quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Your point? [/qb]
are you saying an African affinity is found in those groups?
Of course I'm saying that. My positions are very clear. Your positions are always unstated and implicit. Yeah you've posted WHG hgs, but what is your position?
Are you saying there is no African ancestry in WHG? State your position clearly, in a way that can be falsified. That means no hiding behind hgs, or quotes.
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are you saying an African affinity is found in those groups? ]
Of course I'm saying that. My positions are very clear. Your positions are always unstated and implicit. Yeah you've posted WHG hgs, but what is your position?
Are you saying there is no African ancestry in WHG? State your position clearly, in a way that can be falsified. That means no hiding behind hgs, or quotes.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: WHG includes La Braña.
U5b2c1 mother C-V20 father
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: WHG haplogroups are represented by the Loschbour remains Y-DNA haplogroup I2a1b and mtDNA haplogroup U5b1a.
So three Hgs are mentioned, YDNA I and C and mtDNA U5b
Do you think one or more of those is of African origin?
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posted
As expected. Only in it to troll and antagonize people while evasive as to what her point is.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Of course I'm saying that. My positions are very clear. Your positions are always unstated and implicit. Yeah you've posted WHG hgs, but what is your position?
Are you saying there is no African ancestry in WHG? State your position clearly, in a way that can be falsified. That means no hiding behind hgs, or quotes.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: As expected. Only in it to troll and antagonize people while refusing to make clear what her point is.
My point is that I don't have an alternative position about those haplogroups. Current research classifies them as of Eurasian origin. So if somebody suggests one or more of them is of African origin I am going to ask about it
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Well, if you have no underlying bias/alternative position, I can just post the "current research" below, and it will be settled:
quote: The ~14,000 year old Upper Paleolithic hunter-gatherer from Switzerland 12 can also be modeled as WHG+Mota, but has no significant evidence of Basal Eurasian ancestry (α=-0.9±5.1%), consistent with its close relationship to WHG 12 (Fig. 1b).
But, of course, it won't be settled, no matter how much evidence is posted. You're just here to antagonize.
quote: My point is that I don't have an alternative position about those haplogroups. Current research classifies them as of Eurasian origin.
Current research doesn't deny WHG have African ancestry. So appealing to current research isn't going to help you. Current research suggests WHG have Mota-like ancestry. So, my question to you is, why are you distorting current research to mean WHG lacks African ancestry? And why are you attributing your own biases to "current research", when it's really you who is making claims through proxy and innuendo?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Mbuti La Braña in the black: WGSD 1 migration residual.
Mbuti Loschbour in the black: HOD 5 migration residual.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QB] Well, if you have no underlying bias/alternative position, I can just post the "current research" below, and it will be settled:
quote: The ~14,000 year old Upper Paleolithic hunter-gatherer from Switzerland 12 can also be modeled as WHG+Mota, but has no significant evidence of Basal Eurasian ancestry (α=-0.9±5.1%), consistent with its close relationship to WHG 12 (Fig. 1b).
Interetsing, if they are saying Villabruna could be modeled as WHG + Mota that suggests WHG is non-African but Villabruna has plus Mota Ethiopian.
If Villabruna has Ethiopian or some type of African affiliation is it due to Africans front migrating into into Western Europe and mixing with them?
I'm trying to find out what the implications are rather then endless technical discussions of admixture programs
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Interetsing, if they are saying Villabruna could be modeled as WHG + Mota that suggests WHG is non-African but Villabruna has plus Mota Ethiopian.
It's not saying that. But it sounds like you finally slipped up and revealed the underlying bias that is causing you to cape for WHG purity. Your position is that all samples of the WHG ancestry type are fully non-African, and that Villabruna is an exception?
What is your evidence for this claim?
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Interetsing, if they are saying Villabruna could be modeled as WHG + Mota that suggests WHG is non-African but Villabruna has plus Mota Ethiopian.
So you finally slipped up and revealed the underlying bias that is causing you to cape for WHG purity. Your position is that all samples of the WHG ancestry type are non-African, and Villabruna is an exception.
What is your evidence for this claim?
It's actually you that slipped up.
I asked you about an African affinity in WHG and you replied with a specimen that they said could be modeled as WHG + Mota.
I asked you about WHG not WHG + Mota.
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posted
There is no such thing as a WHG-only sample. There are only samples that have WHG ancestry as their majority component. I already explain that thread pages ago:
None of the green components below have bones to go along with their ancestry components. Anti-African trolls have no problem when you talk about these green components. But as soon as you talk about Basal Eurasian being African they want to hold the conversation hostage by pretending to be interested in skeletal remains. --Swenet
I think all of those samples (the red ovals) are mixed with ancestry other than the green ancestral components that epitomize their ancestry. For instance, the real EEF is Anatolian farmer (EEF is Anatolian Farmer + WHG ancestry foreign to it). ... I think the EEF ancestral population lived during the Epipalaeolithic, somewhere in the eastern Mediterranean Basin or close by. This would make 7ky old Stuttgart a young and watered down example of the Epipalaeolithic EEF ancestral population. In that sense I would say we don't have bones of the actual ancestral EEF population. --Swenet
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I asked you about WHG not WHG + Mota.
Thanks for slipping up and revealing your position of WHG purity for the second time. You're saying the European samples are fully WHG, with nothing else. Prove it.
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posted
Pitting me against Tukuler isn't going to work.
You said you didn't ask me about WHG+Mota samples, but only about WHG-only samples. What is an example of a WHG-only sample? As I already said above, WHG-only samples don't exist. But you seem to know of them, so let's see some examples.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I asked you about WHG not WHG + Mota.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Pitting me against Tukuler isn't going to work.
You said you didn't ask me about WHG+Mota samples, but only about WHG-only samples. What is an example of a WHG-only sample? As I already said above, WHG-only samples don't exist. But you seem to know of them, so let's see some examples.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I asked you about WHG not WHG + Mota.
You're the one that said "WHG have African ancestry"
So I'm asking you why and also how it relates to the haplogroups
I quoted Tukular because he had listed the La Brana DNA and you also talked about it
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Whole genome vs one ing SNP?
I posted La Brana to correct the deliberate lie WHG is Loschbour.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: WHG includes La Braña.
U5b2c1 mother C-V20 father
do one or both of these haplogroups have a deep African origin?
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Pitting me against Tukuler isn't going to work.
You said you didn't ask me about WHG+Mota samples, but only about WHG-only samples. What is an example of a WHG-only sample? As I already said above, WHG-only samples don't exist. But you seem to know of them, so let's see some examples.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I asked you about WHG not WHG + Mota.
You're the one that said "WHG have African ancestry"
So I'm asking you why and also how it relates to the haplogroups
I quoted Tukular because he had listed the La Brana DNA and you also talked about it
I'm not interested in debating someone who constantly runs and hides at every turn:
You're here to antagonize, evade questions and troll people while hiding behind quotes and information you barely understand.
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posted
You constantly quote Lazraidis, use the lingo he uses "EEF" "BE" an "WHG" , use his data and you didn;t use these terms prior to his articles.
But you have your own definitions for everything and you make statements like "WHG have African ancestry" but refuse to explain why and how.
However you are too defensive and competitive to interact with, I'd rather talk to xyyman or Clyde if I had the choice because even if we don't agree they answer questions and freely explain their positions
conversation with you, over, also disinterested
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: But you have your own definitions for everything and you make statements like "WHG have African ancestry" but refuse to explain why and how.
TREEMIX analyses were already posted on the previous page. You first tried to antagonize (troll) that TREEMIX data on the previous page, but got no response. Later, you tried to disprove that data using inappropriate information. One cannot disprove autosomal admixture by posting hgs and this has been explained to you many times, so you're trolling on that count, too:
You can use haplogroups to infer the ancestry that must be in a population. But you can't use haplogroups to say certain forms of ancestry are not in a population. The failure of haplogroups to pick up on certain types of ancestry was proven a long time ago, when several ghost populations were not detected in haplogroup profiles. -- Swenet
So pls don't try to say you wanted to know the whys and hows. The whys of WHG African ancestry were already posted (TREEMIX residuals) and I already posted the hows (archaeological evidence of migration from Africa to postglacial Europe). This was already explain before this conversation even started. So please don't try to change the narrative and pretend you weren't trying to antagonize that information with your preconceived agenda of WHG purity. That was your original intention. That underlying intention is what people are calling you out on. When things don't go as planned you want to spin your original intentions by talking about "why and how" of African admixture. Nobody is buying it.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Lazaridis' so called "non-African" is an African component. All of it is African, including Basal Eurasian and other offshoots of this ancestry that have yet to surface in African aDNA. The only thing Eurasian about Lazaridis' "non-African" is whatever left Africa in the form of eastern non-African, WHG, etc. But the latter are a relatively late (younger than 55ky old) subset of a component that existed in Africa in some form 120ky ago. That is my take.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Who's pretending they don't get that 500,000 SNPs relate Mbuti-like to La Braña WHG? How many sex chromosome SNPs involved? And that's supposed to trump HOD & WGSD results? Fake news.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Whole genome vs one ing SNP?
I posted La Brana to correct the deliberate lie WHG is Loschbour.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: WHG haplogroups ARE represented by the Loschbour remains Y-DNA haplogroup I2a1b and mtDNA haplogroup U5b1a.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: WHG INCLUDES La Braña.
U5b2c1 mother C-V20 father
do one or both of these haplogroups have a deep African origin?
Don't need no 'deep African origin' mtDNA or MSY. More than 500,000 SNPs show the African in both Loschbour and La Braña, Laz's two WHG reps.
Until falsified (not fake news-ified) Thass awl volks!
WHG is La Braña & Loschbour, blue in the lozenges. Above the lozenges are the residuals for Mbuti. Black and dark blue squares indicate sharing with Mbuti, green squares to lesser extents.
posted
If open-minded people want to know more about African ancestry in WHG Europe, let me know. I will answer patiently and to the best of my ability.
Here is some relevant information that has been discussed recently:
Notice that the L candidates are misattributed as N*, when they should be categorized as L3(xR).
Uniparental/Y DNA:
quote:"The prescence in Portugal of both the A and E1 haplogroups may be independent from the slave trade (otherwise E3a would be well represented since it comprises the majority of West African lineages). These findings either suggest a pre-neolithic migration from North Africa or a more recent origin from a founder population of small size that did not carry haplogroup E3a, which is a major component in North African populations today. TMRCA for Portuguese E1 lineages estimated as 22.9 +/- 7.2 ky favors the first scenario"
As far as WHG samples having non-WHG ancestry, this was commented on recently by Tyrannohotep:
ADMIXTURE
quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep: And from the supps, admixture proportions for the ancient individuals analyzed. I'm a bit surprised to see that Cheddar Man (third man down from the top) already has a little snippet of Anatolian Neolithic-like ancestry. Either there was already some admixture from the Anatolian Neolithic trickling north into Cheddar's territory, or it's actually something else and the algorithm misidentified it (there are only two options presented, Anatolian Neolithic and WHG).
As Tyrannohotep correctly pointed out, the exact nature of then non-WHG ancestry highlighted in this analysis is unknown. But it does show that the concept of 'WHG-only samples' is bogus. They all have other types of ancestry, including African. If they had used other samples in the ADMIXTURE analysis above (e.g. Mota), a lot of the WHG samples would show a degree of African ancestry compared to pre-LGM Europeans.
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posted
^^^^^Great Work. Why is the chart so fuzzy? I am going to ask your business,,,you can PM. Did you do those yourselves? No dis-respect. Trying to make out fuzzy characters
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Who's pretending they don't get that 500,000 SNPs relate Mbuti-like to La Braña WHG? How many sex chromosome SNPs involved? And that's supposed to trump HOD & WGSD results? Fake news.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Whole genome vs one ing SNP?
I posted La Brana to correct the deliberate lie WHG is Loschbour.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: WHG haplogroups ARE represented by the Loschbour remains Y-DNA haplogroup I2a1b and mtDNA haplogroup U5b1a.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: WHG INCLUDES La Braña.
U5b2c1 mother C-V20 father
do one or both of these haplogroups have a deep African origin?
Don't need no 'deep African origin' mtDNA or MSY. More than 500,000 SNPs show the African in both Loschbour and La Braña, Laz's two WHG reps.
Until falsified (not fake news-ified) Thass awl volks!
WHG is La Braña & Loschbour, blue in the lozenges. Above the lozenges are the residuals for Mbuti. Black and dark blue squares indicate sharing with Mbuti, green squares to lesser extents.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
You can do it too. For an hour at a time,shoo everybody away or go out in the country and practice my mellow. Fiddle wit each and every option. From a 1/2 hr to an hour thrice a week. You'll be a champ lickitysplit (if right brained).
Its all down to 'in the box' tools. Snips from Laz2014 SI 16.1-4. Only the captioning and numbers are mine. Oh yeah, and drawing and coloring lozenges around the vertical oriented names.
Blue - WHG, either La Braña or Loschbour. Red -- EEF, either Iceman or Stuttgart. Purple ENA, either Andaman or Thai. Orange ENA, Karitiana Native Americas Indian.
Don Cordova's visuals work inspired me. I could try to be more pro like him. But for here? Now?
No shot across your bow to/from Swenet. Proper flags a flying a ready. La Braña 1 has no indigene African uniparental DNA. But you showed us his contemporaries mommies did, and @ 20% to boot. 15 kegs of Pusser's "gunpowder proof" loaded board your cargo hold.
Pussycat oughtta remember what happened to Little Finger, always plotting to set individuals at odds for his own benefit.
posted
I think you all are overestimating the intelligence of Lioness. It’s obvious she doesn’t understand the sometimes dissociative properties of Uniparental and autosomal DNA.
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More power to you with TreeMix. I know it can be done. But I wish the wannabe(s)……. ahem!^…. and the so called resident experts will spend more time parsing out the freely uploaded datasets instead of bitching and getting into these pissing contest. I need at least a couple of weeks(undisturbed) if I am to do a deep dive into using these freely available software. For now I rely on the flaws by these researchers. And they are making lots of mistakes. Eventually someone will break rank. They failed with their magic trick with the Abusir. Pointing at the “red component “and forget that East Sub Saharan Africans carried the brown “Abusir” component. Index finger point forward and the 3 fingers point towards you. They will continue to make mistakes like that, because the fact is AEians are Africans. They came from Sub-Saharan East Africa.
Ala – LuxManda…apparently 60% “Eurasian” (forcing Skoglund to accept the possibility the “Farmers” originated in Africa) but carrying mtDNA L2. Can't get more African than L2!! Right!?
“No shot across your bow to/from Swenet. Proper flags a flying a ready. La Braña 1 has no indigene African uniparental DNA.”
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
I would like to see how Baka or Biaka align with WHG in TreeMix. MButi are Nilo-Saharans and are closely related the Neolithics. Baka (west Africa) although “shorty” are very diverge from MButi. My thinking is Baka/Biaka are even closer to WHG than Mbuti/Nilo-Saharans
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
@Beyoku Notice how she poofed after trying fabricate a mtDNA L-free WHG Europe. Lol.
I agree, BTW. But she has a huge bias driving her posts which she tries to hide with other people's quotes or info. She appeals to "current research", but current research doesn't even support her. This betrays her bias, even though she tries her best to hide it.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: No shot across your bow to/from Swenet. Proper flags a flying a ready. La Braña 1 has no indigene African uniparental DNA. But you showed us his contemporaries mommies did, and @ 20% to boot. 15 kegs of Pusser's "gunpowder proof" loaded board your cargo hold.
Personally, I don't know exactly how much African ancestry these TREEMIX residuals and migration edges correspond to. I never looked into it seriously. But I remember some attempts to get admixture percentages soon after Labrana's genome was published. Here is one example:
quote:UPDATE: Due to the small number of SNPs, I pooled the two Mesolithic individuals into a single composite one; the K7b admixture proportions are: 9.3% African and 90.7% Atlantic_Baltic, which appears consistent with the position of the individuals in the European PCA plot. The sub-1,000 SNPs in common with the K7b do not give me a lot of confidence in the minority element, but, in any case, the high Atlantic_Baltic figure is what I would expect and appears consistent with the similarly high Atlantic_Baltic figure of the Swedish Neolithic hunter-gatherers.
UPDATE II: Using the K12b, the results are: 45% Atlantic_Med, 41.6% North_European, 10.3% East_African, 1% Sub_Saharan.
UPDATE III: In terms of the euro7 calculator, the results are: 89.6% Northwestern, 1.6% Southeastern, and 8.7% Far_Asian.
Don't know to what extent Dienekes' analysis is valid given the small amount of SNPs and other reservations I have with this type of ancestry assignment.
EDIT I now see your 20% was in reference to Chandler's ancient Portugese mtDNAs, not TREEMIX.
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From TreeMix manual. This is why I told ElMaestro he can’t remove LD.
Quote 4.3 Group together SNPs to account for linkage disequilibrium (-k) To account for the fact that nearby SNPs are not independent, group them together in windows of size n SNPs by using the -k ag. The order of SNPs in the input _le is assumed to be their order in the genome. We recommend using a value of n that far exceeds the known extent of LD in the organism in question (this will depend, of course, on the SNP density). For example, the build the ML tree using blocks of 1000 SNPs, run: >treemix -i input file.gz -k 1000 -o out stem
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Problem is most of these software are NOT Windows based. I have done coding in school but it has been years and never really used it as a career. Bought a Mac recently to get involve in these packages but just don’t get that two weeks in the country.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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When running ADMIXTURE, the less LD between allelic pairs the better. When have I ever posted my own results from treemix chief?
The issue is a lack of knowledge of genetics* and stats when it comes to most people running the software. believe it or not some folks who "run" tests elsewhere don't actually understand what they're doing and why, they just follow steps and post results.
It's one thing to plug and play values in to popaffiliator or drag files to GEDmatch. It's another thing to align and map genomes, run quality control, call variants, thin markers etc. etc. You'll run into issues very often no matter how well you follow instructions. Meaning you have to rely on your knowledge to work your way through them.
With that being said I noticed and contributed to this thread going off topic... OP Oshun it's your call where we go from here
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posted
Agreed…alignment was my main concern when I started looking into doing my own thing. How do I get around alignment issues? I understand SamTools supposed to take care of that but still a deeper knowledge is required to work through those roadblocks that may pop up because aDNA are essentially in “fragments” and not as wholesome/complete as the alignment Standard GRCh38? I assume alignment is very important. I will get to it one day. Good work by Sage
My thinking is if the alignment is off the STR may be off. I am not sure if the software can "self correct". But if the alignment is correct to the standard then we can pull STR?
QUOTE ----------- ^Lmao... I was going through the comments earlier and seen you were throwing subs.. I'm coming. It takes time when you don't have a super computer.
When running ADMIXTURE, the less LD between chromosome pairs the better. When have I ever posted my own results from treemix chief?
The issue is a lack of knowledge of genetics* and stats when it comes to most people running the software. believe it or not some folks who "run" tests elsewhere don't actually understand what they're doing and why, they just follow steps and post results.
It's one thing to plug and play values in to popaffiliator or drag files to GEDmatch. It's another thing to align and map genomes, run quality control, call variants, thin markers etc. etc. You'll run into issues very often no matter how well you follow instructions. Meaning you have to rely on your knowledge to work your way through them.”
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: I think you all are overestimating the intelligence of Lioness. It’s obvious she doesn’t understand the sometimes dissociative properties of Uniparental and autosomal DNA.
Evaluating Nubian Population Structure from Cranial Nonmetric Traits: Gene Flow, Genetic Drift, and Population History of the Nubian Nile Valle-Godde2018 Abstract Paleolithic archaeological and skeletal remains from the Nile Valley have yielded a complex picture of life along the river. Sociocultural and sociopolitical events during this timeframe shaped population structure, while gene flow and genetic drift further developed it. In this paper, we take a population genetics approach to modeling Nubian biological relationships in an effort to describe how an accumulation of events formed Nubian population structure. A variety of Nubian samples were utilized, spanning the Mesolithic-Christian time periods, and geographically, from just above the first through the third cataracts. Population genetics statistics were employed to estimate and depict biological affinities (Mahalanobis D2 with a tetrachoric matrix, principal coordinates analysis, Fst, and Relethford Blangero residuals) and supplemented by spatial-temporal modeling (Mantel tests and PROTESTs). Variation is high amongst these groups, indicating an intricate pattern of relationships in their population history where similar levels of gene flow probably stemmed from extensive cultural contact with Egypt and other populations in a variety of contexts. Genetic drift is also apparent in some of these sites, which is consistent with social and political histories of these groups. Traditional modeling of spatial-temporal patterning was not successful, which may be attributed to the non-linear, loose clustering of Nubian groups by site. Collectively, the archaeological, biological, and environmental evidence support the ideas of multiple populations living in Lower Nubia during the Paleolithic, and/or a new population entering the area and shaping Nubian population structure.
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1-1-2018 Evaluating Nubian Population Structure from Cranial Nonmetric Traits: Gene Flow, Genetic Drift, and Population History of the Nubian Nile Valley Kanya Godde Sociology/Anthropology, University of La Verne, La Verne, CA, kgodde@laverne.edu Richard L. Jantz Department of Anthropology, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, TN
Thus, taken in combination, the preponderance of evidence from archaeology (possibly more than one population in Nubia during the Late Paleolithic), climatic changes, the among group variation, the findings from Jebel Sahaba, and the continuity after the Late Paleolithic in population.relationships, support our third hypothesis and suggest multiple populations from the Late Paleolithic may be ancestral to modern Nubians or a new population moved into the area and became ancestral.
In this paper, the population structure of Nubians, as constructed from the skeletal record, was examined in relation to the environmental, archaeological, and mortuary evidence in order to interpret population genetics parameters in conjunction with the historic record. It was discovered that the samples mostly clustered by site, which in combination with the archaeological evidence of social isolation operating on some samples, balanced with their biological similarity to other samples that display evidence of extensive contact with different peoples, suggest that extraregional gene flow was probably punctuated with genetic drift, at least in three of the samples we examined. Our results also discount a population replacement happening during the range of time examined in this study.Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Evaluating Nubian Population Structure from Cranial Nonmetric Traits: Gene Flow, Genetic Drift, and Population History of the Nubian Nile Valle-Godde2018 Abstract Paleolithic archaeological and skeletal remains from the Nile Valley have yielded a complex picture of life along the river. Sociocultural and sociopolitical events during this timeframe shaped population structure, while gene flow and genetic drift further developed it. In this paper, we take a population genetics approach to modeling Nubian biological relationships in an effort to describe how an accumulation of events formed Nubian population structure. A variety of Nubian samples were utilized, spanning the Mesolithic-Christian time periods, and geographically, from just above the first through the third cataracts. Population genetics statistics were employed to estimate and depict biological affinities (Mahalanobis D2 with a tetrachoric matrix, principal coordinates analysis, Fst, and Relethford Blangero residuals) and supplemented by spatial-temporal modeling (Mantel tests and PROTESTs). Variation is high amongst these groups, indicating an intricate pattern of relationships in their population history where similar levels of gene flow probably stemmed from extensive cultural contact with Egypt and other populations in a variety of contexts. Genetic drift is also apparent in some of these sites, which is consistent with social and political histories of these groups. Traditional modeling of spatial-temporal patterning was not successful, which may be attributed to the non-linear, loose clustering of Nubian groups by site. Collectively, the archaeological, biological, and environmental evidence support the ideas of multiple populations living in Lower Nubia during the Paleolithic, and/or a new population entering the area and shaping Nubian population structure.
In other words they took various different groups in one part of the Nile Valley and called it "Nubian" even before Ancient Egypt even existed.
Note, no researcher ever talks of "French" population structure in the paleolithic. Just like no researcher talks of "Roman" or "British" population structure in such an ancient time period either.....
But somehow the "Nubians" are different.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Anthropologists generally group populations north of the Sahara as having a separate population history from those South of the Sahara. And almost all of these papers stick to that mode of thinking even when going back prior to OOA. It is purely a result of historical precedent in treating North Africa as different and separate from the rest of Africa.
I've always wondered what sense it made to talk about a "sub-Saharan" Africa before there was a Sahara desert.
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posted
"Predynastic Hierakonpolis crania have Eurasian affinity"
Let's flip it, since Northwest Africans migrated out of Africa.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Oshun: According to Irish:
quote:Approximately 160 sets of human skeletal remains were examined. Of these, 77 from sites HK6 (n=16), HK27 (n=1), and HK43 (n=60) were complete enough for detailed dental morphometric analyses. Amongst them, 14 possessed complete—or nearly complete—skulls, which allowed for further craniometric studies... Because this report is preliminary, statistical analyses have not yet been undertaken. However, based on a qualitative inspection of the dentitions, it appears that: 1) dental phenetic homogeneity was prevalent among the Hierakonpolis inhabitants; and 2) they exhibit dental traits that ally them with other post-Pleistocene populations in greater North Africa. Prior work shows North Africans have morphologically simple, mass-reduced teeth. This dental pat-tern was shown to be ubiquitous among samples, regardless of distance—from the Canary Islands to Egypt and Nubia— or time—from 8,000 year-old Capsians to recent Berbers in western North Africa. This pattern, termed the “North African Dental Trait Complex,” includes high frequencies of several traits such as an interruption groove on UI2, M3 agenesis, and rocker jaw, plus a low occurrence of LM2 Y-5 groove pattern. All of these features are also present in Europeans and West Asians to some degree, but are uncommon in sub-Saharan peoples. Craniometric indicators appear to support these results, and European-like discrete traits, such as alveolar orthognathism, dolichocephaly, rhomboid orbits, narrow nasal aperture, and nasal sill, are prevalent.
I thought that Keita said the crania of similar southern Egyptian sites was more tropical? Irish seems to be saying something else?
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: They are more tropical than Europeans and West Eurasians. Irish is emphasizing the difference to his SSA samples, but doesn't mention differences to his West Eurasian samples.
I would stay away from Irish and researchers like him until you have a firm foundation. They will only confuse you. Been there.
Indeed. As is typical of studies like this much is made of the similarities with West Eurasians but nothing is mentioned about the similarities with other (Sub-Saharan) Africans.
Mind you Irish's main point of study is in dental especially odontological non-metric traits of the teeth.
Irish divides Africans with Sub-Saharans having an "Afridonty" complex as he calls it while North Africans have a "West Eurasian-like" complex.
How a population scores on these groupings depends on the number of traits and how frequent they occur.
What's interesting is that Irish calls North Africans 'West Eurasian-like' and not totally West Eurasian primarily because of crown size. Sub-Saharans tend to have large mass additive crown sizes i.e. 'macrodonty' while North Africans have small mass reductive crown sizes i.e. 'microdonty' like West Eurasians.
However Irish also stated: Thus, I proposed (Irish, 1993b, 1998a) that the North African dental trait complex is one which parallels that of Europeans, yet displays higher frequencies of Bushman Canine, two-rooted UP1, three-rooted UM2, LM2 Y- groove, LM1 cusp 7, LP1 Tome's root, two-rooted LM2, and lower frequencies of UM1 enamel extension and peg/reduced or absent UM3. North Africans also exhibit a higher frequency of UM1 Carabelli's trait than sub-Saharan Africans or Europeans.
So North Africans parallel Europeans except they display a host of traits they share with Sub-Saharans including 'Bushman canine'. It's also implied that Carabelli's trait may have originated among North Africans.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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