R u kiddin me? Where do you live? Arabs are getting rich off the corner stores that used to be in the hands of Blx. A fact. East Asians getting rich off fake hair etc. [Nah ain't sayin nuthin bout ma Hot Roti's]
R u really suggesting letting NAPs (Non African People)[*] stay in control of internal economy?
To take back the corner store and deli and other businesses Newbie Americans now run in our nabes would require training staff to respect Blacks as much as they do other peoples. I dunno but a bigger issue may be overcoming the 'they ice colder' effect.
If you don't like small business fine but it's a lie to say big money's not in them. Money big enough to fund weapons purchase back on the Peninsula. Money big enough to send Korean etc sons and daughters to college. A fact. [I don't think its fair to call a bodega a mom&pop store. Whoever's successfully running a store knows and operates sound business principles undeserving of jibes implying lack of sophistication.]
=-=
Keita Keita Keita reminds me of the days when blx were only allowed one option. The man was great a decade ago but even then never formed teams to investigate anything. Anyway I'm sure he's active in his actual career. We'd be way behind the curve if not for Shomarka Omar Yahya Keita.
What saddens me and hints ES is less tho still under professional watching eyes is the lack of blk and ES references ESers use. Take Keita's cranial reports (not that I stake much stock in racialized skulls). When's the last time Keita's cranial work was cited among other references going as far back as the 1950s? So does ES believe in Keita or just like throwing the only Black name they know around for glow creds?
=-=
One freakin museum in DC, so what? And do they control it or did they just drop cash into yte hands to handle the brass tacks? Celebs are not an answer unless a group of them brand corner stores delis etc (think brand -- 7/11) and train blx how to be good to blk customers. This is the level you start at.
Coming from a family that had hotels restaurants rental residential housing and beach houses I know what monies are there.
What happened was integration enabled blk self-hatred to wreck internal economy. My father bought and rehabbed ghetto houses rented them out and after so many years of tenancy passed the deed onto the renter. That's right he made home ownership a reality for blx who could never ever get a mortgage. No fanfare. No 'revolution' or even talk of blackness. No lot of this n that. Just one man doing good and right in two communities, one urban the other sub-rural.Flippin properties does nothing for the community and certainly doesn't balance wealth any way at all.
Home ownership is the foundation of generational wealth.
About Hustle. You ask who's there to help the dude. Proof celebs aren't an answer. According to your question celebs ain't into doin that kinda stuff. Rely on the unreliable? I'll pass.
=-=
For sure some D R Lab personnel may've paid some attention once to ES. Right now ES lacks dialog on genomics it had. People now make stuff up about genomic principles that when you write to a professional they answer What u talkin bout with that whack.
Conflicting monologues is no substitute for reasoned dialog where all parties contribute their jigsaw to the puzzle and consensus outside of like minded individuals can be reached.
R u kiddin me? Where do you live? Arabs are getting rich off the corner stores that used to be in the hands of Blx. A fact. East Asians getting rich off fake hair etc. [Nah ain't sayin nuthin bout ma Hot Roti's]
R u really suggesting letting NAPs (Non African People) stay in control of internal economy?
I sympathize with what you say- there has been some losses in the old areas. But NAPs were always in substantial control of the internal economy. Not 100% in all venues, but overall, in substantial control. Even in the gold age of black business, whites owned most of the land on which the black biz operated and blacks paid them rent to stay in bidniss. And black retailers still dependent on white wholesalers. In addition black biz was pushed to the worse locations where they could not effectively compete with whites, and if those locations changed to become profitable, whites were free to muscle in on those but blacks were forbidden from doing likewise in white areas. 100%, in all places at all times? No, there was some slack here and there, but this has been the basic pattern.
Here is what one study of Black Tulsa and its “Black Wal Street” has to say:
“While "Deep Greenwood" was assuredly one of the finest black commercial districts in the entire Southwest, it was scarcely free from white influence and control. Whites owned a large portion of the land in the district. Furthermore, black Tulsa's service-oriented businesses were geared toward catering a wage-earning population. Few of them employed more than a handful of people. Economically, black Tulsa was dependent upon the wages paid to black workers by white employers. Despite its visible solidity of brick, Greenwood rested upon an uncertain economic foundation reflecting ominous social and racial realities.22" --Scott Ellsworth, 1992. Death in a Promised Land: The Tulsa Race Riot of 1921. pp 15-16 ---------------------------------- ------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------
and outside the wall streets:
Moreover, “the Black Wall Street” hardly suggests the poverty, squalor, and neglect that were common outside Greenwood’s vibrant business district and a block or two of prime housing. While it was slow to pave streets, lay sewage lines, and provide other basic services in white neighborhoods, TUlsa all but ignored the black district. By 1920, only six blocks in Greenwood were paved; the rest were uneven dirt roads with ditches that drained the rainfall. Sewage connections were rare; bathrooms and indoor toilets were luxuries few could afford. The Colored Public Health Nurse of Tulsa reported in that year that a single outdoor toilet was used by one eleven-room house and seven adjoining houses. While the elite streets had brick homes and bungalows, many people lived in weather-beaten shacks with planks, sheds, two-room cottages, the remains of old barns, and even tents. Wood from packing crates was often used to build homes. Mangy cows roamed around the outhouses, chickens ran across scattered sand, and refuse fires burned in comer lots..
According to an employment survey of Greenwood in 1930, domestic service accounted for 38.7 percent of all black male employees and 93.2 percent of all black female employees — an astonishing 62.3 percent of all black workers. What’s more, the domestic and personal service workers generated income for one of Greenwood’s biggest industries — gambling. The betting was similar to the numbers game but known as the “policy wheel.” It involved three drawings a day, and the operators of the wheel hired the porters, janitors, and domestic servants to sell “chances” to their white patrons. For a five-cent chance, a winner could pocket nine dollars. The “salesmen” would earn two or three dollars a day, and the operators would clear twenty to thirty dollars.
These “white” dollars were critical in helping support many black merchants; while Greenwood may have been socially and physically segregated, it was closely bound economically to white Tulsa..."
--James S. Hirsch. 2014. Riot and Remembrance: The Tulsa Race War and Its Legacy. pp 40-44
---------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ ------------------------------ To take back the corner store and deli and other businesses Newbie Americans now run in our nabes would require training staff to respect Blacks as much as they do other peoples. I dunno but a bigger issue may be overcoming the 'they ice colder' effect.
Would be nice, but most of these A-rab/Asian Newbie Americans don’t really care about respect beyond counter service. They are business people. They have a product or service that blacks can buy or not buy- that’s their bottom line. They don’t give a damn really about black issues fundamentally, though some pay politic lip service.
If you don't like small business fine but it's a lie to say big money's not in them. Money big enough to fund weapons purchase back on the Peninsula. Money big enough to send Korean etc sons and daughters to college. A fact. [I don't think its fair to call a bodega a mom&pop store. Whoever's successfully running a store knows and operates sound business principles undeserving of jibes implying lack of sophistication.]
Asians/A-rabs getting rich off corner stores? Open question. Many Asian/ Arabs are recent immigrants with education and some capital. They can’t get a quick foothold in the economy so they gravitate to business to survive, and of course have to put in long hours at low margins. There are not giant profits to be made in low-end black area stores. If there were you would see a lot of the bigger white chains there, but they avoid “disadvantaged” areas. Only the small-time operator squeezing the margins with long hours, extended credit etc etc can really make a living there.
As I say many of these recent immigrants have education and some capital. Korean immigrants for example come with substantial amounts of both. So they will do business, but as a matter of course they will send their kids off to college and will be much more ruthless about it than blacks. Hence the hard-nosed ”cram schools” used by Asians to push their kids to get ahead. Many will do bidniss AND a low end job at the same time or mix and match family members. Corner store money helps but it is only one of the things in the mix that is fundamentally responsible for their advances..
There is some indication that younger black entrepreneurs are not much interested in the traditional mom and pops, if recent work by Juliet Walker, who has studied and written books on black biz is considered. The younger cats don’t see much growth opportunity in 12 hours days behind barred windows and shatter-proof glass, with more crime, more shoplifting etc etc. in running these mom and pops. On top of that they face hard-nosed A-rab and Asian competition using low cost or no-cost family labor. Per Walker’s work, that “legacy” option is just not appealing anymore to young cats up and coming in Atlanta, NYC etc.
The blacks who might make a corner-store go of it are black immigrants- Haiti, Africa. It is no coincidence that Jamaicans were known as “JEW-Maicans” in olden Harlem times for their hard-nosed approach in these areas. How many job dem Ja boy work, in addition to their sideline bidnisses as the old saying went? =-=
Keita Keita Keita reminds me of the days when blx were only allowed one option. The man was great a decade ago but even then never formed teams to investigate anything. Anyway I'm sure he's active in his actual career. We'd be way behind the curve if not for Shomarka Omar Yahya Keita.
Yes indeed. The man’s work has been a keystone in building our knowledge.
What saddens me and hints ES is less tho still under professional watching eyes is the lack of blk and ES references ESers use. Take Keita's cranial reports (not that I stake much stock in racialized skulls). When's the last time Keita's cranial work was cited among other references going as far back as the 1950s? So does ES believe in Keita or just like throwing the only Black name they know around for glow creds?
Most of the old-line posters on ES embrace Keita and quote him if appropriate. But it takes savvy folk who put in some work to understand the material. Too often unfortunately, some people want quick& easy “sound bite” and “Tweets” and Facebook “likes” formats in the acquisition of knowledge. On one Black-Egyp Facebook group the mods have some of the knowledge, but unless they post hard detail, few others are. The group is overrun with “mystic” references to pyramidal star chambers or the ramblings of ”Bra Po-lite” or bubble-gum/poppish meme graphics. Then there are those “enthusiasts” who appear during Black History Month to harangue all who listen about African Egypt but have not progressed their knowledge base beyond Count Volney or Herodotus or Diop 1962. We can do a lot better than this..
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One freakin museum in DC, so what? And do they control it or did they just drop cash into yte hands to handle the brass tacks? Celebs are not an answer unless a group of them brand corner stores delis etc (think brand -- 7/11) and train blx how to be good to blk customers. This is the level you start at.
Would be nice, but its not worth their while for them to get into mom and pops. A big chain like 7-11s are deep pocketed big dogs, a totally different proposition that will compete against the local initiative. Big chains are one of the things that hurt local small-time operators- like the Woolworths in the 1950s/1960s, and the later Walmarts and Targets.
What happened was integration enabled blk self-hatred to wreck internal economy.
Not really. Even under segregation for well nigh a century black promoters and businessmen urged black consumers to ”buy black.” Most of these campaigns failed for a variety of reasons. ”Colder ice” self-hatred is only one sliver of the picture. White or Asian competition, the rise of big chains or cheap product discount houses, “urban renewal” programs that even prior to the civil rights victories of the late 1960s destroyed numerous black neighborhood etc etcc. Recommend you get a good book on the history of black business development to see what actually went wrong.
My father bought and rehabbed ghetto houses rented them out and after so many years of tenancy passed the deed onto the renter. That's right he made home ownership a reality for blx who could never ever get a mortgage. No fanfare. No 'revolution' or even talk of blackness. No lot of this n that. Just one man doing good and right in two communities, one urban the other sub-rural.Flippin properties does nothing for the community and certainly doesn't balance wealth any way at all.
Indeed and segregation was a real downer on such things. The coming of integration opened up new opportunities for black contractors and home-owners as whites withdrew from many areas. Integration hurt black biz in SOME ways, BUT as credible histories show, it also opened up NEW opportunities as well. Today black business as a whole is stronger and wealthier than the old mom and pops of the segregation era. Aside from the usual business firms, the commodification of black culture as in hip hop industry for example has spawned a large number of new black entrepreneurs, and pumped multi-millions in revenue into black biz coffers. The gaining of government contracts- from military to construction has likewise pumped revenue into black hands undreamed of under segregation. I recommend people see such excellent studies as scholar Juliet Walker’s ”War, women, song- The tectonics of black business and entrepreneurship, 1939–2001” https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1007/s12114-004-1005-3?journalCode=rbpa
Re “flippin” props, I think it can have a positive side. In many black areas there are thousands of properties begging for rehab. If black entrepreneurs can start to get a grip on these, pooling labor and resources to rehab, some wealth building or revenue building can shine. But too often, its others who are seizing those Low hanging good properties and gentrifying entire blocks, and reaping big profits in key areas. We need more people doing what your father did. In my area I see Asian mofos going into the black areas, buying cheap, doing the fix up then flipping- which can help some black buyers in that area, particularly where whites and others don;t want to live. In addition to the flip, owning and renting- an inter-generational revenue stream. Some blacks are involved but why aren’t there more?
Home ownership is the foundation of generational wealth.
Sure, and the opening up of properties long denied blacks under segregation has meant that black folk can finally begin to get a piece of that action.
About Hustle. You ask who's there to help the dude. Proof celebs aren't an answer. According to your question celebs ain't into doin that kinda stuff.
Didn’t say celebs were the answer, and I said celebs were not much interested in small mom and pop operations. They can likely do their best work in things like what Nipsey was doing. I think they can do more- agree can’t rely on them. But may be possible to combine their deep-pockets mode, with the small operator mode. Someone who redevelops a city block for example or even one building, can make space and storefronts or offices and business centers with all the support services for black entrepreneurs. Your idea of the small-time operations can work within a larger venture cap community biz development format.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
OK so according to you unlike every other people pre-integration Blx were supposed to be somehow above normal supply and distribution networks? What a fantasy.
You'd rather see every race in the world control neighborhood stores than Blx controlling them mbecause the goods are ordered from non-Blx anyway ?
Sure, on some other planet.
Thank heavens you weren't around to advise my elder relatives or they would have accomplished except being hat-in-hands submissive to you ytes.
Really? Until you spend time in Blk communities and speak to the few remaining Boomer entrepreneurs all you can do is talk book knowledge from a yte perspective and continue bad advising Blx about their own communities and their finances to keep getting Jewed out a penny on each item by Arabs running businesses that once were in Blk hands.
When you and your family suffer business losses attributable directly to integration policies then you can talk from lived Blk experience rather than yte empirical evidence.
Others here with similar background have told you about this but why listen to us blk when that doesn't serve the interest of NAPs to keep getting rich off the internal Blk economy.
The Kushite Kingdom of Kerma in the Post Middle Kingdom Era with Dr. Faraji
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2707 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: OK so according to you unlike every other people pre-integration Blx were supposed to be somehow above normal supply and distribution networks? What a fantasy.
You'd rather see every race in the world control neighborhood stores than Blx controlling them mbecause the goods are ordered from non-Blx anyway ?
Sure, on some other planet.
Thank heavens you weren't around to advise my elder relatives or they would have accomplished except being hat-in-hands submissive to you ytes.
Really? Until you spend time in Blk communities and speak to the few remaining Boomer entrepreneurs all you can do is talk book knowledge from a yte perspective and continue bad advising Blx about their own communities and their finances to keep getting Jewed out a penny on each item by Arabs running businesses that once were in Blk hands.
When you and your family suffer business losses attributable directly to integration policies then you can talk from lived Blk experience rather than yte empirical evidence.
Others here with similar background have told you about this but why listen to us blk when that doesn't serve the interest of NAPs to keep getting rich off the internal Blk economy.
You seem not to understand how urban economies work. Black economies were always tied into and dependent on white economies. There was no isolated internal economy independent of everything else. Shaky old shibboleths bout how “self-hate” supposedly “wrecked” the ”internal economy” are dubious, and easily debunked by any credible history of black business in America.
You'd rather see every race in the world control neighborhood stores than Blx controlling them mbecause the goods are ordered from non-Blx anyway
No, I don’t “prefer to see” “every other race” control neighborhood stores. I simply noted the blunt reality of economies in black areas historically, which every credible scholar also notes. Outsiders have usually dominated or substantially controlled those areas- from land ownership, to rentals, to supply. That’s it. The example of white wholesalers illustrates that even in that element, the blacks were still dependent on whites. And in fact, some of the best “buy black” campaigns such as Albon Hosley’s “Colored Merchants Association” specifically tried to break the dominance of white wholesalers. Recommend you actually examine credible data and history on the issue. This info is easily available online. https://www.encyclopedia.com/african-american-focus/news-wires-white-papers-and-books/holsey-albon-l
Thank heavens you weren't around to advise my elder relatives or they would have accomplished except being hat-in-hands submissive to you ytes.
Your elder relatives had to work within the white dominated economy same as most other black people, and depending on where they did their rehab work, did so at the sufferance of white people, in the “cullud” areas, until fairly recently in US history. Even in the more liberal north, black contractors were often frozen out of many projects and had to confine themselves to “approved” zones. Exceptions? Sure, but that was the general pattern. \
Really? Until you spend time in Blk communities and speak to the few remaining Boomer entrepreneurs all you can do is talk book knowledge from a yte perspective and continue bad advising Blx about their own communities and their finances to keep getting Jewed out a penny on each item by Arabs running businesses that once were in Blk hands.
Your personal knowledge of the issue is limited, and indeed often inaccurate as to what has really gone on with black business. When you make such dubious statements like “self-hate wrecked the internal economy” it reveals you are clueless about these actual historical trends. And I have lived in black communities and was born in a black community to black parents, and had black relatives who were businessmen in black communities. So I speak from personal experience.
When you and your family suffer business losses attributable directly to integration policies then you can talk from lived Blk experience rather than yte empirical evidence.
Actually my family knows about biz losses. My grandfather ran a shoemaking/repair shop on into the 1950s. What put him out of business primarily was not such dubious shibboleths like “self-hate” - but something much less dramatic: the flood of cheap footwear imports from overseas, and their wide distribution in chain stores and elsewhere.
You then talk about “the few remaining black boomer entrepreneurs”. In what sense are there are “few” remaining? Here again, you proffer these personal opinions but have little to base them on.
Others here with similar background have told you about this but why listen to us blk when that doesn't serve the interest of NAPs to keep getting rich off the internal Blk economy
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Don't you understand all economies tie in. There are no independent racial economies. Don't act like I propped up so flimsy a strawman. By definition an internal economy isn't independent. It's surrounded by and a subset of another economy. Got nothing to do with Blk share of market in Blk spaces.
I remember what I lived and saw as others on ES/ESR also tried to tell you about this before.
I don't care how many empirical studies you can show. My families' hotel, beach house, and restaurant businesses fell off sharply then entirely after integration era. Nonetheless not enough biz to stay open. Those kind of businesses require numbers of employees. The beach houses were the last to go. The dentist, gynecologist, accountant, and contractor of course saw no declines.
Not my family but the popular state hi-way roadside was burnt down and never rebuilt. Its owner trusted no banks nor insurance companies. Accident or jealous arsony over revenue little effected by integration? Nobody but you claims it was 100% dey ice colder mentality alone though it certainly does factor into the equation. Nothing is simple.
Tailors, cobblers, and dry cleaners tended to retain their businesses. Some well into the 1980s. Also Black Americans of black majority country immigrant origins fared better.
I feel no need to prove my blackness but since you wanna crow about how blk you are
My opinions are from living a blk life in Blk America among city Foundational Black Americans in FBA neighborhoods, FBA founded small towns and FBA former tied to the land class literally living other side the agricultural railroad tracks sub-rural areas.
Real life.
You cannot empirically negate my lived experience. You don't validate my life and existence and I don't care if you don't like hearing about it and want others to think ADOS FBA and those married in are stupid and don't know their own immediate histories or what they lived through and saw with their own eyes as if this is a unique experience not reported by many.
Internalized racism remains perhaps the number one cause of our internal dysfunctional sociology.
And with that I'm done and stand by what I said which neither asks or needs you to agree or approve.
If you knew or lived around any the remaining ie still alive Boomer former entrepreneurs you could learn reality sitting and listening. But the minute they'd tell you something outside mainstream literature you'd dismiss it and so miss it.
The statements you make prove you are clueless about active day to day lived black experiences. But too bad about you family shoes. For some reason Arab and Mizrahhi Jewish cobblers run fine business in Blk areas where Caribbe Black Americans once dominated.
Considering that why you wanna keep Arabs in business and poopoo on Blx even thinking of getting back ownership of bodegas first then etc businesse in Foundational Black American nabes?
quote: "We were able to discover over 3 million novel variants within these genomes. This was after comparison with more than 1000 African genomes in public repositories, suggesting that the potential for discovering novel genetic variants by sequencing African populations is still far from saturation."
First evidence of East Africa to Nigeria migration 50+ generations ago
In addition to contributing to the vast amount of novel variation observed in African populations, the inclusion of previously unstudied population groups in the study enabled scientists to add puzzle pieces to the jigsaw of established historical interactions and migration events on the continent.
"Inclusion of novel African genomes in our study strongly supported Zambia as an intermediate site in the Bantu-migration route to the South and East of the continent," said Mr Shaun Aron, lead analyst on the population genetics component of the study and a lecturer in the SBIMB.
Evidence supporting movement from East Africa to central Nigeria between 1500 and 2000 years ago was revealed through the identification of a substantial amount of East African ancestry, particularly Nilo-Saharan from Chad, in a central Nigerian ethnolinguistic group, the Berom.
"This highlights the complex historical movement of people on the continent and diversity of even proximally close African groups," says Aron
quote: The genomes of the 50 groups, the most ever analyzed in such detail in a single study, each had unique genetic variants, underlining why the Human Genome Project does such a poor job of representing Africa. Although some 70% of the sequence in the “reference genome” the project produced came from an African-American man living in Buffalo, N.Y., a single individual of African ancestry can no more encompass the diversity of African DNA than one page of Shakespeare can show the diversity of Western literature.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
quote: "We were able to discover over 3 million novel variants within these genomes. This was after comparison with more than 1000 African genomes in public repositories, suggesting that the potential for discovering novel genetic variants by sequencing African populations is still far from saturation."
First evidence of East Africa to Nigeria migration 50+ generations ago
In addition to contributing to the vast amount of novel variation observed in African populations, the inclusion of previously unstudied population groups in the study enabled scientists to add puzzle pieces to the jigsaw of established historical interactions and migration events on the continent.
"This highlights the complex historical movement of people on the continent and diversity of even proximally close African groups," says Aron
Scientific African outflanked by Nature.
The claim is "It is an important step in redressing existing biases in available data for research, which hamper the study of African health problems and narrows global research," says Zané Lombard, a senior author of the study ...
but considering use of KS and demic Bantu I wonder about interpretation bias.
Don't know how much is from an independent African point of view. Though not attributions as to who did what, here're the leading 'author' names, some we're familiar with
Ananyo Choudhury, Shaun Aron, Laura Botigué, Dhriti Sengupta, Gerrit Botha, Taoufik Bensellak, Gordon Wells, Judit Kumuthini, Daniel Shriner
none are African. One corresponding author is African, Adebowale A. Adeyemo. Anyway here's the ADMIXTURE
and the redux
Looks like repetition of the DRL pure CEU though we've posted ADMIXTURE showing CUE with various African ancestries together surpassing the 3% level of significance. Nonetheless, plenty new viable data for all further studies.
OK enough. Genomics analysis belongs in some other thread.
These scholars seem uninterested in the things discussed here or the yte sites frequented by ES members who have no time to patiently break down molecular biology principles and reports related to geographic populations.
Hopefully Scientific African isn't being limited out
of investigating the most burning African issue, 'origin' and spread of Africa's people from 120,000 years ago to 1500 years ago.
Maybe in a hundred years African scientist will invent pgms like ADMIXTURE and populate databases of African genetic samples all not under the wing of 'liberal white Africanists'/Genomists conglomerates like David Reich
quote: "We were able to discover over 3 million novel variants within these genomes. This was after comparison with more than 1000 African genomes in public repositories, suggesting that the potential for discovering novel genetic variants by sequencing African populations is still far from saturation."
First evidence of East Africa to Nigeria migration 50+ generations ago
In addition to contributing to the vast amount of novel variation observed in African populations, the inclusion of previously unstudied population groups in the study enabled scientists to add puzzle pieces to the jigsaw of established historical interactions and migration events on the continent.
"Inclusion of novel African genomes in our study strongly supported Zambia as an intermediate site in the Bantu-migration route to the South and East of the continent," said Mr Shaun Aron, lead analyst on the population genetics component of the study and a lecturer in the SBIMB.
Evidence supporting movement from East Africa to central Nigeria between 1500 and 2000 years ago was revealed through the identification of a substantial amount of East African ancestry, particularly Nilo-Saharan from Chad, in a central Nigerian ethnolinguistic group, the Berom.
"This highlights the complex historical movement of people on the continent and diversity of even proximally close African groups," says Aron
quote: The genomes of the 50 groups, the most ever analyzed in such detail in a single study, each had unique genetic variants, underlining why the Human Genome Project does such a poor job of representing Africa. Although some 70% of the sequence in the “reference genome” the project produced came from an African-American man living in Buffalo, N.Y., a single individual of African ancestry can no more encompass the diversity of African DNA than one page of Shakespeare can show the diversity of Western literature.
Hmmm, thanks for this post.
Oh, and I recall this here:
quote:“Eastern and Saharan Africans shared the most alleles absent from other African populations examined”
(Sarah A Tishkoff et al., The Genetic Structure and History of Africans and African Americans)
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote: Y-DNA E-M2 is essentially absent from Sudan = swenet
and what about the MTDNA's in the Sudan? In addition, do you mean that E-M2 is currently absent from the Sudan? if so does that mean it was NEVER there? What could the possible explanations be for it NOT being there now? I can think of many possible scenarios...
We're not supposed to assert something, and then look for the evidence to back it up. And when it's not there think of ways to explain its absence. The evidence is not there. Not only is it not there, but Saudis and other random populations in Asia have more E-M2 than Sudanese.
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: @Swenet
quote: ignoring the fact that not a single Egyptian mummy looks like a Bantu. = swenet
Really?
such skulls are called dolichocephalic and are typical of Australian aborigines and native southern Africans. An index of 75 to 80 means that the skull is nearly oval; such skulls are called mesaticephalic and are typical of Europeans and the Chinese https://www.britannica.com/science/dolichocephaly THE G.O.A.T from Kenya Eliud Kipchoge
clearly dolichocephalic ^^^^^^
Tut's headshape is not dolichocephalic. KV55's head shape is also not dolichocephalic. How do I know? I used to think that for years, but over the years (beginning with Hawass 2010 which listed his head shape measurements) we've learned more. Ironically, it's Yuya's head shape that is dolichocephalic.
Also, when you plug Tut's head shape measurements into FORDISC, the results come back European. I'm not saying Tut was a European, but I'm saying Bantu samples were available. He did not cluster with the Bantu samples.
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
This dude looks Beja.. but you ascribed him to Fayum/Mermide.. how do you know this...?
The Merimde/Fayum populations are not locally restricted populations. They are offshoots of a larger regional metapopulation (skeletal remains found from Maghreb to Palestine, and some other places according to Briggs) from which the Beja also drew ancestry.
source for the beja part?
Posts: 161 | From: England | Registered: May 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Don't backtrack now saying "Bantu is not a phenotype".
We all know that Bantu has a distinct phenotype, and it's the most common phenotype in all of Africa. This phenotype has been coined "Negroid". This same Negroid phenotype was found to comprise the largest segment of the ancient Khametic population per UNESCO.
This Negroid morphology is the oldest type found in Khemet. From Nazlet Khater and throughout the early Dynasties.
quote: Let's see the skeletal remains of these Bantu "ruling elites".
"In summary, the Abydos First Dynasty royal tomb contents reveal a notable craniometric heterogeneity. Southerners predominate. (Kieta, S. (1992) Further Studies of Crania From Ancient Northern Africa: An Analysis of Crania From First Dynasty Egyptian Tombs, Using Multiple Discriminant Functions. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 87:245-254)"
Who are the "Southerners"? Are the Bantoid or Nilotic? They are one or the other.
quote: Everything about your model is vague. No dates.
The date of the main line of diffusion (there were lesser migrations before and after this period) is the 6th century BC;
quote:no archaeological correspondences.
That's a lie
quote:No haplogroup.
What tf are you talking about?
On the flipside there is no evidence of this haplogroup in West Africa (outside of the Western Sahara region) until after 2,000 BC.
Ancient West African foragers in the context of African population history Mark Lipson, Isabelle Ribot, […]David Reich
Nature (2020)
Our knowledge of ancient human population structure in sub-Saharan Africa, particularly prior to the advent of food production, remains limited. Here we report genome-wide DNA data from four children—two of whom were buried approximately 8,000 years ago and two 3,000 years ago—from Shum Laka (Cameroon), one of the earliest known archaeological sites ....However, the genome-wide ancestry profiles of all four individuals are most similar to those of present-day hunter-gatherers from western Central Africa, which implies that populations in western Cameroon today—as well as speakers of Bantu languages from across the continent—are not descended substantially from the population represented by these four people.
Bu bu but genetics
So genetics was not necessary for an accurate assessment of this example of ancient African population history with evidence available over 50 years ago.
So genetics was not necessary for an accurate assessment of this example of ancient African population history with evidence available over 50 years ago.
when did the peopling of Africa from the Nile valley occur?
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: 4,500 year old Mota Man remains in Ethiopia were identified as E1b1
Haplogroup E-M329 or E1b1a2
The majority of the cases observed have been found in East Africa. It has been found in ancient DNA isolated from a 4,500 year old Ethiopian fossil called Mota.This haplogroup is frequent in Southwestern Ethiopia, especially among Omotic-speaking populations.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: 4,500 year old Mota Man remains in Ethiopia were identified as E1b1
Haplogroup E-M329 or E1b1a2
The majority of the cases observed have been found in East Africa. It has been found in ancient DNA isolated from a 4,500 year old Ethiopian fossil called Mota.This haplogroup is frequent in Southwestern Ethiopia, especially among Omotic-speaking populations.
Ancient Ethiopian genome reveals extensive Eurasian admixture throughout the African continent M. Gallego Llorente 2015
(scroll down to download the supplement)
Y chromosome haplogroups We used a maximum likelihood based approach to determine the Y chromosome haplogroup of Mota. We called genotypes along the Y chromosome with a minimum base threshold of 20 using GATK and employed YFitter (53) to predict the most likely haplogroup. Mota was assigned to haplogroup E1b1. We verified this haplogroup by looking for mutations in Mota that were described by the International Society of Genetic Genealogy (ISOGG) as defining the branches leading to haplogroup E1b1 (Table S4).
____________________________________
^ This is the famous Mota man article. They don't mention the haplogroup in the main text but it is in the supplement as E1b1 I can't find a scientific article which identifies Mota as specifically E1b1a or the further mutation E1b1a2 (M329) although maybe there is one
A lot of people got thrown off by the title of this article. They were not trying to say Mota was admixed with Eurasian ancestry. They were saying the exact opposite, that 4,500 Mota was an example of an "unadmixed African" and could be used for comparisons to admixed populations. Nevertheless the admixture (according to them) is not very high "4 to 7% of the genome of most African populations" (later found to be too broad)
quote: They said this of populations later that Mota "We estimated a substantially higher Eurasian backflow admixture than previously detected (3), with an additional 4 to 7% of the genome of most African populations tracing back to a Eurasian source." ...
"Moreover, we detected a much broader geographical impact of the backflow, going all the way to West and Southern Africa (Fig. 2B). Even though the West Eurasian component in these regions is smaller than in Eastern Africa, it is still sizable, with Yoruba and Mbuti, who are often used as African reference populations (15, 16), showing 7% and 6%, respectively, of their genomes to be of Eurasian origin (table S5)."...
"We also investigated the Mota genome for a number of phenotypes of interest (6). As expected, Mota lacked any of the derived alleles found in Eurasian populations for eye and skin color, suggesting that he had brown eyes and dark skin. Mota lacked any of the currently known alleles that confer lactose tolerance, which may have implications concerning when pastoralism appeared in southwestern Ethiopia."
My view is they make too many assumptions based on one individual. Later the article's was found to be flawed
quote: some of the implications of this theory were surprising. For one thing, this backflow seemed to have raged like a flood, spreading all the way across the continent in relatively little time.
Nevertheless, regardless of these mis-conclusions they identified E1b1 and mtDNA L3 in this 4,500 year old Ethiopian remains at Mota
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So genetics was not necessary for an accurate assessment of this example of ancient African population history with evidence available over 50 years ago.
when did the peopling of Africa from the Nile valley occur?
posted
This whole issue of Egyptian cultural diffusion to the rest of Africa has been discussed many times before. I think it is nothing more than an attempt by some Africanists to equate Africa to Europe, with the latter having a Greco-Roman heritage that was diffused to the rest of that subcontinent. There are two problems with this. First, Europe is a small subcontinent so any cultural diffusion is relatively easier. Second, the cultural diffusion that happened in Europe is the result of conquest via the Roman Empire! Africa is a much larger continent for diffusion to happen and during Dynastic Egypt, Egypt was pretty much insulated by the Sahara desert and Egypt's imperial conquests only extended to Nubia. Any diffusion or influence could only occur via trade as there were trade networks that crossed parts of the Sahara via oases and especially through the Sahel, but there has been little evidence of any cultural adaptations based on such trade.
The only other alternative is shared cultural heritage via the Holocene Green Sahara.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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So genetics was not necessary for an accurate assessment of this example of ancient African population history with evidence available over 50 years ago.
when did the peopling of Africa from the Nile valley occur?
We've over this "Lioness". What a troll.
nobody's over anything. You're not answering this question because you're afraid that people might think you're silly, So stop the nonsense. You're supposed to be Big O not Little O
Also I just put some nicely presented DNA sources. That's another reason you trying to call me a troll > when the receipts come out. Plus it's impossible for someone to troll their own thread. Again stop the nonsense and let us know when this peopling of Africa from the Nile occurred according to you (if you have the cojones)
Posts: 42938 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] This whole issue of Egyptian cultural diffusion to the rest of Africa has been discussed many times before. I think it is nothing more than an attempt by some Africanists to equate Africa to Europe, with the latter having a Greco-Roman heritage that was diffused to the rest of that subcontinent.
You say that despite the evidence of cultural diffusion from ancient Kemet into inner Africa shown above.
quote: There are two problems with this. First, Europe is a small subcontinent so any cultural diffusion is relatively easier.
That's a strawman. It is YOUR conjecture that this is a reactionary argument to what whites do. I find your conjecture completely irrelevant, because it's a false assumption.
quote: Second, the cultural diffusion that happened in Europe is the result of conquest via the Roman Empire! Africa is a much larger continent for diffusion to happen and during Dynastic Egypt
This is silly! Kemet was destroyed through conquest, so what are you talking about? First the Assyrians then the Persians and Greco Roman period. The sources above make clear that the people of Kemet were not receptive to these Asiatic and Europeans. These hostile foreigners who made a mockery of Ausarians culture that the civilization was founded on caused the migrations from Kemet in various waves, with the Persian invasion being the most impactful to this migratory pattern.
Nubia was the initial area of refuge for many of these migrants from Kemet following these initial invasions. This large migration of people during the 6th century BC from Kemet coincides with rise of the Meroe period of Nubia. This highly Kemetic influenced culture was reflective of the migrants from Kemet into the region.
quote: Egypt was pretty much insulated by the Sahara desert and Egypt's imperial conquests only extended to Nubia.
That is false. Statues of Ausar and Thutmoses have been found in the Central to Southern Africa. UNESCO even reported on this, despite their BS conclusions that we all know about.
quote:Any diffusion or influence could only occur via trade as there were trade networks that crossed parts of the Sahara via oases and especially through the Sahel, but there has been little evidence of any cultural adaptations based on such trade.
Pardon...but who in the Hell are you to say that C.A. Diop's is incorrect WITH NO COUNTER EVIDENCE? Nothing more than Western white liberal conjecture and GASLIGHTING. Homie I will KICK ALL OF Y'ALL'S ASSES IN THIS DEBATE (AND HAVE BEFORE). How do I know? Because the truth is on my side. But y'all already know that.
To "lioness" You are a collection of non Black individuals sent here to gas light African Americans from claiming our ancient Kemetic legacy. You are a notorious time wasting troll, and nobody ever ever ever can respect what you post. That being said I will not take what you have to ask or say seriously. We've been over this time and time again, and enough is enough.
To "lioness" You are a collection of non Black individuals sent here to gas light African Americans from claiming our ancient Kemetic legacy. You are a notorious time wasting troll, and nobody ever ever ever can respect what you post. That being said I will not take what you have to ask or say seriously. We've been over this time and time again, and enough is enough.
What is claiming a legacy and what is it founded on?
Basic questions you should be able to answer
Can all Africans "claim" Kemetic legacy?
Clyde, don't try to help him out please. If I ask Clyde a question he has answers for everything. But you're always hiding. That's why we are not getting anywhere
Where is there a tribe that writes hieroglyphics or has any Egyptian inscriptions on local artifacts?
destroyed by a timeline
Posts: 42938 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Big O: You say that despite the evidence of cultural diffusion from ancient Kemet into inner Africa shown above.
All you've shown is evidence of cultural commonalities. That is NOT the same as cultural diffusion from one area of the continent to another. You have yet to provide proof that the other Africans actually recieved their motifs from Egypt.
quote:That's a strawman. It is YOUR conjecture that this is a reactionary argument to what whites do. I find your conjecture completely irrelevant, because it's a false assumption.
My statement on reactionary argument wasn't pertaining to specifically to you but to other Africanists who admit to such!
quote:This is silly! Kemet was destroyed through conquest, so what are you talking about? First the Assyrians then the Persians and Greco Roman period. The sources above make clear that the people of Kemet were not receptive to these Asiatic and Europeans. These hostile foreigners who made a mockery of Ausarians culture that the civilization was founded on caused the migrations from Kemet in various waves, with the Persian invasion being the most impactful to this migratory pattern.
Correction. Kemet's independent political rule was destroyed NOT its entire culture which survives up until today, especially in rural areas! Further my comment was describing modes of cultural diffusion. Conquest is just one mode which explains how Greco-Roman culture got diffused throughout Europe. Another is through migration either direct or multi-step. Another is through religious proselytism. You have not proven that whatever cultural affinities other Africans have with Egypt is the result of any of this other than a common paleo-African commonality.
quote:Nubia was the initial area of refuge for many of these migrants from Kemet following these initial invasions. This large migration of people during the 6th century BC from Kemet coincides with rise of the Meroe period of Nubia. This highly Kemetic influenced culture was reflective of the migrants from Kemet into the region.
Yes, and their descendants today are known as Sudanese Copts. What do they have to do with all the other peoples you have shown?
quote:That is false. Statues of Ausar and Thutmoses have been found in the Central to Southern Africa. UNESCO even reported on this, despite their BS conclusions that we all know about.
Did you read the rest of my post? I said they had direct contact with Nubia who in turn had contact to other Africans to their south. But where is the proof of cultural diffusion to as far as West Africa?
quote:Pardon...but who in the Hell are you to say that C.A. Diop's is incorrect WITH NO COUNTER EVIDENCE? Nothing more than Western white liberal conjecture and GASLIGHTING. Homie I will KICK ALL OF Y'ALL'S ASSES IN THIS DEBATE (AND HAVE BEFORE). How do I know? Because the truth is on my side. But y'all already know that.
Ah yes, the old Diop defense. You do realize Cheikh Anta Diop while right about some things was debunked on many other things as well. Archaeology and especially genetics has debunked his claims of Egyptian immigration to West Africa unless you have any updated info to the contrary that nobody else not even experts from Africa have.
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where are there any videos of African tribal leaders even claiming they are of dynastic Egyptian descent ? It's mainly AAs influenced by Diop
Posts: 42938 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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where are there any videos of African tribal leaders even claiming they are of dynastic Egyptian descent ? It's mainly AAs influenced by Diop
Big O...
Why are you throwing pearls to a troll?
Sometimes a person is not worth arguing with... you are going to do all the heavy lifting to educate people that could educate themselves with a lift of the finger..
Google exist! It's 2022
Anyone interested in African history would know specifics least of all egyptsearch regulars who have spent YEARS here
Maps maps maps... geography geography... is EVERYTHING.. and until anyone can get a lay of the land they will think migrations are improbable/impossible..
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2707 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Curses are acceptable to describe something somebody said > but not acceptable to call a person or group
And racial slurs are also not acceptable or using terms to describe people ethnically that the people themselves don't use
Digital Blackface is not acceptable and is a vile racist practice... and yet HERE WE ARE
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2707 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Big O: [qb] You say that despite the evidence of cultural diffusion from ancient Kemet into inner Africa shown above.
All you've shown is evidence of cultural commonalities. That is NOT the same as cultural diffusion from one area of the continent to another.
Cultural Diffusion is defined as;
"cultural diffusion has to do with how the many different parts of culture are adopted by other cultures."
Was Ausarian culture not the backbone of Kemetic civilization? Wasn't the worship of Ausar what set Kemet apart from Nubia? Is there is any evidence of Ausar being worshipped in civilizations much earlier than ancient Kemet? Not to my knowledge. If there was a civilization in the ancient Sahara from which all of this diffused from, then please detail this place, and the people who inhabited it. If not then we can safely say that the worship of Ausar is fundamentally a Nile Valley and specifically a Kemetic practice. The worship of Ausar was also an ETHNIC distinguishment according to Emile A. Meaning that this "religion" was centered around one particular ethnic group that Ausar was said to have belonged to. Narmer who resurrected the domination of the Anu/Bantu people was an ETHNIC representative.
Djeuti...What ethnic group still has the practice of signifying their divine authority with a bulltails?
The Niger-Congo speakers from East to West all use this distinctly Ausarian relic to signify authority. These groups are tied together through common genetic lineages albeit some variation, which implies that "ethnic" distinguishment of the worshipers of Ausar. What region of Africa was this practiced and was also a region where the Niger-Congo speakers congregated for this to be so widespread today?
quote: You have yet to provide proof that the other Africans actually recieved their motifs from Egypt.
That's asinine. So identical practices and traditions found in Kemet that are also seen in modern day Africans that certified certified certified scholars have ascertained is evidence of cultural diffusion does not matter because why Djhueti? Because the scholars asserting this are Black African? Do you not respect the work of scholars from Africa speaking against wyte Western bs?
quote:My statement on reactionary argument wasn't pertaining to specifically to you but to other Africanists who admit to such!
Regardless it is completely irrelevant to what I and others have argued. Ausar Imhotep does not reference European unity to justify his grouping of Bantu and Kemetic languages among others.
quote: Correction. Kemet's independent political rule was destroyed NOT its entire culture which survives up until today ,
Djhueti it did die in Egypt. The people in Egypt today for the most part of are foreigners to the civilization as Rutgers professor Ivan Van Sertima regularly asserted in his lectures. "They hadn't a damn thing to do with the building of those pyramids" his words. I believe him and his research over you. Regardless of their perceived genetic "Africaness" they are not the descendants of ancient Kemet, and everyone knows that. Why else Dogon do the people of Mali have so much integral knowledge of the ancient Kemetic religion whereas modern Egyptians are clueless about these aspects of ancient Kemet?
" The Dogon, an ancient people in Africa, are mainly populated in the modern nations of Mali and Burkino Faso in West Africa, the epicenter of the historical medieval Mali Empire. When western anthropologists first began to study Dogon culture they were baffled at the group's advanced knowledge of the universe. They were specifically astonished at their intricate understanding of the Sirius planetary system (Alpha Canis Majoris).
Historical commentators believe that the Dogon's cosmological lore goes back thousands of years to at least 3200 BC, during the pre-dynastic age of ancient Egypt, of the Kemet-Nubian family group of the Nile Valley region. Is it only a coincident that the Dogon's oral history includes an eastern migration story prior to their settling in the Bandiagara Plateau region, near the Southern edge of the Sahara desert between the 13th and 16th centuries?"
What ancient practices in modern Egypt today do you think could possibly rival the connection displayed with the Dogon carrying the knowledge of the divine Sirius mystery system?
quote: especially in rural areas!
Their connection to ancient Kemet would mirror a connection to more southerly African cultures, because the latter are who were the fundamental players in the maintenance and founding of ancient Kemet.
quote:Another is through migration either direct or multi-step. Another is through religious proselytism. You have not proven that whatever cultural affinities other Africans have with Egypt is the result of any of this other than a common paleo-African commonality.
Djhueti you are a paid gas lighters! So at this point you realize that you look like ass faced denying the clear cultural continuity in these various displays of this form of evidence that I have grown fund of. Now how in tf could it be "paleo-African" when these practices are directly tied to the worship of Ausar? Ausar worship is THE foundation of Kemetic civilization that began for all practical purposes around 3,100 BC. With Kemet being the only cultural apparatus that bounded distinct Africans to worship said culture, what evidence do you have of a "paleo African" version of Kemet and where in Africa did this meeting up occur? Show evidence of Ausar being worshiped in this region.
quote: Yes, and their descendants today are known as Sudanese Copts. What do they have to do with all the other peoples you have shown?
These professional gas lighters are trying so hard to make it appear that the African settlement patterns of today mirror that of antiquity against all available evidence. They really do not want smart Blacks to think this out for ourselves.
" "Oral traditions of the ruling Abrade (Aduana) Clan state that Akans originated from ancient Ghana. The Akan people migrated from the north through Egypt and settled in Nubia (Sudan). Around 500 AD (5th century), due to the pressure exerted on Nubia by the Axumite kingdom of Ethiopia, Nubia was scattered and the Akan people moved west and established small trading kingdoms. These kingdoms grew and around 750 AD the Ghana Empire was formed. The Empire lasted from 750 AD to 1200 AD and collapsed as a result of the introduction of Islam in Western Sudan, due to the zeal of the Muslims to impose their religion, their ancestors eventually left for Kong (i.e. present-day Ivory Coast). From Kong, they moved to Wam and then to Dormaa (both located in present-day Brong-Ahafo region). The movement from Kong was necessitated by the desire of the people to find suitable savannah conditions since they were not used to forest life. Around the 14th century, they moved from Dormaa South Eastwards to Twifo-Heman North West Cape Coast. This move was commercially motivated."
Here are more sources supporting what has been written about the Akan's Northeast African origin.
But Djhueti says that the modern ARAB ARAB ARABS (think about the taller fresh and fit clown) of Sudan today are truly relics of ancient Nile Valley civilization.
quote: But where is the proof of cultural diffusion to as far as West Africa?
Stop the foking gas lighting. This thread had ABUNDANT UNCONTESTED PROOF of these migratory patterns diffusing ancient Nile Valley culture into not only West Africa, but Southern, Central and East Africa as well.
quote:Archaeology and especially genetics has debunked his claims of Egyptian immigration to West Africa unless you have any updated info to the contrary that nobody else not even experts from Africa have.
Reich 2020, Hawass 2013, Keita 2018, Khairat et al 2020 all verify that Diop was correct. To contrary how many studies of the dozen or so specimens tested have found primary genetic affinity between ancient Khamites and modern Egyptians? Even Zaharan whom I have had to flatten in this debate does not make that dead argument, and yet you are. The archaeological evidence is abundant, and you simply refuse to acknowledge it because wyte didn't paste it in their books. This is why I tell Black people to be wary of non Blacks who appear to have an interest in this area. They all come insidious places, and the sad part is y'all are the "nice ones" out of your groups.
posted
^ Yatunde Lisa, all you've done is show cultural similarities but you have yet to provide definitive proof that they all stem from Egypt as a single source. Akan traditions of migrating from the 'east' won't cut it because many West Africans have similar traditions. Just because they came from the east does not meant it is Egypt.
She is a Euronut in black face avatar but we bust her everytime. Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] ^ Yatunde Lisa, all you've done is show cultural similarities but you have yet to provide definitive proof that they all stem from Egypt as a single source. Akan traditions of migrating from the 'east' won't cut it because many West Africans have similar traditions. Just because they came from the east does not meant it is Egypt.
get the names right, you have this pointing at a long Big O post not Yatunde Lisa.
I made this thread as a Big O tribute not Yatunde. All of these diffusion graphics are Big O. Big O has been posting classics as Asante on ES reloaded for years, Yatunde is a new jack. You're a guest in the culture, so stay on code please, follow the leaders
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-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2707 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^digital white face
I am 40 percent European... I can use any gif I want
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2707 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] ^ Yatunde Lisa, all you've done is show cultural similarities but you have yet to provide definitive proof that they all stem from Egypt as a single source.
You mean Big O. I've shown the most damning evidence against the denial that the modern peoples of interior Africa -diaspora (even in modern practices of Blacks in the Americas), and particular the NC speakers are the primary descendants of the ancient Khamites.
Ancient Khamet was founded on the Ausarian religion. This is what distinguished Khamet from everything else. It was called heaven on Earth for a reason. This religion is a cultural characteristic of a greater group, which is the NC speakers known formerly during the predynastic period as the Anu/"Badarian" people.
These Negroid people persisted in Kemet throughout the dynastic period until the Late Period. The dispersal of the Negroid element is what bought the religion throughout just about all of Africa.
So what older culture/civilization in Africa practiced the Ausarian religion that Kemet was founded on? If you do not have a single example than your doubt of this diffusion is nothing more than cointelpro gas lighting.
quote: Akan traditions of migrating from the 'east' won't cut it because many West Africans have similar traditions. Just because they came from the east does not meant it is Egypt.
What is with this cointelpro coalition and this "won't cut it" shyt like I haven't dusted y'all asses throughout this entire "debate" lol. The oral tradition coupled with the anthropologist observed cultural unity between the Akan and contemporary cultures of the region is icing on the cake. We have DNA confirming the main lineage of the NC speakers in ancient Khametic royalty. The Negroid skulls being the dominant, AND Benin sickle cell. The word Akan even has translative meaning in Medu Neter;
Akan Akan - the name of a god Akaniu - a class of gods like Osiris
The Akan NAME conforms to the Khametic religion!!!!!
And yet you and this goofy ass World Wide Web cointelpro coalition try to gaslight Black people to deny that the NC family was in and came out of Khamet.
"Anu" people was concocted by Émile Amélineau but not considered credible today nor is Petrie's translation of the glyphs of this tile. The author of the Dynastic Race Theory, Flinders Petrie was considered to be an Egyptologist who did a lot of research and wrote books research but was admittedly not an expert on Hieroglyphics.
Émile Amélineau (1850 – 1915) was a French Coptologist, archaeologist and Egyptologist. He was the first archaeologist to excavate the tombs of the First Dynasty pharaohs of Ancient Egypt at the Umm el-Qa'ab section of Abydos,[5] his findings outlined in several volumes of material published in the early years of the 20th century.
But his work as an excavator has attracted strong criticism, not least from Flinders Petrie, the founder of modern scientific Egyptology. Amélineau dug at Abydos from 1894 to 1898. Petrie was awarded the concession to dig there by Gaston Maspero, head of the Antiquities Service, after Amélineau had declared that there was nothing more to be found there. Petrie was appalled at what had been done, and did not mince his words. He wrote:
"During four years there had been the scandal of Amelineau's work at the Royal Tombs of Abydos. He had been given a concession to work there for five years; no plans were kept (a few incorrect ones were made later), there was no record of where things were found, no useful publication. He boasted that he had reduced to chips the pieces of stone vases which he did not care to remove, and burnt up the remains of the woodwork of the 1st dynasty in his kitchen."
Amélineau was so well connected that it was felt to be unsafe to tell him that the concession had been reassigned in case he came back, and he did not discover what had happened until some years later.
Amelineau responded to the criticism in his tardy publication of his finds. But the fact was that his work merely produced a series of finds of tombs and artefacts, while Petrie, by sifting the rubble that Amélineau left behind, was able to establish the whole chronology of the First dynasty. Petrie's work using scientific methods established Petrie's reputation, and conversely severely damaged that of Amélineau. Jane A. Hill has said that "Amelineau was not an archaeologist and basically plundered the cemetery in search of goods he could sell to antiquities collectors.
Posts: 42938 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Big O: [qb] You say that despite the evidence of cultural diffusion from ancient Kemet into inner Africa shown above.
All you've shown is evidence of cultural commonalities. That is NOT the same as cultural diffusion from one area of the continent to another.
Cultural Diffusion is defined as;
"cultural diffusion has to do with how the many different parts of culture are adopted by other cultures."
Was Ausarian culture not the backbone of Kemetic civilization? Wasn't the worship of Ausar what set Kemet apart from Nubia? Is there is any evidence of Ausar being worshipped in civilizations much earlier than ancient Kemet? Not to my knowledge. If there was a civilization in the ancient Sahara from which all of this diffused from, then please detail this place, and the people who inhabited it. If not then we can safely say that the worship of Ausar is fundamentally a Nile Valley and specifically a Kemetic practice. The worship of Ausar was also an ETHNIC distinguishment according to Emile A. Meaning that this "religion" was centered around one particular ethnic group that Ausar was said to have belonged to. Narmer who resurrected the domination of the Anu/Bantu people was an ETHNIC representative.
Djeuti...What ethnic group still has the practice of signifying their divine authority with a bulltails?
The Niger-Congo speakers from East to West all use this distinctly Ausarian relic to signify authority. These groups are tied together through common genetic lineages albeit some variation, which implies that "ethnic" distinguishment of the worshipers of Ausar. What region of Africa was this practiced and was also a region where the Niger-Congo speakers congregated for this to be so widespread today?
quote: You have yet to provide proof that the other Africans actually recieved their motifs from Egypt.
That's asinine. So identical practices and traditions found in Kemet that are also seen in modern day Africans that certified certified certified scholars have ascertained is evidence of cultural diffusion does not matter because why Djhueti? Because the scholars asserting this are Black African? Do you not respect the work of scholars from Africa speaking against wyte Western bs?
quote:My statement on reactionary argument wasn't pertaining to specifically to you but to other Africanists who admit to such!
Regardless it is completely irrelevant to what I and others have argued. Ausar Imhotep does not reference European unity to justify his grouping of Bantu and Kemetic languages among others.
quote: Correction. Kemet's independent political rule was destroyed NOT its entire culture which survives up until today ,
Djhueti it did die in Egypt. The people in Egypt today for the most part of are foreigners to the civilization as Rutgers professor Ivan Van Sertima regularly asserted in his lectures. "They hadn't a damn thing to do with the building of those pyramids" his words. I believe him and his research over you. Regardless of their perceived genetic "Africaness" they are not the descendants of ancient Kemet, and everyone knows that. Why else Dogon do the people of Mali have so much integral knowledge of the ancient Kemetic religion whereas modern Egyptians are clueless about these aspects of ancient Kemet?
" The Dogon, an ancient people in Africa, are mainly populated in the modern nations of Mali and Burkino Faso in West Africa, the epicenter of the historical medieval Mali Empire. When western anthropologists first began to study Dogon culture they were baffled at the group's advanced knowledge of the universe. They were specifically astonished at their intricate understanding of the Sirius planetary system (Alpha Canis Majoris).
Historical commentators believe that the Dogon's cosmological lore goes back thousands of years to at least 3200 BC, during the pre-dynastic age of ancient Egypt, of the Kemet-Nubian family group of the Nile Valley region. Is it only a coincident that the Dogon's oral history includes an eastern migration story prior to their settling in the Bandiagara Plateau region, near the Southern edge of the Sahara desert between the 13th and 16th centuries?"
What ancient practices in modern Egypt today do you think could possibly rival the connection displayed with the Dogon carrying the knowledge of the divine Sirius mystery system?
quote: especially in rural areas!
Their connection to ancient Kemet would mirror a connection to more southerly African cultures, because the latter are who were the fundamental players in the maintenance and founding of ancient Kemet.
quote:Another is through migration either direct or multi-step. Another is through religious proselytism. You have not proven that whatever cultural affinities other Africans have with Egypt is the result of any of this other than a common paleo-African commonality.
Djhueti you are a paid gas lighters! So at this point you realize that you look like ass faced denying the clear cultural continuity in these various displays of this form of evidence that I have grown fund of. Now how in tf could it be "paleo-African" when these practices are directly tied to the worship of Ausar? Ausar worship is THE foundation of Kemetic civilization that began for all practical purposes around 3,100 BC. With Kemet being the only cultural apparatus that bounded distinct Africans to worship said culture, what evidence do you have of a "paleo African" version of Kemet and where in Africa did this meeting up occur? Show evidence of Ausar being worshiped in this region.
quote: Yes, and their descendants today are known as Sudanese Copts. What do they have to do with all the other peoples you have shown?
These professional gas lighters are trying so hard to make it appear that the African settlement patterns of today mirror that of antiquity against all available evidence. They really do not want smart Blacks to think this out for ourselves.
" "Oral traditions of the ruling Abrade (Aduana) Clan state that Akans originated from ancient Ghana. The Akan people migrated from the north through Egypt and settled in Nubia (Sudan). Around 500 AD (5th century), due to the pressure exerted on Nubia by the Axumite kingdom of Ethiopia, Nubia was scattered and the Akan people moved west and established small trading kingdoms. These kingdoms grew and around 750 AD the Ghana Empire was formed. The Empire lasted from 750 AD to 1200 AD and collapsed as a result of the introduction of Islam in Western Sudan, due to the zeal of the Muslims to impose their religion, their ancestors eventually left for Kong (i.e. present-day Ivory Coast). From Kong, they moved to Wam and then to Dormaa (both located in present-day Brong-Ahafo region). The movement from Kong was necessitated by the desire of the people to find suitable savannah conditions since they were not used to forest life. Around the 14th century, they moved from Dormaa South Eastwards to Twifo-Heman North West Cape Coast. This move was commercially motivated."
Here are more sources supporting what has been written about the Akan's Northeast African origin.
But Djhueti says that the modern ARAB ARAB ARABS (think about the taller fresh and fit clown) of Sudan today are truly relics of ancient Nile Valley civilization.
quote: But where is the proof of cultural diffusion to as far as West Africa?
Stop the foking gas lighting. This thread had ABUNDANT UNCONTESTED PROOF of these migratory patterns diffusing ancient Nile Valley culture into not only West Africa, but Southern, Central and East Africa as well.
quote:Archaeology and especially genetics has debunked his claims of Egyptian immigration to West Africa unless you have any updated info to the contrary that nobody else not even experts from Africa have.
Reich 2020, Hawass 2013, Keita 2018, Khairat et al 2020 all verify that Diop was correct. To contrary how many studies of the dozen or so specimens tested have found primary genetic affinity between ancient Khamites and modern Egyptians? Even Zaharan whom I have had to flatten in this debate does not make that dead argument, and yet you are. The archaeological evidence is abundant, and you simply refuse to acknowledge it because wyte didn't paste it in their books. This is why I tell Black people to be wary of non Blacks who appear to have an interest in this area. They all come insidious places, and the sad part is y'all are the "nice ones" out of your groups.
This is not an either/or issue. The African cultural elements of Nile Valley civilization originated in older African populations going back over 10,000 years. So it isn't simply that West Africa ONLY received their culture from Kemet as opposed to BOTH sharing connections going back into prehistory.
For example, mummification was first found in the Sahara with Uan Muhuggiag. The earliest Nile Boats were found on rock art from in Northern Sudan and Southern Egypt thousands of years prior to the Nile Kingdoms. The earliest evidences for various practices such as wild pastoralism come from the Sahara wet phase. The oldest stone tools and grinders are found across Africa many thousands of years prior to the Nile Valley. But at the same token that doesn't dismiss influence from the later Nile Valley either as at one time lake Mega Chad and various tributaries of the Nile once would have made a corridor between Central, West and East Africa much more practical.
And other scholars have been pointing these African connections out from long ago such as Wallace Budge in "From Fetish to God in Ancient Egypt" where fetishism is identified as an ancient African traditional practice.
quote: goblet d’alviella (Hibbert Lectures, London, 1891) defines fetishism as the ‘belief that the appropriation of a thing may secure the services of the spirit lodged within it’. And an object becomes a fetish when spirits penetrate into it, and so make it the vehicle or organ of their own personality. He carefully distinguishes between the talisman or amulet and the fetish, for in the former the spirits act on inanimate things from without, using them as implements, while in the latter the spirits are embodied in a concrete object. On African fetishism see Nassau, Fetishism in West Africa, London, 1904. This work contains the best and fullest account of West African Fetishism which has hitherto appeared.
and
quote: One of the oldest forms of religion in the predynastic period was what is now called animism. This included the worship of the souls of men, especially of those who were dead, the worship of incorporeal spirits who govern the natural world and who for good or evil direct or interfere with the affairs of men. The worship of the souls of the dead, commonly called ancestor-worship, was based upon the anxiety of the living (1) to obtain the goodwill and favour and help of the souls of their dead relations and friends, and (2) to avert any and every kind of evil which the dead souls might have the power to inflict upon their living kinsfolk and friends and connexions. Primitive man believed that all animate and many inanimate objects possessed qualities which resembled those of his mind and soul, and that these qualities could detach themselves from the bodies in which they were living.
posted
"This is not an either/or issue. The African cultural elements of Nile Valley civilization originated in older African populations going back over 10,000 years. -"
Who were these populations, and where was this grand event? Do you have any evidence of these modern cultural practices that we attribute to Nile Valley civilization in the places that you mention?
"So it isn't simply that West Africa ONLY received their culture from Kemet as opposed to BOTH sharing connections going back into prehistory."
"West Africa" is not a people. It's one of the most biologically diverse places on Earth. The Mande for example who are in West Africa, and are NC speakers have a distinct population history from say the Yoruba or Igbos. So when you say "West Africa' who are you talking about? We know that the Mande and Nilo Saharan speakers spread into the Western Sahara, following desertification. A product of their habitation is Dhar Tichitt. What evidence do we have of Yoruba activity in Western Africa during the early Holocene between 6,000 BC - 4,000 BC?
"For example, mummification was first found in the Sahara with Uan Muhuggiag."
Can that mummy be tied to the Ausarian religion? Or was it an element that was incorporated into what would become the religion once the peoples moved East to settle along the river Nile?
"The earliest evidences for various practices such as wild pastoralism come from the Sahara wet phase. The oldest stone tools and grinders are found across Africa many thousands of years prior to the Nile Valley. But at the same token that doesn't dismiss influence from the later Nile Valley either as at one time lake Mega Chad and various tributaries of the Nile once would have made a corridor between Central, West and East Africa much more practical."
Sooo to counter direct Khametic cultural practices found in modern African cultures you point to general archaic features of civilizations like stone tools to try to diminish the intricacies that of the examples shown throughout this thread. Your argument is so ridiculous on so many levels. There was a diffusion from Khamet, and overwhelming evidence proves that at this point.
posted
One problem with all kinds of diffusion is time. It is easy to find cultural similarities between different cultural traits and then claim diffusion. A typical example is the claims that all pyramids in the world have he same origin, wherever they are found, even if they are not from the same time or continent.
Often diffusionist claims overlook the chronological differences between the objects or customs they claim are connected. Can a certain type of clothing or adornment from let us say the 1800s or the 1900s really be connected with clothings or adornment from 2000 years earlier in another part of a continent? Does that mean that the cultures which stood at the receiving end of the diffusion did not change in all these years? Do the Zulus of the 19th century have the same material, or spiritual culture as their ancestors 2000 years back in time?
And if Egyptian culture diffused into other parts of Africa, 2000 years ago, or 2500 years ago, do we find Egyptian artifacts from that time among those peoples and in the regions which were the receivers? Do we find contemporary Egyptian artworks, or writing, or building styles?
We know that some Egyptian artifacts spread as far as Scandinavia in Northern Europe since we have found Egyptian beads in bronze age sites. Do we find such beads among the people whose cultures are supposedly diffused from the ancient Egyptians?
To make a strong case one must take into account chronological aspects, and look at a whole chain of evidence from ancient Egyptian artifacts which are found in other cultures, to the development of derived cultural traits that survived even into modern time.
To only post pictures of superficially similar artifacts, or customs is not enough, one must be able to account for the whole chain of cultural development. To only post pics of similar cultural traits would not suffice to verify such a chain in any article sent to any serious archaeological journal.
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"West Africa" is not a people. It's one of the most biologically diverse places on Earth. The Mande for example who are in West Africa, and are NC speakers have a distinct population history from say the Yoruba or Igbos. So when you say "West Africa' who are you talking about? We know that the Mande and Nilo Saharan speakers spread into the Western Sahara, following desertification. A product of their habitation is Dhar Tichitt. What evidence do we have of Yoruba activity in Western Africa during the early Holocene between 6,000 BC - 4,000 BC?
Keep in mind Big O thinks that people in West Africa are the actual descendants of Dynastic Kemet not just recipients of Kemetian migrants into their societies
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: One problem with all kinds of diffusion is time. It is easy to find cultural similarities between different cultural traits and then claim diffusion. A typical example is the claims that all pyramids in the world have he same origin, wherever they are found, even if they are not from the same time or continent.
Often diffusionist claims overlook the chronological differences between the objects or customs they claim are connected. Can a certain type of clothing or adornment from let us say the 1800s or the 1900s really be connected with clothings or adornment from 2000 years earlier in another part of a continent? Does that mean that the cultures which stood at the receiving end of the diffusion did not change in all these years? Do the Zulus of the 19th century have the same material, or spiritual culture as their ancestors 2000 years back in time?
And if Egyptian culture diffused into other parts of Africa, 2000 years ago, or 2500 years ago, do we find Egyptian artifacts from that time among those peoples and in the regions which were the receivers? Do we find contemporary Egyptian artworks, or writing, or building styles?
We know that some Egyptian artifacts spread as far as Scandinavia in Northern Europe since we have found Egyptian beads in bronze age sites. Do we find such beads among the people whose cultures are supposedly diffused from the ancient Egyptians?
To make a strong case one must take into account chronological aspects, and look at a whole chain of evidence from ancient Egyptian artifacts which are found in other cultures, to the development of derived cultural traits that survived even into modern time.
To only post pictures of superficially similar artifacts, or customs is not enough, one must be able to account for the whole chain of cultural development. To only post pics of similar cultural traits would not suffice to verify such a chain in any article sent to any serious archaeological journal.
Was waiting on you to attack the argument, but you didn't say anything pertinent as far as that is concerned.
@Lioness - I would say that A AND B are pretty close.
quote:Originally posted by Big O: "This is not an either/or issue. The African cultural elements of Nile Valley civilization originated in older African populations going back over 10,000 years. -"
Who were these populations, and where was this grand event? Do you have any evidence of these modern cultural practices that we attribute to Nile Valley civilization in the places that you mention?
What do you mean where were those cultures? Are you saying that you are not aware of any cultures that existed in Africa outside of and prior to the Nile Valley but want to argue whether everything in West Africa originated in diffusion from the Nile?
What I mean by it isn't either or is that it isn't either all culture similarities are due to diffusion from the Nile or these were all home grown cultural traits tied to prehistoric traditions. It is a little of both.
Africa has a history over 100,000 years old and most of it has not really been touched.
What I am saying is for example many elements of the Nile Valley had an origin in cultures that were preliterate and therefore we don't know the names of but we know of them from archaeology.
So if you are going to argue about diffusion you should first check to see if there are older archaeological evidences of some trait or tradition that predates the Nile before defending this concept.
quote:Originally posted by Big O: "So it isn't simply that West Africa ONLY received their culture from Kemet as opposed to BOTH sharing connections going back into prehistory."
"West Africa" is not a people. It's one of the most biologically diverse places on Earth. The Mande for example who are in West Africa, and are NC speakers have a distinct population history from say the Yoruba or Igbos. So when you say "West Africa' who are you talking about? We know that the Mande and Nilo Saharan speakers spread into the Western Sahara, following desertification. A product of their habitation is Dhar Tichitt. What evidence do we have of Yoruba activity in Western Africa during the early Holocene between 6,000 BC - 4,000 BC?
I never said West Africa was a people, as opposed to a region of Africa with a long history. To claim that all of that culture came from the Nile is disingenuous. What I am saying is that some of these traditions you claim originated from the Nile are part of an African cultural complex or pattern of complexes that has existed in some form for tens of thousands of years. Totemism and animism did not originate in the Nile Valley. Carving did not originate in the Nile Valley. The oldest beads are from East Africa from over 50,000 years ago. This idea that the Nile Valley was the only place that had culture in Africa and everything that appears similar elsewhere in Africa is due to diffusion is false. That is not denying the common features that are found in other African cultures and the ancient Nile. I am just saying that it doesn't mean that all those common features originated in the Nile and were diffused from there.
To put it another way, even though you didn't say it, do you think that side locks and elaborate braids first arose in the Nile Valley and that all these other African groups in Africa got their hairstyles from there? Of course you wouldn't say that because it seems to ubiquitous across Africa for it to simply be a Nile Valley case of diffusion. I am saying that some of these other similarities are also ubiquitous as well across Africa.
quote:Originally posted by Big O: "For example, mummification was first found in the Sahara with Uan Muhuggiag."
Can that mummy be tied to the Ausarian religion? Or was it an element that was incorporated into what would become the religion once the peoples moved East to settle along the river Nile?
Dar Tichitt had mummification and that does not require Ausarian cosmology. If anything the Ausarian cosmology is tied to pre dynastic cultures from the Nile searching for water and oases as a part of survival in the once wet Sahara, which predates Dynastic culture. And many cultural elements are a result of those influences which also reached into other parts of Africa. Ancestor worship, the belief in some aspect of the soul surviving death and being able to communicate to dead ancestors and/or leaving offerings to them in special shrines is NOT unique to the Nile Valley and did not originate there.
quote:Originally posted by Big O: "The earliest evidences for various practices such as wild pastoralism come from the Sahara wet phase. The oldest stone tools and grinders are found across Africa many thousands of years prior to the Nile Valley. But at the same token that doesn't dismiss influence from the later Nile Valley either as at one time lake Mega Chad and various tributaries of the Nile once would have made a corridor between Central, West and East Africa much more practical."
Sooo to counter direct Khametic cultural practices found in modern African cultures you point to general archaic features of civilizations like stone tools to try to diminish the intricacies that of the examples shown throughout this thread. Your argument is so ridiculous on so many levels. There was a diffusion from Khamet, and overwhelming evidence proves that at this point.
You call them Khemetic when I would just call them African and not something that originated in "Kemet". That is the difference. Carving a bird on a stone did not come from Kemet. Now if there were heiroglyphs being drawn/carved that would be different, but come on carving a bird? Seriously? Why does that require influence from Kemet as if Africans havent been carving things for thousands of years?
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quote:Originally posted by Big O: ^^ That is concrete evidence. What are you talking about lol?
Hardly, cherry picked images from different time periods, different contexts and different geographic locations is not evidence of anything more than your ability to cherry pick pictures.
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posted
"What do you mean where were those cultures?"
Well where tf was that said in the quoted passage for one?
"or these were all home grown cultural traits tied to prehistoric traditions. It is a little of both."
That is your inference, and I asked for specifics on these prehistoric traditions that explain why we see parallels in these various African peoples and ancient Kemet.
"What I am saying is for example many elements of the Nile Valley had an origin in cultures that were preliterate"
I definitely agree with this, but the combination of these cultural elements in that place in time is what lead to the creation of dynastic Khamet.
"So if you are going to argue about diffusion you should first check to see if there are older archaeological evidences of some trait or tradition that predates the Nile before defending this concept."
That has already been looked into. Unless there is an Atlantis in the ancient Alien Sahara like the one that Henry Lhote hypothesized that we generally don't know about then what else should we look for at this early period to explain these cultural overlappings. Better...Why is there a need to provide another explanation that has absolutely no basis in fact, but is meaningless conjecture?
"I never said West Africa was a people, as opposed to a region of Africa with a long history. To claim that all of that culture came from the Nile is disingenuous."
That is something that again has been attributed to me that was never stated. The Mande and Nilo-Saharan speakers in the region did not come from Kemet from the evidence that I have seen. The Mande being NCish do have a Nile Valley-Nubian origin however. The Pygmies in the region have been indigenous there before the coming of the main NC branch that dominates the region today.
"What I am saying is that some of these traditions you claim originated from the Nile are part of an African cultural complex or pattern of complexes that has existed in some form for tens of thousands of years."
What you are negating to acknowledge is that these traditions that are pointed out are often times linked to directly to the distinctly Khemetic religion centering around the honoring of Ausar. Why does it appear that you are trying to SO HARD to find ANYTHING to CREATE DOUBT on what is an apparent truth. You keep trying to negate this connection, when these groups (Akan, Yoruba, Bemleke, Igbo, Ewe, etc etc etc) literally have ORAL TRADITIONS of coming from Kemet with intricate details of historical events including NAMES.
"Dar Tichitt had mummification and that does not require Ausarian cosmology. If anything the Ausarian cosmology is tied to pre dynastic cultures from the Nile searching for water and oases as a part of survival in the once wet Sahara, which predates Dynastic culture. And many cultural elements are a result of those influences which also reached into other parts of Africa. Ancestor worship, the belief in some aspect of the soul surviving death and being able to communicate to dead ancestors is NOT unique to the Nile Valley."
So... you keep trying to tear apart the culture unique to ancient Kemet, and shown in tact in the modern cultures of NC speakers, and then you turn around and acknowledge the undeniable parallel while claiming that they arose independently from unspecified but common African elements. That is YOU doing mental gymnastics to avoid acknowledging that NC speakers have a direct link to Kemet - Nile Valley civilization.
"Carving a bird on a stone did not come from Kemet. Now if there were heiroglyphs being drawn/carved that would be different, but come on carving a bird? Seriously?"
The famous bird and serpent/Sekreh is evidence of this diffusion.
quote:Originally posted by Big O: ^^ That is concrete evidence. What are you talking about lol?
Hardly, cherry picked images from different time periods, different contexts and different geographic locations is not evidence of anything more than your ability to cherry pick pictures.
Nope. That evidence confirms who are the people who belonged to the culture of ancient Kemet. It confirms that it was their everyday culture that the World is fascinated by when at it's highest state.
quote:Nope. That evidence confirms who are the people who belonged to the culture of ancient Kemet. It confirms that it was their everyday culture that the World is fascinated by when at it's highest state.
It just confirms that you like to cherry pic images you think support your ideas. Try to write an article, built around those cherry picked images and forward to a serious archaeological magazine, then we will see if you will be taken seriously.
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