And that, those Egyptians are almost always the same ones -, again and again, according to a list posted somewhere with names and pictures - that hurt those foreigners (many of them 'sex tourists' by the way) that actually go looking for it, with open arms and open wallets?

I am positive that most foreigners that go looking for quick fun in Egyptian resorts - with gigolos - are certainly not interested in the cultural, intellectual and historic side of Egypt - or so it seems according to all the stories, as they have no clue about social classes to start with etc..etc....and all you hear is Orfi not Orfi...apartment, sleeping before, sleeping after, sleeping where, with family without family, other wife many girlfriends, players ...then it's the SMS and web cam phase...pleaaase!

By all means, correct me if I'm wrong!

But your idea is brilliant of course, for the right crowd.

Salam
Monica

They are all busy actually, making a decent living!

About honest mediators: check my posts friend, you'll find out I've been really really trying - along with others!

quote:

---

Originally posted by wacobaco:
hi Monica, r u trying to make a list composed of egyptian job titles? sorry ..just kidding ..but still got ur point ..that u got my point .. which is exactly ur point .. and our points r the same points of others..sooo..what is the point?
i mean ..even after reading ur many many posts.. i think what i was saying here is some kind of association..not only one person with his/her relations with other few persons..no..big bond of characters..in which each has his own circles of friends..that need to come together through such a bond..did u get anything of what i'm saying? good..have a good day.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by wacobaco:
After reading so much posts here..one can conclude what is written as follow : - some foreigners in love with Egypt and Egyptians
- some foreigners in love with Egypt but burnt by Egyptians
- some Good Egyptians would die to socialize with foreigners (male/female vice versa ..with good intentions)
- some foreigners would like to take the risk and go under the experience of knowing Egyptians (even if it ends up sadly)
- some bad Egyptians having every possible way to get to know foreigners and use them cleverly
- some foreigners liked to be abused by their own wills by bad Egyptians
- some ..and ..some..and bla..bla ..bla..
Sooo the final result is MESS !!!
how about something like .. association..or bond..or whatever..with mutual command (foreigners and Egyptians) .. those who r trusted for both sides..try to make it true..(on solid bases ..like education, contacting language, interests.) maybe like what we used to have here in Egypt ( i mean Tourists Friends Association) in a more modernize way..to help all..i mean ALLS .. to get what they want..could that be possible one day? ..I wonder ?!!

---

But please rest assured that Monica is not an old guy!! That was a good example though, I guess I need to speak like a woman more often he he he..!

Some people on this board know me by the way!

But you have a point, we should discuss it further, so what about - and I'll speak like a guy now.. he he he - drafting a proposal here on ES, and see what goes!?...and if it gets the interest needed to really start it, I'll be active, as much as my time can permit it - my busy days are by crunches, you know.
What about that?

Looking forward to your proposal on the subject matter!

quote:

---

Originally posted by wacobaco:
Hi kay ..sure this forum is nice..and a preliminary stage of what i'm talking about..it is like a cold canned PEPSI while traveling in the desert..but how about big river then ? .. see my point? ..it may be part of the target..not the wanted target... i'm talking about real society .. one that based here ..and can help those foreigners living here ..or to come..those Egyptians living here ..or to travel abroad.. something really huge..international..but not necessarily governmental ..just few non-professonals volunteers and fans of the association can do it.. + which is better..to meet real people in real life..with real experiences and help..or to hear WacoBaco's experience ..who may be a little child..or listen to Monica.. whom u think she is talking from girl's viewpoint ..while she is in real life old guy ..or even discover that "kay in love" is symbol for "key" in real life...who know which is which..?..i'm talking about ..REAL LIFE..

---

What I'd like to see is a 'proposal' and then the reaction of the readers. If no one is interested, this conversation will die abrupltly anyway!

I can picture one of the main objectives being: GUIDING foreigners towards the right communities when residing in Egypt, as well as when visiting. In order to protect them and to contribute in stopping the disgusting nonsense that is happening now!

And if such an association exists already it will show up, once a research is conducted as part of the feasibility study for this 'not for profit' project...what about that ?

If people are serious this could be great.

i would love to be involved - not sure in what way i could help? but would do what i can

who is going to kick start the proposal???
dont think i have enough of the right knowledge

maybe wacobaco would like to get back to us?

i also still think that some of the objectives already exist on this board. there have been many threads about where to live, fors and agansts different areas - advice on hotels and what to see - i think that a board such as this has got a big part to play especialy as it is such a good first point of contact and can reach so many people from all around the world.

An official proposal is needed.
Meaning you draft it as a business proposition, here on this board with all your initial ideas in an organized way. We can all add or adjust the proposal, until we have a final document...

In the meantime people would start to show interest - or not, and we can take it from there, or not!

You could be one of the rotating members...we can have a voting committee for 'positions' and when in Egypt you can attend by-monthly meetings for example...we can at least make a Pilot out of this project, the cyber way!

But it's not going to work if it's only Kay the 'key' Monica the 'old guy' and wacobaco the 'child...!!!

Now, I have to run to a business meeting, before my Boss goes waco with me ...he he he!

quote:

---

Originally posted by kay in love:
monica
this sounds great

i would love to be involved - not sure in what way i could help? but would do what i can

who is going to kick start the proposal???
dont think i have enough of the right knowledge

maybe wacobaco would like to get back to us?

i also still think that some of the objectives already exist on this board. there have been many threads about where to live, fors and agansts different areas - advice on hotels and what to see - i think that a board such as this has got a big part to play especialy as it is such a good first point of contact and can reach so many people from all around the world.

as i said if i can be of any help then im happy to get involved.
much love kay X

---

By the way, Kay and Wacobaco, check the 'Find my son' by Zendano - thread in the 'Looking for people or a business' forum, and see if you both can support...in words... at least!

Thanks.
Monica

quote:

---

Originally posted by wacobaco:
look Tamy ..i won't blame u for ur desperate feeling ..coze i went through it many times..but i'll tell u something ..those who too k such bad ideas about us..coze they went through bad experiences with egyptians..so partially ..it is our own fault (Egyptians) .. even not all of us like that... generalization notion is a universal one..it means it is not only foreigners do so ..we do so too..Ex .. Russians r cold ..Germans r tough..British r arrogant..and so on..
sooo many bad Egyptians meet with foreigners and give bad image...how about giving the for good Egyptians to spread the real image ? maybe ur desperate feelings would drive u to be part of my idea..(as such feelings could drive much numbers of Egyptians o do the same) ..and the dream come true..!! who knows?

---

It is maybe irrealistic to start educating the world about decent Egyptians, in order to be recognized as a nice people..............or is it? and if we don't do it, who will????

It could be wonderful if we could clean up the tourist sector from those 'gigolos' by attracting the 'right' foreigners, instead of the sex tourists...but if that is what they want, it is their choice!

No?

MMMM...branching out again Monica...but it's an important issue though!

Let's start a campaign he he he....

What do you think?

Monica
...............................
My dad is a decent Egyptian man, and so is my brother!

quote:

---

Originally posted by jaguar:
Mr Wacobaco.... I wouldn't move an inch to prove/show how good we are. If they don't like it, they can lump it... I can assure you, that's how they think when we go to them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jaguar:
Monica.... are you basically Egyptian??

---

i guess this sounds great , u can count me in, the idea is brilliant actually and i will give all the support i can give,

if you had never been in a country before, and you just met someone - how can you already know about all you've written about? The "SMS" and "Webcam-Phase"????? Thanks for motivating all girls who absolutely have to start with it, even if they have a sincere relationship in mind. What did you do? Writing letters, see him the second time and then married legally with all consequenses? Of course there are good and bad and everyone have to find out what your partner is kind of. But how can you find out? By phone? By writing e-mails? No way!!!! Everyone can say and write everything what he wants if you can not see his face. And even if you see his face its difficult to find out whats real and whats not real. You are bored by questions about "Orfi or not Orfi"? Or by "sleeping before or after marriage?" But this is a forum. And I am glad that I find people who can explain to me egyptian cultural things, because I WANT TO KNOW MORE ABOUT CULTURE AND MENTALITY. And I think thats the reason why most of the people here are posting. Can you give me a hint how to start it a better way than by talking with the guy you want to meet again? Or do you think that everyone who is not "my class" is not right because Egyptians feel that way? You with your experience are the only one who knows these things. How can I know before getting more egyptian experiences. I do want to have more. But sorry, I fell in love before that. Am I now a "..." because I have to get this wisdom after I met an Egyptian man? Thanks a lot for this compliment.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Monica:
Have you also noticed that the Egyptians abusing foreigners, are ALL located in a very small area? [Hurghada-Sharm-Luxor]

And that, those Egyptians are almost always the same ones -, again and again, according to a list posted somewhere with names and pictures - that hurt those foreigners (many of them 'sex tourists' by the way) that actually go looking for it, with open arms and open wallets?

I am positive that most foreigners that go looking for quick fun in Egyptian resorts - with gigolos - are certainly not interested in the cultural, intellectual and historic side of Egypt - or so it seems according to all the stories, as they have no clue about social classes to start with etc..etc....and all you hear is Orfi not Orfi...apartment, sleeping before, sleeping after, sleeping where, with family without family, other wife many girlfriends, players ...then it's the SMS and web cam phase...pleaaase!

By all means, correct me if I'm wrong!

But your idea is brilliant of course, for the right crowd.

Salam
Monica

---

I really did not mean to offend anyone, but if you read some of the older posts here, you'll see that all women end up with broken hearts...and the ones that go for a 'good' time that end up 'falling in love' get trapped by the 'gigolos'...also end up with a broken heart.

I only wished that all women were aware that they should take their time to know the culture first, to understand 'classes' in Egypt and how they function, and what they think of foreigners in general, and which class respect them and which class abuse them... in order to understand the mentality of the person they are falling in love with.

So for example, you would come on this board to understand the mentality of an Egyptian man, wonderful...you came to the right place Jutta, so for example again, you give this board a description of his personality, his education, his class, his family influence etc..etc... and this board having the experience through hundreds of posts, and through outside stories that actually make the news about gigolos, will tell you in a second the guy IS or is Not a gigolo!

Up to you to go for it or not...and up to me to make a comment that some of the people just go for 'fun' and some of the people don't really bother to find out about EGYPT per se, but only care about a man they met in a resort that is fitting the characteristics of a player...but still don't believe the board and the posts, and the stories that are always exactly the same clichés....what can I tell you Jutta...?

One important note: MOST of the time, if you sleep with a Muslim Egyptian man in Egypt without being married to him, he will NOT respect you...will marry you?...maybe...he will leave you later?...probably...why? because that is mostly the Egyptian mentality. There are some exceptions of course, in different circles different upbringing, exposed to different mentalities.

How do I know? I was born and raised there and that is ALL you hear, ALL the time while growing up!

Decent Egyptian families are very particular when it comes to marriage, the 'man' is checked inside out, they find out about his family, his reputation, everything because there is no way that any decent Egyptian family will let a daughter marry within an obscure family, and thus, marry a man that has a bad reputation.

That is the decent side of Egypt Jutta!

And in arabic:

'Deeh Misr ya Jutta!'

Orfi is also an issue with decent Egyptian families, it is considered a 'shame'. Will that offend all Orfi married women? Well, what can I tell you but: Don't shoot the messenger, people!

I wish you Good luck...and sincerely, be careful!

Monica
.............................
My dad is a decent Egyptian man, and so is my brother!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rimo:

You definitely sound like a Guy now Don't overdo it you might wake up with a moustache and a potbelly

---

Thank you fo the nice words.

About this isue, It's not easy to cut through the clutter, and the buzz, and the bad propaganda and the bad experiences; and everything negative is usually so difficult to erase....

I have to admit that after reading so many negative posts within the past 8 months, it is very frustrating to see that Egyptian men are mostly bashed because of a bunch of 'gigolos'.

And that most foreigners are indeed heartbroken.

But wacobaco started a nice topic, so we 're shooting positive ideas, and who knows?

Have a great evening!

Monica
....................................
My dad is a decent Egyptian man, and so is my brother!

I am positive that most foreigners that go looking for quick fun in Egyptian resorts - with gigolos - are certainly not interested in the cultural, intellectual and historic side of Egypt - or so it seems according to all the stories, as they have no clue about social classes to start with
By all means, correct me if I'm wrong!"

I am correcting you Monica..... not all "gigolos" are from the tourist resorts and not all "foreigners" are sex tourists with no interest in the cultural, intellectual and historical side of Egypt.
I myself, study egyptology, the culture and history of Egypt are what brought me there in the first place. I am educated, my profession being that of an accountant. Yet I have been an Orfi wife, and I have no regrets. I know you will say that you didnt mean me personally, that not all foreigners are sex tourists.... but you have said you would like to attract the "right" sort of tourists instead of the sex tourists.
Let me tell you something, these professional egyptians which you speak of can be just as bad as the gigolos. No, they can be worse because they hide behind their so called respectability. I love my internet, I have many many friends all over the world because of the internet. I will be in Florida in May to attend the wedding of a very dear friend I met in a chat room.
And in those chat rooms I met egyptian men. Not the lower classes who work in the tourist industry (they cant afford pc's at home), but
"The lawyers, the accountants, the translators, the army Engineers the civil Engineers, the computer Engineers, sales people, marketing people, the librarians, the researchers, the professors, the surgeons, the dentists, the business entrepreneurs, the journalists, the writers, the poets, the educated people you mean!
They are all busy actually, making a decent living!"
and believe me....... from personal experience they are no better than the gigolo... in fact, give me a gigolo any day, at least they are honest in what they want from us.
I could name names, I could tell you of a certain married dentistry professor who professed to want friendship, but turned out to be only interested in cybersex... or the computer programmer who travelled the world selling and demonstrating software systems.... who I actually met in real life, who was a perfect gentleman, until he thought I trusted him implicitly, then he showed his true colours.
No Monica..... I am correcting you. Generalisations of "foreigners" and of "educated, intellectual egyptians" are always just that. General.

I am actually exploring the idea of delivering the information to the tourists, in a 'workshop' format!

To be continued......

Thinking Monica!

That was very honest, straight to the point, and extremely informative.

I did ask to correct me if I was wrong, so thank you for giving us the dark side, based on your knowledge.

My post was related to the stories read on this board, by the way!

But does it mean that every Egyptian accountant and every Egyptian doctor etc...has a cyber adventure?

And when I say 'decent' I mean the decent Egyptians within every class and every profession. The bunch that you have encountered on the net, pretended to be decent Egyptians at first, but at the end of the day they were not decent at all...so they do not count within the decent bunch, in my book.

I'm not really sure if you are serious in terms of being a sex tourist, or if it's a joke, so what can I say but: whatever makes you happy!

The gigolo's approach vs the obscure type, that uncovers his mask later, is not an option for me and many others. I certainly despise both types.

But you did make your point, not all sex tourists are uneducated, and not all intellectuals are decent.

Enjoy the wedding in Florida!

Monica
........................................
Cairo population: 15 million
Egypt population: 70 million

originally posted by Shareen
Monica said....
"Have you also noticed that the Egyptians abusing foreigners, are ALL located in a very small area? [Hurghada-Sharm-Luxor]
And that, those Egyptians are almost always the same ones -, again and again, according to a list posted somewhere with names and pictures - that hurt those foreigners (many of them 'sex tourists' by the way) that actually go looking for it, with open arms and open wallets?
I am positive that most foreigners that go looking for quick fun in Egyptian resorts - with gigolos - are certainly not interested in the cultural, intellectual and historic side of Egypt - or so it seems according to all the stories, as they have no clue about social classes to start with
By all means, correct me if I'm wrong!"

I am correcting you Monica..... not all "gigolos" are from the tourist resorts and not all "foreigners" are sex tourists with no interest in the cultural, intellectual and historical side of Egypt.
I myself, study egyptology, the culture and history of Egypt are what brought me there in the first place. I am educated, my profession being that of an accountant. Yet I have been an Orfi wife, and I have no regrets. I know you will say that you didnt mean me personally, that not all foreigners are sex tourists.... but you have said you would like to attract the "right" sort of tourists instead of the sex tourists.
Let me tell you something, these professional egyptians which you speak of can be just as bad as the gigolos. No, they can be worse because they hide behind their so called respectability. I love my internet, I have many many friends all over the world because of the internet. I will be in Florida in May to attend the wedding of a very dear friend I met in a chat room.
And in those chat rooms I met egyptian men. Not the lower classes who work in the tourist industry (they cant afford pc's at home), but
"The lawyers, the accountants, the translators, the army Engineers the civil Engineers, the computer Engineers, sales people, marketing people, the librarians, the researchers, the professors, the surgeons, the dentists, the business entrepreneurs, the journalists, the writers, the poets, the educated people you mean!
They are all busy actually, making a decent living!"
and believe me....... from personal experience they are no better than the gigolo... in fact, give me a gigolo any day, at least they are honest in what they want from us.
I could name names, I could tell you of a certain married dentistry professor who professed to want friendship, but turned out to be only interested in cybersex... or the computer programmer who travelled the world selling and demonstrating software systems.... who I actually met in real life, who was a perfect gentleman, until he thought I trusted him implicitly, then he showed his true colours.
No Monica..... I am correcting you. Generalisations of "foreigners" and of "educated, intellectual egyptians" are always just that. General.

------------------
Sex tourist

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shareen:

and believe me....... from personal experience they are no better than the gigolo... in fact, give me a gigolo any day, at least they are honest in what they want from us.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
Why does the blame always extend to the Egyptians? Doesn't it take two to tango?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jaguar:
Shareen... I admire your frankness, but don't you think it is a bit of a sluttish statment you made??

---

Not at all she spoke the truth. I would prefer to have a man be honest with me any day. Deceit is the number one thing I hate in anyone.

Whether or not you take him up on it is another matter and Shareen didn't comment on whether she would do that.

As we were saying, I read your points and I thought of a workshop format to deliver the information to the 'foeigners'. But remember at this point:

1- we still don't know if such an association exists
2- we don't have enough participants yet -lack of time or interest
3- we still did not research the possibility of turning it into reality

What is needed:
a) to find out if such an organization or a similar one does in fact exist
b) wait to catch more participants
c) and then start researching

I know for a fact that the French cultural centre in Cairo is something to look into when we start our collective research!

We are not in a rush, true, but we are interested in achieving goals.

QUOTE]Originally posted by wacobaco:
JUST GREAT .. guys..u have all such enthusiasm .. just to talk ? ..to defend ur viewpoints? ..to attack each others? ...good ..no problem..but save part of ur enthusiasm and talk for the main target..the real cause of this post..still remember it ? ..i doubt !! .. Monica asked for proposals and ideas..and i gave some..asking for more..(maybe these ideas could be turned into real facts after all) ..but what i got? .. please.. participate ..share .. but ..to the point.. don't drag the whole forum to ONLY personal experience,talk, fight, criticism, ..or even gaining new friend...take it step by step..from the main aim..till the end..and i believe other things (friendship enmity, criticism..) would come in its time...concentrate Monica..SALAM [/QUOTE]

The idea is great. There is so much to learn, understand and admire about Egypt, and foreigners are shown so little. I'm all for it.

My two cents about the sex tourism: IGNORE IT. Really. Here's my theory:

many people like the idea of "letting their hair down" and doing things they've always wanted to do but didn't because they fear moral rejection from the community. Doing these things in a foreign country is ideal, because no one knows you and you leave soon anyway.

Men have been doing sex tourism since the beginning of time. From truck drivers and sailors to modern-day tourists, they like to get a little nooky far away from home. But it is not in men's nature to complain openly and discuss this issue. I mean, there are so-called stag parties organized in Prague by the Brits (i.e. a groom-to-be organizes an all-men trip - or bachelor party - with 20 - 30 of his pals and they get as wild as possible, as a symbol that the good old days are over and now he is heading for marriage). But I've yet to see a website of men complaining about being abandoned by foreign prostitutes in their trip.

In Egypt, this sex tourism is done by women. This is something completely new for many women. And women tend to complain a lot, loudly, and sometimes without self-restraint or self-respect. I strongly believe there is 10 times as much sex tourism going on in France, Spain or the Eastern Countries than in Egypt, but since men don't talk about it it seems like Egypt is a big culprit. It isn't.

There will always people who visit a country to understand its people and its country, and people who visit a country just to have some glossy photographs to show their friends.

For the first category, let's have a society and discover Egypt in a totally new and wonderful way.

Lori

I will be away from ES for a few days, maybe 1 week or so.

Please do not think I'm letting you down on this nice dream/ future not for profit information/association/Egyptians/Foreigners society project!

One last thing before I go:

Lori's post made me realize that after all we can inform people online - through this thread actually starting next week for example, in an organized way, step by step taking questions and making sure the answer is based on facts, and then we can turn the cyber society to a real one, what do you think???

Salam
Monica

I'm going to be away from ES for at least 1 week, so I wanted to say...thanks for all your replies!

Bon Voyage!(Would you take pictures, and then post them? he he he)

Monica

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shareen:

---

Its back to the generalisation thing... lower class, middle class, upper class, honesty and trustworthyness. I wish you luck in your project.

Oh.... and my signature is a joke, it was a name given to me here by someone who does not know me.

I'm also going to open a new thread in all forums for everyone to see this site. I'll be back soon. My work is a bit of a heavy load these days.

Let me know what you think, and if you have any ideas when you study the site, let us know!

Thanks for your trust. I will try to come up with something that will hopefully have a great impact...in a few days..

Cheers!
Monica
..................................
Egypt: I am intoxicated by your eternal beauty!

people from that board that live in cairo regularly get together and rent a boat for a party or a felluca ride...it's a mix of expats and egyptians and we tend to invite friends from real life to meet wt people off the board.

nothing formal yet from it have begun many friendships and it's quite a large yet intimate community that's supplemented by the people who regularly visit egypt. like shareen.

though we always end up missing one another so we've never actually met on one of these things. LOL