posted
Some months ago i read that the politic organizations of the Touaregs in Libya condamned the claims of the amazigh/berber organization (cma) that consider the tourags as berbers, but now i read that those of Mali also claim they are not Berbers.
Both of them, claim that the cma falsify the history, since they are arabs, their language and scripts have arabic roots. they even warned the cma that they would take juridical steps against them for falsifying their history.
posted
Unfortunately the page is in Arabic and I cannot follow what you are saying. I think it is understandable that among many of the populations that currently populate the Sahara and Sahel there are some with more Arabic identity than others. Lumping all of these people together as "Berbers" simply does not reflect reality. But again, if you know anything about Arabic identity you would also know that Arabic identity is not a true determination of ancestry. Hence, the Sudanese "Arabs" are more simply Africans than Arab. So how people identify themselves culturally does not necessarily reflect their origins physically.
So it makes sense that some of these people would identify as Arabs, like some do in Mauritania and elsewhere, while others don't. It isn't really strange to me at all. The reality is that Arabs have had an impact on the Sahel and this has changed a lot of the cultural identities in this region. And there are indeed those who identify and are truly Arab in this region and have adopted the traditions of Africans as well.
Now, all of that said, I think the contradiction in all of this is obvious. If these "Arabs" do not feel they are Berbers, then how can they claim to be Tuaregs? It is possible that some elements of these Tuaregs are Arabs and now are using the Tuareg rebellion as a means to push their agenda. But I am sure that this is not all Tuaregs and that most probably identify as African or Berber versus Arab.
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posted
The Arab or arabized nomads are not considered as berbers, like as the case of the western saharan people. But it is about those who speak touareg languages (tamasheq....).
They claim (you have to understand this) that they are the pre-islamic arabs who migrated from arabia to north africa. Therefor, their tamashek language and their script (tifinagh) has arabic roots. thus, with other word, they are the old arabs who occupied North africa in preislamic times, long time before the arab conquest.
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posted
But do you have a name or identity of persons who are saying this?
You have to understand that there are a lot of Tuaregs spread across quite a few countries in the Sahara (which is partly the reason for the ambitions for a state). So how significant is this view across all these people?
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Unfortunately the page is in Arabic and I cannot follow what you are saying. I think it is understandable that among many of the populations that currently populate the Sahara and Sahel there are some with more Arabic identity than others. Lumping all of these people together as "Berbers" simply does not reflect reality. But again, if you know anything about Arabic identity you would also know that Arabic identity is not a true determination of ancestry. Hence, the Sudanese "Arabs" are more simply Africans than Arab. So how people identify themselves culturally does not necessarily reflect their origins physically.
So it makes sense that some of these people would identify as Arabs, like some do in Mauritania and elsewhere, while others don't. It isn't really strange to me at all. The reality is that Arabs have had an impact on the Sahel and this has changed a lot of the cultural identities in this region. And there are indeed those who identify and are truly Arab in this region and have adopted the traditions of Africans as well.
Now, all of that said, I think the contradiction in all of this is obvious. If these "Arabs" do not feel they are Berbers, then how can they claim to be Tuaregs? It is possible that some elements of these Tuaregs are Arabs and now are using the Tuareg rebellion as a means to push their agenda. But I am sure that this is not all Tuaregs and that most probably identify as African or Berber versus Arab.
Hi Doug. Just go to the Google language site and type in the web page. Google will give you a translation.
The Arab or arabized nomads are not considered as berbers, like as the case of the western saharan people. But it is about those who speak touareg languages (tamasheq....).
They claim (you have to understand this) that they are the pre-islamic arabs who migrated from arabia to north africa. Therefor, their tamashek language and their script (tifinagh) has arabic roots. thus, with other word, they are the old arabs who occupied North africa in preislamic times, long time before the arab conquest.
Tamasheq elements who lay claim on "Arabic roots" are likely looking at this from the angle that the Arabs came from their kind, and not the other way around. This has a lot to do with trying to tie themselves to eponymous Muslim ancestors, due to the stronghold of Islam in these communities. This tradition of linking one's community to such eponymous Muslim ancestors is not strange or unique to sections of the Tamasheq. It occurs in other western African, and eastern African communities, where Islam has a stronghold. Of course, there is no single eponymous tradition amongst the Tamasheq.
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Tamasheq elements who lay claim on "Arabic roots" are likely looking at this from the angle that the Arabs came from their kind, and not the other way around. This has a lot to do with trying to tie themselves to eponymous Muslim ancestors, due to the stronghold of Islam in these communities. This tradition of linking one's community to such eponymous Muslim ancestors is not strange or unique to sections of the Tamasheq. It occurs in other western African, and eastern African communities, where Islam has a stronghold. Of course, there is no single eponymous tradition amongst the Tamasheq.
[/QUOTE]
This is a common line used to cut Arabs off from their Arab roots. I hope no one buys it anymore.Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: The Arab or arabized nomads are not considered as berbers, like as the case of the western saharan people. But it is about those who speak touareg languages (tamasheq....).
They claim (you have to understand this) that they are the pre-islamic arabs who migrated from arabia to north africa. Therefor, their tamashek language and their script (tifinagh) has arabic roots. thus, with other word, they are the old arabs who occupied North africa in preislamic times, long time before the arab conquest.
It is no wonder the Tuareg don't want to be considered related to other North African Berbers, because N. AFrican Berber nationalists (who have little true Berber blood0 don't want to recognize where the early Berbers came from or that the name Berber was first used for the Berr ibn Botr or Badran Dawasir(Botr) and Bahran (Berane) who lived on both sides of the Eritrean Sea settled in Somalia with other tribes of Banu Kenanah (Canaan) such as the ancient Banu Masikha (Mazike) of the Yemenite clans of Azd. Berbers and Arabians were one Afro-Asiatic people extending from the Gulf and Mesopotamia and colonizing the Maghreb in ancient times beginning long before the time of Solomon. Archeology, Tuareg tomb types and the so-called "Phoenician" elements in the Garamantian (Teda/Tedamensii) remnant locales are probably proof of this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xP-IahiQUPE&feature=related Mazigh these people in this video BERBERS of the Upper Atlas are true African Asiatics and not Eurasiatic listen to the music on this video in its entirety and tell me that you can not understand why these Masmuda like all Berber tribes, were called "the black Africans" by 11th century Iranian Nasir Khosrau and Abu Shama 13th c.even with their taking of white female concubines.
Other music sounds Berber music sounds very much like that of the Somali and Eritrean from this same youtuber. Why does their music sound so Central and East African while that of the far North sounds like Armenian or Balkan, Mazigh, (except for the Oran or other lands of dark-skinned Berbers, of course.)
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posted
They claim they are Arabs because they would be financied by the Libyan regime (alqaddafi) who has a militay scholarschip who consider the Berbers as vanished people, and they were all arabs (see his green book and speeches).
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: They claim they are Arabs because they would be financied by the Libyan regime (alqaddafi) who has a militay scholarschip who consider the Berbers as vanished people, and they were all arabs (see his green book and speeches).
And why did the Arab historians of the past "claim" that the Tuareg are Arabs???
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Tamasheq elements who lay claim on "Arabic roots" are likely looking at this from the angle that the Arabs came from their kind, and not the other way around. This has a lot to do with trying to tie themselves to eponymous Muslim ancestors, due to the stronghold of Islam in these communities. This tradition of linking one's community to such eponymous Muslim ancestors is not strange or unique to sections of the Tamasheq. It occurs in other western African, and eastern African communities, where Islam has a stronghold. Of course, there is no single eponymous tradition amongst the Tamasheq.
This is a common line used to cut Arabs off from their Arab roots.
Or alternatively, based on weight of evidence, it is used by some to facilitate Arab imperialism via bogus Arab nationalism, which is today seen as a "has been".
quote:I hope no one buys it anymore.
It's an African thing; you wouldn't understand.
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They claim they are Arabs because they would be financied by the Libyan regime (alqaddafi) who has a militay scholarschip who consider the Berbers as vanished people, and they were all arabs (see his green book and speeches).
While you may assume that for Libyan-based Tamasheq, it is hard to argue the same for western African-based Tamasheq.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Tamasheq elements who lay claim on "Arabic roots" are likely looking at this from the angle that the Arabs came from their kind, and not the other way around. This has a lot to do with trying to tie themselves to eponymous Muslim ancestors, due to the stronghold of Islam in these communities. This tradition of linking one's community to such eponymous Muslim ancestors is not strange or unique to sections of the Tamasheq. It occurs in other western African, and eastern African communities, where Islam has a stronghold. Of course, there is no single eponymous tradition amongst the Tamasheq.
This is a common line used to cut Arabs off from their Arab roots.
Or alternatively, based on weight of evidence, it is used by some to facilitate Arab imperialism via bogus Arab nationalism, which is today seen as a "has been".
quote:I hope no one buys it anymore.
It's an African thing; you wouldn't understand.
Explain. Test my understanding.
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: They claim they are Arabs because they would be financied by the Libyan regime (alqaddafi) who has a militay scholarschip who consider the Berbers as vanished people, and they were all arabs (see his green book and speeches).
And why did the Arab historians of the past "claim" that the Tuareg are Arabs???
As example, the arab historian Ibn Hazm said because they're liars. because they simply were not historians in modern sense, they were narrating everything and made no dinstinction between myth, reality, fact en fiction...., so it is naief to ask you what are their sources?! The lignuistic, the archeology, the genetica, anthropology.....?
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: They claim they are Arabs because they would be financied by the Libyan regime (alqaddafi) who has a militay scholarschip who consider the Berbers as vanished people, and they were all arabs (see his green book and speeches).
And why did the Arab historians of the past "claim" that the Tuareg are Arabs???
As example, the arab historian Ibn Hazm said because they're liars. because they simply were not historians in modern sense, they were narrating everything and made no dinstinction between myth, reality, fact en fiction...., so it is naief to ask you what are their sources?! The lignuistic, the archeology, the genetica, anthropology.....?
So the historians of the past are liars and you are the upholder of truth, right?
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posted
awlaad berry, sorry, but you missed the point. I said that Ibn Hazm (arab historian) stated there is no Berber origin in yem, only in the lies and the fictions of the yemenitic hisotorians:
""قال قوم: إنهم من بقايا ولد حام بن بنوح -عليه السلام- وادعت طوائف منهم إلى اليمن، إلى حمير، وبعضهم إلى بر بن قيس عيلان. وهذا باطل، لا شك فيه. وما علم النسابون لقيس عيلان ابناً اسمه بر أصلاً. ولا كان لحمير طريق إلى بلاد البربر، إلا في تكاذيب مؤرخي اليمن." (ابن حزم الأندلسي في جمهرة أنساب العرب) " http://amazigh-cause.blogspot.com/2010/07/blog-post_19.htmlPosts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: awlaad berry, sorry, but you missed the point. I said that Ibn Hazm (arab historian) stated there is no Berber origin in yem, only in the lies and the fictions of the yemenitic hisotorians:
""قال قوم: إنهم من بقايا ولد حام بن بنوح -عليه السلام- وادعت طوائف منهم إلى اليمن، إلى حمير، وبعضهم إلى بر بن قيس عيلان. وهذا باطل، لا شك فيه. وما علم النسابون لقيس عيلان ابناً اسمه بر أصلاً. ولا كان لحمير طريق إلى بلاد البربر، إلا في تكاذيب مؤرخي اليمن." (ابن حزم الأندلسي في جمهرة أنساب العرب) " http://amazigh-cause.blogspot.com/2010/07/blog-post_19.html
But we aren't talking about the Berbers here. We are talking about the Tuaregs, who are Sanhaja, and Arab historians all agree that the Sanhaja are not Berbers, but Himyarite Arabs who lived amongst the Berbers.
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quote:It's an African thing; you wouldn't understand.
Explain. Test my understanding.
There is nothing to explain. I'm simply saying that you are surprised by and emotionally-reluctant to accept the fact I brought to attention about sections of Africans, and not just elements of Tamasheq, who have become staunch followers of Islam, conjuring up legends that link them to Arabic eponymous ancestors that may ultimately relate them to sacred personalities of Islam. It is understandable that this fact eludes you, because you are an outsider, not an African.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:It's an African thing; you wouldn't understand.
Explain. Test my understanding.
There is nothing to explain. I'm simply saying that you are surprised by and emotionally-reluctant to accept the fact I brought to attention about sections of Africans, and not just elements of Tamasheq, who have become staunch followers of Islam, conjuring up legends that link them to Arabic eponymous ancestors that may ultimately relate them to sacred personalities of Islam. It is understandable that this fact eludes you, because you are an outsider, not an African.
Who told you that they are just "conjured up legends"??? What gives you the authority to call them liars? What proof do you have that what they say about THEIR origin isn't true? And do you also call Jewish people's claim that they are Hebrews "conjured up legends"?
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Who told you that they are just "conjured up legends"??? What gives you the authority to call them liars?
Easy. Experience of being African, not an outsider with an emotional-vested interest in making people I know little about, into something that they are not. That gives me the authority. People have created mythical legends since times immemorial. If you call that lying, then that is what it shall be.
quote: What proof do you have that what they say about THEIR origin isn't true?
Why, how you verify a person's origin? Genetics, of course. Plus, languages peculiar and original to these groups are not spoken by Arabs. Common sense, is what it should be.
quote: And do you also call Jewish people's claim that they are Hebrews "conjured up legends"?
Hebrews are actual historical people, with empirical evidence attesting to their existence, and their eventual fall at conquest. That said, I do think certain groups who call themselves Hebrews today are also conjuring up legends.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Who told you that they are just "conjured up legends"??? What gives you the authority to call them liars?
Easy. Experience of being African, not an outsider with an emotional-vested interest in making people I know little about, into something that they are not. That gives me the authority. People have created mythical legends since times immemorial. If you call that lying, then that is what it shall be.
Sorry buddy. That's not enough, so you have NO authority.
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[QUOTE] What proof do you have that what they say about THEIR origin isn't true?
Why, how you verify a person's origin? Genetics, of course. Plus, languages peculiar and original to these groups are not spoken by Arabs. Common sense, is what it should be.
What "genetic proof" do you have? And language isn't proof.
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[QUOTE] And do you also call Jewish people's claim that they are Hebrews "conjured up legends"?
Hebrews are actual historical people, with empirical evidence attesting to their existence, and their eventual fall at conquest. That said, I do think certain groups who call themselves Hebrews today are also conjuring up legends.
Like I figured, you don't think that the Jews are "just conjuring up legends". For them there is a different rule. You believe them. But those backward people in what you call "Africa" can't know anything about their origin, so what THEY say are "just conjured up legends". But what the light-skinned civilized Jews say is "truth with empirical evidence attesting to their existence, and their eventual fall at conquest". Everything is clear now Explorer.
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Sorry buddy. That's not enough, so you have NO authority.
You are entitled to disagree with a FACT as you see fit; that's your choice. It's harder to produce a counter-case, however. You gave me the former -- the emotional reluctance, and now I am opened to seeing the latter -- objectivity.
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry:
What "genetic proof" do you have? And language isn't proof.
Your claim is out of the ordinary, it is the one that needs proof; which is that groups original to Africa, are not Africans after all. They are Arabs, you say. Prove it, genetically.
When a language is original and restricted to a group, that doesn't serve as proof? Are you ok?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:It's an African thing; you wouldn't understand.
Explain. Test my understanding.
There is nothing to explain. I'm simply saying that you are surprised by and emotionally-reluctant to accept the fact I brought to attention about sections of Africans, and not just elements of Tamasheq, who have become staunch followers of Islam, conjuring up legends that link them to Arabic eponymous ancestors that may ultimately relate them to sacred personalities of Islam. It is understandable that this fact eludes you, because you are an outsider, not an African.
Do you think the Darod clan of Somalia originated in the Arabian peninsula or that was one of those myths you were talking about?
If it is possible, it seems that 1000 years or so beginning with intermarriage with the first indigenous Somali woman would have followed, each generation becoming less and less Arab/Yemeni
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[QUOTE] And do you also call Jewish people's claim that they are Hebrews "conjured up legends"?
Hebrews are actual historical people, with empirical evidence attesting to their existence, and their eventual fall at conquest. That said, I do think certain groups who call themselves Hebrews today are also conjuring up legends.
Like I figured, you don't think that the Jews are "just conjuring up legends".
You figured wrong. Read what you figured and then read what I said. Tell me there isn't a difference.
Your analogy is like saying that I should deny Arabs exist, on the account of not accusing certain folks of "conjuring up legends". Of course, I did not say such thing.
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Do you think the Darod clan of Somalia originated in the Arabian peninsula or that was one of those myths you were talking about?
Why are you asking me this. Did I say they originated in the Arabian peninsula? Or are you just being your usual trolling-self. Make pointless interruptions.
quote: If it is possible, it seems that 1000 years or so beginning with intermarriage with the first indigenous Somali woman would have followed, each generation becoming less and less Arab/Yemeni
I need a lot more than your usual a priori, "if it is possible". I need your evidence.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Do you think the Darod clan of Somalia originated in the Arabian peninsula or that was one of those myths you were talking about?
Why are you asking me this. Did I say they originated in the Arabian peninsula? Or are you just being your usual trolling-self. Make pointless interruptions.
It's not pointless and I didn't say you said it. In fact you would be likely to say that people who claim it to be true are mythologizing. Maybe you were unaware that members of Darod clan Somalia/Kenya/Ethiopia one of the largest clans if not the largest in Somalia, members claim that the clan goes back to the ancestry of Aqeel (uncle and protector of Muhammad) one of his five sons, Muhammad ibn Aqeel who had fled to Somlia in 9 or 10th CE, married a local woman and formed the Darod.
This could be interpreted as an example of what you are saying, or it could be true.
now get off your high horse
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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It is pointless, if I did not say it. Why would I think it?
quote: In fact you would be likely to say that people who claim it to be true are mythologizing.
As far as I can tell, the Somalis in question are just as Somali as any other Somali, unless of course, you know something substantive about them, that I am not aware of.
quote:
Maybe you were unaware that members of Darod clan Somalia/Kenya/Ethiopia one of the largest clans if not the largest in Somalia, members claim that the clan goes back to the ancestry of Aqeel (uncle and protector of Muhammad) one of his five sons, Muhammad ibn Aqeel who had fled to Somlia in 9 or 10th CE, married a local woman and formed the Darod.
Why would I be unaware of this?
quote: This could be interpreted as an example of what you are saying, or it could be true.
now get off your high horse
That high horse would be you, as soon as you can give me a good reason why I should entertain your pointless questions.
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Sorry buddy. That's not enough, so you have NO authority.
You are entitled to disagree with a FACT as you see fit; that's your choice. It's harder to produce a counter-case, however. You gave me the former -- the emotional reluctance, and now I am opened to seeing the latter -- objectivity.
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry:
What "genetic proof" do you have? And language isn't proof.
Your claim is out of the ordinary, it is the one that needs proof; which is that groups original to Africa, are not Africans after all. They are Arabs, you say. Prove it, genetically.
When a language is original and restricted to a group, that doesn't serve as proof? Are you ok?
First, it's not my claim. It's the assertion of the very people themselves and what makes their assertion "out of the ordinary" to you? They say that they aren't original to "Africa". Why is that so hard to believe??? What do you know about the language of the Fulani? What proof do you have that it isn't related to any language in the region? What genetic proof do you have that the Fulani are not the descendants of Uqba from Arabia and Bajjo Mangu? They say that are. If you say that they aren't, the burden of proof is on YOU. What you said about the Jews is clear. I will repeat. I asked you if you believe that the Jews today who have occupied Palestine and who claim that they are Hebrews are conjuring up legends or do you believe them. Your answer was:
"Hebrews are actual historical people, with empirical evidence attesting to their existence, and their eventual fall at conquest. That said, I do think certain groups who call themselves Hebrews today are also conjuring up legends."
Can you explain what you mean by this if you don't mean what I understand you to mean?
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First, it's not my claim. It's the assertion of the very people themselves and what makes their assertion "out of the ordinary" to you?
Let's be clear. These folks generally don't claim to be Arabs. They only cook up legends about eponymous ancestors that are supposed to have lived on the Arabian plate. There is a difference.
If you recall, I said that this trend of cooking up mythical Arabian ancestors that link said African groups to sacred figures of Islam is not "out of the norm" in Africa. That is the opposite of what you are reading into my posts, i.e. "out of the ordinary". What I'm saying that is "out of the ordinary", is passing as reality, that said Africans are not actually original to Africa. This is what I'm requesting you to prove, because you say that they actually descend from Arabian figures, and not from indigenous African ancestors.
quote: They say that they aren't original to "Africa". Why is that so hard to believe???
For reasons already stated. Being familiar with the territory, genetics and language.
quote: What do you know about the language of the Fulani?
1)It belongs in the Niger-Congo superphylum. 2)It is closely related to Wolof and other Atlantic western African language phylums than any other language phylum. 3)The language is unique and original to the Fula. 4) The language is not spoken by Arabs or any other outsiders.
Now, you tell me what you know about the Fulani language.
quote: What proof do you have that it isn't related to any language in the region?
Why would I do that? If you assume that it isn't related to any language in the region, it is incumbent on you to proof that, not misplace the burden onto me.
quote: What genetic proof do you have that the Fulani are not the descendants of Uqba from Arabia and Bajjo Mangu?
Their gene pool, as supported by their traditions and language, is predominantly of western African provenance. What's your proof otherwise.
quote: They say that are. If you say that they aren't, the burden of proof is on YOU.
It is called a legend. It's safe to say that you are unaware of what a legend is. The burden of proof lies on you to demonstrate the factual merit of a legend cloaked in myth. Furthermore, as I said, different factions of a single ethnic group may even come up with distinct legends. Alas, you were unaware of this, because you are an outsider bent on becoming an armchair expert on a continent you've likely never even set foot on.
quote: What you said about the Jews is clear.
Apparently not too clear, as you managed to misread it.
quote: I will repeat. I asked you if you believe that the Jews today who have occupied Palestine and who claim that they are Hebrews are conjuring up legends or do you believe them. Your answer was:
I see that you've decided to reword your original post, by now including this: "who have occupied Palestine".
quote: "Hebrews are actual historical people, with empirical evidence attesting to their existence, and their eventual fall at conquest. That said, I do think certain groups who call themselves Hebrews today are also conjuring up legends."
Can you explain what you mean by this if you don't mean what I understand you to mean?
I mean by it, as it is spelled out. The problem is, you are trying to distort it, unsuccessfully.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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First, it's not my claim. It's the assertion of the very people themselves and what makes their assertion "out of the ordinary" to you?
Let's be clear. These folks generally don't claim to be Arabs. They only cook up legends about eponymous ancestors that are supposed to have lived on the Arabian plate. There is a difference.
Having an ancestor who was from the Arabian Peninsula means of Arab origin. You aren't making any sense.
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
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Trying to make Fulanis non African will be hard to accomplish. One thing you should Know is that the Fulani in Nigeria have E3a(E1b1a) at 100%. This Marker is commonly linked with West Africans. Also you must understand that Fula language is linked with other Niger Congo languages. Even though fulani stretch from Senegal to Sudan, There language that they speak stayed the same. We also have pics created on stone of Pre Fulas who resemble Wodaabe(Fulani people) in West Africa long before the coming of Arabs or Islam. The Fulani are not Arabs and trying to claim them as Arabs will just lead you down a wrong path of learning about these people.
Remember they Carry West African lineages at 100% in some cases so the genetic side has told us that Fulani are really linked with other West Africa Groups like the Wolof, Songhai, etc.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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If you recall, I said that this trend of cooking up mythical Arabian ancestors that link said African groups to sacred figures of Islam is not "out of the norm" in Africa. That is the opposite of what you are reading into my posts, i.e. "out of the ordinary". What I'm saying that is "out of the ordinary", is passing as reality, that said Africans are not actually original to Africa. This is what I'm requesting you to prove, because you say that they actually descend from Arabian figures, and not from indigenous African ancestors.
This is what they say and I believe them and I don't see anything "out of the ordinary" about what they say, so I have no reason to call them liars and to call what has been believed about their origin for 1400 years a lie. You are calling them liars, so you have to prove that they are liars.
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[QUOTE] What do you know about the language of the Fulani?
1)It belongs in the Niger-Congo superphylum. 2)It is closely related to Wolof and other Atlantic western African language phylums than any other language phylum. 3)The language is unique and original to the Fula. 4) The language is not spoken by Arabs or any other outsiders.
Now, you tell me what you know about the Fulani language.
It's a language that developed in the region and is spoken by the Fulani, but wasn't spoken by the father of the Fulani - Uqba from Arabia.
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In this study the Fula are nearly 80% west African. Now this is one study but it's good to learn a little about the people. Fulani are not from Arabia, They are overwelmingly West African.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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[QUOTE] They say that are. If you say that they aren't, the burden of proof is on YOU.
It is called a legend. It's safe to say that you are unaware of what a legend is.
It's not called legend. It's called genealogy. But genealogy is an Arab thing that you know nothing about.
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quote:Having an ancestor who was from the Arabian Peninsula means of Arab origin. You aren't making any sense.
This is what I mean by your handicap of not understanding Africans, because you are an outsider trying to pose as an expert, i.e. an armchair expert.
quote:This is what they say and I believe them and I don't see anything "out of the ordinary" about what they say, so I have no reason to call them liars and to call what has been believed about their origin for 1400 years a lie. You are calling them liars, so you have to prove that they are liars.
Your line of thinking is very strange. Legends serve a cultural purpose, and so, I wouldn't simply dismiss the bearers as "liars". This is like calling folks of religious faith "liars", even if what religious texts say do not withstand the scrutiny of empirical evidence. You act like you are new to the human race.
quote: It's a language that developed in the region and is spoken by the Fulani, but wasn't spoken by the father of the Fulani - Uqba from Arabia.
The keywords in your post: "developed in the region" and "spoken by the Fulani". If the Fulani are "Arabs", as you like to fantasize, then why is their Language "Fulani", and why isn't this language spoken by any other but the Fulani? Don't you get a sense that this kind of line of thinking should even get yourself to start laughing at you?
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Alas, you were unaware of this, because you are an outsider bent on becoming an armchair expert on a continent you've likely never even set foot on.
I've lived on the continent you call "Africa" most of my life. Where do YOU live???
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[QUOTE] I will repeat. I asked you if you believe that the Jews today who have occupied Palestine and who claim that they are Hebrews are conjuring up legends or do you believe them. Your answer was:
I see that you've decided to reword your original post, by now including this: "who have occupied Palestine".
quote: "Hebrews are actual historical people, with empirical evidence attesting to their existence, and their eventual fall at conquest. That said, I do think certain groups who call themselves Hebrews today are also conjuring up legends."
Can you explain what you mean by this if you don't mean what I understand you to mean?
I mean by it, as it is spelled out. The problem is, you are trying to distort it, unsuccessfully.
What do you mean. Explain. And remember that Yiddish isn't Hebrew.
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It's not called legend. It's called genealogy. But genealogy is an Arab thing that you know nothing about.
Take the Tamasheq for instance. They have at least two different legends amongst them. Yet, going by your logic, we should dismiss the legend that contradicts the mythical eponymous ancestor from Arabia. As an objective observer, I can explain why this is. Local variants of the legend likely predate the introduction of Islam. The legend involving an eponymous Arabian ancestor likely came about as a result of Islamic influence. The Tamasheq are just an example of many.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Trying to make Fulanis non African will be hard to accomplish. One thing you should Know is that the Fulani in Nigeria have E3a(E1b1a) at 100%. This Marker is commonly linked with West Africans. Also you must understand that Fula language is linked with other Niger Congo languages. Even though fulani stretch from Senegal to Sudan, There language that they speak stayed the same. We also have pics created on stone of Pre Fulas who resemble Wodaabe(Fulani people) in West Africa long before the coming of Arabs or Islam. The Fulani are not Arabs and trying to claim them as Arabs will just lead you down a wrong path of learning about these people.
Remember they Carry West African lineages at 100% in some cases so the genetic side has told us that Fulani are really linked with other West Africa Groups like the Wolof, Songhai, etc.
Peace
Haplogroups J and E are the most common Haplogroups on the Arabian Peninsula and are considered Arab haplogroups. And most people in the area called "Africa" who carry E1b1a claim an origin from the Arabian Peninsula.
So what if the resemble people on some paintings. Is THAT your proof???
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Their tradition says they are from Arabia. What's un-Arabian about their gene pool???
For one, they are predominantly of hg E clades, which are generally rare in Arabia, like say M2 and E-M33 clades. Their maternal gene pool is largely western African, and even though this is western African, nomadic Fula have clades distinctive only to them and from the surrounding sedentary western African groups. Sure, there are outward Fulani who possess the familiar R clade, but even these are rare outside of Africa, the Arabian peninsula included.
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry:
I've lived on the continent you call "Africa" most of my life. Where do YOU live???
Where? Being there all your life, do you speak the local language? And how come what I'm telling seems like news to you. I am not one of those personalities who take for granted what someone claims behind a keyboard.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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In this study the Fula are nearly 80% west African. Now this is one study but it's good to learn a little about the people. Fulani are not from Arabia, They are overwelmingly West African.
Peace
You are starting off wrong. We Arabs use y-DNA to talk about origin - not mtdna. We are patrilineal.
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Their tradition says they are from Arabia. What's un-Arabian about their gene pool???
For one, they are predominantly of hg E clades, which are generally rare in Arabia, like say M2 and E-M33 clades. Their maternal gene pool is largely western African, and even though this is western African, nomadic Fula have clades distinctive only to them and from the surrounding sedentary western African groups. Sure, there are outward Fulani who possess the familiar R clade, but even these are rare outside of Africa, the Arabian peninsula included.
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry:
I've lived on the continent you call "Africa" most of my life. Where do YOU live???
Where? Being there all your life, do you speak the local language? And how come what I'm telling seems like news to you. I am not one of those personalities who take for granted what someone claims behind a keyboard.
Not news, but nonsense. You can believe what you want. I don't have time to debate you further.
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