Post any ancient or medieval depiction of NW africans but at the same be as informative as possible when it comes to the source.
Let's start
Hellenistic art, bronze head of a noble north african from the temple of Apollo in Cyrene, Libya , 300 B.C., British Museum :
Marble portrait head from a statue of a berber boy in cyrene (100 - 120 A.D.), British Museum :
Roman bronze cavalry mask showing the portrait of a Numidian Moorish Prince. Late 1st-Early 2nd century AD :
Thabraca, double tomb portrait mosaic (martyrs' chapel) from the Vth century A.D., Bardo Museum, Tunis :
Thabraca, tomb portrait mosaic of grain measurer (Urban basilica cemetery) from the Vth century A.D., Bardo Museum, Tunis :
Thabraca, tomb portrait mosaic of Iovinus (Urban basilica cemetery enclosure), Vth century A.D., Bardo Museum, Tunis :
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
Thabraca, tomb portrait mosaic of Natalica, Vth century A.D., Bardo museum, Tunis :
Victor the Moor, Moorish martyr who lived during the third century A.D., Here mosaic made during the IVth century A.D. from one of the chapel of the basilica Sant'Ambrogio in Milan :
Bust of a young berber from Volubilis, IIth-IIIth century A.D., Museum of Rabat :
Heads of dignitaries, Kerkouane, Tunisia, 3rd century B.C. :
Marble head of a man with a beard From Volubilis, 2nd century B.C., Museum of Rabat :
Mortuary mask of a man from el jem, Tunisia, IIId century A.D. :
Statue of Crepereia Innula from Ammaedara, Tunisia, white marble, 150-175 A.D. :
Property of a farm manager from Thabraca, IVth century A.D., Bardo Museum :
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
Oldest depiction of Saint Augustine, VIth century A.D., Latran palace, Rome :
Roman harvest and hunt in Cherchell (Caesarea of Mauretania), Museum of Cherchell :
Bust of the emperor Macrinus, early third century A.D.,Palazzo Nuovo, Museum Capitolini, Rome :
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
Bust of Massinissa, king of Numidia, preserved in the Hall of the Philosophers at the Capitoline Museum, Rome - Date of Photo 1890 ca. - Date of Artwork II sec. a.C. - Location Rome - :
Bust of the Emperor Septimius Severus, 196-200 A.D. :
Statue of the numidian king Syphax, Vatican Museum :
Bust of the moorish king Juba I, Louvre Museum :
Bust of the moorish king Juba II (25 B.C. - 23 A.D.) :
some coins depicting him :
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Drusilla, princess of Mauretania. This head is either Drusilla the elder or the younger.
Drusilla the elder (born about 8 BC) was daughter to Cleopatra Selene (daughter to Cleopatra VII) and king Juba II.
Drusilla the younger (38-79 AD) was daughter to Ptolemaios of Mauretania and his wife Julia Urania. Ptolemaios was son to Juba II and Kleopatra Selene.
Bust of Ptolemy of Mauretania in the Vatican Museums (Museo Chiaramonti). Ptolemy was brother to Drusilla the elder and father to Drusilla the younger.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
@Archeopteryx I didn't post him because his mother was Cleopatra Selene II therefore making him only half north african while drusilla would logically be around 75% north african
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Yes, she would be c 75% North African.
I have not yet found other busts or statues of her.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Coin depicting Jugurtha, king of Numidia (160-104 BCE)
bust of a woman from Hadrumète, Tunisia, 250 A.D., Louvre museum
Some busts from Tipasa, Algeria :
Moorish and numidian coins :
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: @Archeopteryx I didn't post him because his mother was Cleopatra Selene II therefore making him only half north african while drusilla would logically be around 75% north african
Dude, your own source contradicts you:
quote: The elder Drusilla was the youngest child of queen Cleopatra Selene (II) and king Juba II and a sister to king Ptolemy of Mauretania. Cleopatra of Mauretania could have been her possible elder sister. Her father Juba II of Numidia, was an only son to king Juba I of Numidia (a king of Numidia of Berber descent from North Africa, who was an ally to Roman General Pompey the Great). Her mother Cleopatra Selene (II) was an only daughter to Ptolemaic Greek queen Cleopatra VII of Egypt from her marriage to Roman Triumvir Mark Antony. Drusilla was of Berber, Greek and Roman ancestry.
The younger Drusilla was a daughter and only child of king Ptolemy of Mauretania and queen Julia Urania. Drusilla was most probably born in Caesaria, the capital of the Kingdom of Mauretania (modern Cherchell, Algeria) in the Roman Empire. She was born about 38 AD and was probably named in honor of Roman Emperor Caligula’s sister Julia Drusilla, who died at that time.
Drusilla is of Berber, Greek, Roman and possibly Aramaic (Syrian) ancestry. Her paternal grandparents were queen Cleopatra Selene (II) and king Juba II of Mauretania. Her great grandparents, were Greek Ptolemaic queen Cleopatra VII of Egypt, Roman Triumvir Mark Antony and African king Juba I of Numidia.
Her father was executed in Rome in 40 AD. Mauretania was annexed by Rome and later became two Roman provinces. Drusilla was probably raised in the Imperial family in Rome. Around 53 AD, the Roman Emperor Claudius, arranged her to marry former Greek freeman and Roman Governor of Judea Antonius Felix. Between 54 AD - 56 AD, Felix divorced her to marry a Judean princess.
Drusilla married king Sohaemus of Emesa. They had at least two children, a son Gaius Julius Alexio (a future king of Emesa) and a daughter Iotapi (an ancestor to queen of Palmyra, Zenobia). For more information, about the Emesan Royal Family, see article Royal Family of Emesa.
These people were assimilated into Roman culture and not promoting any sort of "berber" identity.
Your own sources are saying there was a lot of mixture in the Roman era.
quote: Antalas was a Berber tribal leader who played a major role in the wars of the Byzantine Empire against the Berber tribes in Africa. Antalas and his tribe, the Frexenses of Byzacena who are today called "Frechich" in Tunisia, initially served the Byzantines as allies, but after 544 switched sides. With the final Byzantine victory in 548, Antalas and his Christian tribe once again became Byzantine subjects. The main sources on his life are the epic poem Iohannis of Flavius Cresconius Corippus and the Histories of the Wars of Procopius of Caesarea.
quote: The Vandal Kingdom or Kingdom of the Vandals and Alans was established by the Germanic Vandal people under Gaiseric. It ruled in North Africa and the Mediterranean from 435 to 534 AD.
In 429 AD, the Vandals, estimated to number 80,000 people, had crossed by boat from Hispania to North Africa. They advanced eastward, conquering the coastal regions of what is now Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia. In 435, the Roman Empire, then ruling North Africa, allowed the Vandals to settle in the provinces of Numidia and Mauretania when it became clear that the Vandal army could not be defeated by Roman military forces. In 439 the Vandals renewed their advance eastward and captured Carthage, the most important city of North Africa. The fledgling kingdom then conquered the Roman-ruled islands of Mallorca, Sicily, Sardinia, and Corsica in the western Mediterranean. In the 460s, the Romans launched two unsuccessful military expeditions by sea in an attempt to overthrow the Vandals and reclaim North Africa. The conquest of North Africa by the Vandals was a blow to the beleaguered Western Roman Empire as North Africa was a major source of revenue and a supplier of grain (mostly wheat) to the city of Rome.
Although primarily remembered for the sack of Rome in 455 and their persecution of Nicene Christians in favor of Arian Christianity, the Vandals were also patrons of learning. Grand building projects continued, schools flourished, and North Africa fostered many of the most innovative writers and natural scientists of the late Latin-speaking Western Roman Empire.
The Vandal Kingdom ended in 534, when it was conquered by Belisarius in the Vandalic War and incorporated into the Eastern Roman Empire (or Byzantine Empire). The surviving Vandals either assimilated into the indigenous African population or were dispersed among the Byzantine territories.
Of course the "north Africans" have been resisting these invaders all along going back even to Carthage itself but they ultimately failed to stop Rome from conquering and many joined the Romans.
Just for context, the regions in question are North of Cairo in Egypt.
yes berber fought each other, vandals didn't mix with locals since they were arians while locals were catholics and they only lived around Carthage, and I don't see why you equate one princess marrying a foreigner to be "lot of mixture in the roman era".
If you want to play this game no problem :
About Vandals :
quote:In the sources, there is no indication of a promotion to "Germanness", whereas in the Roman Empire, every peregrine had the vocation to become a citizen. Moreover, religious hostility prohibited mixed marriages, so that one can say that two peoples coexisted in the kingdom. [Some authors, such as F. Martroye, assert that the Vandal kings were hostile to mixed marriages for fear of seeing the discipline of their warriors dissolve in the Africitas. One is all the more justified to doubt the homogeneity of the society - it was limited in fact to the fusion between Vandals and Alains - that it is difficult to believe in a "collaboration of class", insofar as the aristocracy, evicted and despoiled, kept resentment to the Vandals even if some of its members had escaped the exile. Even those who had "collaborated" loyally with the Vandals, such as the proconsul of Carthage Victorianus, whose devotion to the king is remembered, were finally eliminated for religious reasons.
Jean-Marie Lassère, Africa quasi Roma, pp. 671
quote:The only surviving estimate, however unreliable it may be, places the number of Vandals – ‘old, young, children, slaves and masters’, ‘even he whom the belly of the womb poured forth into this [world’s] light that very day’ – at 80,000 at the time of their passage from Spain into Mauretania in 429. This would have represented only a fraction of the population of Carthage, let alone the rest of Roman Africa."
Jonathan Conant, Staying Roman - Conquest and Identity in Africa and the Mediterranean, p. 19-20
They were defeated by Byzantines in 533 and expelled from Africa ( the last king Gelimer was sent to Galatia, his soldiers were enslaved and the elite of it was transferred in the East : one part incorporated into the imperial guard in Constantinople and the rest formed five units of cavalry called "Vandali Iustiniani" and were installed along the shores of the Euphrates)
Now for those who stayed especially women this is what happened :
quote: On the battlefield of Tricamarum, many of them had fallen to the power of the soldiers: these remained the slaves of their new masters. By virtue of the same law of war, the women and girls taken in the supreme struggle were attributed to the victor and most of them married Byzantine soldiers
Charles Diehl, L'Afrique Byzantine Histoire de la domination byzantine en Afrique (533-709), p. 37
quote:The Byzantine military authorities were initially willing to let rank-and-file soldiers keep the Vandal women and children that they had enslaved in the wake of their military victories and, as we have seen, even to force their female captives into coerced marriages.10 Vandal fighting men, on the other hand, were disarmed, sent under guard to Carthage, and eventually deported to Constantinople before being sent to fight for the emperor along the Persian frontier."
Jonathan Conant, Staying Roman - Conquest and Identity in Africa and the Mediterranean, p.255
Now as for Romans :
quote:It has thus been argued that soldiers were likely to have found partners among local,non-Roman women; their children, then, would be good candidates for a pool of people among whom a hybrid ethnic identity might emerge. Examples might include Carteia in Spain and Lugdunum Convenarum in France, both said to be populated by children of Roman soldiers and local women (Woolf 2011: 18). However, in the case of North Africa, such evidence as we have for such relationships—typically commemorative epitaphs—shows virtually no such mixing; in fact, the chief pool of women to whom soldiers had recourse were the daughters of their comrades or predecessors (Cherry 1998: 101–40)."
Jeremy Mcinerney, Ethnicity in the ancient mediterranean, pp. 120
quote:In fact, if we seek to determine the numerical importance of the contingent of Roman or Italian immigrants in Africa, we have every reason to admit that it was small: and it does not grow much even if we add the non-Italian immigrants. These immigrants include senior civil servants, but the junior staff of the offices are recruited locally; a few large landowners, but most often they reside in Rome and are represented in Africa by stewards and farmers, many of local origin; a few Italian, Oriental or Spanish merchants in the cities of the coast and in a few large localities in the interior such as Cirta. These are contributions that do not change the Berber character [...] "In sum, the army brought into Africa, in the first century, a certain number of men from the other provinces of the Empire. But the proportion of this non-African element became weaker and weaker until, around 150, it was practically zero. It was Africans who kept order in Africa, on behalf of Rome. "
L'afrique romaine de Louis Leschi
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
Indigenous canary islanders as depicted by Leonardo Torriani in 1592 :
Island of Gran Canaria :
Island of La Gomera :
Island of El Hierro :
Indigenous Canary islanders depicted by Alonso Fernandez de Lugo (1455-1525) :
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
Eastern Libyans as depicted by ancient egyptians :
faience_tile of a Libyan_chief during the time of Ramesses III :
In another painting (Fig. 49) a Libyan (Rebu) chief is shown, followed by a sword- bearer, an archer, and a tribesman who bears no arms (from the book of Oric bates) :
Collection of Libyan types from the egyptian monuments (from the book of Oric bates on the eastern libyans) :
Stick with a libyan prisoner (I think from tutankhamun's tomb) :
4 libyan chiefs of the Temehu confederation depicted in the Tomb of Seti I (19th dynasty) :
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
Abd el-Ouahed ben Messaoud, moroccan ambassador to the court of Queen Elizabeth I of England in 1600
Mohammed Ben Ali Abgali, moroccan Ambassador to Great Britain, from 14 August 1725 to February 1727
The entry of the Moroccan ambassadors into Vienna Austro-Hungarian Empire 1783 :
Mohammed Tenim, Moroccan ambassador at the italian comedy, 1682 :
Siege of Syracuse, Sicily, by the Aghlabids, 878 AD :
Siege of Messina, Sicilia, 842-843ad and painted in XIth century :
Mohammed ben Hadou, Moroccan ambassador to the english court in 1682 :
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
Interesting, however you did not mention the Melano Gaetuli.
quote:"We strongly believe that Ptolemy’s Talubath corresponds to the modern oasis of Tabelbala. According to Jean-Pierre Rossie [16], its inhabitants speak a language of their own, completely different from the languages of the surrounding nomadic or settled Saharan populations. Their language is of Black African origin but influenced by Amazigh and Arabic languages. Indeed, Ptolemy calls a nearby tribe “Melanogaetuli”. The Greek word “melanos” means “black”.
(Ptolemy’s West Africa Reconstructed, Lyudmila M. Filatova, Dmitri A. Gusev1 and Sergey K. Stafeyev)
quote:Originally posted October 10, 2011 by alTakruri:
Juba II madness
_______ Juba II Numidian African ____________ Typical Euro-Roman
The Numidian differs from the European in all the stereotypical hair and facial features.
* The hair is thicker and "wilder." * The eye is larger and rounder. * The cheek bones are higher and more protruding. * The nose is flatter and broader with * nostrils tending to round/oval rather than oblong/slit shape. *The lips are thicker and more everted.
Some similarity in features but hair quite different (assuming the hair on the sculpture is accurate)
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Some similarity in features but hair quite different (assuming the hair on the sculpture is accurate)
Amazing you found this info on him. We can't expect to find someone 100% similar. But we know the combination of traits is within this ethnic group and that's the point I was trying to make.
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Just for context, the regions in question are North of Cairo in Egypt.
from the side photos of the very same sculpture cannot inform of the nose wideness So if you look at the profile photo of the same sculpture it gives the illusion he is much closer to a typical Roman and this is what would happen with a coin also. Was this artist ever in the physical presence of Juba II? It is not known but whatever the case may be the artist seems to intend to depict a type that is outside of the typical Greco-Roman and does resemble that Tuareg boy This photo virtually a front view and without the heavier shadow is a bit shocking how wide the nose actually is
Most of the Numidian/Mauretania king coins look like Romans. The thing with this one, Juba II's father, Juba I is that it looks peculiar, that hair on a classical featured face It seems kind of suspicious, like Elizabeth Daynes had gone down there in a time machine
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
Amazing you found this info on him. We can't expect to find someone 100% similar.
Nice AI search engine.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Ish why are you always posting kids?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Mosaic, Tipaza Algeria
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Ish why are you always posting kids?
These children are usually physically unadulterated. They are what they are, the hair texture is what it is, untempered.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Berber descent Moroccan-Dutch kickboxer Badr Hari has more similarities.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
Mohamed Toufiris, "captain of Salé, ambassador of Morocco, late XVIIth century (source is BNF) :
Ambassador of the moroccan king at the French court, 1699, BNF :
Habit of a moorish woman in 1695 (in a domestic context), From "recueil des habillements de différentes nations" :
Habit of Moorish Pilgrims returning from Mecca in 1586, production date : 1757-1772 :
Portrait of the moroccan sultan Mohammed ech-Cheikh es-Seghir (1636-1655) by jérôme david (1637) :
Rare painting by Vicente Carducho in 1634 representing a redemption of Christians taken captive by the Moors in the thirteenth century :
Hafsid soldiers and caliph during the battle of Tunis in 1534 by Pieter Coecke van Aels, 1546 :
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Mohammed esh Sheikh es Seghir was the sultan of Morocco from 1636 to 1655.
He was a son of sultan Zidan al-Nasir (r. 1603–1627). His mother was a Spanish slave and he had two Spanish wives.
Zidan Abu Maali (? – September 1627) was the embattled Saadi Sultan of Morocco from 1603 to 1627. He was the son of Ahmad al-Mansur and his wife of the Chebanate tribe (also called Souk el Had village in the Moroccan province of Sidi Kacem)
Mohammed esh-Sheikh es-Seghir tried to concentrate the entire Moroccan foreign trade in Safi at the hands of the English, and to obtain warships from their king to prevent all trade with the south, but the Sultan was afraid of breaking relations with the Dutch and the French.[2] In 1638, the Sultan sent his ambassador Muhammad bin Askar to England, who was carrying a letter to hasten King Charles I of England to send the required weapons and ammunition to Morocco and to suppress the English merchants who were selling weapons to the rebels, and that was based on the treaty concluded between the two countries on September 20, 1637, which stipulates that no relationship should be established between the Kingdom of England and the Sultan's enemies in Santa Cruz, but English merchants continued to smuggle weapons into the desert.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
Depiction of the moroccan sultan Ahmad al Mansur (1578–1603) :
Portrait of Mulay Hasan, king of Tunis by Paulus Pontius, 1645 :
Moroccan Ambassador Jawdar ben Abdallah at the english court, 1637 :
Moroccan Ambassador at the english court, 1680-1695 :
Depiction of the Sultan Yaghmoracen ibn zian from the catalan atlas, XIIIth century :
Hafsid soldiers during the battle of Tunis (1535) :
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Mohammed esh Sheikh es Seghir was the sultan of Morocco from 1636 to 1655.
He was a son of sultan Zidan al-Nasir (r. 1603–1627). His mother was a Spanish slave and he had two Spanish wives.
Zidan Abu Maali (? – September 1627) was the embattled Saadi Sultan of Morocco from 1603 to 1627. He was the son of Ahmad al-Mansur and his wife of the Chebanate tribe (also called Souk el Had village in the Moroccan province of Sidi Kacem)
Mohammed esh-Sheikh es-Seghir tried to concentrate the entire Moroccan foreign trade in Safi at the hands of the English, and to obtain warships from their king to prevent all trade with the south, but the Sultan was afraid of breaking relations with the Dutch and the French.[2] In 1638, the Sultan sent his ambassador Muhammad bin Askar to England, who was carrying a letter to hasten King Charles I of England to send the required weapons and ammunition to Morocco and to suppress the English merchants who were selling weapons to the rebels, and that was based on the treaty concluded between the two countries on September 20, 1637, which stipulates that no relationship should be established between the Kingdom of England and the Sultan's enemies in Santa Cruz, but English merchants continued to smuggle weapons into the desert. [/QB]
Interesting I didn't know thanks
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
what is your view on the ancestry of these Moroccan sultans as to their typical ancestry considering potential mixtures Arab, Amazigh, other Africans European? What in your opinion was there primary ancestry and also of the current dynasty leading Morocco?
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: what is your view on the ancestry of these Moroccan sultans as to their typical ancestry considering potential mixtures Arab, Amazigh, other Africans European? What in your opinion was there primary ancestry and also of the current dynasty leading Morocco?
Mostly of local origin with some sultans having european or black mothers here and there.
Historically many berbers used to falsify their genealogy in order to legitimate their power over non descendents of the prophet :
quote: More soundly based than Guichard's conclusions are the insightful observations of Glick. As he remarks, "arabization of the Berbers during this period must be carefully qualified", noting that "many Berbers falsified their genealogies, adopting Arab tribal names in order to dissemble their true ethnic identity." This is correct, and no less true of so-called "Arabs" than of Berbers in al-Andalus. Not only were they concerned with hiding their true origins, but also by claiming association with one of the elite tribes of early Islam, a definite social and religious status could be automatically achieved; all a part of the much-discussed "Arabiyya" (arabization) propaganda (tough too few authors have recognized this aspect of the problem). Furthermore, the early muslim chronicles of the conquests (not of al-Andalus, but in general) make it eminently clear that the true Arabs were opposed to travelling beyond the boundaries of their homeland, and had little interest in settling such far-away places as Iraq and Syria, much less Spain.
Jews, Visigoths and muslims in medieval Spain by Norman Roth, p. 47
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Mohammed VI is the current King of Morocco. He belongs to the 'Alawi dynasty (Alaouite)
I'm talking about the kings, sultans of Morocco The Alawi dynasty claims descent from Muhammad via Hasan, the son of the Caliph Ali. The 'Alawis were a family of sharifian religious notables (or shurafa) who claimed descent from the Islamic prophet Muhammad via his descendant Hasan, the son of Ali and of Muhammad's daughter Fatimah. According to the dynasty's official historians, the family migrated from the Hijaz (in Arabia) to the Tafilalt during the 12th or 13th century at the request of the locals who hoped that the presence of a sharifian family would benefit the region. It is possible that the 'Alawis were merely one of many Arab families who moved westwards to Morocco during this period. The Tafilalt was an oasis region in the Ziz Valley in eastern Morocco and the site of Sijilmasa, historically an important terminus of the trans-Saharan trade routes
____________________________
Setting aside if they descend from Muhammad via Hasann in particular how do you know they aren't Arabs and the general population is a separate issue
The Muslim conquest of the Maghreb continued the century of rapid Muslim conquests following the death of Muhammad in 632 and into the Byzantine-controlled territories of Northern Africa. In a series of three stages, the conquest of the Maghreb commenced in 647 and concluded in 709 with the Byzantine Empire losing its last remaining strongholds to the then-Umayyad Caliphate under Caliph Muʿāwiya ibn Abī Sufyān.
They had to use armies to do this as the Arabs did in Egypt an the leaders were Arab. The doesn't mean it was population replacement but it does mean probable Arab ancestry in the monarchy and in a portion of the general population
Evidence, haplogroup J in Morocco
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
If I remember correctly one member of the royal family was under G2 not J1 and be realistic do you really think they can be mostly arab meanwhile the last time proper arabs settled in Morocco was the XIIIth century lol
I already showed you that such dynasties claim to be descendent of the prophet to legitimate their power. it's a well known phenomenon :
quote:In their rise to hegemony the Sa'adians and 'Alawis, although almost constantly obliged to defend their claim to the throne, had an important legitimizing factor on their side: they both claimed sharifian origin, that is, descent in the line of the family of the Prophet. Sharifs had long been especially venerated in Morocco (the first Moroccan dynasty, the Idrissid, was of sharifian origin), and many sharifian families had settled there. Now, with the emergence of the Sa'adians, sharifism was reintroduced as an important criterion in determining the legitimization of rule, that is, it acquired a political connotation to accompany its religious ones.
Edmund Burke, Morocco and the Near East : Reflections on some basic differences, pp. 73
+ they obviously don't look arab, ask any saudi/yemeni if the moroccan royal family look like them they'll laugh at you.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: [QB] If I remember correctly one member of the royal family was under G2 not J1 and be realistic do you really think they can be mostly arab meanwhile the last time proper arabs settled in Morocco was the XIIIth century lol
Of course Arabs conquered North Africa and while not replacing the local populations their monarchies maintain royal bloodline decent (with a little harem spicing on the maternal side)
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: [QB] If I remember correctly one member of the royal family was under G2 not J1 and be realistic do you really think they can be mostly arab meanwhile the last time proper arabs settled in Morocco was the XIIIth century lol
Of course Arabs conquered North Africa and while not replacing the local populations their monarchies maintain royal bloodline decent (with a little harem spicing on the maternal side)
That's absolutely not true + there is no continuity between the dynasties in North Africa. You clearly don't know what you're talking about.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: [QB] If I remember correctly one member of the royal family was under G2 not J1 and be realistic do you really think they can be mostly arab meanwhile the last time proper arabs settled in Morocco was the XIIIth century lol
Of course Arabs conquered North Africa and while not replacing the local populations their monarchies maintain royal bloodline decent (with a little harem spicing on the maternal side)
That's absolutely not true + there is no continuity between the dynasties in North Africa. You clearly don't know what you're talking about.
There is continuity in each dynasty
but not necessarily from one dynasty to another
The hard evidence, as per the region, is there, haplogroup J in a certain proportion of the population. There is no denying the DNA there
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: [QB] If I remember correctly one member of the royal family was under G2 not J1 and be realistic do you really think they can be mostly arab meanwhile the last time proper arabs settled in Morocco was the XIIIth century lol
Of course Arabs conquered North Africa and while not replacing the local populations their monarchies maintain royal bloodline decent (with a little harem spicing on the maternal side)
That's absolutely not true + there is no continuity between the dynasties in North Africa. You clearly don't know what you're talking about.
There is continuity in each dynasty
but not necessarily from one dynasty to another
The hard evidence, as per the region, is there, haplogroup J in a certain proportion of the population. There is no denying the DNA there
what are you talking about ? They all came from different tribes, there has never been any racial endogamy in Morocco nor any arab nobility. Moreover what's your point with haplogroups ? I already told you that haplogroups do not give any information in regards to the autosomal ancestry of an individual.
Stop arguing for the sake of arguing pls you're wasting my time.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The STRs reveal the deep root of the ancestry back to it's beginning But autosomal only 5-8 generations (up to approximately 200 years)
Thus if there is some haplogroup J in the region and the sultans claim Arab ancestry that they might be primarily part of this minority as opposed to the E1b1b carriers that are the majority
It seems the reason you might not to want to admit to this is politics or examine the origins of when the haplogroup J got there. There was an Arab conquest. It is an historical fact even if most of the population are not
Therefore sultanates might not reflect the average populations closely
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The STRs reveal the deep root of the ancestry back to it's beginning But autosomal only 5-8 generations (up to approximately 200 years)
Thus if there is some haplogroup J in the region and the sultans claim Arab ancestry that they might be primarily part of this minority as opposed to the E1b1b carriers that are the majority
It seems the reason you might not to want to admit to this is politics or examine the origins of when the haplogroup J got there. There was an Arab conquest. It is an historical fact even if most of the population are not
Therefore sultanates might not reflect the average populations closely
Again do not speak about things you barely understand, Haplogroups are interesting in order to detect population movements not to assess the ethnic composition of a population. Haplogroups give information about only one ancestor, the founder of your lineage not about all your ancestors nor most of them.
plenty of europeans are under typical middle eastern or african lineages yet aren't genetically similar to such populations.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Y and mitochondrial DNA reveal the deep root of the ancestry back to it's beginning But autosomal DNA only 5-8 generations (up to approximately 200 years)
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Y and mitochondrial DNA reveal the deep root of the ancestry back to it's beginning But autosomal DNA only 5-8 generations (up to approximately 200 years)
Stop confusing commercial test with a proper autosomal analysis and y-dna and mtdna only gives information about the founder of your lineage that's only one ancestor.
You can be fully italian and have a typical arab or iranian clade for instance.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Many People in North Africa have Middle Eastern DNA in their autosomal tests
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Many People in North Africa have Middle Eastern DNA in their autosomal tests
This component was already there before any arab conquest
"not substantial" ≠ none
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
A faience tile from the throne of Pharaoh Ramses III depicting a tattooed ancient Libyan chief c. 1184 to 1153 BC.
From Tell el Yahudiya. Egypt 20th Dynasty.
British Museum
quote: Polychrome glazed composition tile: this expressive tile is of a captive Libyan chief. Portrayed with uplifted face and one arm bound by a rope, he wears ornamented chest-straps and a loin-cloth, the simple costume of an overlord of the ancient Libyan, or Tjehenu, tribe. His tattoos and pierced ear reflect current Libyan fashion. The surface of his body is modelled in relief, with moulded pieces like the face added separately. The tile has been reconstructed from three pieces.
Taula de la mort dels missatgers del rei Ahazià del “Retaule de la transfiguració” de Jaume Huguet between 1466-1475 (on the right are the moorish soldiers) :
Apparently a lost bust of Massinissa :
The Pastrana Tapestries, commissioned by Portuguese King Alfonso V to celebrate conquering the Moroccan cities of Asilah and Tangiers in 1471. Here the whole pic :
and here a portion of it focused on the besieged moroccan soldiers :
Here moorish archers during the siege of Verona, Arch of Constantine, IVth century A.D. :
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Another ancient Libyan
Tile with Libyan prisoner from the time of Ramses III, from Lower Egypt: Nile Delta: Tell el-Yahudiya. Housed in British Museum
quote: Part of a polychrome glazed composition tile bearing a relief representation of the head and upper body of a Libyan prisoner with a pointed beard, side-lock and bound hands (one lost).
The rest of the hair and the lower half of the body are missing. The face and right arm are yellow-beige in colour, but the left arm is coated with a layer of white. The eye is outlined in black. The groove on the right side of the neck likely held an ornamental body strap. The head and body were composed of separate pieces, joined at the base of the neck. There are many traces of bright blue faience on the top layer of the base, which probably originally formed a blue background to the figure. The back of the tile is very flat with a smooth finish.
quote: This tile was one of many found in the remains of the palace of Ramses III at Tell el-Yahudiya. These tiles arguably display a greater variety of pose, scale, and detail than their counterparts from Medinet Habu, the mortuary temple of Ramses III, and include some of Egypt's most accomplished works from this final era of polychrome glazed composition.
It seems that the paintings in Setis tomb were in good shape when they were discovered in 1817.
quote: In 1817, when Giovanni Battista Belzoni discovered the tomb of Seti I in the Valley of the Kings, he was fascinated by the perfect preservation of the wall decorations. He documented the relief paintings in great detail in a series of watercolours that later became a godsend for researchers. Unfortunately, enthusiasm, preservation and human presence have caused immense damage to this ancient site. The fascination with the tomb of Seti I and other discoveries in the Valley of the Kings led to the removal of Egyptian heritage and to the establishment of famous Egyptian collections abroad. Unregulated access in the 19th century, compounded by the effects of mass tourism and geological movements in the 20th century, furthered the damage to the pharaonic tomb. The tomb of Seti I was closed to the public in the 1980s and has only reopened recently.
Since there are 4 figures of each type you one need one to create a facsimile. The photo angle doesn't show everything but the Libyans at least at this time seems to be in worse conditions that the others
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
West Benjamin (1738-1820) Title The Ambassador from Tunis with His Attendants as He Appeared in England in 1781 :
Portrait of Terence from Codex Vaticanus latinus 3872; done between 820 and 830, after a model that is perhaps from the fifth century. :
Zliten Mosaic, 2nd century A.D., "It depicts gladiatorial contests, animal hunts, and scenes from everyday life" :
Pharaoh Shoshenq I, 22th dynasty, ruled between 943–922 BC :
Clodius albinus, imperial pretender from Tunisia (Hadrumetum) , 193 A.D., The Capitoline Museum :
Silver Coin depicting Vermina son of the numidian king Syphax, late third century B.C. :
A fragment of a monument made in honor of King Bocchus I of Mauretania dating back to 91 BC :
Costumes of Morocco Moor Berber and Moorish nomads Handcolored lithograph from Friedrich Wilhelm Goedsche's Complete Gallery of Peoples in True Pictures Meissen circa 1835-1840 :
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Nonsense. That is not the Minutoli.
After 18 years you still don't get it
It's Lepsius' Denkmaeler Tafelwerke Band VI Neues Reich DYN XIX Abth.III.Bl.136 d. Ecke aus Raum M [jetz im K.Mus.zu Berlin]
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: It seems that the paintings in Setis tomb were in good shape when they were discovered in 1817.
quote: In 1817, when Giovanni Battista Belzoni discovered the tomb of Seti I in the Valley of the Kings, he was fascinated by the perfect preservation of the wall decorations. He documented the relief paintings in great detail in a series of watercolours that later became a godsend for researchers. Unfortunately, enthusiasm, preservation and human presence have caused immense damage to this ancient site. The fascination with the tomb of Seti I and other discoveries in the Valley of the Kings led to the removal of Egyptian heritage and to the establishment of famous Egyptian collections abroad. Unregulated access in the 19th century, compounded by the effects of mass tourism and geological movements in the 20th century, furthered the damage to the pharaonic tomb. The tomb of Seti I was closed to the public in the 1980s and has only reopened recently.
Belzoni uncovered Set I's tomb Please post a tomb wall Belzoni Book of Gates 4.5 scene 30.
Ttbomr, Belzoni's one-offs of each of the breeds of cattle in The Herd of Ra is where I worked out both my first transliteration and translation of the sacred texts the artwork but illustrates. Unfortunately for this thread's subject Belzoni only copied 3 of the 4 Tjemehu
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
images too big, no side bar please
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] Nonsense. That is not the Minutoli.
^^ this wikipedia identifies the illustration as by Minutoli, see Summary
If this is wrong, I'll change it on the image
Is is copy after Belzoni?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
FIXED
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Why get uptight?
nonsense noun Save Word
To save this word, you'll need to log in. Log In non·sense | \ ˌnän-ˌsen(t)s , ˈnän(t)-sən(t)s \ Definition of nonsense
1b(1) : language, conduct, or an idea that is absurd or contrary to good sense "To regard the struggle for existence as tragic, however, is logical nonsense." — O. B. Hardison Jr.
It's only a matter of insight. Had you read the ES page you linked you'd not've erred about who 'drew' The Four Tjemehu.
Wiki is anonymous non-expert non-professional. I may be an autodidact yet I've studied and written on this for some 24 years now. I've shared all that with ES no charge for free.
After insistance on a variety of scene 30 illos now the whole world can see the version with the Romitu as black as and dressed like Nehhesu but professionals like Yurco claimed were not in fact painted on the tomb's wall.
Anyone can now google up that actual tomb wall itself because independent minded Africana scholarship kept hammering away at the academic lies obscuring plain fact.
I am proud to have consistently pushed it since collaborating with Manu Ampim some 15 yrs ago though I went on to develop my own Solar oriented view of Book of Gates 4th division 5th Gate the Gate of Teka Hra scene 30.
But I'm more proud of introducing the Elders of Lachish bowing to Sennacherib hand scanned from a paperback of Pritchard's Ancient Near East to the internet in 1998. Now Getty gives it to the world.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: This thread has recent pictures of part of this this scene in Seti I
Since there are 4 figures of each type you one need one to create a facsimile. The photo angle doesn't show everything but the Libyans at least at this time seems to be in worse conditions that the others
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
I may adjust the Belzoni to "after Belzoni" or something if you give me a better concise caption that is enlargement of Libyan #2 (see garment) from your link
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
You and your make believe authority.
After Belzoni my redblack ... I'm smarter than your whacky Wiki plus I posted directly from the Denkmaler
No one's posted direct from the Egypt and Nubia but I posted the last of Belzoni's paintings of the Cattle/Herd of Ra and his painting does not have four Tjemehu only three as all but those refusing to accept what their eyes register can see in my earlier post.
So you see I am smarter than your Whacky Wiki who you believe in with all your heart with no knowledge of who authored the lie but you've known me for like over ten years now with all the primary nd secondary sources I put up.
You ignore fact for your beloved fancy. Despite just proving what's what you pesist in spreading ignorant error.
Lower right is Denkmaller not Belzoni. Lower left is not a facsimile
Here lemme again for the 100th time show facsiile ie 'carbon copy' or, ya know, a 'fax.'
Tjemehu - ethnonym; • same root as the tjemeh stone • people adjacent to '6th Dyn' Kenset (Nubia) • New Kingdom generic for any Libyan
Seti I tomb Tjemehu in Egyptian afterlife scene Long ago somebody stole the last intact face. posted 2012
Last is the Denkmäler's color fax. Lepsius 40 years after the Napoleon expedition saw the next to last face. The skin is creamy. The hair is brown. The eye, dark brown.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
I want to know how anybody with an IQ above 75 could even imagine this
can in any way shape or form be a fax of this
or that this Denkmaler is copied from this Belzoni
when the earliest photo (Burton c.1925) shows this
But since I'm not the Wiki I'm the one without credibility?
Hahahahahahahahahaaaaa!!!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The only reason I mentioned wiki is to show how I made the mistake, because they had it mislabeled. Then I put my tail between by legs and changed it. Then I even further humbled myself with this new blue graphic saying I would change it if you found an new inaccuracy in my caption you really don't know how to communicate without being adversarial and taking everything personally. All you had to do was say "you made a mistake on that caption it's not Minutoli." Instead it's condescension. Stop being a know-it-all snob. The banter degrades getting to the facts and possible consensus on some things
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Tomb of Seti I , Book of Gates
Essentially the same thing except in each photo in the more recent lower photo, large missing surface areas and holes have since been filled in with a blank cement or plaster like material as restoration
If this was the condition when 19th- early 20th century illustrators made "copies" the copies were not the type of copies that Norman and Nina de Garis Davis sometimes made where they imitated all the flaws in the original, crack and missing portions instead this was probably the type of illustration where they fill in everything, thus as per the face of the Libyans only one was still there on the original and except for the eye the rest of the face is missing.
In other words very little for the illustrator to go on in terms of making a full four figure illustration with everything intact which they then proceed to do
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
OK GEE I SORRY I MAY'VE WRONGLY PREJUDGED but after all these years we relate like dysfuntional family
By now a lotta stuff oughta be water off a duck's back because after all we do collaborate and you have taught and corrected me more than once though I harp on the Timgad mosaics (precisioned after a decade, egg yolk all over ma face) and Latin niger nigger (Rogers opined so but you the one what documented it) Ya see I dun wanna lead ppl down ethnocentric paths. Fact be what they are, some pro some con how can everything be Schwartz Uber Alles all the time?
We be the edge of the two sided coin each in our own way
I will say things how I want to so don't bother to dictate to me I'm no soft touch typewriter for any great dictator's dictations
What you shoulda done was accept what I taught when I teached you the first time insteada keep goin down the dead end street you chose
I'm no Mistra Knowitall What I do is share my 55+ years of studies and my conclusions therefrom for absolutely free
I believe that in sharing knowledge the giver loses nothing. Doesn't mean I will never author a publishing house book or even attempt a YouTube channel before my expiration date Heyell, I got more n 10 books worth between alladem old Rashidi/Walker/Manansala Yahoogroups, the 2 Egytpsearch sites, and the multitude of Yahoo's old AfrAm/Sepharade/Orthodox Jewish groups.
Snob? Well if it's the blood, blood will tell class w/o bragging. Always acknowledged you make a good everyday American language rewrite editor for me. And yes other have called my style hi-brow. Don't mean to be. Can't help it. It's all those late 19th early 20th century books I came up on. They whipped me.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
OK then let's collaborate again, w/no foolin around.
Belzoni uncovered the tomb, 1817. Lepsius came decades later, 1842-1845
Would you agree that both show the face of Libyan #2 ?
In Lepsius' day two Libyan faces were still visible as indicated by irregular outline in the Denkmaler fax http://edoc3.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/lepsius/page/abt3/band6/image/03061360.jpg for higher res zoomable img of whole scene; bottom (b) is the tomb's wall left of corner, the top (a) is the tomb's wall right of corner.
What about Belzoni's artist? I think he's a tad more stylistic and leaves out detail compared to Lepsius' artist. And you?
I'll just add this subjectivity then bye bye. Belzoni's has a kinda European look about it. Lepsius' is no different than 'white' Libyans I lived and hung with in my university days.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
I filled inside the outline "x"
I'm not sure if that outline on the illustration was accurate or not or if it necessarily shows what was missing But if that outline is accurate then there would have had been a little more damage because I don't see a perfect match
Maybe this fill in was done crudely and some fool was sloppily slapping that stuff on and covered the face . Maybe there is some record of the history of this fill to clarify
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Belzoni uncovered the tomb, 1817. Lepsius came decades later, 1842-1845
This seems to be by Charles Joseph Hullmandel under Belzoni I thought the aim was to compare Minutoli to Lepsius?
Not a huge difference in the face, the one left looks indistinctly European The one on the right like a Sicilian, Spaniard or berber, the nose tip goes down at a sharper angle, jaw protrudes more There is a large bow-like decoration on the left shoulder of the left figure but not the one on the right
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
I filled inside the outline "x"
I'm not sure if that outline on the illustration was accurate or not or if it necessarily shows what was missing But if that outline is accurate then there would have had been a little more damage because I don't see a perfect match
Maybe this fill in was done crudely and some fool was sloppily slapping that stuff on and covered the face . Maybe there is some record of the history of this fill to clarify
.
As now rearranged your graphic chronicles the increasing deterioration of the painting 'canvas' as it progressively peels off of the smoothed over prepared tomb wall.
Your red X areas shows peeling is as old as 40 years between Belzoni's uncovery and the Lepsius' sponsored facsimile.
The last img shows the state of things 'now'. No doubt more peeling has occured since the color photo was taken.
It's not for you to judge the outline's accuracy. You don't have the qualifications or contrary evidence for that. That's your own misgiving. Lepsius' irregular line outline and 'greyed' hieroglyphics are vindicated by Burton's photo and the TMP(?) photo vouches for both Lepsius and Burton.
I have no proof but Belzoni and Rosellini (below, c.1836) probably wanted full presentation of the art. Lepsius while presenting the fill-in artwork per his artist's intuition made sure viewers saw what was left intact vs what was 'restored'.
While not a fax, this Rosellini documents peeling. Was anything gone when Belzoni prepared his work? The art says no but does the author's text mention anything about the state of Seti I's tomb walls and pillars?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Just seeing the 'net imgs I now understand how you came to think plaster was slathered over the artwork. First time you said that months ago I ignored it but now see you were serious so lemme repost a lil sumpin
=-=-=-= How the KV tomb paintings were produced.
quarrymen and plasterers prepared the walls and ceilings
outline draftsmen sketch the scene onto a marked grid
sculptors worked the outline into a relief
craftsmen detail the relief
artists paint the detailed relief - coloring the sculptors' work - redrawing the edges of imaged figures and hieroglyphs
This known from a papyrus of a scribe's plan for Ramses IV's tomb, "drawing with outline, engraving with the chisel, filling with colors and finishing".
A labor gang would consist of a few painters aided by apprentices and assistants. Besides work on royal tombs they were employed by the bureaucrats of Thebes.
Compared to the sculptors and painters who followed them the outline draftsmen were consummate technicians. The outline work in Ramses III's tomb is considered mediocre. It's proposed that the best outline draftsmen of that time were not working on the king's tomb but rather on his temple
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QB] Tomb of Seti I , Book of Gates
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] Just seeing the 'net imgs I now understand how you came to think plaster was slathered over the artwork. First time you said that months ago I ignored it but now see you were serious so lemme repost a lil sumpin
It is not easy to see what is going on in the black and white What I see is a very large hole on the right and other washy looking great areas that are on the surface but the surface after large areas of paint have fallen off (or are water damaged or whatever the case may be)
Going to the color picture, they have since filled in that big hole with, as per this photo seemingly light brown in color, a grainy plaster like material coating these areas blankly
So this restoration fill material, I take it back saying it was sloppy It actually looks like it closely covers the contour of all the damaged scrubby parts where parts of the the paint layer fell off of the raw wall
They are essentially the same very damaged part of the wall and the same area filled in with a filler material Both the B & W and color post-fill, do not show the Libyan's face except for the eye
Therefore if the line is accurate in Belzonis rendering then further damage must have occurred after the Belzoni (which I think you are suggesting) because the Belzoni shows the whole head of that Libyan. ( If I am not mistaken Charles Joseph Hullmandel under Belzoni)
Anyway looking at Charles Joseph Hullmandel under Belzoni, Rosellini, Minutoli I don't know all the dates each was made and if each illustrator was in Egypt in front of the original.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: You requested my suggestions on this?
thanks,
1 2 3 4 5 6
1) do you still have that big version with two figures and the light grid over it? Why are they beardless?
2) palace, ok
3) isn't it proper if their arms arm bound that they are captives of Amenhotep? > in addition to 9 bows which I could add
4) can't change that, it's tampering Also I don't have photoshop at the moment, using much inferior basic paint type app at the moment
5) on the Minutoli' you are saying "repro" . I think the term "after" is more standard But repro/after what ?
6) Am I correct you are referring to that b & w photo (the Burton right?) you posted and Theban mapping project? Both of those photos only show the eye of the Libyan, none of the facial features or even beard, due to damage So as per photos, of the face there is very little to be faithful to, other than an eye and hair. Mouth nose and beard are not there
___________________________________an eye and hair, that's it
Racial Science in Stone. The anthropological reading of ancient depictions of people in the sciences of the 19th and 20th centuries
BY TEAMREDAKTION · PUBLISHED 08/02/2022· UPDATED03/02/2022
(excerpt translated from the German)
The reason why the archaeologists and racial scientists were particularly interested in the Egyptian pictorial works was that they believed they were dealing here with typologicalrepresentations: The typological reading recognizes in ancient pictorial works a grasping of the essential or characteristic features of a large number of individuals that form a group that goes beyond the mere depiction of the individual. Just like the idealistic one, the pictorial work also abstracts from individual characteristics according to the typological reading, but the orientation is different: while the idealistic representation represents an aestheticizing transgression of the real, the typological aims to capture the real more precisely than it is capable of mimetically depicting a single object. Nineteenth- and early twentieth-century scholars largely agreed that, unlike Babylonian and Assyrian sculpture, for example, In particular, the depictions of foreign peoples recorded on the Egyptian temple reliefs functioned in this way, i.e. they should be understood and read as a typological recording and visualization of the real. This is exactly what made them so valuable for racial science, because ultimately they were not interested in individual characteristics but in group characteristics, which fundamentally cannot be visualized by mimetic individual portraits. For this reason, Egyptian images were in principle even considered more valuable than photographs of individual people and acted in racial publications as a corrective to photographs of recent populations because they sharpened the view of the so-called racial characteristics. Anthropologists like Egon Freiherr zu Eickstedt, a convinced National Socialist, even praised the ancient Egyptians as the founders of their own discipline, and believed that they could identify "the first known racial depictions" in their sculptures, in contrast to which Greek art meant a "step backwards". A supposed type representation was particularly popular: the representation of the so-called four races, which the Italian excavator Giovanni Belzoni had compiled in 1820 from the colored figures of the wall paintings uncovered in 1820 to the tomb of Seti I. This figure was therefore also widely used, even in National Socialist publications (Figure 4). on the other hand, Greek art meant a "regression". A supposed type representation was particularly popular: the representation of the so-called four races, which the Italian excavator Giovanni Belzoni had compiled in 1820 from the colored figures of the wall paintings uncovered in 1820 to the tomb of Seti I. This figure was therefore also widely used, even in National Socialist publications (Figure 4). on the other hand, Greek art meant a "regression". A supposed type representation was particularly popular: the representation of the so-called four races, which the Italian excavator Giovanni Belzoni had compiled in 1820 from the colored figures of the wall paintings uncovered in 1820 to the tomb of Seti I. This figure was therefore also widely used, even in National Socialist publications (Figure 4).
look boyish
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Clearer img of Belzoni's Kushis and eastern Libyans
Ancient Maghrebis in New Kingdom art differ from 'eastern Libyans'. No telling how far west the Meshwesh originated or how much they were an extract of island and north Mediterraneans. In any event they pushed eastward conquering eastern Libyan Libu, Tjehenu, etc., and allying with the various "Peoples of the Sea." Eventually they became THE Libyans. Their chiefs, the great Ma, as Egyptianized nationals, founded a few NK / LP dynasties.
It appears there was a Sudani-Libyan royal rivalry that perhaps echoes back to Old Kingdom times when Tjemehu were the target of Sudani aggressors from Yam intent on expelling them far west but Egyptian merchant Harkhuf convinced Yam's ruler that big trade was of greater importance.
This is interesting re birth and spread of Libycus (Tamazight, Berber) which Behrens proposed spread from Sudan in the 2nd millenium BCE. Also what we know of the Maghreb's specific nrY chromosome haplogroup.
Also in this timeframe is a return to the Maghreb proper of the mtDNA U6a1 sub haplogroup born in the east but from northwest 'motherage'.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^ @Tukuler, Champollion-Figeac adding a 5th, an archer?
an archer to the herd? Have you ever seen the original for this archer figure? I assume he adds him from elsewhere to the figures from BG: 50, Seti I
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Ok, I did it
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: You requested my suggestions on this?
thanks,
1 2 3 4 5 6
1) do you still have that big version with two figures and the light grid over it?
Check the archive. You posted it a BoG threads few times.
quote: Why are they beardless?
Shoo, that's what I'm asking you! Haha. Considering the tomb and chamber it's in a rookie team goofed off assuming nobody'd ever see it anyway. Little could they foresee we'd be diggin on it thousands of years later.
Anyway I think Rosellini's "after 5" stubby bearded Libyans are a bigger hoot. Then there's the Minutoli cartoon Libyans with their mutton chops. Were they eye strained or deliberately altering fact to suit ethnocentric fancy? Well, Rosellini didn't distort the Sudanis into a blatant racist caricature.
quote:
2) palace, ok
3) isn't it proper if their arms arm bound that they are captives of Amenhotep? > in addition to 9 bows which I could add
Yes. That position marks the prisoner hieroglyph of which they are artistic multi-ethnic examples. So it's not that calling them prisoners is wrong. It's that Amenhotep never took such a melange of peoples captive and it is factual and pertinent that the depicted is in a painting including non-Libyan others -- the other 8 Bows. Remember, sometimes there are 11 Bows where Ta Shemau and Ta Mehh are rounded up too and surely Egypt didn't take itself a captive prisoner.
Just my take and opinion. It's OK but not specific as is.
quote:
4) can't change that, it's tampering Also I don't have photoshop at the moment, using much inferior basic paint type app at the moment
5) on the Minutoli' you are saying "repro" . I think the term "after" is more standard But repro/after what ?
Understanding expedition leaders didn't do the art themselves but of course hired professionals to do it.
Rarely is an artist after himself (except color <-> B&W)
After is used when a lesser artist copies an original. Reproductions range from piss poor to facsimile levels. A facsimile attempts to be a 1:1 faithful rendition of what the artist sees right before her very own eyes. At least that's my 2nd half of 20th century perspective. I recognize this is a different time day and age and that word meaning and usage and especially idioms are subject to change.
quote:
6) Am I correct you are referring to that b & w photo (the Burton right?) you posted and Theban mapping project? Both of those photos only show the eye of the Libyan, none of the facial features or even beard, due to damage So as per photos, of the face there is very little to be faithful to, other than an eye and hair. Mouth nose and beard are not there [. . .]
Nah, I'm talking about the 19th century reproductions by Belzoni Rosellini and Lepsius all have an intact 2nd Libyan. Yes by the 20th century 2nd Libyan's face is totally obliterated. Lepsius, who faithfully records what was intact though 'embellishing' what was missing shows 1st Libyan's nose mouth beard and cheek. The other two Libyan's faces are made up guess work. Could call it artistic license in a way.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Ok, I did it
.
Thanks in bunches. Have you ever met anyone in your life with that nose? I haven't but would expect it on a European of all the Old World old time peoples. Especially in combination with almost non-existant lips (true blanco phenotype).
How many different types of Europeans found themselves in ancient Libya?
By Herodotus' time Greeks are one of the four stocks of Libyans. What's up with that? Then there's Greco-Libyan interconnected mythology too.
Does E-M78 fit in somehow?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Here's another theory and you probably won't like it but not impossible >>
What if Belzoni faked that line he put in, just a little? What if when he was looking at it the face was just as obscured as it is today and he wanted his illustration to appear credible that he was doing his fill ins based on what he saw on the wall and he just needed a Libyan to complete the thing, so he just moved that line over to play like the face was exposed when it really wasn't What if the other illustrators faked it too and just filled in as they pleased? They were already in fill in mode not like Nina de Garis Davies who was trying to illustrate like a photographer and imitates every crack, scuff and peel
Was there really somebody who was going to detect it at that time or even get upset about it? He could always say "they had a leak later on after I made that, quite unfortunate but I captured it with my valiant brush"
I wonder if there are other Belzonis with that damage outline shown and other pierces could be compared to photos.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Thanks in bunches. Have you ever met anyone in your life with that nose? I haven't but would expect it on a European of all the Old World old time peoples. Especially in combination with almost non-existant lips (true blanco phenotype).
I see nothing abnormal about the nose. What is behind the eye? maybe that is crow's feet (or a tattoo?) and wrinkles on the cheek by the mouth. He appears to be a man of late 50s years old or more, maybe 63 He has a high cheekbone like Clint Eastwood. Lips thin like many of those reliefs at Persepolis or various Europeans, especially older. What I consider anatomically wrong is the the neck was too far back. I moved the neck. It was also borderline inhumanly thin for the head. Also the chin is in the shape of a beard but without a black beard color. Either there was black there or this is a caricature with a chin that out jutted out to an inhuman level. It does not resemble the normal looking chins on the Ramesses III Libyans so I did plastic surgery on that chin. (only now after the fact do I realize I could have just put some black hair on it. The nose I left alone but above it made the forehead slightly more upright, more masculine although they way it was, sloping more could have been possible. The eye was somewhat an almond shape depicting a front view eye so I changed it to realistic side view. Not certain if a skin tone was intended or it was just the wood color. I'm also noting my updated version could pass for an older female, it wasn't intentional
I thought, with question, this was a Theban Mapping Project product
I'm certain now it's a zoom and crop of your boy KairoInfo4u's shot
Great find. So we can track deterioration from Rosellini Lepsius Burton to KairoInfo4u who obviously loves monumental pharaonic Egypt. In the end this Seti I depiction is but one of hundreds of available Libyan profiles. He's apparently an ethnic Tjemehu not a generic one.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Here's another theory and you probably won't like it but not impossible >>
What if Belzoni faked that line he put in, just a little? What if when he was looking at it the face was just as obscured as it is today and he wanted his illustration to appear credible that he was doing his fill ins based on what he saw on the wall and he just needed a Libyan to complete the thing, so he just moved that line over to play like the face was exposed when it really wasn't What if the other illustrators faked it too and just filled in as they pleased? They were already in fill in mode not like Nina de Garis Davies who was trying to illustrate like a photographer and imitates every crack, scuff and peel
Was there really somebody who was going to detect it at that time or even get upset about it? He could always say "they had a leak later on after I made that, quite unfortunate but I captured it with my valiant brush"
I wonder if there are other Belzonis with that damage outline shown and other pierces could be compared to photos.
Basically I agree. I doubt decomposition was so quick between Belzoni (1817) and Rosellini (c.1838) that the wall was pristine when uncovered. I dunno for sure. I'm not conversant on the science of reopened tomb conservation.
My only objection to you is Lepsius didn't fake 1st Libyan's lower face nor 2nd Libyan's whole profile. 100% accuracy? Of course not. But certainly better than the ballbpark Rosellini and the racist caricature Minutoli contrived. I was friends with five Libyans who can more or less stand in for Lepsius' 2nd Libyan profile. That type is a continuity.
BTW who should care if I don't like their proposal? When I went to Doc Ben's office he told me I didn't need his approbation. He told me what matters is if my evidence warrants my conclusions and my sources support my suppositions. Got it?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Careful. This guy's not even trying to give an eyewitness plate of the tomb at all. This, and other of these b&w line etchings are what you call "after" works, inferiors copying after the originals.
The Figeac? I need to brush up on him but seem to recall something about him saying how he gleefully hired a team of artists to capture the scene which he believed the Libyans were Europeans and some popular Afrocentrics are repeating his error to this day. They like Figeac calling his ancestors savages but is that an honest assessment of Libyan African culture? Back in the old days anthropologists invented 4 scales of human development. Savages were at the rock bottom below the barbarian stage.
^^ @Tukuler, Champollion-Figeac adding a 5th, an archer?
an archer to the herd? Have you ever seen the original for this archer figure? I assume he adds him from elsewhere to the figures from BG: 50, Seti I
.
Hahahahaa! Imagine that, a dead and resurrected Aamu shade toting around weapons in the AfterDeath realm of Osiris? Surely, if it happened the Gulper would devour the fool.
But yeah I think ES handled that. Remember a thread with posts on weapons and the hair color of their wielders? Unless memory is jumbled that guy is there.
NO! Wait. Ain't he one of Sheikh Abi Sha's retinue?
OK, the answer is both!
from your Abisha at Beni Hasan thread where also are the 'redhead' weapon guys from the same site but not part of the sheikh's (heqa:khast) retinue.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
- yes a kairoinfo4u crop
I don't feel like doing it but it could be useful to make a date sequenced list of all the different illustrations (w/artist or and /or research leader name).
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
and see if you can find the same image location This site has better quality, if you click on the photo you get the enlargement with good resolution Then I'll make a Champollion-Figeac plate with the photo added
Also in the Asar Imhotep thread I added comment, basically looking to make a compilation image for the one word "Egyptians" (not "Egypt") this a together, extract from all the different dictionaries in one image. I expect to see more corresponding glyphs than just I6
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: - yes a kairoinfo4u crop
I don't feel like doing it but it could be useful to make a date sequenced list of all the different illustrations (w/artist or and /or research leader name).
Nah, I was gonna ask you to do it and some other stuff too.
Me? I'm lazy old and slow. But who knows? Time is on our side.
It should only include works from expedition masters alone and the Burton ThebanMappingProject and KairoInfo4U photos
Any particular reason for the exhaustive take on this one Libyan image? Because, or just because?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Any particular reason for the exhaustive take on this one Libyan image? Because, or just because? [/QB]
I was inspired by your suggestion that some of these versions are racist but I'm still not entirely clear about what is what
Are these both Belzoni? They are both the same Seti I figure The Minutoli is not that different from the one on the left If both of these figures are Belzoni, of the same Seti BG figure why are they slightly different?
The hair is also slightly different, on the left figure the hair converges to a point at the center top of the head
Not too much help here although it seems the flatter feather position more closely resembles the left illustration
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
The Minutoli is the only one I'm calling out for inherent 19th century European ethnocentric stereotype racism the way he deliberately altered the Sudani and Libyan faces.
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I think this is either a facsimile or a fake though the reddish outline seems to indicate original.
Werner Forman Archive/E. Strouhal/Heritage Images
This photo by World History Archive is
coroborated by this John Keates one
Best to use the Alamy site to super zoom and make one's own contrast comparison.
the tomb has additional lighting in the floor projecting upward as shown in that tomb interior photo you showed
However in the left photo notice the blank sand colored portion with the missing part of the painting, notice we can't see the foot of the man on the left (which would be his right foot)
Now look at the right photo some of that foot we can see as well as a small piece of the stiped border garment. Notice inside the damaged part is not uniform it's splotchy and light brown with another part of it darker brown (around the center area between his legs) and unlike that part on the left photo that missing part does not breach, go across that darker floor section the man is standing on. The right photo seems to be made at an earlier condition of the painting. We can see the same pattern as in the Seti I. They seem at a later time put a uniform blank filling material, plaster like - instead of leaving baldly damaged scrubby looking areas
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Not the same to me? Why I see on right as a either a 'fax' or a repro?
Just play the find the mismatch game. I find nine.
Especially nasion to chin angle, slope and point direction of nose, over shoulder cloak clasp, details of the chick glyph.
Try 200 then 400% zoom in.
But to each their own.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
I have seen the magnification of both. I propose perceived differences are due to the fact that they were taken at different times, the lighting may not have been exactly the same nor settings on each camera.
You propose that one of them might be a 'fax' or a repro. If that is the case, then out of the two, how would know which is the real one?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
seems to be this one; cropping is the same (note bottom) this seems to be the same but has better less muted color Theban mapping project one at top (although they both seem slightly too yellow. In the earlier posts of the same, on both larger Alarmy versions the wall looks whiter. I believe that is more accurate, the whole thing slightly less yellow
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote: African Origin Of Civilization by Cheikh Anta Diop 1974 (extracts from pp 46-48)
Let us start with the oldest of these theses, that of Champollion the Younger, set forth in the thirteenth letter to his brother. It concerns bas-reliefs on the tomb of Sesostris 1, also visited by Rienzi. These date back to the sixteenth century b.c. (Eighteenth Dynasty) and represent the races of man known to the Egyptians. This monument is the oldest complete ethnological document available. Here is what Champollion says about it:
quote: (extracts) Finally, the last one is what wecall flesh-colored, a white skin of the most delicate shade, a nose straight or slightly arched, blue eyes, blond or reddish beard, tall stature and very slender clad in a hairy ox-skin, a veritable savage tattooed on various parts of his body; he is called Tamhou....
We find there Egyptians and Africans represented in the same way, which could not be otherwise; but the Namou (the Asians) and the Tamhou (Europeans) present significant and curious variants....
Asia was represented indiscriminately by any one of the peoples who inhabited it. The same is true of our good old ancestors, the Tamhou. Their attire is sometimes different; their heads are more or less hairy and adorned with various ornaments; their savage dress varies somewhat in form, but their white complexion, their eyes and beard all preserve the character of a race apart. I had this strange ethnographical series copied and colored. I certainly did not expect, on arriving at Biban-el-Moluk, to find sculptures that could serve as vignettes for the history of the primitive Europeans, if ever one has the courage to attempt it. Nevertheless, there is something flattering and consoling in seeing them, since they make us appreciate the progress we have subsequently achieved.
-For a very good reason, I have reproduced this extract as Chantpollion-Figeac published it, rather than take it from the "new edition” of the Letters published in 1867 by the son of Champollion the Younger (Cheronnct-Champollion). The originals were addressed to Champollion-Figeac; therefore his edition is more authentic
quote: Chapter I, p 27 Origin of the ancient Egyptians by Cheikh Anta Diop
General History of Africa II Edited by G. Mokhtar UNESCO 1981. p 30
Nevertheless, in current textbooks the question is suppressed: in most cases it is simply and flatly asserted that the Egyptians were white and the honest layman is left with the impression that any such assertion must necessarily have a prior basis of solid research. But there is no such basis, as this chapter has shown. And so generation after generation has been misled. Man y authorities skate around the difficulty today by speaking of red-skinned and black-skinned whites without their sense of commo n logic being in the least upset. 'The Greeks call Africa "Libya", a misnomer ab initio since Africa contains many other peoples besides the so-called Libyans, who belong among the whites of the northern or Mediterranean periphery and hence are many steps removed from the brown (or red) skinned whites (Egyptians).'
Maybe a bigger difference with the Minutoli, making the the third figure, the Asiatic, presumably from the Levant so pale There are very few full color representations of Libyans in Egyptian art. However there are many of Asiatics and they are usually brown Although below, at Rameses III in an analogous Book of Gates scene not so brown but also not so pale Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^ I hear some Kemet adherents of today, so called "hoteps" calling saying the "Tamahou" were white Europeans like Diop and Champollion did. - and some of them call modern day white people in America "Tamahu"
However, if these Tamhou were not indigenous Libyans or were only partially indigenous Libyans then the part that was not African where would it most likely have been from? The Levant, Spain, Greece and islands?
Also if this was an artificially curled hairstyle like the Afar do in Ethiopia using a stick to wrap the hair around > then we don't know what their hair type was naturally
That is on Tutankhmun's footstool, the facial form is in excellent condition - yet looking more West European than Southern European and many of the berbers of today along the coast who have a somewhat mixed look, they tend toward Southern European looking, like certain Spaniards
Champollion describes them as having "savage dress" He says "clad in a hairy ox-skin" Is that accurate for these Libyan figures at Seti I? How would he know that. the material? Sounds kind of hot for desert wear. To me their outfits look pretty fashionable, like something in a Paris fashion show, nice pattern on them (could those bright colors be on ox skin?), they have that decorative bow thing at the shoulder, orderly hair style, nice feathers at the top. They are the most fashion forward of the Gates people by far. I think he must have been taken aback by their "savage" tattoos, thinking that once you have a tattoo you must be a savage (Otzi). This hairstyle and gown could have been in Europe in some ancient time or place or maybe the Levant but does not look like things known in Europe that I've seen. Looks very unique and the hair resembling Ethiopian Afar style
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ... how would know which is the real one?
You already said you think it's only lighting and settings. Just repeating that again is no evidence that it's so. For sure the settings differ since different photographers. This holds true comparing any two photos of any objects and has little effect if something is there (ie, sharp slightly tilted nose or rounded down pointing nose) or it's not there as part of both questioned objects.
Burton B&W and KairoInfo4U are a century apart. Whole world of difference in photo technology. Yet, other than peel offs their figure details of people and hieroglyphs are identical. What's there in the one is what's there in the other.
Not going to repeat what I already posted but will add clarifications.
The World History Archive photo (2019) Image ID:RJPD44 authenticity is 'assured' by its missing context, supplied by John Keates photo (2017) Image ID:P549MY showing the WHA photo's context. The tomb insides are evident, note more of wall, corner, adjacent wall, pillar, and tourist railing.
Two out of three Alamy contributors' photos using different cameras/settings agree and were definitely taken at the tomb two years apart from each other. (Will check Doc Ben's photo for an old witness account).
Img of the three misplaced Libyans followed by the one Sudani is only a crop of the img showing the whole wall and around the corner to where are the 1st misplaced Libyan and a couple of Egyptians, black as and attired like the depicted Sudanis.
I may do a circle-and-arrow img compare of where I see what's evident and obvious, to me, that the subject of both cannot be one and same object. Minutiae detailing guides my conclusion. Overlay would provide objective proof. Borrowed from physical anthropology/forensics, the nasion to chin angle is an objective measure to support/disconfirm identical subjects.
I try to apply persimony to avoid convolutions when 'hypothesizing'.
=-=-=-=
I see discrepancies between the Assyrians as presented by WHA Image ID:RJPD8B and Werner Forman Archive/E. Strouhal/Heritage Images Image ID:DE3TRP though only one of the Assyrians is shown by both sources. Will post later if interested and not off-topic (just relevant to imgs from diff sources and 'vetting' authenticity re wall photo vs fax/repro painting).
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Thx. It's been fun along the way but no retentive learning happening here. Carry on, I'm out.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Belzoni
_______________________________________
Heinrich Von Minutoli
Maybe a bigger difference with the Minutoli, making the the third figure, the Asiatic, presumably from the Levant so pale
.
=-=-=-=
CONCLUSION Looked up the Doc Ben 1981 photos which are the oldest Ramses III ones. Essentially the same as in Hornung and Yurco.
I now suspect the newest unfiltered orange-ish tomb lighting photos may be after conservation or restoration work was done on the 'mural'. Work on the tomb is something that can be looked into as it may be the source of the mismatches. https://www.ramesses-iii-project.com/english/the-project/
Not scene 30 but recognition of art 'restoration' in the tomb.
RECONSTRUCTION OF SCENES Reconstruction of the bakery scene in chamber Ba. Copyrights: A. Weber.
Research by: Martina Grünhagen, Willem Hovestreydt, Dora Olsen, Anke Weber, Daniel Werning
The only relevant Rosellini I could find is 1832 CLVI
auto resized by PostImage hosting goto https://postimg.cc/MMjDrSnK/4839dca5 for fine detail zoomable img tiny names at very bottom left & right did this graphic for Rosellini but it doesn't look like a photo to me
OK now I see why it isn't
Camera lucida in use
When I was a kid this was advertised in comic books. A lot still depends on the hand of the renderer since no photograph snapshot is involved.
see update of pg 2 post posted 24 May, 2022 10:07 PM I'm, making a new thread in a minute on Belzoni's Sudanis
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
It seems as if some pictures have a different caption every time one finds it on the net. Sometimes one wish one always had access to the original picture at its museum, in a tomb or a private collection.
Here is a head with different captions on different pages. It seems to have been actioned away at Sothebys.
Here it is said to come from the mortuary temple of Ramses II:
Here it is said to be from c 300 BC and sold at Sothebys:
On this site it is said to be from the reign of Psamtik I, 664-610 B.C
quote: Lot 98 is an excellent Egyptian limestone relief fragment from the 26th Dynasty, reign of Psamtik I, 664-610 B.C ... The catalogue notes that the relief is carved with the head of a foreigner, "probably a Libyan."
Your link also referring to the the Sotheby's auction says
Sotheby's 10:15AM, June 12, 2003
Lot 119 is a very fine blue-green Egyptian faience amulet of a lion that is 2 15/18-inches long and is dated 30th Dynasty/Early Ptolemaic Period, circa 380-200 B.C. It has an estimate of $10,000 to $15,000. It sold for $16,800. Lot 98 is an excellent Egyptian limestone relief fragment from the 26th Dynasty, reign of Psamtik I, 664-610 B.C. The relief is 7 1/8 inches high and has a modest estimate of $15,000 to $20,000. It sold for $176,000. The catalogue notes that the relief is carved with the head of a foreigner, "probably a Libyan."
^^ this I think is correct. The Sotheby's note did not give the full detail because the item was pictured with that second item
However to suggest that it is from Rameses II Mortuary Temple, that is 13th c BC That is much older, I think probably incorrect
If this is accurate there was a spectacular price increase at the auction, the estimate they call "modest" for this item $10-20,000 Sold for apparently $176,000 about 9 times $20K You can see possible confusion here in the records. It's one picture, the green circle says lot 98 but we see also see a blue-green lion amulet, lot 119 another circular tag but harder to see lying flat at the back of the lion. Maybe that high sold price was for both, but we can see at the other link from Sotheby's that only show the sale of lot 98 Libyan but it is marked by the time period date for lot 119 lion. The lion amulet is not unique. Others are documented but it is just short of 3 inches yet sold for $16,800, wow To me this Libyan's features resemble a Chinese person ______________________________
Lot 98: A LIMESTONE RELIEF FRAGMENT, 26TH DYNASTY, REIGN OF PSAMTIK I, 664-610 B.C., Sold: Log in to view Sotheby's June 12, 2003 New York, NY, US
Description from a sculptor's model or votive relief, finely carved in high relief with the head of a foreigner, probably a Libyan, facing right, and wearing a broad collar, with striated wavy beard, long hair falling in ribbed tresses over the forehead and back of the head, and long finely braided sidelock, his face with full lips, deep folds flanking the mouth and nostril, and finely carved eye with long contoured tapering eyebrow and cosmetic line; traces of red and black pigment.
Dimensions 7 1/8 by 5 7/8in. (18.1 by 14.9cm)
Provenance Martine, Comtesse de Béhague Estate of the Marquis de Ganay (Sotheby's, Monaco, Antiquités et Objets d'Art, Collection de Martine, Comtesse de Béhague provenant de la Succession du Marquis de Ganay, December 5th, 1987, no. 106, illus.) From the earliest times, the ancient Egyptians were very aware of their foreign neighbors. Standardized images representing the ancient Lybians, Nubians, Asiatics, and other foreigners are preserved in painting, sculpture, and the minor arts, which reveal how the Egyptians' perception of these peoples altered over time. The period of this relief coincides with an historical event that could have inspired the choice of the subject for this relief model. Under the threat of a Libyan attack in 655 B.C., Psamtik I sent troops to meet the danger ( Lexikon der Ägyptologie, vol. III, 1980, col. 1023 and vol. IV, 1982, col. 1166). Perhaps it was carved in the wake of the event, in anticipation of more elaborate depictions of this subject
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
an apparent Libyan at right, this is the start of a tomb painting that was never finished
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Bust of Africa (Goddess Africa) Museum El Djem. Tunisia .
. The Goddess Africa and the Four Seasons
Goddess Africa with Four Seasons at the corner, a mosaic in El Djem Museum Tunisia.jpg DescriptionGoddess Africa with Four Seasons at the corner, a mosaic in El Djem Museum
Goddess Africa, also known as Dea Africa, was the personification of Africa by the Romans in the early centuries of the common era. She was one of the fertility and abundance deities to some. Her iconography typically included an elephant-mask head dress, curly hair, broad nose, a cornucopia, and a lion.
She is portrayed on some coins, carved stones, and mosaics in Roman Africa. A mozaic of her is found in the El Djem museum of Tunisia. A sanctuary found in Timgad, Algeria features goddess Africa's iconography.
________________________
Timgad, Algeria
Timgad (Arabic: تيمقاد; called Thamugas or Thamugadi in old Berber) was a Roman city in the Aurès Mountains of Algeria. It was founded by the Emperor Trajan around AD 100. The full name of the city was Colonia Marciana Ulpia Traiana Thamugadi. Trajan named the city in commemoration of his mother Marcia, eldest sister Ulpia Marciana, and father Marcus Ulpius Traianus.
In the former name of Timgad, Marciana Traiana Thamugadi, the first part – Marciana Traiana – is Roman and refers to the name of its founder, Emperor Trajan and his sister Marciana.The second part of the name – Thamugadi – "has nothing Latin about it". Thamugadi is the Berber name of the place where the city was built, to read Timgad plural form of Tamgut, meaning "peak", "summit".
The city was founded ex nihilo as a military colony by the emperor Trajan around AD 100. It was intended to serve primarily as a bastion against the Berbers in the nearby Aures Mountains. It was originally populated largely by Roman veterans.
The city enjoyed a peaceful existence for the first several hundred years and became a center of Christian activity starting in the 3rd century, and a Donatist center in the 4th century.
In the 5th century, the city was sacked by the Vandals before falling into decline. In AD 535, the Byzantine general Solomon found the city empty when he came to occupy it during the Vandalic War. In the following century, the city was briefly repopulated as a primarily Christian city before being sacked by Berbers in the 7th century.
The archaeological area of Tipasa includes two of the hills along the coast upon which the ancient town stood. The eastern one, where the harbour was located, is part of the modern town.
Museum of Tipasa: Mosaic of the Slaves
A fine floor mosaic was found in the apse of the Civil Basilica and after extensive restoration it was moved to a very small museum at the entrance to the archaeological site. It has an elaborate geometric decoration based on pelta, the shield of the Amazons. Twelve small portraits of heads surround a central panel depicting a family of slaves or prisoners.
quote: The frizzly hair of the "slaves" and of the twelve surrounding figures is the Roman iconographical feature which identified the native people of the provinces of northern Africa. A modern politically oriented interpretation of the mosaic purpose suggests it was meant to humiliate the inhabitants of Tipasa of non-Roman origin. It might not have had such a general significance and perhaps it was made to celebrate a specific event. We know that Emperor Antoninus Pius ordered the construction of walls to protect Tipasa; the town was therefore threatened by something, possibly a raid by nomadic tribes who lived in the Sahara desert, similar to the Garamantes in Libya. The mosaic therefore might have celebrated a fight in which an attack by these tribes was repelled or a successful punitive expedition in their territories. https://www.romeartlover.it/Tipasa3.html
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
Head of personified Africa/Goddess Africa , reign of Juba II, Museum of Cherchell :
Head of a north african woman with tattoos, 2nd - 3d century A.D. found in Chemtou :
Personification of Africa and Mauretania. According to Von Jochen 1980, p. 185, fig. 23. found in Alexandria :
Portrait of Ahmed Iben Ahmed, Quadran-Nasir, ambassador from Emperor Moulay Ismail of Morocco to the court of Queen Anne 1707 :
A Moroccan Amir wearing Moroccan Jabador stands proudly in brilliant sunshine within the walls of the Citadel of Tangier, 1850. Painting by the French painter Auguste Delacroix 1809 1868 :
Lost Bust of king Bocchus of Mauretania, was previously under one of the portico of the Mattei palace :
Some Carthaginian coins :
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
The bearers of presents to the Queen from the Sultan of Morocco 1850, by JOHN ABSOLON (1815-95)
Abdallah ben Aicha, Ambassador of Morocco in Paris, 1699
Hadj Abdel karim bricha ambassador of Morocco in Spain, 1878
Mohamed ben Abdelmalik, ruler of Tanger and ambassador of Morocco in Austria, 1783
The same ambassador with his men :
two moroccans playing chess by josep tapiró baró XIXth century
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
Medinet Habu. Drawing by Virgilio Canziani plate 78. Ramesses III presenting Libyan prisoners to Amun and Mut. Exterior, (oriental institute)
Mut Temple. Drawing by Alfred Bollacher plate 119 B photographed by Henry Leichter. Ramesses III returning in triumph from a Libyan campaign
Medinet Habu. MH A 121. Libyan chieftains fleeing before the Pharaoh's onslaught (oriental institute)
Some coins of king Bocchus I after the Jugurthinian war :
Personification of Africa of the IInd century A.D., Museum of the Vatican :
Illustration of "Vella e Minĩa", poem n°180 from the Cantigas de Santa Maria, XIIIth century depicting the almohad caliph Abu Hafs Umar al Murtada and its troops :
Illustration of "The Moor who Venerated an Image of the Virgin Mary", poem 46 from the Cantigas de Santa Maria XIIIth century :
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
This has been a very interesting thread thus far. Now the following point I'd like to adders after Antalas posted his pictures collage.
How come 90% of ancient Egyptian art all over Egypt looks like the following and Antalas still fixes his mouth and hands to claim what he claims? You can't have to both ways, Antalas.
Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
^^Where is this photo from?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
tomb of Nakht. It's very small but has so to protect the art from a constant stream of tourist breathing on it they tired something unique, but sheet of glass in front of some of the walls
Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: This has been a very interesting thread thus far. Now the following point I'd like to adders after Antalas posted his pictures collage.
How come 90% of ancient Egyptian art all over Egypt looks like the following and Antalas still fixes his mouth and hands to claim what he claims? You can't have to both ways, Antalas.
I think he was posting pictures of Northwest Africans though, as in Maghrebis, not Egyptians.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
And Antalas hasn't posted since November 2022
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Here is a prehistoric depiction from Sahara showing some women riding on Oxen. The painting has an interesting color scheme.
Four ladies on a painting from Uan Derbuaen (Tasili-n-Ajjer, Algeria) Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^^ fake historical depictions of North-West Africans
___________________________________
In 2003 the British anthropologist Jeremy Keenan undertook a review of Lhote's publications and concluded that "many of the claims of the expedition's leader, Henri Lhote, were misleading, a number of the paintings were faked, and the copying process was fraught with errors." Keenan also found that the political context of French colonization of Algeria had influenced the treatment of the site and the interpretation of the artworks. In particular he singled out Abbé Breuil as "the arch-advocate of foreign influence in African rock art." He alleged that the expedition's methods caused damage to the rock art and "sterilized the archaeological landscape".
___________________________________________
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
In another threadJean-Loïc Le Quellec, anthropologist and prehistorian, specialist in the rock art of the Sahara answers a mail with someone wondering about the authenticity of the painting with the ladies riding the oxen:
quote: "Hello, These oxen-riding women are fully authentic and painted in the style of Iheren. There is not the slightest doubt about it. If it's not an indiscretion, I'd like a link to the discussion you're talking about. In any case, rest assured that these paintings are not fakes. These do exist, but they are rare and well known. Very cordially, JLLQ"
These oxen-riding women and similar paintings are also analyzed in a paper written in 2016 by Augustin F. C Holl:
quote: The Tassil-n-Ajjer mountain range is well known for its phenomenal richness in rock-shelters and cave paintings. Generations of researchers have surveyed, mapped, drafted and discussed different facets of these Tassili paintings. The diversity and versatility of the paintings traditions of the Tassili make difficult any attempt at straightforward generalization, whether stylistic or thematic. Each painting’s station appears to be unique and conveys its own suggestions that have to be studied extensively and systematically. In the approach outlined in this paper -the iconographic approach-, paintings are viewed as complex sets of ‘artifacts’ arranged by the creative minds of the actual artists. How did these artists practice their crafts? What iconic elements did they choose to represent and why? How and why are these selected elements arranged and combined? These are some of the questions addressed in this paper. The new readings of the Uan Derbuaen paintings allow to suggest a staging and grand representation of matrimonial arrangements, the final travel of the brides.
‘Here come the brides’: Reading the neolithic paintings from Uan Derbuaen (Tasili-n-Ajjer, Algeria)`
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Rarely is an artist after himself (except color <-> B&W) 
