and we are proud of our upright religion - Islam. And we declare that our goal is to attain security, stability, peace, and progress in the great Sahara for the happiness of our people and for all tribes of the great Sahara to live in harmony. This is the position of every Tuareg who struggles at all places and all times to achieve these goals.
Did you hear what he said about not meddling in the affairs of the Tuareg by making false claims about their origin? That applies to you, too.
Obviously a letter from someone who is not associated with a Kel or other known agency representing Tuareg identity, history or culture does not constitute anything that can be used on any grounds as proof of anything.
Legends and folk traditions are fine if they come from authentic sources. However, that does not change the fact that biological evidence is going to always have more weight in any historical analysis than folk traditions alone. That does not always mean they disagree, because sometimes they do.
There are various kels associated with the Tuareg spread among various regions in North Africa, some with more Arab blood than others. Some have more European blood than others. That does not mean that the Tuaregs as a whole originated in Europe or Arabia. They primarily derive from native Africans and then took on some mixture from these other groups in some cases.
Wow! Talk about pig-headedness!
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Leo Minor: I was referring to Haplogroup J Y-DNA in general. Go to Wikipedia and lookup Haplogroup J (Y-DNA)
Google a study called Deep into the roots of the Libyan Tuareg: A genetic survey of their paternal heritage
What of course via self definition or in a Pan-Arab sence does not mean that they are not Arabs.
Do you mean because their haplogroup is E and not J? As I've said many times, E is a very common haplogroup in Arabia. Why do you think their haplogroup must be J in order to be Arab - and I mean Arab by blood?
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posted
^^Leominor has no reason except that he crammed something about Haplogroup J from some website without a proper understanding of the concept he is dealing with.
-------------------- Lionz Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
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It's not really clear to me what you are saying, but let me just say this much to you. An Arab is a person descended from one of the following people:
*Qahtan *Adnan, who is a descendant of Ismael (pbuh) who is a descendant ot Faligh the brother of Qahtan *Aram *Abraham (pbuh) and his wife Keturah
Qahtan and Faligh are both descendants of Arfakshadh. Arfakshadh is the brother of Aram and they (Arfakshadh and Aram) are the sons of Sam the son of Noah (pbuh). These are the Arabs of history. Anyone not descended from these people is not an Arab whether he/she speaks Arabic or not. Anyone descended from these people is an Arab whether he/she is in the area you call "Africa" or anywhere else and no matter what language he/she speaks today. This is what an Arab is. Can you tell me what an "African" is??? [/QB]
An African is a person who comes from Africa. If you ask somebody where are they from and they say France do you question "what is a Frenchman"
If people identify with a location do they then have to have a particular lineage to particular people?
You say this is the case with Qahtan, Adnan, Aram and Abraham. Where did their ancestors come from?
For example Adnan only goes back to 122 BC, That's only 2,133 years ago
Qahtan probably somewhere between 3000 and 2000 BC That is 5,000 years ago at most.
So where did his ancestors come from? Did he pop out of nowhere? He had a father an mother where did they come from, grandmother etc? What about 6,000 years ago?
what about 9,000 years ago?
It is hypothesized that Africans were living in Africa thousands of years before Yemen/ Arabian peninsula had any human beings living there.
It is hypothesized that Qahtan's ancestors would have been Africans, meaning people who lived in African and then migrated to the Arabian peninsula.
Posts: 42954 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
IronLion Some one who makes foolish statements about Haplo R as a Arab marker or even that afro Americans are supposed to be Arabs has his own ideological issues. Tuaregs are Indigenous descendants of the Garamantes based on genetics what’s more to say? And if you think the Article on Wikipedia is flawed then contribute to the Article.
Posts: 51 | Registered: Feb 2010
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It's not really clear to me what you are saying, but let me just say this much to you. An Arab is a person descended from one of the following people:
*Qahtan *Adnan, who is a descendant of Ismael (pbuh) who is a descendant ot Faligh the brother of Qahtan *Aram *Abraham (pbuh) and his wife Keturah
Qahtan and Faligh are both descendants of Arfakshadh. Arfakshadh is the brother of Aram and they (Arfakshadh and Aram) are the sons of Sam the son of Noah (pbuh). These are the Arabs of history. Anyone not descended from these people is not an Arab whether he/she speaks Arabic or not. Anyone descended from these people is an Arab whether he/she is in the area you call "Africa" or anywhere else and no matter what language he/she speaks today. This is what an Arab is. Can you tell me what an "African" is???
An African is a person who comes from Africa. If you ask somebody where are they from and they say France do you question "what is a Frenchman"
If people identify with a location do they then have to have a particular lineage to particular people?
You say this is the case with Qahtan, Adnan, Aram and Abraham. Where did their ancestors come from?
For example Adnan only goes back to 122 BC, That's only 2,133 years ago
Qahtan probably somewhere between 3000 and 2000 BC That is 5,000 years ago at most.
So where did his ancestors come from? Did he pop out of nowhere? He had a father an mother where did they come from, grandmother etc? What about 6,000 years ago?
what about 9,000 years ago?
It is hypothesized that Africans were living in Africa thousands of years before Yemen/ Arabian peninsula had any human beings living there.
It is hypothesized that Qahtan's ancestors would have been Africans, meaning people who lived in African and then migrated to the Arabian peninsula. [/QB]
You are hilarious! Arabs don't use place-names for their genealogy. They use people. And why are you asking now about the origin of Qahtan? You asked me what an Arab is and I just told you. Where are you going now? Are you going to take us back to Noah (pbuh) or to Adam (pbuh) now? Where are you going with this???!!! Leave me alone Lioness. I don't understand you and you don't understand me.
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Leo Minor: IronLion Some one who makes foolish statements about Haplo R as a Arab marker or even that afro Americans are supposed to be Arabs has his own ideological issues. Tuaregs are Indigenous descendants of the Garamantes based on genetics what’s more to say? And if you think the Article on Wikipedia is flawed then contribute to the Article.
Leo Minor,
What is the true "Arab marker"?
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
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posted
Actually I am more interested in your opinion and why Afro-Americans are supposed to be Arabs? Correct me if I am wrong but I follow your interpretation of the word Arab. Afro-Americans or Tuaregs were originally stationed in today’s Yemen at some point in history and had there genealogical origin their.
Posts: 51 | Registered: Feb 2010
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quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry: You are hilarious! Arabs don't use place-names for their genealogy. They use people. And why are you asking now about the origin of Qahtan? You asked me what an Arab is and I just told you. Where are you going now? Are you going to take us back to Noah (pbuh) or to Adam (pbuh) now? Where are you going with this???!!!
To Africa where Africans and Arabs come from, for example, the ancestors of Qahtan
Posts: 42954 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry: You are hilarious! Arabs don't use place-names for their genealogy. They use people. And why are you asking now about the origin of Qahtan? You asked me what an Arab is and I just told you. Where are you going now? Are you going to take us back to Noah (pbuh) or to Adam (pbuh) now? Where are you going with this???!!!
To Africa where Africans and Arabs come from, for example, the ancestors of Qahtan
OK Lioness. I'll meet you there.
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lyingass trying to misconstrue:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Those familiar with east African features know what I'm talking about.
Okay?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Of course nose width is not valid factor of ethnic descent
And I never said otherwise. Genetics is far more valid and it proves that Africans are diverse and have very little admixture from outside in contrast to Southwest Asians and Europeans who have significant African mixture among them. Europeans alone carry 1/3 African lineages so maybe you are one of those demented whites who use the black ancestry to claim to be black. LOL
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Again, picture spamming is another weak argument technique
Unlike you I'm just posting pictures of Bedouins along with Doug. I'm not making any argument at all, idiot.
Posts: 26322 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry: Wow! Talk about pig-headedness!
Speak for yourself! We have told you many times that there is NO evidence whatsoever that the Berber descend from Arabs. That some groups claim descent from Himyarites is just fabricated ashraf genealogy for Islamic prestige. Berbers possess predominantly indigenous E lineages. What's more is that traditionally before Islam, the Berbers were matrilineal and many still are. That is the reason why the Tuareg kels have feminine names. It was only after conversion to Islam that the Tuareg men begin to create their own lineages and falsely claim them from Yemen.
Posts: 26322 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: It is these dark bedouin types that Awladberry is claiming are the ancestors of the Tuareg.
Sorry, no they are not. The physical relationships between these populations are ancient and predate Islam in the sense you are talking about an aboriginal strain of African phenotypes that left Africa and moved around between these areas.
The movement of those people associated with the origin of Berber languages were Africans not Arabs.
Indeed.
Notice the Berber man in the top and the Bedouin man in the bottom share the same features so Berry believes this is because the former descends from the latter but the fact is that they share common origins in Africa.
Posts: 26322 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: It is these dark bedouin types that Awladberry is claiming are the ancestors of the Tuareg.
Sorry, no they are not. The physical relationships between these populations are ancient and predate Islam in the sense you are talking about an aboriginal strain of African phenotypes that left Africa and moved around between these areas.
The movement of those people associated with the origin of Berber languages were Africans not Arabs.
Indeed.
Notice the Berber man in the top and the Bedouin man in the bottom share the same features so Berry believes this is because the former descends from the latter but the fact is that they share common origins in Africa.
Djehuti do you know anything about that bedouin man to say that he is from "Africa"? Based on what you made him from "Africa"?
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
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posted
^ Based on anthropological remains and genetics which show that not only the ancestors of the Arabs but the ancestors of Semitic speakers in general came from Africa and entered the Levant and Arabia during mesolithic times!
By African immigrants I don't mean recent immigrants. I understand there is a misconception that blacks in the Middle East are the result of recent migrations mainly slavery, but I'm talking about much ancient even prehistoric immigrations. The Levant and Arabia are right next to Africa so why is it so hard to believe that natives of that region have African ancestry. Look up the origins of Semitic and Afroasiatic languages.
Posts: 26322 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:quote from exhorror Must I teach you this basic sense? And no, Arabic is not an African language, though it does ultimately derive from an African language.
It is not African but ULTIMATELY derive from africa
quote:^ quote from djehuti and the blow fish Based on anthropological remains and genetics which show that not only the ancestors of the Arabs but the ancestors of Semitic speakers in general came from Africa and entered the Levant and Arabia during mesolithic times!
By African immigrants I don't mean recent immigrants. I understand there is a misconception that blacks in the Middle East are the result of recent migrations mainly slavery, but I'm talking about much ancient even prehistoric immigrations. The Levant and Arabia are right next to Africa so why is it so hard to believe that natives of that region have African ancestry. Look up the origins of Semitic and Afroasiatic languages.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote: It is said that from their home in Yemen, (the Tubba's) used to raid Ifriqiyah and the Berbers of the Maghrib. Afriqus b. Qays b. Sayfi, one of their great early kings who lived in the time of Moses or somewhat earlier, is said to have raided Ifriqiyah. He caused a great slaughter among the Berbers. He gave them the name Berbers when he heard their jargon and asked what that "barbarah" was. This gave them the name which has remained with them since that time. When he left the Maghrib, he is said to have cncentrated some Himyar tribes there. They remained there and mixed with the native population. Their (descendents) are the Sinhajah and the Kutamah. This led at~Tabari, al~Jujani, al~Masudi, ibn al~Kalbi, and al~Bayhaqi to make the statement that the Sinhaja and the Kutamah belong to the Himyar. The Berber genealogists do not admit this, and they are right.
... All this information is remote from the truth. It is rooted in baseless and erroneous assumptions. It is more like the fiction of storytellers. ... There is no way from Yemen to the Maghrib except via Suez. The distance between the Red Sea and the Mediterranean is two day's journey or less. It is unlikely that the distance could be traversed by a great ruler with a large army unless he controlled the region. This, as a rule, is impossible. In that region there were the Amalekites and Canaan in Syria... There is, however, no report that the Tubba's ever fought against one of these nations ... Furthermore the distance from the Yemen to the Maghrib is great, and an army requires much food and fodder. ... Again, it would be a most unlikely and impossible assumption that such an army could pass through all those nations without disturbing them, obtaining its provisions by peaceful negotiation. This shows that all such information (about Tubba' expeditions to the Maghrib) is silly or fictitious.
... Assertions to this effect should not be trusted; all such information should be invstigated and checked with sound norms. The result will be that it will most beautifully be demolished.
ibn Khaldun The Muqaddimah Oran, ~1377 Introduction I,14-16
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry: Djehuti do you know anything about that bedouin man to say that he is from "Africa"? Based on what you made him from "Africa"?
Do you really claim to know where they or you come from that long ago?
And r u really sure ????
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by arreubinsoni: It is not African but ULTIMATELY derive from africa
Yes Arreubinsoni. Arabic is derived from a central Arabian language which is in turn derived from Semitic which in turn is derived from proto-Afrasian which originated in AFRICA.
If you can't understand this simple fact, then sorry I can't help you.
While Arabia is often seen as separate from Africa and part of Asia, it can just as much be seen as an extension of Africa which geologically speaking it is. Why can't the same be said anthropologically or culturally?
Posts: 26322 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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While Arabia is often seen as separate from Africa and part of Asia, it can just as much be seen as an extension of Africa which geologically speaking it is. Why can't the same be said anthropologically or culturally? [/QB]
In other words Arabia and Egypt are one so the Egyptians are Arabs and Arabs are Egyptians.
dana, please cosign before Djehuti replies
Posts: 42954 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Mary wants to see Arabia as an extension of Africa, geologically and culturally, but refuses to extend this argument to Hebrew culture. It must be free from blacks...
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: [QUOTE]Originally posted by awlaadberry: [qb] Read this:
The Tuaregs
The Tuaregs are nomadic people and desert dwellers. The Tuareg are either Messufa, Lamtuna, or Judaala, who traced their ancestry back to the Sanhaja. The Sanhaja traced their lineage back to the Himyar who are people of Southern Arabia. They, however, lived among the Berbers before crossing the Sahara and settling in West Africa. They are the founders of the city of Timbuktu. They contributed scholarly and commercially to the legacy of Timbuktu. Today, the Tuareg live in Mali and Niger.
Here's the translation of the article that started this topic:
The Tuaregs Reject the Claims of the World Amazigh (Berber) Congress
We, at the website Rif Today, received a letter from Mr. Mansour Mohamed Ali Ag Hudyata as President of an association in Mali called The Northern Youth of Mali Association. The letter rejects the claims of the World Amazigh (Berber) Congress that the Tuareg people are Berbers. The following is the text of the letter as we received it:
Indeed the Northern Youth of Mali Association strongly rejects the lies that the World Amazigh (Berber) Congress is spreading through the media that the Tuaregs of Mali and Niger belong to the Amazigh (Berber) people. The Northern Youth of Mali Association confirms that these claims are lies which have no scientific basis and that Mr. Belqasim Lonis, who specializes in chemistry, has no background in history in order to prove the truth of this myth. Indeed all of the reliable history books confirm that the Tuareg are of Arab origin and that the Tuareg alphabet are related to Arabic writing and this is the Tuareg origin that has been known since time immemorial. We consider those false tales about the origin of the Tuareg meddling in the affairs of the Tuareg by clients working for others with connections with suspicious groups.
Consequently, we affirm strongly that we will not allow the hired World Amazigh (Berber) Congress, whom we have no connections with, to meddle in our affairs and to speak about our origin. And we confirm that we, the Tuareg people of Kidal, Gao, and Timbuktu, are proud of our nations (Mali and Niger) that we belong to and we are proud of our upright religion - Islam. And we declare that our goal is to attain security, stability, peace, and progress in the great Sahara for the happiness of our people and for all tribes of the great Sahara to live in harmony. This is the position of every Tuareg who struggles at all places and all times to achieve these goals.
Did you hear what he said about not meddling in the affairs of the Tuareg by making false claims about their origin? That applies to you, too.
Lol! This was bound to happen because there are so many people calling themselves Berber today who are actually speaking the ancient Tamashek or Tuareg dialects but are culturally and biologically more Euro-Mediterranean than Berber. I am so glad the Tuareg have been able to hold onto their true heritage.
As archeological and historical documentation testify they are among the many Africans who settled in the Yemen in the Neolithic who then headed westward in the early part of the 2nd millenium BC. advancing along coastal North Africa toward the Maghrib.
The first "race" of Berbers from the Arabian peninsula traditionally were the people of Masmuda, Nafish (Nafusa), Sanhaja and Ketama and other peoples claiming a "Canaanite" or "Philistine" origin in the Yemen. This was regarded as the 1st race of Berbers. These no doubt colonized other parts of the Mediterranean, the Levant/Syria and the Aegean in that time.
What the early Arab writers call "second race" of Sanhaja and Ketama (or Imakitan) were the Tuareg or Mazikes (Imoshagh), Ahaggaren (Hagar), Asben (Yashbin/Eshban) Nafish (Nafusa) or Zenata who are also an early pre-Islamic wave of Arabians who descended from peoples like the Makhuritae named after Makhir and Saif ibn Yazan. The Makhir or Makhar still live between Somalia and Central Arabian Yemamah.
Long before the 14th century Khaldun and othe non-Arab or ARabized writers earlier Arabic speakers like Yaqubi and Idrisi recognized the veiled Berbers or Tuareg as people stretching to Zeila in Somalia of Himyarite (Yemenite) descent.
In the time of Christ the ancient people in the town of Zeila were called Avalioi(Hevilah or Wa'il) mentioned as traders between Yemen and Zeila; Josephus said they were called Gaitules in "Libya" and the name of the tribe Gaitules or Jeddalah probably bears relatinship to the tribe of Jeddalah bin Wa'il of early south Arabia.
Himyarites or Sabaeans were African but from African progenitors of the early inhabitants of the Arabian peninsula. They and the Beja or Hadoram/Djurham (Hadorab) had since the earliest historical times lived on both sides of the Red Sea including as far north as Mecca under the rule of their chiefs or Tubbas. That is why the modern Kudha'a tribes still speaking Himyarite type dialects, the Mahra-Shahra, Bautuhara, etc. told colonialists that they had come in remote times from from Africa.
Palmer and other early colonialist explorers noted teh many of hte symbols of the Tifinagh are similar to that of the Sabaic.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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In other words Arabia and Egypt are one so the Egyptians are Arabs and Arabs are Egyptians.
dana, please cosign before Djehuti replies [/QB]
Modern Arabs are barely Arab and many modern Egyptians come from all over the place so NO. That's two strikes - one more and your out. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Mary wants to see Arabia as an extension of Africa, geologically and culturally, but refuses to extend this argument to Hebrew culture. It must be free from blacks...
Where has Djhuti said the Hebrews were free from blacks??
He makes it clear the idea of Hebrews coping Egyptian culture is false...
Did'nt you just say you never ever claimed the Hebrews copied the Egyptians....(But I know that beat Down I was giving you forced you to change your opinion huh..LOL)
So your Dumbass is in agreement with him, Right Dummy...
LMAO...
Fess up Bitch...Which is it??
(WTFs up with Faggot ass pic, what a Fag)
Posts: 8806 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Mary wants to make it "Asian" derived more so African. She claims/claimed the "majority" of influences came from Mesopotamia and Levant at the same time! She ascribes little to AE. Thats wanting it to be free from blacks in my view. Now her evolved view (but still trying to stick in Asia somewhere) is that it is an outgrowth of a "proto-Afrasian" ( ) religious complex which originated in Africa. Confused yet? lol
What I argue, a recap: Hebrew religion/culture, like Canaan/Phoenician, is clearly derived or heavily influenced by AE. This is not saying its the "same" or a blanket copy, or photocopy to use a modern example.
quote:Afrocentric Group think, No Room for individual thinking..
This is amazing coming form a Christian who insists that gospels aren't contradictory. Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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Basically, judging from the collection of Hebrew literature dubbed TN"K (Torah, Nebiiym, Kethubiym) the earliest theology like the cosmogyny is mostly "Mesopotamian" derived though not devoid of concepts in Egyptian cosmogyny, and after that the theology is partially Egyptian interlaced with self originating Hebrew theology with its very late components having some Persian influences. By the era of post-2nd Temple Judea, infusions from Roman thought are obvious in the Mishnah and baraitha compilations.
But this can be better analyzed in a thread of its own.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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She claims/claimed the "majority" of influences came from Mesopotamia and Levant at the same time!
So what alot of the O.T stuff did come from Mesopotamia?? As an atheist Christian Basher I would expect you to support this claim...LOL.
There was Egyptian Influence on certain parts but again the Egyptian Religion was far more secretive and contained to the Nile Valley.
She ascribes little to AE.
What Parts in particular?? From what I can tell HE claims the Hebrew culture was not an exact carbon copy like you USED to claim and like other Afrocentrics claim like Ashra Kwesi who claims all of the Bible is on the Walls of Egypt etc.
From what I gather you and him are on the same page, that there was Influence from the N.V but not a Carbon Copying..
Now her evolved view (but still trying to stick in Asia somewhere) is that it is an outgrowth of a "proto-Afrasian" ( [Roll Eyes] ) religious complex which originated in Africa. Confused yet? lol
Other than HIM using the Term Asian I don't see a problem with that as I see Judaism and Christianity as an outgrowth of African Culture as well developed by the Black Jews from the B.C era to the 4th and 5th century as Revealed by me and Altakruri and the Villa Tornollia also in the Lachish Assyrian Reliefs.
Judaism and Christianity and Moshiach were and are black.
And Ethiopia is the last remnant of the Black Religion created by the Revolutionary Moshiach who shook up the Whole White-boy Roman Empire.
Hebrew religion/culture, like Canaan/Phoenician, is clearly derived or heavily influenced by AE. This is not saying its the "same" or a blanket copy, or photocopy to use a modern example LOL, I get it. You are pushing your own opinion, clearly Hebrew Culture developed its own concepts and also borrowed from Mesopotamia. I don't see this sort of B.S talk when it comes to Egypt "Borrowing" from Nubia..LOL.
This is amazing coming form a Christian who insists that gospels aren't contradictory. This coming from a clown who claims Xtianity and Judaism copied ancient egypt then switches up his Argument when challenged on Facts..LOL
Posts: 8806 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Its crazy watching Christians call the other Abrahamic faith, Islam, "anti-black" "anti-African". Fact is all three are ungrateful hypocritical copy-cats of Nile Valley concepts.
^^^^ Bitch STFU, LOL.
The only one who lied is your Cult leader Kwesi, OH WAIT...MY BAD he did'nt Lie, Just Plagerized...
It was Graves who lied.
Yeh, the anti-woman bashing, thats theirs. Israel had plenty respect for the Women if Israel, with Prophetess and Women of stature. Like Egypt the Culture of the Hebrews was inclined to Male Dominant. Wonder why Hatshepsut Made her likeness as that of a Man..LOL, Why were the Temple Preistess in Km.t "Virgins" and not the Men....
...Christ told the MEN who were to stone the Woman to death that Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Posts: 8806 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
I know you are really upset with Kwesi and Grave. Just calm down Jariboy, count to ten and chillax.
quote:Israel had plenty respect for the Women if Israel,
Yeh they "respect" women so much they saw them as introducing evil and thought goddess worship was the most sinful thing ever. Incline towards male dominate and extreme primitive tribal hatred for the female sex are two completely different things. OT is laced with sexism, only a fanatic such as yourself would seek to deny this.
And at least a woman Hatshepsut could rule...
quote:Basically, judging from the collection of Hebrew literature dubbed TN"K (Torah, Nebiiym, Kethubiym) the earliest theology like the cosmogyny is mostly "Mesopotamian" derived though not devoid of concepts in Egyptian cosmogyny, and after that the theology is partially Egyptian interlaced with self originating Hebrew theology with its very late components having some Persian influences. By the era of post-2nd Temple Judea, infusions from Roman thought are obvious in the Mishnah and baraitha compilations.
In terms of dominant influence I would def. go with AE. Their own account has the person associated with giving them one god and an organized religious complex was an Egyptian, the only image of their god they created (or claimed they created) was patterned off AE "ark". Can't escape these and other important Heb. concepts whatever other mythological influences there were from elsewhere. Also we like to forget that "Hebrews" can be seen as more or less disgruntled (anti-goddess worship) Canaanites who came up with their own thing. Their god "El" is one such indicator. Canaanite cosmology is also heavily influenced by AE.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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Yeh they "respect" women so much they saw them as introducing evil This is a common Atheist misconception, both the Man(Adam) and Woman were both responsible, Hell Adam even lied when confronted....as a matter of fact in Modern Christian circles Adam is blamed for original Sin.
thought goddess worship was the most sinful thing ever. They thought the worship of any other God besides Ayhyah was the Most Sinful theing be the diety Male or Female..LOL.
Dasein, Dasein, Dasein
Your Circular reasoning and bias is entertaining.
OT is laced with sexism, only a fanatic such as yourself would seek to deny this.
And at least a woman Hatshepsut could rule
Yeah 3 in like what 3,000 year history as opposed to Israel's Few Hundred years in existance as a Monarchy.
Like I said Israel had plenty respect for the Women of Israel.
Im sure the same instances of Sexism in Israel was present in Km.t too
On a side note to anyone...
Were everyday Women allowed into the Temples in Km.t??
Posts: 8806 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Actually the two contradictory (that word again ) genesis stories reveal an early matriarchal and patriarchal split in Heb. thinking towards women. The patriarchal stream, that has woman created after man, seems to have won out given the fact that Israelites were so hostile to women. They thought the worship of any other god was sinful but they had particular hatred for goddess worship which, based on OT, the Israelites were particularly prone to.
The rest of your post is desperate attempt to equate patriarchal Hebs. with matriarchal AEs. How much of an ignoramus can you be. lol
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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Actually the two contradictory (that word again ) genesis stories reveal an early matriarchal and patriarchal split in Heb. thinking towards women. The patriarchal stream, that has woman created after man, seems to have won out given the fact that Israelites were so hostile to women. They thought the worship of any other god was sinful but they had particular hatred for goddess worship which, based on OT, the Israelites were particularly prone to.
The rest of your post is desperate attempt to equate patriarchal Hebs. with matriarchal AEs. How much of an ignoramus can you be. lol
This is simply your opinion nothing more nothing less,
But I gotta admit you are different than others I've defeated, you got spunk and you're good at Spin Tactics when backed into a corner, but like every sick and Mange infested Dog backed into a corner, You have failed, You Lose...
you are nothing but a deserate Atheist German Jamaican..LOL. Ancient Egypt had nothing to do with you white Gotha Germans, Stop trying to claim Km.t go back to Goth-land Dasein.
Posts: 8806 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Actually the two contradictory (that word again ) genesis stories reveal an early matriarchal and patriarchal split in Heb. thinking towards women. The patriarchal stream, that has woman created after man, seems to have won out given the fact that Israelites were so hostile to women. They thought the worship of any other god was sinful but they had particular hatred for goddess worship which, based on OT, the Israelites were particularly prone to.
The rest of your post is desperate attempt to equate patriarchal Hebs. with matriarchal AEs. How much of an ignoramus can you be. lol
This is simply your opinion nothing more nothing less,
Yes, its all my "opinion" that the AEs were matriarchal while ancient Israelites were patriarchal and that there are two contradictory creation myths in the book of genesis. LOL!
Yeh carbon copy concepts: one god, ark, mythical significance of number seven, four, the snake and staff symbol, savior god, trinity etc
Seeing the divine as exclusively male, hatred for women and anti-goddess (and "images" which is also a contradiction on their part...that word again )worship as well as seeing all "others" as equal to "devil worship", that part is them. Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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Actually the two contradictory (that word again ) genesis stories reveal an early matriarchal and patriarchal split in Heb. thinking towards women. The patriarchal stream, that has woman created after man, seems to have won out given the fact that Israelites were so hostile to women. They thought the worship of any other god was sinful but they had particular hatred for goddess worship which, based on OT, the Israelites were particularly prone to.
The rest of your post is desperate attempt to equate patriarchal Hebs. with matriarchal AEs. How much of an ignoramus can you be. lol
This is simply your opinion nothing more nothing less,
Yes, its all my "opinion" that the AEs were matriarchal while ancient Israelites were patriarchal and that there are two contradictory creation myths in the book of genesis. LOL!
LOL, Your whole Contradicting Creation Myth non sense in nothing to me as the Creation myth was a Parable and a Myth in the First place..LOL.
Keep at it though Dasein, maybe one day you might tan your White German Skin and become an A. Egyptian...LOL.
^^^^^ The Portrait of Dasein the German A. Egyptian...LOL
Posts: 8806 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Your whole Contradicting Creation Myth non sense in nothing to me as the Creation myth was a Parable and a Myth in the First place
So do you dismiss the virgin (i.e. no sexual union) birth, miracles, death and resurrection of your god too?
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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Do you reject your Cult Leader ashra Kwesi's Plagerized theory on Xtianity and Judaism??
Your Dying Bleats entertain me German-Boy Dasein...
Keep hitting that Tanning Salon Gotha-Goth.
Posts: 8806 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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The white-boy who gave ashra Kwesi a career, without him Kwesi would be talking about Allah and Islam was "Da Black Mans Religion" and would be marching around the Dome of the Rock Rather than an Egyptian Temple...LOL.
Dasein the Mangey German Sheppard Mutt!!!!
His Magesty made a Great Slaughter among them!!!
Posts: 8806 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
So the first part of "the book" was myth but the last part is the real deal? I want to know what you think. Why are you running oh conquering one?
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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She ascribes little to AE. Thats wanting it to be free from blacks in my view. Now her evolved view (but still trying to stick in Asia somewhere) is that it is an outgrowth of a "proto-Afrasian" ( ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
) religious complex which originated in Africa. Confused yet? lol
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