posted
i think the only reason it is being linked to the Green Sahara is the timing - a big population expansion around the beginning of the Holocene. beyond that yeah i don't see what would exclude the Sudanian zone.
re Bantu expansion there is a lot of shared ancestry and the close relationship of languages so yeah you need a lot of people to have started spreading from a limited area. but how it began AFAIK has never been established archaeologically, not till the beginning of the Iron Age (or at best just prior) do we have any kind of solid trail and that from multiple centres. then lots of subsequent movements, expansions, and contacts between different groups (who have picked up additional regional ancestry and cultural elements).
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
Will be interesting to see how much of the Negro-Egyptian commonalities can be explained by this.
I don't recall the specifics but I remember Asar saying something about how this map isn't anything close to cannon. I took that as you could move it to the side and go with the Green Sahara model with the 'Niger-Congo' relation to IE. Last I heard it is what Mboli's working on. When I wrote the movie script set in the Predynastic I assumed something like that map with Robert Bauval's location for Yam in black Genesis. I theorized that the the west African phenotype was initially more common in Yam, Temeh of Libya and Ta Mehu of lower Egypt than in upper Egypt.
I remember when Robert Bauval stated that
quote: 'Egyptians' were from a black Sub-Saharan race coming from the Tibesti mountains in northern Chad some 12,500 years ago.
It was controversialish I guess. I took it as, Yam was a population hub. It's founding and desertification were both periods of shared ancestry with the Nile Valley.
Its ironic. The closest thing to a true negro element in ancient Egypt came from the bible's Ham which I wager is a reference to Yam. The Hamitic hypothesis was jackboot pseudo science that even contradicted the bible. No surprise that it will end up being the complete opposite of right.
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I don't recall the specifics but I remember Asar saying something about how this map isn't anything close to cannon. I took that as you could move it to the side and go with the Green Sahara model with the 'Niger-Congo' relation to IE. Last I heard it is what Mboli's working on. When I wrote the movie script set in the Predynastic I assumed something like that map with Robert Bauval's location for Yam in black Genesis. I theorized that the the west African phenotype was initially more common in Yam, Temeh of Libya and Ta Mehu of lower Egypt than in upper Egypt.
I remember when Robert Bauval stated that
quote: 'Egyptians' were from a black Sub-Saharan race coming from the Tibesti mountains in northern Chad some 12,500 years ago.
It was controversialish I guess. I took it as, Yam was a population hub. It's founding and desertification were both periods of shared ancestry with the Nile Valley.
Its ironic. The closest thing to a true negro element in ancient Egypt came from the bible's Ham which I wager is a reference to Yam. The Hamitic hypothesis was jackboot pseudo science that even contradicted the bible. No surprise that it will end up being the complete opposite of right. [/qb]
The physical anthro evidence seems to be suggest something to that effect. Preliminary skeletal analyses on people to the southwest of Egypt suggests a NC presence starting specifically around 1st Intermediate/Middle Kingdom times.
Take your foot off the pedal and stop getting banned. Phenotype/archaeology sciences is sketchy but you can at least substantiate it with collaborating evidence. Phenotype narrative is just coded nonsense.
If 'negroids' are new Egypt and Sumer are the mother and father of all of Earth's negroids.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The physical anthro evidence seems to be suggest something to that effect. Preliminary skeletal analyses on people to the southwest of Egypt suggests a NC presence starting specifically around 1st Intermediate/Middle Kingdom times.
I knew about this. I just didn't know how long they were testing. Correct if I'm wrong it wasn't just Roman era burials tested at Dakhleh.
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^Here is a quote summing up the results of the small Handessi skeletal sample. From Becker’s 2011 thesis:
quote:Simon et al. (2002) reported that the measurements and expressions of the relevant non-metric traits of the oldest skeleton from the Wadi Shaw, the Wavy Line phase individual 83/110-11, lay within the range of those published for the Late Pleistocene Wadi Halfa series. The metric analysis of the best preserved crania of the Wadi Shaw sample highlighted both the remarkable variability and the biologically Sub-Saharan nature of these three much younger Handessi period skulls. The principal component analysis on the basis of 29 metric variables, which also included Nubian Kerma period and Egyptian New Kingdom samples, allied 83/110-15 with the Kenyan Teita, placed 83/110-18-1 closest to Chamlah’s (1968) Saharan “restes humains neolithiques et protohistoriques” and positioned 83/110-14 between the Teita and the Saharan material. . . .
The prehistoric inhabitants of the Wadi Howar : an anthropological study of human skeletal remains from the Sudanese part of the Eastern Sahara
Note where it says that the Handessi remains had “remarkable variability”. Sounds iike new migration from a NC population, to me.
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re early contacts i recall hearing of red palm oil found in an Abydos tomb dating to c 3000 BC. i wonder where that came from.
been trying to learn more about Later Stone Age history of West Africa to tie to E-M2 but it's all loose threads right now. site of Bosumpra in southern Ghana going back ~12 000 years: geometric quartz microliths, greenstone celts with flaked bodies and polished edges, very early pottery as at Ounjougou. is all this LSA connected or just parallel adaptations?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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posted
Check for trade networking in items at one place that had to come from far away.
What gets me is Ounjougou pottery earliest in the area but Khartoum (dotted) wavy line pottery is what marks Sudani movement (technology, people, both) throughout the Sahara Grasslands.
About the palm oil. Nice. Budge, I know, is excellent for inner Africa and Lower Nile Valley connections.
quote:"Nazlet Khater man was the earliest modern human skeleton found near Luxor, in 1980. The remains was dated from between 35,000 and 30,000 years ago. The report regarding the racial affinity of this skeleton concludes: ”Strong alveolar prognathism combined with fossa praenasalis in an African skull is suggestive of Negroid morphology [form & structure]. The radio-humeral index of Nazlet Khater is practically the same as the mean of Taforalt (76.6). According to Ferembach (1965) this value is near to the Negroid average.” The burial was of a young man of 17-20 years old, whose skeleton lay in a 160cm- long narrow ditch aligned from east to west. A flint tool, which was laid carefully on the bottom of the grave, dates the burial as contemporaneous with a nearby flint quarry."
--Thoma A., Morphology and affinities of the Nazlet Khater man, Journal of Human Evolution, vol 13, 1984.
quote:"Indeed, the rare and incomplete Paleolithic to early Neolithic skeletal specimens found in Egypt—such as the 33,000-year-old Nazlet Khater specimen (Pinhasi and Semal 2000), the Wadi Kubbaniya skeleton from the late Paleolithic site in the upper Nile valley (Wendorf et al. 1986), the Qarunian (Faiyum) early Neolithic crania (Henneberg et al. 1989; Midant-Reynes 2000), and the Nabta specimen from the Neolithic Nabta Playa site in the western desert of Egypt (Henneberg et al. 1980)—show, with regard to the great African biological diversity, similarities with some of the sub-Saharan middle Paleolithic and modern sub-Saharan specimens. This affinity pattern between ancient Egyptians and sub-Saharans has also been noticed by several other investigators (Angel 1972; Berry and Berry 1967, 1972; Keita 1995) and has been recently reinforced by the study of Brace et al. (2005), which clearly shows that the cranial morphology of prehistoric and recent northeast African populations is linked to sub-Saharan populations (Niger-Congo populations). These results support the hypothesis that some of the Paleolithic–early Holocene populations from northeast Africa were probably descendents of sub-Saharan ancestral populations."
--F X Ricaut · M Waelkens
Article: Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements
Human Biology 11/2008; 80(5):535-64. DOI:10.3378/1534-6617-80.5.535 · 1.52 Impact Factor
quote: The study on the partial calvarium discovered at Manot Cave, Western Galilee, Israel (dated to 54.7 ± 5.5 kyr BP, Hershkovitz et al. 2015), revealed close morphological affinity with recent African skulls as well as with early Upper Paleolithic European skulls, but less so with earlier anatomically modern humans from the Levant (e.g., Skhul). The ongoing fieldwork at the Manot Cave has resulted in the discovery of several new hominin teeth. These include a lower incisor (I1), a right lower first deciduous molar (dm1), a left upper first deciduous molar (dm1) and an upper second molar (M2) all from area C (>32 kyr) and a right upper second molar (M2) from area E (>36 kyr). The current study presents metric and morphological data on the new Manot Cave teeth. These new data combined with our already existing knowledge on the Manot skull may provide an important insight on the Upper Paleolithic population of the Levant, its origin and dietary habits.
—Author(s): Rachel Sarig ; Ofer Marder ; Omry Barzilai ; Bruce Latimer ; Israel Hershkovitz
The Upper Paleolithic inhabitants of Manot Cave: the dental perspective (Year: 2017)
After the dispersal of modern humans Out of Africa, around 50–70 ky cal BP1,2,3,4 or earlier based on fossil evidence5, hominins with similar morphology to present-day humans appeared in the Western Eurasian fossil record around 45–40 ky cal BP, initiating the demographic transition from ancient human occupation [Neandertals] to modern human [Homo sapiens] expansion on to the continent1"
[...]
The haplogroup of PM1 falls within the U clade [Fig. 1B and Supplementary Table 3], which derived from the macro-haplogroup N possibly connected to the Out of Africa migration around 60–70 ky cal BP1,2,3,4. In line with this, the Peştera cu Oase individual that lived on the current territory of Romania, albeit slightly earlier than PM1 [37–42 ky cal BP] also displays haplogroup N9.
—Hervella et al. 2016
—Sarah Tishkoff et al.
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quote:Word Origin and History for Bantu Expand 1862, applied to south African language group in the 1850s by German linguist Wilhelm Heinrich Immanuel Bleek (1827-1875), from native Ba-ntu "mankind," from ba-, plural prefix, + ntu "a man, person." Bantustan in a South African context is from 1949.
quote: Bleek’s intellectual importance extends beyond his pioneering interests in Darwin’s theory of evolution and its application to the indigenous peoples in southern Africa. He was also responsible for setting up a system of classification based on language but one which intersected closely with race. This system of classification was based on clear distinctions between Bantu, Hottentot and Bushmen linguistic types and proposed that the study of these primitive languages was of universal importance in so far as they held the key to the understanding of the historical evolution of the three major branches of language spoken worldwide.
[...]
Bleek elaborated his system of classification during the 1860s and early 1870s. He characterised both “Hottentot” and “Bantu”, a term he coined, as sex-denoting languages, but suggested that they were clearly structurally distinct in so far as “Bantu” languages were prefix-pronominal and “Hottentot” languages were suffix-pronominal. In other words, the pronouns in the “Bantu” languages are borrowed from derivative prefixes to the nouns, whilst the pronouns in the “Hottentot” languages are borrowed from the derivative suffixes to the nouns.29 It was on the basis of these structural features that Bleek regarded these languages as “primary forms” of two of the world’s major philological branches, accounting for three-fifths of the languages known on earth: “Kafir, as giving us the key to the great mass of kindred Negro (Prefix-pronominal) languages which fill almost the whole of South Africa and extend at least as far to the north-west as Sierra Leone; and the Hottentot, as exhibiting the most primitive form known of that large tribe of [Suffix-pronominal] languages which is distinguished by its Sex-denoting qualities, which fills North Africa, Europe and part of Asia, which includes the languages of the most highly cultivated
[...]
The connections Bleek established between the Bantu languages of southern Africa and those elsewhere in Africa are, as far as I am aware, relatively uncontroversial. Bleek’s hypothesis that the “Hottentot” language was a primary form of North African and Indo-European languages was more speculative and is seen by Dubow as an early expression of the pervasive Hamitic myth of African origins. Bleek had formulated his theories about the North African origins of “Hottentot” languages well before arriving in South Africa. Thornton indicates that his doctoral study compared the gender systems of “Kafir”, Herero, Sechuana and Nama with Berber, Galla, Coptic and Ancient Egyptian in order to substantiate claims that the Nama (“Hottentot”) language was related to North African languages.31
The peculiar characteristics which distinguish the Hottentots and Bushmen from the other South African nations, are such as range them with the nations of Northern Africa and Western Asia, as the Egyptians, the Semitic tribes and their widespread North African relations (e.g. the Tuarick, Galla &c) and probably also the Indo-European or Arian nations. ... Since the Hottentots ... have in general retained, most faithfully, the primitive and original state of their race, in customs, manners, language &c, a study of their peculiarities must be regarded as eminently important, nay, indispensible for attaining a knowledge of the pre-historical condition and unrecorded history of their kindred nations; and as these comprise, in many cases, some of the most advanced and civilised nations, should we not be entitled to infer that such researches, if once properly made, will prove of great interest for the history of mankind in general?
[...]
Bleek’s active involvement in an anthropometric project initiated by Thomas Huxley, one of Britain’s leading anthropologists and proponents of evolution also provides evidence of his scientific racism and undermines the romantic image of Bleek presented by San scholarship. This aspect of Bleek’s research has been documented in Michael Godby’s exciting article in the Miscast edition, which provides a more balanced and critical perspective on Bleek.37
A few interesting notes, you probably will embrace:
Bleek’s writings that we see the beginnings of the shift towards the structures of thought that informed the intellectual racism in modern South Africa: its evolutionary assumptions and ideas of rigidly demarcated stages of human development, physical as well as cultural.
It also attempts to begin to provide a bridge between my own work on racial ideology in the first half of the nineteenth century and Saul Dubow’s detailed study of scientific racism in South Africa in the early twentieth century.
He explicitly expressed an interest in exploring the links between the language of the Bushman and the communication of primates and emphasised such links in his private correspondence and evolutionary study On the Origin of Language. It is arguably in Bleek’s writings that we see the beginnings of the shift towards the structures of thought that informed the intellectual racism in modern South Africa: its evolutionary assumptions and ideas of rigidly demarcated stages of human development, physical as well as cultural.
ANTHROPOLOGY, RACE AND EVOLUTION: RETHINKING THE LEGACY OF WILHELM BLEEK
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
The vast Saharan lakes are rarely tied into multidisciplinary approaches on this topic. This site shows local climate fluctuation in the Green Sahara and may help calibrate movements noted by the geneticists.
Note the extensive water system from the Haggar through east Air down to near the confluence of Benue and Niger rivers. A natural lane of communication.
quote: Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of Holocene Population and Environmental Change Paul C. Sereno et al
Abstract Background: Approximately two hundred human burials were discovered on the edge of a paleolake in Niger that provide a uniquely preserved record of human occupation in the Sahara during the Holocene (8000 BCE to the present). Called Gobero, this suite of closely spaced sites chronicles the rapid pace of biosocial change in the southern Sahara in response to severe climatic fluctuation.
Methodology/Principal Findings: Two main occupational phases are identified that correspond with humid intervals in the early and mid-Holocene, based on 78 direct AMS radiocarbon dates on human remains, fauna and artifacts, as well as 9 OSL dates on paleodune sand.
The older occupants have craniofacial dimensions that demonstrate similarities with mid-Holocene occupants of the southern Sahara and Late Pleistocene to early Holocene inhabitants of the Maghreb. Their hyperflexed burials compose the earliest cemetery in the Sahara dating to 7500 BCE. These early occupants abandon the area under arid conditions
and, when humid conditions return, 4600 BCE, are replaced by a more gracile people with elaborated grave goods including animal bone and ivory ornaments.
Conclusions/Significance: The principal significance of Gobero lies in its extraordinary human, faunal, and archaeological record, from which we conclude the following:
The early Holocene occupants at Gobero (7700–6200 BCE) were largely sedentary hunter-fisher-gatherers with lakeside funerary sites that include the earliest recorded cemetery in the Sahara.
Gobero was abandoned during a period of severe aridification possibly as long as one millennium (6200–5200 BCE) .
More gracile humans arrived in the mid-Holocene (5200–2500 BCE) employing a diversified subsistence economy based on clams, fish, and savanna vertebrates as well as some cattle husbandry.
Population replacement after a harsh arid hiatus is the most likely explanation for the occupational sequence at Gobero.
We are just beginning to understand the anatomical and cultural diversity that existed within the Sahara during the Holocene.
.
The Gobero Niger Kiffians and Tenereans.
They temporally correspond to the early Holocene hiatus from and midHolocene beginnings to Nile Valley communities that will found Egypt.
posted
Would like to bump this.
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Tukuler
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posted
Much overlooked study of nrY DNA. Very enlightening if used tandem with full genome pan Africa data.
From it, I conclude E-M2 went north from Cameroun to the African Humid Period North Tropical Africa aka Green Sahara diversified and dispersed nearly in all directions.
quote:I see, but what's troublesome when you look at the age by mutation (which is the basis of this analysis). We might be tricked into thinking the Fali for example carry mutation that branched off 11.03kya. which isn't true. E-M4727* is the oldest mutation dated 10.53kyo in the Fali and it's Downstream from PAGGE66. Basal p66 isn't found among the Fali, the sister group E-V4257 which is 6.5kya is, but is immeasurable in comparison to mutations frequency Chadic Speakers/populations. That paints an entirely different picture with respect to the Phylogeny of E-M2.
But to go into more detail... I still don't see how the topology suggests radiation from Cameroun in all directions. Most mutations downstream of V4727 is somewhat restricted to being below the Sahara outside of populations we know have recent Bantu ancestry. And as it relates to Cameroon being the point of origin, outside of a single bamileke and a single Ngambai individual all carriers of E-M4727* (the oldest M2 mutation found within Cameroon @ 10.52Kya xM10,V5001,Z15939,A186,V2003,M58,V1891) are either chadic speakers, or nomadic (fulbe), the Fali doesn't even carry it.
Also, what do you think of the odds of no E-m2 being found yet at the Shum-Laka site over the span of 3000 years before the bantu expansion? Also, do you think the earlier E-m2 carriers resembled them (the six shum laka individuals) Autosomally? Note that even though the amount of samples at that site are low, they still show 3,000 years of continuity AND even populations in modern day cameroon (some of who can carry A0 found in the ancient individuals) are more closely related to other West Africans and other E-M2 Carriers.
Also to ask the question again, what prevented dispersal prior to the humid phase, or the green sahara??
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Tukuler
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posted
Labeling and all dates are sourced in D'Atanasio tables as cited.
<<sigh>> who said E-M2 spread was from Cameroon to all directions?
Bantu expansion, as currently prescribed is a myth.
Will be interesting to see how much of the Negro-Egyptian commonalities can be explained by this.
I don't recall the specifics but I remember Asar saying something about how this map isn't anything close to cannon. I took that as you could move it to the side and go with the Green Sahara model with the 'Niger-Congo' relation to IE. Last I heard it is what Mboli's working on. When I wrote the movie script set in the Predynastic I assumed something like that map with Robert Bauval's location for Yam in black Genesis. I theorized that the the west African phenotype was initially more common in Yam, Temeh of Libya and Ta Mehu of lower Egypt than in upper Egypt.
I remember when Robert Bauval stated that
quote: 'Egyptians' were from a black Sub-Saharan race coming from the Tibesti mountains in northern Chad some 12,500 years ago.
It was controversialish I guess. I took it as, Yam was a population hub. It's founding and desertification were both periods of shared ancestry with the Nile Valley.
Its ironic. The closest thing to a true negro element in ancient Egypt came from the bible's Ham which I wager is a reference to Yam. The Hamitic hypothesis was jackboot pseudo science that even contradicted the bible. No surprise that it will end up being the complete opposite of right.
I love this and it makes sense.
Shouldn't bring any real controversy outside those already born out of keeping to the status quo and continuing to live within their own delusion and denial.
Even more so, when they're the ones keeping the bs alive.
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Tukuler
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posted
Not that its the only AHP X-Saharan nrY DNA a breakdown by south north and America
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Was just on the Berber Encyclopedia today and read an old Rock Art entry that laid out proto-Fulani as the earlier (beef) pastoralist while proto-African whites pastured sheeps and goats (later pastors). https://journals.openedition.org/encyclopedieberbere/2599
Both ancestral pops were living in W Afr Monsoon optimal Tasilli/Akakus Tropical North Africa.
Independent STRUCTURE-like graphs show Chenini --the only 'Berbers' without Fula I-- with Fula I and in the Levant. They also show Fula I in Mykenaea. This Fula I exemplar ancestry runs throughout most the African samples even if < 3%.
No telling what proto-Fulani spoke in the early-mid Holocene. Mantel Test get language and genetics in kilter. As far as E-M2 goes language affiliation today is 'Nilo-Saharan' and 'Niger-Congo' perhaps not then differentiated. Fulani are known to adopt and abandon tongues. Oral traditions tell of language barriers between an older generation and the first generation phraty heads. Those Fulani who took over Hausa Bakwai now themselves speak Hausa nearly exclusively.
That's an interesting hypothesis. So you think that caprid (goat/sheep) pastoralism was introduced by Eurasian immigrants. Do you think this explains the presence of R-V88
Perhaps it explains white figures in the Sahara like this
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The earliest known mummy in Africa that predates those of Egypt is Uan Muhuggiag child dubbed the 'black mummy' in a 2005 Discovery Channel documentary his remains were found close to Tadrart Acacus.
What's interesting is that Uan Muhuggiag's mummied remains were found wrapped in animal skin which was the same type of burial custom the earlier Kiffian Culture of Gobero had.
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Tukuler
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: That's an interesting hypothesis. So you think that caprid (goat/sheep) pastoralism was introduced by Eurasian immigrants. Do you think this explains the presence of R-V88
??? Where did I say that?
It's that the earlier art shows beeves with Black Africans and the later art depicts ovicaprids with White Africans. Your img example is better than the Berber Encyc one. That author was one of Lhote's team and the art he puts up sure looks too good to be true (oh no, not another White African woman with an ostrich shell on her Afro coiffed head fake).
Don't see Eurasians in White Africans. ~40k indigenees. Don't know enough about domestic sheep and goats to even guess where they came from at the moment.
E-V2197 appears older in Africa than E-M18 does in S Europe. S Eur V35 an offshoot of V2197 is younger than African V4963 and is post AHP Tropical North Africa. V1589 where the bulk of Afr V88 lies is also post, or borderline post, AHP TNA.
I know what's above my payscale. Africa V88 origins are beyond me.
Our usual genomics posters aren't back from lunch I guess.
posted
Neolithic Cultures of North Africa based on Josef Eiwanger 1987 classification
Orange: Caridial and Impressoceramics Brown: Neolithic in Capsian tradition light green: Sahara-Sudan cultures (Khartoum culture, Shaheinab culture) red: Neolithic of the Niger purple: Levant - Old Neolithic (Fayum Neolithic, Merimde) green: Upper Egyptian Neolithic (Badari)
Eiwanger's classification was largely based on pottery yet the earliest pottery in the entire region is that of the Saharo-Sudanese culture known for their wavy lines and dots.
Examples of the above Saharo-Sudanese pottery from the Tenerean burials at Gobero
Wavy line and dotted pottery sites in the Nile Valley and Sahara-Sahel Belt
Then there's cattle domestication. The earliest evidence of cow milk in Africa comes from traces found in a pottery shards in Takarkori rock shelter in the Tadrart Acacus as first discussed here.
posted
This African humpless longhorn breed still exists in Lake Chad Region among the Buduma people
The Egyptians had a short horn in the Old & New Kingdoms..
The Muturu, a trypanotolerant cattle breed is probably one of the least known breed of cattle in West Africa. Little has been published on its distribution, management, morphological characteristics or biological performance. Early reports showed that the Muturu cattle were once widely distributed across the continent from Liberia, across the West African subregion, to Ethiopia. However, due to expansion of the Zebu population and rapid urbanization, the small bodied animal came under pressure and was found surviving in pockets of the savannahs and in the humid forest zones where it had the comparative advantage of trypanotolerance. The survival of the cattle in the humid and forest zones of Nigeria stems from the fact that the animal is still sacred in so many communities and its milk is widely used for medicinal purpose
the short horn breed from Nigeria
In the New Kingdom, hump-backed zebuine cattle from Syria were introduced to Egypt, and seem to have replaced earlier types
The current Fulani heard Zebu (red and white)
Sanga or Ankole Watusi breed is the one seen many times on Egyptian ruins.. the horns are outurned
quote: Sanga cattle is the collective name for indigenous cattle of sub-Saharan Africa. They are sometimes identified as a subspecies with the scientific name Bos taurus africanus.[1] These cattle originated in East Africa, probably the western shores of Lake Victoria, and have spread up the river Nile, with depictions on Ancient Egyptian murals. Sanga are an intermediate type, probably formed by hybridizing the indigenous humpless cattle with Zebu cattle.[2] However, archaeological evidence indicates this cattle type was domesticated independently in Africa, and bloodlines of taurine and zebu cattle were introduced only within the last few hundred years
The Buduma humpless is a sub species of the Sanga
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^ The Buduma breed of sanga in Western Africa is more pristine compared to other sanga especially in East Africa which is known to have zebu admixture. The zebu by the way did NOT enter Egypt from Syria but was introduced centuries after dynastic Egypt into the Horn via Arabia, and I don't think that dynastic portrait portrays a real zebu since the hump is too small.
^ Unfortunately the all too common belief is that cattle were not independently domesticated in Africa but were introduced. However both genetics and archaeo-biology are starting to change that. For example, genetics shows that African taurine (sanga) are much genetically closer to West Asian ones than to Indian zebu. However recent findings show that African and West Asian taurines diverged from their common ancestor farther back than was initially thought and that historical admixture between the two in Africa has masked it.
As I previously stated there are distinct physical features between the three taurine types mentioned.
Not only do African taurine have longer larger horns but they also have a dorsal depression or 'saddle-back' in contrast to the straight lined backs of the West Asian taurine.
Wim Van Neer an archaeo-biologist who studied cattle remains from predynastic and early dynastic Egypt wrote an article for Nekhen News back in 2010 here. He too thinks the difference in features are too striking and that the longer horned, saddle back, cattle find their depictions in the Sahara but not in the Middle East as to suggest independent domestication in Africa.
Sadly that hasn't stopped the Euronuts who now claim that both types (long horned and short horned) originated in Asia.
But as I said, more evidence is slowly changing that picture.
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: ??? Where did I say that?
The part about R-V88 is just something I attached to your claim. I'm just trying to see how hg R got into Africa into the area it resides in now. Like Cruciani I do attribute its spread from Egypt and through the Sahara, but unlike him I don't associate it with Afrithrean.
quote:It's that the earlier art shows beeves with Black Africans and the later art depicts ovicaprids with White Africans. Your img example is better than the Berber Encyc one. That author was one of Lhote's team and the art he puts up sure looks too good to be true (oh no, not another White African woman with an ostrich shell on her Afro coiffed head fake).
Don't see Eurasians in White Africans. ~40k indigenees. Don't know enough about domestic sheep and goats to even guess where they came from at the moment.
Africa has its own Caprid stock like the barbary sheep as example, and there is some evidence from the Saharan rock art that attempts were made to domesticate the indigenous stock but adoption by Asiatic stocks became widespread after its introduction. Maybe this introduction was accompanied by Eurasian people as well carried R-V88 (?) Though I don't know what you mean by 40k white Africans. Unless you are referring to the Maghrebis of Cro-Magnon affiliation.
quote:E-V2197 appears older in Africa than E-M18 does in S Europe. S Eur V35 an offshoot of V2197 is younger than African V4963 and is post AHP Tropical North Africa. V1589 where the bulk of Afr V88 lies is also post, or borderline post, AHP TNA.
Yes, that's what I thought. That's why I as well as others including other experts thought Cruciani's claim to be silly since the timing of Afrithrean expansion predates the expansion of R-V88 in Africa not to mention that the clade held most in common by Afrithrean speakers is not R but E.
quote:I know what's above my payscale. Africa V88 origins are beyond me.
Our usual genomics posters aren't back from lunch I guess.
Hg R is definitely Eurasian and upstream markers of R-V88 were found in Egypt and the Levant.
Both of which were discussed here in regards to hg R in Africa.
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Tukuler
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ... Eurasian people as well carried R-V88 (?) Though I don't know what you mean by 40k white Africans. Unless you are referring to the Maghrebis of Cro-Magnon affiliation.
Don't know no Maghrebi with no Cro Magnon affiliation neither the original Cro Magnon or the later Cro Magnon. What's the lowdown on African Cro-Magnon in Africa vs France etc? Or are you using Cro-Magnon to rep for Early European Modern Human as a general biological class?
Current White Africans, no matter in how small a measure, go back ~40k with U6 in Africa. Not saying whiteskin goes back any further than the Holocene. In this I do agree with Keita, pale north Africans are indigenous, their colour comes from micro-evolutionary principles at work by both nature and man -ipulation.
quote:I as well as others including other experts thought Cruciani's claim to be silly
I'll play it again Sam: I don't read the article authors' text until after I examine the provided data and draw up interpretations seen through my eyes. And maybe not read 'em even after then.
quote:Hg R is definitely Eurasian and upstream markers of R-V88 were found in Egypt and the Levant.
African R-V88 remains above my pay grade. What conclusions I draw are based on the OP article attributed to D'Atanasio et al.
I'd expect a trail to show where it entered Africa. The African extension called SW Asia, does it have that trail? This is a table reduced to African R-V88 clade markers. All I can see is a south-north corridor of Cameroon/eastern Nigeria/ western Chad/eastern Niger Fezzan/Mzab that I can't date or guess direction(s)of flow(s).
D'Atanasio tables no shared continental Africa/SW Asia R-V88. The sharing's with south Europe. But like I said African R-V88 is beyond me and D'Atansio ain't no be all end all source neither. Everything I don't know will fill up libraries. Seems like a the older I grow the lesser I know.
What's interesting is that I noticed that dental filing is common in equatorial to sub-equatorial regions while dental avulsion is common to equatorial to supra-equatorial areas. Curiously dental avulsion is most commonly practiced today by Nilo-Saharan speaking people from Sudan to tribes in Kenya and Tanzania and usually involved avulsion of the incisors.
During the Holocene the Central Sahara seemed to be a hub of this practice as well especially the Gobero site.
According to the author based on statistical data of skulls found exhibiting incisor avulsion and their dates he concludes that the tradition originated among epipaleolithic Maghrebis (Maurusian), strangely he makes no mention of Natufians who exhibit the same trait who are contemporary with the Maurusians.
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We all know about Nabta Playa in Egypt but few know about the stone circle in the Western Sahara territory south of Morocco that lies on the same latitude as Nabta Playa.
The large stone crops and the small stone circle corresponds to those found in Nabta Playa, but there also other structures..
Also in the central part of the Sahara in Adrar Majet, Niger are stone crops as well as a perfect circle of stones.
I wonder how many other stone circles or structures there are in the Sahara both in the central area and Eastern Sahara.
Ancient megaliths are actually quite common in Africa including 'sub-Sahara' as was discussed here.
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Tukuler
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Continuing with D'Atanasio's article on nrY DNA found north and south of today's desert in the living. I've redone some of my reduxes, with some of elMaestro's critiques in mind, and can also post screenshots of the xls tabled data and how figure and table 'joins' led to the reduxes.
The phylogenies (in Figure 2b) for E-M2 and R-V88 are ready and will be posted after another check for typos etc.
Haven't looked at A3-M13 or E-M78 except ferreting associations between one ethnic or geo population and all the others reported by D's team. So, far the 3 Fulbe pops 'pooled', Tuareg, and the south Nigerians. Surprising relations, keeping in mind there are also haplogroups not shared between peoples on the parallel sides of Sahra not in D's article.
The 3 Ful could be mistaken as unrelated. Only Cameroon Fula show trans-Sahra A3-M13. Other than R-V516* in Niger Fula, Cameroon's Fula are the only ones bearing R-V88.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Continuing with D'Atanasio's article on nrY DNA found north and south of today's desert in the living. I've redone some of my reduxes, with some of elMaestro's critiques in mind, and can also post screenshots of the xls tabled data and how figure and table 'joins' led to the reduxes.
The phylogenies (in Figure 2b) for E-M2 and R-V88 are ready and will be posted after another check for typos etc.
I appreciate the data tables though I wish you have larger sizes as it's hard to make out. You or elMaestro can IM them to me. I think it's important because the only ethnic groups that I recall D'Atanasio et al. mention are Tuareg the Fulbe, likely because they are main nomadic groups that traverse large areas of the continent post desertification.
quote:Haven't looked at A3-M13 or E-M78 except ferreting associations between one ethnic or geo population and all the others reported by D's team. So, far the 3 Fulbe pops 'pooled', Tuareg, and the south Nigerians. Surprising relations, keeping in mind there are also haplogroups not shared between peoples on the parallel sides of Sahra not in D's article.
According to the paper both A3-M13 and E-M78 are associated with Nilo-Saharan speakers who traversed the Sahel at the onset of desertification corresponding to predynastic to early dynastic times. Once the desert came about, the Sahel became the main highway east to west and vice-versa. What I find interesting is that while the authors identify both haplogroups with Nilo-Saharan speakers those same two hgs are also found in the lower Nile Valley with A-M13 found in neolithic Nubians and E-M78 associated with Egyptians from predynastic to dynastic times as well.
quote:The 3 Ful could be mistaken as unrelated. Only Cameroon Fula show trans-Sahra A3-M13. Other than R-V516* in Niger Fula, Cameroon's Fula are the only ones bearing R-V88.
I do recall that A3-M13 occurs among Hausa speakers of northern Cameroon so it could go back my original question of language and ethnicity with one switching from Hausa to Fula or vice-versa.
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Tukuler
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Hadta shrink tables for fit. I've asked for sharable upload service storing lg files/pdfs but nobody suggested any. You can download the entire xls sheet. Google 13059_2018_1393_MOESM1_ESM.xlsx
Ful and Imoshag always get the limelight. Probably the two most Euro loved W Afr ppl. They fascinate Euros as a kind of proxy.
D'atanasio's A3-M13 sharing pop either side of Sahra. Keep in mind D's focus is on possible AHP Sahra nrY. Dunno what D's text says, haven't read it. Don't plan to.
Farsighted pattern indicates mostly NiloSaharan & Afrithrean speakers in 6 main geographies specifying A3-M13 haplogroups. * Central Sahel * Great Lakes * Yemen/Egy Oasis/N Medit Eur * W/C Afr & N Egy * N Cameroon & Great Lakes * Horn & Jordan
Tukuler
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro:
[. . .]
... outside of a single bamileke and a single Ngambai individual all carriers of E-M4727* (the oldest M2 mutation found within Cameroon @ 10.52Kya xM10,V5001,Z15939,A186,V2003,M58,V1891) are either chadic speakers, or nomadic (fulbe), ....
[. . .]
From the full viewpoint, I don't see it. Nor the need for raw numbers instead of frequency. All reported pops are of just 1 or 2 individual carriers.
In real life, all Cameroon Fulani I know are settled 'urbanites'. Anyway, D reports E-M4727* Ful in Nigeria not in Cameroon.
quote:Also, what do you think of the odds of no E-m2 being found yet at the Shum-Laka site over the span of 3000 years before the bantu expansion?
I agree with born and raised baNtu speakers like Samwiri Lwanga-Lunyiigo (1976) The Bantu problem reconsidered Current Anthropology, 17, 2, pp.282-6.
that a genetic Bantu origin and spread from SE Nigeria/S Cameroon never occured. The 3 strains of Bantu in D apparently confirm this for me. See E-M58 data for one, V2580 and U174 for two and three. Another pair of eyes is always welcome.
Plus I'm not up to speed on the Shum Laka aDNA and only know about its Pleistocene.
So ... I can't fairly take on the question.
quote:Also, do you think the earlier E-m2 carriers resembled them (the six shum laka individuals) Autosomally?
Haven't done the recent Shum Laka aDNA report. In general about autosomes? I expect them to vary by geography and at times by time itself. All that random jumbling. But consider the stability of Thuya's autosome profile and variance in Fulani autosomes region by region from 'SeneGambia' to Saudi Arabia.
How's that for a dodge? Nyuk nyuk
quote:Note that even though the amount of samples at that site are low, they still show 3,000 years of continuity AND even populations in modern day cameroon (some of who can carry A0 found in the ancient individuals) are more closely related to other West Africans and other E-M2 Carriers.
Also to ask the question again, what prevented dispersal prior to the humid phase, or the green sahara??
Nothing. Unless it was climate driven food availability and ppl followed their food into newly grass and lake environments to the north. Did they carry some of the complement of African ancestries found in early Holocene Malawi whose remains are female lacking Y chromosome. Is there a male Malawi aDNA carrier old enough to consider?
V1891 Z15939 V2003 V4257 all coalesced in Tropical North Africa African Humid Period timeframes if not in Sahra.
West Africa, from a point somewhat north of Lake Chad down to the southern border of Cameroon and across to the Senegal River, in archaeology
22,000-17,200 BCE : Tomboura III, Shum Laka ; (Senegal, Cameroun)
Doubt it's all the work of Rainforesters. Is the only PAGE66 is in Gambia at all relevent? What's the meaning of habitations in Senegal's Tomboura and Cameroon's Shum Laka both in a span from 35000 BP to 11000 BP even if contiguous not continuous?
posted
I'm posting my reaction here, if you don't mind alTakruri, since it's more in line with the topic.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Thanks and continue to disagree where you see fit because w/o constructive critique I might miss something I need to correct this time.
Why isn't V4240 from A186 as vetted as V5001 & V4990? Check out Column AS of Supplementary Table 5. Is it worth writing Cruciani to verify only Ouarzazate Tamazight have it and the entry isn't misplaced or if another pop with it missing from the table, etc.
The way I see it, V4240 is 'under construction'. We don't know that the A186* set aside for now, is distinct from V4240. Once A186* is resolved, some, all or none of it may totally reshape V4240. For instance, V4240 could be insignificant outliers within a larger Fulani haplogroup that will emerge out of future work on A186*.
That is my reason for not considering it. I don't know the authors' reasoning for not counting V4240.
The authors may also be considering issues with counting 200 year old local variations as local haplogroups. The vetted haplogroups (E-V4990 and E-V5001) have so far survived the challenges haplogroups face (e.g. purifying selection, bottlenecks) and became established.
On the other hand, the Maghrebi V4240 variations are only 200 years old. At any point in time in a nation, dozens, hundreds, thousands, etc. foreign haplogroups enter local families due to mixed marriages. While technically inside those populations, they have not meaningfully penetrated the population yet. They are sampled by geneticists all the time (especially by commercial companies). But they don't affect the population and many of them will get weeded out of the population. If it's true that V4240 has not risen above family/clan/village level (I haven't really looked into it, just thinking out loud), it could also have factored in the authors' decision not to count them.
From the moment a foreign haplogroup enters a population at the family level due to mixed marriage, when do we count them as established within that population? Obama's Luo Y-DNA currently exists in America, and undoubtedly will have some tight connections (~200 year old TMRCA) with other Luo immigrants. If they are sampled they will form a bogus 'American-specific haplogroup'. But on closer inspection, they will turn out to be trivial haplotypes within a larger Kenya-specific haplogroup. And the American members of that haplogroup will be far too young to have penetrated the genetics of the American population. A 1000 years from now their Y-DNA might be extinct in the US, especially since Obama (most capable of multiplying and perpetuating their shared Y-DNA in America), has no sons.
IMO 0.2ky old local variations should not be entertained. At least not until future work reveals the bigger haplogroup structure they're a part of, (which, in this case, is hinted at by A186*). Such recent local variations are interesting for customers of commercial testing companies who are looking for (distant) relatives. But IMO they have little use in population genetics as long as their tree structure is open to revision.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Here, lemme pick your brain hahah. What will this article tell us when we try and take all four A3 E-M2 E-M78 R-V88 and mesh them trying to come up with anything coherent about the markers, the ppls, and time and place itself?
I've become rusty with population genetics as far as linking different haplogroups to different archaeological cultures and sites. Since ABF got got taken offline I've not really looked back. The only anthropology I still keep in touch with is anomalous and (deliberately?) forgotten archaeology, like Howieson's Poort, Boskop, Silsila Man, Olduvai I and other anomalous and precocious industries, skeletal remains and ghost populations. That's where it's at, for me.
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... outside of a single bamileke and a single Ngambai individual all carriers of E-M4727* (the oldest M2 mutation found within Cameroon @ 10.52Kya xM10,V5001,Z15939,A186,V2003,M58,V1891) are either chadic speakers, or nomadic (fulbe), ....
[. . .]
From the full viewpoint, I don't see it. Nor the need for raw numbers instead of frequency. All reported pops are of just 1 or 2 individual carriers.
In real life, all Cameroon Fulani I know are settled 'urbanites'. Anyway, D reports E-M4727* Ful in Nigeria not in Cameroon.
I see. I was arguing against using collective frequency of the haplogroup in Cameroon to pinpoint its origin or point of dispersal. This hg has low frequency all across the board but given the collective evidence of more northern populations increasing the TMRC dates of E-M2 mutations shared, it seemed appropriate to point out who carried m4727 in Cameroon. The point about the fulani is well stated, but we're talking about a 10kya mutation, so in regards to their lifestyles I'm speaking historically. What I'm trying to do is account for how early Em2 mutations got where. But it doesn't matter, as you pointed out as they don't carry M4727.
Doubt it's all the work of Rainforesters. Is the only PAGE66 is in Gambia at all relevent? What's the meaning of habitations in Senegal's Tomboura and Cameroon's Shum Laka both in a span from 35000 BP to 11000 BP even if contiguous not continuous?
I Think it is relevant, unless we get new evidence re-assigning p66. It can suggest that we had populations moving somewhat laterally through the sahara, (or maybe above) very early. This can also be a sign of multiple waves of E-M2 carriers reaching west Africa, or even, though less likely, an origin there. As it relates to the former; we could be seeing what we seen in East Africa with E-Z827, where we have carriers migrating to the areas to meet earlier carriers with these haplogroups.
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Tukuler
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quote:'Stro wrote:
... against using collective frequency of [a] haplogroup ... to pinpoint its origin or point of dispersal. ...
True. Frequency only tells us concentration levels in ppls or locations at the samples' lifetime. Geneticists did use freq combined with microsatellite diversity and a third measure, that I forget, to guess origins. Some genomists still do. site:egyptsearch.com "microsatellite diversity" Several observations point to [a place] as the homeland for [a] haplogroup [] —that is, it had (1) the highest number of different [] clades (table 1), (2) a high frequency [] and a high microsatellite diversity, and, finally, (3) the exclusive presence of [associated] undifferentiated [] paragroup.."
--Cruciani (2004) Am. Jr. HumGen 74: 1014-1022
accessed quickly via Zar's Basic Database, square brackets by me for particular E-M215 usage to any haplogroup in general use.
I agree with Xyyman about some limitations of freq. Without a successive series of aDNA ain't no way to tell what was where or in whom when. People move around and in Africa mtDNA is very limited when it comes to identifying ethnicity.
quote:... I'm trying to ... account for how early Em2 mutations got where.
That stuff I wrote years ago? I'm reexamining all that due to errors I made reading the phylogeny in F2b and using ST2 column N data the wrong way to correlate nodes dates and samples. Looks like I even subbed node 69 for node 70 and who knows how else I 'fuchs'ed up.
Iirc I proposed Mayo Louti E-M2 men moved north to Sahra and downstream E-M2s began there and dispersed. Rather bold eh? "Just like my father you know I'm too bold." I retract all of that and apologize to any and all who may've used it elsewhere w/o vetting for themselves. Yeesh!
W/o aDNA associated with sites listed by Scerra we can only speculate whether or not E-M2 men were in the Atlantic sites or the Gulf sites. And ain't it strange no E-M33 was detected on both sides of Sahra?
Malawi's Mt Hora baby girl's genome first put me in doubt. Her full genome ADMIXTURE indicates ancestries that 'shouldn't oughtta be there then'. But alas the lass she has no nrY to test.
quote:I Think it is relevant, unless we get new evidence re-assigning p66
PAGE66 is old enough and found now in the right location to suggest Tomboura Senegal as a Hg origin spot. Ounjoungou's age and technology has something to do with AHP Tropical N Afr. Sudanese culture. But exactly what? Ish Geber?
How do we synthesize movement not migration from the E Afr lakes to the Sahra lakes with known Pleistocene to early Holocene people already there?
Me? I don't believe in human waves so can't surf 'em.
I distinguish migration (group packs up, splits to parts unknown deliberately) from movement (the haphazard wanderings of folks from one adjacent area to another. In this case with climate change allowing for newly appeared vegetation in a place where little once grew that attracted hungry animals that in turn attracted hungry people. For me, 'In search of dinner' here to there differs from hordes migrating in 'waves'. Maybe I'm too touchy bout that.
Musta been a mishmosh either way you look at it.
Anyway, it's known Sudanese introduced Neolithics to the N Afr pre-Sahara region if L Cabot Briggs' old broadsides on Sahara and Central - Western North Africa are still reliable.
=-=
I have questions now about D (2018) I didn't have before. Remember, Trombetta and Cruciani designed the study. How does her research tie in with E-M2 studies in general? Is it only viable for a small window? Are its findings applicable in general?
I ask because of Swenet's non-allowance of V4240 as Ouarzazate specific. I'm putting the finishing touches on a table query showing all the single population not geography specific E-M2 markers. Is specificity in D only applicable to her article or does it hold water vetted by across the board accountings of variant specificities?
=-=
quote:The point about the [F]ulani is well stated, but we're talking about a 10kya mutation, so in regards to their lifestyles I'm speaking historically.
Some musings of mine.
Adamawa Ful in Cameroon aren't a good proxy for 1st or proto-Fulani of AHP SE Algeria. Niger seems intuitively so, but is it really? Are they left over in Niger from the early and mid Holocene or are they too another instance of Hal Pulaar movement east from Mauritania/Senegal/Guinea? An inbred stock resulting from their culture in Niger that other Fulani regard them as countrified taboo breakers no town dweller would even consider marrying.
Bororo or herders were instrumental in Fulani taking over other peoples' land and countries. The pattern exists today and is the cause for much social turmoil murder, misery, and hate.
Caution against using R1b maps as an explanation for the movement of Chadic speakers in relation to E-M2.
Anything I've said is only one of many pieces of a jigsaw that is only now beginning to look like a coherent picture. In other words, I didn't just now begin to use a map to relate Egyptian V88 to Chadic V88. Ever since before 2012 there have been big updates about the nature of Egyptian V88, and how it relates to Chadic V88. This paper and its maps are just another piece of the puzzle informing my views. I do not owe my position that Mboli et al are in trouble, to any one particular paper. All the paper in the OP (D’Atanasio et al 2018) is doing, is help further clinch things. For instance, it dates some Egyptian R-V88 and E-M2 variations to the Middle Kingdom. That was not known before.
Look:
Of these R1b1 samples, nine are defined by the V88 marker, which was recently discovered in Africa. As high microsatellite variance was found inside this haplogroup in Central-West Africa and a decrease in this variance was observed towards Northeast Africa, our findings do not support the previously hypothesised movement of Chadic-speaking people from the North across the Sahara as the explanation for these R1b1 lineages in Central-West Africa. The present findings are also compatible with an origin of the V88-derived allele in the Central-West Africa, and its presence in North Africa may be better explained as the result of a migration from the south during the mid-Holocene. The genetic landscape of Equatorial Guinea and the origin and migration routes of the Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3573200/
This paper dates to 2012. So, Mboli et al being wrong went from a long standing suspicion to now almost certain. it's been a conclusion in the making, for a while now.
Suspicions of this nature (Chadic migration to Egypt) have been floating around for decades:
You might disagree with this linguistic observation. But I'm saying that all of this is not based on an R1b map I discovered recently.
quote:R clusters with Indo-Euro so if you are going to assume they are Chadic speakers E-M2 might as well be T or G. Remember Mboli used mostly the same methods that created Indo-Euro.
I don't understand what you mean. Egyptians have E-M2 from the Central Sahel, and they have R-V88 from the Central Sahel. Included in both Egyptian haplogroups are variations that have been differentiating in Egypt since the Middle Kingdom. What does that have to do with Indo-Europeans?
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Tukuler
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Umma tell yez After doing some table and figure joins D is arbitrary in deciding on terminal node representatives. What motivates choice of sample population?
Eg., E-V4257's sample in Fig2 terminal branch 70 is an Adamawa speaking north Cameroon Fali. Why?
Why not the Mande speaking Gambian Mandinka who has the 'parent' or the underived PAGE66* and the sibling M4727* plus its downstream Z15939* and V2003*, etc? Supportive of far West Africa E-M2 origins and dispersal or not?
Barbados's got the most V7937*, so what? No way to tell if it's ultimately from Sierra Leone Mande or Cameroon Toupouri just that its a part of a 6.43k lineage.
So after spending many hours producing the below I've become disillusioned it means anything. What can be gleaned from the data except a marker exists in a living person from somewhere of whatever ethicity or nationality?
There're other things uncovered that leave me in a morass when it comes to interpretation.
Supplemetary Table 1 would be more useful than ST5 if it included all samples. Sorting it by haplogroup or country or population reveals a lot without straining eye and mind.
Tukuler
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quote:Originally posted by Forty2Tribes:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: A case of knowing enough to think I was right but not enough to know that I was wrong.
Forty2Tribes please accept 1 - my apologies for the 2018 redux errors 2 - this corrected 2020 redux heeding critique especially from 'Stro. Only terminal nodes had samples so fewer region, country, and people markups.
UPdated this one too but saw no need to post 'til now.
Its gravy but I'm still confused because the earlier estimate matches this.
.
I had something in mind to somewhat clarify if possible when extracting this but I forgot what.
Oh, ok, ihwas sumpenbout three diff node 84's --in red blue and yellow-- each of its own date and accompanying paragroup whose internal variants are younger, often turning out much younger, once fully derived to haplogroup status.
posted
@tukuler relating to your inquiry about the OP study being viable. I don't see much conflict between this study and what we generally know about E-M2. The classification of the Ouazazate specific V4240 is unrefined. with more coverage we'll better understand the nature of this HG, but as it stands, the samples captured only coalesced to a few hundred years ago, That leaves room for quite a few reason as to how this mutation came about there. The more important mutation is A186* which stretches from Senegal to Egypt, and coalesced to over 5kya. It spans the maximum longitude of the African continent and is parent to V4240 which put it in some sort of context.
Now a much less reserved observation, or hypothesis, based on the topology of E-M2, is that during the last green sahara, the height of the diversification of E-M2 took place within the sahel and north. As in, ~13°north and above. And it was the drying of the Sahara that gradually pushed more people south into the GGP basin and into southern Africa. I believe the only area without the latitudinal boundary was East Africa which is how we can have E-M58 coming off of V4727 for example, which isn't generally found in central,western Africa but spans the greatlakes and South Africa.
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Tukuler
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I sent this letter and img to Cruciani last month on the 30th. I have received a reply from the humble D'Atanasio herself.
quote:Hi
Hopes this finds you and yours in good health and spirit.
Can you help me and confirm or deny the attached S T5 image is accurate, that those 10 markers are appearing only in one particular population and that indicates specificity?
Is the quality of belonging or relating uniquely to a particular subject enough for genetic specificity?
For instance is there some SNP panel refinement needed before say V4240 can be Ouarzazate specific or is its tabling only in one cell enough to call specificity?
Also, are any specificities only applicable to the both sides Sahara focus of this research or is its data and interpretation good across the board?
Thanks in advance from a genetics tyro but follower of your African nrY work for a decade.
Map of the populations analysed. Geographic positions of the populations from Africa, southern Europe and Near East are shown. For population labels refer to Additional file 1: Table S5
The peopling of the last Green Sahara revealed by high-coverage resequencing of trans-Saharan patrilineages Eugenia D’Atanasio 2018
quote:Originally posted by Elite Diasporan: I see Egyptsearch didn't get a hold of this study yet... Anyways, NO derailing/offtopic nonsense otherwise it will be removed or worse. Anyhow...
quote: In order to investigate the role of the last Green Sahara in the peopling of Africa, we deep-sequence the whole non-repetitive portion of the Y chromosome in 104 males selected as representative of haplogroups which are currently found to the north and to the south of the Sahara. We identify 5,966 mutations, from which we extract 142 informative markers then genotyped in about 8,000 subjects from 145 African, Eurasian and African American populations. We find that the coalescence age of the trans-Saharan haplogroups dates back to the last Green Sahara, while most northern African or sub-Saharan clades expanded locally in the subsequent arid phase.
Conclusions
quote: Our findings suggest that the Green Sahara promoted human movements and demographic expansions, possibly linked to the adoption of pastoralism. Comparing our results with previously reported genome-wide data, we also find evidence for a sex-biased sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africans, suggesting that historical events such as the trans-Saharan slave trade mainly contributed to the mtDNA and autosomal gene pool, whereas the northern African paternal gene pool was mainly shaped by more ancient events
Now the deal breaker for MANY with this study was the fact that E-M2 may in fact be ancient North Africa. I've seen this image posted around ES a lot and could E-M2 really have migrated down into what is today West Africa during the wet phase of the Sahara.
But a disappointing thing that many pointed out was that there were no Sudanese samples. Anyways thoughts?
The above 2018 D’Atanasio, article has several authors including Cruciani
The below is an article by a single author but based on the above article
A history of male migration in and out of the Green Sahara Yali Xue Genome Biology volume 19, Article number: 30 (2018)
D’Atanasio and colleagues to construct a dated phylogenetic tree. This tree, shown in a simplified form in Fig. 1a,
Figure 1 Simplified Y-chromosomal phylogeny and inferred past or observed present-day distribution of relevant Y-chromosomal lineages.
a) Calibrated phylogenetic tree of Y-chromosomal lineages discussed in the text. Green shading represents the period when the present-day Sahara Desert was green and fertile. Lineages represented by filled pentagons have undergone very rapid expansions.
b) The Green Sahara period 5–12 kya. Green shading indicates that the present-day Sahara Desert was green and fertile. The colors within the large oval represent the four Y-chromosomal haplogroups deduced to be present in the region at this time; specific locations are not implied. The arrows indicate the inferred origins of these haplogroups to the north or south, but specific origins and routes are not implied.
c) The present-day distributions of the four Green Saharan Y-chromosomal haplogroups. Yellow shading indicates the Sahara Desert. Each circle represents a sampled population, with the presence or absence of the four Green Saharan haplogroups shown by the colored sectors; other haplogroups may also be present in these populations, but are not shown. The small arrows indicate the inferred northwards and southwards movements of these haplogroups when the Sahara became uninhabitable. Figure based on data from [1]
Interesting maps here depicting haplogroups hypothetically in the Green Sahahra b) and then c), of the present day sample (refers back to the main article, see map at top of the post) The circles in 1 c are not percentages of each haplogroup, just equally divided between the haplogroups they found in their samples for each country
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One can note that Yali Xue is a Chinese researcher who has written different genetics studies, among others about positive selection in admixed populations from Ethiopia. She has also written about a Southeast Asian origin for present-day non-African human Y chromosomes.
She writes in the article above
quote:The authors extended their findings by genotyping 142 informative SNPs (many newly discovered in this study) in 7955 additional men from 145 African, Eurasian and African-American populations. This enabled them to better understand both the likely origins of the four haplogroups earlier than 12 kya (Fig. 1b) and the locations of the present-day descendants (Fig. 1c). E-M78 and R-V88 [3] probably originated from the north because the most closely related lineages were found there, and A-M13 and E-M2 from the south.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] ^ So according to Yali Xue, E-M78 is Eurasian?? LOL
Supposedly Xue was basing his map on >>
quote:
The peopling of the last Green Sahara revealed by high-coverage resequencing of trans-Saharan patrilineages Eugenia D’Atanasio 2018
E-M78 is a widespread lineage, with significant frequencies in Africa, Europe and the Middle East [33, 34]. Within the African continent, three E-M78 sub-clades (E-V22, E-V12 and E-V264) show different frequencies in different regions. E-V22 is mainly an eastern African sub-haplogroup, with frequencies of more than 80 % in the Saho population from Eritrea, but it has also been reported in Egypt and Morocco [34,35,36]. E-V12 is relatively frequent in northern and eastern Africa, but it has also been reported outside Africa at lower frequencies [33,34,35]. The vast majority of the eastern African E-V12 chromosomes belong to the internal clade E-V32, which has also been observed in northern and central Africa at very low frequencies [12, 33,34,35]. E-V264 is subdivided into two sub-clades: E-V65, common in northern Africa; and E-V259, which includes few central African chromosomes
The distribution and age estimates of different E-M78 sub-haplogroups show a strong parallelism. Excluding the E-V13 subclade, which has been linked to the Neolithic transition in the Near East [34], all the other three major E-M78 lineages (E-V264, E-V22 and E-V12) include a Mediterranean clade (harbouring northern African, near-eastern and southern European samples) and a sub-Saharan clade (Fig. 3b; Additional file 2: Figure S5). The age estimates of the nodes joining the lineages from these two macro-areas are quite concordant (12.30 kya for E-V264, 11.01 kya for E-V22 and 10.01 kya for E-V12) and correspond to the beginning of the humid phase in the eastern Sahara, where E-M78 probably originated [34, 35]. After the end of the last Green Sahara (~ 5 kya), the differentiation is sharp, with no lineages including both Mediterranean and sub-Saharan subjects. The sub-Saharan clades E-V264/V259 and E-V22/V3262 are restricted to central Sahel and eastern Africa (mainly the Horn of Africa), respectively, whereas E-V12/V32 is very frequent in eastern Africa but it also includes a central Sahelian clade, suggesting a Sahelian movement between 5.99 and 5.17 kya.
I'm not sure why Xue has that blue arrow referring to E-M78 coming from outside of Africa
I left out Xue URL which I have since added Below his remarks on E-M78 (although not seeming to correspond with that blue arrow)
D’Atanasio et al (referred to in the below quotes as "the authors"
A history of male migration in and out of the Green Sahara Yali Xue Genome Biology volume 19, Article number: 30 (2018)
The authors extended their findings by genotyping 142 informative SNPs (many newly discovered in this study) in 7955 additional men from 145 African, Eurasian and African-American populations. This enabled them to better understand both the likely origins of the four haplogroups earlier than 12 kya (Fig. 1b) and the locations of the present-day descendants (Fig. 1c). E-M78 and R-V88 [3] probably originated from the north because the most closely related lineages were found there, and A-M13 and E-M2 from the south.
North of the Sahara, in addition to the four trans-Saharan haplogroups, haplogroup E-M81 (which diverged from E-M78 ~ 13 kya) became very common in present-day populations as a result of another massive expansion ~ 2 kya [6] (Fig. 1a).
Although Y chromosomes exist within populations and so share and reflect the general history of those populations, they can sometimes show some departures from other parts of the genome that result from differences in male and female behaviors. D’Atanasio et al. [1] highlight one such contrast in their study. Present-day North African populations show substantial sub-Saharan autosomal and mtDNA genetic components ascribed to the Roman and Arab slave trades 1–2 kya [7], but carry few sub-Saharan Y lineages from this source, probably reflecting the smaller numbers of male slaves and their reduced reproductive opportunities when compared to those of female slaves. The sub-Saharan Y chromosomes in these North African populations thus originate predominantly from the earlier Green Sahara period.
In this part of Africa, the indigenous languages that are spoken belong to three of the four African linguistic families (Afro-Asiatic, Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo). Interestingly, these languages show non-random associations with Y lineages. For example, Chadic languages within the Afro-Asiatic family are associated with haplogroup R-V88, whereas Nilo-Saharan languages are associated with specific sublineages within A3-M13 and E-M78, further illustrating the complex human history of the region.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: One can note that Yali Xue is a Chinese researcher who has written different genetics studies, among others about positive selection in admixed populations from Ethiopia. She has also written about a Southeast Asian origin for present-day non-African human Y chromosomes.
She writes in the article above
quote:The authors extended their findings by genotyping 142 informative SNPs (many newly discovered in this study) in 7955 additional men from 145 African, Eurasian and African-American populations. This enabled them to better understand both the likely origins of the four haplogroups earlier than 12 kya (Fig. 1b) and the locations of the present-day descendants (Fig. 1c). E-M78 and R-V88 [3] probably originated from the north because the most closely related lineages were found there, and A-M13 and E-M2 from the south.
The Chinese and other East Asians can be (and often are) just as Eurasiocentric as Europeans. Ironically it is Europeans who have updated the info that the majority of E-M35 subclades originated 'north', it is accurate to say North Africa and not Eurasia.
Many of these European researchers are of Mediterranean descent and are very interested on E-M35 as that clade is very much part of their paternal heritage who note the following: Northwards from Egypt and Libya, E-M78 migrated into the Middle East, but additionally Trombetta et al. (2011) proposed that the earlier E-V68 carrying population may have migrated by sea directly from Africa to southwestern Europe, because they observed cases of E-V68* (without the M78 mutation) only in Sardinia, and not in the Middle Eastern samples. Concerning E-M78, like other forms of E-V68 there is evidence of multiple routes of expansion out of an African homeland.
On the other hand, while there were apparently direct migrations from North Africa to Iberia and Southern Italy (of people carrying E-V68*, E-V12, E-V22, and E-V65), the majority of E-M78 lineages found in Europe belong to the E-V13 subclade which appears to have entered Europe at some time undetermined from the Near East, where it apparently originated, via the Balkans.
Coming to similar conclusions as the Cruciani and Trombetta team, Battaglia et al. (2008), writing prior to the discovery of E-V68, describe Egypt as "a hub for the distribution of the various geographically localized M78-related sub-clades" and, based on archaeological data, they propose that the point of origin of E-M78 (as opposed to later dispersals from Egypt) may have been in a refugium which "existed on the border of present-day Sudan and Egypt, near Lake Nubia, until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC. The northward-moving rainfall belts during this period could have also spurred a rapid migration of Mesolithic foragers northwards in Africa, the Levant and ultimately onwards to Asia Minor and Europe, where they each eventually differentiated into their regionally distinctive branches".Posts: 26853 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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It seems there are more and more Chinese researchers (both geneticists and archaeologists) who work in Africa or with African material. Maybe it is a part in Chinas overall interest in Africa and African resources, as was alluded to in another thread
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