posted
I'd like the response of Egyptian men, though I kinda know that will be few and far between unless a lot have signed up here in the past year or so.
Just a carryover from another conversation on another board about Egyptian men. Some of the things they do are so nice and loving and boy do they ever have a sense of humor, right??? lol.
Ok but some can be a wee bit particular about the way their wives dress. Of course there are the exceptions to every rule but from what I've read and even experienced to some extent, the theory seems to hold water.
So, Egyptian men, I have a question for you. If your muslim wife observed hijab in dressing such as no showing arms/legs/covering hair when you met her but then wanted to wear a short sleeved shirt outside the house all of a sudden and asked you if you minded, what would you say?
ok who's got the popcorn? Posts: 1808 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
I know one, who had this. He said it was her own choice, so he didn't make an issue out of it. Note to mention, she was not wearing hijab when they met, and wore western clothes. After time she changen and started to wear hijab and long islamic dresses. Then she changed again, now it is hijab with western clothes. Think she is searching...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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If *I* were a boy I'd try to show my wife why I'd prefer that she remain in hijab (long sleeves, long skirt/slacks,etc.) and then try to understand why she wants to change things around.
posted
I don't see why either side (husband or wife) should have any say over what the other wears. Each is there own being and they should have the freedom to make their own choices. Religion is personal and shouldn't give leverage to the man in the relationship simply because he has external plumbing.
Posts: 246 | From: but one life to live | Registered: Jun 2008
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I was in hijab when I met my hubby, he has always said thats why he was interested because I was already muslim. On one visit here before I moved we were out with friends and he saw me dripping and told me to take it off (the scarf) and Islam is here (pointing to his heart) and not here (pointing to my hair). I did take it off that week but I did feel uncomfortable. This is 5 years ago and recently as some know, I have started to not wear a scarf. I certainly didnt ask him first and he would never tell me I had to wear it, thats my choice, although I know he prefers me to wear it.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Will tell you what my hubby always tells me...my relationship with god is between me and god....hasn't got anything to do with anyone else.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by HandsUpHandsDown: I don't see why either side (husband or wife) should have any say over what the other wears. Each is there own being and they should have the freedom to make their own choices. Religion is personal and shouldn't give leverage to the man in the relationship simply because he has external plumbing.
That's my opinion too.
But in Egyptian culture many people believe that how the wife dresses reflects on the man. So if he lets her go out in an outfit that is considered *not decent*, he will be looked upon as a weakling who doesn't have sufficient control over his wife. Also, many people believe that it is a man's duty to urge his wife to follow what they consider proper Islamic practice.
European or American women who are married to an Egyptian and converted to Islam often think that it is their duty to be obedient to their husband because that's what conservative clerics make them believe. Also, many falsely assume that because their husband is a born Muslim, his knowledge about Islam exceeds their own. So they believe they have to comply with his commands.
Personally, I wouldn't even get involved with a man who thinks that way in the first place. And vice versa -- such a guy wouldn't be interested in me either. Alhamdullilah! Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote: So, Egyptian men, I have a question for you. If your muslim wife observed hijab in dressing such as no showing arms/legs/covering hair when you met her but then wanted to wear a short sleeved shirt outside the house all of a sudden and asked you if you minded, what would you say?
I'm not an egyptian man (oh am I? Mwahahahaha), but this reminded me of a conversation I had with a certain egyptian ex of mine. He was engaged to an Egyptian woman about a year before meeting me, and she didn't want to wear her hijab on her wedding day. Anyway, he told her if she doesn't wear it that day, then she should never wear it again. She refused that because it was important to her, so he told her she had to wear it on their wedding then! No wonder why the engagement didn't last. Personally, it is no one else’s business what someone wears. I would love to see my dad try to tell my mum what she can and cannot wear lol. I bet many egy guys would say they would be ok with it, but in actuality they would have some serious issues.
Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Penny: Hi doodlebug, nice to see you back.
Will tell you what my hubby always tells me...my relationship with god is between me and god....hasn't got anything to do with anyone else.
Hi Penny!
That is so true about the relationship being between God and the person solely. The thing is though the husband does eventually have to answer for the wife in Islam, which is kind of why this question came up in another forum. That and culturally Egyptian men tend to feel prideful when their wives dress a certain way. (just going by what I've heard, again there are always exceptions to the rules).
Of course not one response here from an Egyptian male. Posts: 1808 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
I think they have this deal going where if a girl starts wearing hijab by her own choice, she more or less has to keep it up. It's a bit of a no-no to suddenly decide to get rid of it. Looks bad, a fall from grace really. Quite a few Egyptian men have told me this.
Posts: 14 | From: alex | Registered: Jul 2009
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quote: So, Egyptian men, I have a question for you. If your muslim wife observed hijab in dressing such as no showing arms/legs/covering hair when you met her but then wanted to wear a short sleeved shirt outside the house all of a sudden and asked you if you minded, what would you say?
I'm not an egyptian man (oh am I? Mwahahahaha), but this reminded me of a conversation I had with a certain egyptian ex of mine. He was engaged to an Egyptian woman about a year before meeting me, and she didn't want to wear her hijab on her wedding day. Anyway, he told her if she doesn't wear it that day, then she should never wear it again. She refused that because it was important to her, so he told her she had to wear it on their wedding then! No wonder why the engagement didn't last. Personally, it is no one else’s business what someone wears. I would love to see my dad try to tell my mum what she can and cannot wear lol. I bet many egy guys would say they would be ok with it, but in actuality they would have some serious issues.
Yeah I think there's something about taking it off once the person put it on that seems worse to some than never putting it on in the first place.
My humble opinion on the wedding thing: I never understood why a woman wearing hijab would even want to take it off for one day. Especially when that day, of all days, is so very public. Sure she'd look pretty but there are so many very beautiful alternatives that include a beautiful white head covering.
Posts: 1808 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by doodlebug: The thing is though the husband does eventually have to answer for the wife in Islam
The Qur'an clearly states that every soul is responsible for itself. It says that the believing men and women are awliya (friends, protectors, supporters) of one another (9:71).
It's scholars, mostly of the Salafi school of thought, who claim that the husband is responsible for his wife's actions, and they usually base that claim on a very twisted interpretation of 4:34.
Saying that the husband will have to answer for his wife is like saying that somehow he is better able to distinguish right from wrong, that he is somehow superior in morals, or knowledge, or faith. And that's exactly what those scholars keep claiming. But that's contrary to what the Qur'an actually says on the subject, not to mention contrary to common sense, logic and justice.
God does not put the woman in the position of a child.
quote:Originally posted by doodlebug: Of course not one response here from an Egyptian male.
But would that really help you? At the end of the day it will be your decision to make.
Egyptian men are not all the same, and of course their opinions are not all the same. I have a bunch of Egyptian male friends who are completely against the veil, for example.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:It's scholars, mostly of the Salafi school of thought, who claim that the husband is responsible for his wife's actions, and they usually base that claim on a very twisted interpretation of 4:34.
The Quran in Sura 4:34 says:
"Men are managers of the affairs of women because Allah has made the one superior to the other."
Who is twisting the apparent meaning of the words, the scholars or you? I don't think their interpretation of the verse is twisted. When I read the verse I understand the exact same thing. As you can see the misogynic hadiths that you reject are not contrary to the spirit of the Quran.
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
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quote:It's scholars, mostly of the Salafi school of thought, who claim that the husband is responsible for his wife's actions, and they usually base that claim on a very twisted interpretation of 4:34.
The Quran in Sura 4:34 says:
"Men are managers of the affairs of women because Allah has made the one superior to the other."
Who is twisting the apparent meaning of the words, the scholars or you?
you and some scholars 004.034 YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I think it depends on the man really. I don't necessarily think this is an Egyptian man issue as much as it's a Muslim man issue. Some are more religious than others. Some aren't really religious but it's more about keeping up with appearances (this is the case most of the time IMO). Some don't care how a wife dresses in the US or other Western country but care how they dress in Egypt or other Arab country. Again, I would say it's a case by case decision not a blanketed thing.
Gosh I really hope this thread doesn't turn into a religious argument.
"I have seldom met an intelligent person whose views were not narrowed and distorted by religion."
Posts: 2735 | From: my desk | Registered: Jul 2005
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And let two men from among you bear witness to all such documents [contracts of loans without interest]. But if two men be not available, there should be one man and two women to bear witness so that if one of the women forgets (anything), the other may remind her.
Here we have another verse 'in the same spirit' with the previous verse.
It seems that the foundational reason for having two women witnesses is that one of the women may "forget" something. Again, this goes to the nature of womankind. Philosophers teach us that one of the main differences between animals and humans lies in humankind’s rationality. But this verse implies that a woman’s mind is weak. How is this verse not misogynistic? There are too many such verses to ignore
This hadith removes any ambiguity about women in Sura 2:282:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
The Prophet said, "Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind."
We also see the hadiths are in conformity with the Quran. The general attitude is the same. Says the Quran: "Men are a degree above [women] in status" (Sura 2:228); and "Allah has made the one [mankind] superior to the other [womankind]" (Sura 4:34) Allah himself made men superior to women, so asserts Muhammad. He also says in the hadith: "This [diminishment of a woman’s testimony] is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind."
Clearly, Allah and his prophet absorbed too much of seventh-century Arab culture in their "universal revelations."
Therefore, if later Muslim leaders are patriarchal and derogatory towards womankind, then they are closely following and correctly reading the universal pronouncements in the Quran and the hadith.
Muhammad’s Quran on womankind is too culture-bound and patriarchal to be relevant today.
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
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quote:Originally posted by unfinished thought.: Who is twisting the apparent meaning of the words, the scholars or you?
4:34 is one of the most controversial verses in the Qur'an and it's been discussed here and elsewhere countless times.
We can stick to interpretations from scholars who lived hundreds of years ago in utterly patriarchal societies, which is what the Salafis and many conservative scholars are doing.
We can also look at what some contemporary scholars who come to very different conclusions have to say on the verse.
We can do our own research, read the Arabic text, check the different possible translations of the words in question, and take a look at other verses where the same words have been used in order to get an idea of the possible meaning. And of course it would help to take a look at verses which describe the relationship between husband and wife and see whether a particular translation / interpretation is in accordance with those.
I've done all of the above and thus come to my personal conclusions. So please don't insult my intelligence by throwing one of at least a dozen possible translations at me and suggesting it's the only one out there and that all scholars unanomimously agree on this.
This thread is about a particular practical problem, why don't you stick to the religious section with your copy and paste spam?
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
Here is an input by an Egyptian male! I would just want to point out that not ALL Egyptian males are Muslims. We have Coptic Egyptian males that might give you a different perspective altogether. Nevertheless, I think I personally would fit your criteria, but I’m not sure my answer would/might help you.
When Huda Sharawy returned back to the port of Alexandria- Egypt, after attending a conference in Europe in the early years of the 1900’s, the first thing she did was to take of her Higab, an action which was followed by her female companions. Higab was imbedded into the Egyptian cultural, tradition and religious conscious ever since the Arab rule took over Egypt centuries before.
Egyptians were taken aback by this “bold” move, but Egypt at the time was in the climate of it’s “Renaissance” and if some Egyptians did not comprehend that move nor agreed with it, but no one accused Sharawy of blasphemy.
In front of the famous Cairo University in Guiza, build during the aforementioned Renaissance era, there stands the statue of the famous Egyptian sculpturer Mahmoud Mokhtar, were he portrayed a big statue of a woman tearing her veil off while thousands of female Egyptian students in the university are busy putting it back on! This contrast of actions explicitly explains the transaction of the Egyptian perception of veiling.
So what happened? Did the Egyptian awareness of religion suddenly picked up? Did the “chastity” level change into a higher bar? Or is it a host of different social interactions that developed due to economic, social injustice and “Petro-dollar” influences? What we are sure of is that religion never changed. So what must have happened is a change in the way it was perceived during Sharawy’s time, i.e. a more tamed tolerant perception, then the way it does today; i.e. a more strict, fundamental perception.
My own mother, aunts and relatives were all very chastise women, yet like most urban Egyptian women, never thought to take the Higab simply because it wasn’t pushed on them by the society. So what it boils down to nowadays is peer pressure, social awareness and the infamous Egyptian “blending in” virtue. Not all Egyptian girls who are veiled today did that with full convincement. Some of them did, but some were forced to do it under different circumstances like I mentioned.
Since this is a social topic, I’m not going to enter a religious view into it, and keep it within the social roof, to do justice to your question though, I would point out that the response of Egyptian Muslim males to that situation will vary according to the following criteria:
1) Urban or rural. 2) Level of education. 3) Quality of education. 4) His religious adaptation. 5) Personal traits.
Personally, if you ask me, I would agree with Ayisha’s hubby, and that it is all in the heart, and definitely not in appearances. Hope I helped ☺
Posts: 657 | From: Cairo | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
"....Since this is a social topic, I’m not going to enter a religious view into it, and keep it within the social roof, "
phewwww...!thanks,Subzero for keeping it out of the religious section view.Very appreciated.
Those interested in religious views should go to Religion Section,and spare the rest for those not interested at least for the moment.
Posts: 3833 | From: here,there,everywhere | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:4:34 is one of the most controversial verses in the Qur'an
Controversial? Not really. Last time I checked all Islamic schools of thought were in agreement.
quote:We can stick to interpretations from scholars who lived hundreds of years ago in utterly patriarchal societies, which is what the Salafis and many conservative scholars are doing.
That's because the content of the Quran IS patriarchal.
quote:This thread is about a particular practical problem, why don't you stick to the religious section with your copy and paste spam?
You have yourself 'hijacked' numerable threads before with your copy and pastes, 'This is a free board' remember? (your own words)
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
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-------------------- your ass is so tight when you fart only a dog can hear it.when you queef only a cat can hear that one. Posts: 9776 | From: You like If only mosquitoes sucked fat instead of blood. | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: But would that really help you? At the end of the day it will be your decision to make.
Actually I just posted this for fun. I don't really have a decision to make. My husband and I both discussed hijab before and after he arrived here. Although he'd rather I wear the scarf he has said before that if I am in danger (being vandalized, chastized, etc.) then he will stand beside my decision to remove it.
As for short sleeves, etc. I have no desire to go back to wearing those or shorts. I wear tank tops and shorts/skirts in the house but honestly I'd feel half naked if I wore them outside. I normally wear gauze like cotton long sleeved t shirts underneath a sleeveless long shirt in the summer. I like it that way so I don't have to spend the time and $$ putting on sunscreen and the fabric is so very light it breathes perfectly.
I guess everyone is right, it's basically a muslim thing and it changes from man to man depending on who they are. Thanks everyone! Boy this place has changed btw!!!
Posts: 1808 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by unfinished thought.: You have a brain?? I am surprised.
I cant find where you copy/pasted this from, can you provide a link please Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Well,,Its quite dangerous to post now as an egyptian male because it feels like there is sort of GENERAL furstration in the forum at the egyptian men but I'll post anyway
Sorry but I hope you would be patient with me cause I'd like to talk about the matter firstly from a general prespective.
What I see that the preference about somethings is one thing and talking about it is another thing and whining/ordering to do something is absolutely another thing...
While the first and second things could be healthier IMHO about any thing-not just clothes- in the relationship and the third one is such an absolute damage to any realtionship.
The first and second ones are healthier because its more about discussing/talking about life issues/choices since the concept of the relationship is about two partners who are sharing life together and it includes talking about each preferences not for the man only but for the woman as well cause it more to build the relationship..Such as when friends talk together..take opinions etc not like playing some chess game which someone must win at the end of it...
And the third one is a damage cause it goes along with "If you love me you wont do this,,If you want me happy you will do this..etc...",,And here it wont be a relationship at all but sort of a silly joke which only one side in it will be happy because s/he is making everything according to his/her plan while the other side is emotionally drained,,Feel sad,,Losing his/herself and by way or another,,Feel s/he is being emotionally blackmailed...,,It will might remain for sometime weeks,months or even years but at last I believe it will end dramatically as the norm goes.
But as for the cloth thing,,I'd repeat Dalia's words 'At the end of day its the woman's decision to make',,If she wanted to take her man opinion about it she will,,If not she will not but at last it will still be her OWN decision to make,,And I dont think being affected or feel forced while NOT convinced by her man's opinion about it will help their relationship in healthy way if it happened like that.
But for women if you wondering about your hubby's opinion you can think of it by another way,,For example imagine it if its reversed and you knew your hubby with some specific look at first then married etc,,And after it he wanted to change..like growing some beard or wear some white galabya or dress like a goth style,,decided like wanna try cockscomb haircut or anything..How would you feel,,What would you do,,Would you discuss him about it or stay silent and keep your opinion to yourself,,Or would you apply the way of.. "If you love me you will do this" ???
Think of how you will react and the fair thing is to demand from him the same reaction in return.
And from religious point of view about Hijab particulary,,IMHO it shouldnt be forced on the woman since it suppose to be like something between her and her God,,If its forced it would be like imposing someone to pray so what is the point then,,Praying or doing religious rituals in general whatever it is,,would be forced but what the point if for example Im not praying indeed cause I want to but pretending to pray cause that will make people satisfied on me,,The result at last is the same which is I didnt pray plus Im being a liar,,Lying at myself,,at people and first of All lying at God.
I mean simply if someone believe about specfic thing in religion as a commitment s/he will do it,,If not s/he wont do it,,Forcing it on them would lead to so negative results at the end.
Posts: 712 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ......: Well,,Its quite dangerous to post now as an egyptian male because it feels like there is sort of GENERAL furstration in the forum at the egyptian men but I'll post anyway
Sorry but I hope you would be patient with me cause I'd like to talk about the matter firstly from a general prespective.
What I see that the preference about somethings is one thing and talking about it is another thing and whining/ordering to do something is absolutely another thing...
While the first and second things could be healthier IMHO about any thing-not just clothes- in the relationship and the third one is such an absolute damage to any realtionship.
The first and second ones are healthier because its more about discussing/talking about life issues/choices since the concept of the relationship is about two partners who are sharing life together and it includes talking about each preferences not for the man only but for the woman as well cause it more to build the relationship..Such as when friends talk together..take opinions etc not like playing some chess game which someone must win at the end of it...
And the third one is a damage cause it goes along with "If you love me you wont do this,,If you want me happy you will do this..etc...",,And here it wont be a relationship at all but sort of a silly joke which only one side in it will be happy because s/he is making everything according to his/her plan while the other side is emotionally drained,,Feel sad,,Losing his/herself and by way or another,,Feel s/he is being emotionally blackmailed...,,It will might remain for sometime weeks,months or even years but at last I believe it will end dramatically as the norm goes.
But as for the cloth thing,,I'd repeat Dalia's words 'At the end of day its the woman's decision to make',,If she wanted to take her man opinion about it she will,,If not she will not but at last it will still be her OWN decision to make,,And I dont think being affected or feel forced while NOT convinced by her man's opinion about it will help their relationship in healthy way if it happened like that.
But as a woman if you wondering about your hubby's opinion you can think of it by another way,,For example imagine it if its reversed and you knew your hubby with some specific look at first then married etc,,And after it he wanted to change..like growing some beard or wear some white galabya or dress like a goth style,,decided like wanna try cockscomb haircut or anything..How would you feel,,What would you do,,Would you discuss him about it or stay silent and keep your opinion to yourself,,Or would you apply the way of.. "If you love me you will do this" ???
Think of how you will react and the fair thing is to demand from him the same reaction in return.
And from religious point of view about Hijab particulary,,IMHO it shouldnt be forced on the woman since it suppose to be like something between her and her God,,If its forced it would be like imposing someone to pray so what is the point then,,Praying or doing religious rituals in general whatever it is would be forced but what the point if for example Im not praying indeed cause I want to but pretending to pray cause that will make people satisfied on me,,The result at last is the same which is I didnt pray plus Im being a liar,,Lying at myself,,at people and first of All lying at God.
I mean simply if someone believe about specfic thing in religion as a commitment s/he will do it,,If not s/he wont do it,,Forcing it on them would lead to so negative results at the end.
+++YoU'Re ThE DeViL!!! look at the number of your posts as of now+++ 666
Posts: 380 | From: USA | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted
Lady F welcome back! I can see it, I just wasnt sure on the spelling
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Pmsl.... finally, someone who can see what I can see
maybe i need to spread my horisons a little but hell no thats too damn much to keep attention to read.. its all blah blah blah blah to my eyes...
Posts: 9776 | From: You like If only mosquitoes sucked fat instead of blood. | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Unfinished thought I'd save your breath if I were you because you have one was hot one day took of her Hijab now never wears it, thinks that islam is all in the heart and not in the actions, another shaytana thinks she knows everything about Islam but is amongst the most sinister of the lot, and the rest just stick their fingers in their ears and cover their eyes because they only want to hear what THEY want to hear.
You mock, but Allah will mock you all one day.
save your breath mate seriously, the best answer to the stupid is silence.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Beba: one was hot one day took of her Hijab now never wears it, thinks that islam is all in the heart and not in the actions, another shaytana thinks she knows everything about Islam but is amongst the most sinister of the lot
Screaming "shaytan" and "kufr" again? What made you crawl out of your cage?
quote:Originally posted by Beba: Unfinished thought I'd save your breath if I were you because you have one was hot one day took of her Hijab now never wears it, thinks that islam is all in the heart and not in the actions, another shaytana thinks she knows everything about Islam but is amongst the most sinister of the lot, and the rest just stick their fingers in their ears and cover their eyes because they only want to hear what THEY want to hear.
You mock, but Allah will mock you all one day.
save your breath mate seriously, the best answer to the stupid is silence.
You know I was thinking of you just days ago. I wondered if you've found the truth yet and gave up on religion altogether
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Beba: Unfinished thought I'd save your breath if I were you
I agree with this
quote:because you have one was hot one day took of her Hijab now never wears it, thinks that islam is all in the heart and not in the actions,
today was 50 degrees at 10am
hijab is not Islamic it is cultural
Islam is in the heart AND in the actions of not judging people you dont know AND not following others for the sake of following others who perform rituals and think its more to do with a scarf than being a good person.
quote: another shaytana thinks she knows everything about Islam but is amongst the most sinister of the lot,
sounds like yourself, dont know any other that fits that judgement
quote: and the rest just stick their fingers in their ears and cover their eyes because they only want to hear what THEY want to hear.
*sticks fingers in ears and goes LALALALALALA*
quote:You mock, but Allah will mock you all one day.
YOU mock Allah, you mock Islam and bring it down to a piece of cloth? get thee behind me!
quote:save your breath mate seriously, the best answer to the stupid is silence.
If you had half a brain you would see that UT is very incredibly ANTI MUSLIM Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Its sad and shocking to see you a once fully veiled lady who accepted hijab was islamic and went through so much for that and now you see someone loosing his Islam, one day veiled next day not, one day praying next day not, before you know it there will be no difference between you and a dis believer.
I dont know UT on this thread he seemed to defend the truth so I defended the truth also,
(p.s I still I have a hell of a lot of respect and fondness in my heart for you! but not for your personal version of Islam I hate your disbelief not you)
Believe what you like at the end of the day but always remember you will just like I will be accountable for our actions, keep good freinds! the Prophet sallahu alyahi salam said the good company (good freind)is like when one visits and departs a perfume shop he will come away smelling nice, the bad company (bad freind) is like the one who went to visit the blacksmiths he will come away blackened and dirty, do not let that be you. Stay away from perversed people.
The Noble Qur'an - Al-Ahzab 33:59
O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils)* all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
*the arabic word here is Jalabeeb (plural of Jalbaab), which is the loose outer garment that covers all a woman's body. It says here to use the Jalabeeb to cover all, and scholars say this means to use it to cover her head (agree upon by all scholars) and her face (agreed by many scholars, not all) and one or both eyes, in order for it to be known that she is a free woman and so not to be exposed to any harm.
Your actions are by obeying, so obey. not just saying Im a good person so was mother theresa that wouldnt of got her any where.
posted
Is just me, or does the (stuff in parentheses) seem to be points of contention?
Posts: 758 | From: Here. There. Everywhere. | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Beba: Its sad and shocking to see you a once fully veiled lady who accepted hijab was islamic and went through so much for that and now you see someone loosing his Islam, one day veiled next day not, one day praying next day not, before you know it there will be no difference between you and a dis believer.
Doesnt the Quran say that the best hijab is piety?
a scarf is not Islamic, it is cultural.
My prayers AND my Islam are between me and Allah, not your business and only Allah sees whats in my heart so dont JUDGE me as you cant see what He does.
quote:I dont know UT on this thread he seemed to defend the truth so I defended the truth also,
search some more of HER posts about Islam
quote:(p.s I still I have a hell of a lot of respect and fondness in my heart for you! but not for your personal version of Islam I hate your disbelief not you)
hhmmm If you are who I think you are, then I hate how you changed and got sucked in and controlled by a man, a very violent and controlling man. If you are not who I think you are then I apologize.
quote:Believe what you like at the end of the day but always remember you will just like I will be accountable for our actions, keep good freinds!
I will believe what I like and what is logical to me and what Allah GUIDES me to. I ask for that EVERY day.
quote: the Prophet sallahu alyahi salam said the good company (good freind)is like when one visits and departs a perfume shop he will come away smelling nice, the bad company (bad freind) is like the one who went to visit the blacksmiths he will come away blackened and dirty, do not let that be you. Stay away from perversed people.
then i should be on the next plane back to UK then as this godforsaked shithole is full of perverse MUSLIMS!
quote:The Noble Qur'an - Al-Ahzab 33:59
O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils)* all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
the parts I made bold are ADDED and this is M. Muhsin Khan translation.
quote:*the arabic word here is Jalabeeb (plural of Jalbaab), which is the loose outer garment that covers all a woman's body. It says here to use the Jalabeeb to cover all, and scholars say this means to use it to cover her head (agree upon by all scholars) and her face (agreed by many scholars, not all) and one or both eyes, in order for it to be known that she is a free woman and so not to be exposed to any harm.
it does NOT say cover the hair it says cover the bosom.
quote:Your actions are by obeying, so obey. not just saying Im a good person so was mother theresa that wouldnt of got her any where.
Peace out!
I obey the Quran, I obey the MESSAGE that is IN Quran.
Your place is NOT to judge, so dont.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils)* all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
the parts I made bold are ADDED and this is M. Muhsin Khan translation.
And your point is Posts: 406 | Registered: Mar 2008
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O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils)* all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
the parts I made bold are ADDED and this is M. Muhsin Khan translation.
And your point is
The point is that of these 16 translations only Khan decides to make the hair and the rest of a woman an issue when it is CLEAR what the verse is really about, which is not covering everything but one eye to see with! Khan has ADDED to the words of God, just like Quran warns about and it changes the Quran just like adding the hadith of Moses changed the Torah, which again you were warned about in Quran.
Literal: You, you the prophet, say to your wives and your daughters and the believers' women they (F) near (lengthen) on them from their shirts/gowns/wide dresses, that (is) nearer that (E) they (F) be known (better than being identified), so they (F) do not be harmed mildly/harmed, and God was/is forgiving, merciful.
Yusuf Ali: O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Pickthal: O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
Arberry: O Prophet, say to thy wives and daughters and the believing women, that they draw their veils close to them; so it is likelier they will be known, and not hurt. God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.
Shakir: O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Sarwar: Prophet, tell your wives, daughters, and the wives of the believers to cover their bosoms and breasts. This will make them distinguishable from others and protect them from being annoyed. God is All-forgiving and All-merciful.
H/K/Saheeh: O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.
Malik: O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, daughters and the believing women that they should draw their outer garments over their persons. That is more proper, so that they may be recognized and not bothered. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.[59]
Maulana Ali: O Prophet, tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of believers to let down upon them their over-garments. This is more proper, so that they may be known, and not be given trouble. And Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
Free Minds: O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they should lengthen upon themselves their outer garments. That is better so that they would be recognized and not harmed. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
Qaribullah: O Prophet, tell your wives, your daughters and the believing women to draw their veils close to them, so it is likelier they will be known, and not hurt. Allah is the Forgiver, the Most Merciful.
George Sale: O prophet, speak unto thy wives, and thy daughters, and the wives of the true believers, that they cast their outer garments over them when they walk abroad; this will be more proper, that they may be known to be matrons of reputation, and may not be affronted by unseemly words or actions. God is gracious and merciful.
JM Rodwell: O Prophet! speak to thy wives and to thy daughters, and to the wives of the Faithful, that they let their veils fall low. Thus will they more easily be known, and they will not be affronted. God is Indulgent, Merciful!
Asad: O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters, as well as all [other] believing women, that they should draw over themselves some of their outer garments [when in public]: this will be more conducive to their being recognized [as decent women] and not annoyed. [Cf. the first two sentences of 24:31 and the corresponding notes.] But [withal,] God is indeed much- forgiving, a dispenser of grace! [The specific, time-bound formulation of the above verse (evident in the reference to the wives and daughters of the Prophet), as well as the deliberate vagueness of the recommendation that women "should draw upon themselves some of their outer garments min jalabibihinna)" when in public, makes it clear that this verse was not meant to be an injunction (hukm) in the general, timeless sense of this term but, rather, a moral guideline to be observed against the ever-changing background of time and social environment. This finding is reinforced by the concluding reference to God's forgiveness and grace.]
Khalifa: O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall lengthen their garments. Thus, they will be recognized (as righteous women) and avoid being insulted. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
Hilali/Khan: O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e.screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever OftForgiving, Most Merciful.
QXP Shabbir Ahemd: O Prophet! Tell your wives, your daughters, and women of the believers that they should draw their outer garments over their person (when in public (24:31)). This is easy and proper, so that they may be recognized and not bothered. Allah is Absolver of imperfections, Merciful.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! Turn ye all together towards Allah that ye may attain Bliss. (31)
There seems to be a veil in the above 24:31, but as for the galabib in 33:59
Yusuf Ali: O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
I think this only applies to the times when the ladies were being molested, which is the case nowadays it seems. Told ya the Qur'an is for all times. Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: There seems to be a veil in the above 24:31
Read the original verse, Dzosser. It uses the word "khumoor", not "veils". The word veil (hijab) is never used in reference to clothing in the Qur'an.
quote: I think this only applies to the times when the ladies were being molested, which is the case nowadays it seems.
You are right, the verse says that women should be recognized as believing women, so that they don't get harassed. But that is in reference to a particular historical situation where being recognized as a believer actually prevented harassment. I don't see that working nowadays ... Muslim women get harassed in Egypt (and other countries) all the time, despite the fact that they are recognizable as Muslims.
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I don't think their interpretation of the verse is twisted. When I read the verse I understand the exact same thing. As you can see the misogynic hadiths that you reject are not contrary to the spirit of the Quran.
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