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Wait a minute. My position is that the first cultural-Archaeological evidence for Fulani traits appear in Late Stone Age Sahara at Tassili n'Ajjer in southeast Algeria.
You've favored a 12th dynasty Egyptian origin for Fulani based on I don't know what.
One people can't originate in two different places at two different times. So which is it? Is it the Sahara, and precisely when and where in the Sahara, or is it Dynastic Egypt? Please choose one or the other.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: This statement is what I have been claiming all along that these people came from the Sahara.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Fula speak a language that is part of the Niger-Congo group.There is controversy surrounding the homeland of Niger-Congo.But most linguist place the homeland for this linguistic group in the Nile Valley. An origin of the Niger-Congo people in the Nile Valley would explain the close relationship between the Fulani and Egyptian languages; and place Fulani in East Africa.
For example, Jaja, J. M. 2008 “Interdisciplinary Methods for the Writing of “African History: A Reappraisal,” European Journal of Social Sciences 5(4): 55-65
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(2) Niger – Kordofanian homeland The West African region is largely made up of the Niger-Kordofanian language family. The block of course excludes the 100 or 50 languages classified as Afro-Asiatic and the Songhai and Kanuri languages which belong to the Nile -–Saharan group. The Niger – Kordofanian family is composed of three large blocks called the Mande, Niger – Congo and Kordofanian. Niger – Congo occupies the eastern section of West Africa, Mande the Western section and Kordofanian the area to the south west of Sudan. The present geographical location of these three language blocks forms a fanlike structure, which suggests that their homeland is at the south-western Sahara where the boundaries of each group converge. The Mande group does not have the same degree of internal diversity as the Niger – Congo and Kordofanian. But Niger-Congo and Kordofanian have the same degree of diversity. (Dalby 1965). A combination of this fact and the fan-shaped arrangement of the three language blocks suggests that they belong to the same main language family. Besides, the unfavourable ecological situation north of the homeland, and the possibility of only moving southwards explains the fan-shaped nature of the dispersal to the area of southwestern Sahara.
Jaja discusses the present location of the speakers of these languages, but like Welmers he situates there homeland in the Sahara near Nubia.
McIntosh, R. J. 1998 The Peoples of the Middle Niger: the Island of Gold Oxford: Blackwell Publishers
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Thus, we have a curious—and complex—pattern of prehistoric occupation in the Méma. There are a few sites demonstrably earlier than c. 4500-4000 BP [3.3-2.5 KBC]. There is a flourit of stone-using communities around 3500-3300 BP [1.9-1.6KBC] (with population injections from the Hodh and the Azawad). Then the region suffers an apparent sharp fall-off of population at c. 800-500 BC (despite a final infusion of Tichitt folk at mid-millennium)..
Does not contradict Welmer’s, all it says is that people from Dar Tichitt entered the area around 800-500 BC, this was hundreds of years after the Mande had established settlement in the Dar Tichitt region.
Roger Blench, Is Niger-Congo simply a branch of Nilo-Saharan, Nilo-Saharan ,(1995) 10:83-128, like Welmer’s noted that :
"Previous writers, noting the concentration of families in West Africa, have tended to assume a location somewhere near the headwaters of the Niger and explained Kordofanian by the migration of a single group. If the present classification is accepted, it becomes far more likely that the homeland was in in the centre of present-daySudan and the Kordofanian represents the Niger-Congo speakers who stayed at home (p.98)."
Roger Blench. 2006. Archaeology, Language, and the African Past New York: Altamira Press
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pp. 132-133. With some misgivings, Table 3.4 puts forward dates and possible motives for expansion for the families of Niger-Congo. The dates are arranged in order of antiquity, not in the hypothetical order suggested by the genetic tree, and, in many cases the two are strongly at variance. There is no necessary correlation between the age of a family estimated from its apparent internal diversity and the date at which it appears to split from the Niger-Congo tree.. . . . .
MANDE 6000 BP Mande languages have spread from north to south with scattered outliers in Nigeria and Cote d’Ivoire. Mande shares the common Niger-Congo roots for cow and goat, and perhaps the Proto-Mande were an isolated livestock-keeping population at the edge of the desert, which expanded southward as habitat change created potential space for livestock keeping. Reconstructions implying cropping are not present in the protolanguage.
Christopher Ehret. 2000 “Language and History,” in B. Heine and D. Nurse, eds. African Languages.An Introduction pp. 274-297 Canbridge: Cambridge University Press
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p. 294 A second, but still early and important stage in Niger-Congo history was the proto-Mande-Congo era. At this period, or so it appears from the evidence of word histories, the cultivation of the guinea yam and possibly other crops, such as the oil palm, began among at least the peoples of the Atlantic and Ijo-Congo branches of the family (Williamson 1993 proposes the early words for these crops; Greenberg 1964 identifies an Atlantic and Ijo-Congo verb for cultivation, •-lim-). Between possibly about 8000 and 6000 BC, these people spread across the woodland savannahs of West Africa, the natural environment of the Guinea yams. At that time, woodland savannah environments extended several hundred kilometers farther north into the Sudan belt than they do today.
The Blench hypothesis of the Mande living in the Sahara and moving southward does not conflict with my theory of a Saharan origin for the Mande speakers.
The term lim, is not the Mande term to cultivate.
In al-Imfeld, Decolonizing: African Agricultural History (2007) , claims that in relation to African agriculture the cultivation of yam began 10,000 years ago and rice cultivation in Africa by 6000 BC.
The major cultivated crop of the Mande speakers was millet not the yam. The term for cultivation among the Mande was not lim is Proto-Paleo-Afro-Dravidian *be . Millet was probably cultivated over 5000 years ago.
The earliest sites for the cultivation of millet lie in the Sahara . Here the earliest archaeological evidence has been found for African millets.
The major grain exploited by Saharan populations was rice ,the yam and pennisetum. McIntosh and McIntosh (1988) has shown that the principal domesticate in the southern Sahara was bulrush millet (pennisetum). Millet impressions have been found on Mande ceramics from both Karkarchinkat in the Tilemsi Valley of Mali, and Dar Tichitt in Mauritania between 4000 and 3000 BP. (McIntosh & McIntosh 1983a,1988; Winters 1986b; Andah 1981)
The linguistic evidence indicates that the Mande and Dravidian speakers formerly lived in intimate contact , in the Sahara. The speakers of these languages share many terms for agriculture.
Given the archaeological evidence for millets in the Sahara, leads to the corollary theory that if the Dravidians originated in Africa, they would share analogous terms for millet with African groups that formerly lived in the Sahara.
One of the principal groups to use millet in Africa are the Northern Mande speaking people . The Mande speaking people belong to the Niger-Congo group. Most linguist agree that the Mande speakers were the first Niger-Congo group to leave the original Nile Valley and Saharan highland primary homeands of the Niger-Congo speakers.
The Northern Mande speakers are divided into the Soninke and Malinke-Bambara groups. Holl (1985,1989) believes that the founders of the Dhar Tichitt site where millet was cultivated in the 2nd millenium B.C., were northern Mande speakers. To test this theory we will compare Dravidian and Black African agricultural terms, especially Northern Mande. The linguistic evidence suggest that the Proto-Dravidians belonged to an ancient sedentary culture which existed in Saharan Africa. We will call the ancestor of this group Paleo-Dravido-Africans.
The Dravidian terms for millet are listed in the Dravidian Etymological Dictionary at 2359, 4300 and 2671. A cursory review of the linguistic examples provided below from the Dravidian (Kol, Tamil ,Kannanda, & Malayalam ) , Mande and Wolof languages show a close relationship between these language. These terms are outlined below:
code:
Kol sonna --- --- ---- Wolof (AF.) suna --- ---- --- Mande (AF) suna bara, baga de-n, doro koro Tamil connal varaga tinai kural Malayalam colam varaku tina --- Kannanda --- baraga, baragu tene korale,korle *sona *baraga *tenä *kora
Below we will compare other Dravidian and African agricultural terms. These terms come from the Mande languages (Malinke, Kpelle, Bambara, Azer, Soninke), West Atlantic (Wolof, Fulani), Afro-Asiatic (Oromo, Galla), Somali, Nubian and the ancient Egyptian. The Paleo-Dravido-Africans came from a sedentary culture that domesticated cattle and grew numerous crops including wheat and millet. The Egyptian term for cultivation is Ø b j(w) #. Egyptian Ø b j(w) # corresponds to many African terms for cultivation:
code:
Galla baji 'cultivated field' Tulu (Dravidian language) bey, benni Nubian ba, bat 'hoe up ground' Malinke be Somali beer Wolof mbey, ambey, bey Egyptian b j(w) Sumerian buru, bur 'to root up'
These terms for cultivate suggest that the Paleo-African term for cultivate was *be.
The Egyptian term for grain is 0 sa #. This corresponds to many African terms for seed,grain:
code:
Galla senyi Malinke se , si Sumerian se Egyptian sen 'granary' Kannanda cigur
Bozo sii Bambara sii Daba sisin Somali sinni Loma sii Susu sansi Oromo sanyi Dime siimu Egyptian ssr 'corn' id. ssn 'lotus plant' id. sm 'herb, plant' id. isw 'weeds'
The identification of a s>Ø/#_________e pattern for 'seed,grain' in the above languages suggest that these groups were familiar with seeds at the time they separated into distinct Supersets. The fact that Sumerian Ø se # and Egyptian Ø sen #, and Malinke Ø se # are all separated both in time and geographical area highlight the early use of seeds * se , by Paleo-Dravido-Africans.
code:
Rice Soninke dugo Vai ko'o Manding malo Dravidian mala-kurula Mende molo, konu Kpelle moloy Boko mole Bisa muhi Busa mole Sa mela Bambara kini
Yam Bozo ku, kunan Vai jambi Malinke ku Dravidian kui, kuna, ku Bambara ku
It would appear that all the Proto-Dravidians were familiar with the cultivation of rice, yams and millet. This is not surprising because Weber (1998) made it clear that millet cultivation in ancient South Asia was associated with rice cultivation.
The linguistic evidence clearly show similarities in the Afican and Dravidian terms for plant domesticates. This suggest that these groups early adopted agriculture and made animal domestication secondary to the cultivation of millet, rice and yams. The analogy for the Malinke-Bambara and Dravidians terms for rice, millet and yams suggest a very early date for the domestication of these crops.
In summary, population pressure in the Sahara during a period of increasing hyperaridity forced hunter/gather/fisher Proto-Dravido-African people to first domesticate animals and then crops. The linguistic evidence discussed above indicate that the Proto-Dravido-African people migrated out of the Nile Valley to West African and Harappan sites with millet, yam and rice already recognized as principal domesticated crop.
This comparison of Mande agricultural terms make it clear, that just like the Egyptian term for dog uher , the speakers of these languages share the terms for cultivate, and seed. It also shows that before the Dravidians separated from the Mande speakers these groups were cultivating also cultivating rice and the yam.
The Niger-Congo speakers which include the Fula, Mande and Wolof originated in the Nile Valley—not West Africa. They migrated from East to West. The oral traditions of these people make it clear that when they arrived on the scene pygmy people were already settled in many areas they occupied.
quote: Wm. E. Welmers. 1971 "Niger-Congo, Mande" in T.A. Sebeok, et al. eds. Linguistics in sub-Saharan Africa (Current Trends in Linguistics, 7), pp. 113-140 The Hague: Mouton
P 119-120. By way of conclusion to this general overview of the Mande languages, a a bit of judicious speculation about Mande origins and migrations may not be out of order. It has already been stated that the Mande languages clearly represent the earliest offshoot from the parent Niger-Congo stock—not counting Kordofanian, which Greenberg considers parallel to all of the Niger-Congo, forming a Niger-Kordofanian macrofamily. An original Niger-Congo homeland in the general vicinity of the upper Nile valley is probably as good a hypothesis as any. From such a homeland, a westward Mande migration may have begun well over 5000 years ago. Perhaps the earliest division within this group resulted in the isolation of what is now represented only by Bobo-fing. Somewhat later— perhaps 3500 to 4500 years ago, and possibly from a new homeland around northern Dahomey [now Benin]— the ancestors of the present Northern-western Mande peoples began pushing farther west, ultimately reaching their present homeland in the grasslands and forests of West Africa. This was followed by a gradual spread of the Southern-Eastern division, culminating perhaps 2000 years ago in the separation of its to branches and the ultimate movement of Southern Mande peoples southeast and westward until Mano and Kpelle, long separated, became once more contiguous.
This reconstruction of Mande prehistory receives striking support from a most unexpected source— dogs. Back in the presumed Niger-Congo homeland—the southern Sudan and northern Uganda of modern times— is found the unique barkless, worried-looking, fleet Basenji, who also appears on ancient Egyptian monuments with the typical bee that compensates for his natural silence. Among the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia, a breed of dogs is found which is so closely identical to the Basenji that it now recognized as the ‘Liberian Basenji’. In all of the Sudan belt of Africa from the Nile Valley to the Liberian forest, the dogs are somewhat similar in appearance, but very obviously mongrelized. It would appear that the Mande peoples originally took their Basenji dogs with them in their westward migration. At that time, the present Sahara desert was capable of sustaining a substantial population, and was presumably the homeland of the Nilo-Saharan peoples. The early Mande moment thus may have been through uninhabited land, and their dogs were spared any cross-breeding. The farthest westward Mande movement—that of the Southwestern group—was virtually complete before contact with dogs of other breeds. With the gradual drying of the Sahara and the southward movement of the Nilo-Saharan peoples, the remaining Mande peoples, as well as later waves of Niger-Congo migration made contact with other people and other dogs. The present canine population of the Liberian forests thus reflects the very early departure of the Mande peoples from their original homeland, and the subsequent early movement of the Southwestern group towards its present location, without contacting substantial number of unrelated people or dogs.
Liberian Basenji
Egyptian Basenji Egyptian Basenji Dog Hieroglyph
. Trade might account for the presence of Basenji dogs in both places. But, from the sense of the article, Welmers claims that speakers of other African languages surrounding the Kpelle have different dogs.
The term for Basenji may be uher. In Egyptian uher also means house, so some people claim the Egyptians placed a dog size after uher to denote the term dog.
Niger-Congo hunters probably early domesticated the dog. Hunters used dogs to catch their prey .
Egyptian Hieroglyph
.
Egyptian term for dog corresponds to many African, and Dravidian terms for dog:
Egptian uher
Azer wulle
Bozo kongoro
Guro bere
Vai wuru, ulu
Bo[Bambara] -ulu
Wassulunka wulu
Konyanka wulu
Malinke wuli, wuru, wulu
Dravidian ori
.
The above data indicates that there is contrast between Paleo-Afican l =/= r. The Egyptian Ø uher # , Azer Ø wulle # and Manding Ø wuru # suggest that the r > l in Paleo-African.
There is also vowel alternation in the terms for dog o =/= u. The predominance of the vowel /u/ in the terms for dog, make it clear that o<u. This evidence suggest that there are two Paleo-African terms for dog: Paleo-African [PA] *uru and *oro.
Futhermore, this comparison of the term for dog within and among Niger-Congo languages and Egyptian supports Welmers view that the dog was domesticated in the Nile Valley before the speakers of these languages separated, and migrated to other parts of Africa.
The key to science, is that control is used to test the cause of a hypothesis, layman rarely use control, they accept a hypothesis gased on belief and biases.
Finally scientists test relationships to determine their validity. Science is concerned only with things that can be tested and observed.
Let's look at Welmers hypothesis. All research begins with a research question.
Research Question: Where did the Niger Congo speakers originate?
Null hypothesis: There is no relationship between the present location of the Niger-Congo speakers and the original homeland of the speakers of these languages.
Result: The Niger Congo speakers probably originated in the Nile Valley because the Kpelle , who speak a Mande language, have the basanji dog, which was the domesticated dog of the Egyptians and other Nile Valley people.
The hypothesis was further supported by a most interesting finding, that was that the basanji dog is not the hunting dog of other ethnic groups inhabiting areas between the Nile Valley and where the Mande speakers live.
Welmers hypothesis was confirmed. To disconfirm this hypothesis you have to present evidence that nullifies the findings of Welmers.
To test Welmers hypothesis, I compared the Egyptian term for dog and the Mande term for dog. The linguistic evidence supports the physical evidence discussed by Welmer. Wm. E. Welmers identified the Niger Congo home land. Welmers in "Niger-Congo Mande", Current trends in Linguistics 7 (1971), pp.113-140,explained that the Niger-Congo homeland was in the vicinity of the upper Nile valley (p.119). He believes that the Westward migration began 5000 years ago.
In support of this theory he discusses the dogs of the Niger-Congo speakers. This is the unique barkless Basenji dogs which live in the Sudan and Uganda today, but were formerly recorded on Egyptian monuments (Wlemers,p.119). According to Welmers the Basanji, is related to the Liberian Basenji breed of the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia. Welmers believes that the Mande took these dogs with them on their migration westward. The Kpelle and Loma speak Mande languages.
He believes that the region was unoccupied when the Mande migrated westward. In support of this theory Welmers' notes that the Liberian Banji dogs ,show no cross-breeding with dogs kept by other African groups in West Africa, and point to the early introduction of this cannine population after the separation of the Mande from the other Niger-Congo speakers in the original upper Nile homeland for this population. As a result, he claims that the Mande migration occured before these groups entered the region.
Linguistic research make it clear that there is a close relationship between the Niger-Congo Superlanguage family and the Nilo-Saharan languages spoken in the Sudan. Heine and Nurse (Eds.), in African languages: An introduction , Cambridge University Press, 2000, discuss the Nilo-Saharan connection. They note that when Westerman (1911) described African languages he used lexical evidence to include the Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo languages into a Superfamily he called "Sudanic" (p.16). Using Morphological and lexical similarities Gregerson (1972) indicated that these languages belonged to a macrophylum he named " Kongo-Saharan" (p.16). Research by Blench (1995) reached the same conclusion, and he named this Superfamily: "Niger-Saharan".
Genetic evidence supports the upper Nile origin for the Niger-Congo speakers. Rosa et al, in Y-Chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau (2007), noted that while most Mande & Balanta carry the E3a-M2 gene, there are a number of Felupe-Djola, Papel, Fulbe and Mande carry the M3b*-M35 gene the same as many people in the Sudan.
In conclusion, Welmers proposed an upper Nile (Sudan-Uganda) homeland for the Niger-Congo speakers. He claims that they remained intact until 5000 years ago. This view is supported by linguistic and genetics evidence. The linguistic evidence makes it clear that the Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo languages are related. The genetic evidence indicates that Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo speakers carry the M3b*-M35 gene, an indicator for the earlier presence of speakers of this language in an original Nile Valley homeland.
In summary Welmer’s makes two key points: 1) the Mande migration began around 3000BC out of the Nile Valley; and 2)Welmers proposed migration from Benin around 1500BC, 1500 years after the initial migration of the Mande from the Nile Valley.
posted
First the founders of the first Dynasty of Egypt came from the south. They originally lived in the highland regions like Tassili before the area became arid.
No one in this discussion disagrees with the fact that the Fula also inhabited this region.
As I have noted in previous post and discussed by Diop in his numerous books, in relation to Egypt three things exist.
First, the original power in Egypt was the Anu. The Anu were conquered by Narmar.
Secondly, the Berbers did not originate in Africa they are the result of the Vandels and populations from Arabia and only recently arrived on the scene.
Thirdly, the civilization of Egypt came from the South.
Let's begin the discussion
A comparison of Egyptian, Niger-Kordofanian-Mande, Elamite,Dravidian and Sumerian indicates that they diverged from a common ancestor. The Dravidian examples discussed below are taken from Tamil. All of these languages share pronouns and demonstrative bases. (Winters 1989a) This is proven by a comparison of three terms: chief, city and black.
TABLE 1 _________________________________________________________________ Language Chief city,village black/burnt Dravidian cira,ca uru kam Elamite salu Sumerian sar ur Manding sa furu kami 'Charcoal' Nubian sirgi amr uru-me Semitic sarr ham Ubaid sar ur Egyptian sr mer kemit 'blackland' Hausa sarki birni Paleo-African *Sar *uru *kam
The above examples from languages spoken by blacks validates Diop's theory that there were cognate black civilizations in Africa and Asia, before the expansion of the Indo-European speaking peoples after 1500 BC. This linguistic data which is outlined in further detail elsewhere (Winters 1985b,1989a) illustrates that a common cultural macrostructure is shared by these speakers, which subsequently evolved along separate lines. Given the genetic unity of these languages we should call this group B(lack) Af(rican), Su(merian), Draa(vidian), (E)lam or Bafsudraalam Superset of languages. This supports Diop's use of the comparative method to illuminate the African past.
Yurco (1989,p.29) also falsely states that the Berber speakers were Libyans. This is false, as proven by Diop (1977). Diop (1977) illustrates that the Berber genealogies place their origin in Saudi Arabia, and point to a very recent settlement (2000 years ago) in the Central Sahara. Diop (1977) believes that the Berbers are the result of the early mixture of Africans and Germanic speaking Vandals. (Diop 1986) This would explain the evident close relationship between the Berber and German languages.
The original inhabitants of the Sahara where the Kemetic civilization originated were Blacks not Berbers or Indo-European speakers. These Blacks formerly lived in the highland regions of the Fezzan and Hoggar until after 4000 BC. This ancient homeland of the Dravidians, Egyptians, Sumerians, Niger-Kordofanian-Mande and Elamite speakers is called the Fertile African Crescent. (Anselin, 1989, p.16; Winters, 1981,1985b,1991). We call these people the Proto-Saharans (Winters 1985b,1991). The generic term for this group is Kushite. This explains the analogy between the Bafsudraalam languages outlined briefly above. These Proto-Saharans were called Ta-Seti and Tehenu by the Egyptians. Farid(1985,p.82) noted that "We can notice that the beginning of the Neolithic stage in Egypt on the edge of the Western Desert corresponds with the expansion of the Saharian Neolithic culture and the growth of its population". (emphasis that of author).
Kemetic (Egyptian) civilization came from the south not the North as alleged by Yurco (1989). Martel (1992) does admit that Kemetic civilization came from the Saharan Highlands:The Mountains of the Moon, but he failed to admit that Diop's (1974) hypothesis that Kemetic civilization and writing came from the south was proven by the excavations at Qustul. (Williams 1987; Anselin 1989)
The inhabitants of ancient Nubia and Kush are called A-Group, C-Group and etc. by archaeologists. The artifacts found in the A-Group royal cemetery of the Nubians in Ta-Seti at Qustul were the founders of Kem. Bruce Williams (1987,p.173) of the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago has made it clear that the Qustul pharaohs are the Egyptian rulers referred to as the "Red Crown Rulers".
There are similarities between Egyptian and Saharan motifs (Farid,1985). It was in the Sahara that we find the first evidence of agriculture, animal domestication and weaving (Farid , 1985, p.82). This highland region is the Kemites "Mountain of the Moons " region, the area from which the civilization and goods of Kem, originated.
The rock art of the Saharan Highlands support the Egyptian traditions that in ancient times they lived in the Mountains of the Moon. The Predynastic Egyptian mobiliar art and the Saharan rock art share many common themes including, characteristic boats (Farid 1985,p. 82), men with feathers on their head (Petrie ,1921,pl. xvlll,fig.74; Raphael, 1947, pl.xxiv, fig.10; Vandier , 1952, p.285, fig. 192), false tail hanging from the waist (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Farid, 1985,p.83; Winkler 1938,I, pl.xxlll) and the phallic sheath (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Winkler , 1938,I , pl.xvlll,xx, xxlll).
Due to the appearance of aridity in the Mountains of the Moon the Proto-Saharans migrated first into Nubia and thence into Kem. The Proto-Saharan origin of the Kemites explain the fact that the Kushites were known for maintaining the most ancient traditions of the Kemites as proven when the XXVth Dynasty or Kushite Dynasty ruled ancient Egypt. Farid (1985, p.85) wrote that "To conclude, it seems that among Predynastic foreign relations, the [Proto-]Saharians were the first to have significant contact with the Nile Valley, and even formed a part of the Predynastic population" (emphasis author).
This means that the Nomes probably represent different "states" incorporated into ancient Egypt. It is quite possible that each nome represented a different ethnic group.
If this is true the Egyptian language was probably a lingua franca used to provide a means of communication for the diverse people who lived in ancient Egypt. This would explain why Egyptian was used to write Kushite text until Egyptians migrated into Meroitic lands once Egypt was under the control of the Romans.
Alain Anselin La Question Peule, makes it clear that the Fula originated in Egypt. He supports this theory with the obvious similarity between the words for cattle and milk shared by the Egyptians, Fula and Dravidians (Tamil). He believes that by the 12 Dynasty of Egypt Fula were settled in Egypt.
The Egyptians had many gods. They had these gods because as new ethnicities formed nomes in Egypt they brought their gods with them.
A good example of this amalgamation of various African ethnicities into Egypt is the followers of the god Ra. Some of the first rulers of Egypt saw Ra as the main god.
Later the Egyptians worshipped Aman/Amun which was a Saharan god. ). By the 2nd millennium BC Kushites at kerma were already worshippers of Amon/Amun and they used a distinctive black-and-red ware (Bonnet 1986; Winters 1985b,1991). Amon, later became a major god of the Egyptians during the 18th Dynasty.
A majority of Fula may have remained nomadic, but settled Fula probaly form a major ethnic group in an Egyptian Nome, as did Wolof and Mande speaking people. This is the best way to explain the close genetic linguistic relationship between these groups.
Granted, some Wolof, Mande and Fula made their way to West Africa, but many speakers of these languages remained in Egypt and made up one of the various nomes associated with Egypt.
DNA can tells us little about this period unless they recover DNA from the people living at that time. DNA from living individuals only tell us abou the contemporary group. Not the original people.
Egypt was a cosmopolitan area inhabited by diverse people who move up the Nile from the south to found the First Dynasty. Since the people of Dynastic Egypt originated in the Sahara and moved from south to north . The archaeological evidence makes it clear that no one originated in Egypt.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Wait a minute. My position is that the first cultural-Archaeological evidence for Fulani traits appear in Late Stone Age Sahara at Tassili n'Ajjer in southeast Algeria.
You've favored a 12th dynasty Egyptian origin for Fulani based on I don't know what.
One people can't originate in two different places at two different times. So which is it? Is it the Sahara, and precisely when and where in the Sahara, or is it Dynastic Egypt? Please choose one or the other.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: This statement is what I have been claiming all along that these people came from the Sahara.
The Fula are spread over a widearea. I maintain they originated in the highland regions of the Sahara I call the Fertile African Crescent since the highlands form a Crescent shape in Middle Africa. The first evidence of the Fula suggest that they were living in Tassili.
As I said before, no one originated in Egypt everyone in Egypt came from somewhere else as is evident from the archaeology.
I said that the Fula were in Egypt at least by the 12th Dynasty and that those Fulani speakers left Egypt during the Roman period and settled parts of West Africa.
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posted
Then we agree the Egyptian Origin of the Fulani is false. Sorry I didn't distinguish origin and residence in your stance.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: I maintain they originated in the highland regions of the Sahara ... The first evidence of the Fula suggest that they were living in Tassili.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Then we agree the Egyptian Origin of the Fulani is false. Sorry I didn't distinguish origin and residence in your stance.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: I maintain they originated in the highland regions of the Sahara ... The first evidence of the Fula suggest that they were living in Tassili.
I agree that the Fulani originated in the Sahara. But as supported by Fula oral traditions discussed by Lam, there is a considerable section of Fula, who presently live in West Africa, who claim they came from Egypt before settling in West Africa.
Since these Fula claim descent from Egyptian nationals that left Egypt during the Roman period ,and recognize this as their most recent homeland I guess this group would see Egypt as the place where they originated. This view is supported by the fact that the Fula is related to Egyptian spoken during 12th Dynasty, and we do have a major migration of Egyptians out of Egypt during the Roman period.
And in a way they are correct if they are not looking at the origin of their grand-ancestors in the Fertile African Crescent (Highlands of the Sahara).
Moreover, we must respect the history people have recorded for themselves.
They originate in *western* Africa, the place you hate.
quote: But as supported by Fula oral traditions discussed by Lam, there is a considerable section of Fula, who presently live in West Africa, who claim they came from Egypt before settling in West Africa.
Since these Fula claim descent from Egyptian nationals that left Egypt during the Roman period ,and recognize this as their most recent homeland I guess this group would see Egypt as the place where they originated. This view is supported by the fact that the Fula is related to Egyptian spoken during 12th Dynasty, and we do have a major migration of Egyptians out of Egypt during the Roman period.
This is all just a figment of your wild imagination; nothing more.
Ps: You are delusional if you think that facts are up for "compromise", which is what this ambiguous acceptance of a "Saharan" origin, while also professing an Egyptian one, is all about. Which sucker were you hoping to get on the boat with that one?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Come on here and make your 'discredited" self useful for a moment: Can I get an *elaborate* grammatical and syntax correspondence between Fula and Ancient Egyptian?
BTW Clyde, I'd like to congratulate you for swiftly delivering your thoughtful and intelligent answer to this request...which, oh yeah, doesn't EXIST!
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: ... .. .. .. ...
It is apparent that this forum is above your head. If you wish to whine childishly or to present non- factual information, please post on Ancient Egypt.
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Once again, there is NO EVIDENCE that the rock paintings in Tassili pre-dates those found in other areas of the Nile Valley and conitinuing to the Red Sea. These have been dated to at least 5000 BC by using the time of extinction of a certain herd of wild cattle, which were found also in the cave paintings as far east as Somalia . There is also nothing that distinctly says the rock paintings in Tassili are that of Fulani, only that a certain ceremony and milk containors are prevelent, but of which is also found among other semi-nomadic, pastorolists such as Masaai and those in preset day Sudan. For instance, the Fulani "calf-rope" is not seen in the Tassili paintings.
On this subject, doubt can be cast on everything, so it seems prudent to go with the linguistic and cultural evidence Fulani and Wolof scholars have brought out, especially one who claimed this back in the late 1800s.
Wally, completely ignore "Explorer" since I've come to the conclusion that this is the racist idiot "Yazid" I've seen on older threads. Exact same racist, hatred of AA themes. Even the same "heritageless" ignorance.
Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009
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It is apparent that this forum is above your head. If you wish to whine childishly or to present non- factual information, please post on Ancient Egypt.
...'cause, quite simply it doesn't remotely address the matter/evidence being requested. Now, buzz off, get lost, or whatever...
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by some heritageless spook:
Wally, completely ignore "Explorer" since I've come to the conclusion that this is the racist idiot "Yazid" I've seen on older threads. Exact same racist, hatred of AA themes. Even the same "heritageless" ignorance.
...and you are that racist turd-head called "TheAmericanHammer"; see, two can play the childish games you come up with in that puny dense cranium of your's. Get off your fat lazy ass, buy yourself some heritage, and stop distorting others', okay!
And oh, might want to preach what you teach, Lol, advising others to do what you yourself isn't capable of doing.
Now, for the little "lost" evidential matter, that the two buffoons above tried to distract from:
Clyde,
Come on here and make your 'discredited" self useful for a moment: Can I get an *elaborate* grammatical and syntax correspondence between Fula and Ancient Egyptian?
..the clock is ticking!
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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There are no Nile Valley rock paintings of Fulani cultural traits.
The rock paintings showing cultural traits like the Fulani are where?
Tassili n'Ajjer, a good 1500 miles west of the Nile Valley.
quote:Originally posted by The Gaul: Once again, there is NO EVIDENCE that the rock paintings in Tassili pre-dates those found in other areas of the Nile Valley and conitinuing to the Red Sea.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Horse manure! You really need to educate yourself on both the Tassili n'Ajjer rock art in general and then those pieces Ba associated with current Bororo Fulani cultural traits before you further discredit yourself.
quote: Among the paintings of the Tassili, Amadou Hampaté-Ba recognized many of the Fula rituals, including the Kumen initiation into the mysteries of pastoralism (silatigi). One of the scenes at Ti-n-Tazarift depicts the lotori, or annual lustering of cattle. There, painted on the side of a scene of people bathing cattle and passing them through a U-shaped brush gate, is a large abstract design representing the kurgal kaggu -— a ritual veil, an important symbol to the Fula herders, the Kaggu (LeQuellec 1992:60-6). Shaped like a hand, it invokes the ancestral Kikala, with the four fingers, each painted in one of the colors of the cattle (yellow, red, black, white), representing the tribal clans (Dyal, Ba, So,and Bari). The thumb represents their vassals (Dieterlen 1965, at 325).
This is one of the prime Saharan painting's Ba used.
The "calf rope" used to divide a pastoral Fulani encampment is very noticeable. Evidence like this shows that Fulani have local antecedence that far outweighs any distant infusions or accretions.
posted
To elucidate my point about doubt being cast, from the book "African Herders" (pgs. 136 - 137) by Andrew Brown Smith:
quote:While their recent history is relatively clearly understood, their more distant past is not clear, and there is no archaeology to elucidate their existence. Intriguing suggestions of a Saharan past have been raised regarding percieved similarities between depictions in the rock art of the Tassili n'Ajjer and Fulani ceremonies. Figure 4.21 from Uan Derbaouan has been suggested as representing the Fulani latoori cleansing ritual (Hampate Ba and Dieterlen (1966:150). Another example from this period, also from the Tassili n'Ajjer, shows heads of cattle around a sun motif (fig. 5.2) that Hampate Ba and Dieterlen (1966:149) interpret as one of the seven suns where initiates receive training from the god, Koumen, during " claireres ," or stages of initiation, on their path to ritual elder status.
Such interpretations are not without their critics. There is nothing within Fulani origin myths to support these contentions. On the one hand, Le Quellec (2002) maintains that there are none of the recognized Fulani symbols, such as the important Fulani calf rope symbol , while on the other hand, there is a long time between execution of the painting, perhaps some 5,000 years ago, and the present (Vansina 1984). To Le Quellec (2002:149), the ceremonial attributions are too exact, and some of the arguments for equating the paintings with the Fulani need not be specific to just the Fulani but rest on a "level of generalities common to all pastoral cultures."
However, there are too many other such coincidences in the paintings with modern pastoral Fulani society, such as the layout of the camp from Tissoukai (Lhote 1976), where male and female domains are clearly seperated by the calf rope, and the kaakul display of containers (Kuper 1978: 426: fig. 11), not to at least consider the possibility that we are dealing with similar cultural patterns. It is possible that the Tassili paintings depict a formative West African pastoral society whose best fit today may be the Fulani, but the detail that Hampate Ba and Dieterlen claimed to see in the paintings is perhaps what they wanted to see to support their thesis. Time depth, however, should not be used as an argument against the survival of deep meaning in any society. We know that the history of the Judeo-Christian Bible goes back several thousand years, and only part of this history was maintianed in written form.
And from "The Cambridge History of Africa" (p. 575), we have similarities amongst modern cattler herders at Tibesti, Tassili, and the Nile Valley:
quote:The heads are always very carefully drawn; they are shown longer than in real life and are treated with an artistic sense that occasionally seems artificial, particularly with regard to the treatment of the horns. Sometimes these last are curiously deformed both in the engravings and in the paintings; in the Tibesti massif alone a hundred such cases of deformity have been noted, while they are much rarer in Ennedi and Tassili n'Ajjer and exceptional in the Ahaggar (Huard 1959). Now this cultural trait is limited neither to the Sahara nor to the Neolithic period. Indeed, it seems to have originated among the people of Nubia where it continued througout the Egyptian period; thus from tribute from the Nubians is often shown as consisting of fattened cattle with horns variously deformed and carved. In our own day among the Nuer and Dinka of the Nile and even among the Souk and Nandi of Lake Victoria, such age old practices still have not died out.
The seperation of male and female compounds is consistent with ALL pastoral societies. One way or another, we simply can see similarities with a few distinctions present in all of the regions from Tassili, to the Nile Valley, and further east to the Red (Black) Sea, with the practices becoming more exact in different regions with time.
Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
After pages of grandstanding look who's now taking the foreign whiteman's word over that of a native Fulani!
You see Ba was born and raised Fulani and as part of the nobility recieved the best Fulani education and traveled in the inteligentsia's circles, whereas Smith on the otherhand has only book knowledge. A good example being the calf-rope.
The calf-rope is not a symbol it's a physical rope.
Though not without sour grapes, in the end Smith has to admit:
quote:Originally posted by The Gaul: ... I have full belief of what West African and Fulnai scholars have to say, ... . . . . a FULANI scholar ... knows the people of his area and does his work truly as a scholar, not to be undermined by a non-African foreigner who would think they know these people better ...
Hmmm, I guess not, if that non-African foreigner is named Smith and the Fulani scholar is the reknowned West African Fulani Amadou Hampâté Bâ (Gd rest him). Read his chapter 8 'The Living Tradition' starting at pg62 in UNESCO's General History of Africa vol 1Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: ... .. .. .. ...
It is apparent that this forum is above your head. If you wish to whine childishly or to present non- factual information, please post on Ancient Egypt.
The irony is the dumbass can't even handle ancient Egypt either as he does the same sh!t over there too. Ain't that right Lucy Dawidowitz?! LOL
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote:alTakruri wrote to Clyde Winters: ...You've favored a 12th dynasty Egyptian origin for Fulani based on I don't know what. One people can't originate in two different places at two different times. So which is it? Is it the Sahara, and precisely when and where in the Sahara, or is it Dynastic Egypt? Please choose one or the other.
"Naw, Mahn, you no git way wid dat semantic treek" (a little African creole...)
Origin -birth, descent, extraction, family tree, genealogy, line, lineage, parentage...
- People certainly can and do originate in two, and usually in many places:
a) my birth origin is Louisiana
b) my descent is African
c) my lineage is from many places in Africa, a smidgen of European, and perhaps a dash of Native American...
--as Dr. Winters has so accurately pointed out, even the Ancient Egyptians did not originate in Egypt; yet they are from Egypt - you certainly understand this process, and for you to maintain that the Fulani, who have originated in more places in Africa than perhaps any other African ethnic group, did not spend some time 'originating' in Ancient Egypt, boggles the mind. The Fulani of the Sudan are from Sudan, that is thus, their place of origin. The Original Place of Origin of everybody on the planet is the Great Lakes Regions of East Africa. Obviously, we're not talking about this Original Place of Origin...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote: or·i·gin (ôr-jn, r-) n. 1. The point at which something comes into existence or from which it derives or is derived. 2. Ancestry: "We cannot escape our origins, however hard we try" (James Baldwin). 3. The fact of originating; rise or derivation: The rumor had its origin in an impulsive remark.
Synonyms: origin, inception, source, root
Well then, boggle the mind I'll do. The Fulani did not originate in 12 dyn AE. The topic is Fulani not the word origin. For anything not mestice, there is only one point of origin.
The first set of Fulani cultural traits were from SE Algeria You have not shown Fulani cultural traits older than that or from elsewhere.
The self-named Fulbe ethny was first known in Mauritania/Senegal c. 1kya.
No one can show a people named Fulani older than that from elsewhere.
All rhetoric aside * Fulani as Fulani are a West African originating people * Fulani-like traits are first noted in West Africa * Fulani do not appear in Egypt until well after Islam.
But please produce records from 12th dynasty Egypt of a wholescale migration westward of people bearing Fulani cultural traits. This is the only thing that will prove Fulani were in 12th dynasty Egypt. You know, of course, they could not have originated in 12th dynasty Egypt when the first record of anything like Fulani debuts 1800 miles away and roughly 3000 years earlier.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
alTakruri, you actually wrote : "Origin, The point at which something comes into existence or from which it derives or is derived." Which is exactly what I wrote! Origin -birth, descent, extraction, family tree, genealogy, line, lineage, parentage... "The point at which something comes into existence" - like birth "or from which it derives or is derived." - like genealogy, line, lineage, parentage,
"The Topic", you wrote, "is Fulani not the word origin." That maybe your topic, but my Topic, the Topic of this thread is "The Egyptian Origin of the Fulani."
You also said that "The first set of Fulani cultural traits were from SE Algeria" only to soon thereafter contradict yourself "Fulani as Fulani are a West African originating people" which means that you either believe that SE Algeria is in West Africa or that the Fulani did not leave any cultural traits in their West African land of origin.
Then you repeat the impossible request to "produce records from 12th dynasty Egypt of a wholescale migration westward of people bearing Fulani cultural traits." When you know that these records only exist in the evidence that we have presented to you, actual written records of migrations from ancient Egypt can be reduced to the biblical myths of Moses leading the Hebrews out, and the historical evidence of the defections of Egyptians over to the Kushites; you know this. In fact, though more abundant with the Fulani, the records of the Colchians migration from Egypt were not written, or if so not discovered or revealed. We know that the Zulu, the Xhosa, the Mandebele peoples did not originate in South Africa, as a matter of fact, they arrived in southern Africa just alittle bit before the Dutch and the British - The Germans did not originate in Germany but from the regions of the Huns, the Swedes, Norwegian, and places south - the Filipinos did not originate in the Philippines but from islands far to the west, even west of Malaysia...The Fulani, like their friends nearby, the Wolof, might have lived in the west African regions for quite sometime, but it certainly wasn't their original homeland, anymore than Japan was for the Japanese who came and displaced the European looking Ainu folks. It's the way of the world. The Fulani are definitely a part of this world...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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Wally you are very bright so why do you continue this disingenuous argument?
Here is a classic example of a strawman.......
You also said that "The first set of Fulani cultural traits were from SE Algeria" only to soon thereafter contradict yourself "Fulani as Fulani are a West African originating people" which means that you either believe that SE Algeria is in West Africa or that the Fulani did not leave any cultural traits in their West African land of origin.
If we are suckers we can debate whether SE Algeria is West Africa.
But if we are not - we want to know how you can claim Fulani originate in Dynastic Egypt if you acknolwedge they originate in the Neolithic Algerian Sahara?
These are mutually exclusive claims kept 'alive' [well not really, but you keep arguing them] by sophistry and 'bad' dancing.
Of course I challenged you for months earlier while you ran from this request to clarify your false claims, so it's funny to see you back it again.....but perhaps not surprising.
When the cat's away......
re:
You repeat the impossible request to "produce records from 12th dynasty Egypt of a wholescale migration westward of people bearing Fulani cultural traits."
^ And why is this impossible?
When you know that these records only exist in the evidence that we have presented to you,
^ This is a tautology. If I ask you for physical evidence of UFO's - would you respond by sayin the request is 'impossible', because I know the evidence only exists in 'doubtful claims' and 'bogus photographs'?
This is essentially and admission that you have no hard evidence.
We know that the Zulu, the Xhosa, the Mandebele peoples did not originate in South Africa, as a matter of fact .....
^ Non sequitur, does not prove that Fulani originated in Egypt.
One of the reasons I got bored with Egyptsearch is that 'arguments' seldom rise above regurgitation of elementary logical fallacy.
This is very disappointing.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote: or·i·gin (ôr-jn, r-) n. 1. The point at which something comes into existence or from which it derives or is derived. 2. Ancestry: "We cannot escape our origins, however hard we try" (James Baldwin). 3. The fact of originating; rise or derivation: The rumor had its origin in an impulsive remark.
Synonyms: origin, inception, source, root
Well then, boggle the mind I'll do. The Fulani did not originate in 12 dyn AE. The topic is Fulani not the word origin. For anything not mestice, there is only one point of origin.
The first set of Fulani cultural traits were from SE Algeria You have not shown Fulani cultural traits older than that or from elsewhere.
The self-named Fulbe ethny was first known in Mauritania/Senegal c. 1kya.
No one can show a people named Fulani older than that from elsewhere.
All rhetoric aside * Fulani as Fulani are a West African originating people * Fulani-like traits are first noted in West Africa * Fulani do not appear in Egypt until well after Islam.
But please produce records from 12th dynasty Egypt of a wholescale migration westward of people bearing Fulani cultural traits. This is the only thing that will prove Fulani were in 12th dynasty Egypt. You know, of course, they could not have originated in 12th dynasty Egypt when the first record of anything like Fulani debuts 1800 miles away and roughly 3000 years earlier.
No one has said anything about a migration out of Egypt during the 12th Dynasty. Homburger uses linguistic data to indicate that the Egyptian language spoken during this period agrees with the Fulani language.
I do hope you ken the difference between Fulani-like traits and thefull blown ethnic group the Fulani people.
Those with the traits are the origin of the ethny.
Glad to see you finally admit the impossibilty to locate AEL primary documents of the Fulani ethny. I rest my case.
And yes the folk of the West African sahel, savannah, and northern woodlands for the most part immediately trace to the Green Sahara, ipso facto.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Dr. Winters, As you no doubt have witnessed in this thread is that we are up against a dogma, not the same dogma as put out by the looneys who post here, this is dogma with intelligence, but dogma none the less. The Dogma is this: Africans might have migrated from any other place in Africa or have originated any where else in Africa except Ancient Egypt or the Nile Valley! I am surprised that my buddy Djehuti, who buys this same dogma has not chimed in; We; me, - The Gaul, You, and others here have presented documents to support our case; linguistic evidence, cultural evidence, Griot historical evidence, the works of scholars, only to be called 'disingeneous' - a euphemism for 'a lier' despite:
a) The names of several African ethnic groups are identical to Ancient Egyptian gods, or have a ring of Nobility or status within Ancient Egypt - The Akan, The Fanti, The BaTutsi, The Yoruba, the Hausa...
b) We also have shown that a Wolof could understand an Ancient Egyptian speaker in the same manner that a Portuguese can understand an Italian speaker, perhaps to an even greater degree...
c) We have shown a close relationship between Fulani, Wolof, and Yoruba, and the Mdu Ntr, which is genetic...
d) BaTutsi Griot legends tells us of their origins in the North, Fulani tell us directly of their sojourn in Ancient Egypt - alTakruri wants to see their emigration papers - The late Yoruba musician Fela was so taken with the knowledge of his ancestors emigration from the Nile Valley, he named his band Egypt87!
e) It blew my mind when a Yoruba friend, when I asked him an obscure Mdu Ntr word "Noo" ; to erase, wipe - how do you say erase, wipe in Yoruba, and after some thought replied to me "Noo..."
f) The capital of Zimbabwe, named after that great African civilization is "Harare" - "Harare" means "flower" in the Mdu Ntr, a good name, like Addis Ababa (New Flower), for a city...
G) THE MANGBETU ARE A PEOPLE OF THE DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF THE CONGO, WHOSE HEAD SHAPES ARE IDENTICAL TO THOSE OF THE AMARNA ROYALTY OF THE EIGHTEENTH DYNASTY - MANGBETU IS A MEMBER OF "THE NILO-SAHARAN" LANGUAGE GROUP. WELL COMPARE THIS TO MENGABU, A GOD IN MDU NTR...
H) MUNTU, OR "HUMAN/MEN" IN BANTU, IS A CENTER POINT IN BANTU PHILOSOPHY AND WISDOM; HE WAS AN EGYPTIAN GOD, SUCCEEDED BY AMON, AND WAS THE WHITE BULL GOD WITH A BLACK FACE - ALSO AN EXELLENT BOOK: MUNTU: AFRICAN CULTURE AND THE WESTERN WORLD BY JANHEINZ JAHN AND MARJORIE GRENE
...IT IS ONE THING TO BE INITIALLY SURPRISED, GIVEN THE CIRCUMSTANCES' TO DISCOVER THAT THE ANCIENT EGYPTIANS WERE BLACKS, YOU WANTED TO TELL THE WORLD, BUT SUCH A DISCOVERY LEAD TO FURTHER DISCOVERY: THAT AT ONE POINT IN TIME AFRICANS FORMED A CLUSTER IN THE NILE VALLEY AND THAT KEMET WAS INDEED - A PAN-AFRICAN CIVILIZATION, AND AS WE CONTINUE OUR SEARCH, WE CONTINUE FINDING FURTHER EVIDENCE TO SUBSTANTIATE THIS REALITY...A FAR, FAR CRY FROM THE DOGMA...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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I was scanning quickly through books on African American slaves and saw that one of our ancestors claimed Ancient Egyptian origin.
He was a Foulah namd Ben Ali and he wrote/said that the Foulah were descended from the Hyksos/Shepard Kings. Fullah was spoken a lot in the Gullah regions and there were two Ben Alis.
Ben Ali Muhammad wrote the longest Slave Narrative of any slave.
In 1803, Bilali (Ben Ali) Muhammad and his family arrived in Georgia on Sapelo Island. Bilali Muhammad was a Fula from Timbo Futa-Jallon in present day Guinea-Conakry...... All his daughters but Bint could speak English, French, Fula, Gullah, and Arabic. Bilali was well educated in Islamic law. While enslaved Bilali became the community leader and Imam of at least 80 men. During the War of 1812 Bilali told his slave master that he had 80 men of the true faith to help defend the land against the British.
Bilali was known for regularly wearing his fez, a long coat, praying five times a day facing the east, fasting during the month of Ramadan, and celebrating the two holidays when they came. Bilali was buried with his Qur’an and prayer rug. In 1829 Bilali wrote a 13 page hand written Arabic text book called a "Risala"about some of the laws of Islam and Islamic living. The book is known as Ben Alis"Diary, housed today at the University of Georgia in Athens.
Bilali "Ben Ali" was the leader of one of America’s earliest known Muslim communities. It’s documented that in 1812 there were at least eighty Muslims living on a plantation controlled by Ben Ali from 1806 to the late 1830s.
In 1803, Salih Bilali (Old Tom) came from a powerful family of Massina in the Temourah district in West Africa. He was captured around 1782, sold in the Bahamas at first and then in the US around 1803. He lived from 1770-1846. He was sold to John Couper in the Bahamas and brought to St. Simon Island, Ga. From 1816-1840 Salih Bilali was the trusted head slave manager of more than 450 slaves of John and Hamilton Couper. It was reported by his master’s son, that while Salih was on his death bed that his last words were "Allah is God and Mohammed his Prophet."
One of Salih’s descendants was Robert Abbott, founder of the "Chicago Defender, "one of the nation’s first black newspapers. Another one of Salih’s descendants was named after him Bilali Sullivan who was known as (Ben Sullivan). Bilali (Ben) Sullivan purchased some of the original property from the plantation in 1914. He was interviewed about his life in the 1930s.
There are two well known Muslim communities of the Gullah Islands of St. Simon and Sapelo off the coast of Georgia. Bilali (Ben Ali) Mahomet and Salih Bilali ruled as plantation mangers and Muslim leaders. In America’s history there were Gullah Wars. Some of them are known as the Seminole Indians wars. The African-American language Gullah was initially developed by the enslaved African Muslims and non-Muslims in Senegal to help communicate among the various African tribes.
Wm. E. Welmers identified the Niger Congo home land. Welmers in "Niger-Congo Mande", Current trends in Linguistics 7 (1971), pp.113-140,explained that the Niger-Congo homeland was in the vicinity of the upper Nile valley (p.119). He believes that the Westward migration began 5000 years ago.
In support of this theory he discusses the dogs of the Niger-Congo speakers. This is the unique barkless Basenji dogs which live in the Sudan and Uganda today, but were formerly recorded on Egyptian monuments (Wlemers,p.119). According to Welmers the Basanji, is related to the Liberian Basenji breed of the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia. Welmers believes that the Mande took these dogs with them on their migration westward. The Kpelle and Loma speak Mande languages.
He believes that the region was unoccupied when the Mande migrated westward. In support of this theory Welmers' notes that the Liberian Banji dogs ,show no cross-breeding with dogs kept by other African groups in West Africa, and point to the early introduction of this cannine population after the separation of the Mande from the other Niger-Congo speakers in the original upper Nile homeland for this population. As a result, he claims that the Mande migration occured before these groups entered the region.
Homburger made it clear that the Fula language was related to the Egyptians of the 12th Dynasty. This is interesting because we find that at this time new rulers came to power in Egypt from the South. This period is often called the Middle Kingdom.
Many of these “southerners” probably included many people who later settled West Africa. As noted earlier the marker for the spread of the Niger-Congo speakers is the basanji dog. The hieroglyphic for "dog," in fact, as evidenced on a stele from the Middle Kingdom of Egypt, derives from the basenji. In just a few strokes, the engraver captures the key characteristics: pricked ears, curled tail and graceful carriage. It is probably no coincidence that the Basanji was see as the principal dog it probably represents the coming of power of the Niger-Congo speakers in ancient Egypt.
We know that in African societies great ancestors are made into “gods”. This is interesting because Wally has discovered a number of African ethnonyms among the gods of Egyptian nomes.
quote:Originally posted by Wally: Ethnic names in the Mdu Ntr
Tutsi Tutsi "the assembled gods"; "all of them (gods)"
Akan Akan - the name of a god Akaniu - a class of gods like Osiris
Fante Fante - "he of the nose" - a name of Thoth - one of the 42 judges in the Hall of Osiris ("Shante" in modern Egyptian)
Hausa Hosa - a singing god
Yoruba Ourbaiu - great of souls, a title of gods or kings Ouruba - Great God of soul
The permutations of names of such folks as the Wolof or the Fulani are so many, that it requires the effort of those who speak the language, to properly interpret the names -ie, Djoloff, Oulof, etc. and then look for their meanings in Budge's dictionary...
It would be quite interesting if these nomes were formerly prominent southern nomes who gained prominence once the Inyotefs came to power.
Between 2258 2052 BC civil war broke out among the nobles of Egypt. During this period of disunity there was much suffering in the land and many of the fine cultural developments of the Old Kingdoms were discarded or rarely practiced. This period of chaos is called the "First Intermediate Period". A person who lived during this hard time named Iperwer, wrote Great and humble say: "I wish I might die". Little children cry out: "I never should have been born". Also during this time Lower Egypt was invaded by Asian people who ruled there for a long time.
Inyotef I
During this period of decline it was the Southerners who made it possible for the raise of Egypt back into a world power. These Southerners were called "Inyotefs", they lived around a city in Upper Egypt called "Thebes". Inyotef I founded the 11th Dynasty and made Thebes his capital.Inyotef declared himself king c 2125-2112 BC.
Inyotef I opposed Ankhtify of Heracleopolitan who he defeated. It was Inyotef who consolidated power in the south. Inyotef II (Wahankh) also fought the Heracleopolitans. He loved dogs especially the basenji.
Egyptian Basenji Egyptian Basenji Dog Hieroglyph
I believe that some of the southern nomes led by the Inyotefs were composed of people who later migrated to West Africa after the Romans came to power. The Thebians were closely united with the Nubians.
Inyotef I was the father Mentuhotep I. Several of the wives of Mentuhotep II were Nubians. Under Mentuhotep, the delta chiefs were defeated and Egypt was united again into one country.
Mentuhotep Under the Amenemhet I, of the Xllth dynasty the capital was moved form Thebes to Lisht near Memphis. This dynasty and those thereafter are called the Middle Kingdom.
Amenemhet
MIDDLE KINGDOM
It took strong leadership for the Egyptians to re establish the greatness of Egypt and the establishment of safe and secure borders.
The rulers during the Middle Kingdom were mostly men from the military. They frequently made raids into foreign lands in search of booty. And for the first time in Egyptian history a permanent army was founded to protect Egypt and keep it strong.
Amon became the major God of the Egyptians during the Middle Period. Amon was recognized at this time as the God of all Gods. This Amon was also called Amma by the Proto Saharans.
It is interesting to note that the Mande and other West African people like the Dogon and Dravidians worshipped the god Amma.
The fact that Mande, Wolof and Fula are related to Egyptian is probably due to the fact that when the Inyotefs took over Egypt the ancestors of these groups live in southern Egypt/Upper Kush. This would explain 1) the relationship between the Fula and Egyptian language of the 12th Dynasty 2) the introduction of the worship of Aman to the Egyptians a god worshipped by many Niger-Congo speakers, 3) the presence of Egyptian gods for selected nomes bearing West African ethnonyms and 4)the love of the basenji dog by the 12th Dynasty Egyptians.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Now what was it The Frenchman said?
quote:Originally posted by The Gaul: ... I have full belief of what West African and Fulnai scholars have to say, ... . . . . a FULANI scholar ... knows the people of his area and does his work truly as a scholar, not to be undermined by a non-African foreigner who would think they know these people better ...
Hmmm, I guess not, if that non-African foreigner is named Smith and the Fulani scholar is the reknowned West African Fulani Amadou Hampâté Bâ (Gd rest him). Read his chapter 8 'The Living Tradition' starting at pg62 in UNESCO's General History of Africa vol 1
Oh Al, how quickly we jump fences don't we? Of all the Fulani and Wolof scholars and historians that have been repeated (Diop, Lam, Dyao, Yaya), of which you completely seem to ignore, you wait until I bring doubt on Fulani as a culture in SE ALgeria rather than just proto pastoral Africans, THEN you decide to jump on the balls of Ba? What took you so long? Just as you have cast doubt on the multitude of West African scholars work presented ad nauseum, I brought out the same that goes against your own agenda, then you decide to hop on the West African scholar train, which doesn't necessarily support a non-Nile Valley origin, since Ba makes no claims on that subject. I beginning to be able to read you like a book fence jumper...I knew this reponse was coming from you (or the fake explorer).
Back on the topic of Fulani origins, we have this from the late, great, much appreciated and never forgotten scholar Ivan Van Sertima's book "The Golden Age of the Moor", which I do believe has been passively brought up on this board before, but not in this context:
Pg. 120, sub-chapter: "The Fulani as Gaitules"
quote:Probably the best living example in North Africa of those originally nomadic peoples called Libyans are the modern "red" or pastoral Fulani (as opposed to settled Fulani) especially belonging to the area of Niger and Mali. Though they themselves are probably descendents of only one of the waves of Libyans from the east, they represent the black Berber or "hamitic" prototype which has existed in the Sahara for at least 5,000 years. At Jabbaren, the rock art shows cattle transporting the armature of huts which is a practice maintained by the Fulani and the head gear, clothing, and most typical physical characteristics of the human figures of the pastoral period are said to resemble the present day Fulani. They have, except their language, many habits of dress and accoutrements in common with Somali and Rendili and at times a strong familial resemblance to Cushitic peoples in general.
To which I already mentioned how Somali and other horners I have heard speak about exactly what Sertima mentioned in the last sentence. Continuing...
quote:These nomads are one of the few tribes whose attire still resembles the long garments worn by the Lybians on ancient Egyptian tomb paintings after the New Empire. On these garments are the same designs that appear on C-group pottery and in Lybian tattoos. They also wear the same hats and peculiar Lybian side-lock and other coiffures shown in representations of ancient Lybians. They still practice the burning of the temples of infants which Herodotus mentions as being common to all Lybians. They often have a hairstyle in which they leave their hair long in the back like the ancient Lybians called Machlyes. Their women wear hair in a crest like the Cushitic speakers and the other Berbers of the southern Sahara which was said to be typical of Lybian women. This form of hairdress is shown often in ancient rock art now in the Sahara (It was apparently a very ancient practice and of totemic or religious significance: It is found among dark-skinned Yemeni women as well).
The pastoral Fulani are the only people in West Africa who milk their cattle and though they have been touched by modernization, rarely did they raise cattle for food. (The ancient Lybians did not eat the cow, considering them sacred). Like many traditional Cushitic and Nilo-Saharan peoples they tend to know each of the members of their herds by name and treat them with great affection and respect.
The Fulanis of Takrur were called Beni Warith or Waritan of the Beni Goddala or Jeddala in the Annales Regnum Mauritanie (Annals of the Mauritian Kings) and the annals of El Bekri. They were said to have once lived in the Mauritian Adrar. Goddala is the Arab pronunciation of the earlier Gaituli of the Roman historians. The Gaitules were the most populous of the Lybian tribes of Strabos time (1st Century AD) Josephus around the same time period claimed that they were the same as the Evalioi of Kush or the peoples of ancient Avalis (Hevila) - the Zeila of present day Somalia, which might explain why Fulani today resemble so much the people of that region.
The Goddala were considered one of the major Berber tribes by Arab writers and the brethren of the Anbiya (Anbat) and Sanhaja or Berbers of the Maghrib. Futhermore, when the Fulani were first encountered by European colonists, they spoke more than one language. One of these is connected to other West African languages. The other one, however, was considered different enough for the explorers to speculate that it was more related to dialects outside Africa.
Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
Continuing on, pg. 121, "C-group as Ancestors of the Eastern Lybians":
quote:There is a strong resemblance, according to a number of scholars, between the anceint prehistoric culture of the Southern Sahara and those of the ancient pastoral cultures in Nubia especially represented by the C-group population. One specialist in African archaeology, David Phillipson, has relatively recently stated that the affinities of C-group pottery strongly suggest a Saharan origin. However Gabriel Camps before this had shown that ancient Saharan industries possessed close affinity with the neolithic industries of the Nilotic area. The rock art of the Tassili region of Algeria and also in Ennedi of Chad and the Tibesti region, a pastoral period between the 4th and 3rd milleniums B.C., depicted cattle with horns deformed and with curious pendants typical of those of the Nubian, especially C-group area and further east. Fine sculptured cattle and other anthropomorphic cult figurines appear at the sites as they do east of the Nile. The men are often represented, according to camps, as men resembling the Fulani, slim with dark complexions and small pointed beards rather like those portrayed on rock art of the Arabian desert spoken by Anati. Ancient stone tumulus graves in the western part of the Southern Saharan are reminiscent of those built by C-group.
The territory of the Tamahou or Tjemehu has been suggested to have corresponded to the general area of the C-group populations who occupied the Lybian desert of Sudan and parts of Nubia. Both A. Arkell and Bates had come to conclude that the C-group Nubians represented a Lybian people. A. Arkell and Bates also felt the people of this culture (C-group) were the Lybians whom the Egyptians called Tjemehu, who are mentioned as early as the 6th dynasty inscription in a land to the south of Egypt. C-group pottery has been found in Gilf Kabir in Lybia and the Wadi Howar to the west of Nubia in the Lybian desert. C-group people were also affiliated with the kingdom of Kerma in Nubia.
And of the term "Tamahou", pgs. 25 & 26:
quote:Reynolds quotes Behrens and Arkell stating that [in the Tamahu] they identify a C-group culture which was "tall, slender, and obviously black..." What makes this so obvious and who is stating this, Behrens and Arkell, Reynolds, or a third party whom Reynolds is quoting? Her statements suggests she is quoting someone else who is quoting these sources and that they have not been thorough in their research. Etymology in this case is unwavering and inflexible and states most assuredly that the Egyptian word Tamahou means "the white people"!!! In regards to Reynolds comments on the Tehenou, it has been acknowledged by Egyptologists and historians alike who have correctly translated the hieroglyphs that this group was of the black race. Diop writing in 1955 states, "The Tehenou or black Lebou was probably the ancestor of the modern Lebou...These Blacks preceded the Temehou or white Lybians in that region of the western Delta. The existence of the first black inhabitant, the Tenehu, made it possible to create confusion over the term "brown Lybian..."
That among the predominant black types, there was also an Euro-Asiatic species of man in Egypt from a very early historical period is fact. That they in later times came to be known as Lybians is also fact. That these Lybians amalgamated with the indigenous blacks of the area which eventually produced what came to be called the "Tawny or white Moor" is also irrefutable. Reynolds cannot afford to misrepresent the historical ledger because she wants to paint the entire population of Africa as black when there is substantial evidence to the contrary.
Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009
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Re-examine the thread. Somebody here did make such claim.
Homburger, on the otherhand, denies Fulfulde as 12th dynasty AEL by the very passage you presented from a seondary source.
It was Alain Anselin. Yet he goes on to make it clear that the Egyptians and Fula were related. He also adds the Dravidians to the mix.
.
Yes I remember earlier when you cited one scholar as evidence of support for the notion that Dravidian originate in Africa based on Dravidian / Fula ties...... when in fact the scholar was claiming the Fulani originated in India.
Is this still the same bait and switch game you are playing?
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Re-examine the thread. Somebody here did make such claim.
Homburger, on the otherhand, denies Fulfulde as 12th dynasty AEL by the very passage you presented from a seondary source.
It was Alain Anselin. Yet he goes on to make it clear that the Egyptians and Fula were related. He also adds the Dravidians to the mix.
.
Yes I remember earlier when you cited one scholar as evidence of support for the notion that Dravidian originate in Africa based on Dravidian / Fula ties...... when in fact the scholar was claiming the Fulani originated in India.
Is this still the same bait and switch game you are playing?
I never heard of this. Who said the Fula came from India? Please direct us to this statement.
posted
Don't be such a grandstanding gay ass. I used Ba in this thread well before my last post. I've used Ba long before you disgraced this forum with your presence.
Just accept the shame of a hypocrite who shifted gears from grandstanding about staunchly relying on West African scholars over others and then used a book learned European to supposedly counter Ba who was the most renowned Fulani traditional and western trained scholarof the 20th century.
And if you're going to separate al~Takruri don't be so ignorant as to use the al instead of the Takruri. Using al is as stupid as using 'the' in The Gaul. And as a Frenchman why are you so interested in making a people you don't belong to, from a continent not of your homeland, into something they are not?
quote:Originally posted by The Gaul: ... you wait until I bring doubt on Fulani as a culture in SE ALgeria rather than just proto pastoral Africans, THEN you decide to jump on the balls of Ba?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
What you are up against is the inability to put up a single AE document mentioning a Fulani ethny. Just imagine, here a people who literally have listed hundreds of ethnies from three continents -- not deity names but flesh and blood ethny names -- somehow left not one record of a Fulani people. Amazing?
No, not amazing. Because the Fulani were not a people known to dynastic Egypt,12 dynasty nor any other.
This is the dogma you spread (and dogma is a forced belief not based on rational thought) The Egyptian Origin of the Fulani. It is dogma because you can't support it with written evidence from a literate society. A society which by the way did not visit much less settle as immigrants outside of their homeland. A literate society that did leave on record how much they disdained the thought of being away from their Beloved Land for any reason.
You know you irk me when you put words in my mouth in order for you to gain mass appeal in lieau of doing the right thing in posting the normal things indicative of a migration of a people. Don't try me. Stick to presenting your points in a manner worthy of discussion between disagreeing colleagues.
quote:Originally posted by Wally: Dr. Winters, As you no doubt have witnessed in this thread is that we are up against a dogma, ...
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
This would not make for Egyptian origins. It would make for Levantine origins. Hyksos derives from AEL heqa x3st, i.e., foreigners who are rulers.
This is a part of the Fulani legend that ascribes Judeo-Syrian ethnicity for the ancestress and two male ancestors of the first halPulaaren/FulFulde.
This is one of a set of Fulani legends no one here would want to hear. It is of a legend that names the starting point of the migration, the causes leading up to the migration, stops along the initial path of the migration, the split of the immigrants and the subsequent secondary paths, the centuries long interaction with the polity the migrants encountered at their first sahel/savannah settlement, the falling out and movement to the migrants' next major settling, the reuniting of the two migrant factors that separated centuries earlier, and the final settlement in Senegal/Mauritania. migratory names and
quote:Originally posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian: I wasn't going to come back either, but these postings are bothering me.
posted
Van Sertima didn't mention anything you fool.
Why don't you know the difference between an editor of a journal (van Sertima) and an author of one of a journal's selections (Reynolds-Marniche)?
quote:Originally posted by The Gaul: ... Ivan Van Sertima's book "The Golden Age of the Moor",
. . .
Pg. 120, sub-chapter: "The Fulani as Gaitules"
quote:... They have, except their language, many habits of dress and accoutrements in common with Somali and Rendili and at times a strong familial resemblance to Cushitic peoples in general.
To which I already mentioned how Somali and other horners I have heard speak about exactly what Sertima mentioned in the last sentence. Continuing...
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Golbéry first made that claim in 1786. Many have repeated it since then. There are even some Bororo Fulani who reguritate it nowadays.
BTW Homburger's final postulation was that AEL derived from Indian language making Indians the root of Africans.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: It was Alain Anselin. Yet he goes on to make it clear that the Egyptians and Fula were related. He also adds the Dravidians to the mix.
.
Yes I remember earlier when you cited one scholar as evidence of support for the notion that Dravidian originate in Africa based on Dravidian / Fula ties...... when in fact the scholar was claiming the Fulani originated in India.
I never heard of this. Who said the Fula came from India? Please direct us to this statement.
.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
It appears that you are right Homburger did believe Africans came from India
The Dravidians in Africa
MIILE HOMBURGER*
[ French original appeared in the journal “La monde non chretian” Oct~ Nov4 1952, Paris]
The people from South India are known as Dravidians. Their Languages are spoken by more than 65 millions. They do not belong to the Indo-European family to which belong Hindi, Marathi and most of the dialects of the Aryans who were living in the Indus and the Ganges valleys i.e. north to the peninsula.
The Dravidian languages are mainly divided into two i.e. literary and non-literary. Literary languages include four great languages. Each language is having its own indigenous written script. Tamil is spoken in the south-east of South India; Malayalam, the closest language to Tamil, is spoken from the west coast; Kannada, is spoken from the North West Coast; Telugu is spoken from the North of Tamil Nadu and to the East of Kannada. Though they have different characteristics, the vocabularies and morphological systems are common. The differences between these Dravidian languages are lesser than the differences between the Indo-European languages.
The non-literary Dravidian languages are spoken in the mountain areas of the North. The script of these languages was introduced by the European missionaries in the 19th century A. D. They are Kui, Kuvi (two dialects of the people known as Konds). Gondi, Malto and Kurukh or Crayon. Finally, Brahui, a language spoken from Baluchistan (of Pakistan) is also identified as a Dravidian language. Its morphological system clearly shows its resemblance with the Dravidian languages.
The Dravidians were navigators and merchants. Their oldest inscriptions date back to the beginning of Christian era. As they
borrowed more aspects from the Aryans, particularly words, philosophical and religious thoughts etc., it was thought during XIX-th century that their entire civilisation came to them from the Indo-Aryans.
Through the excavation made in the Indus valley prior to 1925, archaeologists discovered Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa, the ruined important towns. They found there the dwelling places, palaces and temples. (See: E, Macay, The Indus Civilisation, London, 1935, French translation, Payot publishing house.). Archaeologists regard that the ruin dates back to 2800 B.C and it was even anterior to the Sumerian Civilisation.
Braye studied the language and traditions of Brahui of Baluchistan. He explains that these Brahui speaking people represent a northern section of the citizen of the ancient Dravidian empire of the Indus. In the later days, the Dravidians of the Indus, would have been driven off to South India by the invaders coming from the North. They could have preceded the Aryans.
However one could not easily accept today that the Dravidians might have been savages before the arrival of the people who spoke Indo-European languages.
It is recognized that the Tamils penetrated into the island of Ceylon and the Singhalese have borrowed much from this Dravidian language. Even now some traces confirming this aspect are found in Malay.
Since 1946 onwards, we affirm that certain languages of Africa have some similarities with Dravidian languages. (See: Our comparative study of the Peul language of the scattered shepherd from Bagiorni to Senegal and hereby mentioned Brahui). But our papers have accepted with scepticism in spite of the affirmation of Professor Baumann, a German ethnologist and an expert in African studies ‘who has declared in his work published in 1940 (French translation, Payot, 1940) that all the Neo-Sudanese Civilization had come from the South of Asia especially from India.
Happily, we presented at the 7th International Congress of linguists, conducted in London from 1st to 6th September of 1952, lot of common morphological facts which’ convinced the quasi
totality of the spectators. Only two or three famous Africans have declared that the sceptics would, hereafter, justifly their incredility.
It is not necessary to show the technical demonstration conducted in London, but it will be useful to bring the conclusions which flow from it.
It does not concern with the massive invasion of Africa by the people of Dravidian languages. It is possible to believe that all the black Africans had come from India. Many anthropologists think in this line. But it is yet, a problem to be solved.
The Linguistic facts show that the various groups of foreigners who came through the ports of the West Coast at different dates organised states and imposed their manner of speaking and a part of their vocabularies.
Due to lack of time, all the details could not be brought out for all the languages. Here, we present a few points which are clear.
The unity of the Bantu language group inspite of its dispersion, has made us to admit the existence of a big state which was between the Late Victoria Nyanza and the ports of Mombasa and of Melude from the beginning of the Christian era. The linguistic facts show that this state was organised by the Kannadas. The demonstrative prefixes a, i (e,o,u) followed by different elements used as pronouns are common in Kannada and in Bantu languages.
Example:
Bantu Kannada*
1. ndu = ondu=are they are (Singular neuter)
2. aba = abbaru = they (plural human person)
3. abi,avii, .
(avei) =they
ebi,evi,vi
4. eka = eka = alone*
5. is = is = causative suffix
6. 1k = ik = stative suffix
* Not only in Kannada, all other Dravidian words also are common.
-Editor
· The word ecka is may be from the Sanskrit origin. -Editor
Nubian is known to us by some Christian texts dating from 8th and 9th century onwards through the multiple works done on the different dialects. Now some morphological traits, rather particular of Nubian have been found in Kui language of the Northern Dravidian family.
Example:
Kul Nubian
in ni - genetive
ki, gi dative, accusative
toti ton, doton
-s- -s-
man amen = is, are
Since we know that the Diocletien one of the savage tribes which was then threatening Egypt, who settle in Nubia at the end of the 3rd century. It is probable that the above said invaders were Dravidians and the settled tribe in Nubia was speaking a dialect which was closely related to the modern Kui, a Dravidian tongue.
Nubian had evolved since 8th century A. D. Between the modern dialects of Nile and the modern dialects of India numerous common words are found.
The kingdom of Mali, or Mandingues was certainly organised by the Telugus. Because, in Mande, the Dravidian unique suffix of the plural lu is still in use. It is a Telugu suffix which does not distinguish the plural between persons and non-persons.
The masculine suffix n and feminine ‘l” are the Dravidian suffixes. These two are available in Housa language, an African tongue. Due to want of time we are unable to examine all the Housa morphemes. Besides, the Housa has much circulation and they have borrowed more from Berbers and Arabs.
We finish here this short insight with the above stated facts. We hope that our readers will understand that henceforth our African linguists will have no more to formulate hypothesis and divergences of the common facts/similarities of the Negro African language groups. The African linguists will be able to bring out the
earlier history of the Christian era; they will also trace out the invaders who brought the Neo-Sudanese civilisation which was found from the ruins of Zimbabwe and the exploiters of the tin mines of Nigeria. Considering all these facts, Professor Hutton of Cambridge since several years back itself affirms, that the invaders and exploiters mentioned above must be Indians.
Before finishing we shall recall certain facts which were very often ignored and left in the dark.
I. The maritime waves going up from the south to north along the west coast of India pass on to south of Arabia and go down towards Zanzibar.
2. Next to Africans, Dravidians (Indians) were more dark in colour. The Dravidians went to Africa through the Red sea. They were black men but not Brahmins.
3. The Periplus of the Erythraean sea of First century A.D. mentions that the Indian colonies appeared on the coast of East Africa.
NOTE:
The numerous words of Negro-African are closely related to the old Egyptian and Copte.
Example:
chillouk - choli ket or get
ee baati - Egyptian kd, Copte ket
Now, certain words are found in the Dravidian and Egyptian languages which are common to the Negro-African languages. Negro-African and Dravidian languages are not recognized as part of the Egypto-semitic group.
Above all we have been led to formulate the following hypothesis. The Egyptians of the first dynasty came from indus and settled in Egypt nearly 3000 B.C. Their spoken language was very close to modern Dravidian. They might have influenced the people of Semitic language. Even today they adopt some rare traces of the Dravidian morphology,
Example: i - Dravidian feminine
un/oui/oue - Copte
Common feminine suffix to Semitic and Dravidian.
A deep research would give certainly some other facts but for the time being we come to know some common vocabularies as follows:
bw = Elephant - Egyptian
iblia = Elephant - Kannada (Dravidian)
shrr = small - Egyptian
chiru = small - Kannada
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Although Homburger believed that Africans originated in India we know today from the archaeology that the Dravidians originated in Africa.
Kerma
Nubian Pottery
B.B. Lal (1963) proved conclusively that the Dravidians were genetically related to the C group of Nubia, given the fact that both groups used 1) a common BRW, 2) a common burial complex incorporating megaliths and circular rock enclosures and 3) a common type of rock cut sepulchre.
South India
The BRW industry diffused from Nubia, across West Asia into Rajastan, and thence to East Central and South India. (Rao 1972:34)
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Gaul you are right about the Tehenu. The Tehenu are often associated with the C-Group people. Dravidians and Niger-Congo speakers can trace their descent back to these groups.
Amratian Pottery
The Egyptians and West Africans formerly lived together in the highland areas of Africa, I call "The Fertile African Cresent", until they moved into the Nile delta (the Egyptians) and West Africa (Niger-Congo speakers). These Proto-Saharans were called Ta-Seti and Tehenu by the Egyptians. Farid(1985,p.82) noted that "We can notice that the beginning of the Neolithic stage in Egypt on the edge of the Western Desert corresponds with the expansion of the Saharian Neolithic culture and the growth of its population" (emphasis that of author).
A Tehenu personage is depicted on Amratian period pottery (Farid 1985 ,p. 84). The Tehenu wore pointed beard, phallic-sheath and feathers on their head.
Tehenu on Amratian Pottery
The red-and-black pottery was probably created by the C-Group people. They spread this ceramic style throughout Asia and Middle Africa.
The inhabitants of the Fezzan were round headed black Africans (Jelinek, 1985,p.273). The cultural characteristics of the Fezzanese were analogous to C-Group culture items and the people of Ta-Seti . The C-Group people occupied the Sudan and Fezzan regions between 3700-1300 BC (Jelinek 1985).
The inhabitants of Libya were called Tmhw (Temehus). The Temehus were organized into two groups the Thnw (Tehenu) in the North and the Nhsj (Nehesy) in the South (Diop 1986).
The Temehus are called the C-Group people by archaeologists (Jelinek,1985; Quellec, 1985). The central Fezzan was a center of C-Group settlement.
Members of the C-Group probably entered Egypt and founded some of the Southern nomes associated with the Inyotefs.
Quellec (1985, p.373) discussed in detail the presence of C-Group culture traits in the Central Fezzan along with their cattle during the middle of the Third millennium BC. The Temehus or C-Group people began to settle Kush around 2200 BC.
The kings of Kush had their capital at Kerma, in Dongola and a sedentary center on Sai Island. The same pottery found at Kerma is also present in Libya especially the Fezzan. There are similarities between Egyptian and Saharan motifs (Farid,1985). It was in the Sahara that we find the first evidence of agriculture, animal domestication and weaving (Farid ,1985, p.82).
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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alTakruri, The Ethnic names Akan, Fante, Yoruba, Hausa...are relatively singular and stable and therefore are easier to search for in the Mdu Ntr but on the contrary look at the difficulty you encounter with the "Fulani" ethnic group: Fula, Fulani, Fulbe, Peul, Peulh, Peuhl, Pulaar, Fulfulde...
Since you seem to stubbornly insist on my finding this group's ethnic title, I first need to know what it is???
Ex: if it were - in the old days in Algeria - "Peul" then I would know to look for it within the following categories "pr" & "fr" in the dictionary - you see?
I have personally seen enough evidence to convince me that the Fulani once resided in the Nile Valley, but because of your insistence on this little (and it is little) detail "it must be in writing," I will find this information for you, if you provide me with the singular (or two) self-identification name of these people from the earliest times... Thanx
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
The subject is Fulani. Dancing an "Akan, Fante, Yoruba, Hausa..." beat doesn't help you. Being cluelessly unable to differentiate what Fulani call themselves versus what others call them does not help you. Invoking names of deities does not help you. And guess what? Al~Takruri does not help you.
You must be the one to support your own viewpoint. Don't expect me to do it for you. Hundreds of ethnonyms are in the AEL records. You go find the applicable one yourself.
I maintain that the first rcorded instance of Fulani cultural traits happened in West Africa over 5000 years ago. If you disagree fine, but archaeology is in agrement. All the emotionallyc feinted sighs in the world will never replace academic proofing.
Bring us some on an autonymous ethny in AE answering your thread header The Egyptian Origin of the Fulani, please. It's ludicrous (laugh laugh laugh) to propose that and then not even know the name they call themselves.
quote:Originally posted by Wally: (sigh...sigh...sigh...)
alTakruri, The Ethnic names Akan, Fante, Yoruba, Hausa...are relatively singular and stable and therefore are easier to search for in the Mdu Ntr but on the contrary look at the difficulty you encounter with the "Fulani" ethnic group: Fula, Fulani, Fulbe, Peul, Peulh, Peuhl, Pulaar, Fulfulde...
Since you seem to stubbornly insist on my finding this group's ethnic title, I first need to know what it is???
Ex: if it were - in the old days in Algeria - "Peul" then I would know to look for it within the following categories "pr" & "fr" in the dictionary - you see?
I have personally seen enough evidence to convince me that the Fulani once resided in the Nile Valley, but because of your insistence on this little (and it is little) detail "it must be in writing," I will find this information for you, if you provide me with the singular (or two) self-identification name of these people from the earliest times... Thanx
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
With this much alone I can 99% agree with, my caveat being that Egypt was also populated from Sudan as well as from what now are desert lands to its west.
The thing is that archaeologically speaking the Lower Nile Valley is a place that evidences human settlement and occupation from before even the Early Stone Age clear up to our times. Which of course makes it very interesting about the formation of the kingdom and supporting the underlying multi-ethnic composition of dynastic Egypt.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Egyptians and West Africans formerly lived together in the highland areas of Africa, I call "The Fertile African Cresent", until they moved into the Nile delta (the Egyptians) and West Africa (Niger-Congo speakers).
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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The names for the Fula language are Pulaar on the West coast and Fulfulde from west to Sudan.
.
quote:Originally posted by Wally: (sigh...sigh...sigh...)
alTakruri, The Ethnic names Akan, Fante, Yoruba, Hausa...are relatively singular and stable and therefore are easier to search for in the Mdu Ntr but on the contrary look at the difficulty you encounter with the "Fulani" ethnic group: Fula, Fulani, Fulbe, Peul, Peulh, Peuhl, Pulaar, Fulfulde...
Since you seem to stubbornly insist on my finding this group's ethnic title, I first need to know what it is???
Ex: if it were - in the old days in Algeria - "Peul" then I would know to look for it within the following categories "pr" & "fr" in the dictionary - you see?
I have personally seen enough evidence to convince me that the Fulani once resided in the Nile Valley, but because of your insistence on this little (and it is little) detail "it must be in writing," I will find this information for you, if you provide me with the singular (or two) self-identification name of these people from the earliest times... Thanx
The people here on EgyptSearch have been very slack when discovering the latest DNA data. I have the latest reports and you and I must rethink everything.
I finally started to do a seriuos look at the Igbo and kept saying to myself that the look like the Fulani and the Yoruba look the the Igbo etc.
Genetically speaking the Nigerian Fulani = Yourba = Hausa = Igbo.
In otherwords, they are the same people!!!!!!!!
The tribal differences are all in their minds.
Just as the Senegalese Peul = Mandenka = Wolof = Serer.
Location is most important.
There were pyramids in Igboland and obelisks in Yorubaland. The Ancient Egyptians or Nubians influenced Nigerians before tribes developed.
The Hyksos could have come in the form of R1b carrying males to Nigeria and Cameroon early on!!
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Van Sertima didn't mention anything you fool.
Why don't you know the difference between an editor of a journal (van Sertima) and an author of one of a journal's selections (Reynolds-Marniche)?
quote:Originally posted by The Gaul: ... Ivan Van Sertima's book "The Golden Age of the Moor",
. . .
Pg. 120, sub-chapter: "The Fulani as Gaitules"
quote:... They have, except their language, many habits of dress and accoutrements in common with Somali and Rendili and at times a strong familial resemblance to Cushitic peoples in general.
To which I already mentioned how Somali and other horners I have heard speak about exactly what Sertima mentioned in the last sentence. Continuing...
The fact that you mentioned Van Sertima is the EDITOR of this journal, presented as a book gives more wieght to the argument, since it is he who has the last say in who and what is allowed to be voiced in this journal. Anything he disagreed with he gave his own take on it throughout this journal in book form, if you bothered to read it.
Whats presented here, as EDITED by VAN SERTIMA is that its a forgone conclusion that the Fulani represent the ancient Libyians, who's ancestors were C-group (NILE VALLEY) Nubians. The only points of contention here is when the pale faced "Tamahou" or Libyans arrived. Dana Reynolds says they came later and that "Tamahou" merely came to be a reference to the foreign invaders who later became mercenaries, while Chandler beleives these pale-skinned "foreigners" were always there, while still acknowledging that the "Tenehou" were the C-group Nubians that PRECEDED the "Tamahou" in ancient Libya and represented today by groups like the Fulani.
I've been gone for a while, but since I'm back, I think it's high time for you to start presenting some real, hard evidence as to where Fulani were between the time of the Saharan rock art paintings and later when showed up in modern Mauritania. That is a huge gap for which you have presented NO evidence from anyone to fill, while those of us on the other side have provided countless lines of evidence to the contrary.
Time to stop the shallow American Patriot like rebuttals and provide your own evidence that places them outside of the Nile Valley for THIS time gap. Plain and simple.
Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
I deign to respond because of your ad hominem but vanSertima does not interject in his journals. He has an overview section more or less introducing each author and article.
In regards to Golden Age of the Moor being a book or a journal, it's frontpiece clearly labels it the JOURNAL OF AFRICAN CIVILIZATIONS VOL. II FALL, 1991 GOLDEN AGE OF THE MOOR
The material in the journal is presented by van Sertima without prejudice or preference. This well suits a professor who doesn't micro-dictate his students and colleagues directions.
Those of us who aren't pack-asses know to credit the actual author of a journal's article (or a book's chapter) not the editor. Only a jackass carrying books (it cannot understand) would make the other mistake.
For pertinent for dumbasses is this note actually penned by the editor Ivan Van Sertima himself: Lay-readers are advised to concentrate on the introduction and conclusions to Reynolds' essay, since the bulk of it is presented in a style intended primarily for the perusal of specialists.
As for the Fulani. I'm done. I see no need to repeat myself and yet again answer a challenge that the poser thereof has failed miserably to do for his own case of fantasy.
quote:Originally posted by The Gaul:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Van Sertima didn't mention anything you fool.
Why don't you know the difference between an editor of a journal (van Sertima) and an author of one of a journal's selections (Reynolds-Marniche)?
quote:Originally posted by The Gaul: ... Ivan Van Sertima's book "The Golden Age of the Moor",
. . .
Pg. 120, sub-chapter: "The Fulani as Gaitules"
quote:... They have, except their language, many habits of dress and accoutrements in common with Somali and Rendili and at times a strong familial resemblance to Cushitic peoples in general.
To which I already mentioned how Somali and other horners I have heard speak about exactly what Sertima mentioned in the last sentence. Continuing...
The fact that you mentioned Van Sertima is the EDITOR of this journal, presented as a book gives more wieght to the argument, since it is he who has the last say in who and what is allowed to be voiced in this journal. Anything he disagreed with he gave his own take on it throughout this journal in book form, if you bothered to read it.
Whats presented here, as EDITED by VAN SERTIMA is that its a forgone conclusion that the Fulani represent the ancient Libyians, who's ancestors were C-group (NILE VALLEY) Nubians. The only points of contention here is when the pale faced "Tamahou" or Libyans arrived. Dana Reynolds says they came later and that "Tamahou" merely came to be a reference to the foreign invaders who later became mercenaries, while Chandler beleives these pale-skinned "foreigners" were always there, while still acknowledging that the "Tenehou" were the C-group Nubians that PRECEDED the "Tamahou" in ancient Libya and represented today by groups like the Fulani.
I've been gone for a while, but since I'm back, I think it's high time for you to start presenting some real, hard evidence as to where Fulani were between the time of the Saharan rock art paintings and later when showed up in modern Mauritania. That is a huge gap for which you have presented NO evidence from anyone to fill, while those of us on the other side have provided countless lines of evidence to the contrary.
Time to stop the shallow American Patriot like rebuttals and provide your own evidence that places them outside of the Nile Valley for THIS time gap. Plain and simple.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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