DICTIONARY OF GREEK AND ROMAN GEOGRAPHY 1854 William Smith, L.L.D.
MAURETA´NIA MAURETA´NIA the NW. coast of Africa, now known as the Empire of Marocco, Fez, and part of Algeria, or the Mogh'rib-al-akza (furthest west) of the natives. I. Name, Limits, and Inhabitants.
This district, which was separated on the E. from Numidia, by the river Ampsaga, and on the S. from Gaetulia, by the snowy range of the Atlas, was washed upon the N. coast by the Mediterranean, and on the W. by the Atlantic. From the earliest times it was occupied by a people whom the ancients distinguished by the name MAURUSII (Μαυρούσιο, Strab. i. p.5, iii. pp. 131, 137, xvii. pp. 825, 827; Liv. 24.49; Verg. A. 4.206; Μαυρήνσιοι, Ptol. 4.1.11) or MAURI (Μαυροί, “Blacks,” in the Alexandrian dialect, Paus. i, 33 § 5, 8.43. [2.297] § 3; Sal. Jug. 19; Pomp. Mela, 1.4.3; Liv. 21.22, 28.17; Hor. Carm. 1.22. 2, 2.6. 3, 3.10. 18; Tac. Ann. 2.52, 4.523, 14.28, Hist. 1.78, 2.58, 4.50; Lucan 4.678; Juv. 5.53, 6.337; Flor. 3.1, 4.2); hence the name MAURETANIA (the proper form as it appears in inscriptions, Orelli, Inscr. 485, 3570, 3672; and on coins, Eckhel, vol. vi. p. 48; comp. Tzchucke, ad Pomp. Mela, 1.5.1) or MAURITANIA (Μαυριτανία, Ptol. 4.1.2; Caes. B.C. 1.6, 39; Hirt. B. Afr. 22; Pomp. Mela, 1.5; Plin. Nat. 5.1; Eutrop. 4.27, 8.5; Flor. iv. (the MSS. and printed editions vary between this form and that of Mauretania); ἡ Μαυρούσιων γῆ, Strab. p. 827). These Moors, who must not be considered as a different race from the Numidians, but as a tribe belonging to the same stock, were represented by Sallust (Sal. Jug. 21) as a remnant of the army of Hercules, and by Procopius (B. V. 2.10) as the posterity of the Cananaeans who fled from the robber (ληστής) Joshua; he quotes two columns with a Phoenician inscription. Procopius has been supposed to be the only, or at least the most ancient, author who mentions this inscription, and the invention of it has been attributed to himself; it occurs, however, in the history of Moses of Chorene (1.18), who wrote more than a century before Procopius. The same inscription is mentioned by Suidas (s. v. Χανάαν), who probably quotes from Procopius. According to most of the Arabian writers, who adopted a nearly similar tradition, the indigenous inhabitants of N. Africa were the people of Palestine, expelled by David, who passed into Africa under the guidance of Goliah, whom they call Djalout. (St. Martin, Le Beau, Bas Empire, vol. xi. p. 328; comp. Gibbon, c. xli.) These traditions, though so ...
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1874 - John Denison Baldwin - “We have seen, in another place, that the whole Asiatic region on the Mediterranean was anciently a part of Ethiopia or the Land of Cush and that Joppa (Iopia), one of the most ancient Phoenician cities, was the royal city of ‘Kepheus the Ethiopian.’ Among the notes to Hamilton and Falconer’s version of Strabo are the following: ‘We have before remarked that the Ethiopia visited by Menelaus was not the country above Egypt, but an Ethiopia lying aroung Jaffa, the ancient ‘Joppa’ Again: The name of Ethiopians, given by Ephorus to fugitive Canaanites, confirms what we have before stated, that the environs of Jaffa, and possibly the entire of Palestine, anciently bore the name of Ethiopia… The most ancient Greeks in their writings and traditions knew nothing of that name Phoenicians, but they did know and use such names as Ethiopians, Sidonians, and Aradians. Ethiopia was the term most commonly applied to the country afterwards called Phoenicia; and this term as an appellation to describe some of the communities and districts that were under Phoenician control, did not pass out of use until after the beginning of the Christian Era.” p. 133-134 Pre-Historic Nations or Inquiries Concerning Some of the Great Peoples and…
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1867 - “The first tribes that inhabited Egypt that is, the Nile Valley between the Syene cataracts and the sea, came from Abyssinia to Sennar. The ancient Egyptians belonged to a race quite similar to the Kennous or Barabras, present inhabitants of Nubia. In the Copts of Egypt we do not find any of the characteristic features of the ancient Egyptian population. The Copts are the result of crossbreeding with all the nations that have successively dominated Egypt. It is wrong to seek in them the principal features of the old race.” From letters published by Champollion-Figeac
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1809 - “The Egyptians, though healthy, large and robust were clumsy in their forms and course in their features. Like other African tribes they were woolly haired, flat-nosed and thick lipped, and if not absolutely black were very near it in color. From the Publication “ Specimens of Ancient Sculpture" Society of Dilettanti, Vol 1
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1881 “ A third body of the Cushites went to the north of the Egypt and founded, on the east of the Delta, the kingdom of the so-called Hyksos, whom tradition designated sometimes as Phoenicians sometimes as Arabians, and in both cases rightly…Lepsius has proved by excellent reasons the Cushite origins of the Hyksos statues from San (Tanis) now in the museum of Boulaq and has made more than merely probable the immigration of the Cushites into the region of the Delta…” p. 402 Heinrich Karl Brugsh in A History of Egypt Under the Pharaohs Derived Entirely from the Monuments, published by John Murray 1881, Vol 2, 2nd edition.
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
The hyksos were Syrians, that is not disputed.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
On the Kabyles of Numidian territory
1834 - eyewitness observer and Scotsman Thomas Campbell said the "Kabyles...dress like the Arabs and apart from a few tribes are brown complexioned and black haired" quoted from Barbary and Enlightenment: European Attitudes in the Maghreb in the 18th Century, by Ann Thomson, 1987, p. 109.
1890 – “The Kabyles or Kabaily of Algerian and Tunisian territories…besides tillage, work the mines contained in their mountains…They live in huts made of branches of trees and covered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old Numidians…They are of middle stature, their complexion brown and sometimes nearly black.” Found in The Encyclopedia Britannica: Dictionary of Arts, Sciences and General Literature Henry G. Allen Company p. 261 Volume I published 1890.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: The hyksos were Syrians, that is not disputed.
Yes we "Ethiopians" once lived in Syria too my friend, in fact that name came from us.
Glad to have you back! Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: The hyksos were Syrians, that is not disputed.
“The children of Ham possessed the land from Syria and Amanus, and the mountains of Libanus; seizing upon all that was on its sea-coasts, and as far as the ocean, and keeping it as their own. Some indeed of its names are utterly vanished away; others of them being changed, and another sound given them, are hardly to be discovered; yet a few there are which have kept their denominations entire. “ Josephus Antiquities of the Jews, Book I, Chapter 6
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
You are full of $.... Dana. It is ashame that a literate educcated person has to get involved with radical ideology and literally waste their lives.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: You are full of $.... Dana. It is ashame that a literate educcated person has to get involved with radical ideology and literally waste their lives.
ummm... if you say so. Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
yep
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
1901 - Guiseppe Sergi “Those who with Petrie and Sayce rely on testimony of the homophonies from Old Testamant, or from anthropological types revealed by Egyptian monuments consider them to be Hamites originating in South Arabia, where also they would seek the origin of the Egyptians …It is true that Egyptians have represented them a of a brick-red color like themselves, and like the Punites…” The Mediterranean Race: A Study of the Origin of European Peoples, pp. 154 -155
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: The hyksos were Syrians, that is not disputed.
Yes we "Ethiopians" once lived in Syria too my friend, in fact that name came from us.
Glad to have you back!
From Josephus Antiquities of the Jews Chapter 15 about the origin of the Trogodytes of Africa and Arabia comes this -
"The sons of Madiau were Ephas, and Ophren, and Anoch, and Ebidas, and Eldas. Now, for all these sons and grandsons, Abraham contrived to settle them in colonies; and they took possession of Troglodytis, and the country of Arabia the Happy, as far as it reaches to the Red Sea. It is related of this Ophren, that he made war against Libya, and took it, and that his grandchildren, when they inhabited it, called it (from his name) Africa. And indeed Alexander Polyhistor gives his attestation to what I here say; who speaks thus: 'Cleodemus the prophet, who was also called Malchus, who wrote a History of the Jews, in agreement with the History of Moses, their legislator, relates, that there were many sons born to Abraham by Keturah: nay, he names three of them, Apher, and Surim, and Japhran. That from Surim was the land of Assyria denominated; and that from the other two (Apher and Japbran) the country of Africa took its name, because these men were auxiliaries to Hercules, when he fought against Libya and Antaeus; and that Hercules married Aphra's daughter, and of her he begat a son, Diodorus; and that Sophon was his son, from whom that barbarous people called Sophacians were denominated."
Now if you area a U.S. Civil War historian and want to know who the Apher and Surim spoken of by Josephus and Cleodemus and others were, all you have to do is read a little up on the history tribes of the Roman provinces of ancient North Africa where you will find them as the historical people referred to as Pharusii or Ifuraces and as Ausuriani, Astacures, Turini, Astrikes and Saturiani ancestors of the modern Wasuri, Ifren or Iforas - clans of the Tuareg now living in Mali and other parts of the Sahel.
“But it is said how this Afren made an expedition upon Libya and took hold of it; and his grandsons having housed in it and called the land Africa after his name. And Alexander Polyhistor testifies to my word, saying thus: But Cleodemus the prophet, who is also Malchas, while recounting the history concerning the Jews, just as Moses their lawmaker has narrated it, says that Abraham bore plenty of sons from Chettura; and he also says what their names were, naming three of them: Afer, Assur, Afran, and that Assyria was called such after Assur, and that a city Afra and the country of Africa were named from the other two, Afra and Afer; and that these men joined Hercules in his expedition upon Libya and Antaeus; and that Hercules married the daughter of Afra and begat a son from her, Diodorus, and that Sophonas was born from him from whom the barbarian Sophae are called.” Eusebius Preparation 9:20
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
If you want to get laughed out of a history seminar present evidence like that Dana.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
On why the Tuareg (Imakitan or Ketama) claim descent from Amalek(Meluhha) and other Phoenicians.
Josephus calls the Amalekites "Phoenician shepherds.
1839 - “Cathim, the son of Madan an Amalekite, was famous throughout the world for the magnificent buildings erected by him. Some ascribe the pyramids to this king; he was the last Amalekite king of Egypt….” Synchronology, a Treatise on the History and Mythology of the by Charles Crosthwaite p. 234 published 1839
From Josephus, “Cethimus possessed the island Cethima: it is now called Cyprus; and from that it is that all islands, and the greatest part of the sea-coasts, are named Cethim by the Hebrews: and one city there is in Cyprus that has been able to preserve its denomination; it has been called Citius by those who use the language of the Greeks, and has not, by the use of that dialect, escaped the name of Cethim.” Josephus
1868 - “Our king according to the Arabs was Cathim who the successor of Darem, who was drowned in the Nile. He was a famous builder and preceeded the brothers of Kabus and Walid who reigned in the time of Moses…” p. 373 HHYXB Pharaoh’s Daughter: an Gancropologikal Drama by Edward Clibborn
1747 - “Cathim an Amalekite who was a magnificent prince and rendered himself famous by a variety of noble buildings, with which he adorned this country. Others alledge that this Riyan left no son, but a grandson, whose name was Kabus, who succeeded him and is said to have reigned in the time of Moses…” A universal History from the Earliest Account of Time Volume II by George Sale et al. p. 117 published in 1747.
Lest we forget, Zeno the philosopher a remnant of these "Phoenicians" in Citium is said to be “gaunt, very tall and black” with a twisted neck and called “Egyptian vine shoot” because of it.
The remnants of these people in Africa were the equally tall and black Ketama,(Uakutameni, Micateni now called Imaketan, name for the eastern branches of thetall and near black Tuareg, who still claim descent from the Phoenicians.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: If you want to get laughed out of a history seminar present evidence like that Dana.
Evidence of what - that early authors believed certain Africans to have once lived in Syria and Arabia.
That's all thats being proposed here, but someone of your logic who knows nothing but how to project their shortcomings onto others would never be able to understand that. Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
More folkhistory of the original Berbers (Tuareg, Shluh, etc.)who claim to be the Phoenicians, Philistines, Amalekites or Anakim of Canaan
“It seemed to me we had come into presence of a race of giants. I myself am no dwarf, topping six feet , but these men seemed to make me look small. Some were nearly 7 feet high…” From In Quest of Lost Worlds: Five Archeological Expeditions 1925-1934 on the Tuareg of Amen Okhal. P. 41 Count Byron Khun de Prorok
1835 “The Shellooh, it must be observed are a clans people and great genealogists. They call themselves, the descendants of Mazigh, son of Canaan, and consider their northern neighbours, the Brebber of Fez, as Philistines, descendants of Casluhim, son of Mizraim. Ibn Khaldun says of the Berbers in general that they are descended from Ham, like the ancient Egyptians. “ p. 263 Penny Cyclopaedia of the Society for the Diffusion of Useful Knowledge.
Contining... “The name of Philistines is sometimes applied to the Berbers themselves by the Shellooh, who consider them as Philistines, descendants of Casluhim son of Mitzraim and as having immigrated into the country in the time of Goliath, long after themselves. “ p. 264 from Penny Cyclopaedia of the Society for the Diffusion of Useful ..., Volumes 3-4 By Society for the Diffusion of Useful Knowledge
1835 - p. 262 of The Penny Cyclopaedia of the Society for the Diffusion of Useful Knowledge Volume 4 says, “Tradition among themselves, as well as the accounts of the Arabian writers who have written concerning them, seem to point to the land of Canaan as the country they came from. Ahmed el Fasi, in his Ketab el Giammar, says that the Berbers are a colony of Philistines who took refuge in Africa after David had killed Gialout or Goliath (Herbelot, art. Gialout). Others say that they are the descendants of the Canaanites and Amalekites driven from Palestine by Joshua. “
Ibn Khaldun, mentioned above an Andalusian Muslim born in Tunis, North Africa in the 14th century speaking on Berber origins while propogating the Western myth about how Ham became black wrote wrote: “Ham, having become black because of a curse pronounced against him by his father, fled to the Maghrib to hide in shame.... Berber, son of Kesloudjim [Casluhim], one of his descendants, left numerous posterity in the Maghrib." - “Ibn Khaldun, [I]Histoire I, 177–178.
"Casluhim, from whence came the Philistines" Genesis 10:14 and 1Chronicles 1:2 of the Hebrew Bible.
1914 - James Orr, “ The Amalekites migrated into Egypt and southern Pal. The Pharoahs of the time of Abraham, Joseph and Moses are represented to have been Amalekites. Finally, broken up by Josh, they fled into northern Africa, where they are said to have grown into the Berber races...” The International Standard Bible Enclopaedia.
Orr adds elsewhere, “Of the extinct tribes the most familiar name is that of Amlak or Amlik (Amalek). By the Arabian genealogists he is variously described as a grandson of Shem and as a son of Ham. In Gen 36 12 he is a son of Esau’s son, Eliphaz, by Timna…In the time of Abraham they were expelled from Mecca on the arrival of two new tribes from the S., those of Jurhum and Katura (Gen 25 1). …According to another tradition Moses sent an expedition against the Amalekites in the Hijaz on which occasion the Israelites, disobeying his orders, spared their king Arkam (cf Rekem, Nu 31 8; Josh 13 21) – a reminiscence of the incident in the life of Saul (1 S 15). "
“Popular Jewish tradition saw in the Berber tribes descendants of the Philistines, who had to flee to North Africa because of the annihilating defeats inflicted on them by king David and his commander and chief Joab.” Maimonides: A Biography – p. 13 by Joachim Neugroschell Macmillan 1982.
“Certain African histories describe Goliath, a Philistine, as ‘Goliath the Berber’ because many of these tribes claim descent from Jalut (the Goliath of the Bible)Tribe and Society in Rural Morocco.” David M. Hart, 2000.
“The voyager Ibn Idrisi mentioned that they came from Palestine and were descended from Qays the grandson of Mudar. This Ber was the ancestor of Goliath ibn Daris ibn Jana ibn Lowwa ibn Ber. “
1912 - “To what stock the Berber are ultimately attributable is uncertain and need not detain us here. Suffice it to say that ancient traditions generally held that the Berber were a Hamitic race from Syria and connected with the Philistines, and it was held by a majority of writers that certain of the Berber tribes were once Yemenite settlers round Marib.” The Tribes of Northern and Central Kordofan, by H.A. MacMichael Cambridge 1912
“There were none of the Anakim left in the land of the children of Israel. Only in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod, did some remain.” Biblical book of Joshua 11:22
The name for Tuareg or modern Berber chiefs Galidi, Aguellid, Okal and the name of Gildo of anicient Mauretania was not improbably related etymologically to the name Goliath or Jalut.
The names of the Mazurah or Imazuragh (Misrah) Tuareg, Ihaggaren (Hagar), and many other clan names are those from which are derived the names of the Canaanites/Midianites (or children of Hagar/Keturah), etc. of the Bible. However, as Kamal Salibi rightly adduced in, The Bible Came from Arabia, the Canaan refered to is the area between Yemen and Mecca and not the later Palestine. So when the Tuareg or darker-skinned Berbers say they are descendants of Sabaeans and at the same time Amalekites, Phoenicians or Philistines "a remnant of the Anakim" they speak of the cities or towns of the Philistines still found in that area and not in the modern Syria/Palestine where they also settled after a time but where most of these Biblical towns have never existed.
10th century - “the first people to inhabit North Africa were five colonies of Sabaeans under Ibn Ifriki, King of Yaman which gave birth to 600 tribes of Berbers” Ibn Rakik cited in MacMichael Vol I A History of the Arabs of Sudan.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
1877 - "Rappelons enfins que les isles de Samothrace, Lemnos and Lesbos se seraient appelees plus anciennement Ethiopie", Louis Benloew in La Grece Avant Les Grecs: Etudes Linguistique et Ethnographique: Pelasges, Leleges, Semites & Ioniens, pp. 137-138
On Lydia and Euboea "Ces endroits portait le nom de (Aitopia) ou (Aitiopia)." p. 136.
The author names other ancient localities of the Aegean and Mediterranean that were at one time called Ethiopia, including Boetia and Cilicia.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
1859 - Moor, subst. (blackamoor), Aethiops;female m., Aethiopissa; tawny m. Maurus... A Latin-English and English Latin Dictionary: For the Use of Schools by Charles Anthon et al. p. 1151
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
Historians do not agree with you Dana.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
1883 - A.Sayce - Speaking of certain remains of Cappodocia which he interprets (wrongly) to be Hittite says, "They must be the White Syrians of Strabo whom the Greek geographer contrasts with the black Syrians of semitic Aram" from Ancient Empires of the East Herodotus I-III. p. 42
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Historians do not agree with you Dana.
I am not making these statements so they don't have to agree with me. I am quoting Europeans that were interested in history and not wishful thinking.
I am not the one to be agreed with. I am sorry that you are not interested in this history coming out, and that your pride is being hurt.
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
You have to be a highly trained specialist to deal with Herodotus. read what modern classical scholars say about him, you'll come away with a different view.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Historians do not agree with you Dana.
I am not making these statements so they don't have to agree with me. I am quoting Europeans that were interested in history and not wishful thinking.
I am not the one to be agreed with. I am sorry that you are not interested in this history coming out, and that your pride is being hurt.
"According to Simonet and his study of the language spoken by the Mozarabes (Christian Spaniards under Muslim rule before 1492) mauro meant negro and corresponded to its Castillian usage in which moro was applied to horses whose color was negro ... An Irish Gaelic saga of the 900s (copied in 1643) states that Danish Irish raiders attacked Spain and Mauritania in the 800s. 'From the latter place they carried off a great host of them to Erin and these are the blue men of Erin for Mauri is the same as black man and Mauritania is the same a blackness...Long indeed were these blue men in Erin'. The Gaelic text uses Mauri and Negri and mauritania and nigritudo, obviously borrowed from Latin..." from the book, Africans and Native Americans: The Language of Race and the Evolution of Red-Black peoples, Jack D. Forbes, 1993 pp. 67-68.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: You have to be a highly trained specialist to deal with Herodotus. read what modern classical scholars say about him, you'll come away with a different view.
I've not referenced Herodotus here, or for that matter anywhere on this blog as far as I can remember. And he is of course just one of dozens of ancient writers one can reference and that have been cited by hundreds of 19th century Europeans specialists in history.
I know all ancient Greeks might have looked alike to you, but Strabo isn't Herodotus and I certainly didn't quote from either of them.
I also know Herodotus is the only ancient historian you think "radical Afrocentrics" know about, unfortunately I'm not an Afrocentric - maybe radical - but not Afrocentric.
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
Again dana, you are giving the typical old afrocentric view points that we hear all the time. Classical scholars overwhelmingly reject them. If you listen to quacks like old Dr Ben you can easily buy into all this nonsense.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Again dana, you are giving the typical old afrocentric view points that we hear all the time. Classical scholars overwhelmingly reject them. If you listen to quacks like old Dr Ben you can easily buy into all this nonsense.
Whats the matter you don't like all of the classical scholars I've quoted here? Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
yeah from 1776 ???????
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
"The Moors have bodies black as night, while the skin of the Gauls is white." quoted from St. Isidore of Seville, Book XIX.xxiii.7 found in The Etymologies of Isidore of Seville, translation Stephen A Barney, Cambridge University Press, 2006
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
what did they mean by black Dana? Medieval people also called arabs black/dark skinned. You are getting into deep and complicated history and wanting to take this stuff at face value. For example, we know for a fact that most Moors were not negroid at all. The term Moor is a term that evolved to fit almost everyone who was not a jew or a blue eyed Spainiard.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: what did they mean by black Dana? Medieval people also called arabs black/dark skinned. You are getting into deep and complicated history and wanting to take this stuff at face value. For example, we know for a fact that most Moors were not negroid at all. The term Moor is a term that evolved to fit almost everyone who was not a jew or a blue eyed Spainiard.
Is this your in your ignorant opinion. You must not be very familiar with how Arabs looked or look for that matter.
Apparently people in El Salvador and other Spanish-speaking places in South America and Greece and Italy and northern Europe never got the news that Moro, Mauri or Moor "evolved to fit almost everyone who was not a jew or a blue eyed Spaniard."
Stormfront and the Mathilda sites are not the place for someone touting themselves as a historian to be.
Trollin... Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: what did they mean by black Dana? Medieval people also called arabs black/dark skinned. You are getting into deep and complicated history and wanting to take this stuff at face value. For example, we know for a fact that most Moors were not negroid at all. The term Moor is a term that evolved to fit almost everyone who was not a jew or a blue eyed Spainiard.
Furthermore - I guess the Gauls weren't white either.
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
Never been to those places but I can assure you that they could not be more racist than most of the blacks on this site. Modern black people are the most racist people in the world and they have a huge chip on their shoulder as well.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
“The Moors of the host wore silks and colourful clothes which they had taken as booty… their horses’ reins were like fire, their faces as black as pitch, the handsomest among them was black as a cooking pot and their eyes blazed like fire; their horses as swift as leopards, their horsemen more cruel than the wolf that comes to a sheepfold in the night…Oh luckless Spain!” description of the Moors written in the 1200s A.D. cited in Colin Smith’s, Christians and Moors in Spain vol. 1 2nd edition 1988, p. 97.
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
and? so you think that proves they were negroids? We know that is not the case Dana.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Here is some more "deep, complicated" history from a 13th century observer:
Circa 1200s A.D. -“The Moors of the host wore silks and colourful clothes which they had taken as booty… their horses’ reigns were like fire, their faces as black as pitch, the handsomest among them was black as a cooking pot and their eyes blazed like fire; their horses as swift as leopards, their horsemen more cruel than the wolf that comes to a sheepfold in the night…Oh luckless Spain!” cited in Colin Smith’s, Christians and Moors in Spain vol. 1 2nd edition 1988, p. 97.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: and? so you think that proves they were negroids? We know that is not the case Dana.
What is this with you people and "Negroids" - Hammer? My God - What did your parents tell you about Negroids growing up down there in Texas? I shudder to think my ancestors had to go through h_ _ _ or should I acknowledge be thrown into wells and the electric chair by people related to yours for nothing. Even when most of them didn't look "Negroid".
First of all I never said a thing about a "Negroid". Second of all when you have so many people of originally non-Arab origin like fair-skinned Iraqis, white Syrians, Turks, Iranians and other individuals describing real Arabs as a people with jet black to dark brown skin who originally held fair skin in utter contempt, I don't know why you would be so satisified just to hear someone like me say they were black "but not 'NEGROIDS'".
Nevertheless, I will not be able to satisfy your Negrophobic longing - there are plenty of early descriptions of pure Arabs mentioned by people already on this blog which talk about Arabs - whether huge or short and thin and small as having "flat noses", "red eyes" and loin cloths hanging halfway down their leg(hmmm -I wonder why). And this is what you and I and especially you here in the good old U.S. of America call the NEGRO . If you don't believe me or other "Afronuts" why don't you learn Arabic and stop feigning like you know what an Arab looked like when they left Arabia and entered Spain.
Better yet - maybe you better take a trip to Arabia to see the many indigenes there.
I am sorry that it hurts so much for people like you and your kind to learn that people you consider so simian in affiliation and worthy of nothing but cotton-picking should have once been so powerful in this world. But history in truth can not be changed.
"Negroids" are not all that bad Hammer or shall I call you "Hypocrite". Negrophobes are though! Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
Dana, I am not going to argue anymore nonsense with you. You have the ability to read and understand history but YOU have to decide to do it.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Dana, I am not going to argue anymore nonsense with you. You have the ability to read and understand history but YOU have to decide to do it.
Thanks again Hammer but someone with no sense shouldn't be giving advice about nonsense. Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Woohf ! Now as I was saying before the Lord of the Negrophobics added his no sense.
776A.D. - “…all the peoples settled in the Harra besides the Banu Sulaym are black. These tribes take slaves from among the Eshban to mind their flocks and for irrigation work, manual labor, and domestic service, and their wives from among the Byzantines...” Al Jahiz of Iraq born 776 A.D. on the tribes of the region of Northwestern Arabia found in Al-Fakhar al-Sudan min al-Abyadh
Most people neglect the part where it says all of the tribes of the Harrah (in northwest Saudi Arabia). This actually refers mostly to numerous clans of the Sulaym and Hawazin bin Mansur or Qays Ailan. The reason they are pointed out as being black is because they were extremely black and not just dark brown like many of the Hejaz or most modern inhabitants of northern Sudan. Jahiz points out elsewhere that they are black like the lava of the Harrah.
It is also an error mistake to refer to Jahiz as a Zanj writer as he supposedly only had a Zanj grandfather or greatgrandfather which probably wasn't uncommon in his time among Iraqis.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Dana, I am not going to argue anymore nonsense with you.
As if this was an "argument". You were in fact being schooled as usual red neck.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Never been to those places but I can assure you that they could not be more racist than most of the blacks on this site. Modern black people are the most racist people in the world and they have a huge chip on their shoulder as well.
Oh - I'd have to agree with the chip on the shoulder part, but I don't see many "bigots" on this site although- yes there are a lot in America, who unfortunately can hardly afford to be anything else - especially those living down where you are.
But I really can't believe that you had the audacity to bring up the word racist. Trollin' and projecting must be two peas in the same pod.
Lord Hammer - are you there?
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle:
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Dana, I am not going to argue anymore nonsense with you.
As if this was an "argument". You were in fact being schooled as usual red neck.
Hi Bogle - I want to say I really don't think we should scare people like Hammer away. They are the really scary ones. I personally am wondering if he is for real and what kind of psyche or psychosis we are dealing with here among his kind in America. Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
Dana, the civil rights issue made a trun in the late sixties. After all the legislation passed under LBJ and Nixon the debate switched from rights to outcomes. Most white American had changed their views by 1965 and supported the "rights" legislation. After 1968 the issue bacame "outcomes" and on this issue even moderate americans who had supported the rights legislation were much less suportive of outcomes. There is very little overt racism left in the mainstream white community. Most seldom think about black people at all one way or the other.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Oh well I guess our Civil War hypocritian has gone with the wind.
Some 19th Century Physical Descriptions of the Rebia tribes of the Qays ibn Ailan and of the tribes of the Tayyi and Azd.
1881 - G. Rawlinson wrote, “The Cha’ab Arabs, the present possessors of the more southern parts of Babylonia are nearly black and the ‘black Syrians’ of whom Strabo speaks seem to represent the Babylonians.” From The Five Great Monarchies of the Ancient Eastern World: Or, The History, Geography, and Antiquites of Chaldœa, Assyria, Babylon, Media, and Persia, Vol. II
Elsewhere, Rawlinson refers to the Ka’b or Cha'b of the Banu Amir and their sub-tribe of Montefik (or the al-Muntafiq bin Uqayl bin Ka’b bin Rabi'a) as having the complexion of “Abyssinians” and “Galla” Ethiopians. from Vol. 1 of The Seven Great Monarchies of the Ancient World: Or, The History, Geography, and Antiquities of Chaldea, Assyria, Babylon, Media, Persia, Parthia and Sassanian aor new Persian Empire. , Vol. 1 (07) p.35.
The Ka'b bin Rabi'a (part of the Banu Amir bin Sa’Sa’ah of the Hawazin) were domiciled in Iran (Khuzestan) in the 19th century. The Iranians called the Ka’ab (Ka'b or Cha’ab), “Tsiab”. While it has also been written Chub or Qub. The Kilab and Montefiq bin Uqayl also belong the Ka'b and are closely related to the Khafaja and Afik and Numayr ibn Kassit. The Ka'b have another clan among them called Khazraj.
In 1885, the British Surgeon General Edward Balfour put out the Encyclopedia of India and of Eastern and Southern Asia, which in copying Rawlinson speaks of the Ka'b as a “tall, martial race, strong limbed and muscular” well known for their pirate exploits in the Persian Gulf. They still occupy in this time “the lower part of Mesopotamia”.
1894 – Another adventurer describes the Arab inhabitants of Khuzestan, “The faces and limbs of these Arabs were almost black from constant exposure to the sun. They were nearly naked and their hair was plaited in long tresses shining with grease…” p. 85 of Henry Layard’s, Early Adventures in Persia, Susiana and Babylonia, published 2003 - first publishing 1894. The Muntafiqbin Uqayl “a subdivision of the Khaza’il” were called “the most powerful tribe in southern Babylonia” see in E.J. Brills First Encyclopaedia of Islam 1913 – 1936 ) by M. Th. Houtsma. The Khafaja, a branch of the Muntafik commanded the road from Basra to Kufa in Mesopotamia (Iraq) as late as the the 19th century.
The Khaza’il inhabitants of the town of Lamlun are also described both as "resembling" the Bishariin who live in Nubia and Sudan and as “Melanian” by Lenormant. (See also Richard Francis Burton The Book of the Sword republication in 2006, fn. on p. 143.
1878 - According to Francois Lenormant in, La Magie Chez les Chaldaens, “Part of the marshy region around the Persian Gulf was inhabited by people who were nearly black. A remnant of these are yet extant in the Lamlun whom the French traveler, Texier has described and who are allied …to the Bisharis…” p. 518-519.
(Some genealogists consider the Khaza'il and Banu Lam tribes of Tayyi origin who came much earlier than the Qays into the region from Yemen.)
The other tribes of markedly black Arabs still stretching from the Nejd or Central Arabia to the Persian Gulf were the Dawasir whose ancestors are the Azd and whose descendants were the Taghlib bin Wa'il the brethren of Bakr bin Wail tribes (Banu Shayban, Hanifah, Numayr ibn Qassit).
1844 -- Charles Forster - “The marked distinctiveness of the Dowaser Arabs” says “this striking difference in height and color from the surrounding tribes is not confined to the Dowaser. The phenomenon reappears among the Arabs of the Persian Gulf …"
1829 - “The Dowaser are said to be very tall men, and almost black. In former times they used to sell at Mekka ostrich feathers to the northern pilgrims, and many pedlars of Mekka came here in winter to exchange cotton stuffs for those feathers.” See John Lewis Burkhardt, Travels in Arabia. Vol. 1.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Dana, the civil rights issue made a trun in the late sixties. After all the legislation passed under LBJ and Nixon the debate switched from rights to outcomes. Most white American had changed their views by 1965 and supported the "rights" legislation. After 1968 the issue bacame "outcomes" and on this issue even moderate americans who had supported the rights legislation were much less suportive of outcomes. There is very little overt racism left in the mainstream white community. Most seldom think about black people at all one way or the other.
Oh goodie - ur back - and for the first time I agree. Most of the prejudice is unconscious - like yours for example. Posted by Egyptmaingate (Member # 17198) on :
Wow - I must really still be brainwashed as i didn't know they had American looking housing developments in Egypt. I appreciate the info but would also like to stay on topic.
Nevertheless, I'll forward your info to my ex-husband in real estate in New York City and considering moving back to Kabylia and Algiers.
Good luck! Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE "ETHIOPIANS" OF COASTAL NORTH AFRICA SPREAD TO DARIS MENTIONED BY STRABO AND EUPHORAS, i.e. Mauri?
A 19th c. reference to the Aulimmeden (Lamtuna/Lamta/Kelowi Tuareg groups) of Niger:
1896 - "The name of Aurighia is indeed given to one of the principal dialects of the Tamashek language, and from the Aouragh Ibn Khaldun, traces the great Berber divisions of Sanhadja and Lamta. This powerful race anciently inhabited the sea coast, and may have given their name to the country around Carthage... Nachtigal tells us that the Kelowi of Air...belong at least so far as the noble part of them is concerned to the Auragha and hence their dialect is called Auraghey even at the present day. In the days of Abu-Obeid el Bekri(Description de L'Afrique Septentrionale, ed. Slane, pp. 13,44) the Auraghas inhabited the shores of the Gulf of Syrtis and the districts of Kabes and Barca." found in Vol 1, The History and Description of Africa: And the Notable Things Therein Contained - authored by Leo Africanus Published by the Hakluyt Society of London, translation by John Pory, 1896, p. 193.
Of course, the Tuareg if we are to believe African manuscripts of Bornu mixed "with Turks and Tartars" among other peoples, before settling in Sahel.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
On 19th c. Gypsies in Paris
1899 - "...the men were very black, with their hair frizzled, the women were the most ugly and the blackest that were ever seen...there were witches among them who looked into people's hands and told what had happened to them..." from Gypsy Folk Tales by Francis Hindes Groome, first published in 1899.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Another account of early Gypsies before they mixed with with Spaniards
1888 - "They likewise call themselves 'Cales,' by which appellation indeed they are tolerably well known by the Spaniards, and which is merely the plural termination of the compound word Zincalo, and signifies, the black men... On the 17th of April 1427, appeared in Paris 12 penitents of Egypt, driven from thence by the Saracens; they brought in their company one hundred and twenty persons…They had their ears pierced their hair was black and crispy, and their women … were sorceresses who told fortunes. Such were the people who, after traversing France and scaling the sides of the Pyrenees, poured down in various bands upon the sunburnt plains of Spain.”
From - The Zincali- An Account of the Gypsies of Spain by George Borrow, Scribner and Welford, 1888, p. 30.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
1840 - “She was living with Lillas Pastia, an old fried- fish seller, a gipsy, as black as a Moor, to whose house a great many civilians resorted to eat fritata, especially, I think, because Carmen had taken up her quarters there.” from Prosper Merimee's, Carmen.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
14th century account of "Gypsies" in Germany
1497 - "we went to the outskirts where dwell many poor black naked people in little houses roofed with reeds some three hundred households, they are called Gypsies [Suyginer]: we call them heathens from Egypt when they travel in these lands." Cited in and quoted directly from, The Gypsies by Angus Fraser, 1995.
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
So a person who was living in 1840 was commenting on how black a Moor was even though Moors of all colors were run out of the country in 1482. Must have been a very old person. Dana, this kind of stuff is worthless and proves nothing. YOu need to take a graduate history class and learn how to use research.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Ugh - - Hammer can you for once make a comment worth responding to, instead of trying to wish away all of the black and crispy haired people that ever lived in Europe who were defined as Moors at one time or another.
First of all my history classes in graduate school prepared me to write and think fine and logically - which is more than can I can say for you.
Second of all. How did a "Moorish Gypsy" in James Micheners book, IBERIA, wind up in a photo black as a sub-Saharan if these people never existed.
Like I said previously Eurocentrics can not wish away what was.
Third, the term Moor was used for "black men" according to even many modern historians by the Christians in Spain and the former were hardly all run out of the Iberian peninsula - or else would not have appeared later in Japanese paintings black and bearded as ever with the white Portuguese on ships.
Finally, I'm not "using research" on this blog just citing 19th century references to black people.
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
You did not pass a graduate class in history Dana.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: You did not pass a graduate class in history Dana.
Oh - you got me Hammer. I also never went to the University of Chicago and Columbia for graduate school.
Keep Eurocentric wishful thinking alive! Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
No you did not. I do not believe it. You cut and paste quotes with no context and no opposing views. You could not pass a graduate course at Angelo State with that kind of historical research.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: No you did not. I do not believe it. You cut and paste quotes with no context and no opposing views. You could not pass a graduate course at Angelo State with that kind of historical research.
What am I suppose to oppose Hammer. What historical research are you talking about. You see how you project yourself onto others. Isn't that up to you to analyse what they are saying since that is your need - or don't people with history certificates do that.
Hammer I think you need to get a life and a lot more than a certificate. Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
well Dana. If nothing else you have to show context. For example, your view on Ancient Greek historians is way off of the position accepted by today's classical scholars. If you use those quotes then you need to show us why 100% of current classical greek scholars are wrong and you are right. It seems to me that you are doing the very same thing the guys here on the board do. You have a preconcieved position and then look for anything you can find to back it up. Lawyers do that, politicans do it, historians do not.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: well Dana. If nothing else you have to show context. For example, your view on Ancient Greek historians is way off of the position accepted by today's classical scholars. If you use those quotes then you need to show us why 100% of current classical greek scholars are wrong and you are right. It seems to me that you are doing the very same thing the guys here on the board do. You have a preconcieved position and then look for anything you can find to back it up. Lawyers do that, politicans do it, historians do not.
When you show me you can read in context Hammer maybe I'll think about presenting a view about ancient Greek scholars. Until then, which I think won't be anytime soon I guess, I'll have to say again say something that I can respond to and STOP PROJECTING!
Gosh - ur making me think there really was something to the work of Frances Cress Welsing or whatever her name is. I'm sure you know more about her than I do - like you do about "Dr. Ben".
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
Dana, When you are trying to make a point about Greek history you have to tell us what current greek scholars are saying about the question, that is the way it is done. In fact, you need to look at the body of work that is out there on that particular question and present the argunments , if any, between the historians. If I call the history department at the University of Chicago and Columbia and ask if they are teaching their students to cut and paste one hundred and fifty year old quotes with no context you know full well the answer they are going to give me.
Posted by Narmer Menes (Member # 16122) on :
Hammer aka TAP aka Professor Troll or whatever you call yourself now, can you just pipe down you illiterate, uneducated twat! Grown folk are discussing matters that are clearly beyond your comprehension. There has not been one subject that you have EVER contributed qualitatively to, so the evidence suggests that you are just a serial troll with no other purpose to disrupt. Moderators, surely you can block or ban this buffoon!
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Dana, When you are trying to make a point about Greek history you have to tell us what current greek scholars are saying about the question, that is the way it is done. In fact, you need to look at the body of work that is out there on that particular question and present the argunments , if any, between the historians. If I call the history department at the University of Chicago and Columbia and ask if they are teaching their students to cut and paste one hundred and fifty year old quotes with no context you know full well the answer they are going to give me.
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
Narmer, You are obviously a kid with no understanding. The only stupid thing that I do is stay on this forum and argue with a group of black radical nit wits. Now, you will either follow my advice and have some input into the academic world or you will not and have none, it is as simple as that.
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
The process of learning and understanding the background and growth of a chosen field of study or profession can offer insight into organizational culture, current trends, and future possibilities. The historical method of research applies to all fields of study because it encompasses their: origins, growth, theories, personalities, crisis, etc. Both quantitative and qualitative variables can be used in the collection of historical information. Once the decision is made to conduct historical research, there are steps that should be followed to achieve a reliable result. Charles Busha and Stephen Harter detail six steps for conducting historical research (91):
the recognition of a historical problem or the identification of a need for certain historical knowledge. the gathering of as much relevant information about the problem or topic as possible. if appropriate, the forming of hypothesis that tentatively explain relationships between historical factors. The rigorous collection and organization of evidence, and the verification of the authenticity and veracity of information and its sources. The selection, organization, and analysis of the most pertinent collected evidence, and the drawing of conclusions; and the recording of conclusions in a meaningful narrative. In the field of library and information science, there are a vast array of topics that may be considered for conducting historical research. For example, a researcher may chose to answer questions about the development of school, academic or public libraries, the rise of technology and the benefits/ problems it brings, the development of preservation methods, famous personalities in the field, library statistics, or geographical demographics and how they effect library distribution. Harter and Busha define library history as “the systematic recounting of past events pertaining to the establishment, maintenance, and utilization of systematically arranged collections of recorded information or knowledge….A biography of a person who has in some way affected the development of libraries, library science, or librarianship is also considered to be library history. (93)”
There are a variety of places to obtain historical information. Primary Sources are the most sought after in historical research. Primary resources are first hand accounts of information. “Finding and assessing primary historical data is an exercise in detective work. It involves logic, intuition, persistence, and common sense…(Tuchman, Gaye in Strategies of Qualitative Inquiry, 252). Some examples of primary documents are: personal diaries, eyewitness accounts of events, and oral histories. “Secondary sources of information are records or accounts prepared by someone other than the person, or persons, who participated in or observed an event.” Secondary resources can be very useful in giving a researcher a grasp on a subject and may provided extensive bibliographic information for delving further into a research topic.
In any type of historical research, there are issues to consider. Harter and Busha list three principles to consider when conducting historical research (99-100):
Consider the slant or biases of the information you are working with and the ones possessed by the historians themselves. This is particularly true of qualitative research. Consider an example provided by Gaye Tuchman: Let us assume that women’s letters and diaries are pertinent to ones research question and that one can locate pertinent examples. One cannot simply read them….one must read enough examples to infer the norms of what could be written and how it could be expressed. For instance, in the early nineteenth century, some (primarily female) schoolteachers instructed girls in journal writing and read their journals to do so. How would such instruction have influenced the journals kept by these girls as adults?…it is useful to view the nineteenth-century journal writer as an informant. Just as one tries to understand how a contemporary informant speaks from specific social location, so too one would want to establish the social location of the historical figure. One might ask of these and other diaries: What is the characteristic of middle-class female diary writers? What is the characteristic of this informant? How should one view what this informant writes?
b. Quantitative facts may also be biased in the types of statistical data collected or in how that information was interpreted by the researcher.
There are many factors that can contribute to “historical episodes”. Evidence should not be examined from a singular point of view. The resources that follow this brief introduction to the historical method in research provide resources for further in-depth explanations about this research method in various fields of study, and abstracts of studies conducted using this method.
Sources Cited: 1. Busha, Charles and Stephen P. Harter. Research Methods in Librarianship: techniques and Interpretations. Academic Press: New York, NY, 1980.
2. Denzin, Norman K. and Yvonna S. Lincoln (editors). Strategies of Qualitative Inquiry. Sage Publications: London, 1998.
top | home Links: Studies: http://www.ucr.edu/methods/ “Historical Methods reaches an international audience of historians and other social scientists concerned with historical problems. It explores interdisciplinary approaches to new data sources, new approaches to older questions and material, and practical discussions of computer and statistical methodology, data collection, and sampling procedures. In addition to its long-time interest in quantitative approaches to historical questions, Historical Methods also emphasizes a variety of other issues, such as methods for interpreting visual information and the rhetoric of social scientific history.” This website gives bibliographic information and abstracts to historical research included in the journals. Currently the most recent journal entries are from 1998. http://bubl.ac.uk/journals/lis/kn/lac/v32n0297.htm Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: Hammer aka TAP aka Professor Troll or whatever you call yourself now, can you just pipe down you illiterate, uneducated twat! Grown folk are discussing matters that are clearly beyond your comprehension. There has not been one subject that you have EVER contributed qualitatively to, so the evidence suggests that you are just a serial troll with no other purpose to disrupt. Moderators, surely you can block or ban this buffoon!
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Dana, When you are trying to make a point about Greek history you have to tell us what current greek scholars are saying about the question, that is the way it is done. In fact, you need to look at the body of work that is out there on that particular question and present the argunments , if any, between the historians. If I call the history department at the University of Chicago and Columbia and ask if they are teaching their students to cut and paste one hundred and fifty year old quotes with no context you know full well the answer they are going to give me.
Narmer - I had before questioned what people on this blog had said about this Texan, but now I think he is more than worthy of what you all have been saying. I need to stop giving people the benefit of the doubt.
Do you know that I invited him on this blog and this guy actually went and quoted virtually an entire web-page from a University of Texas page quoting directly from the director of the Jamaican Economic Institute, one of our (as Hammer calls us)"Negroid" kind, without citing him.
Peter W. Jones is a Jamaican scholar who wrote -The Dialects of Jamaican Economic Thought: Postmodernists vs. Modernists
If anyone puts in the paragraph below WITHOUT QUOTES which Hammer cut and pasted onto this page WITHOUT QUOTES he will find where the original quote came from.
"In the field of library and information science, there are a vast array of topics that may be considered for conducting historical research. For example, a researcher may chose to answer questions about the development of school, academic or public libraries, the rise of technology and the benefits/ problems it "
Hammer were you trying to make us think you were a thinker or history teacher and not a criminal who should be fined or worse.
If so, this is not the not the way to do it. And this time it is no laughing matter - especially if you really are a TEACHER here in the U.S.!
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: The Historical Approach to Research
Which you have neither the wherewithal nor the integrity to contribute to!
Pretender - Do not quote us "Negroids" without giving credit where credit is due as you did above or I will send what you have done directly to them and have you banned from academics for life.
Also, please take a "White Studies" course now being offered in Teacher Education programs here in the U.S. for "white" people who don't know how to deal with the Other. Seriously!
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
Dana, You have finally just lost your mind. You know I am right about this stuff.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
And - in case you hadn't noticed Hammer or criminal or troll or whatever you are. I wasn't trying to make a point about "Greek history". Most of us on this blog are not interested in "Greek history", just our history and why its been "whitewashed".
Now that I have learned you are wasting space and are perhaps even some kind of sociopath who didn't graduate high school I will not be spending time responding to you as I don't have a psychotherapy license or training to deal with your type.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Dana, You have finally just lost your mind. You know I am right about this stuff.
"I have finally lost my mind."?! No - but I am definitely going to lose it dealing with someone who is plum crazy and trying to pretend they are the "professorial" type.
And if you need Paul W. Jones's email to apologize about the totally plagiarized "stuff" you were right about - just let me know. I have his email address. I will also send you the address of a good therapist in Texas.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Dana, You have finally just lost your mind. You know I am right about this stuff.
What I do know is that anyone with an undergraduate degree in History such as the one I obtained long ago, understands that plagiarism is a serious offense. And I don't deal with criminals so - bye!
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
The site I posted gave you direct access to the writer. What you are doing here Dana is dodging and ducking and doing your best to resist having to do correct historical research. You are doing so because you KNOW that if proper research is done it may lead you away from the wild black radical views that you want to promote. The problem is that if you do not follow my advice nothing you believe can ever be accepted.
Posted by Narmer Menes (Member # 16122) on :
ignore the fool dana, he has no credibility whatsoever, I think he's just a kid.... continue, your research is very enlightening.
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
Narmer is not even creative when it comes to his insults, he has to copy the lines used by me. Dana knows exactly what I am talking about, Narmer does not.
You have a great opportunity to learn and if you refuse you can continue to suffer.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
There is no use of historical method here and no one is in fact giving a history lesson. Your lack of logic and reasoning ability sometimes astounds me, Hammer. That is why I know you are not a true academic.
If you want to post a site you could have posted the link, instead of pretending it was your own thoughts and not those of other individuals including those of a black scholar in Jamaica.
Most importantly you could have posted YOUR OWN thoughts for once - something you have yet to do, from what I am told by other bloggers here, since you've been on it. And I am told is a lot longer than I have been on it.
As I am "black radical" than you should have no worries in my so-called "views" getting out to the rest of the world.
I'm not sure why you are so obsessed with denying the information and observations put up here that Europeans wrote and why you insist they are my views and that I need to analyze it for you.
If I was going to do a research paper I am certainly not going to put it up on some blog, nor is any individual involved in academia. I'm sure you've not been in it or at least not long enough to understand this, or you wouldn't be posting whole pages on a board without providing a link for it.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: ignore the fool dana, he has no credibility whatsoever, I think he's just a kid.... continue, your research is very enlightening.
Very glad you find this info enlightning Narmer and will be posting a lot more European observations soon. Ur right I should ignore Hammer because before he was funny and now its just getting annoying.
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
Just complete garbage Dana. You are just upset because I properly called you out yesterday for posting outdated material, with no context and not a single view by a major modern historian.
That is OK because I think you learned something whether you admit it or not.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Narmer is not even creative when it comes to his insults, he has to copy the lines used by me. Dana knows exactly what I am talking about, Narmer does not.
You have a great opportunity to learn and if you refuse you can continue to suffer.
Speak for your paternalistic self Hammer - I actually don't have the slightest idea what ur crazy talk is about and neither do I know anymore why you are here. So if you leave again I will most certainly not be inviting you back this time.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
1847 - On the bedouin inhabitants of Sinai in 1847 “upon returning to my tent I found a multitude of dark brown Arabs collected in front of it. They urged upon me that they were the true guides to Sinai, that their own domicile was upon Sinai, and that they had the most complete knowledge of every nook and corner of the desert. From Travels in the East by F. C. Tischendorf (translated from Reuse in Der Orient by W.E. Shuckard 1847 published by Longman Brown Green and Longmans? by Lobegott
1879 - On the Hamida a clan of the Harb Arabs of Hejaz “small chocolate colored beings, stunted and thin… mops of bushy hair… straggling beards , vicious eyes, frowning brows … armed with scabbards slung over the shoulder and Janbiyyah daggers…” a people “of the great hejazi tribe that has kept his blood pure” for the last 13 centuries…” Richard Francis 1879 Burton Personal Narrative of a Pilgrimage to el Medina and Mecca .p. 173 3rd edition William Mullen and Son
13th-14th century A.D. -“Red, in the speech of the people from the Hijaz, means fair-complexioned and this color is rare amongst the Arabs. This is the meaning of the saying, ‘…a red man as if he is one of the slaves’. The speaker meant that his color is like that of the slaves who were captured from the Christians of Syria, Rome and Persia.” Quoted from Al Dhahabi of Damascus Syria, in Seyar al Nubala’a, cited on p. 55, The Unknown Arabs, 2002, by Tariq Berry.
13th c. Kitab al Aiman or Book of Oaths, which in Book 15, Number 4046 says “ We were sitting in the company of Abu Musa that he called for food and it consisted of flesh of fowl. It was then that a person from Banu Ta’im visited him. His complexion was red having the resemblance of a slave.”
From Sahih Bukhari (One Fifth of Booty to the Cause of Allah) Volume 4, Book 53, Number 361: Narrated Zahdam: “Once we were in the house of Abu Musa who presented a meal containing cooked chicken. A man from the tribe of Bani Ta’imallah with red complexion as if he were from the Byzantine war prisoners, was present.”’
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
11th c. Iraqi Christian, Ibn Butlan on “the Berber women... as women whose "color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters, active in service, suited both to motherhood and to pleasure, for they are the most solicitous in caring for their children.” cited in Gender and Sexuality in the Middle Ages By Martha A. Brożyna p. 303 2005.
In contrast Butlan also goes on to describe the Beja women of Nubia as "golden" in complexion.
The same Sanhaja women are written of as "black" (utilizing the Spanish word for blacks) and "Moorish" in the Primera Cronica General of Alfonso X, completed in the 1200s.
1982 - "The events are associated with the Almoravid siege of Valencia after the death of the Cid. Nugaymath Turquia is the leader of a band of three hundred Amazons. They are negresses, their heads were shaven leaving only a topknot..." H.T. Norris - The Berbers in Arab Literature London and New York. (This is a hair style still in use among the Tuareg.)
These writings shows the Sanhaja and other Berbers were called black by both Middle Eastern and European people.
The references to Masmuda and Ketama Berbers and to the first Berber army in Spain of Zenata stock as "blacks" or "Sudan" by Middle Eastern people are also well known.
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
Well, dana...you got your wish - to have a tete-a-tete with our resident idiot. I mean, a dead giveaway, is his use of the expression "outdated material"!
By his infantile illogic; Hamlet, Omar Khayyam, Lincoln Douglass Debates, Herodotus, Imhotep, the US Constitution, The Tale of Sinuhe, ..... - are all irelevant, because they're "old" and "outdated" ---
Like 'they' say; be careful what you wish for... Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
stupid man. If you use dated material you have to provide context and you need the views of modern historians to round out your research. Wally, everytime you post you make a fool out of yourself.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wally: Well, dana...you got your wish - to have a tete-a-tete with our resident idiot. I mean, a dead giveaway, is his use of the expression "outdated material"!
By his infantile illogic; Hamlet, Omar Khayam, Lincoln Douglass Debates, Herodotus, Imhotep, the US Constitution, The Tale of Sinuhe, ..... - are all irelevant, because they're "old" and "outdated" ---
Like 'they' say; be careful what you wish for...
Yeah Wally - but I'm glad its over. I like to give Eurocentrics the benefit of the doubt that they are just a little jealous having been so brainwashed, but it always comes as a shock when you come to realize they are really and truly deranged! I should have taken everyone's advice here. Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
right, we are so brainwashed we actually require someone to source their material through specialists.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: right, we are so brainwashed we actually require someone to source their material through specialists.
Ummm... as I was quoting Europeans saying:
1809 - “They carry the Christian captives about the desert to the different markets to sell them for they soon discover that their habits of life render them unserviceable , or very inferior to the black slaves of Timbuktoo. “ Commentary on those called “Moors” by an early 19th century observer from, An Account of the Empire of Marocco, by J. G. Jackson published 1809 and 1814.
2003 – “From 1500 to 1650 when trans-Atlantic slaving was still in its infancy more Europeans were taken to Barbary than black African slaves to the Americas. See, Robert Davis Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800, MacMillan Publishers, published 2003.
4th century – Claudian wrote, “ when tired of each noblest matron Gildo hands her over to the Moors. These Sidonian mothers, married in Carthage city must needs mate with barbarians. He thrusts upon me an Ethiopian as a son-in law, a Berber as a husband. The hideous hybrid affrights its cradle.” Claudian, by Claudius Claudianus, translation by Maurice Platnauer, Published by G.P. Putnam’s sons, 1922 p. 113
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
1998 - "The etymology of the word of moreno and negro seems to stem from the same root, the Latin diminutive of maurus through Mozarabic and Castillian Spanish. Today however dictionaries define negro as black and moreno as brun or brunet(te). None the less Moreno means black in Ecuador it is not used to refer to people with of lighter skin or to brunet(t)es." from Blackness in Latin America and the Caribbean, by Norman Whitten and Arlene Torres, Indiana University press. p. 85
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: I actually don't have the slightest idea what ur crazy talk is about
Don't worry, no one in here ever "gets" this creepy old man. Apart from his signature mindless appeals to authority (which he hasn't even read) and his a priori bigoted assumptions, all he does is complain about the level of scholarship and what he sees as misinformation in here yet he posts in here everyday! LOL
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Your right Bogle, and learning that people giving me advice on this forum KNOW what they are talking about (when it comes to trolls) is what's comforting.
Unfortunately, being hardheaded, it took me some time to understand that.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
1913 - "On page 54 of the same book Rawlinson says: The antiquity of civilization in the valley of the Nile which preceded by many centuries that even of primitive Chaldaea is another indication of the migration having been from east to west; and the monuments and traditions of the Chaldaeans themselves have been thought to present some curious indications of an east African origin. On the whole, therefore, it seems that the race designated in scripture by the hero founder Nimrod and among Greeks by the eponym of Belus, pased from east Africa by way of Arabia to the valley of the Eurphrates, shortly after the opening of the historical period." p. 512 of The African abroad, Or, His Evolution in Western Civilization, Tracing His Development Under Caucasian Milieu, Volume I by William Henry Ferris, 1913
1911 ".. a description of the bones of an early Briton of that remote epoch might apply in all esential details to an inhabitant of Somaliland... The people were longheaded of small stature, skull is long, narrow and coffin shaped, brow ridges poorly developed, forehead is narrow, vertical and often slightly bulging." pp. 65 The Ancient Egyptians Elliot Smith
1911 - "...it will be found that the geographical circumstances tend to support and corroborate that the contention put forward in the preceding paragraphs on other grounds that the kinsmen of the Mediterranean and Hamitic peoples overflowed so to speak from the Mediterranean and East African littorals into the whole peninsula of Arabia and the shores of the Persian Gulf. In other words Syria, Arabia, Mesopotamia and Sumer were parts of the original domain of the Brown Race." pp. 145-146 of The Ancient Egyptians and their Influence on the Civilization of Europe, Harper and Brothers London and New York, 1911.
1911 - "The essential identity to the early Neolithic Europeans and of the proto-Egyptians is generally admitted. The former in fact were certainly derived from the latter." G. Elliot Smith p. 27 The Ancient Egyptians recent 2007 edition.
LATER -
Ephraim Speiser was one of the first to mention in his Oriental and Biblical Studies ( published in 1967 by the University of Pennsylvania Press )the curiosity of how the familiar remains of sculptured monuments in the fertile cresent didn't seem to reflect the dominant ancient dolichocephalic (long-headed) Afro-Mediterranean population of the region, but rather round-headed prominent nosed types then called "Armenoids" by physical anthropologists.
1952 - "Examination of the skulls which have been found on several sites in Anatolia shows that in the third millennium the population was preponderantly long-headed or dolichocephalic, with only a small admixture of brachycephalic types. In the second millennium the proportion of brachycephalic skulls increases to about 50 percent."” (6) Gurney, O.R.; The Hittites, Penguin Books, 1990, First Ed. 1952 p. 284
1972 - “The population of both Upper and Lower Mesopotamia in prehistoric times belonged to the brown or Mediterranean race. While this basic stock persisted in historical, times especially in the south, it became increasingly, mixed especially with broad-headed Armenoid peoples from the northeastern mountains owing to the recurrent incursions of mountain tribes into the plain.” In William L. Langer – An Encyclopedia of World History, Houghton Mifflin Company Boston 1972 .
1987 - "The Mushabians moved into the Sinai from the Nile Delta, bring North African lithic chipping techniques... the population overflow from Northeast Africa played a definite role in the establishment of the Natufian adaptation, which in turn led to the emergence of agriculture as a new subsistence system." Pleistocene connexions between Africa and Southwest Asia: an archaeological perspective O. Bar-Yosef. African Archaeological Review. 5 (1987) Pg 29.
1993 - “the fact that so many European Neolithic groups in Figure 4 tie more closely to the Late Dynastic Egyptians near the Mediterranean coast than they do with modern Europeans provides suggestive support for an eastern Mediterranean source for the people of the European Neolithic at an even earlier time level than Bernal suggests for the Egyptian-Phoenician colonization and influence on Greece early in the second millennium BC" found in Clines and Clusters versus 'Race': A Test in Ancient Egypt and the Case of a Death on the Nile, Year book of Physical Anthropology, 36:1-33, 1993
2006 - “The significance of Africans in these cultures and early development of agriculture in southwest Asia and Anatolia can be seen from “African” skeletal traits and painted images both among (Mediterranean) Natufians and early farmers (at Chatal Huyuk and Nea Nikomedia).” Black Athena: The Afroasiatic Roots of Civilization Volume III, p. 52
2006 - "Modern Europeans ranging all of the way from Scandinavia to Eastern Europe and throughout the Mediterranean on to the Middle East show that they are closely related to each other. The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants..." from The questionable contribution of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to European craniofacial form, C. Loring Brace, Noriko Seguchi, Conrad B. Quintyn,§ Sherry C. Fox,¶ A. Russell Nelson, Sotiris K. Manolis, and Pan Qifeng Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2006 January 3; 103(1): 242–247.
Surprise, surprise... but why are modern scientists surprised?
Anatomist G. Elliot Smith along with other physical anthropologists had said long ago in the early 1900s - "The populations which occupied North East AFrica to the Bab el Mandeb the whole Mediterranean littoral, the Iberian peninsula, Western France and the British Isels before the coming of copper were linked together by the closest bonds of affinity. They were certainly the offspring of one mother..." p. 67 The Ancient Egyptians 2007 Edition.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
1874 "...The most ancient Greeks in their writings and traditions knew nothing of that name Phoenicians, but they did know and use such names as Ethiopians, Sidonians, and Aradians. Ethiopia was the term most commonly applied to the country afterwards called Phoenicia; and this term as an appellation to describe some of the communities and districts that were under Phoenician control, did not pass out of use until after the beginning of the Christian Era.” p. 133-134 Pre-Historic Nations or Inquiries John Denison Baldwin Concerning Some of the Great Peoples and…
The 19th century scholars speculated the ancient Philistines and Phoenicians or Canaanites were an "Ethiopic" people. More recent scholars have connected them with "Indo-Europeans" and modern Lebanese respectively.
But, as this picture of a Phillistine of the temple of Medinet Habu (from the Ramessid period) in Egypt shows, ancient Canaanites apparently looked to ancient Egyptians more like Watusi than like Europeans.
The Philistines, a remnant of the Anakim (Bible book, Jer. xlvii. 5,) left their homeland in the Arabian land of Canaan conquered by the Israelites of the Saarat or Sara, “There were none of the Anakim left in the land of the children of Israel. Only in Gaza, in Gath (Ghayt), and in Ashdod (As-Shedad), did some remain.” Biblical book of Joshua 11:22
“The children of Ham possessed the land from Syria and Amanus, and the mountains of Libanus; seizing upon all that was on its sea-coasts, and as far as the ocean, and keeping it as their own. Some indeed of its names are utterly vanished away; others of them being changed, and another sound given them, are hardly to be discovered; yet a few there are which have kept their denominations entire. “ Josephus circa 1st c. Antiquities of the Jews, Book I, Chapter 6
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
The earliest chiefs of the groups called Persians and Medes called themselves by such names as Dahhak (Deiokes) and Azd Dahhak, after their ancestor also called Zohak by later historians. Their ancestors of these same people were also called Cephenians (after Kepheus husband of by Cassiopeia) the Greeks a name for Ethiopians and Phoenicians.
The legendary Dahhak was said to have ruled Mesopotamia for a 1000 years and is known as the dragon with three heads.
A soldier from the Afar tribe of Ethiopia
As recorded by Herodotus and other Greeks early groups of the Achaemenid Persians belonged to the Da'ae, Derbikes and Derusians who are the Daasa, Derbika and Therwasa of later Hindu mythology.
A soldier from the Persian (Farsians of Iran)
In early Arabian tradition Dahak is an South Arabian related to Akk and Shadad. He is sometimes called a son of King Mirdas or otherwise a son of Alwan or Walid, an Amalekite king associated with ruling Misr. He is likely associated with the name of the early South Arabian tribe of Ad Da'a in some genealogies called son of Hamdan, son of Simbar (Beshman/Ishban), son of Yathrab (Ithran), son of Yahzin a descendant of Ar'awi (Reu'el) grandson of Dayshan (Dishan) son of Aisar or Assir (Ezer).
1883 - "Zohak, say most writers came from Arabia or Ethiopia of ancient days, or even further S. W. as from the serpent lands of Africa where the Faith ever flourished, nor yet has ceased to do so..." Rivers of Life, Or Sources and Streams of the Faiths of Man in all Lands... James Forlong p. 101.
Darius "the Great", King of Persia
1969 - "Dahak with his two additional serpent heads is the same as the powerful, ravenous Dasa with his 6 eyes and 3 heads." from the Rig Veda 10.99.6 cited in Hamlet's Mill: An Essay on Myth and the Frame of Time
The Dahae are in the Rig Vedas called black Dasas.
"Indra, who slayed Vritra and stormed towns, has destroyed the troops of the black Dasas, and has made the earth and the water for Manu." p. 121
"In X 49 Indra proclaims that he deprived the Dasyu race of the name of Arya (verse 6)... that he cuts the Dasas in twain - 'It is for this fate that they have been born'." p. 123 Encyclopaedia Indica: India Pakistan Bangladesh Vol 14, by Shyam Singh Shashi.
Herodotus also claimed that Scythians using Soma had adopted the name of Aryan from the original Medes and Persians. The Rig Veda is a book either fully composed or interpreted by the Scythians who adopted names and deities and even some of the stories of the original Aryans for themselves. These fair-skinned Scyths later moved into India. Centuries later in India where they settled and apparently forgetting or ignoring the fact that much of their heritage as "Aryans" had been adopted from darker skinned peoples - they created a story about the fair-skinned Scythians ovecoming tripura-building Daasas (the original people named Aryans) in Central Asia.
The tripura were fortresses with three walls which the Daae and other early Persians/Medes related people made in Central Asia and not India. Many of the things native to India were never mentioned in the Rig Veda and other great Indian epics for the simple fact that it is based on stories that deal with regions further north.
Thus, today there is great and warranted controversy over whom the true Vedic peoples were and where they came from. Scholars also try to no avail to claim that the color theme of white conquerors conquering black skinned ones is purely symbolic.
But it is safe to say that the same people who distorted the myth of Ham also distorted the early myths of the Aryas. The distorted translations of the story of Ham getting drunk upon seeing Noah and 'turning black" is closely associated with early use of Hauma (Soma) and its meaning of fermented drink and fermented black mud. The allegory is found in Hindu tradition as the story of Charma, Sharma and Dyaus Pita (Japhet).
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
1835 - “The Shellooh, it must be observed are a clans people and great genealogists. They call themselves, the descendants of Mazigh, son of Canaan, and consider their northern neighbours, the Brebber of Fez, as Philistines, descendants of Casluhim, son of Mizraim. Ibn Khaldun says of the Berbers in general that they are descended from Ham, like the ancient Egyptians. “ p. 263 found in Penny Cyclopaedia of the Society for the Diffusion of Useful Knowledge.
Shluh (also written Shellooh, Shil'ha or Chleuh) of Northwest Africa.
The Shluh Berbers are remnants of the Sylli of early Greek and Roman writers closely related to the Masaesylli and Masylli (also anciently written "Musulini" and "Mesallama")of ancient Numidia (ancient northern Algeria and western Tunisia). The term Sylli, Shilha, Jil and Kel among Berbers is related to an east African word meaning clan.
1854 - "...MAURI Μαυροί, “Blacks,” in the Alexandrian dialect, Paus. i, 33 § 5, 8.43. [2.297] § 3; Sal. Jug. 19; Pomp. Mela, 1.4.3; Liv. 21.22, 28.17; Hor. Carm. 1.22. 2, 2.6. 3, 3.10. 18; Tac. Ann. 2.52, 4.523, 14.28, Hist. 1.78, 2.58, 4.50; Lucan 4.678; Juv. 5.53, 6.337; Flor. 3.1, 4.2); hence the name MAURETANIA...These Moors, who must not be considered as a different race from the Numidians, but as a tribe belonging to the same stock, were represented by Sallust (Sal. Jug. 21) as a remnant of the army of Hercules, and by Procopius (B. V. 2.10) as the posterity of the Cananaeans who fled from the robber (ληστής) Joshua... " - taken from the Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography, William Smith, L.L.D. 1854
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
14th centry - "the Berbers are the children of Canaan son of Ham, son of Noah. Their ancestor was named Mazigh..." Ibn Khaldun
MAURI were once a the very dark-skinned people occupying coastal North Africa. Tuareg also called Imoshagh (Mazikes of Roman texts)themselves are known in African manuscripts as a group that before settling themselves mixed with "Turks and Tartars", Syrian and Khoran (Iranian) merchants. According to Idrisi in the 11th century A.D. these veiled Berbers were still spread between Zeila in Somalia and to the Maghreb in the far west. (See Richmond Palmer's, book, Bornu Sahara and Sudan)
1835 - "Ahmed el Fasi, in his Ketab el Giammar, says that the Berbers are a colony of Philistines who took refuge in Africa after David had killed Gialout or Goliath (Herbelot, art. Gialout). Others say that they are the descendants of the Canaanites and Amalekites driven from Palestine by Joshua. “ on p. 262 of The 1835 Penny Cyclopaedia of the Society for the Diffusion of Useful Knowledge, Volume 4
Men from the noble clans of the Tuareg wear a dark blue indigo veil.
The descendants of Tuareg (speakers of Ta'Mashek meaning belonging to the Mashek or Mazigh) and other relatively pure Berbers still claim descent from the Canaanites through Amalek later and otherwise known as Phoenicians (Ph'anakes of the Greco Egyptian Manetho) and Philistines. (The Amalekite shepherds are called Phoenicians by the Roman Josephus circa 1st c. see the text Antiquities of the Jews.)
As mentioned previously, some Tuareg men not long ago in colonial times were recorded as being up to and over 7 feet tall. The Tuareg told colonial writers that came originally from Phoenicia. In the 9th century, Ya'aqubi, Arabic historian of Central Asian origin said certain Tuareg tribes in north Africa called "Ilam" were also known as "Ailanab" because "when their ancestors ruled in Egypt" they were spread from (Ailah or the Gulf of Aylah or Elah) to Barka. This is a reference to the reign of "the Hyksos" in the 2nd millenium B.C. and the Amalekite conquest and rule in Canaan, Egypt from the Hejaz (western Arabia).
Tuareg of modern Mali
The Ifuras (Ifren) and Maghira (Makhura) clans of Tuareg of Mali and Sahel claimed descent from Isleten or Soulat(Salatis), Chana or Djana(Khyan) a descendant of Canaan and other Hyksos (Amalekite) kings mentioned on ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs and scarabs. They descend from Berbers or Zenata camelmen of the deserts of Libya (Tripolitania) as the Nafusawa or Nafzawa further North.
Berber girl of Jebel Nafusa in western Libya (the Jebel Nafusa region is part of ancient "Tripolitania")
1915 “ The Amalekites migrated into Egypt and southern Pal. The Pharoahs of the time of Abraham, Joseph and Moses are represented to have been Amalekites. Finally, broken up by Josh, they fled into northern Africa, where they are said to have grown into the Berber races...” - found in the International Standard Bible Enclcopaedia by James Orr.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Dana
quote:Third, the term Moor was used for "black men" according to even many modern historians by the Christians in Spain and the former were hardly all run out of the Iberian peninsula - or else would not have appeared later in Japanese paintings black and bearded as ever with the white Portuguese on ships.
Could you expand on the above later when you got a chance I aways supposed they were slave sailors..as they were alawys shown to be manual labourors and in a perceived inferior positon.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Dana
quote:Third, the term Moor was used for "black men" according to even many modern historians by the Christians in Spain and the former were hardly all run out of the Iberian peninsula - or else would not have appeared later in Japanese paintings black and bearded as ever with the white Portuguese on ships.
Could you expand on the above later when you got a chance I aways supposed they were slave sailors..as they were alawys shown to be manual labourors and in a perceived inferior positon.
Hi Brada - I unfortunately don't have the book showing the Moors on ships standing behind the Portuguese. in those paintings they are standing in rows and the figures are larger than the one in the photo below. They are very black long-headed, slender and bearded. Something like the famous painting of Moors playing chess in Spain in an earlier century below.
Of course you are correct in saying that at the time the Portuguese visited Japan or 16th century which is after the time the Moors had lost control of the Iberian peninsula the Moors which were left in Portugal were indeed "slave sailors" and in a servile position to the Christians.
Notice in the painting below done in the 16th century in Japan. Though the figures are small in this painting the white Portuguese are being shadowed by black men holding umbrellas over the heads of the white Portuguese and doing other things. Similarly, Moorish-looking bearded black men are figured standing in rows on ships behind the Portuguese in other Japanese paintings from the same period.
The Portuguese depicted visiting 16th century Japan with their Moorish servants
Moors play chess in Spain from an earlier time, but at a relatively late period in the Muslim empire when the Mozarab term "Moro" was still synonymous with the Mozarab word "Negro"
The Moors or Moro, like the other Africans (Congolese) that came with the Portuguese to America are similarly documented as Negro or near black in color.
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
The idea that Moors were negroid is absurd. Obviously they were a diverse group but mostly arab muslims. There are genetic studies all over the web that deal with these issues.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: The idea that Moors were negroid is absurd. Obviously they were a diverse group but mostly arab muslims. There are genetic studies all over the web that deal with these issues.
Umm ... call el Negro what you want. And be glad!
Saudi bedouins
I personally prefer like the Mozarab translation - "el Moro".
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Late 19th European portrayals of "Arab" bedouin and Moors in various places. Moors at this late time meant absolutely black "Negroids" and many of their tawny or mulatto descendants
Title: "A Moorish Procession"
Title: "Moorish Warrior"
Title: "Moorish Guard"
OOPS! - Sorry for the many "true Negroids" depicted in this posting of Moors and Arabs
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Thanks Dana,so many of the black sailors would have been left over converted Moors much in line with Leo Africanus and Estivanico.
My how the mighty hath fallen.
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
Brada, Nobody has fallen. What has happened is that a group of you in the mental institution have taken over the computer lab. You guys are some of the most ignorant people I have ever observed. It proves that teaching people to read and write is only a small part of the job. We have severe problems in the black community and you people come on here putting out garbage. One would think that making a positive contribution to the world, even a small one, would be a positive thing.
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Folks, notice how this Hammer character has been reduced to whining.
The boy has no credibility. Outside of race myth fantasies he has nothing to offer.
Po thang.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Hammer go to the chalk board and write 500 times I will not interrupt grown folks conversations I will not interrupt grown folks conversations I will not interrupt grown folks conversations Then take this suspention notice to your parents..ok???
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
Nice pics.
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
This is a classic example of why black people aroud the world bring up the rear in every catagory. They are consumed and obsessed with being victims. Meanwhile their kids can't write and if they make it to college at all end up in remedial classes all out of scale to their numbers. the cities and countries they run are laced with corruption and crime and pverty. Meanwhile we have a group of brick heads on this board who want to support some mythical brand of alternative history cooked up non scholars and promoted by message boards. The damage they do is not to our hard working scholars but to confused black kids trying to undertand the world they live in.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: Nice pics.
Thanks Bogle, I forgot this one posted by someone for the Rastalivewire site, and I have to "confuse some more black kids". Notice the person is referred to in the article as a "Berber pirate".
"Berber" of the "race of Guelaia".
More "alternative history" below.
1909 - From "The Passing of the Shereefian Empire", by E. Ashmead-Bartlett
"THE CAMPAIGN IN THE RIFF."
"ON August 3, 1909, I again found myself en route for Morocco. During the month of July hostilities suddenly broke out between the Span- ish garrison occupying Melilla and the Riff tribesmen, the savage unconquered race who dwell amongst the mountains of Guelaia Peninsula....
The Guelaia Peninsula broadens out towards the west, and the Moors,if hard pressed, could avoid Gurugu and Soto-mayor, and escape across the Eio de Oro into the friendly territory of the Beni Said, and by making a detour regain the mountains from the south-west."
There is also region called Ayn Bou Guelia in Tunisia.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Painting entitled "Two Moors", by Rembrandt
My sincere sympathy to those offended by their "Negroid"ness.
1834 - “The Kabyles…dress like the Arabs and a part from a few tribes, are brown complexioned and black haired” said by Thomas Campbell cited on p. 109 of Barbary and Enlightenment: European Attitudes Toward the Maghreb in the 18th Century, Ann Thomson. Published in 1987 by E. J. Bull
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Thanks Dana,so many of the black sailors would have been left over converted Moors much in line with Leo Africanus and Estivanico.
My how the mighty hath fallen.
I would agree Brada, but from the painting below it looks like some Europeans were ignorant of the fact that the word "black" was to be used before the word "Moor".LOL
"A Moor" by Juriaen of Streeck (1619-1673)
Originally discovered and posted by Egmond Codfried.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Painting entitled: Kabyle, by Adolf SCHREYER (1828 - 1899)
Who should frankly be ashamed of himself for observing a Kabyle man in such a fashion. He should have foreseen that this degree of "Negroidity" is unacceptable to Negrophobes.
"Kabyle"
Now this 1860s depiction from "Enfants Kabyles" is much more acceptable. More Fulani like - no?
By Isidore-Alexandre-Augustin Pils
1834 - “The Kabyles…dress like the Arabs and a part from a few tribes, are brown complexioned and black haired” stated by Thomas Campbell; cited on p. 109 of Barbary and Enlightenment: European Attitudes Toward the Maghreb in the 18th Century, Ann Thomson. Published 1987 by E. J. Bull
1842 - "The Kabyles are described as being about the middle height, with brown complexions, sometimes verging on black... System of Universal Geography, founded on the Works of Malte-Brun and Balbi, p. 842.
1887 - "The Kabyles of the Algerian and Tunisian territories are the most industrious inhabitants of the Barabary States,...They are of middle stature; their complexion is brown, and sometimes nearly black." p. 101 of The Gospel in All Lands
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
[ Mosque from the Almoravid period
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Entitled: "Moorish Men" 1899
Men sit before a cafe in Algiers.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
[
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Ancient indigenes of the Sahara portray themselves making their customary hair crests.
The Fulani are otherwise known as Fellata, Fula, Peul, Fula, Fulbe, and as Futa, Futabe or Woodabe. The hair crest has a special meaning in their culture. They originally occupied North Africa and the Sahara and judging from Old Kingdom paintings the western oases of Egypt. They were ancestral elongated types who many scholars consider associated with the pastoral (bovidian)tradition in neolithic North Africa and Sahara. Like their relatives the Tuareg an other "elongated" African types, many Fulani men of the Sahel (Woodabe) reach a height of 7 feet in stature.
Strong cultural connections or similarities (lithic industry) have been found between the neolithic bovidian culture of the Sahara (Tenere, Air, Tassili, etc.), the Kharga and Fayum Oases and areas of the Arabian peninsula such as the Rub al Khali (where rock art shows similar elongated African types).
Today as yesterday.
Young man of the east African (Bororo) branch of the Fulani.
Kobe Bryant - professional basketball player
The Fulani who are spread from East to West Africa are known to have been ancestral to millions of Africans in the Americas.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: Nice pics.
Thanks Bogle, I forgot this one posted by someone for the Rastalivewire site, and I have to "confuse some more black kids". Notice the person is referred to in the article as a "Berber pirate".
"Berber" of the "race of Guelaia".
More "alternative history" below.
1909 - From "The Passing of the Shereefian Empire", by E. Ashmead-Bartlett
"THE CAMPAIGN IN THE RIFF."
"ON August 3, 1909, I again found myself en route for Morocco. During the month of July hostilities suddenly broke out between the Span- ish garrison occupying Melilla and the Riff tribesmen, the savage unconquered race who dwell amongst the mountains of Guelaia Peninsula....
The Guelaia Peninsula broadens out towards the west, and the Moors,if hard pressed, could avoid Gurugu and Soto-mayor, and escape across the Eio de Oro into the friendly territory of the Beni Said, and by making a detour regain the mountains from the south-west."
There is also region called Ayn Bou Guelia in Tunisia.
Actually I posted that here on Egyptsearch as well along with all the orientalist portraits at the top of the thread.
Europeans know what Moors mean. Europeans know A LOT about the history of blacks world wide. Of course they do because a LOT of it is sitting either in private collections or hidden away in the basement of museums. Have you ever noticed how much stuff is in the homes of the wealthy? Black "negroid" Buddha statues, ivories and carvings from all over Africa, Egyptian relics, Moorish relics. ALL of this stuff they have and KNOW more about than most blacks do.
The point is that they are simply liars and thieves and like any good society of thieves and liars they are careful to make sure their lies are not in conflict in order to present a false front to everyone else. But of course the whole purpose of this false front is to make thieves and liars look like unbiased "scholars" and "truth seekers" while they are lying to your face. But of course so much of the propaganda in white society is all about making thieves and crooks look like heroes and saviors and unfortunately a lot of victims go for it. This is why they steal so many artifacts world wide, including now Iraq, so that their experts can play games with the facts and tell lies.....
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: No, all Moors were not black because later in time the term loosened up and referred to various Muslims.
Thus we have: * black-a-moor * tawny moor * white moor. But take note from Black-a-Moor (black as a Moor) that Moor must've originally designated a black person.
While there are plenty a black-a-moor in Orientalist art I haven't seen too many pieces of actual Islamic art with any blacks in them. The stuff I've run across is mostly like the below but I'm sure somebody can find better pieces than this.
quote:Originally posted by T. Rex: To be honest, I have to express some doubt that the Moors were all black. If that was true, why'd they depict themselves like this?
It's from "Qissat Bayad wa Riyad".
Also it is important to note that the time period given for the creation of this document is during the Almoravid Dynasty. Therefore, such a manuscript, with its influence and similarity to eastern artistic trends and literary traditions, probably does not really depict "Moors" or more specifically Almoravids to any large degree. It was under the Almoravids that a large resurgence in literature and art occurred in Andalus, of which this document is quite likely part.
But I can guarantee you that if you were to look at the documents, portraits and writings of Europeans and the artifacts they have from the last 800 years, you would clearly see how it is only in America that "Moor" has become redefined out of necessity. But even then they contradict themselves because many of the American photos, documents and artifacts contradict the views of the racists to begin with.
And here is another image of the Rif pirates: Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Doug - I think you are correct that America needed to redefine what "a Moor" was, although early Moors coming to America were also described as blacks and dark brown.
But, also there were certainly depictions of Muslims that were fair-skinned particularly after the 13th century in Britain especially. A "Moor" became any person particularly from Morocco and then of North Africa in general. Thus, the British and some French painters from after the 13th but before the 20th century often painted women from N. African harems as calling them "Moorish" women, etc.
Nevertheless - the word Moor Moro is used synonomously for "Negro" by both Christian Spaniards and the English or British before the 14th century and unlike later periods, the term then included for people of all faiths.
One note just to put things in context - the Central Asian people in the first picture of your post (first posted by someone else) had nothing to do with "the Arabs" or "Moors" of Spain and the black people represented therein could be anyone from Indian to Arab to African.
The name of such Turkoman Muslims who entered Iran and Turkey escapes me at the moment but there is a name for them and the period they belong to. I know it wasn't the Mameluks.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Some black Americans, to the chagrin of a few, have already found genetic connections to the Tuareg, among them one of the leading activists in the reparations movement in the U.S..
Photo: Chuck Berry, American entertainer
Tuareg from the group Tinariwen
See also BIOARCHAEOLOGY OF THE AFRICAN DIASPORA IN THE AMERICAS: Its Origins and Scope in the Annual Review of Anthropology Vol. 30: 387-422 (Volume publication date October 2001)
Michael L. Blakey, Department of Anthropology, College of William and Mary, Williamsburg,Virginia
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LOL Dana, don't mind Hammered. We have explained to this guy in over a dozen threads that the Moors were black Africans. The very word 'Moore' is derived from the Greek word maure meaning black. All evidence including historical documentation and artwork from Europeans themselves shows this. So that he continues to be in denial of such is proof that he suffers from mental issues.
In regard to the Syrians, we know the Greeks spoke of a 'Leuco-Syrian' or white-Syrians during late classical times meaning that these were an exception to the generally darker Syrians.
^ The people above represent the Elamites who were the indigenous people of Iran before the coming of the Indo-Iranian speakers. All historical evidence shows a mixing of fair-skinned Iranians from Central Asia with indigenes and eventually usurpation. Although prominent Elamite families still maintained high positions in the Persian empire including as royal admistrators and guards like the 'Immortals'. What's interesting is that in earlier Babylonian stone engravings and depictions, Judaeans are sometimes mistaken for Elamites by modern scholars and for apparent reasons. This was pointed out before by Takruri.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Hi Djehuti - I agree what you said about the pretender in your first paragraph.
But I would only add the following.
I would suggest that the Elamites and the Persians were two different peoples. The Elamites spoke dialects related to the Dravidians while the Persians were descendants of peoples who had founded Maitanni coming from the Hyksos.
Medes or Mada and Persians(Daae, Achaemenid, Amardi, Derbikes), according to their own legends, were descendants of Dahakk, Al Daaa, Saudah or Sudabeh, Afrasiab, "Siavash son of Kavus" or Ka'ush and other semi-legendary Iranians heroes said to have once ruled in the land of Himyar (Haumavaran).
This is why later Arabic writers refer to the "Meds" who settled on the Indus as descendants of Ham.
The Persian capital of Persepolis was of course in Elam where these Persian palace reliefs were made.
Elamite man - the ruling class of pre-Persian Elam were relatively small and black people some of whom evidently had flaring nostrils (according to Maspero?). They were closely related in their dialects and probably biology to ancient Dravidians.
Modern man still residing in ancient Elamite town.
Persian Soldier of Persepolis
The Persians were probable descendants of Afro-Arabians (Amlukh or "Meluchha") who settled Syria during the Hyksos reign under "Qabus" and "Dahak son of Alwan".
Afar man of the horn of Africa.
Men of the Medes
Medes or Madai or Mathani settled Syria probably after "the Hyksos" who were undoubtedly originally an Afrosemitic people from the Hejaz. The land of "Maitanni" of Naharain was probably named for the regions called Mathani, Nahar and Bathana in the Hejaz around Ta'if (south of Mecca) as suggested by Kamal Salibi in his book THE BIBLE CAME FROM ARABIA. Thus scholars have noted the story of Job or Ayyub(the Midianite) of Uz is the same as that of "Tobias" of Median and Ecbatana.
Greeks and other early writers are known to have confused the land of Midian in Arabia with the land of Median. And perhaps rightly as both appear to have been the same people originally.
This heritage is the root of the story by Abulfeda Ibn Khathir, a thirteenth-century Arabic scholar, and earlier Arabic historians, that Lud (El Aoud), Noah's grandson through Shem, had four sons named Pharis (Fairuz), Djurdjan (Traetona), Tasm (Tasma), and Amlekh (Mleccha) and these traveled to the East and along with Jathiar and Thamud settled such places a Baktriana, Gedrosia and other Central Asian regions up to the Caspian Sea.
The earliest "Indic Iranians" were later invaded by long-haired people called Scythians, as was India. They are associated with the later Parthian and Sassanian periods of Persia.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ I don't see how we disagree?? If you read my previous post again, I did point out the fact that the Elamites and Persians were different peoples. As I said, the Elamites were the indigenes of the Iranian plateau long before the 'Iranians' proper that include Medes, Persians, Dahae, etc. appeared. As for Elamite relations to Dravidian, not much of the Elamite script has been left but from what has been gathered the Elamite language is not found to be closely related to any other known language thus making it a language isolate; however, there does seem to be a distant affinity with Dravidian.
By the way, the oldest known documented case of the Indic branch of Indo-European comes from the Mitanni of 15th-13th century BC northern Syria who spoke a Sanskrit-like language. These people were described as blonde-haired and gray-eyed whites which may lend some credence to the blonde Aryan belief. No doubt this represents a wave of 'white' Syrians.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I don't see how we disagree?? If you read my previous post again, I did point out the fact that the Elamites and Persians were different peoples. As I said, the Elamites were the indigenes of the Iranian plateau long before the 'Iranians' proper that include Medes, Persians, Dahae, etc. appeared. As for Elamite relations to Dravidian, not much of the Elamite script has been left but from what has been gathered the Elamite language is not found to be closely related to any other known language thus making it a language isolate; however, there does seem to be a distant affinity with Dravidian.
By the way, the oldest known documented case of the Indic branch of Indo-European comes from the Mitanni of 15th-13th century BC northern Syria who spoke a Sanskrit-like language. These people were described as blonde-haired and gray-eyed whites which may lend some credence to the blonde Aryan belief. No doubt this represents a wave of 'white' Syrians.
Actually, I think certain Dravidians scholars would disagree with your assessment of Elamite. Some scholars have said what you agree with while others say otherwise.
Secondly, the Maitanni were certainly never ever described as "blonde haired" and "gray eyed". I can guarantee you that. Neither were the Daae Derbikes and other early Indic Iranian people of Persia who spoke Indic Iranian. Herodotus and others claimed that the Achamenids came from the Daaoi or Daae. They were the same people that are described as black in the Rig Veda and other Schytho Indic or Scytho-Aryan texts.
In the Rig Vedas, Indra proclaims in Veda X 49, he has "deprived the Dasyu race of the name of Arya" and "Indra who slayed Vritra and stormed towns has destoyed the troops of the black Dasas..." II 20 , 6 and 7 Encyclopaedia Indica Volume 12 by Shyam Singh Shashi, p. 121.
Also the Rig Veda also speaks many of the destruction of the pura or tripura triple walled fortresses of th Dasas which were in fact built by the early Daae or Persians in Central Asia.
Let us not forget that the so called "semitic" dialects are still believed by many "scholars" to be of Eurasiatic origin. Herodotus makes clear the people that adopted the Aryan name from the Mede were the people who were "Scyths" or Scytho Haumovera Soma using Scythians who wore cone like hats. The latter had nothing to do with the Achaemenids.
The name of the tribe Daae Daoi or Dahae has long been thought to be the root of the word Dasya or Dasa. (See Shashi p. 90)
The Daae were also called Scythians in Iran after a certain point like the Medes and Jats after the Achaemenid period. That, however, doesn't take away the fact that their were originally "black Jats", Medes and Dasas (Daae). Hence the phrase "black Scyths" and "black Zotti" (Jati) etc.
One of the most important points you make, however, is the fact that Maitanni is known to have been related to Sanskrit which is in fact thought to have come from and been closely related to Prakrit - a dialect which according to early Hindu writings came from the "Mlecchas".
Lastly - there is some controversy over when the Indo-European and Indic Iranian came from and when it started as well as over the start of the Maitanni Empire. This is related to problems over the chronology of ancient Mesopotamia. There are numerous scholars, aside from Egyptologist David Rohl, that are bringing up alternate chronologies of the Near East including Egypt and especially Mesopotamia. Some of them for good reason have said the history of Syria and Mesoptamia has to have been several hundred years later than what has been tradtionally accepted.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
All kinds of excuses have arisen about why the Dasyu are called black. For example one excuse is that it was "symbolic".
"Indra, the slayer of Vrittra, the destroyer of cities, has scattered the Dasyu sprang from a black womb." Rig Veda II 20.6
"Active and bright have they come forth, impetuous in speed like bulls, Driving the black skin far away. 2 Quelling the riteless Dasyu, may we think upon the bridge of bliss, Leaving the bridge of woe behind." (9.xli.1: book 9, hymn XLI, verse 1)"
In reality Indra was none other than Intauruta of Maitanni was none other than Thaur or Thawr (the bull) of the early and modern Arabian "Semites" and all of the Aryan deities similarly can be traced to the early Afro semitic deities especially Amurru genealogies of kings.
It would not be surprising if the Maitanni dialect developed as a result of these early semitic speakers settling amongst Ural Altaic speakers.
Asko Parpola a famous "Indologist" was convinced that the Dasas were the pre-Vedic “carriers of the Bronze Age culture of Greater Iran”. Parpola is also the organizer of the 12th World Sanskrit conference of 2003.
Naturally, as with Martin Bernal his work has been somewhat frantically attacked.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Actually, I think certain Dravidians scholars would disagree with your assessment of Elamite. Some scholars have said what you agree with while others say otherwise.
Yes, well the relation of Elamite is still a matter of conjecture.
quote:Secondly, the Maitanni were certainly never ever described as "blonde haired" and "gray eyed". I can guarantee you that. Neither were the Daae Derbikes and other early Indic Iranian people of Persia who spoke Indic Iranian. Herodotus and others claimed that the Achamenids came from the Daaoi or Daae. They were the same people that are described as black in the Rig Veda and other Schytho Indic or Scytho-Aryan texts.
The Mitanni were portrayed by Egyptians as pale-skinned with blonde hair and light eyes. I'm not going to generalize and say all Indo-Iranian speaking peoples looked like that as was the old 'Nordic Aryan race' theory but that was the descripition of the Mitanni and still is for rural Dardic peoples including the Nuris of Afghanistan and northeast Pakistan. Most Indo-Iranian speakers are of course dark-haired. I think you are confusing the Dahae with the aboriginal Dasyu and Dasasof the Rig-Veda.
quote:In the Rig Vedas, Indra proclaims in Veda X 49, he has "deprived the Dasyu race of the name of Arya" and "Indra who slayed Vritra and stormed towns has destoyed the troops of the black Dasas..." II 20 , 6 and 7 Encyclopaedia Indica Volume 12 by Shyam Singh Shashi, p. 121.
Also the Rig Veda also speaks many of the destruction of the pura or tripura triple walled fortresses of th Dasas which were in fact built by the early Daae or Persians in Central Asia.
Let us not forget that the so called "semitic" dialects are still believed by many "scholars" to be of Eurasiatic origin. Herodotus makes clear the people that adopted the Aryan name from the Mede were the people who were "Scyths" or Scytho Haumovera Soma using Scythians who wore cone like hats. The latter had nothing to do with the Achaemenids.
The name of the tribe Daae Daoi or Dahae has long been thought to be the root of the word Dasya or Dasa. (See Shashi p. 90)
The Daae were also called Scythians in Iran after a certain point like the Medes and Jats after the Achaemenid period. That, however, doesn't take away the fact that their were originally "black Jats", Medes and Dasas (Daae). Hence the phrase "black Scyths" and "black Zotti" (Jati) etc.
Again, I don't think the Dahae of the Iranian plateau were the same as the Dasas of the Indian subcontinent. Although I don't doubt that blacks were aboriginal to both regions. Also, I thought "black Scyths" was a description of clothing like the traditional attire worn by the Nuristani unless you are speaking of a people similart to if not the same as the black Huns you mentioned before.
quote:One of the most important points you make, however, is the fact that Maitanni is known to have been related to Sanskrit which is in fact thought to have come from and been closely related to Prakrit - a dialect which according to early Hindu writings came from the "Mlecchas".
Lastly - there is some controversy over when the Indo-European and Indic Iranian came from and when it started as well as over the start of the Maitanni Empire. This is related to problems over the chronology of ancient Mesopotamia. There are numerous scholars, aside from Egyptologist David Rohl, that are bringing up alternate chronologies of the Near East including Egypt and especially Mesopotamia. Some of them for good reason have said the history of Syria and Mesoptamia has to have been several hundred years later than what has been tradtionally accepted.
Yes, I created a thread last year about Rohl and his findings. Hopefully I can find it again.
quote: All kinds of excuses have arisen about why the Dasyu are called black. For example one excuse is that it was "symbolic".
"Indra, the slayer of Vrittra, the destroyer of cities, has scattered the Dasyu sprang from a black womb." Rig Veda II 20.6
"Active and bright have they come forth, impetuous in speed like bulls, Driving the black skin far away. 2 Quelling the riteless Dasyu, may we think upon the bridge of bliss, Leaving the bridge of woe behind." (9.xli.1: book 9, hymn XLI, verse 1)"
In reality Indra was none other than Intauruta of Maitanni was none other than Thaur or Thawr (the bull) of the early and modern Arabian "Semites" and all of the Aryan deities similarly can be traced to the early Afro semitic deities especially Amurru genealogies of kings.
It would not be surprising if the Maitanni dialect developed as a result of these early semitic speakers settling amongst Ural Altaic speakers.
Asko Parpola a famous "Indologist" was convinced that the Dasas were the pre-Vedic “carriers of the Bronze Age culture of Greater Iran”. Parpola is also the organizer of the 12th World Sanskrit conference of 2003.
Naturally, as with Martin Bernal his work has been somewhat frantically attacked.
I must disagree here. Indo-Iranian is a branch of the Indo-European phylum. Whatever non Aryan influence that can be seen in Iran and Syria comes from the Elamite and Uratian peoples respectively with Semitic influence among both via Mesopotamia.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Before responding to the above I would have to know which Aryans and Indo-Iranians you were speaking of. The Dahae or Daasa of early Iran, the Caucasus and Central Asia or the later fair-skinned Scythians who settled within their sphere of influence adopting their Gods and the name "Arya".
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ All the above, since 'Arya' was the designation of Indo-Iranic peoples in general. Though I'm still not certain if Dasa could be called Aryans as they were considered non-Aryans, though there is the theory they represent some early form of Indo-Iranic culture in the subcontinent.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Even Wikipedia got it nearly right this time.
"The Jat people and Meds have been the oldest occupants of Sind. The first Persian account of the 11th-century Mujmat ut-Tawarikh (1026), originally an ancient work in Sanskrit, mentions Jats and Meds as the ancient tribe of Sind and calls them the descendants of Ham, the son of Noah."
The Tawarikh was written in "Persia" or Iran and what is interesting is that the Scytho-Iranians were the first to invent the notion of Ham being black and cursed because of drink (Hauma). Thus it is Iranians themselves called the descendants of the Medes black. Around the ther 9th c. another "Persian" wrote "Moses was of black (or dark brown) complexion, lank hair and tall stature as if he was from the people of Az-Zutt (Jatts)." Sahih Bukhari vol. 4 Book 55, Number 649. Collected by Bukhari of of 9th century Uzbekistan.
The original Medes were pushed southward from places like Kanguvar (northwest Iran) after the 7th century B.C. The name Kanga among the Jats is related and is possibly the root of the word "Tchangi" or Tzingani an early word for the gypsies and Zangi or Zanj in the Bundehism . The Zang (Kang) were originally the "Black" descendants of Az Dahakka in Iran pushed into the sea. Who is made evil in the Bundehism and other Scytho-Iranian texts like the Da'asa in the Vedas.
Today even many of the Jatts are fair-skinned thinking themselves the original Jatts or az Zutti.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Actually Indi Iranic peoples were not all called Arya. Just as all Germans, Goths and Getae were not originally Indo-Iranian.
Like the Scythians, Indic Iranians were of all sorts judging from their skeletal and cultural evidence. Red haired people of brachcycephalic, head form, dark haired prominent nosed people of brachycephalic head form and dark-skinned Dahae or Persian/Medes people to name a few. Medes were the original Aryans according to Herodotus.
Thus even the Rig Veda X 49 proclaims, Indra has "deprived the Dasyu race of the name of Arya".
Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: If you want to get laughed out of a history seminar present evidence like that Dana.
Evidence of what - that early authors believed certain Africans to have once lived in Syria and Arabia.
That's all thats being proposed here, but someone of your logic who knows nothing but how to project their shortcomings onto others would never be able to understand that.
The evidence for that is virtually indisputable. The dominant languages spoken in the region have an African origin. Semitic tongue originated within East Africa.
Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Dana, the civil rights issue made a trun in the late sixties. After all the legislation passed under LBJ and Nixon the debate switched from rights to outcomes. Most white American had changed their views by 1965 and supported the "rights" legislation. After 1968 the issue bacame "outcomes" and on this issue even moderate americans who had supported the rights legislation were much less suportive of outcomes. There is very little overt racism left in the mainstream white community. Most seldom think about black people at all one way or the other.
If you're a ordinary honest white American male, I don't want to meet a liar. What Dana is suggesting isn't false, the disparity of Blacks and Whites is greater now than prior the civil rights:
Welcome to a failed state of America!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Indeed. And the very root cause of such social disparities is socialism marked by government programs under the guise of "progressive" policies. You would think that as a so-called 'conservative' American, Hammered would know this but of course it is white males like him that give conservatism and especially the Republican party a bad name! Unfortunately it is the 'liberal' white racists from the left-wing that are more dangerous as they were the ones that intalled government policies which destroy minority communities especially blacks.
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Evidence of what - that early authors believed certain Africans to have once lived in Syria and Arabia.
That's all thats being proposed here, but someone of your logic who knows nothing but how to project their shortcomings onto others would never be able to understand that.
The evidence for that is virtually indisputable. The dominant languages spoken in the region have an African origin. Semitic tongue originated within East Africa.
Of course only one with the most basic and rudimentary knowledge of history and linguistics would know that Semitic is the only branch of the Afro-asiatic language phylum that is spoken outside of Africa, add to this the simple fact of geography that Southwest Asia (particularly the Levant and Arabia) is right next to Africa, then it is not inconceivable that black African populations were present in that region! Of course we are dealing with the deranged mind of a booze hammered 'professor'.
Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Painting entitled: Kabyle, by Adolf SCHREYER (1828 - 1899)
Who should frankly be ashamed of himself for observing a Kabyle man in such a fashion. He should have foreseen that this degree of "Negroidity" is unacceptable to Negrophobes.
"Kabyle"
Now this 1860s depiction from "Enfants Kabyles" is much more acceptable. More Fulani like - no?
By Isidore-Alexandre-Augustin Pils
1834 - “The Kabyles…dress like the Arabs and a part from a few tribes, are brown complexioned and black haired” stated by Thomas Campbell; cited on p. 109 of Barbary and Enlightenment: European Attitudes Toward the Maghreb in the 18th Century, Ann Thomson. Published 1987 by E. J. Bull
1842 - "The Kabyles are described as being about the middle height, with brown complexions, sometimes verging on black... System of Universal Geography, founded on the Works of Malte-Brun and Balbi, p. 842.
1887 - "The Kabyles of the Algerian and Tunisian territories are the most industrious inhabitants of the Barabary States,...They are of middle stature; their complexion is brown, and sometimes nearly black." p. 101 of The Gospel in All Lands
Interest quotes. Modern Kabyles tend to look more "European" than Southern Europeans. The majority of the present coastal population would fit in with Southern Europeans, on the other hand.
That likely suggests a European influx, which was tied to the slave trade. It is documented that Christians were often taken as far as Northern Europe and many were Slavs as well, which explains the present physical traits amongst the Kabyles.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Yes - it would appear that modern fair-skinned Kabyles or at least the ones shown in books and the upper classes immigrating to France and other places ar more numerous. But, one has to wonder how many of the darker ones that lived in "Numidian" style habitats are still there.
The exact quote from the 1890 Encyclopedia Britannica says, "...They live in huts made of branches of trees and covered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old Numidians…They are of middle stature, their complexion brown and sometimes nearly black.” 1890
I have personally seen some of them at a cultural event in the U.S. and noticed they dance with their shoulders like peoples of the Eritrean/Ethiopian region.
Ignorance concerning them is also a matter of sociopolitics and what the historical presence of Ottomans and French colonials had on the class and power structure in Algeria.
What is the most distrurbing thing though is that most so-called historical "scholars" from Europe can write books without mentioning the the fact that there were or are two obviously different Kabyle populations, not only appearance-wise, but culturally-speaking.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
More 19th century writings
The known Hyksos rulers or shepherd-kings recorded by Eusebius, Josephus, Syncellus and even Leo Africanus, included Salatis, Khyan (Janias of Josephus), Apachnas (Chacfoun) and Apopi I(whom Herodotus claims was Epaphus) and Archles (whom was probably the one the Greeks called Hercules).
The Zenata or Iforas Tuareg claim descent from Afra or Ifren son of Chana or Djana (Khian? or Ian-re?) son of Yahyah son of Salatis or Isletan son of Warsak son of Dari son of Chacfoun (Apachnas) son of Bendouad or Adidat (Hadid) son of Imla son of Guerad son of Maghdis son of Herek son of Mazigh a great grandson of Badyan son of Canaan. recorded by Ibn Khaldun and found in MacMichael's History of the Arabs vol. II and other places.
The below first and second paragraph are from The Origin of Pagan Idolatry Ascertained from Historical Testimony... published 1816
“Others of the expelled Shepherds took refuge in the most western regions of Africa, which the Romans called Mauritania, and which at present are known by the appellation of Marocco. Hence we find also an Ethiopia or Cusha-dwip on the shores of the Atlantic, no less than on those of the Erythraean ocean. This land is plainly that to which Homer alludes, when he speaks of the Ethiopians as being divided into two nations; the one dwelling far to the east, and the other as far to the west’. And so accordingly, his language is interpreted by his imitator Virgil; when he describes the Ethiopians , as being the last nation towards the setting Sun and as tenanting the shores of the ocean. These western Ethiopians were by the Greeks usually called Atlantians, from their great god and sacred mountain Atlas: but the Atlantians are acknowledged by Diodorus to have been Ethiopians. The whole substance and all the sacred names of their mythology were the same as those of Greece and Phenicia: and I may particularly notice, that the hero-god Atlas, who communicated his appellation to them was a prince no less of Hellas and Palestine than of Ethiopic Mauritania. This coincidence arose from the common origination of the Danai, the Palistim, and the Atlantians, they were all of the same stock as the Cuthic shepherd kings of Egypt “ p. 595
Footnote. 4 of p. 595 "The fact was that the Ethiopians of Mauritania and of Hindustan were brethren by descent and were addicted to the very same superstition. Diold. Bibl. Lib. Iii.p. 201. Accordingly, there was a tradition, that the Mauritanians were the descendants of certain Indians, who had migrated into western Africa with Hercules. Strab. Geog. Lib. Xvii. P. 828.”’
1874 - John Denison Baldwin - “We have seen, in another place, that the whole Asiatic region on the Mediterranean was anciently a part of Ethiopia or the Land of Cush and that Joppa (Iopia), one of the most ancient Phoenician cities, was the royal city of ‘Kepheus the Ethiopian.’ Among the notes to Hamilton and Falconer’s version of Strabo are the following: ‘We have before remarked that the Ethiopia visited by Menelaus was not the country above Egypt, but an Ethiopia lying aroung Jaffa, the ancient ‘Joppa’ Again: The name of Ethiopians, given by Ephorus to fugitive Canaanites, confirms what we have before stated, that the environs of Jaffa, and possibly the entire of Palestine, anciently bore the name of Ethiopia… The most ancient Greeks in their writings and traditions knew nothing of that name Phoenicians, but they did know and use such names as Ethiopians, Sidonians, and Aradians. Ethiopia was the term most commonly applied to the country afterwards called Phoenicia; and this term as an appellation to describe some of the communities and districts that were under Phoenician control, did not pass out of use until after the beginning of the Christian Era.” p. 133-134 Pre-Historic Nations or Inquiries John D. Concerning Some of the Great Peoples and…
1896 - "The name of Aurighia is indeed given to one of the principal dialects of the Tamashek language, and from the Aouragh. Ibn Khaldun, traces the great Berber divisions of Sanhadja and Lamta. This powerful race anciently inhabited the sea coast, and may have given their name to the country around Carthage." p. 193 Vol 1 The History and Description of Africa by Leo Africanus the Haklyut Society Brown and John Pory, 1896
A Tuareg of Niger.
The Tuareg of Niger are mainly Auelimidden or Lamtuna of the Sanhaja. Like most Berbers Tuareg range in complexion from black to yellowish. Most Tuareg are however still dark brown close to the color of their "Ethiopian ancestors".
They claim descent from the Phoenicians and their script "TiFinagh" means belonging to the Phoenicians, i.e. the "fugitives from Canaan".
Posted by LocDiva (Member # 13393) on :
Personally I would appreciate any portrayal that showed black realities, instead of European or Asian or Indian fantasies Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Doug - I think you are correct that America needed to redefine what "a Moor" was, although early Moors coming to America were also described as blacks and dark brown...
I find this strange. Exactly what compelled America to try to change the definition of 'Moor'?? I find racism to be a poor excuse as even Europeans were also racist but never needed to deny the very definition of Moor to be black!
I remember in another of the many threads we have in this forum on the topic of Moors, Doug or someone else posted an old article about a West African slave who was mistaken for a Moor simply because he was Muslim and was fluent in Arabic! You would think such a historical American fact would click to some minds. Then again, we have idiots like Hammered who are in a perpetual state of denial even to dismiss all the European historical documentation as well as artwork let alone the very etymology and definition of the name 'Moor'!
By the way Dana, I remember back in high school in a literature class my [white] literature teacher reading some Spanish letters I believe just before the Columbus expedition. The letter was written by a Spanish royal or some other elite where he said something to the likes of "we have already washed away the black stain of the Moors". Do you know what I'm speaking of? If so, do you know the source or can you post it?
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Doug - I think you are correct that America needed to redefine what "a Moor" was, although early Moors coming to America were also described as blacks and dark brown...
I find this strange. Exactly what compelled America to try to change the definition of 'Moor'?? I find racism to be a poor excuse as even Europeans were also racist but never needed to deny the very definition of Moor to be black!
I remember in another of the many threads we have in this forum on the topic of Moors, Doug or someone else posted an old article about a West African slave who was mistaken for a Moor simply because he was Muslim and was fluent in Arabic! You would think such a historical American fact would click to some minds. Then again, we have idiots like Hammered who are in a perpetual state of denial even to dismiss all the European historical documentation as well as artwork let alone the very etymology and definition of the name 'Moor'!
By the way Dana, I remember back in high school in a literature class my [white] literature teacher reading some Spanish letters I believe just before the Columbus expedition. The letter was written by a Spanish royal or some other elite where he said something to the likes of "we have already washed away the black stain of the Moors". Do you know what I'm speaking of? If so, do you know the source or can you post it?
Actually I do think I have heard something of this sort, however, there are, of course, hundreds of references to Moors being called Negro or black by Spanish and other Europeans. Of course, black to Hammered and other kinds of ahistorical people claim the word black didn't necessarily mean dark skinned.
As the Civil Rights era bloomed and the freedom of colonial subjects around the world sought their freedom, historians in America and other researchers (and that of course excludes Hammered), in the last century or so, began to claim "Moor" has always meant just "a Muslim" or a moderately dark- skinned or swarthy person from North Africa - obviously because of the distinguished meaning they attribute to it.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Moor had a specific legal meaning in 18th and 19th century USA. Iinm there were actually some sort of charter drawn up between the Moorish Americans and the USA government but I can't recall if it was linked to the USA war against the Barbary pirates or not.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Yes - Moorish American societies still exist in the U.S. People called the Delaware Moors are said to be descended from early shipwrecked Moors. "In 1639, The First black recorded by name on the Delmar va Peninsula was called Anthony. He was delivered near present day Wilmington (Delaware). He was often described as "an Angoler or Moor," and called "Blackamoor." From the "Delaware’s Forgotten Folk" The Story of the Moors & Nanticokes by C.A. Weslager"
Here the word "Moor" is obviously equated with "Angolan".
There were societies also further south who descended from other early Muslim Africans who were called Moors by the whites.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
quote:
In the House of Representatives January 20th 1790 A petition was presented to the House from Sundry Free Moors, Subjects of the Emperor of Morocco; and residents in this State, praying that in case they should Commit Any Fault amenable to be brought to Justice, that they as Subjects to a Prince in Alliance with the United States of America, may be tried under the same Laws as the Citizens of this State would be liable to be tried, and not under the Negro Act, which was received and read.
[The humble Petition of Francis, Daniel, Hammond and Samuel, (Free Moors) in behalf of themselves and their wives Fatima, Flora, Sarah and
(page) 364 House Journal 4 January 1790- 20 January 1790
Clarinda, Humbly Sheweth That your Petitioners some years past had the misfortune while fighting in the defence of their Country, to be captured with their wives and made prisoners of War by one of the Kings of Africa. That a certain Captain Clark had them delivered to him on a promise that they should be redeemed by the Emperor of Morocco’s Ambassador then residing in England, in order to have them returned to their own Country: Instead of which he brought them to this State, and sold them for slaves. Since that period they have by the greatest industry been enabled to purchase their freedom from their respective Masters: And now prayeth your Honorable House, That as free born subjects of a Prince now in Alliance with these United States; that they may not be considered as subject to a Law of this State (now in force) called the negro law: but if they should unfortunately be guilty of any crime or misdemeanor against the Laws of the Land, that they may have a just trial by a Lawful Jury. And your Petitioners as in duty bound will ever pray.]
Ordered That it be referred to a Committee, the following Gentlemen were accordingly appointed, Mr. Justice Grimke, General Pinckney & Mr. Edward Rutledge.
. . . .
Mr. Edwd. Rutledge reported from the Committee to whom was referred the petition of the Free Moors, which he read in his place and afterwards delivered it in at the Clerks Table where it was again read for information.
Ordered That it be taken into immediate Consideration which being read through was agreed to and is as follows Viz.
Report That they have Considered the same and are of opinion that no Law of this State can in its Construction or Operation apply to them, and that persons
(page) 374 House Journal 4 January 1790-20 January 1790
who were Subjects of the Emperor of Morocco being Free in this State are not triable by the Law for the better Ordering and Governing of Negroes and other Slaves.
Resolved That this House do agree with the Report.[i]
The State Records of South Carolina Journals of the HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 1789-1790
SC Dept. of Archives and History 8301 Parklane Road Columbia, SC 29223
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Very interesting! So Moors were more prominent in American history than I thought...
Hey Hammered, is the 18th century congressional document that Takruri presented above part of the 'historical method'?! Is that proof enough for you?!! LOL Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
yeah - that is interesting, including the fact that one of the women is named Fatima.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Funny thing In the auto-biography of Malcom X he and his boy used to run a game on certain clubs off limits to Black people by simply dressing in sheets and a head rap,spoke in a phony accent and be addmitted in white sociaty high life.
Also in one of Rogers,books he made mention of the Saudi king on a state visit and the consternation it caused when he found what looks to be his own people as the,he left un-convinced that these were somehow not he people,The staff being made up of African Americans or to used Roger's words Negroes.
From another source this took place on board a US destroyer
The Arabs were particu-larly puzzled by the Negro mess-boys on board who, they assumed,must be Arabs and to whom they insisted on speaking Arabic since the only Negroes whom they had ever known were those who had been brought to Arabia as slaves many years ago. With difficulty theywere persuaded that these mess-boys were not only American citizensbut as much a part of the Navy and of the United States as any oftheir white shipmates http://www.amideast.org/publications/FDR_Meets_Ibn_Saud.pdf Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
alTakruri has provided us with an important document from the State Records of South Carolina, dated 1789-1790.
So let us not be like the US Security system in not being able to connect the dots!
The American Moors . the Louisiana Creoles . the Gullah . are all African Americans.
Michelle Obama has Gullah relatives...I have Creole relatives; and we both have Yoruba, Akan, etc., etc.,...heritages
--dots connected: African Americans are a Pan-African people in our ancestral heritage. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Yes - it would appear that modern fair-skinned Kabyles or at least the ones shown in books and the upper classes immigrating to France and other places ar more numerous. But, one has to wonder how many of the darker ones that lived in "Numidian" style habitats are still there.
The exact quote from the 1890 Encyclopedia Britannica says, "...They live in huts made of branches of trees and covered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old Numidians…They are of middle stature, their complexion brown and sometimes nearly black.” 1890
I have personally seen some of them at a cultural event in the U.S. and noticed they dance with their shoulders like peoples of the Eritrean/Ethiopian region.
Ignorance concerning them is also a matter of sociopolitics and what the historical presence of Ottomans and French colonials had on the class and power structure in Algeria.
What is the most distrurbing thing though is that most so-called historical "scholars" from Europe can write books without mentioning the the fact that there were or are two obviously different Kabyle populations, not only appearance-wise, but culturally-speaking.
^ This blatant ignoring of the facts concerning the existence of black Kabyle is nothing more than a Euro-imperialist tactic to white-wash North Africa. One of our informative posters here once explained how the same tactic was done to his home country of South Africa where 'Bantus' were spoken of by Afrikaners as 'late-comers' to the area despite living there millennia before Euros even arrived, while the aboriginal Khoisan were described as somehow not really black but a different race altogether and since the Khoisan of the Cape coasts have intermarried and mixed with European settlers, that gave whites a certain claim to the land not unlike the claims some white Americans make via alleged Native American ancestry. In East African countries and even Rwanda, certain groups were favored by Europeans due to certain facial features which likened their own and were called "Hamitic" and therefore not really 'negroid'. The fact that there are actual white Berber speakers only made it easy for Euros to white-wash all North African natives as "caucasian".
Posted by Mazigh (Member # 8621) on :
But, don't post several replies... just one by one;
I don't see what is wrong with discussing the Moors, but this topic has already been discussed ad infinitum. No point in rediscussing it.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by argyle104: --------------------------------- ----------------------------------
Kobe Bryant does not look like a Fulani. Get your facts straight.
Of course this Fulani looks like Kobe Bryant.
Kobe Bryant!
And that's my subjective opinion, Thank you! Not fact!
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
[/IMG] [qb][QUOTE]"This blatant ignoring of the facts concerning the existence of black Kabyle is nothing more than a Euro-imperialist tactic to white-wash ..."
Truthfully put and my thoughts exactly.
Posted by Mazigh (Member # 8621) on :
I said we should re-discuss it, because i saw you beginning from "dictinaries" ending with Maures of the late ages.
The dictionaries might be useful when it comes to "words", but almost useless when it comes to "Foreign names" like "Mauris".
(I didn't follow the discussion, because it was hard to follow, long (form) and too open/wide (inforamtions)).
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
The word Mauri is a Latin word regardless of where it originated and what it means or how it was used by speakers of Latin is not open to question.
The word Mazike was also a name that was used by one Berber tribe in ancient times and the fact that it is used now for all Berber nationals is not going to change history or the skeletons in the Mazike tombs.
Why don't you make ur point here.
Posted by Mazigh (Member # 8621) on :
"The word Mauri is a Latin word regardless of where it originated "
Can you explain a bit more?
"The word Mazike was also a name that was used by one Berber tribe in ancient times and the fact that it is used now for all Berber nationals"
I don't believe this. Can you give an eliminating source?
Thanks in advance
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: "The word Mauri is a Latin word regardless of where it originated "
Can you explain a bit more?
What I meant was the word is uesed in Latin, even if it originated elsewhere. I am not sure where. Some have suggested it is Phoenician (Canaanite) in origin.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: "The word Mazike was also a name that was used by one Berber tribe in ancient times and the fact that it is used now for all Berber nationals"
I don't believe this. Can you give an eliminating source?
Thanks in advance
Did u mean illuminating source? Actually there a number of sources which I think I have already mentioned several places throughout this forum.
I will mention a few early sources below.
The word "Mazikes" is used for a particular population in the deserts of Tripolitania and Tunis in Roman times and one of many tribes. They are sometimes called Mauri Mazazeces and categorized as "Ethiopians".
See S. Gsell La Tripolitaine et le Sahara au troisieme siecle de notre ere," in Mem. Acad. Inscr. XLIII (1933)
They are mentioned as the Mauri Mazazeces in the Latercolus Veronensis (Verona List of North African Provinces). see also Le Fin de Maroc Romaine, by Jerome Carocopino. In Melange d'Archeologie and d'Histoire vol 57, 1940
The Mazikes (Imazighen or Amazigh) and are always listed with other tribes of Mauri or Berbers in the texts of Byzantine Roman times through the 19th century even by colonialists. Therefore it is safe to assume it was the name of a tribe originally and not just a nationality.
Of course the name Mazigh is in fact said to have been the name of a "Canaanite" leader from which came the tribal name.
This tradition has been cited by many people ancient and modern.
"The Shellooh it must be observed are a clanspeople and great genealogists. They call themselves the descendants of Mazigh son of Canaan..." p. 263 Penny Cyclopedeia of the Society for the Diffusion of Useful Knowledge. Volum 3-4. 1835
also found in The Tuareg Veil 1926 HR Palmer, The Geographical Journal, Vol. 68, No. 5 (Nov., 1926), pp. 412-418
Posted by Mazigh (Member # 8621) on :
Thanks for the explanation. I think the Mauri were a part of the Imazighen not the contrary. But this would be another discussion.
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