This is topic Fulani, ancestry and admixture? in forum Deshret at EgyptSearch Forums.


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Posted by PrideandJust (Member # 17431) on :
 
Here's what the study says about the Fulani's ancestry:

"Although sampled in Nigeria, the very distinct Fulani are part of a nomadic pastoralist population that occupies a broad geographical range across Central and Western Africa. Analyses of microsatellite and insertion/deletion polymorphisms indicate that they share ancestry with Niger-Kordofanian, North African, and Central African Nilo-Saharan populations, as well as low levels of European and/or Middle Eastern ancestry."

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/12/the-mtdna-of-fulani-nomads/

"HMost of the haplotypes belong to haplogroups of West African origin, such as L1b, L3b, L3d, L2b, L2c, and L2d (79.6% in total), which are all well represented in each of the four geographically separated samples. The haplogroups of Western Eurasian origin, such as J1b, U5, H, and V, were also detected but in rather low frequencies (8.1% in total)."

Hassan et al (2008) tested 26 Fulani Y-Chromosomes and over 1/2 had Eurasian Caucasoid Y-DNA.

Tishkoff (2009)


"When two clusters are assumed in the STRUCTURE analysis (K = 2), individuals can primarily be assigned to African (orange) or non-African (blue) clusters"

Fulani also don't consider themselves Black. They are against mixing with Negroid populations around them, calling them "hyenas, apes, and asses" (Dupire 1962) and intermarriage is considered "eating the fruit of the bitter black plum tree" (Stenning 1959)
 

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Posted by PrideandJust (Member # 17431) on :
 
The following is based on these excellent anthropological studies.

The Fulani consist of a few million people speaking dialects of the Fulfulde language, and are spread across several countries of North-West Africa. Traditionally they were nomadic cattle herders, moving around the grasslands of the savannah south of the Sahara. Over the past few hundred years many Fulani have settled down as farmers and intermarried with other peoples of the region. But some Fulani remain as nomads, and the Wodaabe [singular: Bodaado] are one of the largest tribes of these ‘pastoral’ Fulani. The Fulani, including the Wodaabe, are now at least nominally Muslims, though the Wodaabe have retained many of their pagan traditions.

From early times explorers and anthropologists have been intrigued by the appearance of the Fulani, which differs from that of the Negroid peoples around them. According to Stenning:

“The Fulani are not basically of Negro stock, although it is clear that through the centuries Fulani populations have interbred in various degrees with the Negro populations among whom they are dispersed...[the pastoral Fulani] retain non-Negroid physical characteristics to the greatest extent, speak the purest Fulfulde, and in general have been the least amenable to conversion to Islam...

The desirable physical qualities of a Fulani are a light colour, slight bone structure, straight hair, thin lips, and, above all, a long narrow nose...” (pp. 2-4 and 56; see also Dupire, pp. 1-10, but Dupire points out that only a minority of Wodaabe have all of these features).

These are obviously ‘Caucasian’ characteristics, and the natural explanation is that the Fulani have a partly Caucasian ancestry, either from East Africa (e.g. Ethiopean) or more likely from the North (e.g. Tuareg). The Fulani themselves believe they are related to the Tuaregs and Arabs. They despise the Black populations to their South, describing them as ‘hyenas, apes, and asses’ (Dupire, p. 322). Intermarriage with Blacks is deplored, and described as ‘eating the fruit of the bitter black plum tree’ (Stenning, p. 57). (Sorry, that’s not very PC, but don’t blame me, blame the Wodaabe!)

The social organisation of the Wodaabe is based on patrilineal (agnatic) lineages. The Wodaabe depend entirely on their cattle, feeding on their meat and milk, and trading for other commodities with the settled people around them. According to Stenning, ‘The traditional aim of a Bodaado elder was, and still is, to pass on more cattle to more sons than his father was able to do’ (p.46).

Marriage practices reflect these interests. A man may have up to four wives. A man with more cattle can marry and keep more wives. If he loses cattle, his wives may divorce or desert him. Divorce by both men and women is relatively easy, though compensation may be required.

There are two main forms of marriage. The most prestigious form is by betrothal (kooggal). In kooggal marriage the boy and girl are betrothed as children and marry when the girl reaches puberty. The marriages are arranged by their paternal relatives. Various exchanges of cattle and gifts are required. To keep cattle within the lineage, there is a strong preference for betrothal between close patrilineal relatives, often cousins. The great majority of first marriages are by kooggal.

Subsequent marriages, by people who are divorced or widowed (or by men acquiring an extra wife) are usually by contract (teegal). In contrast to kooggal marriage, teegal marriage is usually between lineages not closely related (or between Wodaabe and non-Wodaabe). In principle, teegal involves an element of hostility (the wife is regarded as being ‘stolen’), so it is not thought desirable among closely related lineages.

So where, if anywhere, does the gere wol dance come into this?

The gere wol is a ceremony involving two unrelated maximal lineages (clans). At irregular intervals the elders of a clan will decide ‘time for a gere wol’, and choose another clan to visit, the choice depending on how long since they last met, whether there is a duty to reciprocate, and so on. Clan leaders will then take the young men (above puberty but not yet heads of families) on a visit. The ceremony itself is described thus by Stenning:

“Gerewol... is a dance before the elders: youths dressed in their finery... dance to a slow stamping rhythm unaccompanied by drums, while praising in song the charms of the maidens [of the other clan]. In this way the girls are graded in an order of beauty. Meanwhile the maidens, who dance in a circle nearby, choose the most handsome and best-dressed youth and point him out by oblique references in song. This goes on until three or four of the best-looking youths and maidens have been paired. At the hirde [evening] gathering which now takes place, the couples are expected to spend the evening together, the rest of the dancers pairing off as they may.

“Although the gerewol is connected with courtship it does not regulate or determine betrothal and first marriage, which have been decided on, often some years previously, by the parents or guardians of the partners. Gerewol has the effect of ranging the youths and maidens of a particular age group into a generally recognized order of physical desirability by which the status of a young man or woman in that age group is assessed. But after marriage this status is unimportant, for that of men - and in reciprocal terms that of women - is measured by the number of cattle and children they possess.” (Stenning p. 157; see also the more elaborate account in Dupire, pp. 312-19).

From this description it is clear that gere wol can have at most a marginal effect on the reproductive success of Wodaabe men. It does not affect the normal course of marriage arrangements, and the selection of the most handsome men in itself has little impact, since they get only one partner for the evening. (It is all rather reminiscent of the Senior Prom in an American high school, as portrayed in countless teen dramas!) This is not to say that the gere wol meetings have no effect at all. According to Dupire, they provide opportunities for flirtation and adulterous affairs, which may lead to divorces and sometimes to teegal marriages between members of the unrelated clans. But there seems to be no basis for Miller’s claim that sexual selection at the gere wol is responsible for the distinctive physical appearance of the Wodaabe.

This is more simply explained by their mixture of Caucasian and Negroid ancestry. The gere wol may however have some indirect influence by reinforcing Wodaabe conceptions of beauty, which emphasise precisely those aspects of Fulani appearance, such as a narrow nose, which differentiate them from the neighbouring Negro populations.

The gere wol would therefore help to perpetuate the Wodaabe preference for mating among themselves, and prevent or delay their merging into the surrounding gene pool.

http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/002034.html
 

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Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
 
The above comments are just proof of how racially-minded have been Western anthropologists in Africa. I know the Peul people very well. The idea that the Peul do not consider themselves "black" is just absurd. The Peul are black using any definition of black. And in places like Guinea, the Peul(the majority ethnic group) have intermarried extensively with other groups such as the Malinke and Sussu. In terms of the genealogy of the Peul the research that they are essentially West African--as their language demonstrates--is correct and resemble other Savannah area Africans in terms of the complexity of their genome. Compare the Peul with the Dogon and their non-West African variations on their genomic profile.

For those who don't know here are 3 examples of Peuls who have been known internationally. Recall Amadu Diallo--the man who was killed in a hail of bullets by NY police some years ago. Abdoulaye Wade, President of Senegal is Peul but of the Tucoleur branch. And Yar Adua, the ill President of Nigeria is also Peul.

Western anthropologists have spent much research ink commenting on the phenotype of the Peul but there is less to their observations than meets the eye. In parts of West Africa their complexion varies quite a lot from brown/fair to very dark. The hair type also varies with the modal type being slightly less than fully kinky. With reference to two of the phenotypical traits that Western anthropologists love to obsess about--prognathism, labial indices, and nasal indices--the Peul in general are just moderate in this regard.

Given the fact that the Peul are not in any way markedly different from other groups where they live in West Africa, I want to believe that the present Peul self conception derives the way in which they were psychologically manipulated during the colonial era.
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
lamin - I am surprised that you responded to Doctor Scientis nonsense troll thread.

I see that he has just changed to the Pride screen name - Damn White people are stupid!

But anyway, this is all about haplogroup R1. That is supposed to the the definitive White haplogroup, problem is, here it is that all of these Black people have it also.

So now you have all of these White idiots trying desperately to come up with explanations of how Blacks happen to have White haplogroups. Some of the really stupid, have even suggested that the Fulani may have White ancestors who moved back to Africa.

Of course common sense tells you that because Black Africans are many times OLDER than Whites, R1 is a Black haplogroup which SOME Whites share.

But as is typical with the White man, you can't tell if he is really that stupid, or if he is just telling a big lie to cover up what it really means.

Which is of course that those Whites who carry R1 are Fulani Albinos who were part of the Out of Africa migrations, circa 55,000 B.C.
 

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Posted by Doctoris Scientia (Member # 17454) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:
lamin - I am surprised that you responded to Doctor Scientis nonsense troll thread.

I see that he has just changed to the Pride screen name - Damn White people are stupid!

But anyway, this is all about haplogroup R1. That is supposed to the the definitive White haplogroup, problem is, here it is that all of these Black people have it also.

So now you have all of these White idiots trying desperately to come up with explanations of how Blacks happen to have White haplogroups. Some of the really stupid, have even suggested that the Fulani may have White ancestors who moved back to Africa.

Of course common sense tells you that because Black Africans are many times OLDER than Whites, R1 is a Black haplogroup which SOME Whites share.

But as is typical with the White man, you can't tell if he is really that stupid, or if he is just telling a big lie to cover up what it really means.

Which is of course that those Whites who carry R1 are Fulani Albinos who were part of the Out of Africa migrations, circa 55,000 B.C.

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quote:

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Originally posted by lamin:
But King, the so-called genocides in Rwanda and Sudan are highly exaggerated by the white media. Even after 16 years of what happened in Rwanda, the white press still keeps at it--while coddling the Tutsi dictator, Kagame.

Note the following and refute if you don't agree: the Tutsis were at most 10% of Rwanda's 6.5 million in 1994, Today they are 15% of Rwanda's 8.8 million population. If "800,000 mostly Tutsis" were killed in just 90 days in 1994 by Hutu militia, explain the present numbers and explain why the Hutus lost the war then fled to Congo in the aftermath.

Darfur was essentially a Jewish/Israeli fueled attack on Islamist strongman Bachir. Many people were displaced and killed but hardly the 300,000 that the white media loves to shout about.

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Maan u is getting just too wise!
 

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Posted by the lion (Member # 17353) on :
 


 

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Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
 
King,
You are right on Bachir, but for the West(including Israel) it's not whether he is a good or bad leader for the Sudanese people but whether he is obstructing them in their goals in terms of what they want. If you obstruct them in any significant way then watch out for the "rogue state" label.
 

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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
lamin

TRUTH.

America and some times Isreal they really try and push their agenda on countries they claim as terrorist states.

Why I feel for Sudan, and let me just say that I hope the south does not seperate. I see these "Arabs" in Sudan as people who will kill their own people in the south, just to be associated to other Arab countries and less the fact that not much seperates them from their Kin from the south.

I thought things was changing in the Sudan with these "Arabs" when I read a article that claimed they stopped building a dam over the rest of the Nubians homeland, yet one poster laughed like that was not true, I was hoping this poster would show me something that refuted that but I am still waiting. While I wait, I will try and find the article I read that claimed the Sudanese government was not building a dam over the rest of Nubian countries.

Peace
 

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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Well All I could find was this Article from Nubian-Forum that says the Sudanese "Arabs" changed their minds on building a dam over Nubian Lands. Maybe their is hope for these "Arabs" still. Really though why would you destroy your own Heritage? As much as sudans "Arabs" think so lowly of themselves they really should realize that they are related to the Nubians and are really arabized. Moving on.

Read and Learn:
Written by Louis Werner
Photographed by Michael Nelson

The region of Upper Nubia in Sudan, lying between the Nile’s Second Cataract near the Egyptian border and the river’s distinctive S-bend some 350 kilometers (200 mi) to the south, is a land where the clock ticks to non-Arab time. Within Upper Nubia, north of the Third Cataract near Kerma, where the Mahas district begins and the asphalt and electricity end, Nubian villagers maintain their linguistic and cultural differences with great pride. To be Mahasi means to be a true Nubian, to speak a pure Nubian language and to live in the Nubian heartland.

But Mahas was recently spared a project whose benefits would surely have despoiled it, a project aimed dead center at the village of Kajbar at the Third Cataract and the Nubian fields and homesteads upstream. The government had planned a hydroelectric dam at Kajbar that would have flooded out tens of thousands of families and covered countless archeological sites in and around Kerma, the ancient Kushite capital. This, all agree, would have been a tragic reprise of the losses in Lower Nubia, on the Egyptian side of the border, with the building of the Aswan High Dam in the 1960’s. Luckily, the Kajbar dam never got past the blueprint stage. An international campaign publicized the threat and successfully petitioned the Sudanese government to reconsider. A dam now under construction at an alternative site, at the Fourth Cataract of the Nile near Karima, will displace fewer non-Nubian farmers and will not disturb the archeological sites at Napata and Jebel Barkal.

If the Kajbar dam had been built, perhaps its saddest casualty would have been not a site but a type: the Nubian house, a mud-walled, stand-alone family compound centered on a courtyard and surrounded by an extensive layout of men’s and women’s quarters. The Sudanese novelist Tayyib Salih has compared such a house, often built on heights above the flood plain, to “a ship that has cast anchor in mid-ocean.”


Above: Dried crocodile heads, one dried and one painted fish and geometric plaster-carving decorate the doorway and wall of a home in the village of West Sahel, near Abu Simbel in Egypt. In the courtyard of another home, top left, the wings of a dried pelican echo the arches behind it. Top right: The village of West Sahel hugs the bank of the Nile. Many of its residents, ethnic Nubians, were displaced during the building of the Aswan High Dam in the 1960’s.
Even more distinctive than the floor plan of a Nubian house is the decoration of its exterior doorway, or bawaba, which mixes vivid color, adobe brick filigree, figurative and geometric images in mud and white lime-plaster relief, and wall-mounted objects like ceramic plates, automobile headlights, mirrors, cow horns and dried crocodiles. While the full range of these decorative materials has shrunk in recent years, the impulse to draw attention to one’s home, and to its doorway as a symbol of the family, remains strong.

http://www.nubian-forum.com/vb/archive/index.php/t-1160.html

Peace
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Doctoris Scientia - Sorry for the mistake, I glanced at the avatar without reading the name and thought that it was you. With all of their name and avatar changes, Trolls do cause problems.
 

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Posted by Doctoris Scientia (Member # 17454) on :
 
^ OK, it's cool... I was a little bit confused, but what can you expect with all these fools runngin around this site.

Like I said anybody with something to say needs to post of Egypt Search Reloaded!
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
LOL This 'Pride' character is nothing more than a distgruntled white man greatly disturbed by the FACT that his white European people are mixed with on average one-third of them having black African ancestry, so in his solace he seeks blacks in Africa who have mixed-ancestry.

Too bad even the Fulani with their so-called "caucasoid" features are overwhelmingly of indigenous ancestry with populations in some areas having 100% homogeneity in African lineages as some have pointed out.
 

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Posted by Calabooz (Member # 18238) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:
lamin - I am surprised that you responded to Doctor Scientis nonsense troll thread.

I see that he has just changed to the Pride screen name - Damn White people are stupid!

But anyway, this is all about haplogroup R1. That is supposed to the the definitive White haplogroup, problem is, here it is that all of these Black people have it also.

So now you have all of these White idiots trying desperately to come up with explanations of how Blacks happen to have White haplogroups. Some of the really stupid, have even suggested that the Fulani may have White ancestors who moved back to Africa.

Of course common sense tells you that because Black Africans are many times OLDER than Whites, R1 is a Black haplogroup which SOME Whites share.

But as is typical with the White man, you can't tell if he is really that stupid, or if he is just telling a big lie to cover up what it really means.

Which is of course that those Whites who carry R1 are Fulani Albinos who were part of the Out of Africa migrations, circa 55,000 B.C.

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I think you are crazy
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
I see another outbreak of Fulani Madness has surfaced.
 

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Posted by NonProphet (Member # 17745) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by alTakruri:
I see another outbreak of Fulani Madness has surfaced.

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quote:

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Originally posted by alTakruri:
Can anyone share the rest of this?


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Reply to Winters: The origins of the Fulani remain unknown
Laura B. Scheinfeldt, Sameer Soi, and Sarah A. Tishkoff1

+ Author Affiliations
University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA 19104


We would like to first point out that we never interpreted any genetic data in our review article to support a Middle Eastern or European origin for the Fulani (1). We agree with Winters that the Fulani do not originate from the Middle East or Europe (2). Furthermore, we do not maintain that there is a predominance of Eurasian markers in the Fulani; we merely point out that there is some evidence of shared recent ancestry (i.e., gene flow) between the Fulani and Eurasian populations …

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"The Fulani ... AACs(Associated Ancestral Clusters), ... likely reflect Saharan African ..., ancestry ..., are closest to the non-African(Eurasian)AAC, consistent with an East African migration of modern humans out of Africa or a back-migration of non-Africans(Eurasians)into Saharan ... Africa."

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quote:

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Originally posted by NonProphet:

quote:

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Originally posted by alTakruri:
Can anyone share the rest of this?


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Reply to Winters: The origins of the Fulani remain unknown
Laura B. Scheinfeldt, Sameer Soi, and Sarah A. Tishkoff1

+ Author Affiliations
University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA 19104


We would like to first point out that we never interpreted any genetic data in our review article to support a Middle Eastern or European origin for the Fulani (1). We agree with Winters that the Fulani do not originate from the Middle East or Europe (2). Furthermore, we do not maintain that there is a predominance of Eurasian markers in the Fulani; we merely point out that there is some evidence of shared recent ancestry (i.e., gene flow) between the Fulani and Eurasian populations …

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Nothing I nor Tishkoff stated or quoted previously contradicts your post. Tishkoff discovered at least 15 distinct AAC groups and Africa has the greatest heterogeneity and admixture of any continent. In fact most world populations are admixed and the 'purest' groups are isolated hunter-gatherers like the Khoesan or Pygmies. This is the best evidence that Africans are NOT one race. Don't equate the scientific process with Clyde Winter's sociopolitical agenda.

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quote:

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Reply to Winters: The origins of the Fulani remain unknown
Laura B. Scheinfeldt, Sameer Soi, and Sarah A. Tishkoff1

+ Author Affiliations
University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA 19104


We would like to first point out that we never interpreted any genetic data in our review article to support a Middle Eastern or European origin for the Fulani (1). We agree with Winters that the Fulani do not originate from the Middle East or Europe (2). Furthermore, we do not maintain that there is a predominance of Eurasian markers in the Fulani; we merely point out that there is some evidence of shared recent ancestry (i.e., gene flow) between the Fulani and Eurasian populations …

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quote:

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Originally posted by KING:

Since Fulbe don't look like the majority of West Africans

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Not even knowing that Fulani are some of the oldest people to live in WA.

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quote:

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Originally posted by NonProphet:

Nothing I nor Tishkoff stated or quoted previously contradicts your post. Tishkoff discovered at least 15 distinct AAC groups and Africa has the greatest heterogeneity and admixture of any continent.

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Originally posted by KING:

The Explorer

I make my point by the Paintings on the stones that Show PreFulbe like the wodaabe in West Africa and North Africa.

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I have no pics to show but you know about those paintings since you have been on this forum from the Jump.

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Also Like I said Fulbe have narrow features like the Tuareg.

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As we know about the Tuareg, They originally came from East Africa(Linked with Beja) meanwhile the Fula have links mostly with West Africans. Most not all WA have broad features and fulani are the exception.

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Originally posted by KING:
alTakruri

Thanks for this Quote. I don't know where we can find the rest of the post, but if someone can find it, then that would be good.

Fulani madness is definetly what some people have, Since Fulbe don't look like the majority of West Africans they make up ANYTHING to seperate Fula from there West African Homelands. Not even knowing that Fulani are some of the oldest people to live in WA. Keep up the Good work.

Peace

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quote:

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Originally posted by alTakruri:
Can anyone share the rest of this?


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Reply to Winters: The origins of the Fulani remain unknown
Laura B. Scheinfeldt, Sameer Soi, and Sarah A. Tishkoff1

+ Author Affiliations
University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA 19104


We would like to first point out that we never interpreted any genetic data in our review article to support a Middle Eastern or European origin for the Fulani (1). We agree with Winters that the Fulani do not originate from the Middle East or Europe (2). Furthermore, we do not maintain that there is a predominance of Eurasian markers in the Fulani; we merely point out that there is some evidence of shared recent ancestry (i.e., gene flow) between the Fulani and Eurasian populations …

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quote:

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we merely point out that there
is some evidence of shared recent ancestry (i.e., gene flow) between
the Fulani and Eurasian populations based on the presence
of particular mtDNA (J1b, U5, H, and V)

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quote:

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(3) and NRY (RM173)

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(4) haplogroups, and the T-13910 European-specific
lactase persistence allele (5) in the Fulani.

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The combined linguistic
and genetic data, however, support an African origin for
the Fulani, as we discuss in our work (1).
We have pointed out that the maternal and paternal population
histories of the Fulani, as evidenced by the distribution
of mtDNA and NRY variation, are different from one another.

The pattern of mtDNA variation suggests a West African
Niger-Kordofanian origin for the Fulani (3), and the pattern of
NRY variation suggests the Fulani are more closely related to
Afroasiatic and Nilo-Saharan speakers in Africa (4). These
observations may reflect a sex-biased pattern of admixture in
the Fulani.

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quote:

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Furthermore, mitochondrial and NRY data represent only
a small portion of the whole genome and are particularly susceptible
to the effects of genetic drift

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, so we also discuss the
patterns of genome-wide autosomal variation in the Fulani.
Consistent with the distribution of NRY variation, the autosomal data demonstrate that the Fulani, who form a distinct population
cluster, are more closely related to Chadic- and Central Sudanicspeaking
African populations than to other Niger-Kordofanian
speakers, although they clearly have high levels of Niger-
Kordofanian ancestry and low levels of Eurasian ancestry (1, 6).
This pattern is unusual given that most of the African populations
included in our sample cluster by linguistic affinity (1).

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quote:

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There is not enough information to specifically locate a geographic
region of origin for the Fulani within Africa.

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quote:

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Originally posted by KING:

.Charlie Bass.

Atta Way Charlie, Study Man. I hope you have more studies to show the forum.

What I got from reading the rest of that study is that they make claims that Fula are not "Invaders" to WA but they can't really pin down there Origin within Africa.

What is Kinda confusing is when they say that mtDNA says they are linked to Niger-Kordofanian and the Paternal links them to Afro Asiatics. I guess when a Origin in Africa is not disputed, they then make claims that the Women are different from the Men just to muddy up the situation some more. Kind of like how they Break down E3b because it's found in Greeks(Trying to explain away why Greeks have African genes so they call E3b nonsense terms like e1b1b1b1b1b1 blah blah blah). I hope the fulani don't get broken down like E3b genes was broken down by scientists.

I will finish by thanking you for finding these studies and posting them on this forum. Do Dat Dey Charlie.

Peace

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King, I take it that your having time to write this piece, may be suggestive that you are unable to defend the matters I queried you on.

Unless demonstrated otherwise, I generally take graveyard silence to follow-up questions as somebody not trustworthy of their own claims, nothing more or less.
 

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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
The Explorer

Quote:
How does that make Fula some of the "oldest" West Africans?

I'm just going by the the Paintings that show a people that look like The Fula performing cermonies:



http://pulaarspeaking.net/whoarethefulani.aspx
^ In this website you will find a little more about the Rock Paintings that people claim look alot like Fulani People.

Also Sadly I could not find a website that had more of the Rock Paintings of the Fulanis.

Yes, I think I know what images you are referring to. I don't see how they suggest that the Fulani are some of the "oldest" western Africans though.

Why I think that the paintings show Fulas as being some of the oldest west Africans is because it was when the Sahara(If It's True) was fertile and not a desert.

What do you mean by "most" and likewise, by "broad features". What are you basing your understanding of these terms on?

I base it on the Pics I have seen of WA. I may be wrong in saying it but I just think that Most WA have a more Broad Features then Fulanis. Look at these Pics of Fulanis:






Now Compare to other WA:





Thats all I have to say about this for now. Hope it helped.

Peace
 

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Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
King,

The Saharan rock art post-dates the source populations of living western Africans, be it hgs E1b1a, E1 or A1. Furthermore, Fula language is a derivative that falls into the Atlantic branch of the Niger-Congo phylum. This means that the Fula came only after the source population of Niger-Congo speakers arrived in western Africa.

Posting photos selectively picked from the internet does not serve as either an unequivocal or objective perspective.

And even with the supposed posting of visual aids, your terms remain undefined as you understand them.
 

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Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
 

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With all due respect, Tishkoff et al. collect data like amateurs. How the heck does one merely rely on secondary source studies, ignore the contexts in which they were made, and expect not to remain in the dark? For instance, does the Cruciani et al.'s 2002 Burkina sample's predominantly E3a, or say that of Rosa et al.'s E3a rich Guinean Fula sample or yet Cruciani et al.'s 2002 northern Cameroonian E1-M33 rich Fulani sample, tie these samples more closely to "Afroasiatic and Nilo-Saharan speakers in Africa"? Anyone familiar with these samples will be puzzled by Tishkoff et al.'s rationale. - The Explorer

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quote:

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The Fulani ... AACs(Associated Ancestral Clusters), ... likely reflect Saharan African ..., ancestry ..., are closest to the non-African(Eurasian)AAC, consistent with an East African migration of modern humans out of Africa or a back-migration of non-Africans(Eurasians) into Saharan ... Africa."

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quote:

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Originally posted by NonProphet:
alTakruri,

Tishkoff et al. 2009 was very clear in NOT determining Fula origins to anyone who reads and understands the study. She only alludes to a Saharan origin for Fula and EA for Cushitic. The Fula and 14 AACs were separate/distinctive groups that numerous ethnicities SHARE in the admixture Structured analysis. If anyone confuses partial SHARED ancestry with ORIGIN of ancestry then maybe they shouldn't read peer-reviewed technical papers and learn some basic reading comprehension skills.

---

 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Big ups Cholley!
But where are the notes?

quote:

---

Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.:
Here's the entire Reply to Winters:

---

quote:

---

Response to Misleading Comments in the Sarah Tishkoff Paper Published in Science April 30, 2009

Recently a paper, “The Genetic Structure and History of Africans and African Americans” was published in Science magazine by Tishkoff et al. This paper studied 1,327 nuclear microsatellites in 121 African populations, 4 African populations and 60 non-African populations. One analysis in the study explored the use of these nuclear markers for tracing ancestry of AAs. The markers failed to allow differentiation of AAs into various west African ethnic groups. The statement in the paper that has been depicted by the media is: “Thus, most African are likely to have mixed ancestry from different regions of western Africa. This observation, together with the subtle substructure observed among Niger-Kordofanian speakers, will make tracing ancestry of African Americans to specific ethnic groups in Africa challenging, unless considerably more markers are used.”

This statement is in reference to the use of microsatellite markers for inferring African ancestry for AAs. This study has no relevance to what we do at African Ancestry. The study did not study Y chromosome and mtDNA. We do not use nuclear markers like Tishkoff et al. did in this study. Each nuclear marker is found on one of the 23 pairs of human chromosomes, varies, and has two copies (alleles), inherited one from each parent. Due to this complex inheritance pattern it is difficult to determine which allele is inherited from which parent. The mixing of alleles make their use for tracing ancestry difficult.

In fact, over 5 years ago I discovered that using these types of nuclear markers will not be informative for tracing ancestry of African Americans given their mode of inheritance and the diverse west African ancestors who were enslaved in the Americas. During the research for the PBS special African American Lives it was found that the markers are not informative for WA ancestry. When scientists used nuclear markers to trace AAs, like Dr. Henry Louis Gates and tried to place them in a group or region he and the other AAs always clustered in the middle of the groups suggesting that AAs have very mixed West African ancestry.

The problem with testing nuclear markers reveals the importance of lineage based markers for uncovering ancestry. It is the same logic as traditional genealogy tracing for family history. You start with one person, one lineage and build the tree by adding additional lineages. This is practical and reveals that we all have multiple ancestors in which can identify with. For mtDNA and Y chromosome tests these lineages represent those maternal and paternal ancestors. They allow for a more focused connection (a single direct lineage) with ethnic populations.

We educate our customers about the multiple lineages that make up our ancestry. Given our mixed ancestries it is best to test as many lineages as possible in order to get a better picture of your overall ancestries. You will be more successful if you have as much information about your family tree (pedigree) as possible. This will allow us to identify different people in the family to test for more information.

- Dr. Rick Kittles, African Ancestry


http://www.africanancestry.com/science_response.html

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by NonProphet:

Seems like AA have the Fulani fever due to a mtDNA test some falsely claim makes them Wodaabe when in fact Tishkoff found AA average only 1% shared Autosomal(22 of 23 chromosome pairs)DNA ancestry with Fula.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Are we not supposed to see the Saharan origin in
the quote you posted also profers back migration?

quote:

---

The Fulani ... AACs(Associated Ancestral Clusters), ... likely reflect Saharan African ..., ancestry ..., are closest to the non-African(Eurasian)AAC, consistent with an East African migration of modern humans out of Africa or a back-migration of non-Africans(Eurasians) into Saharan ... Africa."

---

Your reading comprehension is superior to none
and your ad hominem is quite beside the point.

quote:

---

Originally posted by NonProphet:
alTakruri,

Tishkoff et al. 2009 was very clear in NOT determining Fula origins to anyone who reads and understands the study. She only alludes to a Saharan origin for Fula and EA for Cushitic. The Fula and 14 AACs were separate/distinctive groups that numerous ethnicities SHARE in the admixture Structured analysis. If anyone confuses partial SHARED ancestry with ORIGIN of ancestry then maybe they shouldn't read peer-reviewed technical papers and learn some basic reading comprehension skills.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by NonProphet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Are we not supposed to see the Saharan origin in
the quote you posted also profers back migration?

quote:

---

The Fulani ... AACs(Associated Ancestral Clusters), ... likely reflect Saharan African ..., ancestry ..., are closest to the non-African(Eurasian)AAC, consistent with an East African migration of modern humans out of Africa or a back-migration of non-Africans(Eurasians) into Saharan ... Africa."

---

Your reading comprehension is superior to none
and your ad hominem is quite beside the point.

quote:

---

Originally posted by NonProphet:
alTakruri,

Tishkoff et al. 2009 was very clear in NOT determining Fula origins to anyone who reads and understands the study. She only alludes to a Saharan origin for Fula and EA for Cushitic. The Fula and 14 AACs were separate/distinctive groups that numerous ethnicities SHARE in the admixture Structured analysis. If anyone confuses partial SHARED ancestry with ORIGIN of ancestry then maybe they shouldn't read peer-reviewed technical papers and learn some basic reading comprehension skills.

---

---

Sorry Al, the general comprehension remark was not directed to you or anyone specific. Many have politicized the study. I respect your opinions because you are one of the few serious seekers.

My point is the Tishkoff study was an African and not a comprehensive Fula or any specific ethnic origins study. The Fula are interesting due to many unusual markers and they only could test Fula living in Nigeria and Cameroon when they live all across Africa(Senegal, Mali, Sierra Leone, Niger, Chad, Mauritania, Sudan, Togo, etc.) and have mixed with local populations. DNA alone can't determine origins but only inferred migration patterns with other lines of evidence in linguistics, domesticates, geology, climatology, archeology, etc. are needed as well. This is why Tishkoff said Fula are LIKELY of Saharan(green phase)origin probably based on their herding lifestyle and their origins have yet to be definitely confirmed. The back migration quote was misinterpreted to be the ONLY migration which it clearly is not nor does it specify what percentage contribution to overall Fula migration patterns.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

So where is the data on Pulaar/Fulfulde speakers of Senegal
and Mauritania and the general region where the language
apparently originates? I ask because I don't remember
seeing much if any of it in population genetics studies.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

the simple fact that the Fula have traditionally been pastarolists have alluded them. Common sense incites that a pastoralist group is very likely to develop lactase persistence, without having to rely on external gene flow; quote...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

So where is the data on Pulaar/Fulfulde speakers of Senegal
and Mauritania and the general region where the language
apparently originates? I ask because I don't remember
seeing much if any of it in population genetics studies.

---

Indeed studies on the Fulani of that area are rare to non-existent. The only example that immediately comes to mind, is that of Cerny et al.'s 2006 mtDNA study, which has found that the Gambian and Senegalese Fula have mtDNA genepools that are virtually identical to the sedentary non-Fulani locals of that area. This was the exception to the rule in their study, wherein despite the Fula's predominant western African ancestry, their markers fell into distinctive clusters peculiar to the Fula...likely because of their tradition of being nomadic, and hence, not exchanging too many genes with the sedentary locals.

---

1. In searching reports on halPulaaren I can't locate
   an online free and full version of the following:
   
   Corbo, R M, Scacchi, R, Cossu, G, Brega, A, Scozzari, R
   Genetic studies on the Senegal population. II.
   Polymorphisms of the plasma proteins F13A, F13B, ORM1, AHSG, C6, C7, and APOC2
   Human Biology, Oct 1994; 66(5):885-903.
   .
   .
2. On the subject header I add the below:
   

   quote:

   ---

   
   Recent advances in human genetics have supplied researchers with powerful tools for the investigation of
   West African history. The problem orientations of these studies have ranged from explorations of disease
   factors to historically focused research on the genetic relations between African populations. One
   common factor in many of these studies is, however, relations between populations within West Africa
   and with populations in other parts of the Old World.
   
   A number of these studies are relevant to considerations of ancient relations across the Sahara.
   Some West African populations have traditionally been considered ‘racially’ mixed, like the Fulbe.
   Genetic data indicates complex biological relationships between different Fulbe groups and other West
   Africans
   
   (Rossi et al. 1991, Allsopp et al. 1992, Corbo et al. 1994, Watson et al. 1997),
   
   but these are
   hardly ‘racial’ in nature. There are similarities in specific genetic features between specific Fulbe
   populations (in Senegambia and Burkina Faso, for example) and North African and European populations
   – but at the same time other Fulbe groups resemble their African neighbours in these same features
   
   (Modiano et al. 2001),
   
   and these genetic similarities are not consistent across the Fulbe populations
   sampled. Moreover, these resemblances do not appear to follow phenotypic variability within Fulbe
   groups
   
   (Cerny et al. 2006: 20).
   
   Wolof and Serer populations, linguistically related to the Fulbe but
   considered sub-Saharan in biological affiliation, also display similarities to North African groups in
   mtDNA systems
   
   (Cerny et al. 2004).
   
   
   Scott MacEachern
   Where in Africa does Africa start? Race, genetics and African Studies across the Sahara
   

   ---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
Mixed race Fulani?

So the Fulani who traded with the Taureg are somehow not suppose to have had genetic flow from them? And the Taureg didn't have genetic flow from Eurasians?

If we are going to call Fulani mixed race then we should also call Italians, Iberians and Greeks mixed race and not White.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PrideandJust:
Here's what the study says about the Fulani's ancestry:

"Although sampled in Nigeria, the very distinct Fulani are part of a nomadic pastoralist population that occupies a broad geographical range across Central and Western Africa. Analyses of microsatellite and insertion/deletion polymorphisms indicate that they share ancestry with Niger-Kordofanian, North African, and Central African Nilo-Saharan populations, as well as low levels of European and/or Middle Eastern ancestry."

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/12/the-mtdna-of-fulani-nomads/

"HMost of the haplotypes belong to haplogroups of West African origin, such as L1b, L3b, L3d, L2b, L2c, and L2d (79.6% in total), which are all well represented in each of the four geographically separated samples. The haplogroups of Western Eurasian origin, such as J1b, U5, H, and V, were also detected but in rather low frequencies (8.1% in total)."

Hassan et al (2008) tested 26 Fulani Y-Chromosomes and over 1/2 had Eurasian Caucasoid Y-DNA.

Tishkoff (2009)


"When two clusters are assumed in the STRUCTURE analysis (K = 2), individuals can primarily be assigned to African (orange) or non-African (blue) clusters"

Fulani also don't consider themselves Black. They are against mixing with Negroid populations around them, calling them "hyenas, apes, and asses" (Dupire 1962) and intermarriage is considered "eating the fruit of the bitter black plum tree" (Stenning 1959)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceasar:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by PrideandJust:
[qb] Here's what the study says about the Fulani's ancestry:

"Although sampled in Nigeria, the very distinct Fulani are part of a nomadic pastoralist population that occupies a broad geographical range across Central and Western Africa. Analyses of microsatellite and insertion/deletion polymorphisms indicate that they share ancestry with Niger-Kordofanian, North African, and Central African Nilo-Saharan populations, as well as low levels of European and/or Middle Eastern ancestry."

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/12/the-mtdna-of-fulani-nomads/

"HMost of the haplotypes belong to haplogroups of West African origin, such as L1b, L3b, L3d, L2b, L2c, and L2d (79.6% in total), which are all well represented in each of the four geographically separated samples. The haplogroups of Western Eurasian origin, such as J1b, U5, H, and V, were also detected but in rather low frequencies (8.1% in total)."

Hassan et al (2008) tested 26 Fulani Y-Chromosomes and over 1/2 had Eurasian Caucasoid Y-DNA.

---

Fulani should have a lot of North African blood since they are they undoubtedly ancestors of many ancient North African peoples. They have a low level of European blood and Middlle Eastern blood(like Beja/Somalis), and a strong Central and West Asian genetic connection, i.e. they are a typical black African population. There are less Fulani with Eurasian paternal ancestry then AFrican AMericans.


" Wow - the Broomhilda blog forum must be movin' on up!"
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Reply to Winters: The origins of the Fulani remain unknown
Laura B. Scheinfeldt, Sameer Soi, and Sarah A. Tishkoff1

+ Author Affiliations
University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA 19104


We would like to first point out that we never interpreted any genetic data in our review article to support a Middle Eastern or European origin for the Fulani (1). We agree with Winters that the Fulani do not originate from the Middle East or Europe (2). Furthermore, we do not maintain that there is a predominance of Eurasian markers in the Fulani; we merely point out that there is some evidence of shared recent ancestry (i.e., gene flow) between the Fulani and Eurasian populations …

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceasar:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by PrideandJust:
[qb] Here's what the study says about the Fulani's ancestry:

"Although sampled in Nigeria, the very distinct Fulani are part of a nomadic pastoralist population that occupies a broad geographical range across Central and Western Africa. Analyses of microsatellite and insertion/deletion polymorphisms indicate that they share ancestry with Niger-Kordofanian, North African, and Central African Nilo-Saharan populations, as well as low levels of European and/or Middle Eastern ancestry."

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/12/the-mtdna-of-fulani-nomads/

"HMost of the haplotypes belong to haplogroups of West African origin, such as L1b, L3b, L3d, L2b, L2c, and L2d (79.6% in total), which are all well represented in each of the four geographically separated samples. The haplogroups of Western Eurasian origin, such as J1b, U5, H, and V, were also detected but in rather low frequencies (8.1% in total)."

Hassan et al (2008) tested 26 Fulani Y-Chromosomes and over 1/2 had Eurasian Caucasoid Y-DNA.

---

Fulani should have a lot of North African blood since they are they undoubtedly ancestors of many ancient North African peoples. They have a low level of European blood and Middlle Eastern blood(like Beja/Somalis), and a strong Central and West Asian genetic connection, i.e. they are a typical black African population. There are less Fulani with Eurasian paternal ancestry then AFrican AMericans.


" Wow - the Broomhilda blog forum must be movin' on up!"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan:
From the Scheinfeldt study:

"Y-chromosome data of 22 African populations, including the Fulani from Burkina Faso and northern Cameroon, were analyzed by Cruciani et al. (2002). The main result of Cruciani's study is that different populations from northem Cameroon (Fali. Ouldeme, Daba, and some mixed samples) reveal traces of back-migration from Asia to Africa because of a high proportion of haplotype 117. However, the Fulani sample from northem Cameroon considered by Cruciani and colleagues shows a rather low frequency of this haplotype, and the Fulani, which have a high frequency of haplotype 43, are situated as outliers. Cruciani et al. (2002) also showed that the Fulani from Burkina Faso have reduced diversity, because only two Y-chromosome haplotypes were observed in their sample.

In the introduction we mentioned several hypotheses for the origin of the (nomadic) Fulani. One well-known hypothesis is that the Fulani come from the Nile valley (e.g., Tauxier 1937). Analysis of FST distances, however, shows no close relationship between the sampled Fulani and the analyzed Nilotic populations. Admixture analysis, however, does not exclude the possible parental role of the Nilotic populations because the admixture coefficient for these populations is high. It is necessary to state that the conclusiveness of this finding is rather low. Further geographic sampling, particularly from Niger and other parts of the Sudanic belt of Africa, is needed to acquire a deeper insight into the genetic structure of the nomadic people of the African Sahel."

---

quote:

---

Reply to Winters: The origins of the Fulani remain unknown
Laura B. Scheinfeldt, Sameer Soi, and Sarah A. Tishkoff1

+ Author Affiliations
University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA 19104


We would like to first point out that we never interpreted any genetic data in our review article to support a Middle Eastern or European origin for the Fulani (1). We agree with Winters that the Fulani do not originate from the Middle East or Europe (2). Furthermore, we do not maintain that there is a predominance of Eurasian markers in the Fulani; we merely point out that there is some evidence of shared recent ancestry (i.e., gene flow) between the Fulani and Eurasian populations …

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Perahu:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sundjata:
^What idiot looks at the lower K? K = 14 exposes most or nearly all of that red to be African. You are not understanding that these are merely clusters that are shared between Africans and Europeans. You are Eurocentric so you give Europeans primacy even through this is structure that likely goes back to the OOA exodus (which means these people are 60,000 years removed from you and you simply retain archaic structure).

---

The Fulani have little East African ancestry. This does not explain their position. They are West African. You should compare them to the Mandingo.

Their affinity with Europeans is primarily due to admixture from Caucasoid North Africans.

---

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

^If this were true, and ignoring the "Caucasoid" nonsense, they'd have more light blue from the Mozabite cluster but they are nearly completely yellow with bits of input from other African populations (mostly Mandinka).

Dude, seriously, you aren't very smart.
 

---

Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
 




Fulani have large amounts of Caucasoid ancestry.
 

---

Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
 
Admixed populations are able to create their own clusters. This does not mean they are pure, just look at the lower clusters, the Mozabite have their own cluster but are substantially mixed, so are the Fulani (mixture between indigenous West Africans and Caucasoid North Africans).
 

---

Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
 
^See the post above you which exposes that to be a lie. Rehashing:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sundjata:
^You posted that stupid graph before and still persist in presenting it despite its anthropological illiteracy. WTF is a paleo-African and how are the Fulani "mixed" if they plot closest to a relatively un-admixed [with Eurasian] Nilo-Saharan group? Simply slapping graphics on there that reads "mixed" and "Paleo-African" mean absolutely nothing and do not constitute proof. It constitutes fraud and propoganda through pre-labeling (circular reasoning). Africans are inherently diverse and it has nothing to do with Europeans, who have always been irrelevant.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Perahu:

Admixed populations are able to create their own clusters. This does not mean they are pure, just look at the lower clusters, the Mozabite have their own cluster but are substantially mixed, so are the Fulani (mixture between indigenous West Africans and Caucasoid North Africans).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sundjata:
Again, the Mozabite cluster is accompanied by other AACs, suggesting REAL admixture while the Fulani AAC yellow bar is nearly full with the other contributions being African ones. Therefore, your argument falls flat.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Perahu:
You can not compare the Fulani to the Maasai at all.

As you can see the Maasai are an indigenous East African population, more specifically they are Nilo-Hamites. We all know the Out of Africa migration occurred on the Eastern part of the continent, so naturally East Africans tend to be shifted towards Eurasians.

However, the Fulani are WEST Africans. There was no OOA migration from the western part of the continent. The Fulani only have very negligible East African, they are predominantly WEST African.

Compared to purely Negroid populations from West Africa like the Yoruba, Hausa, or Mandingo the Fulani have SIGNIFICANT levels of Caucasoid admixture.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sundjata:
I've already addressed this. This is why you have people like Tishkoff and hand Hassan supposing a migration of Fulani from east to west or even archaeologists associating the Fulani with the ancient Saharans. In addition, Europeans my be shifted towards Fulani by chance due to Africa's immense diversity (minor instances of convergent evolution). They don't necessarily have to come from East Africa.

---

quote:

---

Like the Fulani cluster, it eats up other admixture. The Mozabite are much more mixed than what is shown on the higher K, the lower K results shows their true admixture levels.

---

Lower K doesn't show admixture as well as higher K, and it in fact obscures it. You honestly have no idea how this structure works and therefore, have no idea what you're talking about.
 

---

Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
 
I am done with you Negrocentrists. I am not going to constantly reiterate myself.

The Fulani are racially impure, and you damn well know it. They are an intermediate Caucasoid-Negroid population, just effin deal with it. Good day sir!
 

---

Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
 
^Another one bites the dust.

Yes, leave now so that you may save yourself from further embarrassment. The proud Fulani of west Africa would be appalled and absolutely disgusted by the antics of this mouth-foaming racialist looking to incorporate them into his fictional pantheon. Trust that your 19th century race concepts have no bearing on these people. Surely the biggest mistake you made was thinking that BS was gonna fly here. You were given a rude awakening.
 

---

Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Sundjata

Credit you for putting the fiya pon Perahu...He runs because he knows he can't refute what was stated by you in this thread.

What also must be understood, is that the Tuareg have E1b1a at 63+% and should NOT be looked at as Mixed Africans Either. There closest people to them also is the Beja in East Africa which shows that Tuareg were originally from East Africa.

As for the Fula, there closest links is always to the Wolof, Serer, Songhai etc. They have Fine Features because they are adapted to a Dry Climate and NOT because of mixing with Eurasians. Also like I read in a Study, The Fula with mixture were NOT the ones with Narrow Features but the ones with Broad Features...so that negates the ideas about them.

Also Look at the Tutsis who are Bantus from Rwanda. They have Narrow Features, but show to be more West African then anything else. Read this from Jean Hiernaux who talks about the FACES of African and shows that the Narrow Features in Africans is NOT because of Mixture also we have the elongated Africans that he shows in his chart to be adapted to a Dry Climate:


Jean Hiernaux
The People of Africa(Peoples of the World Series) 1975


Jean Hiernaux
The People of Africa(Peoples of the World Series) 1975
The oldest remains of Homo sapiens sapiens found in East Africa were associated with an industry having similarities with the Capsian. It has been called Upper Kenyan Capsian, although its derivation from the North African Capsian is far from certain. At Gamble's Cave in Kenya, five human skeletons were associated with a late phase of the industry, Upper Kenya Capsian C, which contains pottery. A similar association is presumed for a skeleton found at Olduvai, which resembles those from Gamble's Cave. The date of Upper Kenya Capsian C is not precisely known (an earlier phase from Prospect Farm on Eburru Mountain close to Gamble's Cave has been dated to about 8000 BC); but the presence of pottery indicates a rather later date, perhaps around 400 BC. The skeletons are of very tall people. They had long, narrow heads, and relatively long, narrow faces. The nose was of medium width; and prognathism, when present, was restricted to the alveolar, or tooth-bearing, region...... all their features can be found in several living populations of East Africa, like the Tutsi of Rwanda and Burundi, who are very dark skinned and differ greatly from Europeans in a number of body proportions .............
From the foregoing, it is tempting to locate the area of differentiation of these people in the interior of East Africa. There is every reason to believe that they are ancestral to the living 'Elongated East Africans'. Neither of these populations, fossil and modern, should be considered to be closely related to the populations of Europe and western Asia.
In sub-Saharan Africa, many anthropological characters show a wide range of population means or frequencies. In some of them, the whole world range is covered in the sub-continent. Here live the shortest and the tallest human populations, the one with the highest and the one with the lowest nose, the one with the thickest and the one with the thinnest lips in the world. In this area, the range of the average nose widths covers 92 per cent of the world range:

only a narrow range of extremely low means are absent from the African record. Means for head diameters cover about 80 per cent of the world range; 60 per cent is the corresponding value for a variable once cherished by physical anthropologists, the cephalic index, or ratio of the head width to head length expressed as a percentage....
Claims that Caucasoid peoples once lived in eastern Africa have been
shown to be wrong,..
,.. - JO Vogel, Precolonial Africa.





ALL this debunks everything that Perahu stands for which is all narrow faced Africans is because of mixture.

Just Gotta keep schooling them boys.

Peace
 

---

Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
 
All those ''elongated'' peoples according to Hiernaux are admixed, the only exceptions being the Dinka, Shilluk, Nuer, and Herero as these are pure Negroids.
 

---

Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Perahu

With all due respect, Please show the forum that All the elongated Africans are admixed including the Tutsi.

You think you know better then the people in these studies yet you were refuted by Sundjata in this very thread and you were refuted about the Fulani in the other thread.

Simple prove that the Fula, Tutsi, Beja are admixed. You also seem to forget that you were refuted on your ideas about the Ugandan Africans you claimed were mixed and you will be schooled again on any of the Tuareg, Fula, Tutsi etc in this thread.

Peace
 

---

Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
 
I already showed that the Beja and Fulani have Eurasian DNA.

Saharan ethnic groups and Horn Africans are also heavily Eurasian mixed. Tutsi and Maasai have Horn African admixture.

The only truly African evolved elongated peoples are the Dinka, Shilluk, Nuer, and Herero. These are indisputable pure breed Negroid Africans.
 

---

Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
 
Right on KING.

I'm starting to realize that this guy is no more than a drone of Dienekes. This is why he can't think for himself or respond to the above, because he is programed to merely repeat what Dienekes and other race-junky dilettantes have already said. The guy is clearly a joke.
 

---

Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
 
^ Speaking of Dienekes, how come he's never come here for a debate? I know Racial Reality has gotten his ass kicked here a couple of times, but Dienekes doesn't seem to have the balls to argue with us.
 

---

Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
 
Posted by Me:

quote:

---

Again, the Mozabite cluster is accompanied by other AACs, suggesting REAL admixture while the Fulani AAC yellow bar is nearly full with the other contributions being African ones. Therefore, your argument falls flat..

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Truthcentric:
^ Speaking of Dienekes, how come he's never come here for a debate? I know Racial Reality has gotten his ass kicked here a couple of times, but Dienekes doesn't seem to have the balls to argue with us.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Truthcentric:
^ Speaking of Dienekes, how come he's never come here for a debate? I know Racial Reality has gotten his ass kicked here a couple of times, but Dienekes doesn't seem to have the balls to argue with us.

---

Because he thinks he's more than he is, and so does Perahu, his drone. In fact, that's it, Dienekes has idiots like Perahu to do it for him. He'd be embarrassed though if he knew how poorly they represent him.
 

---

Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sundjata:
Actually, this point would be better made with the Algerian sample and it is also unnecessary since the main point is Fulani have little to no North African, Middle-eastern, or European ancestry according to K = 14.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Razib:
Observe below that there is a Fulani cluster. I think this is pretty much an artifact. At K = 7 the Fulani have a majority component which is modal in West Africa & Bantu speakers, and a minority component which is identical to the one modal in Mozabite Berbers from Algeria. The Mozabites reside in the far northern Sahara, and their modal component drops off as one goes east toward western Asia and the eastern Mediterranean. I suspect that what is showing up in ADMIXTURE is the ancient hybridization of the Fulani, and perhaps their demographic expansion from this core group.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Razib:
The Mandenka, in far western Africa, have elevated LD vis-a-vis hunter-gatherers, but not nearly so much as the groups with more “northern” admixture (e.g., the Fulani).

---

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/03/where-in-the-world-did-anatomically-modern-humans-come-from/

Egg on your face!
 

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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Sundjata

Man Sundjata this Perahu character is only fooling himself.

He claims that he showed that Beja and Fulani have eurasian genes, when Me and You gave him studies that refuted his arguement...Yet he NEVER even responded to the studies but posted a stupid chart that claimed Africans as paleo....What a Joke.

Hey Perahu I gave you studies that stated that Fulanis had less then 8.1% eurasian genes and that Fula had little caucasoid genes yet you ignored this. I also gave you a study that stated that the Fulbe had 100% e1b1a. You have not proven nothing but that you are a brainwashed lackey of a fool called dienekes. Show the Study that states that Tutsis and Afar are mixed...would love to read it.

Peace
 

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Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
 
This is the speculation of a blogger based on something that isn't empirically evident (claiming that they partially diverged from a "core" Mozabite population). He is explaining the cluster that we are discussing, preferring it to be an "artifact" but this no where near carries the weight that you want it to. For instance, the Fulani are not special, again, look at the Massai at K = 2:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

^Ask him to explain that and come back. He is basically just assuming like you, that the structure is not ancestral East African like that of the Massai, but this is an opinion in absence of cited literature to support it. For instance, Tishkoff associates the Fulani with Nilo-Saharan groups like the Massai so my view is very reasonable and finds support in professional literature.

Not to mention, experts who have reviewed the combined genetic literature on the Fulani agree with my view.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20091809
 

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Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
 
@King the stupid negrocentrist.

We are speaking of Autosomal DNA here.
 

---

Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Perahu:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sundjata:
Actually, this point would be better made with the Algerian sample and it is also unnecessary since the main point is Fulani have little to no North African, Middle-eastern, or European ancestry according to K = 14.

---

Razib Khan who produced these plots is of the opinion that the Fulani are mixed.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Razib:
Observe below that there is a Fulani cluster. I think this is pretty much an artifact. At K = 7 the Fulani have a majority component which is modal in West Africa & Bantu speakers, and a minority component which is identical to the one modal in Mozabite Berbers from Algeria. The Mozabites reside in the far northern Sahara, and their modal component drops off as one goes east toward western Asia and the eastern Mediterranean. I suspect that what is showing up in ADMIXTURE is the ancient hybridization of the Fulani, and perhaps their demographic expansion from this core group.

---

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/africa-in-12-admixture-chunks/

quote:

---

Originally posted by Razib:
The Mandenka, in far western Africa, have elevated LD vis-a-vis hunter-gatherers, but not nearly so much as the groups with more “northern” admixture (e.g., the Fulani).

---

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/03/where-in-the-world-did-anatomically-modern-humans-come-from/

Egg on your face!

---

*OUCH*
 

---

Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
 
^Address the above and stop spamming. I'm citing Razib's results, not Razib who is not an expert.
 

---

Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
 
The Fulani are not East African, their homeland is near Senegal. They migrated from Western West Africa to Central West Africa. They should be compared to West African populations (like the Mandingo), not Eastern ones. The position of Eastern groups is explained by the OOA event (plus in the case of Ethiopians, West Eurasian back-migrations).

Razib is a qualified geneticist and far more intelligent than you. His opinion is far more important than yours.
 

---

Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
 
E-P2 is ultimately East African so Fulani are ultimately East African. A scenario could be that their ancestors stayed further north and for longer and thus, weren't affected as much by contact with aboriginal Central African groups. That they WERE north after the dispersal from East Africa is evident in the Tassili rock art alluded to.

As far as your assessment of anyone's intelligence with respect to "educational level", me worrying about your opinion on that is like getting my feelings hurt by a retarded toddler. If he is a geneticist then by all means, post his credentials and published work and cite where his opinion here is supported in the literature. When you do I'll be quiet. Excuse my skepticism but you are the same idiot who called Dienekes a "reliable source".
 

---

Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
 
...
 

---

Posted by Calabooz' (Member # 18238) on :
 
Posted by Evergreen a while ago, relevant:


Letter to the Editor: Commentary on the Fulani—History, Genetics, and Linguistics, an Adjunct to Hassan et al., 2008

AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY(2010)

Keita et al.

In their recent work, Hassan et al. (2008) describe and analyze patterns of biallelic Y chromosome variation in diverse groups currently resident in the Republic of Sudan. They successfully historicize many of the populations in their study and do not interpret data in static racio-typological terms, something to be rejected (Keita and Kittles, 1997), and largely avoid the problems noted by MacEachern (2000, 2001) and Pluciennik (2001). Hassan et al. show the human biogeography of Sudan to have been impacted by Arabic speakers and other non- Africans who arrived primarily in the Islamic period from Asia via Egypt and interacted in various ways with local peoples (Cunnison, 1966; Haaland, 1969; Bayoumi et al., 1985; Bayoumi and Saha, 1987; Saha and El Seikh (sic), 1987; Holl, 2003). Their analysis documents the introgression of M89 lineages into certain populations of northeast Africa, where the indigenous haplogroups are A, B, and E, thus illustrating biological ‘‘levels of history’’— to borrow a concept from Braudel (1982)—which may be useful in thinking about diachronic changes that can occur in populations/regions (Keita, 2005b).

Genetic data have long been used in approaches to explore population history, and their value has generally been recognized at some level, but ‘‘at the same time there are potential problems with these techniques’’ (MacEachern, 2001, p 357). Some of these problems include the over extrapolation of often-limited genetic data, treating gene history as ethnic/population history, assuming deep and near essentialist historical continuity to groups/populations bearing particular names (whether emic or etic), and the incomplete incorporation of data, theory, and arguments from other disciplines such as history, ethnography, historical linguistics, history of ideas, and archaeology into the research design, analyses, and interpretations. Crude empiricism and reductionism have to be avoided in explaining and exploring the biocultural origins of ethnic groups/populations (MacEachern, 2001).

We are interested in exploring the suggestion, made by Hassan et al. (2008, p 321), that the Fulani, as a people— an ethnos, may have had a non-African origin. One of us (FJ) has worked extensively among the Fulani of Liberia, Cameroon, and Nigeria and has some field experience of their ideas of identity, religion, marital beliefs, and practices, which could have a bearing on genetics.

The Fulani number some 30 million live in 17 countries between the Atlantic to Red Sea coasts (Cerny et al., 2006) and are known by a variety of names: e.g., Peul, Fulbe, Fula, Fellata, and Pulaar [also noted in Murdock (1959), MacEachern (2000), and Cerny et al. (2006)]. They call themselves Fulbe, the plural of Pullo in Fulfulde, their language (Greenberg, 1949). Some are urbanites and others cattle pastoralists Stenning, 1957). McIntosh (1998) suggests that the Fulani identity ‘‘crystallized’’ (differentiated) in Futa Toro in the Senegambia region, among populations who migrated from the increasingly arid later Holocene Sahara, analogous to earlier migrations into the Nile Valley (Kuper and Kropelin, 2006). Archaeological evidence from other west African regions is interpreted as indicating either migration or influence from the later Holocene Sahara (e.g. Davies, 1967; Casey, 2005). Researchers in West African history and ethnography note the migration of Fulani from the Senegambia across the Sahel belt from west to east (e.g. Stenning, 1957; Willis, 1978; Hasan and Ogot, 1992; Vansina, 1992). The Fulani are mentioned in older historical works from West Africa [e.g., Sadi’s Tarikh as Sudan, see Hunwick (2003)] and are notable as 18th and 19th century Islamic religious reformers, scholars, and state builders (Vansina, 1992; Boyd, 1994; Hiskett, 1994). There are no documented ancient Fulani communities in Asia.

Hassan et al.’s (2008, p 321) suggestion of a non-African origin for the Fulani is a direct extrapolation based on the predominance (53.8%) of the R1*M173 lineage (an M89 lineage) in a single sample (n 5 26) from Sudan. However, analyses of other samples of Fulani give different results. Here, Y chromosome lineages are discussed in terms of their major markers, which will be understood to include downstream derivatives. For example, M35 will be used to mean both M35* and its derivatives M35/M81, M35/78, etc. In one sample from Guinea Bissau (n 5 59), the markers and frequencies are as follows: M2 275.6%, M35 213.6%, M33 26.8%, and 1.7% each of M75, M91, and M89-derived lineages (Rosa et al., 2007). In another study, based primarily on TaqI 49a, f variants, which can be ‘‘translated’’ into biallelic counterparts, a Fulani (called Peul) sample (n 5 54) from Burkina Faso has these frequencies: M2%–50%, M35 222.1% lineages (Lucotte et al., 2007). A small sample (n 5 20) of Fulbe from one area of the Cameroons has the M33 (E1*) lineage at a frequency of 52% (Scozzari et al., 1997, 1999). Hassan et al.’s sample also has a high percentage of M35 (34.6%). The mix of M2 and M35 lineages, both derivatives of P2 (or PN2) (see dendrogram in Hassan et al.), may reflect the sahara/sahel having served as an interaction zone of populations— a metapopulation which shuffled lineages—in the wetter periods of the early Holocene (Keita, 2005a; Kuper and Kropelin, 2006). The M2 lineage is sometimes almost characterized as being found only associated with the Niger Congo language phylum (Hassan et al., 321), of which Bantu is a subgroup. M2 lineages are found in populations languages from non-Bantu Niger Congo, Nilo-Saharan, and Afro-Asiatic phyla [see discussion in Keita (2005a)], and in high frequencies in West Africa including the Senegambia region Scozzari, 1997, 1999; Lucotte et al., 2007; Rosa et al., 2007).

Other genetic data are of interest. Recent mtDNA studies of the Fulani suggest their having broad representation of African haplotypes (specifically, the L megahaplogroup and U6), not found so far in large frequencies outside Africa other than in the various diasporic descendant groups (forced or voluntary) (e.g., Cerny, 2006; Ely et al., 2006, 2007; Rosa et al., 2004; Jackson nd1). Reviews of classical genetic markers also indicate that the Fulani of West Africa are not an anomalous group in that region (see e.g., Hiernaux, 1975) from a narrow biogeographical perspective.

Language affiliation has been frequently documented to parallel genetic patterns in West Africa (Jackson, 1986), although there is no obligatory causation or correlation of language and biology. Throughout their geographical range, the Fulani have retained their language Fulfulde, a member of the West Atlantic or Atlantic-Congo subgroup of the Niger-Congo phylum or quasi-stock (Greenberg, 1963; Nichols, 1997; Williamson and Blench, 2000). The closest relatives of Fulfulde are Serer and Wolof, which
are restricted to the Senegambia region of West Africa (Greenberg, 1949; Williamson and Blench, 2000). The linguistic evidence is consistent with the known movements of Fulani from the Senegambia-Guinea region.

The diversity of Y chromosome haplotypes found in
Fulani samples is highly variable and is likely explained by ancient and recent events. The more recent political activities of Fulani in the 18th and 19th centuries led to the Fulbeization of various peoples, a process which had not ended by the mid-20th century (Hendrixson, 1980; David and Voas, 1981; Schultz, 1984). The frequencies in Hassan et al.’s sample are consistent with a secondary migration from the Cameroons where the Fulani are known to have bioculturally assimilated various groups (Schultz, 1984), and where there is a notable frequency of R1*M173 in published samples of various ethnolinguistic groups, including some Fulbe (Scozzari, 1997; Cruciani et al., 2002). Genetic drift could also have had a role. Space does not permit further discussion of R1*M173, which has a higher frequency in central Africa than in the Near East (Flores et al., 2005), and which may have come to Africa in a back migration (Cruciani, 2002) during the Late Stone Age, before the emergence of current or ancient African ethnic/linguistic groups/ peoples. R1*M173 became part of an African biocultural evolutionary history, perhaps shaped in part in a later Saharan metapopulation, and apparently later dispersed (along with other lineages) into the ancestral populations of various regions. The evidence supports the Fulbe having emerged in Africa.

It would be of interest in the case of Hassan et al.’s sample to know its members recent family histories, to what degree it was a distinct breeding population or random sample, oral and written histories, paths of migration, clan affiliation, intermarriage patterns, number of loan words in its dialect of Fulfulde (if a community), mitochondrial DNA profile, its subsistence practices (and any changes), and profiles of other Fulani samples from Sudan. Together, these would help in the construction of a narrative of the biocultural history of Fulbe populations in the Sudan. In general, efforts at ethno-population history may benefit from considering when (1) genetic data should be subsumed to, and interpreted in terms of, chronologies or narratives or social structures established by ethnology, climatology, archaeology, history, and linguistics, (2) genetic evidence should be the primary data used to create the framework or narrative, or (3) both nongenetic and genetic information should be used equally in a process of ‘‘reciprocal illumination.’’ A temporal framework is crucial in such work. Ethnogenesis (the emergence of cultural identity) and biogenesis (the emergence of biological traits) are not causal nor necessarily co-terminous or correlated. Populations can change biology and/or culture over time.
 

---

Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Perahu:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sundjata:
Actually, this point would be better made with the Algerian sample and it is also unnecessary since the main point is Fulani have little to no North African, Middle-eastern, or European ancestry according to K = 14.

---

Razib Khan who produced these plots is of the opinion that the Fulani are mixed.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Razib:
Observe below that there is a Fulani cluster. I think this is pretty much an artifact. At K = 7 the Fulani have a majority component which is modal in West Africa & Bantu speakers, and a minority component which is identical to the one modal in Mozabite Berbers from Algeria. The Mozabites reside in the far northern Sahara, and their modal component drops off as one goes east toward western Asia and the eastern Mediterranean. I suspect that what is showing up in ADMIXTURE is the ancient hybridization of the Fulani, and perhaps their demographic expansion from this core group.

---

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/africa-in-12-admixture-chunks/

quote:

---

Originally posted by Razib:
The Mandenka, in far western Africa, have elevated LD vis-a-vis hunter-gatherers, but not nearly so much as the groups with more “northern” admixture (e.g., the Fulani).

---

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/03/where-in-the-world-did-anatomically-modern-humans-come-from/

Egg on your face!

---

I'm done here.
 

---

Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
 
^You just said that. Leave then and accept defeat, we won't miss you.

Edit: LOL! This insecure idiot edited his post so that he could post the same sh1t again as some sort of last word. What an actor, hahaha! You lose, drone.
 

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Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
 
KING.

Recall, this idiot was trying to associate Haplogroup J in the Beja with the "European" structure to prove that it wasn't ancestral East African. Yet when you use the nearly 100% e1b1a in Fulani to make the same point he cries foul! What a pathetic hypocrite. Anyways, hopefully that's the end of that (even though I'm sure Mr. "Dienekes et al." will indeed be back)..

quote:

---

Originally posted by Perahu:
@King the stupid negrocentrist.

We are speaking of Autosomal DNA here.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sundjata:
KING.

Recall, this idiot was trying to associate Haplogroup J in the Beja with the "European" structure to prove that it wasn't ancestral East African. Yet when you use the nearly 100% e1b1a in Fulani to make the same point he cries foul! What a pathetic hypocrite. Anyways, hopefully that's the end of that (even though I'm sure Mr. "Dienekes et al." will indeed be back)..

quote:

---

Originally posted by Perahu:
@King the stupid negrocentrist.

We are speaking of Autosomal DNA here.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Calabooz':
It's also possible that J1-M267 has an African origin. And usually when you see so-called Eurasian haplogroups at high frequencies, it doesn't mean that hundreds of Eurasians came piling in, altering phenotype. As Perahu seems to believe

---

Sickening Negrocentrism!

J1-M267 originated in the Near East. Just because so many 'Africans' ended up with this haplogroup as a result of Neolethic expansions from the Near East and later on Arabian expansions in classical times does not make it African, period!
 

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Posted by awlaadberry (Member # 17426) on :
 
Hold on everybody! I have an idea. Why don't we just ask the Fulani themselves where they are from and leave it at that? Show them a little respect.
 

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Posted by Mango and Papaya Delight (Member # 6729) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Perahu:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Perahu:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sundjata:
Actually, this point would be better made with the Algerian sample and it is also unnecessary since the main point is Fulani have little to no North African, Middle-eastern, or European ancestry according to K = 14.

---

Razib Khan who produced these plots is of the opinion that the Fulani are mixed.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Razib:
Observe below that there is a Fulani cluster. I think this is pretty much an artifact. At K = 7 the Fulani have a majority component which is modal in West Africa & Bantu speakers, and a minority component which is identical to the one modal in Mozabite Berbers from Algeria. The Mozabites reside in the far northern Sahara, and their modal component drops off as one goes east toward western Asia and the eastern Mediterranean. I suspect that what is showing up in ADMIXTURE is the ancient hybridization of the Fulani, and perhaps their demographic expansion from this core group.

---

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/africa-in-12-admixture-chunks/

quote:

---

Originally posted by Razib:
The Mandenka, in far western Africa, have elevated LD vis-a-vis hunter-gatherers, but not nearly so much as the groups with more “northern” admixture (e.g., the Fulani).

---

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/03/where-in-the-world-did-anatomically-modern-humans-come-from/

Egg on your face!

---

I'm done here.

---

 

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Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
 
^Why are there so many Euro quack cheer-leaders on here all of a sudden? Anyways, this is called appealing to authority as his primary source is the opinion of a blogger:

quote:

---

An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form:

Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S.
Person A makes claim C about subject S.
Therefore, C is true.

---

quote:

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"The Fulani and Cushitic (an eastern Afroasiatic subfamily) AACs [clusters], which likely reflect Saharan African and East African ancestry, respectively, are closest to the non-African AACs, consistent with an East African migration of modern humans out of Africa or a back-migration of non-Africans into Saharan and Eastern Africa."

---

----Tishkoff et al.

^And as shown in the Tishkoff (2000) citation she prefers the OOA explanation, calling simple "admixture models less likely". Also, like I'd stated with respect to "Saharan" ancestry, even the "low to moderate levels" (as opposed to Perahu's "high levels") are questionable given the Dogon and Dioula anomalies. So again, when Perahu can bring me something better than blogger speculation, we'll talk. For now, the experts have spoken.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Calabooz:
It's also possible that J1-M267 has an African origin. And usually when you see so-called Eurasian haplogroups at high frequencies, it doesn't mean that hundreds of Eurasians came piling in, altering phenotype. As Perahu seems to believe

---

quote:

---

"The Fulani and Cushitic (an eastern Afroasiatic subfamily) AACs [clusters], which likely reflect Saharan African and East African ancestry, respectively, are closest to the non-African AACs, consistent with an East African migration of modern humans out of Africa or a back-migration of non-Africans into Saharan and Eastern Africa."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Hold on everybody! I have an idea. Why don't we just ask the Fulani themselves where they are from and leave it at that? Show them a little respect.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sundjata:
^OR, not AND! Learn how to read. She prefers the former explanation as already shown in the other citation. Either way it contradicts your blogger reference.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Indeed. There are Fulani in this very thread actually who already affirm their affinity with surrounding African populations yet I don't think any of us expect Perakeet ("Dienekes' parrot") to care, really. He'd rather rely on the race bloggers.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sundjata:
As a matter of fact, he's never read a published article in his life which is apparent by the fact that he didn't know what "et al." meant until recently. This was exposed when he first registered here promoting Dienekes and calling him a "reliable source" and after citing him, referring to the cited author as "Dienekes et al".. I mean, seriously, no wonder he relies on bloggers. This is the quality of education that we're dealing with in these lazy, self-taught race loons.

---

I was using the ''et al.'' remark comically. We all know that Mr. Pontikos is not in academia.
 

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Posted by Calabooz' (Member # 18238) on :
 

quote:

---

J1-M267 originated in the Near East. Just because so many 'Africans' ended up with this haplogroup as a result of Neolethic expansions from the Near East and later on Arabian expansions in classical times does not make it African, period!

---

quote:

---

We don't even need to go there. It's pretty clear though according to Hassan, Nebel, Keita, and others, that the J1 here is recent (within the past 1300 years) and has nothing with any Neolithic expansion. That nonsense was debunked a long time ago by archaeologists, yet Euro clowns hold on to that like they do the "race" concept because they know without it, their arguments would be reduced to typical Klan doctrine.

---

quote:

---

I was using the ''et al.'' remark comically. We all know that Mr. Pontikos is not in academia.

---

quote:

---

The point is that she does *NOT* rule out Eurasian back-migrations which affected many Saharan and Eastern groups.

---

The point is that she thinks simple admixture models are "less likely"
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^^ LMAO The idiot's avatar is right on-- he is a CLOWN plain and simple!! Why you guys take him seriously is beyond me. His only purpose here is to entertain us with his silly nonsense, nothing more.

Remember this is the same guy that claimed the Bantu Tutsi of Rwanda are "mixed" because the closely related Bantu Hima of Uganda are supposedly "mixed" even though the chart he presents as proof shows the Nilotic Hema which shows no such thing!


This nut is a joke!
 

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Posted by awlaadberry (Member # 17426) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Hold on everybody! I have an idea. Why don't we just ask the Fulani themselves where they are from and leave it at that? Show them a little respect.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sundjata:
^OR, not AND! Learn how to read. She prefers the former explanation as already shown in the other citation. Either way it contradicts your blogger reference and mentions what I've been saying all along.

quote:

---

Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Hold on everybody! I have an idea. Why don't we just ask the Fulani themselves where they are from and leave it at that? Show them a little respect.

---

Indeed. There are Fulani in this very thread actually who already affirm their affinity with surrounding African populations yet I don't think any of us expect Perakeet ("Dienekes' parrot") to care, really. He'd rather rely on the race bloggers.

As a matter of fact, he's never read a published article in his life which is apparent by the fact that he didn't know what "et al." meant until recently. This was exposed when he first registered here promoting Dienekes and calling him a "reliable source" and after citing him, referring to the cited author as "Dienekes et al".. I mean, seriously, no wonder he relies on bloggers. This is the quality of education that we're dealing with in these lazy, self-taught race loons.

---

I'd like for Fulanis from different parts of the world to come here to Egyptsearch and say what Fulani historians have always said over the centuries about the origin of the Fulani. Can someone arrange this?
 

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Posted by Calabooz' (Member # 18238) on :
 

 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

Woodabe Fellata/Fulani

Fulani, Peul or Fellata today comprise a number of groups some of whom are partially mixed with with peoples of Soninke or Wangara, Zaghai/Songhai and Hausa in origin. They are called Fulbe. This admixture occured in places like Massina, Takrur and in other places in the Senegambia.

“it was from Futa Toro that the Turudbe’ departed for Bundu, Futa Jallon, Massina and other countries ofthe Niger Bend.” [See J. R. Willis., “The Torodbe Clerisy: A Social View”, Journal of African History, XIX, 2, London, (1978), pp. 195-212].

The founding ancestral Fulani groups such as the Wodaabe who were until recently better known as the Futabe or Futa seem to bear a close relationship to certain pastoralists and warrior folk represented in neolithic and later rock art. It should be noted the Woodabe men in particular are often in the range of 7 feet tall and (sometimes well over) similar to certain other African groups of supposedly enigmatic origin - the Tuareg and Tutsi. They probably represent a specialized type related to the Tuareg and Tutsi. The features are as we have all noticed often similar to the narrow nosed groups of Nilotics and Cushitic speakers. This however is also similar to the portrayal of certain people of the Saharan rock art of the pastoral bovidians. It can be assumed that the earliest Fulani looked very much like the modern Futa or Woodabe in terms of their features aquiline noses and often orthagnathic profiles and woolly but not always short -hair.



Woodabe men wear ancient hats similar to ancient "Libyans"


According to Christian Dupuy, author of “The Rock Carvings of the Adrar des Iforas”, the Fulani may have been responsible for central Saharan rock art in which warriors are depicted. He wrote, “Certains des Peuls établis aujourd'hui dans la moyenne vallée du Niger, pourraient être affiliés aux auteurs des gravures de guerriers du Sahara méridional…”

Jean Hiernaux a noted specialist on ancient rock art or frescoes of neolithic Saharan pastoralists was also struck by similarities of the crest headgear and bun hairstyle in pastoral rock art of the Hoggar and Tassili and those of Fulani men and women of Macina/Massina near the Niger. He claimed the large lyre-shaped horns, so typical of the bovine figures, carvings and cave paintings are found especially in the Bororo Fulani herds.

Colonial authors also noted connection of Fulani hairstyles of late Libyans of the time of Seti . Oric Bates also commented on these hairstyle similarities saying “the Fulbe or Fulahs of the Chad-zone sometimes braid the hair in a manner which strikingly recalls the Libyans of the monuments.” (Oric Bates, The Eastern Libyans, 1914, p. 136).


Fulani man

The name of the Torodbe or Taurud Fulani may have some connection to the region of Tarudant south of the Atlas, where Uqba was said to have stopped to purchase maidens who were of matchless beauty in a chronicle of Air 9see Bornu Sahara and Sudan p. 62.) H.R. Palmer considered the name Taurud to be cognate to the Daradae or Darae Gaituli mentioned by the ancients.


One of the earliest comments in this regard on the Peul or Masas of Massina is from Ignatius Donnelly’s, 1882 the author records that in “Soudan, on the banks of the Niger, dwells a negro tribe ruled by a royal family (Masas), who are of rather fair complexion, and claim descent from white men…the Masas wear their hair in the same fashion as the Tamahus” ( Atlantis: The Antediluvian World, Donnelly & Sykes, 2003, p. 182). (Of course the true Fulani are rather fair in complexion compared to the Soninke inhabitants of places like Massina. The name "white men" in West Africa it should be noted isn't employed among West Africans the same way it is in Europe, but refers to people like the Woodabe or even Sarakholle.)


Faded but true painting of Temehu


Faded but true painting of Lebu

More recently the author of, Nomads of Niger, Marion van Offelen has noted the resemblance of Fulani attire, designs and tattoos to those of “Libyans” on paintings of Seti’s tomb (Van Offelen & Beckwith, 1984, p. 177). Old Kingdom dark-skinned representations of "Libyans" in profile are even more implicative of Fulani origins of the ancient Libyans.

Due to the numerous cultural similarities in hats hairstyles, attire and tattoo designs etc, due to the archeological evidences and the appearance of the earliest Libyans in the Old Kingdom, Bates was convinced that the original "Libyans" were related to C group Nubians and believed that both derived from certain neolithic pastoralist peoples of the Sahara the latter having some strong connection to the Capsians. Some of these people in the Delta region of Egypt were apparently mixed in the time of Seti with people of the sea.

The evidence suggests the neolithic Woodabe type nomads of the Sahara and North Africa moved into the Nile and East African area and not vice versa. The resemblances in rock art, tomb structures and other cultural resemblances extend into the Nubian and Nilotic region and eastward into the Horn and the Arabian peninsula. Anati and other rock art specialists considered the Saharan art to be earlier than similar art in the Rub al Khali and Syro-Arabian deserts where the depictions are often connected with implements of copper.

The history of Fulani is well documented and well-kept in the early Muslim period and among modern Fulani. Fulani bore the name Waritan, Warith or Barzu -
...west of the town of Bankalabin where live a tribe called the Banu Warith of the Sanhaja. Beyond the Lamtuna is a tribe of the Sanhaja known as Banu Goddala [text Juddala]who live in the neighborhood of the sea. These are the tribes who after the year 480/1048 rose to proclaim the truth to repel justice.The one who ...called the people to Holy War and made them proclaim the truth was 'Abd Allah b. Yasin." The latter was named al Jazula/Gazula a Tuareg tribe like the Lamtuna or todays Kel Auelimmiden of Niger.

Ibn Abi Zar said "The town of Tataklasin (Tiklasiyen) is inhabited by a Sanhaja tribe called B. Warith. They are upright people who are orthodox Muslims. They accepted Islam at the hands of Uqba ibn Nafi al Fihri..." Corpus of Early Arab Sources for West AFrican History p. 237

"The inhabitants of Tuklaseyen are a tribe of Sanhaja called Beni Warith who observe strictly the Sunna and teh precepts of Jihad. They were converted by Okba ibn Nafii al Fakri in the days of teh conquest o fteh maghrib, and wage holy war on teh non-Muslims of Sudan." from Annales Regum Mauritaniae translation J.C. Tornberg.

El Bekri apparently is translated by De Slane in his edition of El Bekri p. 164 as follows in Tuklaseyen "are a body of Muslims known as Beni Warith belonging to the Sanhaja beni Joddala who are next to the ocean." El-Bekri, Description de l'Afrique septentrionale, 1911.

It is likely the name Goddala is carried from the earlier Byzantine and Roman name Gaituli or Gaetulian who were in the time of the ancient Greek writers were claimed to be the most numerous of the Libyan (North African)tribes.


Josephus circa the 1st c. refers to the Gaituli as the people called Evilas who were brethren of the Astaborans of the Atbara region, and the Sabathes or Ssabaten (the likely Isabeten of Libya) and Sabaeans of the vicinity of Meroe. The New Complete Works of Josephus 1999 by W. Whiston and Paul Maier, p. 58

The Evilas were those the Greeks called Avalites the great traders of the port of Assab in Eritrea where the Afar and Danakil still live. Cushitic peoples like the Rendili wear the cockscomb of the Fulani.

(Juvenal with reference to a Getulian writes of him as "a Moor, so black you might not want to see him at midnight".)

Some Cushitic customs are similar to those of the WOodabe and other Fula peoples. Cushitic peoples like the Rendili, or example, wear the cockscomb of the Fulani.


Woodabe woman with hair in bun similar to Saharan depictions


Fulani make their hair into cockscomb crests in prehistoric Tassili


Bororo Fulani man with crest

The early very tall Neolithic Saharan Fulani or Futa people may have brought the Cushitic and/or AfroAsiatic culture into East Africa from North Africa and Sahara by the early Neolithic period and moved into Arabian desert where they are the well represented elongated "oval headed" "Negroids" of the rock art. Art shows they practiced mock ritual battle similar to the Maasa'i and Samburu.

The earliest name of these Warith or Fulani or Felata may be in the Barzu Fulitani of Constantine Algeria (or Mauretania Caesarea) mentioned in a text of Julius Honorius time. (Mommsen, T., Picot, E. & Mullenhoff, K. (1867). Memoires sur les Provinces Romaines, et sur les listes qui nous en sont parvenues depuis la division faite par Dioclétien jusqu'au commencement du cinquième siècle. Paris: Didier & Cies. pp. 28 and 62.)

The name Futa may also have some connection with that of Phut or Put which was also considered a name for certain ancient Libyans and considered a variant of the name Punt who were also connected with the Horn of Africa and Yemen.
 

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Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
 
I am not sure what you guys are talking about. I am part Fulani. Not sure how it is possible for the Fulani to be mixed. With the Taureg possibly but not a common thing. Is it really mixture or simply clinal distribution?

As far as I know the Fulani have been in West Africa since the green Sahara. I suppose there could have been Eurasian contact then but not enough to say that Fulani are a mixed people. Sure don't look mixed.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:
I am not sure what you guys are talking about. I am part Fulani. Not sure how it is possible for the Fulani to be mixed. With the Taureg possibly but not a common thing. Is it really mixture or simply clinal distribution?

As far as I know the Fulani have been in West Africa since the green Sahara. I suppose there could have been Eurasian contact then but not enough to say that Fulani are a mixed people. Sure don't look mixed.

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quote:

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It is also clear that the Fulani language is genetically related to languages in the Niger-Congo Superfamily and has no relationship to any languages spoken in Eurasia. Granted, analyses of the Fulani mtDNA and Y chromosome markers include some Eurasian genetics, but African genetic markers predominate among the Fulani (4, 5). The archaeogenetic and linguistic data make it clear that the Fulani are not of Eurasian origin as suggested by Scheinfeldt et al. (1).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:
I am not sure what you guys are talking about. I am part Fulani. Not sure how it is possible for the Fulani to be mixed. With the Taureg possibly but not a common thing. Is it really mixture or simply clinal distribution?

As far as I know the Fulani have been in West Africa since the green Sahara. I suppose there could have been Eurasian contact then but not enough to say that Fulani are a mixed people. Sure don't look mixed.

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There is no evidence the fulani were in West Africa during the green Sahara. At this time like most Niger-Congo speakers they lived in the Highlands of the sahara.

Just about all the traditions of the people living in West Africa, claim the original inhabitants were pygmies.

Cite the archaeological evidence supporting a Fulani presence in West Africa before 200-500BC.

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Originally posted by the lioness:
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Fulani are estimated to be about 8% haplogroups of Western Eurasian origin

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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16900879

. MtDNA of Fulani nomads and their genetic relationships to neighboring sedentary populations.

Cerný V, Hájek M, Bromová M, Cmejla R, Diallo I, Brdicka R.
Source
Department of Anthropology and Environment, Institute of Archeology, Czech Academy of Sciences, Prague

Abstract
Despite the large size of the contemporary nomadic Fulani population (roughly 13 million people), the genetic diversity and degree of differentiation of Fulanis compared to other sub-Saharan populations remain unknown. We sampled four Fulani nomad populations (n = 186) in three countries of sub-Saharan Africa (Chad, Cameroon, and Burkina Faso) and analyzed sequences of the first hypervariable segment of the mitochondrial DNA. Most of the haplotypes belong to haplogroups of West African origin, such as L1b, L3b, L3d, L2b, L2c, and L2d (79.6% in total), which are all well represented in each of the four geographically separated samples. The haplogroups of Western Eurasian origin, such as J1b, U5, H, and V, were also detected but in rather low frequencies (8.1% in total). As in African hunter-gatherers (Pygmies and Khoisan) and some populations from central Tunisia (Kesra and Zriba), three of the Fulani nomad samples do not reveal significant negative values of Fu's selective neutrality test. The multidimensional scaling of FST genetic distances of related sub-Saharan populations and the analysis of molecular variance (AMOVA) show clear and close relationships between all pairs of the four Fulani nomad samples, irrespective of their geographic origin. The only group of nomadic Fulani that manifests some similarities with geographically related agricultural populations (from Guinea-Bissau and Nigeria) comes from Tcheboua in northern Cameroon.

PMID: 16900879 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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Originally posted by NonProphet:

Nothing I nor Tishkoff stated or quoted previously contradicts your post. Tishkoff discovered at least 15 distinct AAC groups and Africa has the greatest heterogeneity and admixture of any continent. In fact most world populations are admixed and the 'purest' groups are isolated hunter-gatherers like the Khoesan or Pygmies.[/qb]

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
LOL This 'Pride' character is nothing more than a distgruntled white man greatly disturbed by the FACT that his white European people are mixed with on average one-third of them having black African ancestry, so in his solace he seeks blacks in Africa who have mixed-ancestry.

Too bad even the Fulani with their so-called "caucasoid" features are overwhelmingly of indigenous ancestry with populations in some areas having 100% homogeneity in African lineages as some have pointed out.

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