quote:

---

In order to investigate the role of the last Green Sahara in the peopling of Africa, we deep-sequence the whole non-repetitive portion of the Y chromosome in 104 males selected as representative of haplogroups which are currently found to the north and to the south of the Sahara. We identify 5,966 mutations, from which we extract 142 informative markers then genotyped in about 8,000 subjects from 145 African, Eurasian and African American populations. We find that the coalescence age of the trans-Saharan haplogroups dates back to the last Green Sahara, while most northern African or sub-Saharan clades expanded locally in the subsequent arid phase.

---

quote:

---

Our findings suggest that the Green Sahara promoted human movements and demographic expansions, possibly linked to the adoption of pastoralism. Comparing our results with previously reported genome-wide data, we also find evidence for a sex-biased sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africans, suggesting that historical events such as the trans-Saharan slave trade mainly contributed to the mtDNA and autosomal gene pool, whereas the northern African paternal gene pool was mainly shaped by more ancient events

---

Now the deal breaker for MANY with this study was the fact that E-M2 may in fact be ancient North Africa. I've seen this image posted around ES a lot and could E-M2 really have migrated down into what is today West Africa during the wet phase of the Sahara.


But a disappointing thing that many pointed out was that there were no Sudanese samples. Anyways thoughts?
 

---

Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
 
Why is slavery always used to explain south Sahara people moving at that time? If people are coming into Africa to take them as slaves what's stopping those Africans from moving on their one free will? As using boats seem less efficient in the Sahara slave trade sense they weren't going that far.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Nice find ED!

I just saw this. Busy at work these days. But a quick glance put oldest node of E-M2 at 11Kyo. The youngest at 200y0! E-M35 is 35Kyo.

Where is Swenet? He! HE! HE! I need to break it down and post to ESR and ES.

As I said modern West Africans are new to West Africa.


Wow! this is the paper I may have been waiting on.

Where is AstenB and the other African linage experts? Capra , Elmaestro .....and Sage.

All we need to do is overlay these nodes on a map of Africa. Wow!
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
Now the deal breaker for MANY with this study was the fact that E-M2 may in fact be ancient North Africa. I've seen this image posted around ES a lot and could E-M2 really have migrated down into what is today West Africa during the wet phase of the Sahara.

---

But where was E-M2 before the LGAM?

Is there a study that tracks Gulf of Guinea
peoples' movement into the greening Sahara?

Did GGP move into the greening Sahara
then go back to GGA after current dry
Sahara began drying out in the mid-Holocene?

I'm downloading the research article now
and I hope our old friends Trombetta, Watson,
Dugoujon, and Cruciani considered the time
between 20 and 10 thousand years ago in
West and Central Africa and what those
folk did when the rainforests moved north
forcing them north toward the Green Sahara.

@Thereal
For Africanists and others studying Africa(ns)
Africans are denied active agency.
Africa(ns) are only passive receivers.
Africans are stay at home non-movers.

Genetic studies on Africans throw the
word admixed around like its a natural.
But do a search "are admixed" populations
and see how often that phrase is used
for European peoples.


@Xyyman
I'm right here. I talked about E-M2 plenty
in the past. Gonna take 3 days to digest
and do corrobative research before I say
anything about this article's particulars.

Meanwhile you owe me some come back on the
reduced R0a phylogeny I doctored to show
the basal nodes in the Brave New Era thread.


= - =
E-M2 in context

 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
The question is where is the youngest nodes of E-M2....like 200years old? Location? Bantu Expansion?


What is the node of R-V88 compared to West Africa and Southern Europe.

Man this could answer a lot of questions.

As I said they will NOT find E-M2 in West Africa beyond 5000years.


I am surprised on the age of R-V88. Now I am curious about Villabruna he is dated @14,000ya. Something does not add up.
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
There is a potential for E-M2 to be just as old as L2 and L1 in North Africa, since these hgs are today associated with E-M2. And L2 was found in PPN. But this paper doesn't provide any updates on E-M2 lineages of that age in North Africa. Unless I'm missing something. But what IS interesting to me about this paper, as far as E-M2, is that R-V88 and E-M2 in North Africa could signal a Central African migration back to North Africa in ancient times. This could explain Egyptian-Chadic linguistic affinities and the spike of R-V88 in Siwa Egyptians.

quote:

---

The marked grammatical and lexicographic affinities of Ancient Egyptian with Chadic are well-known, and consistent Nilotic cultural, religious and political patterns are detectable in the formation of the first Egyptian kingships.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
^on E-M2 and R-V88 node is a node does matter where is is geographically located.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
^on E-M2 and R-V88 node is a node does matter where is is geographically located.

---

What do you mean?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thereal:
Why is slavery always used to explain south Sahara people moving at that time? If people are coming into Africa to take them as slaves what's stopping those Africans from moving on their one free will? As using boats seem less efficient in the Sahara slave trade sense they weren't going that far.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Nice find ED!

I just saw this. Busy at work these days. But a quick glance put oldest node of E-M2 at 11Kyo. The youngest at 200y0! E-M35 is 35Kyo.

Where is Swenet? He! HE! HE! I need to break it down and post to ESR and ES.

As I said modern West Africans are new to West Africa.


Wow! this is the paper I may have been waiting on.

Where is AstenB and the other African linage experts? Capra , Elmaestro .....and Sage.

All we need to do is overlay these nodes on a map of Africa. Wow!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
There is a potential for E-M2 to be just as old as L2 and L1 in North Africa, since these hgs are today associated with E-M2. And L2 was found in PPN. But this paper doesn't provide any updates on E-M2 lineages of that age in North Africa. Unless I'm missing something. But what IS interesting to me about this paper, as far as E-M2, is that R-V88 and E-M2 in North Africa could signal a Central African migration back to North Africa in ancient times. This could explain Egyptian-Chadic linguistic affinities and the spike of R-V88 in Siwa Egyptians.

quote:

---

The marked grammatical and lexicographic affinities of Ancient Egyptian with Chadic are well-known, and consistent Nilotic cultural, religious and political patterns are detectable in the formation of the first Egyptian kingships.

---

https://www.academia.edu/1921955/Book_Egypt_in_its_African_Context

---

quote:

---

The
positive samples from ancient Egypt
exclusively originated from the
Middle Kingdom tomb, while no
molecular evidence for ancient
Leishmania
DNA was found in the
Pre- to Early Dynastic and the New
Kingdom to Late Period specimens.

---

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3290941/pdf/06-0169.pdf
 

---

Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 
haven't got a chance to read thoroughly yet. i'd like to see E1a, E2, B2a etc too but i doubt this is the last we will see from this set of samples.

btw keep in mind Francalacci's ginormous sample of 1200 Sardinians is in here too so Southern Europe will be numerically overrepresented.

in this study "admixed" means New World. including white people from Utah.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Is there a study that tracks Gulf of Guinea
peoples' movement into the greening Sahara?

Did GGP move into the greening Sahara
then go back to GGA after current dry
Sahara began drying out in the mid-Holocene?

---

genetically or archaeologically? i haven't seen any genetic study with enough detail to even begin to sort that out. archaeologically, you probably know better than me, seems to have been quite a variety of tool-making methods around, but the small quartz tools made by the people who reoccupied Ounjougou in central Mali somewhat over 11 000 years ago (already with a few sherds of pottery) may be linked to the vaguely-defined quartz microlithic tradition found at Shum Laka in western Cameroon 30 000 years ago and in southern Nigeria and Cote d'Ivoire 15 000 years ago. perhaps with origins in East Africa. at Iwo Eleru found at the same level as the archaic-looking person.

the Faleme Valley in eastern Senegal was apparently occupied throughout the Ogolian with varied lithic industries, i don't know how it connects to anything later.
 

---

Posted by Elite Diasporan (Member # 22000) on :
 
This is the type of discussion we all wanted from ES.


Is this so hard? Keep up the good work fellas.
 

---

Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
But where was E-M2 before the LGAM?

Is there a study that tracks Gulf of Guinea
peoples' movement into the greening Sahara?

Did GGP move into the greening Sahara
then go back to GGA after current dry
Sahara began drying out in the mid-Holocene?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:

. . . .
in this study "admixed" means New World. including white people from Utah.

---

Ok here's my not ready yet textless graphic

Again, might be a plausible way
to explain this away. Noise or sumpin.

 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Just commenting on my speculation not the article.

I have no current info on E-M33 nor the region specific E-M2.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008665#000011
Hoping to learn and looking from a W Afr agency POV.

Is it impossible MSA/LSA GGPs took something
to the north that they not only came back
with but others there picked up and kept?

Is it so GGPs were just passive receptors
their women breeding for E-M2 to the point
the northbound GGP men were diminished near
to the point of no return to GGA?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
But where was E-M2 before the LGAM?

Is there a study that tracks Gulf of Guinea
peoples' movement into the greening Sahara?

Did GGP move into the greening Sahara
then go back to GGA after current dry
Sahara began drying out in the mid-Holocene?

---

Tagging Archeological sites with Uniparentals?
Xyyman is slightly right about "West African" E-M2 being kinda young. I wouldn't look towards Guinea to define the early presence of E-M2. Just a slight glimpse at the patterns of coalescence as well as upstream distribution suggests that E-M2 had a northern emergence at the very least Sudanic. However, regardless, your explanation might not be far from the truth, it's just that GGP came to the green Sahara without and left with M2.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

Is there a study that tracks Gulf of Guinea
peoples' movement into the greening Sahara?

Did GGP move into the greening Sahara
then go back to GGA after current dry
Sahara began drying out in the mid-Holocene?

---

genetically or archaeologically? i haven't seen any genetic study with enough detail to even begin to sort that out. archaeologically, you probably know better than me, seems to have been quite a variety of tool-making methods around, but the small quartz tools made by the people who reoccupied Ounjougou in central Mali somewhat over 11 000 years ago (already with a few sherds of pottery) may be linked to the vaguely-defined quartz microlithic tradition found at Shum Laka in western Cameroon 30 000 years ago and in southern Nigeria and Cote d'Ivoire 15 000 years ago. perhaps with origins in East Africa. at Iwo Eleru found at the same level as the archaic-looking person.

the Faleme Valley in eastern Senegal was apparently occupied throughout the Ogolian with varied lithic industries, i don't know how it connects to anything later.

---

Great roundup pahdnuh. How bout an eyefull?


 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Nothing really ground breaking here meaning that we (or those who are aware of the wet sahara phase) understood already that it was populated by Africans who then moved elsewhere as the Sahara dried up.

But still it would be nice to get some old remains from the green Sahara and try and extract some DNA. uan muhuggiag type DNA.

But it is interesting how when they do studies of African DNA they include Europeans and folks from all over the planet but when they do ancient European DNA they stick to Europe and mostly exclude Africa.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Not sure what you meant by "Negro" Egyptian but I agree the connection to West Africans have with the Nile Valley is Neo/Mesolithic or pre AE. That we agree one. I don’t think the genetic connection is post AE or due to the fall of AE. But undoubtedly they are all Africans.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Swenet:

Not that I changed my mind about Negro-Egyptian commonalities being largely a consequence of Mesolithic and Neolithic dispersals into Sub-Saharan Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thereal:
Why is slavery always used to explain south Sahara people moving at that time? If people are coming into Africa to take them as slaves what's stopping those Africans from moving on their one free will? As using boats seem less efficient in the Sahara slave trade sense they weren't going that far.

---

Because this is the old reference they have / use when it deals with Africa. Read old racist 17th,18th and 19th century anthropology and history when they deal with Africa. When you look at the side-notes or foot-notes, you'll see what references they have used in the paper.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
I am not done reading but....wow...this is a bomb shell study. It looks like they are exposing the lies. Are they breaking rank? Lol! As I predicted. Are they accusing past researchers of doctoring results and/or hiding information? SMH
Are they saying that E-M2 dispersal are from North Africa? This I getting good. He! HE! He! As Kdolo said. Within their admission of their past lies they replace it with another lie. They provided no data for European version of R-V88, bummer!

Quote
---------------------
Outside the African continent, two rare R-V88 sub-lineages (R-M18 and R-V35) have been observed in Near East and
southern Europe (particularly in Sardinia). Because of its ethno-geographic distribution in the central
Sahel, R-V88 has been linked to the spread of the Chadic branch of the Afroasiatic linguistic family.

In spite of their genetic differentiation, however, northern and sub-Saharan Africa **share** at least four patrilineages
at different frequencies, namely A3-M13, E-M2, E-M78 and R-V88.

In this context, rare Y lineages with a relic geographic distribution can be highly informative regarding human
migrations across the Sahara. Thus, considering their frequency distribution, the four trans-Saharan lineages
A3-M13, E-M2, E-M78 and R-V88 could represent the remains of the Saharan MSY genetic landscape before
the desertification, CONTRARY to the USUAL interpretation involving recent gene flow events such as the trans-
Saharan Arab slave trade. In order to investigate the role of the last Green Sahara in the peopling of Africa, we performed targeted
next generation sequencing (NGS) of ~ 3.3 Mb of 104 Y chromosomes mostly belonging to these four lineages.
We also analysed the geographic distribution of 142 informative single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) by
genotyping about 8000 male subjects from 145 worldwide populations (including 17 populations from literature),
with a particular focus on the African ethnic groups. Our findings were consistent with the hypothesis
that the Green Sahara allowed extensive human movements, excluding recent historical events, such as the
Arab slave trade, as a major determinant of the male gene pool of present-day northern African populations.

four precisely radiocarbon-dated ancient specimens as calibration points (Additional file 1: Table S1).
In the set of 104 samples from our lab collection, we identified 5966 SNPs. Interestingly, 3044 variants (51 %)
out of the 5966 were *******not reported in previous studies***** and this figure is significantly greater than that reported by Hallast et al.
------
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
To those who are following I am trying to verify their suggestion that R-V88 is European in origin but A3-M13 found in Europeans is African in origin. I see no data. Swenet, Sage, Elamestro, Capra, Ish, others?


For the record. E-M2 is dated as 11kya and it youngest node or sub-clade is dated only 200years ago. E-M2 will NOT be found in West African aDNA prior to 5000years ago. These ancient West African will NOT be closely related to modern West Africans. The mutation had not occurred as yet. E-M35 is almost 3X as old as E-M2.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
I misread this first statement. They dated based upon archeology not carbon dating. White people and their games.
---
Quotes:
By calibration with the four ***archeologically*** dated specimens, we obtained a mutation rate of 0.735 × 10−9/site/
year, which is consistent with previously published estimates and which was used to obtain an accurate
estimate of the coalescence age of the tree nodes, with a particular focus on the four trans-Saharan clades.

E-M2.
It is worth noting that branches 72 and 81 are two deep sister
lineages within the E-M2 main multifurcation (Fig. 2) and
both of them include chromosomes from northern Africa.
Similarly, the other terminal lineages absent in the 1000
Genomes Project’s tree are mainly represented by samples
from northern Africa or, to a lesser extent, from the
northernmost regions of sub-Saharan Africa (i.e. the
central Sahel) (Fig. 2b).
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
What are you looking at? They have demonstrated that E-M2 in North Africa is NOT due to Slavery it been present in North Africa since before the "Arabs" arrived. Interestingly they are stating that other researchers have historically hidden that data. I knew it!! But they cleared up some lies and replaced it with another lie. These Europeans just can't come clean?


 

---

Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 
all the four archaeologically-dated remains - Loschbour, Kotias, Bichon, and Ust' Ishim - have direct radiocarbon dates obtained from their bones, xyyman. do five minutes of research, man.

"The topology and geographic distribution of both A3-M13 and E-M2 suggest that these lineages were brought to the Sahara from the southern regions, while E-M78 and R-V88 seem to have followed the opposite route."

so no they are not saying it came from the north. of course it is possible it came from the north, but a couple of E-M2* samples from the Atlas and Siwa Oasis are not exactly a smoking gun here. there is still a basal branch specific to Atlantic West Africa as well as quite a high diversity of V43 there. mind you this study contains more samples from Morocco alone that from West Africa total.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Am I missing something on R-V88? There is no data to conclude R-V88 is of Sardinian origin. The data they presented prove the opposite? Doesn't it? The "ROOT node" of R-V88 are West Africans(Cameroon and others), North East Africans(Siwa/Levant Bedouins) and Europeans(Sardinians). This indicates a genetic connection but ancient separation. We are back to an ancient connection between West Africans and "Europeans...if you considered Sardinians Europeans. Lol! They also admit the yDNA A found in Sardinia is of African origin during or prior to the Green Sahara
Europeans do not carry sub-nodes and there is clear bifurcation between Africans of the North West and North East.


@Capra - I will get back to E-M2. I am on R-V88 now. Europeans lie. I have gone past that. We will get back to E-M2. R-V88 shows that. Looks like the Sahel was the dispersal route for R-V88 or across the Green Sahara. Look at node 233. Help me out here.

Clearly there is separation between West/North West Africa and North East Africa. Commonality =Sahelians? I will like to see what node the R-V88 found in the Levant Bedouins and Iran align with. Also the few found in Iberia.



 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Not sure what you meant by "Negro" Egyptian but I agree the connection to West Africans have with the Nile Valley is Neo/Mesolithic or pre AE. That we agree one. I don’t think the genetic connection is post AE or due to the fall of AE. But undoubtedly they are all Africans.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Swenet:

Not that I changed my mind about Negro-Egyptian commonalities being largely a consequence of Mesolithic and Neolithic dispersals into Sub-Saharan Africa.

---

---

quote:

---

Outside Africa, both A3-M13 and R-V88 harbour
sub-lineages geographically restricted to the island of
Sardinia and both seem to indicate ancient trans
-Mediterranean contacts. The phylogeography of A3-
M13 suggests that the direction of the movement was
from Africa to Sardinia, while R-V88 topology indi
-cates a Europe-to-Africa migration.Indeed,our data
suggest a European origin of R-V88 about 12.3 kya,
considering both the presence of two Sardinian R-V88
basal clades (R-M18 and R-V35) and that the V88
marker arose in the R-M343 background, which in
turn includes Near-Eastern/European lineages [52].

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
So far what I find from this study's data

E-M2 probably expanded from north Cameroon
where it coalesced 4000 years earlier from
LGAM Mayo Louti cultural site men who were
likely ancestral to the Fali.

I haven't read the text.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Puts some charts up when you read and process the data. I don't see it. I will get to E-M2 now.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
So far what I find from this study's data

E-M2 probably expanded from north Cameroon
where it coalesced 4000 years earlier from
LGAM Mayo Louti cultural site men who were
likely ancestral to the Fali.

I haven't read the text.

---

---

 

---

Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 
thanks for the site list Tukuler, some of those are new to me.

Elmaestro i don't see why an expansion from a savanna belt refuge across the Green Sahara wouldn't leave old remnants in North Africa - that seems to be exactly what the authors are arguing. why not West Africa? granted the diversity in southern Nigeria is pretty low but that's just Esan and Yoruba.

i too should be getting back to work.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Well maybe you just heard of them under another name.

For instance Fatandi is Faleme.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:
thanks for the site list Tukuler, some of those are new to me.

Elmaestro i don't see why an expansion from a savanna belt refuge across the Green Sahara wouldn't leave old remnants in North Africa - that seems to be exactly what the authors are arguing. why not West Africa? granted the diversity in southern Nigeria is pretty low but that's just Esan and Yoruba.

i too should be getting back to work.

---

So far you can Argue a Mende Origin based on diversity and probably phylogeny, but it doesn't hold a candle to Chad topologically imo. I don't see a reason why Older and more diverse clades won't be prevalent in West Africa if E-M2 originated there. there's a gap about the age of the oldest coalescent clade found in West Africa between it and basal E-M2. What would cause that in West Africa; why would west African distribution be restricted until the holocene if it originated there?

2 Inane Posts Removed. V88's *Origin* Must be Discussed Elsewhere
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
No! xxyman is 100% right


Quote:
“Tagging Archeological sites with Uniparentals?
Xyyman is ‘slightly right’ about "West African" E-M2 being kinda young. ……...”


The point on E-M2. There are indigenous nodes of E-M2 in North Africa(which was hidden and NOT reported by other researchers per this paper). Significance? E-M2 cannot possibly be of West African origin. It will not be found in aDNA of West Africans. Next, we need to do a node-by-node break down of E-M2 regarding age and location. ElMaestro is part right ….But the Sahel was the conduit from East Africa to North and West Africa. Sahel was not where it originated. If E1b was included that would have helped nail it down. But irregardless, there is clearly indigenous E-M2 found in North Africa that has absolutely nothing to do with “slavery”….and that is what he researchers set out to prove.





recap

________________________________________
I am not done reading but....wow...this is a bomb shell study. It looks like they are exposing the lies. Are they breaking rank? Lol! As I predicted. Are they accusing past researchers of doctoring results and/or hiding information? SMH
Are they saying that E-M2 dispersal are from North Africa? This I getting good. He! HE! He! As Kdolo said. Within their admission of their past lies they replace it with another lie. They provided no data for European version of R-V88, bummer!

Quote
---------------------
Outside the African continent, two rare R-V88 sub-lineages (R-M18 and R-V35) have been observed in Near East and
southern Europe (particularly in Sardinia). Because of its ethno-geographic distribution in the central
Sahel, R-V88 has been linked to the spread of the Chadic branch of the Afroasiatic linguistic family.

In spite of their genetic differentiation, however, northern and sub-Saharan Africa **share** at least four patrilineages
at different frequencies, namely A3-M13, E-M2, E-M78 and R-V88.

In this context, rare Y lineages with a relic geographic distribution can be highly informative regarding human
migrations across the Sahara. Thus, considering their frequency distribution, the four trans-Saharan lineages
A3-M13, E-M2, E-M78 and R-V88 could represent the remains of the Saharan MSY genetic landscape before
the desertification, CONTRARY to the USUAL interpretation involving recent gene flow events such as the trans-
Saharan Arab slave trade. In order to investigate the role of the last Green Sahara in the peopling of Africa, we performed targeted
next generation sequencing (NGS) of ~ 3.3 Mb of 104 Y chromosomes mostly belonging to these four lineages.
We also analysed the geographic distribution of 142 informative single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) by
genotyping about 8000 male subjects from 145 worldwide populations (including 17 populations from literature),
with a particular focus on the African ethnic groups. Our findings were consistent with the hypothesis
that the Green Sahara allowed extensive human movements, excluding recent historical events, such as the
Arab slave trade, as a major determinant of the male gene pool of present-day northern African populations.

four precisely radiocarbon-dated ancient specimens as calibration points (Additional file 1: Table S1).
In the set of 104 samples from our lab collection, we identified 5966 SNPs. Interestingly, 3044 variants (51 %)
out of the 5966 were *******not reported in previous studies***** and this figure is significantly greater than that reported by Hallast et al.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
.. Xyyman posted a botched version of it.

E-M2 is at the very least Sahelian (possibly Chadian.)

@XYYMAN Take Capras Advice About the V88 Stuff Please.

---

 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Upon further analysis I may lean more towards ElMaestro- Looking at this. Central Sahel has the oldest Node. Not sure what is “Central Sahel”? Are we talking Chad or Sudan Sahel region. That may explain why Rameses III was E-M2? Nevertheless, at nodes 93 and 71 there was a split and Great lakes already had E-M2@10.53Kya . Great Lakes E-M2 align with nodes 71-84 and 93. West Africans proper carry few nodes(less diversity) compared to North Africans and Great Lakes Africans. Diasporans carry the younger nodes. In short the data is more indicative of Central Sahel/North East African origin of E-M2. The split occurring about 10K years ago. Nevertheless this dataset do NOT support the supposed Bantu Expansion from West Africa.

Oddly the AFRAM dataset align with Great Lakes nodes of E-M2. Reminds me of that Wally picture thread on Aframs being AEians? Maybe pictures is a thousand words. lol!


 

---

Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
 
The link isn't working.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Fixed!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thereal:
The link isn't working.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
[/qb]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

So far what I find from the research data

E-M2 probably expanded from north Cameroon
where it coalesced 4000 years earlier from
LGAM Mayo Louti cultural site men who were
likely ancestral to the Fali. Green Sahara
E-M2 moved north from Cameroon following
the northward expanding fertile grassland
landscapes.


I haven't read the Cruciani Trombetta text.
This project they designed and supervised is
the latest of their ongoing studies.

---

 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

So far what I find from the research data

E-M2 probably expanded from north Cameroon
where
it coalesced 4000 years earlier
from LGAM Mayo Louti cultural site men who were
likely ancestral to the Fali. Green Sahara
E-M2 moved north from Cameroon following
the northward expanding fertile grassland
landscapes.


I haven't read the Cruciani Trombetta text.
This project they designed and supervised is
the latest of their ongoing studies.

---

 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Looks like E-M2 originates in north Cameroon
from Chadic (not Kanuric) speakers in the
Adamawa Plateau.

E-M2 split into a local clade and a clade
that's got all the subclades.

The expanding clade's founder was most
likely Chadic, an Asio-African language.

The oldest subclade founder 9k was most
likely Nilo-Saharan. It expanded 7k.

Around that same time the 'Atlantic-Congo'
and 'Niger-Congo' subclades form.

The ~7k E-M2 expansion may be a signal of
movement westsouthwest and south from the
fully Green Sahara.

I could've fouled up but incredibly 'Niger-
Congo B', Bantu E-M2 seems to source from
a Nilo-Saharan ancestor of its 'Niger-Congo'
founder.

E-M2 'Niger-Congo' source Bantu expansion
starts ~7k and does it again ~6k for the
Great Lakes region where ~5k it expands
two more times.

E-M2 Nilo-Saharan to 'Niger-Congo' sourced
Bantu expansion begins ~4k

About the same time E-M2 expands in Oasis Egypt.
Though seperated by 7000 years with not a single
intermediary it's immediate ancestor is the
founder of the Expanding Clade. This young E-M2
subclade expanded locally 1000 years ago.

Another E-M2 Johnny come lately's at the other
side of the north of Africa in Morocco. It goes
back only ~500 years and it too came from the
Expanding Founder lineage.

Other Tamazight E-M2 has ~7k 'Atlantic-Congo'
and ~4.5k Chadic roots.

Ok,enough of clades and clusters.

I noticed Shorties have Expanding Founder E-M2,
Nilo-Saharan founder E-M2 and 'Niger-Congo B'
founder E-M2.

One E-M2 subclade dating back ~5k was only
found because of Black Americans and African
Americans have U174.


I still ain't read the D'Atanasio Trombetta Cruciani text yet.


 

---

Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] @Swenet

You are right Fig S4 is much better. Someone slap me! Am I seeing this right that E-M2-V2003* is dated 9.08kya…in Southern Europe?

---

Hilarious.
Someone on lipstickalley once told me that e1b1a was old and from Ethiopia then went to west Africa and did the Bantu migrations.

I responded don't be surprised if its young and from Crete .
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
MOD EDIT: V88 Origins and anti-empirical fringe theories will Not be Discussed in this thread. Duscussions on V88's Origins shall be discussed Here
Thanks everyone

[ 17. February 2018, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: Elmaestro ]
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
@Swenet

You are right Fig S4 is much better. Someone slap me! Am I seeing this right that E-M2-V2003* is dated 9.08kya…in Southern Europe?

---

quote:

---

On the "Hound Stela" of the Eleventh Dynasty ruler Antef II, one of the basenjis has the name Abaikur, meaning "hound" in Berber, suggesting a southwestern origin for that particular dog.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
Wait huh? Swenet how are you? Huh? I'm lost. First how can we even discern the ancient location from modern location?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
Assuming we can isnt Tuckler's chart saying E-M2 was in Egypt in 11 thousand years ago?

---

Are you talking about branch 71? The Egyptian versions of it are undated. But they're young. See what I said above.
 

---

Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 
Tukuler I'm a lil confused about your table... Why not simply use table S5 and figure S4 to compose your tree. and use point mutations as opposed to vague nodes.Basal E-M2 predates node 69 by about 5 thousand years and is not in Cameroon ...In fact it takes all the way until V4257 to find a clade found in the Fali a clade which is only ~6.46kya. The most basal/Divergent clade with the earliest coalescent age has the highest frequency among the Medinjay 17+kya???? otherwise its found in Egypt and Moyen Atlas Berbers. whats up?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
11k's just out the Pleistocene. Desert
was milder and sandwiched by grasslands.
E-M2's a 17k old Central / West African
haplogroup as far as I can tell. See
maps posted above.

When 'Atlantic-Congo' split from Nilo-
Saharan 6.95k it had two E-M2 'Berber'
subclades. that expand 4.9k. One of
them is found in Siwa. See the Founders
chart posted above.

There are two later Tamazight expansions
on the Siwa founded 73 branch. At 3.6k 1k
and 0.5k for Ouarzazate Morocco. Dates
will vary a pinch pending BEAST or Rho.


Sorry about my Fali fallacies. D'Atanasio
Fali are the 'Niger-Congo' ones. No language
leap. NC and NS have a relationship. NC and
AA not so much so.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
ElMaestro

I had to start somewhere.
Since then I been an Excell
querying MF.

Oh, but I had to pull a Rubic's
on all the trees. Twisted them
chronologically. Perspective
is everything.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Join query
T S1, T S2, T S5, T S9
F 2a, F 2b, F 3a, F 3b, F S4



* * * EDIT * * *
replaced by http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=009885&p=3#000121
 

---

Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
The most basal/Divergent clade with the earliest coalescent age has the highest frequency among the Medinjay 17+kya???? otherwise its found in Egypt and Moyen Atlas Berbers.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Are you talking about branch 71? The Egyptian versions of it are undated. But they're young. See what I said above. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
The most basal/Divergent clade with the earliest coalescent age has the highest frequency among the Medinjay 17+kya???? otherwise its found in Egypt and Moyen Atlas Berbers.

---

that's not known to be a clade and it doesn't have a coalescent age (unless i am missing something?). and Madjingay n=15.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:
All the paragroups are shown fanning out from the root, not half way down like known but undated clades. because they don't know whether the paragroups actually form a clade or where they branch off. i see nothing to suggest any of them were sequenced, otherwise they'd be put on proper branches. they were genotyped in the big sample set after new variants had been discovered by sequencing the smaller set AFAICT.

so the E-M2* samples could have branched off before or after the E-M2 root in the diagram. they could be 1 young sister branch of E-CTS10066 or 3 thirty thousand year old basal branches of E-M2. who knows.

after 10 000 years there's only so much modern diversity can tell you. though admittedly i haven't looked at it properly yet.

---

Look at it properly, cause you're actually, indirectly suggesting they pulled the split times from their asses lmaoo
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
That last chart I posted has all
the dated branches from figures
2 and S4

Supplementary Tables 2 (columns A
E F N), 1 (columns A C D E) get
down to IDing the source sample
of each of the 30 markers given
dates in Figures 2 and S4. Table
S3 lists BEAST dates, see below.

Branch numbers make the Trees accessible.
Using mutations alone is too unwieldy.

When the Branch snd Marker from a figure
match a row in Table S2 we take its Samples
to Table S1 where the corresponding row tells
the Samples' source population(s).

Table S9 is limited to in silico genotyped SNPs
That's the ones in my chart with a
o in column 1







That's a redux sorted by date
and I added node sample sources
 

---

Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
Look at it properly, cause you're actually, indirectly suggesting they pulled the split times from their asses lmaoo

---

hmmm, i think i see what you mean, some nodes have TMRCAs but only have 1 sequenced branch. supp text is a bit terse but sounds like they actually checked all the SNPs along the relevant branch and counted how many were ancestral. in which case the paragroup samples could not branch off before the Page66-CTS10066 split.

paragroup still not a clade though.
 

---

Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
That last chart I posted has all
the dated branches from figures
2 and S4

Supplementary Tables 2 (columns A
E F N), 1 (columns A C D E) get
down to IDing the source sample
of each of the 30 markers given
dates in Figures 2 and S4. Table
S3 lists BEAST dates, see below.

Branch numbers make the Trees accessible.
Using mutations alone is too unwieldy.

When the Branch snd Marker from a figure
match a row in Table S2 we take its Samples
to Table S1 where the corresponding row tells
the Samples' source population(s).

Table S9 is limited to in silico genotyped SNPs
That's the ones in my chart with a
o in column 1

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:
hmmm, i think i see what you mean, some nodes have TMRCAs but only have 1 sequenced branch. supp text is a bit terse but sounds like they actually checked all the SNPs along the relevant branch and counted how many were ancestral. in which case the paragroup samples could not branch off before the Page66-CTS10066 split.

---

Branched off? The TMRCA of E-M2* = age of the Page66-CTS10066 split (17kya).
 

---

Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 
that's the maximum TMRCA, the actual TMRCA of the 4 E-M2* samples is unknown.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
This is why I do the data before
reading the report. To analyze
data, synthesize it with what
I know or can reference from
related multidisciplinary
sources, and then draw
my conclusions.

Later I'll read the report and
see what I'll see where me and
authors agree or disagree. It's
a proactive approach.

There's no explaining away the
source used to date the mutations.

No speculation.

The plateu dwelling, expunged from
Adamawa subphylum, yet 'Niger-Congo'
speaking Fali was the sample that
dated PAGE66 to 11k (Rho).

And so I conclude until Cruciani
writes and tells me it ain't so.

I'm gonna build on what I posted on the 16th

quote:

---

So far what I find from the research data

E-M2 probably expanded from north Cameroon
where it coalesced 4000 years earlier from
LGAM Mayo Louti cultural site men who were
likely ancestral to the Fali and all the
Adamawa international Plateau population.
Green Sahara E-M2 moved north from Cameroon following
the northward expanding fertile grassland
landscapes.


E-M2 [PAGE66 69] split into a
local clade [M4257 71] and a
clade [V4727 71] that's got
all the subclades.

This expanding clade founder most
likely spoke a language that will
become Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo.

The oldest subclade [V2003 84] founder
9k was most likely Nilo-Saharan. It
expanded 7k:
• southwest the 'Atlantic-Congo' Z15939,Z15941 77
• WNW Songhai V7937 94 and L516 94
• south major 'Niger-Congo' U209 84


The ~7k E-M2 expansion signals movement
westsouthwest, westnorthwest, and south
from the thriving fully Green Sahara.

Bantu has two sources. The older one [M3991
87] descends from 'Niger-Congo' [U209 84]
starting ~7k. Surprisingly it's offshoot
[V3862 87] coalesces within 100 years.
1000 years later [V2580 87] is the last
NC Bantu branch of the last days of the
Green Sahara.


The younger Bantu [U174 100] is Nilo-Saharan
[L516 95]'s nephew. Their connection is[M191
100] considered the 'Bantu Drift' originator.

E-M2/U174 Nilo-Saharan to 'Niger-Congo' sourced
Bantu expansion begins ~4k.

About this same time E-M2/V5001 72 expands in
Oasis Egypt. Siwa was Western Libyan then in
the 13th Dynasty.

Though seperated by 7000 years with not a single
intermediary it's immediate ancestor is the founder
of the Expanding Clade M4727 71. This very young E-M2
subclade expanded locally 1000 years ago with V5758 73.

Another E-M2 Johnny come lately's at the other
side of the north of Africa in Morocco. V6150
81 only goes back ~500 years and it too came
directly the Expanding Founder lineage.

Other Tamazight, E-M2
• V6235 80 has old roots uniting it with 'Atlantic-Congo' Z15939, Z15941 77.
• V5280 97 is from ~4.5k L516 V5280 97 Sudanic Nilo-Saharan roots.

All E-M2 Asio-African Tamazight speakers
sampled from Egyptian Oases populations
and Morocco had a NS/NC father sometime
in the Holocene.


I noticed Shorties have
• Expanding Founder E-M2 69
• Nilo-Saharan founder E-M2 V1891 93 and
•'Niger-Congo B' founder E-M2 M191 100

One E-M2 subclade dating back ~5k was only
found because of Black Americans and African
Americans have U174.

---

I'll keep expanding, correcting, and simplifying
it as I keep on analyzing and synthesizing the
data.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Using both sides of the brain and
even loose intuitive association
between the halves help me see
what I couldn't by intensive
thinking.

Is major climate change driving
E-M2 mutation until like 2000
BCE (and other prescient questions
the below arrangement of data puffs
into my head )


 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Lol. Clyde trying to talk about the origin of R-V88. That's the least of your worries. Any reaction to the implications of E-M2 in Middle Kingdom Egypt? Looks like the Middle Egyptian language dates to a period marked by increased Central African influences.

quote:

---

On the "Hound Stela" of the Eleventh Dynasty ruler Antef II, one of the basenjis has the name Abaikur, meaning "hound" in Berber, suggesting a southwestern origin for that particular dog.

---

https://books.google.nl/books?id=7MvtJ2LbKgwC&pg=PA81&lpg=PA81&dq=basenji+egypt+berber+middle+kingdom&source=bl&ots=8jcayqwShZ&sig=FDjkK-r-1eRcd8X9AhGNENLnkMA&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKE wi02oajs7HZAhXJL1AKHRAFC5wQ6AEIOTAH#v=onepage&q=basenji%20egypt%20berber%20middle%20kingdom&f=false

This is why you have to be careful making claims in bioanthropology. The data can be very treacherous. What initially looked like the original Egyptian language (i.e. Middle Egyptian) may simply be a form of Egyptian influenced by Chadic speakers from West/Central Africa. Another setback for Negro-Egyptian.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The fact that Mande, Wolof and Fula are related to Egyptian is probably due to the fact that when the Inyotefs took over Egypt the ancestors of these groups live in southern Egypt/Upper Kush. This would explain 1) the relationship between the Fula and Egyptian language of the 12th Dynasty 2) the introduction of the worship of Aman to the Egyptians a god worshipped by many Niger-Congo speakers, 3) the presence of Egyptian gods for selected nomes bearing West African ethnonyms and 4)the love of the basenji dog by the 12th Dynasty Egyptians.

---

quote:

---

On the other hand, the Medjay like the Nubians of the C-Group culture interacted favorably with the Egyptians. In the case of the Meday, they appear to be reliable allies and formed, therefore, part of the Egyptian army under Kamose in his campaigns against the Hyksos. Some have suggested that a Medjay contingent may have played a primary role in Kamose's interception of the Hyksos embassy en route to Nubia.

---

https://books.google.nl/books?id=Ui9Qwtp-LV4C&pg=PA103&lpg=PA103&dq=kamose+medjay+hyksos&source=bl&ots=7yl7fnGHhy&sig=hkMEp9VGsg4wwN6NFlwiUuokIrY&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwigxqbN77bZAh WEsKQKHe2lDH4Q6AEIMjAB#v=onepage&q=kamose%20medjay%20hyksos&f=false

Even northern enemies of the 17th dynasty tried to form an alliance with Nubians for military help against Upper Egypt. If southern Africans played this role during 2nd intermediate period, why not during the first intermediate period and the Middle Kingdom?

The Middle Kingdom was preceded by civil war (first intermediate period). Could be Thebans emerged victorious because they had help from the south and from people ultimately deriving from the southwest. Also, it's probably naive to think that Bantu migrations were specific to Bantu speakers. Whatever caused it would have impacted neighbouring populations as well (like Chadic speakers). And since Chadic speakers were pastoralists, it would have been more natural for them to expand into areas with no tsetse flies (i.e. not to the south, as Bantu speakers did, but to the northeast and north). Niger-Congo speaking pastoralists might also have expanded in directions opposite of Bantu farmers.

Will be interesting to see how much of the Negro-Egyptian commonalities can be explained by this.


 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Where is Djehuti when you need to bounce ideas off him.
 

---

Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:

I'm going to try to put together a comprehensive post on what this says about the relationship between NiloSaharan and NC speakers. cuz the story is there to be decoded.

---

Looking forward to this.
 

---

Posted by Abyyx (Member # 22887) on :
 
A very tiny amount of MTDNA L was found amongst the mummies at Abusir el Meleq:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Analysis-of-90-ancient-Egyptian-mitochondrial-genomes-a-Mitochondrial-DNA-haplogroup_fig2_317237154

As for saying that DNA Results are a white scientist plot, is just stupid.
 

---

Posted by Elite Diasporan (Member # 22000) on :
 
^What does the Abusir mummies have yo do with this study?
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
What about this S Afr Bantu M58
1st generation from M4727 but
younger than his brothers?

A Bantu and a Palestinian marker
that's not alone in pointing to
Bantu substructure bucking the
status quo monolithic Great Bantu
Expansion.
 

---

Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 
E-M58 is relatively uncommon, seems largely absent in West Africa, but it is reportedly present in non-Bantu-speaking populations from Chad, Cameroon, and Burkina Faso as well as South and East Africa, besides Arabs and Americans.

E-M58 in some other studies:

Naidoo et al (2010): 3% pooled Southeast African Bantu (n=343), 1% pooled Khoisan (n=183).
Barbieri et al (2016): 4% pooled South African Bantu (n=140), 6% Damara (n=36), 1% pooled Khoisan (n=371).
Rowold et al (2014): 3% Mozambicans (n=78).
Luis et al (2004): 10% Rwandan Hutu (n=69)
Hirbo (2011): East African Bantu speakers ~2% (n=196), also found among Hadza and East Nilotic speakers, Bedzan from Cameroon 18% (n=17).
Cruciani et al (2002): 5% Rimaibe from Burkina Faso (n=37, halotype 26 iirc is M58, this is super old though)
Haber et al (2016): 2% Sara from southern Chad (n=61), 2% of general population from capital (n=55).
YFull private testers: a Kuwaiti (private tester) another unidentified sample (prob American or Arab).
1000 Genomes Project: a Luhya from Kenya, an African-American from SW US, a Puerto Rican, 2 Afro-Caribbeans from Barbados
HGDP: a Herero

looking at the linguistic and archaeological discussions "monolithic" is not the impression i get!
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
for gathering that M58 info.

I only looked for it in the reefered Poznik.


Maybe I misunderstood you.

It's the heretofore known Bantu Expansion
that's been presented as 'monolithic,' a
single start time and demography.

I always had a thing with E Afr Bantu
speaking friends that besides the
language how can so many of them be
late arrivals to Kenya and the Lakes?

This study is showing multiple sources
for Bantu speakers origins. M58 is one
and AsiAfrican speakers got a lot of it.
That's the thing's got my head tilted.

. . .

Southern Bantu M58 5.16 0 generation .
Other Bantu sources in this study are
Central&Lakes U290 4.90 4th generation (from W Afr V2003
Central&Lakes U174 3.88 1st generation (from W Afr V1891

E-M58's dated to 5.16k and it's the only
one directly downstream from M4727.

All of them post date the 5.5k Sahara drying.
Dduring the LGAM, Africa south of 10° N was
fully livable grassland and savanna allowing
free movement all over with suitable tools
for hunting grassland and savanna fauna.

There was no need for everybody to move up into
the Green Sahara. Even if open canopy forest was
an impeding toolkit challenge then, it was still
all savanna from Senegal to Kenya above the fully
maximized Sierra Leone to Uganda massive rainforest.
Then, from Kenya to Zimbabwe, scrub, leading to
Botswana and SouthAfrica grassland.


Food production called for new different tools.
Some industry came down from drying Sahara but
down south food production inspired it's own
tool industries.

Since everybody didn't move into the Sahara
it's hard to say E-M2 definitely expanded
from there.
 

---

Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 
i think the only reason it is being linked to the Green Sahara is the timing - a big population expansion around the beginning of the Holocene. beyond that yeah i don't see what would exclude the Sudanian zone.

re Bantu expansion there is a lot of shared ancestry and the close relationship of languages so yeah you need a lot of people to have started spreading from a limited area. but how it began AFAIK has never been established archaeologically, not till the beginning of the Iron Age (or at best just prior) do we have any kind of solid trail and that from multiple centres. then lots of subsequent movements, expansions, and contacts between different groups (who have picked up additional regional ancestry and cultural elements).
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:


Will be interesting to see how much of the Negro-Egyptian commonalities can be explained by this.

---

I don't recall the specifics but I remember Asar saying something about how this map isn't anything close to cannon. I took that as you could move it to the side and go with the Green Sahara model with the 'Niger-Congo' relation to IE. Last I heard it is what Mboli's working on. When I wrote the movie script set in the Predynastic I assumed something like that map with Robert Bauval's location for Yam in black Genesis. I theorized that the the west African phenotype was initially more common in Yam, Temeh of Libya and Ta Mehu of lower Egypt than in upper Egypt.

I remember when Robert Bauval stated that

quote:

---

'Egyptians' were from a black Sub-Saharan race coming from the Tibesti mountains in northern Chad some 12,500 years ago.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:


Will be interesting to see how much of the Negro-Egyptian commonalities can be explained by this.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-c4a04b1dcecb7efaca7bd884c080e29d

---

I don't recall the specifics but I remember Asar saying something about how this map isn't anything close to cannon. I took that as you could move it to the side and go with the Green Sahara model with the 'Niger-Congo' relation to IE. Last I heard it is what Mboli's working on. When I wrote the movie script set in the Predynastic I assumed something like that map with Robert Bauval's location for Yam in black Genesis. I theorized that the the west African phenotype was initially more common in Yam, Temeh of Libya and Ta Mehu of lower Egypt than in upper Egypt.

I remember when Robert Bauval stated that

quote:

---

'Egyptians' were from a black Sub-Saharan race coming from the Tibesti mountains in northern Chad some 12,500 years ago.

---

It was controversialish I guess. I took it as, Yam was a population hub. It's founding and desertification were both periods of shared ancestry with the Nile Valley.

Its ironic. The closest thing to a true negro element in ancient Egypt came from the bible's Ham which I wager is a reference to Yam. The Hamitic hypothesis was jackboot pseudo science that even contradicted the bible. No surprise that it will end up being the complete opposite of right. [/qb]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brit333:
Egyptians carried MTDNA U6 going back 30 000 years and the Copts still carry U6 as their majority MTDNA.

Negroids are 8000 years old:
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Asselar-man

---

Take your foot off the pedal and stop getting banned. Phenotype/archaeology sciences is sketchy but you can at least substantiate it with collaborating evidence. Phenotype narrative is just coded nonsense.


If 'negroids' are new Egypt and Sumer are the mother and father of all of Earth's negroids.





 

---

Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
The physical anthro evidence seems to be suggest something to that effect. Preliminary skeletal analyses on people to the southwest of Egypt suggests a NC presence starting specifically around 1st Intermediate/Middle Kingdom times.

See Handessi culture
https://books.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/propylaeum/reader/download/218/218-30-77018-1-10-20170213.pdf

---

quote:

---

Simon et al. (2002) reported that the measurements and expressions of the relevant non-metric traits of the oldest skeleton from the Wadi Shaw, the Wavy Line phase individual 83/110-11, lay within the range of those published for the Late Pleistocene Wadi Halfa series. The metric analysis of the best preserved crania of the Wadi Shaw sample highlighted both the remarkable variability and the biologically Sub-Saharan nature of these three much younger Handessi period skulls. The principal component analysis on the basis of 29 metric variables, which also included Nubian Kerma period and Egyptian New Kingdom samples, allied 83/110-15 with the Kenyan Teita, placed 83/110-18-1 closest to Chamlah’s (1968) Saharan “restes humains neolithiques et protohistoriques” and positioned 83/110-14 between the Teita and the Saharan material. . . .

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brit333:
Egyptians carried MTDNA U6 going back 30 000 years and the Copts still carry U6 as their majority MTDNA.

Negroids are 8000 years old:
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Asselar-man

---

quote:

---

"Nazlet Khater man was the earliest modern human skeleton found near Luxor, in 1980. The remains was dated from between 35,000 and 30,000 years ago. The report regarding the racial affinity of this skeleton concludes: ”Strong alveolar prognathism combined with fossa praenasalis in an African skull is suggestive of Negroid morphology [form & structure]. The radio-humeral index of Nazlet Khater is practically the same as the mean of Taforalt (76.6). According to Ferembach (1965) this value is near to the Negroid average.” The burial was of a young man of 17-20 years old, whose skeleton lay in a 160cm- long narrow ditch aligned from east to west. A flint tool, which was laid carefully on the bottom of the grave, dates the burial as contemporaneous with a nearby flint quarry."

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quote:

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"Indeed, the rare and incomplete Paleolithic to early Neolithic skeletal specimens found in Egypt—such as the 33,000-year-old Nazlet Khater specimen (Pinhasi and Semal 2000), the Wadi Kubbaniya skeleton from the late Paleolithic site in the upper Nile valley (Wendorf et al. 1986), the Qarunian (Faiyum) early Neolithic crania (Henneberg et al. 1989; Midant-Reynes 2000), and the Nabta specimen from the Neolithic Nabta Playa site in the western desert of Egypt (Henneberg et al. 1980)—show, with regard to the great African biological diversity, similarities with some of the sub-Saharan middle Paleolithic and modern sub-Saharan specimens. This affinity pattern between ancient Egyptians and sub-Saharans has also been noticed by several other investigators (Angel 1972; Berry and Berry 1967, 1972; Keita 1995) and has been recently reinforced by the study of Brace et al. (2005), which clearly shows that the cranial morphology of prehistoric and recent northeast African populations is linked to sub-Saharan populations (Niger-Congo populations). These results support the hypothesis that some of the Paleolithic–early Holocene populations from northeast Africa were probably descendents of sub-Saharan ancestral populations."

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quote:

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The study on the partial calvarium discovered at Manot Cave, Western Galilee, Israel (dated to 54.7 ± 5.5 kyr BP, Hershkovitz et al. 2015), revealed close morphological affinity with recent African skulls as well as with early Upper Paleolithic European skulls, but less so with earlier anatomically modern humans from the Levant (e.g., Skhul). The ongoing fieldwork at the Manot Cave has resulted in the discovery of several new hominin teeth. These include a lower incisor (I1), a right lower first deciduous molar (dm1), a left upper first deciduous molar (dm1) and an upper second molar (M2) all from area C (>32 kyr) and a right upper second molar (M2) from area E (>36 kyr). The current study presents metric and morphological data on the new Manot Cave teeth. These new data combined with our already existing knowledge on the Manot skull may provide an important insight on the Upper Paleolithic population of the Levant, its origin and dietary habits.

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quote:

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Introduction

After the dispersal of modern humans Out of Africa, around 50–70 ky cal BP1,2,3,4 or earlier based on fossil evidence5, hominins with similar morphology to present-day humans appeared in the Western Eurasian fossil record around 45–40 ky cal BP, initiating the demographic transition from ancient human occupation [Neandertals] to modern human [Homo sapiens] expansion on to the continent1"

[...]

The haplogroup of PM1 falls within the U clade [Fig. 1B and Supplementary Table 3], which derived from the macro-haplogroup N possibly connected to the Out of Africa migration around 60–70 ky cal BP1,2,3,4. In line with this, the Peştera cu Oase individual that lived on the current territory of Romania, albeit slightly earlier than PM1 [37–42 ky cal BP] also displays haplogroup N9.

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—Hervella et al. 2016




—Sarah Tishkoff et al.
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
The man behind the word (and actions):

Wilhelm Heinrich Immanuel Bleek

quote:

---

Word Origin and History for Bantu Expand
1862, applied to south African language group in the 1850s by German linguist Wilhelm Heinrich Immanuel Bleek (1827-1875), from native Ba-ntu "mankind," from ba-, plural prefix, + ntu "a man, person." Bantustan in a South African context is from 1949.

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quote:

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Bleek’s intellectual importance extends beyond his pioneering interests in Darwin’s theory of evolution and its application to the indigenous peoples in southern Africa. He was also responsible for setting up a system of classification based on language but one which intersected closely with race. This system of classification was based on clear distinctions between Bantu, Hottentot and Bushmen linguistic types and proposed that the study of these primitive languages was of universal importance in so far as they held the key to the understanding of the historical evolution of the three major branches of language spoken worldwide.

[...]

Bleek elaborated his system of classification during the 1860s and early 1870s. He characterised both “Hottentot” and “Bantu”, a term he coined, as sex-denoting languages, but suggested that they were clearly structurally distinct in so far as “Bantu” languages were prefix-pronominal and “Hottentot” languages were suffix-pronominal. In other words, the pronouns in the “Bantu” languages are borrowed from derivative prefixes to the nouns, whilst the pronouns in the “Hottentot” languages are borrowed from the derivative suffixes to the nouns.29 It was on the basis of these structural features that Bleek regarded these languages as “primary forms” of two of the world’s major philological branches, accounting for three-fifths of the languages known on earth: “Kafir, as giving us the key to the great mass of kindred Negro (Prefix-pronominal) languages which fill almost the whole of South Africa and extend at least as far to the north-west as Sierra Leone; and the Hottentot, as exhibiting the most primitive form known of that large tribe of [Suffix-pronominal] languages which is distinguished by its Sex-denoting qualities, which fills North Africa, Europe and part of Asia, which includes the languages of the most highly cultivated

[...]

The connections Bleek established between the Bantu languages of southern Africa and those elsewhere in Africa are, as far as I am aware, relatively uncontroversial. Bleek’s hypothesis that the “Hottentot” language was a primary form of North African and Indo-European languages was more speculative and is seen by Dubow as an early expression of the pervasive Hamitic myth of African origins. Bleek had formulated his theories about the North African origins of “Hottentot” languages well before arriving in South Africa. Thornton indicates that his doctoral study compared the gender systems of “Kafir”, Herero, Sechuana and Nama with Berber, Galla, Coptic and Ancient Egyptian in order to substantiate claims that the Nama (“Hottentot”) language was related to North African languages.31

The peculiar characteristics which distinguish the Hottentots and Bushmen from the other South African nations, are such as range them with the nations of Northern Africa and Western Asia, as the Egyptians, the Semitic tribes and their widespread North African relations (e.g. the Tuarick, Galla &c) and probably also the Indo-European or Arian nations. ... Since the Hottentots ... have in general retained, most faithfully, the primitive and original state of their race, in customs, manners, language &c, a study of their peculiarities must be regarded as eminently important, nay, indispensible for attaining a knowledge of the pre-historical condition and unrecorded history of their kindred nations; and as these comprise, in many cases, some of the most advanced and civilised nations, should we not be entitled to infer that such researches, if once properly made, will prove of great interest for the history of mankind in general?

[...]

Bleek’s active involvement in an anthropometric project initiated by Thomas Huxley, one of Britain’s leading anthropologists and proponents of evolution also provides evidence of his scientific racism and undermines the romantic image of Bleek presented by San scholarship. This aspect of Bleek’s research has been documented in Michael Godby’s exciting article in the Miscast edition, which provides a more balanced and critical perspective on Bleek.37

A few interesting notes, you probably will embrace:

• Bleek’s writings that we see the beginnings of the shift towards the structures of thought that informed the intellectual racism in modern South Africa: its evolutionary assumptions and ideas of rigidly demarcated stages of human development, physical as well as cultural.

• It also attempts to begin to provide a bridge between my own work on racial ideology in the first half of the nineteenth century and Saul Dubow’s detailed study of scientific racism in South Africa in the early twentieth century.

• He explicitly expressed an interest in exploring the links between the language of the Bushman and the communication of primates and emphasised such links in his private correspondence and evolutionary study On the Origin of Language. It is arguably in Bleek’s writings that we see the beginnings of the shift towards the structures of thought that informed the intellectual racism in modern South Africa: its evolutionary assumptions and ideas of rigidly demarcated stages of human development, physical as well as cultural.

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ANTHROPOLOGY, RACE AND EVOLUTION: RETHINKING THE LEGACY OF WILHELM BLEEK


http://scnc.ukzn.ac.za/doc/SOC-cult/Race-Racism/Bank-A_Anthropology_race_evolution_Wilhelm_Bleek.pdf
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
The vast Saharan lakes are rarely tied into
multidisciplinary approaches on this topic.
This site shows local climate fluctuation
in the Green Sahara and may help calibrate
movements noted by the geneticists.

Note the extensive water system from the Haggar
through east Air down to near the confluence of
Benue and Niger rivers. A natural lane of communication.

quote:

---

Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of
Holocene Population and Environmental Change
Paul C. Sereno et al


Abstract
Background:
Approximately two hundred human burials were discovered
on the edge of a paleolake in Niger that provide a uniquely
preserved record of human occupation in the Sahara during the
Holocene (8000 BCE to the present). Called Gobero, this suite of
closely spaced sites chronicles the rapid pace of biosocial change
in the southern Sahara in response to severe climatic fluctuation.

Methodology/Principal Findings:
Two main occupational phases are identified that correspond with
humid intervals in the early and mid-Holocene, based on 78 direct
AMS radiocarbon dates on human remains, fauna and artifacts,
as well as 9 OSL dates on paleodune sand.

The older occupants have craniofacial dimensions that demonstrate
similarities with mid-Holocene occupants of the southern Sahara
and Late Pleistocene to early Holocene inhabitants of the Maghreb.
Their hyperflexed burials compose the earliest cemetery in the Sahara
dating to 7500 BCE. These early occupants abandon the area under
arid conditions

and, when humid conditions return, 4600 BCE, are replaced by
a more gracile people with elaborated grave goods including
animal bone and ivory ornaments.

Conclusions/Significance:
The principal significance of Gobero lies in its extraordinary human,
faunal, and archaeological record, from which we conclude the following:

1. The early Holocene occupants at Gobero (7700–6200 BCE)
   were largely sedentary hunter-fisher-gatherers with lakeside
   funerary sites that include the earliest recorded cemetery in
   the Sahara.
2. Principal components analysis of craniometric variables
   closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero
   with a skeletally robust,
   trans-Saharan assemblage of Late Pleistocene
   to mid-Holocene human populations from
   • the Maghreb
   • and southern Sahara.
3. Gobero was abandoned during a period of severe
   aridification possibly as long as one millennium (6200–5200 BCE) .
4. More gracile humans arrived in the mid-Holocene (5200–2500 BCE)
   employing a diversified subsistence economy based on clams, fish,
   and savanna vertebrates as well as some cattle husbandry.
5. Population replacement after a harsh arid hiatus is the
   most likely explanation for the occupational sequence
   at Gobero.
6. We are just beginning to understand the anatomical and
   cultural diversity that existed within the Sahara during the
   Holocene.

---

.

The Gobero Niger Kiffians and Tenereans.

They temporally correspond to the early Holocene hiatus
from and midHolocene beginnings to Nile Valley communities
that will found Egypt.
 

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Posted by Elite Diasporan (Member # 22000) on :
 
Would like to bump this.
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Much overlooked study of nrY DNA.
Very enlightening if used tandem
with full genome pan Africa data.

From it, I conclude E-M2 went north from Cameroun
to the African Humid Period North Tropical Africa
aka Green Sahara diversified and dispersed nearly
in all directions.





 

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Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 
I'm a little lost.
Which data are you citing for the fali having page-66 11Kya?

As of D.Antonasio... Page-66* is only in a single Senegambian (Mandinka) and E-V4257 which is carried by the Fali is only about 6.8Kya.

I mentioned something along the lines two years ago.

quote:

---

I see, but what's troublesome when you look at the age by mutation (which is the basis of this analysis). We might be tricked into thinking the Fali for example carry mutation that branched off 11.03kya. which isn't true. E-M4727* is the oldest mutation dated 10.53kyo in the Fali and it's Downstream from PAGGE66. Basal p66 isn't found among the Fali, the sister group E-V4257 which is 6.5kya is, but is immeasurable in comparison to mutations frequency Chadic Speakers/populations. That paints an entirely different picture with respect to the Phylogeny of E-M2.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:


Will be interesting to see how much of the Negro-Egyptian commonalities can be explained by this.

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I don't recall the specifics but I remember Asar saying something about how this map isn't anything close to cannon. I took that as you could move it to the side and go with the Green Sahara model with the 'Niger-Congo' relation to IE. Last I heard it is what Mboli's working on. When I wrote the movie script set in the Predynastic I assumed something like that map with Robert Bauval's location for Yam in black Genesis. I theorized that the the west African phenotype was initially more common in Yam, Temeh of Libya and Ta Mehu of lower Egypt than in upper Egypt.

I remember when Robert Bauval stated that

quote:

---

'Egyptians' were from a black Sub-Saharan race coming from the Tibesti mountains in northern Chad some 12,500 years ago.

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It was controversialish I guess. I took it as, Yam was a population hub. It's founding and desertification were both periods of shared ancestry with the Nile Valley.

Its ironic. The closest thing to a true negro element in ancient Egypt came from the bible's Ham which I wager is a reference to Yam. The Hamitic hypothesis was jackboot pseudo science that even contradicted the bible. No surprise that it will end up being the complete opposite of right.

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I love this and it makes sense.

Shouldn't bring any real controversy outside those already born out of keeping to the status quo and continuing to live within their own delusion and denial.

Even more so, when they're the ones keeping the bs alive.
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Not that its the only AHP X-Saharan nrY DNA
a breakdown by south north and America



D'Atanasio's Fig. 5
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

Was just on the Berber Encyclopedia today
and read an old Rock Art entry that laid
out proto-Fulani as the earlier (beef)
pastoralist while proto-African whites
pastured sheeps and goats (later pastors).
https://journals.openedition.org/encyclopedieberbere/2599


Both ancestral pops were living in W Afr Monsoon optimal Tasilli/Akakus Tropical North Africa.

Independent STRUCTURE-like graphs show Chenini --the only
'Berbers' without Fula I-- with Fula I and in the Levant. They
also show Fula I in Mykenaea. This Fula I exemplar ancestry
runs throughout most the African samples even if < 3%.

No telling what proto-Fulani spoke in the early-mid Holocene.
Mantel Test get language and genetics in kilter. As far as
E-M2 goes language affiliation today is 'Nilo-Saharan' and
'Niger-Congo' perhaps not then differentiated. Fulani are
known to adopt and abandon tongues. Oral traditions tell of
language barriers between an older generation and the first
generation phraty heads. Those Fulani who took over Hausa
Bakwai now themselves speak Hausa nearly exclusively.


OK back to the actual topic.



https://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/post/20298/thread

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That's an interesting hypothesis. So you think that caprid (goat/sheep) pastoralism was introduced by Eurasian immigrants. Do you think this explains the presence of R-V88



Perhaps it explains white figures in the Sahara like this


 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
So what was going on in the Green Sahara??

We have at least two major archaeological sites of activity-- Gobero in Niger and Tadrart Acacus in Libya.





Here is an excellent primer on Gobero by Ellen Briggs: 'People of the Green Sahara' (2010)

More from Paul Sereno the paleontologist who discovered the site: https://paulsereno.uchicago.edu/discoveries/people_of_the_green_sahara/the_gobero_story/

And here is a paper on Tadrart Acacus by Savino Di Lernia: Places, monuments, and landscape: Evidence from the Holocene central Sahara (2013)

The earliest known mummy in Africa that predates those of Egypt is Uan Muhuggiag child dubbed the 'black mummy' in a 2005 Discovery Channel documentary his remains were found close to Tadrart Acacus.




More mummies:

Medical imaging as a taphonomic tool: The naturally-mummified bodies from Takarkori rock shelter (Tadrart Acacus, SW Libya, 6100-5600 uncal BP)

What's interesting is that Uan Muhuggiag's mummied remains were found wrapped in animal skin which was the same type of burial custom the earlier Kiffian Culture of Gobero had.
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
That's an interesting hypothesis. So you think that caprid (goat/sheep) pastoralism was introduced by Eurasian immigrants. Do you think this explains the presence of R-V88

---

??? Where did I say that?

It's that the earlier art shows beeves with Black Africans
and the later art depicts ovicaprids with White Africans.
Your img example is better than the Berber Encyc one. That
author was one of Lhote's team and the art he puts up sure
looks too good to be true (oh no, not another White African
woman with an ostrich shell on her Afro coiffed head fake).

Don't see Eurasians in White Africans. ~40k indigenees.
Don't know enough about domestic sheep and goats to
even guess where they came from at the moment.


E-V2197 appears older in Africa than E-M18 does in S Europe.
S Eur V35 an offshoot of V2197 is younger than African V4963
and is post AHP Tropical North Africa. V1589 where the bulk of
Afr V88 lies is also post, or borderline post, AHP TNA.

I know what's above my payscale. Africa V88 origins are beyond me.

Our usual genomics posters aren't back from lunch I guess.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Neolithic Cultures of North Africa based on Josef Eiwanger 1987 classification



Orange: Caridial and Impressoceramics
Brown: Neolithic in Capsian tradition
light green: Sahara-Sudan cultures (Khartoum culture, Shaheinab culture)
red: Neolithic of the Niger
purple: Levant - Old Neolithic (Fayum Neolithic, Merimde)
green: Upper Egyptian Neolithic (Badari)

Eiwanger's classification was largely based on pottery yet the earliest pottery in the entire region is that of the Saharo-Sudanese culture known for their wavy lines and dots.

Examples of the above Saharo-Sudanese pottery from the Tenerean burials at Gobero


The Wavy Line and the Dotted Wavy Line Pottery
in the Prehistory of the Central Nile
and the Sahara-Sahel Belt (2003)
by Abbas S. Mohammed-Ali and Abdel-Rahim M. Khabi

A Swiss-led team of archaeologists has discovered pieces of the oldest African pottery in central Mali, dating back to at least 9,400 BC

Wavy line and dotted pottery sites in the Nile Valley and Sahara-Sahel Belt


Then there's cattle domestication. The earliest evidence of cow milk in Africa comes from traces found in a pottery shards in Takarkori rock shelter in the Tadrart Acacus as first discussed here.

First Dairying in Sahara 7000 Years Ago



Cattle portrayed in Tadrart Acacus rock art





^ note the saddle like backs characteristic of African cattle.

compare to Egyptian cattle...



or ancient Somali cattle...

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/C4BFD6/dhagax-khoure-ancient-rock-art-depicting-cattle-somaliland-somalia-C4BFD6.jpg
 

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Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
This African humpless longhorn breed still exists in Lake Chad Region among the Buduma people





The Egyptians had a short horn in the Old & New Kingdoms..



The Muturu, a trypanotolerant cattle breed is probably one of the least known breed of cattle in West Africa. Little has been published on its distribution, management, morphological characteristics or biological performance. Early reports showed that the Muturu cattle were once widely distributed across the continent from Liberia, across the West African subregion, to Ethiopia. However, due to expansion of the Zebu population and rapid urbanization, the small bodied animal came under pressure and was found surviving in pockets of the savannahs and in the humid forest zones where it had the comparative advantage of trypanotolerance. The survival of the cattle in the humid and forest zones of Nigeria stems from the fact that the animal is still sacred in so many communities and its milk is widely used for medicinal purpose

the short horn breed from Nigeria


In the New Kingdom, hump-backed zebuine cattle from Syria were introduced to Egypt, and seem to have replaced earlier types


The current Fulani heard Zebu (red and white)





Sanga or Ankole Watusi breed is the one seen many times on Egyptian ruins.. the horns are outurned

quote:

---

Sanga cattle is the collective name for indigenous cattle of sub-Saharan Africa. They are sometimes identified as a subspecies with the scientific name Bos taurus africanus.[1] These cattle originated in East Africa, probably the western shores of Lake Victoria, and have spread up the river Nile, with depictions on Ancient Egyptian murals. Sanga are an intermediate type, probably formed by hybridizing the indigenous humpless cattle with Zebu cattle.[2] However, archaeological evidence indicates this cattle type was domesticated independently in Africa, and bloodlines of taurine and zebu cattle were introduced only within the last few hundred years

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The Buduma humpless is a sub species of the Sanga
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ The Buduma breed of sanga in Western Africa is more pristine compared to other sanga especially in East Africa which is known to have zebu admixture. The zebu by the way did NOT enter Egypt from Syria but was introduced centuries after dynastic Egypt into the Horn via Arabia, and I don't think that dynastic portrait portrays a real zebu since the hump is too small.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/cms/asset/fc2730da-1aaa-4ecf-9f65-4d2e9a073e38/eva12674-fig-0001-m.jpg

^ Unfortunately the all too common belief is that cattle were not independently domesticated in Africa but were introduced. However both genetics and archaeo-biology are starting to change that. For example, genetics shows that African taurine (sanga) are much genetically closer to West Asian ones than to Indian zebu. However recent findings show that African and West Asian taurines diverged from their common ancestor farther back than was initially thought and that historical admixture between the two in Africa has masked it.

As I previously stated there are distinct physical features between the three taurine types mentioned.



Not only do African taurine have longer larger horns but they also have a dorsal depression or 'saddle-back' in contrast to the straight lined backs of the West Asian taurine.

Wim Van Neer an archaeo-biologist who studied cattle remains from predynastic and early dynastic Egypt wrote an article for Nekhen News back in 2010 here. He too thinks the difference in features are too striking and that the longer horned, saddle back, cattle find their depictions in the Sahara but not in the Middle East as to suggest independent domestication in Africa.

Sadly that hasn't stopped the Euronuts who now claim that both types (long horned and short horned) originated in Asia.



But as I said, more evidence is slowly changing that picture.


 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

??? Where did I say that?

---

quote:

---

It's that the earlier art shows beeves with Black Africans
and the later art depicts ovicaprids with White Africans.
Your img example is better than the Berber Encyc one. That
author was one of Lhote's team and the art he puts up sure
looks too good to be true (oh no, not another White African
woman with an ostrich shell on her Afro coiffed head fake).

Don't see Eurasians in White Africans. ~40k indigenees.
Don't know enough about domestic sheep and goats to
even guess where they came from at the moment.

---

quote:

---

E-V2197 appears older in Africa than E-M18 does in S Europe.
S Eur V35 an offshoot of V2197 is younger than African V4963
and is post AHP Tropical North Africa. V1589 where the bulk of
Afr V88 lies is also post, or borderline post, AHP TNA.

---

quote:

---

I know what's above my payscale. Africa V88 origins are beyond me.

Our usual genomics posters aren't back from lunch I guess.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
... Eurasian people as well carried R-V88 (?) Though I don't know what you mean by 40k white Africans. Unless you are referring to the Maghrebis of Cro-Magnon affiliation.

---

quote:

---

I as well as others including other experts thought Cruciani's claim to be silly

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quote:

---

Hg R is definitely Eurasian and upstream markers of R-V88 were found in Egypt and the Levant.

---

African R-V88 remains above my pay grade.
What conclusions I draw are based on the
OP article attributed to D'Atanasio et al.

I'd expect a trail to show where it entered
Africa. The African extension called SW Asia,
does it have that trail? This is a table reduced
to African R-V88 clade markers. All I can see is a
south-north corridor of Cameroon/eastern Nigeria/
western Chad/eastern Niger Fezzan/Mzab that I can't
date or guess direction(s)of flow(s).

D'Atanasio tables no shared continental Africa/SW Asia R-V88.
The sharing's with south Europe. But like I said African R-V88
is beyond me and D'Atansio ain't no be all end all source neither.
Everything I don't know will fill up libraries.
Seems like a the older I grow the lesser I know.




 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Yeah I think the above should be further discussed in a thread of its own to which I have a few things to further add.

Meanwhile back to the cultural features of the Central Saharans...

In Africa when it comes to body modification there are two main forms of dental alteration either dental filing/sharpening or dental avulsion.

Here is an excellent paper on the subject: Dental Ritual Mutilations and Forensic Odontologist Practice: a Review of the Literature (2015)

What's interesting is that I noticed that dental filing is common in equatorial to sub-equatorial regions while dental avulsion is common to equatorial to supra-equatorial areas. Curiously dental avulsion is most commonly practiced today by Nilo-Saharan speaking people from Sudan to tribes in Kenya and Tanzania and usually involved avulsion of the incisors.




During the Holocene the Central Sahara seemed to be a hub of this practice as well especially the Gobero site.

Recall the 2014 Stojanowski paper: Incisor avulsion, social identity and Saharan population history: New data from the Early Holocene southern Sahara



skulls from Gobero


According to the author based on statistical data of skulls found exhibiting incisor avulsion and their dates he concludes that the tradition originated among epipaleolithic Maghrebis (Maurusian), strangely he makes no mention of Natufians who exhibit the same trait who are contemporary with the Maurusians.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Then there are the mysterious megaliths...

https://www.iflscience.com/environment/the-western-sahara-is-covered-with-mysterious-ancient-stone-monuments/

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/archaeology-western-sahara-climate-change

https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2019/02/265192/archeologists-dmysterious-stones-western-sahara/

We all know about Nabta Playa in Egypt but few know about the stone circle in the Western Sahara territory south of Morocco that lies on the same latitude as Nabta Playa.





The large stone crops and the small stone circle corresponds to those found in Nabta Playa, but there also other structures..

the stepped bazina


Also close to the Atlantic coast are the Menhirs of Mzora







Also in the central part of the Sahara in Adrar Majet, Niger are stone crops as well as a perfect circle of stones.





I wonder how many other stone circles or structures there are in the Sahara both in the central area and Eastern Sahara.

Ancient megaliths are actually quite common in Africa including 'sub-Sahara' as was discussed here.
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Continuing with D'Atanasio's article on nrY DNA
found north and south of today's desert in the
living. I've redone some of my reduxes, with
some of elMaestro's critiques in mind, and can
also post screenshots of the xls tabled data and
how figure and table 'joins' led to the reduxes.

The phylogenies (in Figure 2b) for E-M2 and R-V88
are ready and will be posted after another check
for typos etc.

Haven't looked at A3-M13 or E-M78 except ferreting
associations between one ethnic or geo population
and all the others reported by D's team. So, far the
3 Fulbe pops 'pooled', Tuareg, and the south Nigerians.
Surprising relations, keeping in mind there are
also haplogroups not shared between peoples
on the parallel sides of Sahra not in D's article.

The 3 Ful could be mistaken as unrelated. Only
Cameroon Fula show trans-Sahra A3-M13. Other
than R-V516* in Niger Fula, Cameroon's Fula are
the only ones bearing R-V88.



 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:

Continuing with D'Atanasio's article on nrY DNA
found north and south of today's desert in the
living. I've redone some of my reduxes, with
some of elMaestro's critiques in mind, and can
also post screenshots of the xls tabled data and
how figure and table 'joins' led to the reduxes.

The phylogenies (in Figure 2b) for E-M2 and R-V88
are ready and will be posted after another check
for typos etc.

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quote:

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Haven't looked at A3-M13 or E-M78 except ferreting
associations between one ethnic or geo population
and all the others reported by D's team. So, far the
3 Fulbe pops 'pooled', Tuareg, and the south Nigerians.
Surprising relations, keeping in mind there are
also haplogroups not shared between peoples
on the parallel sides of Sahra not in D's article.

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quote:

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The 3 Ful could be mistaken as unrelated. Only
Cameroon Fula show trans-Sahra A3-M13. Other
than R-V516* in Niger Fula, Cameroon's Fula are
the only ones bearing R-V88.

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I do recall that A3-M13 occurs among Hausa speakers of northern Cameroon so it could go back my original question of language and ethnicity with one switching from Hausa to Fula or vice-versa.
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Hadta shrink tables for fit. I've asked for sharable upload
service storing lg files/pdfs but nobody suggested any.
You can download the entire xls sheet.
Google 13059_2018_1393_MOESM1_ESM.xlsx

Ful and Imoshag always get the limelight. Probably the
two most Euro loved W Afr ppl. They fascinate Euros as
a kind of proxy.


D'atanasio's A3-M13 sharing pop either side of Sahra.
Keep in mind D's focus is on possible AHP Sahra nrY.
Dunno what D's text says, haven't read it. Don't plan to.




Farsighted pattern indicates mostly NiloSaharan & Afrithrean
speakers in 6 main geographies specifying A3-M13 haplogroups.
* Central Sahel
* Great Lakes
* Yemen/Egy Oasis/N Medit Eur
* W/C Afr & N Egy
* N Cameroon & Great Lakes
* Horn & Jordan
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Elmaestro:

[. . .]

... outside of a single bamileke
and a single Ngambai individual
all carriers of E-M4727*
(the oldest M2 mutation found within Cameroon @ 10.52Kya
xM10,V5001,Z15939,A186,V2003,M58,V1891)
are either chadic speakers,
or nomadic (fulbe), ....

[. . .]

---

From the full viewpoint, I don't see it.
Nor the need for raw numbers instead of frequency.
All reported pops are of just 1 or 2 individual carriers.



In real life, all Cameroon Fulani I know are settled 'urbanites'.
Anyway, D reports E-M4727* Ful in Nigeria not in Cameroon.

quote:

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Also, what do you think of the odds of no E-m2 being found yet at the Shum-Laka site over the span of 3000 years before the bantu expansion?

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quote:

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Also, do you think the earlier E-m2 carriers resembled them (the six shum laka individuals) Autosomally?

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Haven't done the recent Shum Laka aDNA report.
In general about autosomes? I expect them to
vary by geography and at times by time itself.
All that random jumbling. But consider the
stability of Thuya's autosome profile and
variance in Fulani autosomes region by region
from 'SeneGambia' to Saudi Arabia.

How's that for a dodge? Nyuk nyuk

quote:

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Note that even though the amount of samples at that site are low, they still show 3,000 years of continuity
AND even populations in modern day cameroon (some of who can carry A0 found in the ancient individuals)
are more closely related to other West Africans and other E-M2 Carriers.

Also to ask the question again, what prevented dispersal prior to the humid phase, or the green sahara??

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
Thanks and continue to disagree where you see
fit because w/o constructive critique I might
miss something I need to correct this time.


Why isn't V4240 from A186 as vetted as V5001 & V4990?
Check out Column AS of Supplementary Table 5.
Is it worth writing Cruciani to verify only
Ouarzazate Tamazight have it and the entry
isn't misplaced or if another pop with it
missing from the table, etc.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
Here, lemme pick your brain hahah. What will
this article tell us when we try and take all
four A3 E-M2 E-M78 R-V88 and mesh them trying
to come up with anything coherent about the
markers, the ppls, and time and place itself?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
[QB]

quote:

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Originally posted by Elmaestro:

[. . .]

... outside of a single bamileke
and a single Ngambai individual
all carriers of E-M4727*
(the oldest M2 mutation found within Cameroon @ 10.52Kya
xM10,V5001,Z15939,A186,V2003,M58,V1891)
are either chadic speakers,
or nomadic (fulbe), ....

[. . .]

---

From the full viewpoint, I don't see it.
Nor the need for raw numbers instead of frequency.
All reported pops are of just 1 or 2 individual carriers.



In real life, all Cameroon Fulani I know are settled 'urbanites'.
Anyway, D reports E-M4727* Ful in Nigeria not in Cameroon.

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quote:

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22,000-17,200 BCE : Tomboura III, Shum Laka ; (Senegal, Cameroun)

11,000 BCE : Mayo Louti, Ndiayene Pendao, Shum Laka, Bingerville, Iwo Eleru, Fatandi V ;
__________ (Cameroon, _____ Senegal, ___ Cameroon, Cote d'Ivoire, Nigeria, Senegal)

8250 BCE : Ounjougou ; (Mali)


Doubt it's all the work of Rainforesters.
Is the only PAGE66 is in Gambia at all relevent?
What's the meaning of habitations in Senegal's
Tomboura and Cameroon's Shum Laka both in a span
from 35000 BP to 11000 BP even if contiguous not
continuous?

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quote:

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'Stro wrote:

... against using collective frequency of [a] haplogroup ... to pinpoint its origin or point of dispersal. ...

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quote:

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... I'm trying to ... account for how early Em2 mutations got where.

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quote:

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I Think it is relevant, unless we get new evidence re-assigning p66

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quote:

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The point about the [F]ulani is well stated, but we're talking about a 10kya mutation, so in regards to their lifestyles I'm speaking historically.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Forty2Tribes:
Swenet*

Caution against using R1b maps as an explanation for the movement of Chadic speakers in relation to E-M2.

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quote:

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R clusters with Indo-Euro so if you are going to assume they are Chadic speakers E-M2 might as well be T or G. Remember Mboli used mostly the same methods that created Indo-Euro.

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I don't understand what you mean. Egyptians have E-M2 from the Central Sahel, and they have R-V88 from the Central Sahel. Included in both Egyptian haplogroups are variations that have been differentiating in Egypt since the Middle Kingdom. What does that have to do with Indo-Europeans?
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Umma tell yez
After doing some table and figure joins
D is arbitrary in deciding on terminal
node representatives. What motivates
choice of sample population?

Eg., E-V4257's sample in Fig2 terminal
branch 70 is an Adamawa speaking north
Cameroon Fali. Why?

Why not the Mande speaking Gambian Mandinka
who has the 'parent' or the underived PAGE66*
and the sibling M4727* plus its downstream
Z15939* and V2003*, etc? Supportive of far
West Africa E-M2 origins and dispersal or not?

Barbados's got the most V7937*, so what?
No way to tell if it's ultimately from
Sierra Leone Mande or Cameroon Toupouri
just that its a part of a 6.43k lineage.

So after spending many hours producing
the below I've become disillusioned it
means anything. What can be gleaned
from the data except a marker exists
in a living person from somewhere of
whatever ethicity or nationality?

There're other things uncovered
that leave me in a morass when
it comes to interpretation.

Supplemetary Table 1 would be more
useful than ST5 if it included all
samples. Sorting it by haplogroup
or country or population reveals a
lot without straining eye and mind.

Maybe I need a break.





replaces www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009885;p=2#000062
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Forty2Tribes:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
A case of knowing enough to think I was right
but not enough to know that I was wrong.

Forty2Tribes please accept
1 - my apologies for the 2018 redux errors
2 - this corrected 2020 redux heeding critique especially from 'Stro.
Only terminal nodes had samples so fewer region, country, and people markups.




UPdated this one too but saw no need to post 'til now.

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Its gravy but
I'm still confused because the earlier estimate matches this.

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.

I had something in mind to somewhat clarify if
possible when extracting this but I forgot what.



Oh, ok, ihwas sumpenbout three diff node 84's
--in red blue and yellow-- each of its own date
and accompanying paragroup whose internal
variants are younger, often turning out much
younger, once fully derived to haplogroup status.
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
No misgivings about these E-M2 markers and their only solo pop in this research.


 

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Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 
@tukuler
relating to your inquiry about the OP study being viable. I don't see much conflict between this study and what we generally know about E-M2. The classification of the Ouazazate specific V4240 is unrefined. with more coverage we'll better understand the nature of this HG, but as it stands, the samples captured only coalesced to a few hundred years ago, That leaves room for quite a few reason as to how this mutation came about there. The more important mutation is A186* which stretches from Senegal to Egypt, and coalesced to over 5kya. It spans the maximum longitude of the African continent and is parent to V4240 which put it in some sort of context.

Now a much less reserved observation, or hypothesis, based on the topology of E-M2, is that during the last green sahara, the height of the diversification of E-M2 took place within the sahel and north. As in, ~13°north and above. And it was the drying of the Sahara that gradually pushed more people south into the GGP basin and into southern Africa. I believe the only area without the latitudinal boundary was East Africa which is how we can have E-M58 coming off of V4727 for example, which isn't generally found in central,western Africa but spans the greatlakes and South Africa.
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
I sent this letter and img to Cruciani last month on the 30th.
I have received a reply from the humble D'Atanasio herself.

quote:

---

Hi

Hopes this finds you and yours in good health and spirit.

Can you help me and confirm or deny the attached
S T5 image is accurate, that those 10 markers are
appearing only in one particular population and
that indicates specificity?

Is the quality of belonging or relating uniquely to a
particular subject enough for genetic specificity?

For instance is there some SNP panel refinement
needed before say V4240 can be Ouarzazate specific
or is its tabling only in one cell enough to call specificity?

Also, are any specificities only applicable to the
both sides Sahara focus of this research or is
its data and interpretation good across the board?

Thanks in advance from a genetics tyro
but follower of your African nrY work for
a decade.

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quote:

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Map of the populations analysed. Geographic positions of the populations from Africa, southern Europe and Near East are shown. For population labels refer to Additional file 1: Table S5

The peopling of the last Green Sahara revealed by high-coverage resequencing of trans-Saharan patrilineages
Eugenia D’Atanasio
2018

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quote:

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Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
I see Egyptsearch didn't get a hold of this study yet... Anyways, NO derailing/offtopic nonsense otherwise it will be removed or worse. Anyhow...

https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-018-1393-5

Results

quote:

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In order to investigate the role of the last Green Sahara in the peopling of Africa, we deep-sequence the whole non-repetitive portion of the Y chromosome in 104 males selected as representative of haplogroups which are currently found to the north and to the south of the Sahara. We identify 5,966 mutations, from which we extract 142 informative markers then genotyped in about 8,000 subjects from 145 African, Eurasian and African American populations. We find that the coalescence age of the trans-Saharan haplogroups dates back to the last Green Sahara, while most northern African or sub-Saharan clades expanded locally in the subsequent arid phase.

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Conclusions

quote:

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Our findings suggest that the Green Sahara promoted human movements and demographic expansions, possibly linked to the adoption of pastoralism. Comparing our results with previously reported genome-wide data, we also find evidence for a sex-biased sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africans, suggesting that historical events such as the trans-Saharan slave trade mainly contributed to the mtDNA and autosomal gene pool, whereas the northern African paternal gene pool was mainly shaped by more ancient events

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Now the deal breaker for MANY with this study was the fact that E-M2 may in fact be ancient North Africa. I've seen this image posted around ES a lot and could E-M2 really have migrated down into what is today West Africa during the wet phase of the Sahara.


But a disappointing thing that many pointed out was that there were no Sudanese samples. Anyways thoughts?

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quote:

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https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-018-1410-8

A history of male migration in and out of the Green Sahara
Yali Xue
Genome Biology volume 19, Article number: 30 (2018)

D’Atanasio and colleagues to construct a dated phylogenetic tree. This tree, shown in a simplified form in Fig. 1a,

Figure 1
Simplified Y-chromosomal phylogeny and inferred past or observed present-day distribution of relevant Y-chromosomal lineages.

a) Calibrated phylogenetic tree of Y-chromosomal lineages discussed in the text. Green shading represents the period when the present-day Sahara Desert was green and fertile. Lineages represented by filled pentagons have undergone very rapid expansions.

b) The Green Sahara period 5–12 kya. Green shading indicates that the present-day Sahara Desert was green and fertile. The colors within the large oval represent the four Y-chromosomal haplogroups deduced to be present in the region at this time; specific locations are not implied. The arrows indicate the inferred origins of these haplogroups to the north or south, but specific origins and routes are not implied.

c) The present-day distributions of the four Green Saharan Y-chromosomal haplogroups. Yellow shading indicates the Sahara Desert. Each circle represents a sampled population, with the presence or absence of the four Green Saharan haplogroups shown by the colored sectors; other haplogroups may also be present in these populations, but are not shown. The small arrows indicate the inferred northwards and southwards movements of these haplogroups when the Sahara became uninhabitable. Figure based on data from [1]

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Interesting maps here depicting haplogroups hypothetically in the Green Sahahra b)
and then c), of the present day sample (refers back to the main article, see map at top of the post)
The circles in 1 c are not percentages of each haplogroup, just equally divided between the haplogroups they found in their samples for each country
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ So according to Yali Xue, E-M78 is Eurasian?? LOL


 

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Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ So according to Yali Xue, E-M78 is Eurasian?? LOL

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quote:

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The authors extended their findings by genotyping 142 informative SNPs (many newly discovered in this study) in 7955 additional men from 145 African, Eurasian and African-American populations. This enabled them to better understand both the likely origins of the four haplogroups earlier than 12 kya (Fig. 1b) and the locations of the present-day descendants (Fig. 1c). E-M78 and R-V88 [3] probably originated from the north because the most closely related lineages were found there, and A-M13 and E-M2 from the south.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] ^ So according to Yali Xue, E-M78 is Eurasian?? LOL

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quote:

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The peopling of the last Green Sahara revealed by high-coverage resequencing of trans-Saharan patrilineages
Eugenia D’Atanasio
2018

E-M78 is a widespread lineage, with significant frequencies in Africa, Europe and the Middle East [33, 34]. Within the African continent, three E-M78 sub-clades (E-V22, E-V12 and E-V264) show different frequencies in different regions. E-V22 is mainly an eastern African sub-haplogroup, with frequencies of more than 80 % in the Saho population from Eritrea, but it has also been reported in Egypt and Morocco [34,35,36]. E-V12 is relatively frequent in northern and eastern Africa, but it has also been reported outside Africa at lower frequencies [33,34,35]. The vast majority of the eastern African E-V12 chromosomes belong to the internal clade E-V32, which has also been observed in northern and central Africa at very low frequencies [12, 33,34,35]. E-V264 is subdivided into two sub-clades: E-V65, common in northern Africa; and E-V259, which includes few central African chromosomes


The distribution and age estimates of different E-M78 sub-haplogroups show a strong parallelism. Excluding the E-V13 subclade, which has been linked to the Neolithic transition in the Near East [34], all the other three major E-M78 lineages (E-V264, E-V22 and E-V12) include a Mediterranean clade (harbouring northern African, near-eastern and southern European samples) and a sub-Saharan clade (Fig. 3b; Additional file 2: Figure S5). The age estimates of the nodes joining the lineages from these two macro-areas are quite concordant (12.30 kya for E-V264, 11.01 kya for E-V22 and 10.01 kya for E-V12) and correspond to the beginning of the humid phase in the eastern Sahara, where E-M78 probably originated [34, 35]. After the end of the last Green Sahara (~ 5 kya), the differentiation is sharp, with no lineages including both Mediterranean and sub-Saharan subjects. The sub-Saharan clades E-V264/V259 and E-V22/V3262 are restricted to central Sahel and eastern Africa (mainly the Horn of Africa), respectively, whereas E-V12/V32 is very frequent in eastern Africa but it also includes a central Sahelian clade, suggesting a Sahelian movement between 5.99 and 5.17 kya.

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quote:

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https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-018-1410-8

A history of male migration in and out of the Green Sahara
Yali Xue
Genome Biology volume 19, Article number: 30 (2018)

The authors extended their findings by genotyping 142 informative SNPs (many newly discovered in this study) in 7955 additional men from 145 African, Eurasian and African-American populations. This enabled them to better understand both the likely origins of the four haplogroups earlier than 12 kya (Fig. 1b) and the locations of the present-day descendants (Fig. 1c). E-M78 and R-V88 [3] probably originated from the north because the most closely related lineages were found there, and A-M13 and E-M2 from the south.

North of the Sahara, in addition to the four trans-Saharan haplogroups, haplogroup E-M81 (which diverged from E-M78 ~ 13 kya) became very common in present-day populations as a result of another massive expansion ~ 2 kya [6] (Fig. 1a).

Although Y chromosomes exist within populations and so share and reflect the general history of those populations, they can sometimes show some departures from other parts of the genome that result from differences in male and female behaviors. D’Atanasio et al. [1] highlight one such contrast in their study. Present-day North African populations show substantial sub-Saharan autosomal and mtDNA genetic components ascribed to the Roman and Arab slave trades 1–2 kya [7], but carry few sub-Saharan Y lineages from this source, probably reflecting the smaller numbers of male slaves and their reduced reproductive opportunities when compared to those of female slaves. The sub-Saharan Y chromosomes in these North African populations thus originate predominantly from the earlier Green Sahara period.

In this part of Africa, the indigenous languages that are spoken belong to three of the four African linguistic families (Afro-Asiatic, Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo). Interestingly, these languages show non-random associations with Y lineages. For example, Chadic languages within the Afro-Asiatic family are associated with haplogroup R-V88, whereas Nilo-Saharan languages are associated with specific sublineages within A3-M13 and E-M78, further illustrating the complex human history of the region.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:

One can note that Yali Xue is a Chinese researcher who has written different genetics studies, among others about positive selection in admixed populations from Ethiopia. She has also written about a Southeast Asian origin for present-day non-African human Y chromosomes.

She writes in the article above

quote:

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The authors extended their findings by genotyping 142 informative SNPs (many newly discovered in this study) in 7955 additional men from 145 African, Eurasian and African-American populations. This enabled them to better understand both the likely origins of the four haplogroups earlier than 12 kya (Fig. 1b) and the locations of the present-day descendants (Fig. 1c). E-M78 and R-V88 [3] probably originated from the north because the most closely related lineages were found there, and A-M13 and E-M2 from the south.

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Dr Yali Xue

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