posted
alTakruri wrote: --------------------------- Considering that even mulatos of parentage where one is black skinned and the other white skinned are mostly closer to white than black in colour (look at Obama in group photos) and think of the effect of cream on coffee. ---------------------------
What the hell is a mullato?
Thats 19th century racial taxonmy bs.
The whites have really f----d over your mind.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
^ Yes, those people who have weak digestive countenance who can't handle the strength of pure coffee need the cream to dilute it. Not unlike negrophobic racists like yourself that have weak psychological countenance who can't handle the cultural strength and intellectual potency of blacks and so needs "cream" in the form of white ancestry among blacks or worse---blatant white-washing of cultural achievements and advancents of blacks even in Africa--Egypt! Posts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I could care less what you put on your blog but paraphrasing is a convenient way to lie. Legally speaking leave my name off of your blog. When plagiarizing you didn't use it. Don't use it now. I do not grant you permission to use either my name or my intellectual property outside of TNV or ES.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Paraphrasing what had transpired here:
Explorer uses his blog to provide the last word on a subject. He will not publish any response you attempt to make and he will present your comments in a distorted fashion. He is not a seeker of truth.
Also, You may not be able to sue him unless you know his real name.
I could care less what you put on your blog but paraphrasing is a convenient way to lie.
And you don't think I couldn't care even lesser how you perceive my blog? As for paraphrasing to be a "convenient way to lie", it should be quite simple: Just point out wherein there, your viewpoint has not been accurately described via paraphrasing? If you don't know what "paraphrasing" means, I'll be happy to assist you.
quote: Legally speaking leave my name off of your blog.
I put on my blog whatever I see fit. Capish! Thought you could care less what I put on my blog, anyway?!
quote: When plagiarizing you didn't use it. Don't use it now. I do not grant you permission to use either my name or my intellectual property outside of TNV or ES.
al Takruri, you are such a funny character, don't you know that. For starters, how does one "plagiarize" something that they are discrediting or even ridiculing...prey tell?
quote:
ATTENTION MODERATOR
I have ended dialog with this character on this subject.
Please either edit transscript (hi-lited below) supposedly made by me from this post or delete the whole post. Explorer is putting words in my mouth I never said when he could very easily quote me verbatim.
I have ended dialog with this character on this subject.
Please ignore his/her plea for censorship or "cocooning" his/her fragile-self from intellectual-challenge, by muting what "he/She" deems as the questioning of his/her "fake" authority on this board. He/she was long preceded by this veteran on this site, and yet he/she comes in here, all of a sudden acting like he/she owns the damn place.
Ps - Clyde, I'll reply to your BS when I get time. A "teacher" who doesn't know basic geographic parameters, and instead, relies on "geopolitics", LOL!
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
Clyde you've got to be the dumbest thing this side of two legs.
How can Chad and Niger be so called "west" Africa while Morocco and Algeria aren't although both are further west than Chad or Niger?
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
I don't have to sue him, it's his host which is ultimately responsible for publishing him and will eiher adhere to the law or waste money in the courts.
I'm really not interested in his past plagiarisms because what really matters is that the knowledge spreads. But I will not tolerate if he chooses to blog his so-called paraphrase of our exchange on Fulani cattle.
But pick up on this, he knows they ARE zebu
quote: Other notes: Fulani cattle are also deemed to be of west African origin, as a sub-phyla of the west African breed of Zebu cattle called the "West African Zebu,"...
That's what's on his blog under his MysterySolver pseudonym.
So before he even posted "NOT zebu" here he blogged zebu there, the guy justs likes to argue for argument's sake. That's why he makes pretend my source, Ibeagha-Awemu, isn't an African or that Bororo and Hausa are the dairy professionals I allude to after the Oklahoma University data.
Careful readers concerned with factual matter wouldn't fail to perceive that. But someone looking to swell their own head at another's expense would refuse to see it because then they'd have nothing to make a fake fuss over.
In his next to last paragraph in his above post one can see what his problem is, he feels eclipsed though there's room for all to express themselves on these forums
quote:Please ignore his/her plea for censorship or "cocooning" his/her fragile-self from intellectual-challenge, by muting what "he/She" deems as the questioning of his/her "fake" authority on this board. He/she was long preceded by this veteran on this site, and yet he/she comes in here, all of a sudden acting like he/she owns the damn place.
My life's too short for that mess, being at odds with everyone all the time over nothing more than ego tripping.
But to each his own.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I could care less what you put on your blog but paraphrasing is a convenient way to lie. Legally speaking leave my name off of your blog. When plagiarizing you didn't use it. Don't use it now. I do not grant you permission to use either my name or my intellectual property outside of TNV or ES.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Paraphrasing what had transpired here:
Explorer uses his blog to provide the last word on a subject. He will not publish any response you attempt to make and he will present your comments in a distorted fashion. He is not a seeker of truth.
Also, You may not be able to sue him unless you know his real name.
.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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I don't have to sue him, it's his host which is ultimately responsible for publishing him and will eiher adhere to the law or waste money in the courts.
Don't flatter yourself pal; you couldn't sue jack, especially for a "non-reason" entity, other than being your usual whino-self about being intellectually challenged.
quote: I'm really not interested in his past plagiarisms
Which don't exist, other than a figment of your imagination.
quote: because what really matters is that the knowledge spreads. But I will not tolerate if he chooses to blog his so-called paraphrase of our exchange on Fulani cattle.
What will you do; sue me? Ha ha. You are funny, jack.
quote:
But pick up on this, he knows they ARE zebu
quote: Other notes: Fulani cattle are also deemed to be of west African origin, as a sub-phyla of the west African breed of Zebu cattle called the "West African Zebu,"...
You are a moron. I never said I was not aware of people using that term; I did however say, the terminology is inaccurate, and I don't agree with it. Try to muddle this reiteration up, again.
quote: So before he even posted "NOT zebu" here he blogged zebu there, the guy justs likes to argue for argument's sake.
Fool, I don't use that word myself, unless I'm citing somebody else or some other source. Do you know the difference between citing an external source, and expousing something oneself? Apparently not!
quote: That's why he makes pretend my source, Ibeagha-Awemu, isn't an African or that Bororo and Hausa are the dairy professionals I allude to after the Oklahoma University data.
Citing research materials that turn your arguments upsidedown have turned from being a function of "being emotional" to "pretence", LOL!. What will these research materials turn into next, LOL? You would be a jokester, if only you were funny.
quote: Careful readers concerned with factual matter wouldn't fail to perceive that.
Indeed, anybody who can read their ABCs and have good pair of eyes will notice the plentiful research material you were fed and schooled on, but apparentally did not penetrate your skull...both willfully and ignorantly.
quote:
But someone looking to swell their own head at another's expense would refuse to see it because then they'd have nothing to make a fake fuss over.
This is no more than your usual whinin'. You are reduced to nagging on and on, but the perceptive can see that you have not really recovered from the well-supported rebuttles I threw at you. There is an obvious discordance in our intuitions into the genetics subject field...with me having the upper hand.
quote:
quote: In his next to last paragraph in his above post one can see what his problem is, he feels eclipsed though there's room for all to express themselves on these forums [QUOTE]Please ignore his/her plea for censorship or "cocooning" his/her fragile-self from intellectual-challenge, by muting what "he/She" deems as the questioning of his/her "fake" authority on this board. He/she was long preceded by this veteran on this site, and yet he/she comes in here, all of a sudden acting like he/she owns the damn place.
You mean that people here are all idiots that they can't see that you are a nagger, who pleas for censorship when you are backed in the corner, LOL?
quote: My life's too short for that mess, being at odds with everyone all the time over nothing more than ego tripping.
"Tripping" is the word I would use, to describe what you have been reduced to, not having the ability to intellectually justify your objections to my position. I understand your frustration, trust me.
Clyde, don't worry. I'll get back to you. Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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It is truely sad that you spend so much time arguing questions that are settled.
How does your inability to tell us what parameters determine north, south, west and east, and how this applies to Africa become a "settled matter" all of a sudden? Entertain me with a "logical" answer, not "your kind" of answer, to that question, LOL.
quote: This political map of Africa reflects the way I was taught African history
The keywords: "Political", NOT scientific.
Indeed, you accuse others of being brainwashed by Eurocentric propaganda, but it is clearly YOU has has been mind-screwed thoroughly, that you'd resort to rehashing Euro-created "geopolitical" entities [which no doubt change from time to time as well] that you were "programmed" to repeat **without** secondary thinking. In your zeal to spread your delusions of an "extra-terrestrial-like" Fulani origin and separate them from west Africa, even though everything about them is as west African as they come, you have been left with no option than to use what you were "programmed" to think, like a helpless machine as your Euro masters had intended.
Funny thing is, not even radical Eurocentric loons harbor hairbrain wacky ideas like that espousing the Sahara NOT running through western Africa, that you come up with.
quote: I had to take courese on each region of Africa and their were text written on each region used in my studies.
What was that course called: "Flunking basic geography", LOL?
quote: Stop this farce acknowledge how researchers have divided Africa in the past 100 or more years.
Firstly, you are clueless about what constitutes west Africa or north Africa, where either entity begins or ends, and according to what objective or scientific parameters. Sorry, geopolitics is not scientific...contrary to what you were "taught" to believe, LOL.
Secondly, you have been rendered *totally* incapacitated in producing a single genetic source which places Fulani cattle origin anywhere other than western Africa, and so the stalling games of "non-answers" and half-baked Eurocentric-sanctioned "political" maps.
quote:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
By the way Clyde, what happened to your answer to this question; did the question confuse you too much?
Another question to confuse you with...
Produce a single genetic source that places Fulani cattle origin anywhere but western Africa!
I have seen no evidence that Fulani cattle originated in West Africa.
You haven't; but these geneticists have:
DAGRIS Team: Dr. Edward Rege Dr. Olivier Hanotte Dr. Tadelle Dessie Mr. Biruk Asrat Ms. Yetnayet Mamo
quote: In the material you posted above it simply states where the sample population in the study came from. It says nothing about the geographical origin of Fulani cattle.
It is natural for you to "think" that it doesn't say such a thing, when otherwise, we able-minded folks understand what this means:
Breed Group Name: West African Zebu
The West African Zebu cattle consist of two main groups: the Gudali group (Adamawa, Sokoto) and the Fulani group.
The Fulani have been classified further into two groups: the lyre-horned subgroup consisting of Senegalese Fulani (or the Gobra), the Sudanese Fulani, and the White Fulani (or Bunaji); and long-horned subgroup represented by the Red Fulani (or Rahaji). Diali (or Djeli) is a strain of Fulani found on the flood plains of Niger river in Niger and south-west Nigeria (Rege 1999; Rege and Tawah, 1999).
I also posted this in a reply to al Takruri, who was also another absent-minded recipient of the highly instructive material:
In case, you need hand-held "guiding" in reading, do you see the part where it says:
Introduced Zebu were crossbred with indigenous taurine cattle in Ethiopia where it is claimed they produced the Sanga -- an intermediate between true Zebu and taurine animals. Others spread to West Africa through the Sudan, crossbreeding with local humpless animals to produce breeds such as the Fulani in West Africa.
Now, show me a single genetic source that characterizes the Fulani as "East African Zebu" or "of east African origin"!
quote: The Fulani outside West Africa have the same Zebu cattle.
Silly, of course they have "Fulani" cattle, because after all, they are the agents of its spread from western Africa to other parts of the continent. Your predicament is, that these cattle are further proof that the Fulani must have arrived from west Africa, because wherever they are, they have these cattle with them, of west African origin. The truth can be a bitch, can't it?
quote:What we do know is that the Fulani language is related to 12th Dynasty Egyptian
Newsflash: only YOU seem to know this, which is understandable, because it is a fruitcake idea that has no logical basis to it; "we" don't.
quote: and that it was during this period that Zebu cattle came to Egypt. This makes it clear that Fulani probably had humped cattle thousands of years before they migrated into West Africa from the East.
Is that why the "Fulani" cattle are less than 1800 bp years old, and why one doesn't find "Fulani" cattle in AE reliefs? Is that why their DNA report a "west African ancestry" as opposed to "eastern African' one?
posted
This topic began with the purpose of identifying the factors which demonstrated that the Fulani people had, at one time in their history, formed a part of the historical complex which we refer today as Ancient Egypt. It, for some reason, segued into a discussion on cattle, and of breeds of cattle --
...Zebu??
I was tempted to chime in with the fact that in Ancient Egypt there was a type of cattle referred to as "Tb", "Tebu", "Tepau"...and might there not be some connection with the "Zebu?"...
...but, we suddenly find the topic discussing such an irrelevant subject as the geological/political/ideological labels of the African continent - north?, south?, east?....
Obviously, this is a topic which is going nowhere and verrrrry slowwwly...
...It's like you tune your tv to watch say MSNBC, when some wise-ass, switches the channel to nut-land FOX news...
...You watch, now we'll be discussing television shows!
Explorer uses his blog to provide the last word on a subject.
Complete BS. Most of the material I post on my blog, involving any discussant on ES, are taken from "debates" that took place right here on ES. I don't control this board, nor do I pretend to control the board and ask for censorship like our buddy 'al Takruri does. In fact, over the years I have been the victim of extreme censorship here. How could I then use my "blog" to provide the last word? Now of course, I could give my additional 2 cents on said matters on my own webpage, but I'm entitled to that. If you have issue with that, I suggest you create your own, and stop the petty whinin'.
quote: He will not publish any response you attempt to make
Utter BS. What is your proof of this? In fact, I have something here [taken from my blog] to bust your lie:
=== Truthseeker said...
Rilly believes that he can decipher the Meroitic language using the Proto-Northeastern Sudanic, which he has reconstructed. Accordingto Rilly, since the people presently living in the Sudan today speak languages associate with the Nilo Saharan Superfamily of languages, the Meroites probably spoke a language associated with this family. This was a radical decision, because research has shown that none of the attested Meroitic terms accepted by mainstream scholars are related to any living language in the Sudan (there are some Meroitic terms borrowed from Egyptian).
Because there are no cognate Meroitic terms and lexical items in the Eastern Sudanic Languages, Rilly has begun to reconstruct Proto-Eastern Sudanic, and attempt to read Meroitic text using his Proto-Eastern Sudanic vocabulary. Even if I hadn’t deciphered the Meroitic writing this method would never lead to the decipherment of this or any other language.
First,it must be stated that no“dead “language has been deciphered using a proto-language. These languages were deciphered using living languages, Coptic in the case of Egyptian, Oromo and(Ethiopian) Semitic was used to decipher the Mesopotamian Cuneiform scripts.
The basic problem with using a proto-anguage to read a dead language results from the fact that the proto-language has been reconstructed by linguist who have no knowledge or textual evidence of the alleged proto-language. Secondly, there are subgroups in any family of languages. This means that you must first establish the intermediate proto-language (IPL) of the subgroup languages in the target language family. Once the IPLs have been reconstructed, you can then reconstruct the superordinate proto-language (SPL).
You can only reconstruct the SPL on the basis of attested languages. In addition, before you can reconstruct the IPLs and SPL a genetic relationship must be established for the languages within the Superfamily of languages, e.g., Nilo Saharan.
The problem with Rilly’s method, is there is no way he can really establish the IPLs in Eastern Sudanic because we have not textual evidence or lexical items spoken by people who lived in the Sudan in Meroitic times.
As a result, the languages spoken by people in this area today may not reflect the linguistic geography of the Sudan in the Meroitic period. This is most evident when we look at modern Egypt. Today the dominant language is Arabic, and yet Arabic has no relationship to Egyptian. If we accept Rilly’s method for deciphering Egyptian we would assume that once me reconstructed proto-Semitic , we could read Egyptian—but as you know Egyptian is not a Semitic language. Secondly, researchers have compared the “attested Meroitic” terms to all the Nilo-Saharan languages. The results were negative, they do not relate to any Eastern Sudanic language.
If the lexical items attested in Meroitic are not cognate to Eastern Sudanic terms, there is no way to establish a genetic relationship between these languages. Absence of a genetic relationship means that we can not reconstruct the imagined IPLs of Meroitic sister languages, since these researchers failed to find a connection between Meroitic and the Eastern Sudanic. As a result, Rilly’s reconstructions of Nilo-Saharan can offer no insight into the language spoken by the Meroites.
Mystery Solver wrote:
“Obviously a gross misinterpretation of Mr. Rilly's premise. Mr. Rilly never said anything about reading Meroitic by using Proto-Nilo-Saharan. What Mr. Rilly did, as would be obvious to anyone who has read his piece, was to try to expand on the limited vocabulary available from previous work on the Meroitic script using a multi-contextual approach, but essentially the reasonably methodological & standard linguistic approaches to reconstruction.”
Mystery Solver claims that Rilly does not attempt to read Meroitic inscriptions using his “proto-terms”. This is false any cursory examination of the Rilly article shows that he tried to read a Meroitic panel using his vocabulary.
Mystery Solver knows nothing about linguistics. As a result, he does not understand that a Proto-language can never be verified, since such a language is the creation of the l
April 14, 2008 10:47 AM
Mystery Solver said...
Truthseeker, aka Clyde Winters,
It would be courteous of you to actually lay out the *specifics* that you intend to challenge on a point-by-point basis, naturally backed up with *actual* citations—NOT corrupt paraphrases—along with links of the supportive material, rather than simply rehash material that had already been refuted in the very post you're supposedly replying to.
Re-posting discredited material tends to only show lack of intellectual [including capacity] and energetic will to engage very specific points, not to mention lack of credibility integrity, and contempt for simple reading of the materials at hand.
truthseeker, aka Clyde Winters, wrote:
Mystery Solver claims that Rilly does not attempt to read Meroitic inscriptions using his “proto-terms”. This is false any cursory examination of the Rilly article shows that he tried to read a Meroitic panel using his vocabulary.
Simple really: I challenge you to put up the specific Mr. Rilly citation [with its link of course] for this spurious claim about reading Meroitic by using "proto-terms"...or else, as they say; simply remain "silent" — to put it rather politely!
Try to live up to your chosen alias, instead of the opposite.
This busts your petty lie about my not publishing comments that I don't agree with. I publish material, regardless of its merit, as long as the commenter is not being rude in their wording or using ad hominem to relate their opinion! You have offered no support for the BS coming out of your ass, other than simply going by "I say so", and I target any sucker out there who chooses to willfully and ignorantly be duped, like al Takruri who has been intellectually destitute enough to even recite you, LOL.
quote: and he will present your comments in a distorted fashion.
I don't know which school has been dumb enough to have hired you to be a "teacher" of any sort, but it is clear you don't have any trait that characterizes one. I mean seriously, do you really feel the need to shamelessly lie out in the open, just to make yourself artificially intelligent?
Here is your comment:
Truthseeker said...
Rilly believes that he can decipher the Meroitic language using the Proto-Northeastern Sudanic, which he has reconstructed. Accordingto Rilly, since the people presently living in the Sudan today speak languages associate with the Nilo Saharan Superfamily of languages, the Meroites probably spoke a language associated with this family. This was a radical decision, because research has shown that none of the attested Meroitic terms accepted by mainstream scholars are related to any living language in the Sudan (there are some Meroitic terms borrowed from Egyptian).
Because there are no cognate Meroitic terms and lexical items in the Eastern Sudanic Languages, Rilly has begun to reconstruct Proto-Eastern Sudanic, and attempt to read Meroitic text using his Proto-Eastern Sudanic vocabulary. Even if I hadn’t deciphered the Meroitic writing this method would never lead to the decipherment of this or any other language.
First,it must be stated that no“dead “language has been deciphered using a proto-language. These languages were deciphered using living languages, Coptic in the case of Egyptian, Oromo and(Ethiopian) Semitic was used to decipher the Mesopotamian Cuneiform scripts.
The basic problem with using a proto-anguage to read a dead language results from the fact that the proto-language has been reconstructed by linguist who have no knowledge or textual evidence of the alleged proto-language. Secondly, there are subgroups in any family of languages. This means that you must first establish the intermediate proto-language (IPL) of the subgroup languages in the target language family. Once the IPLs have been reconstructed, you can then reconstruct the superordinate proto-language (SPL).
You can only reconstruct the SPL on the basis of attested languages. In addition, before you can reconstruct the IPLs and SPL a genetic relationship must be established for the languages within the Superfamily of languages, e.g., Nilo Saharan.
The problem with Rilly’s method, is there is no way he can really establish the IPLs in Eastern Sudanic because we have not textual evidence or lexical items spoken by people who lived in the Sudan in Meroitic times.
As a result, the languages spoken by people in this area today may not reflect the linguistic geography of the Sudan in the Meroitic period. This is most evident when we look at modern Egypt. Today the dominant language is Arabic, and yet Arabic has no relationship to Egyptian. If we accept Rilly’s method for deciphering Egyptian we would assume that once me reconstructed proto-Semitic , we could read Egyptian—but as you know Egyptian is not a Semitic language. Secondly, researchers have compared the “attested Meroitic” terms to all the Nilo-Saharan languages. The results were negative, they do not relate to any Eastern Sudanic language.
If the lexical items attested in Meroitic are not cognate to Eastern Sudanic terms, there is no way to establish a genetic relationship between these languages. Absence of a genetic relationship means that we can not reconstruct the imagined IPLs of Meroitic sister languages, since these researchers failed to find a connection between Meroitic and the Eastern Sudanic. As a result, Rilly’s reconstructions of Nilo-Saharan can offer no insight into the language spoken by the Meroites.
Mystery Solver wrote:
“Obviously a gross misinterpretation of Mr. Rilly's premise. Mr. Rilly never said anything about reading Meroitic by using Proto-Nilo-Saharan. What Mr. Rilly did, as would be obvious to anyone who has read his piece, was to try to expand on the limited vocabulary available from previous work on the Meroitic script using a multi-contextual approach, but essentially the reasonably methodological & standard linguistic approaches to reconstruction.”
Mystery Solver claims that Rilly does not attempt to read Meroitic inscriptions using his “proto-terms”. This is false any cursory examination of the Rilly article shows that he tried to read a Meroitic panel using his vocabulary.
Mystery Solver knows nothing about linguistics. As a result, he does not understand that a Proto-language can never be verified, since such a language is the creation of the l
Tell us what has been specifically and intentionally "distorted" about it, other than the distorted logic you yourself espouse in there, LOL?
Don't quit your daytime job to become liar; you suck at it.
quote: He is not a seeker of truth.
Why; because I don't let little ol' Clyde get away with stupid and illogical claims that he wishes to spout up in here? LOL.
quote: Also, You may not be able to sue him unless you know his real name.
Well, a word of advice is this: if you are going to sue somebody, you might want to first make sure that it is not a totally stupid thing to do that revolves around a 'non-reason' entity, which I'm afraid, is what's precisely the case here. For example, you can't sue someone, simply because they choose to refute and rid you off of your stupidity, like say, was done in al Takruri's case. And even if you knew my real name, what are you going to sue about? That I choose to reproduce our exchange, an exchange which doesn't make you look good, because you were stupid enough to make utter dumb and illogical comments, LOL? Sue me, because you have this fake sense of "ownership" for nothing original from your part? Sue me, because you've thought of lies to spread about me, that have no legs to stand on? Well, be my guest. I can't wait to be a party to this circus. Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
Explorer you are so full of yourself that you believe everything you write is true. There is no such thing as a scientific division of Africa the whole enterprise is political.
Here are the regions of Africa:
Explorer grow up. . .
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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How can Niger/Chad be "west" Africa and Morocco/Algeria not be "west" Africa when they are even further west than Niger/Chad?
How can Libya not be "west" Africa and Chad be "west" Africa when they are at almost the same latitude?
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [qb] The Fula speak a language that is part of the Niger-Congo group.There is controversy surrounding the homeland of Niger-Congo.But most linguist place the homeland for this linguistic group in the Nile Valley. An origin of the Niger-Congo people in the Nile Valley would explain the close relationship between the Fulani and Egyptian languages; and place Fulani in East Africa.
For example, Jaja, J. M. 2008 “Interdisciplinary Methods for the Writing of “African History: A Reappraisal,” European Journal of Social Sciences 5(4): 55-65 [QUOTE]
(2) Niger – Kordofanian homeland The West African region is largely made up of the Niger-Kordofanian language family. The block of course excludes the 100 or 50 languages classified as Afro-Asiatic and the Songhai and Kanuri languages which belong to the Nile -–Saharan group. The Niger – Kordofanian family is composed of three large blocks called the Mande, Niger – Congo and Kordofanian. Niger – Congo occupies the eastern section of West Africa, Mande the Western section and Kordofanian the area to the south west of Sudan. The present geographical location of these three language blocks forms a fanlike structure, which suggests that their homeland is at the south-western Sahara where the boundaries of each group converge. The Mande group does not have the same degree of internal diversity as the Niger – Congo and Kordofanian. But Niger-Congo and Kordofanian have the same degree of diversity. (Dalby 1965). A combination of this fact and the fan-shaped arrangement of the three language blocks suggests that they belong to the same main language family. Besides, the unfavourable ecological situation north of the homeland, and the possibility of only moving southwards explains the fan-shaped nature of the dispersal to the area of southwestern Sahara.
Jaja discusses the present location of the speakers of these languages, but like Welmers he situates there homeland in the Sahara near Nubia.
McIntosh, R. J. 1998 The Peoples of the Middle Niger: the Island of Gold Oxford: Blackwell Publishers
quote:
Thus, we have a curious—and complex—pattern of prehistoric occupation in the Méma. There are a few sites demonstrably earlier than c. 4500-4000 BP [3.3-2.5 KBC]. There is a flourit of stone-using communities around 3500-3300 BP [1.9-1.6KBC] (with population injections from the Hodh and the Azawad). Then the region suffers an apparent sharp fall-off of population at c. 800-500 BC (despite a final infusion of Tichitt folk at mid-millennium)..
Does not contradict Welmer’s, all it says is that people from Dar Tichitt entered the area around 800-500 BC, this was hundreds of years after the Mande had established settlement in the Dar Tichitt region.
Roger Blench, Is Niger-Congo simply a branch of Nilo-Saharan, Nilo-Saharan ,(1995) 10:83-128, like Welmer’s noted that :
"Previous writers, noting the concentration of families in West Africa, have tended to assume a location somewhere near the headwaters of the Niger and explained Kordofanian by the migration of a single group. If the present classification is accepted, it becomes far more likely that the homeland was in in the centre of present-daySudan and the Kordofanian represents the Niger-Congo speakers who stayed at home (p.98)."
Roger Blench. 2006. Archaeology, Language, and the African Past New York: Altamira Press
quote:
pp. 132-133. With some misgivings, Table 3.4 puts forward dates and possible motives for expansion for the families of Niger-Congo. The dates are arranged in order of antiquity, not in the hypothetical order suggested by the genetic tree, and, in many cases the two are strongly at variance. There is no necessary correlation between the age of a family estimated from its apparent internal diversity and the date at which it appears to split from the Niger-Congo tree.. . . . .
MANDE 6000 BP Mande languages have spread from north to south with scattered outliers in Nigeria and Cote d’Ivoire. Mande shares the common Niger-Congo roots for cow and goat, and perhaps the Proto-Mande were an isolated livestock-keeping population at the edge of the desert, which expanded southward as habitat change created potential space for livestock keeping. Reconstructions implying cropping are not present in the protolanguage.
Christopher Ehret. 2000 “Language and History,” in B. Heine and D. Nurse, eds. African Languages.An Introduction pp. 274-297 Canbridge: Cambridge University Press
quote:
p. 294 A second, but still early and important stage in Niger-Congo history was the proto-Mande-Congo era. At this period, or so it appears from the evidence of word histories, the cultivation of the guinea yam and possibly other crops, such as the oil palm, began among at least the peoples of the Atlantic and Ijo-Congo branches of the family (Williamson 1993 proposes the early words for these crops; Greenberg 1964 identifies an Atlantic and Ijo-Congo verb for cultivation, •-lim-). Between possibly about 8000 and 6000 BC, these people spread across the woodland savannahs of West Africa, the natural environment of the Guinea yams. At that time, woodland savannah environments extended several hundred kilometers farther north into the Sudan belt than they do today.
The Blench hypothesis of the Mande living in the Sahara and moving southward does not conflict with my theory of a Saharan origin for the Mande speakers.
The term lim, is not the Mande term to cultivate.
In al-Imfeld, Decolonizing: African Agricultural History (2007) , claims that in relation to African agriculture the cultivation of yam began 10,000 years ago and rice cultivation in Africa by 6000 BC.
The major cultivated crop of the Mande speakers was millet not the yam. The term for cultivation among the Mande was not lim is Proto-Paleo-Afro-Dravidian *be . Millet was probably cultivated over 5000 years ago.
The earliest sites for the cultivation of millet lie in the Sahara . Here the earliest archaeological evidence has been found for African millets.
The major grain exploited by Saharan populations was rice ,the yam and pennisetum. McIntosh and McIntosh (1988) has shown that the principal domesticate in the southern Sahara was bulrush millet (pennisetum). Millet impressions have been found on Mande ceramics from both Karkarchinkat in the Tilemsi Valley of Mali, and Dar Tichitt in Mauritania between 4000 and 3000 BP. (McIntosh & McIntosh 1983a,1988; Winters 1986b; Andah 1981)
The linguistic evidence indicates that the Mande and Dravidian speakers formerly lived in intimate contact , in the Sahara. The speakers of these languages share many terms for agriculture.
Given the archaeological evidence for millets in the Sahara, leads to the corollary theory that if the Dravidians originated in Africa, they would share analogous terms for millet with African groups that formerly lived in the Sahara.
One of the principal groups to use millet in Africa are the Northern Mande speaking people . The Mande speaking people belong to the Niger-Congo group. Most linguist agree that the Mande speakers were the first Niger-Congo group to leave the original Nile Valley and Saharan highland primary homeands of the Niger-Congo speakers.
The Northern Mande speakers are divided into the Soninke and Malinke-Bambara groups. Holl (1985,1989) believes that the founders of the Dhar Tichitt site where millet was cultivated in the 2nd millenium B.C., were northern Mande speakers. To test this theory we will compare Dravidian and Black African agricultural terms, especially Northern Mande. The linguistic evidence suggest that the Proto-Dravidians belonged to an ancient sedentary culture which existed in Saharan Africa. We will call the ancestor of this group Paleo-Dravido-Africans.
The Dravidian terms for millet are listed in the Dravidian Etymological Dictionary at 2359, 4300 and 2671. A cursory review of the linguistic examples provided below from the Dravidian (Kol, Tamil ,Kannanda, & Malayalam ) , Mande and Wolof languages show a close relationship between these language. These terms are outlined below:
code:
Kol sonna --- --- ---- Wolof (AF.) suna --- ---- --- Mande (AF) suna bara, baga de-n, doro koro Tamil connal varaga tinai kural Malayalam colam varaku tina --- Kannanda --- baraga, baragu tene korale,korle *sona *baraga *tenä *kora
Below we will compare other Dravidian and African agricultural terms. These terms come from the Mande languages (Malinke, Kpelle, Bambara, Azer, Soninke), West Atlantic (Wolof, Fulani), Afro-Asiatic (Oromo, Galla), Somali, Nubian and the ancient Egyptian. The Paleo-Dravido-Africans came from a sedentary culture that domesticated cattle and grew numerous crops including wheat and millet. The Egyptian term for cultivation is Ř b j(w) #. Egyptian Ř b j(w) # corresponds to many African terms for cultivation:
code:
Galla baji 'cultivated field' Tulu (Dravidian language) bey, benni Nubian ba, bat 'hoe up ground' Malinke be Somali beer Wolof mbey, ambey, bey Egyptian b j(w) Sumerian buru, bur 'to root up'
These terms for cultivate suggest that the Paleo-African term for cultivate was *be.
The Egyptian term for grain is 0 sa #. This corresponds to many African terms for seed,grain:
code:
Galla senyi Malinke se , si Sumerian se Egyptian sen 'granary' Kannanda cigur
Bozo sii Bambara sii Daba sisin Somali sinni Loma sii Susu sansi Oromo sanyi Dime siimu Egyptian ssr 'corn' id. ssn 'lotus plant' id. sm 'herb, plant' id. isw 'weeds'
The identification of a s>Ř/#_________e pattern for 'seed,grain' in the above languages suggest that these groups were familiar with seeds at the time they separated into distinct Supersets. The fact that Sumerian Ř se # and Egyptian Ř sen #, and Malinke Ř se # are all separated both in time and geographical area highlight the early use of seeds * se , by Paleo-Dravido-Africans.
code:
Rice Soninke dugo Vai ko'o Manding malo Dravidian mala-kurula Mende molo, konu Kpelle moloy Boko mole Bisa muhi Busa mole Sa mela Bambara kini
Yam Bozo ku, kunan Vai jambi Malinke ku Dravidian kui, kuna, ku Bambara ku
It would appear that all the Proto-Dravidians were familiar with the cultivation of rice, yams and millet. This is not surprising because Weber (1998) made it clear that millet cultivation in ancient South Asia was associated with rice cultivation.
The linguistic evidence clearly show similarities in the Afican and Dravidian terms for plant domesticates. This suggest that these groups early adopted agriculture and made animal domestication secondary to the cultivation of millet, rice and yams. The analogy for the Malinke-Bambara and Dravidians terms for rice, millet and yams suggest a very early date for the domestication of these crops.
In summary, population pressure in the Sahara during a period of increasing hyperaridity forced hunter/gather/fisher Proto-Dravido-African people to first domesticate animals and then crops. The linguistic evidence discussed above indicate that the Proto-Dravido-African people migrated out of the Nile Valley to West African and Harappan sites with millet, yam and rice already recognized as principal domesticated crop.
This comparison of Mande agricultural terms make it clear, that just like the Egyptian term for dog uher , the speakers of these languages share the terms for cultivate, and seed. It also shows that before the Dravidians separated from the Mande speakers these groups were cultivating also cultivating rice and the yam.
The Niger-Congo speakers which include the Fula, Mande and Wolof originated in the Nile Valley—not West Africa. They migrated from East to West. The oral traditions of these people make it clear that when they arrived on the scene pygmy people were already settled in many areas they occupied.
quote: Wm. E. Welmers. 1971 "Niger-Congo, Mande" in T.A. Sebeok, et al. eds. Linguistics in sub-Saharan Africa (Current Trends in Linguistics, 7), pp. 113-140 The Hague: Mouton
P 119-120. By way of conclusion to this general overview of the Mande languages, a a bit of judicious speculation about Mande origins and migrations may not be out of order. It has already been stated that the Mande languages clearly represent the earliest offshoot from the parent Niger-Congo stock—not counting Kordofanian, which Greenberg considers parallel to all of the Niger-Congo, forming a Niger-Kordofanian macrofamily. An original Niger-Congo homeland in the general vicinity of the upper Nile valley is probably as good a hypothesis as any. From such a homeland, a westward Mande migration may have begun well over 5000 years ago. Perhaps the earliest division within this group resulted in the isolation of what is now represented only by Bobo-fing. Somewhat later— perhaps 3500 to 4500 years ago, and possibly from a new homeland around northern Dahomey [now Benin]— the ancestors of the present Northern-western Mande peoples began pushing farther west, ultimately reaching their present homeland in the grasslands and forests of West Africa. This was followed by a gradual spread of the Southern-Eastern division, culminating perhaps 2000 years ago in the separation of its to branches and the ultimate movement of Southern Mande peoples southeast and westward until Mano and Kpelle, long separated, became once more contiguous.
This reconstruction of Mande prehistory receives striking support from a most unexpected source— dogs. Back in the presumed Niger-Congo homeland—the southern Sudan and northern Uganda of modern times— is found the unique barkless, worried-looking, fleet Basenji, who also appears on ancient Egyptian monuments with the typical bee that compensates for his natural silence. Among the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia, a breed of dogs is found which is so closely identical to the Basenji that it now recognized as the ‘Liberian Basenji’. In all of the Sudan belt of Africa from the Nile Valley to the Liberian forest, the dogs are somewhat similar in appearance, but very obviously mongrelized. It would appear that the Mande peoples originally took their Basenji dogs with them in their westward migration. At that time, the present Sahara desert was capable of sustaining a substantial population, and was presumably the homeland of the Nilo-Saharan peoples. The early Mande moment thus may have been through uninhabited land, and their dogs were spared any cross-breeding. The farthest westward Mande movement—that of the Southwestern group—was virtually complete before contact with dogs of other breeds. With the gradual drying of the Sahara and the southward movement of the Nilo-Saharan peoples, the remaining Mande peoples, as well as later waves of Niger-Congo migration made contact with other people and other dogs. The present canine population of the Liberian forests thus reflects the very early departure of the Mande peoples from their original homeland, and the subsequent early movement of the Southwestern group towards its present location, without contacting substantial number of unrelated people or dogs.
Liberian Basenji
Egyptian Basenji Egyptian Basenji Dog Hieroglyph
. Trade might account for the presence of Basenji dogs in both places. But, from the sense of the article, Welmers claims that speakers of other African languages surrounding the Kpelle have different dogs.
The term for Basenji may be uher. In Egyptian uher also means house, so some people claim the Egyptians placed a dog size after uher to denote the term dog.
Niger-Congo hunters probably early domesticated the dog. Hunters used dogs to catch their prey .
Egyptian Hieroglyph
.
Egyptian term for dog corresponds to many African, and Dravidian terms for dog:
Egptian uher
Azer wulle
Bozo kongoro
Guro bere
Vai wuru, ulu
Bo[Bambara] -ulu
Wassulunka wulu
Konyanka wulu
Malinke wuli, wuru, wulu
Dravidian ori
.
The above data indicates that there is contrast between Paleo-Afican l =/= r. The Egyptian Ř uher # , Azer Ř wulle # and Manding Ř wuru # suggest that the r > l in Paleo-African.
There is also vowel alternation in the terms for dog o =/= u. The predominance of the vowel /u/ in the terms for dog, make it clear that o<u. This evidence suggest that there are two Paleo-African terms for dog: Paleo-African [PA] *uru and *oro.
Futhermore, this comparison of the term for dog within and among Niger-Congo languages and Egyptian supports Welmers view that the dog was domesticated in the Nile Valley before the speakers of these languages separated, and migrated to other parts of Africa.
The key to science, is that control is used to test the cause of a hypothesis, layman rarely use control, they accept a hypothesis gased on belief and biases.
Finally scientists test relationships to determine their validity. Science is concerned only with things that can be tested and observed.
Let's look at Welmers hypothesis. All research begins with a research question.
Research Question: Where did the Niger Congo speakers originate?
Null hypothesis: There is no relationship between the present location of the Niger-Congo speakers and the original homeland of the speakers of these languages.
Result: The Niger Congo speakers probably originated in the Nile Valley because the Kpelle , who speak a Mande language, have the basanji dog, which was the domesticated dog of the Egyptians and other Nile Valley people.
The hypothesis was further supported by a most interesting finding, that was that the basanji dog is not the hunting dog of other ethnic groups inhabiting areas between the Nile Valley and where the Mande speakers live.
Welmers hypothesis was confirmed. To disconfirm this hypothesis you have to present evidence that nullifies the findings of Welmers.
To test Welmers hypothesis, I compared the Egyptian term for dog and the Mande term for dog. The linguistic evidence supports the physical evidence discussed by Welmer. Wm. E. Welmers identified the Niger Congo home land. Welmers in "Niger-Congo Mande", Current trends in Linguistics 7 (1971), pp.113-140,explained that the Niger-Congo homeland was in the vicinity of the upper Nile valley (p.119). He believes that the Westward migration began 5000 years ago.
In support of this theory he discusses the dogs of the Niger-Congo speakers. This is the unique barkless Basenji dogs which live in the Sudan and Uganda today, but were formerly recorded on Egyptian monuments (Wlemers,p.119). According to Welmers the Basanji, is related to the Liberian Basenji breed of the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia. Welmers believes that the Mande took these dogs with them on their migration westward. The Kpelle and Loma speak Mande languages.
He believes that the region was unoccupied when the Mande migrated westward. In support of this theory Welmers' notes that the Liberian Banji dogs ,show no cross-breeding with dogs kept by other African groups in West Africa, and point to the early introduction of this cannine population after the separation of the Mande from the other Niger-Congo speakers in the original upper Nile homeland for this population. As a result, he claims that the Mande migration occured before these groups entered the region.
Linguistic research make it clear that there is a close relationship between the Niger-Congo Superlanguage family and the Nilo-Saharan languages spoken in the Sudan. Heine and Nurse (Eds.), in African languages: An introduction , Cambridge University Press, 2000, discuss the Nilo-Saharan connection. They note that when Westerman (1911) described African languages he used lexical evidence to include the Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo languages into a Superfamily he called "Sudanic" (p.16). Using Morphological and lexical similarities Gregerson (1972) indicated that these languages belonged to a macrophylum he named " Kongo-Saharan" (p.16). Research by Blench (1995) reached the same conclusion, and he named this Superfamily: "Niger-Saharan".
Genetic evidence supports the upper Nile origin for the Niger-Congo speakers. Rosa et al, in Y-Chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau (2007), noted that while most Mande & Balanta carry the E3a-M2 gene, there are a number of Felupe-Djola, Papel, Fulbe and Mande carry the M3b*-M35 gene the same as many people in the Sudan.
In conclusion, Welmers proposed an upper Nile (Sudan-Uganda) homeland for the Niger-Congo speakers. He claims that they remained intact until 5000 years ago. This view is supported by linguistic and genetics evidence. The linguistic evidence makes it clear that the Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo languages are related. The genetic evidence indicates that Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo speakers carry the M3b*-M35 gene, an indicator for the earlier presence of speakers of this language in an original Nile Valley homeland.
In summary Welmer’s makes two key points: 1) the Mande migration began around 3000BC out of the Nile Valley; and 2)Welmers proposed migration from Benin around 1500BC, 1500 years after the initial migration of the Mande from the Nile Valley.
posted
First the founders of the first Dynasty of Egypt came from the south. They originally lived in the highland regions like Tassili before the area became arid.
No one in this discussion disagrees with the fact that the Fula also inhabited this region.
As I have noted in previous post and discussed by Diop in his numerous books, in relation to Egypt three things exist.
First, the original power in Egypt was the Anu. The Anu were conquered by Narmar.
Secondly, the Berbers did not originate in Africa they are the result of the Vandels and populations from Arabia and only recently arrived on the scene.
Thirdly, the civilization of Egypt came from the South.
Let's begin the discussion
A comparison of Egyptian, Niger-Kordofanian-Mande, Elamite,Dravidian and Sumerian indicates that they diverged from a common ancestor. The Dravidian examples discussed below are taken from Tamil. All of these languages share pronouns and demonstrative bases. (Winters 1989a) This is proven by a comparison of three terms: chief, city and black.
TABLE 1 _________________________________________________________________ Language Chief city,village black/burnt Dravidian cira,ca uru kam Elamite salu Sumerian sar ur Manding sa furu kami 'Charcoal' Nubian sirgi amr uru-me Semitic sarr ham Ubaid sar ur Egyptian sr mer kemit 'blackland' Hausa sarki birni Paleo-African *Sar *uru *kam
The above examples from languages spoken by blacks validates Diop's theory that there were cognate black civilizations in Africa and Asia, before the expansion of the Indo-European speaking peoples after 1500 BC. This linguistic data which is outlined in further detail elsewhere (Winters 1985b,1989a) illustrates that a common cultural macrostructure is shared by these speakers, which subsequently evolved along separate lines. Given the genetic unity of these languages we should call this group B(lack) Af(rican), Su(merian), Draa(vidian), (E)lam or Bafsudraalam Superset of languages. This supports Diop's use of the comparative method to illuminate the African past.
Yurco (1989,p.29) also falsely states that the Berber speakers were Libyans. This is false, as proven by Diop (1977). Diop (1977) illustrates that the Berber genealogies place their origin in Saudi Arabia, and point to a very recent settlement (2000 years ago) in the Central Sahara. Diop (1977) believes that the Berbers are the result of the early mixture of Africans and Germanic speaking Vandals. (Diop 1986) This would explain the evident close relationship between the Berber and German languages.
The original inhabitants of the Sahara where the Kemetic civilization originated were Blacks not Berbers or Indo-European speakers. These Blacks formerly lived in the highland regions of the Fezzan and Hoggar until after 4000 BC. This ancient homeland of the Dravidians, Egyptians, Sumerians, Niger-Kordofanian-Mande and Elamite speakers is called the Fertile African Crescent. (Anselin, 1989, p.16; Winters, 1981,1985b,1991). We call these people the Proto-Saharans (Winters 1985b,1991). The generic term for this group is Kushite. This explains the analogy between the Bafsudraalam languages outlined briefly above. These Proto-Saharans were called Ta-Seti and Tehenu by the Egyptians. Farid(1985,p.82) noted that "We can notice that the beginning of the Neolithic stage in Egypt on the edge of the Western Desert corresponds with the expansion of the Saharian Neolithic culture and the growth of its population". (emphasis that of author).
Kemetic (Egyptian) civilization came from the south not the North as alleged by Yurco (1989). Martel (1992) does admit that Kemetic civilization came from the Saharan Highlands:The Mountains of the Moon, but he failed to admit that Diop's (1974) hypothesis that Kemetic civilization and writing came from the south was proven by the excavations at Qustul. (Williams 1987; Anselin 1989)
The inhabitants of ancient Nubia and Kush are called A-Group, C-Group and etc. by archaeologists. The artifacts found in the A-Group royal cemetery of the Nubians in Ta-Seti at Qustul were the founders of Kem. Bruce Williams (1987,p.173) of the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago has made it clear that the Qustul pharaohs are the Egyptian rulers referred to as the "Red Crown Rulers".
There are similarities between Egyptian and Saharan motifs (Farid,1985). It was in the Sahara that we find the first evidence of agriculture, animal domestication and weaving (Farid , 1985, p.82). This highland region is the Kemites "Mountain of the Moons " region, the area from which the civilization and goods of Kem, originated.
The rock art of the Saharan Highlands support the Egyptian traditions that in ancient times they lived in the Mountains of the Moon. The Predynastic Egyptian mobiliar art and the Saharan rock art share many common themes including, characteristic boats (Farid 1985,p. 82), men with feathers on their head (Petrie ,1921,pl. xvlll,fig.74; Raphael, 1947, pl.xxiv, fig.10; Vandier , 1952, p.285, fig. 192), false tail hanging from the waist (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Farid, 1985,p.83; Winkler 1938,I, pl.xxlll) and the phallic sheath (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Winkler , 1938,I , pl.xvlll,xx, xxlll).
Due to the appearance of aridity in the Mountains of the Moon the Proto-Saharans migrated first into Nubia and thence into Kem. The Proto-Saharan origin of the Kemites explain the fact that the Kushites were known for maintaining the most ancient traditions of the Kemites as proven when the XXVth Dynasty or Kushite Dynasty ruled ancient Egypt. Farid (1985, p.85) wrote that "To conclude, it seems that among Predynastic foreign relations, the [Proto-]Saharians were the first to have significant contact with the Nile Valley, and even formed a part of the Predynastic population" (emphasis author).
This means that the Nomes probably represent different "states" incorporated into ancient Egypt. It is quite possible that each nome represented a different ethnic group.
If this is true the Egyptian language was probably a lingua franca used to provide a means of communication for the diverse people who lived in ancient Egypt. This would explain why Egyptian was used to write Kushite text until Egyptians migrated into Meroitic lands once Egypt was under the control of the Romans.
Alain Anselin La Question Peule, makes it clear that the Fula originated in Egypt. He supports this theory with the obvious similarity between the words for cattle and milk shared by the Egyptians, Fula and Dravidians (Tamil). He believes that by the 12 Dynasty of Egypt Fula were settled in Egypt.
The Egyptians had many gods. They had these gods because as new ethnicities formed nomes in Egypt they brought their gods with them.
A good example of this amalgamation of various African ethnicities into Egypt is the followers of the god Ra. Some of the first rulers of Egypt saw Ra as the main god.
Later the Egyptians worshipped Aman/Amun which was a Saharan god. ). By the 2nd millennium BC Kushites at kerma were already worshippers of Amon/Amun and they used a distinctive black-and-red ware (Bonnet 1986; Winters 1985b,1991). Amon, later became a major god of the Egyptians during the 18th Dynasty.
A majority of Fula may have remained nomadic, but settled Fula probaly form a major ethnic group in an Egyptian Nome, as did Wolof and Mande speaking people. This is the best way to explain the close genetic linguistic relationship between these groups.
Granted, some Wolof, Mande and Fula made their way to West Africa, but many speakers of these languages remained in Egypt and made up one of the various nomes associated with Egypt.
DNA can tells us little about this period unless they recover DNA from the people living at that time. DNA from living individuals only tell us abou the contemporary group. Not the original people.
Egypt was a cosmopolitan area inhabited by diverse people who move up the Nile from the south to found the First Dynasty. Since the people of Dynastic Egypt originated in the Sahara and moved from south to north . The archaeological evidence makes it clear that no one originated in Egypt.
Explorer you are so full of yourself that you believe everything you write is true. There is no such thing as a scientific division of Africa the whole enterprise is political.
Here are the regions of Africa:
Explorer grow up. . .
Disgraceful, and they wonder why school systems are in jeopardy in the States, LOL. You are so full of yourself that you cannot distinguish politics and cultism from science. When you've spent all your life lying and misinforming yourself, it becomes hard to distinguish fiction from scientific reality; this is what has become you.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Disgraceful, and they wonder why school systems are in jeopardy in the States, LOL. You are so full of yourself that you cannot distinguish politics and cultism from science. When you've spent all your life lying and misinforming yourself, it becomes hard to distinguish fiction from scientific reality; this is what has become you.
This pathetic idiot, being unable to respond in a cogent fashion to the information presented by Dr. Winters, chooses his only option - he gives us his personality/character analysis of Dr. Winters, who is NOT the topic of this conversation but rather a contributor...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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Amazingly - this discourse is undisturbed by the fact that there are no Dravidians in Africa, and no archeological site which can show that there ever were.
And there are no Berber anywhere but Africa and no archeological site that can show that there ever were.
Willfull genetic illiteracy also comes to your aid, since the fact that the majority of male Berber are of native Haplotype E which originated in Africa 40 thousand years ago, and so cannot come from German Vandals within the last few thousand years.
Nor can ruminations from Diop or anyone else dispute this fact, as they are pre-genetic.
Yet, this is to be completely ignored, by you - as an unpleasant fact, which explodes your fantasies.
Just as the fact that Dravidians consist almost entirely of non African lineages, unlike the Berber, who share lineages with other Africans, too explodes your fantasies, and is too, ignored.
In other words....you've made virtually no progress on this site, in years - misquoting outdated materials out of context, and simply ignoring all informations to the contrary.
quote:This topic began with the purpose of identifying the factors which demonstrated that the Fulani people had, at one time in their history, formed a part of the historical complex which we refer today as Ancient Egypt
^ Dissembling.
The topic actually claims Fulani originated in Ancient Egypt.
What you just claimed above, is different, and might be claimed for Greeks, Jews, and even Arabs.
I noted a month ago, that you keep changing your claims because you realize you can't prove the original claim.
I give you credit for not swearing, but you share blame for the deterioration of your own thread, because you persist in dishonest and disingenuous argumentation.
See you another month....maybe.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:This topic began with the purpose of identifying the factors which demonstrated that the Fulani people had, at one time in their history, formed a part of the historical complex which we refer today as Ancient Egypt
^ Dissembling.
The topic actually claims Fulani originated in Ancient Egypt.
What you just claimed above, is different, and might be claimed for Greeks, Jews, and even Arabs.
I noted a month ago, that you keep changing your claims because you realize you can't prove the original claim.
I give you credit for not swearing, but you share blame for the deterioration of your own thread, because you persist in dishonest and disingenuous argumentation.
See you another month....maybe.
Still having trouble with the 'ol English language I see...
"Topic: The Egyptian Origin of the Fulani"
The definition of the noun "origin" is used as a "cause, basis" and NOT as a "beginning, inception!"
Main Entry: origin Part of Speech: noun Definition:cause, basis
1: ancestry, parentage -- the line of ancestors from whom a person is descended
quote:This topic began with the purpose of identifying the factors which demonstrated that the Fulani people had, at one time in their history, formed a part of the historical complex which we refer today as Ancient Egypt
^ Dissembling.
The topic actually claims Fulani originated in Ancient Egypt.
What you just claimed above, is different, and might be claimed for Greeks, Jews, and even Arabs.
I noted a month ago, that you keep changing your claims because you realize you can't prove the original claim.
I give you credit for not swearing, but you share blame for the deterioration of your own thread, because you persist in dishonest and disingenuous argumentation.
See you another month....maybe.
Still having trouble with the 'ol English language I see...
"Topic: The Egyptian Origin of the Fulani"
The definition of the noun "origin" is used as a "cause, basis" and NOT as a "beginning, inception!"
Main Entry: origin Part of Speech: noun Definition:cause, basis
1: ancestry, parentage -- the line of ancestors from whom a person is descended
Now, will it take another month for you to understand this???
If I am meant to understand the above babblement as anything other than - an even more desparate attempt to distract via dissembling, then yes - it is likely to take many more months.
And, I wouldn't hold my breadth waiting if I were you.
Just like I don't hold my breadth waiting for to cut the phony posturing, and produce the evidence of the "Egyptian Origin" of the Fulani.
Because I know you will never do so.
Because there isn't any.
And this is why I refuse to let you bore me with your babblement via ridiculous claims. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
^ well entertain us some more with your racial-units-are-fundamental-but-fundamental-units-are-not-racial logic again. LOL
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted
rasol, ...are you sure that you're rasol? You certainly don't sound like yourself!
quote:...babblement ...desparate attempt to distract via dissembling...phony posturing...produce evidence(!?) of... your babblement via ridiculous claims...
This sounds more like the anti-Obama 'birthers' who despite being presented with evidence of a birth certificate, an act of congress, clippings from the Honolulu newspapers mentioning his birth there, keep insisting on "where's the evidence?"
It doesn't sound like rasol...
--You mean to tell me that an Arab-Egyptian, whose presence in Egypt dates back to c600 AD or a Greek of Alexandria whose ancestors in Egypt predates even that of the Arab cannot claim an Egyptian origin???
No one would suggest that the Greek or Arab citizen of Egypt were originally from that country, in fact, as Dr. Winters correctly pointed out, no one is originally from Egypt. But it is their country of origin.
If you are, indeed, rasol then I know that you know what I'm talking about...
--and the others here have presented countless evidence, 'birth certificates' demonstrating the Fulani's presence in Ancient Egypt. In fact, I opened this topic by presenting two illustrations of evidence of this presence:
1) Now look at the following quote, one that places the origin of the Fulani safely in the 'upper Nile region,' which ignores the historical reality that the Fulani were Egyptian nationals prior to their emigration into the upper Nile region,
quote: Fulani history Some historians believe the Fulani emerged from a prehistoric pastoral group that originated in the upper Nile region around 3500 B.C. As the climate of the Sahara grew increasingly harsh, population pressures drove them to migrate slowly west and south in search of better grazing lands. By the eleventh century the Fulani emerged as a distinct people group in the Sénégambia Valley. Over the next 400 years they journeyed back east, but south of the Sahara, which had become an inhospitable desert. Traditionally most Fulani are shepherds or cattle herders, but over time some settled down and, by the nineteenth century, had established a series of kingdoms between Sénégal and Cameroon. The Fulani have myths about how the nomads and settled rulers emerged...
2) ...for starters here's some linguistic data comparing Fulani / Mdu Ntr...
I - mi / ni you - on / un we - en / un they - be / bu (people) to be bad - bonude / boone bad - boni / bon death; to die - maayde;maayude / maati, moute, moout, mouti last year - rawanen / snouf; ronpe eye - yitere / eirti blessing - barka / baraka cow - nagge / naga father - baaba / baba ... In fact, none of us here, who agree with scholars like Diop, etc. have ever merely state in an 'imperial' manner that 'the Fulani are from Ancient Egypt!' - we constantly and consistently have provided documentation supporting the Egyptian origin of the Fulani.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: What we do know is that the Fulani language is related to 12th Dynasty Egyptian and that it was during this period that Zebu cattle came to Egypt. This makes it clear that Fulani probably had humped cattle thousands of years before they migrated into West Africa from the East.
.
Interesting! Clyde, can you please shed some more light (evidence) on how the Fulani language is related to 12th Dynasty Egyptian?
Posts: 620 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:we constantly and consistently have provided documentation supporting the Egyptian origin of the Fulani.
^ In this thread you provide only empty rhetoric and attempted distractions from your lack of evidence, and nothing more.
And you never will provide anything of substance, which is why I won't chase you.
Your word lists are like something Winters would do, to "prove" Mandingo origins of Mandarin Chinese.
They only "evidence" your lack of evidence.
Its all down to population and geography rasol. The Fulani are the largest nomadic group in Africa. The land mass they occupy stretch from the Atlantic in West Africa all the way to central and east Africa. You get the picture rasol?
Now ask yourself, if the ancient Egyptians were made up of immigrants and were driven out by invading forces and wars further down deep into Africa. Given the huge population of the Fulani and the land mass they occupy, if one were to look for the ancient Egyptians in Africa who would be the best candidate?
I hope you getting my point. Given this information, it would be ridiculous to suggest that immigrants from other parts of Africa made up ancient Egypt but the Fulani were not present. Given their size, and the huge size of Africa they occupy, the Fulani would have been the largest ethnic group that made up ancient Egypt.
Here is a tip. Next time you look at the images of ancient Egyptians, forget about comparing their features to Ethiopians and Somali but rather compare them to Fulani features and see how closely they match.
Posts: 620 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2009
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The Fulani are a people group in several regions of Africa, whose distinctive physical features are similar to people in Egypt, northern Sudan, and Ethiopia. Their tall, lean bodies, light skin, wavy hair, and thin noses and lips contrast starkly to other African tribal groups surrounding them.
Location Nearly 20 million Fulani are spread across 19 African countries in an area stretching from the shores of Sénégal to the borders of Ethiopia
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Why is this even an issue when the Fulani have the same word for farming as the ancient Egyptians? You don't by chance, by way of osmosis, created the same tools and have the same word for an agricultural process.
Abstract : — mr , A FARMING INSTRUMENT THROUGH TIME AND SPACE — In Ancient Egypt, "mr", denoted a large or small hoe. In contemporary Black Africa, similarly shaped hoes are used for the same agricultural tasks as in Ancient Egypt. Also, the terminology used for designating agricultural space and land ownership by Fulaani of the Senegal river region and the Mandingo of Casamance is the same as in Ancient Egypt. These are only several of numerous examples (cf. Ankh n°1)which indicate the deep cultural unity connecting the ancient Egyptians with present day Negro Africans. (This article is in French however)
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
And you still don't. Fulani do not have wavy hair. The hair is nappy and well tended, constantly plaited or braided, undone, oiled, then plaited or braided again. This constant over attention to grooming makes a low frequency winding to the nap in comparison to other textures of nappy hair that literally coils or whose winding is a higher frequency.
Nose and lips are rather medium in measurement, not thin.
Skin varies from dark chocolate to caramel, it is not uniformily light but general falls into the red category of the internal African reckoning of red and black.
The majority of the 13 million Fulani are settled, some are even farmers! One cannot extrapolate WoDaabe leanings onto the entire Fulani people.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Didn't know this. . . .
The Fulani are a people group in several regions of Africa, whose distinctive physical features are similar to people in Egypt, northern Sudan, and Ethiopia. Their tall, lean bodies, light skin, wavy hair, and thin noses and lips contrast starkly to other African tribal groups surrounding them.
Location Nearly 20 million Fulani are spread across 19 African countries in an area stretching from the shores of Sénégal to the borders of Ethiopia
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: And you still don't. Fulani do not have wavy hair. The hair is nappy and well tended, constantly plaited or braided, undone, oiled, then plaited or braided again. This constant over attention to grooming makes a low frequency winding to the nap in comparison to other textures of nappy hair that literally coils or whose winding is a higher frequency.
Oh please spare us your ignorance. Did you really get what xyyman said. In case you missed it, here it is again; "The Fulani are a people group in several regions of Africa, whose distinctive physical features are similar to people in Egypt, northern Sudan, and Ethiopia."
In case you do not understand the underlying implication of that statement it means the Fulani features come in different flavors based on which part of Africa you find them.
In case you still don't get it, the bottom line is, based on their geographical location in Africa, there are Fulani that look like pale skin Ethiopians with soft wavy hair while at the same time you have Fulani that look like your everyday negro with nappy hair. Fulani are one people but come in different flavors.
Posts: 620 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
The answer to the mystery of the race of the ancient Egyptians. Behold the Fulani people in whom the Negro, the Somalid and the Arab are all reflected. In the Fulani you would understand why images of ancient Egyptians came in many flavors.
posted
Wish I could travel throughout the continent to see these peoples first hand. Not only the Fulani.
Great video Energy.
@ Altk. That was from Encyclopedia Britannica. They tend to be less bias than NG or other Encyclopedias.
BTW - I assume it is the language AND culture that group these people?
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Energy: The answer to the mystery of the race of the ancient Egyptians. Behold the Fulani people in whom the Negro, the Somalid and the Arab are all reflected. In the Fulani you would understand why images of ancient Egyptians came in many flavors.
There is no "mystery" to the race of the ancient Egyptians. The original stock were tropically adapted indigenous Africans that came from south of the Sahara. The later coming of the Hyskos, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, etc would alter this but the fundamental continuity remained. That is why more stable limb proportions still show the Egyptians cluster closer to tropical African groups than to Europeans or Middle Easterners.
------------------------------------------------------- As for the Fulani, most of their genes cluster with West African groups. End of story.
Tissue Antigens. 2001 Feb;57(2):128-37. Links HLA class I in three West African ethnic groups: genetic distances from sub-Saharan and Caucasoid populations.Modiano D, Luoni G, Petrarca V, Sodiomon Sirima B, De Luca M, Simporé J, Coluzzi M, Bodmer JG, Modiano G.
"Fulani of Burkina Faso (West Africa) are a particularly interesting ethnic group because of their lower susceptibility to Plasmodium falciparum malaria as compared to sympatric populations, Mossi and Rimaibé. Moreover, the occurrence of a Caucasoid component in their genetic make-up has been suggested on the basis of their physical traits and cultural traditions even though this view was not supported by genetic studies... Our study does not suggest the involvement of HLA I in the higher resistance to malaria of Fulani, and confirms a low, if any, Caucasoid component in their gene pool. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan: As for the Fulani, most of their genes cluster with West African groups. End of story.
You make a very bold statement in what I have just quoted zarahan. What evidence do you have to show or prove that MOST Fulani genes cluster with West African groups and no one else, I mean that is what, 'end of story' translates as? There are many Fulani that look completely like Arabs in North Africa, just as there are Fulani that look like the AFAR people of Ethiopia so for you to say their genes MOSTLY cluster with Negroes in West Africa, end of story, fly in the face of the evidence on the ground and you need to prove it.
Posts: 620 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
There is no need to pretend. No one is being fooled. I just gave you a reference. Here it is again:
Tissue Antigens. 2001 Feb;57(2):128-37. Links HLA class I in three West African ethnic groups: genetic distances from sub-Saharan and Caucasoid populations.Modiano D, Luoni G, Petrarca V, Sodiomon Sirima B, De Luca M, Simporé J, Coluzzi M, Bodmer JG, Modiano G.
"Fulani of Burkina Faso (West Africa) are a particularly interesting ethnic group because of their lower susceptibility to Plasmodium falciparum malaria as compared to sympatric populations, Mossi and Rimaibé. Moreover, the occurrence of a Caucasoid component in their genetic make-up has been suggested on the basis of their physical traits and cultural traditions even though this view was not supported by genetic studies... Our study does not suggest the involvement of HLA I in the higher resistance to malaria of Fulani, and confirms a low, if any, Caucasoid component in their gene pool.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan: There is no need to pretend. No one is being fooled. I just gave you a reference. Here it is again:
Tissue Antigens. 2001 Feb;57(2):128-37. Links HLA class I in three West African ethnic groups: genetic distances from sub-Saharan and Caucasoid populations.Modiano D, Luoni G, Petrarca V, Sodiomon Sirima B, De Luca M, Simporé J, Coluzzi M, Bodmer JG, Modiano G.
"Fulani of Burkina Faso (West Africa) are a particularly interesting ethnic group because of their lower susceptibility to Plasmodium falciparum malaria as compared to sympatric populations, Mossi and Rimaibé. Moreover, the occurrence of a Caucasoid component in their genetic make-up has been suggested on the basis of their physical traits and cultural traditions even though this view was not supported by genetic studies... Our study does not suggest the involvement of HLA I in the higher resistance to malaria of Fulani, and confirms a low, if any, Caucasoid component in their gene pool.
LOL! In other words you can't back up what you said huh?
If you have the information, just cut and paste it, it is that simple. Alternatively, if its in a book, you scan the relevant info onto you computer and link to it. Why would you direct someone to a link when you can simply cut, paste and highlight the relevant points? By directing me to a link you just admitted you have NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!
To illustrate the point, when I wanted to show how diverse the looks of the Fulani are, I got a video of images of Fulani people to prove it. So If you wanna tell me, quote; "the Fulani, genes cluster ONLY with West African groups. End of story." You need to prove that claim. Alternatively you can admit you made a mistake and we would leave it at that.
PS. I hope you noticed that the linked information you posted about the Fulani of Burkina Faso already shoots your claim into shreds. I mean, how can the genes of the Fulani only cluster with West Africans and have a Caucasoid (European) component at the same time?
Posts: 620 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2009
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What you fail to understand is that no matter what Fulani "Look" like, They are almost the most "West" African ethnic group in West Africa.
For instances, The Nigerian Fulani have E3a at 100%.
What relevance has E3a got to do with who the Fulani are and how far spread afield they are in Africa? Unless you wanna say only the Fulani carry E3a and no one else does. That would be absurd.
Those Genetic markers are only relevant when you are talking to non-Africans, for example, Eurocentrics and white people and want to prove to them ancient Egyptians were black but the same information becomes completely USELESS when talking to continental Africans like me who have no need to prove my identity.
quote: Don't be fooled into thinking you can tell where a person is from simply by looking at the person.
CORRECT! Please tell that to alTakruri and not me. The trend this debate has taken is because alTakruri limited the Fulani people to Negroes with nappy hair. This is completely false and what I am doing is show how wrong he is.
alTakruri would fool others with what he said but I was born and bred in West Africa, so I know how we look and how diverse we are. What alTakruri said about the Fulani is completely false and misleading. We have Fulani in Africa that look Negro, but at the same time, we have Fulani in Africa that have Arab features as well as we have Fulani that have Somali/Ethiopian features. Therefore to tell a continental African like me, that Fulani is only limited to Negroes in West Africa is utterly preposterous!
quote: Greeks do not look like Africans yet they have E3b at over 25%.
KING, this is a huge subject of discussion on its own. We have tradition and cultural beliefs in West Africa that agree with those of Greece, so I can assure you it is not only the genetic marker but our beliefs do go hand in hand as well.
If you care to start a thread on this subject, I would be happy to discuss it with you. However, this discussion is about Fulani origins in ancient Egypt so a discussion on the link between Greeks and Africans would be wasted on this thread.
quote: Zarahan is just showing you the FACTS.
WRONG! I have asked Zarahan to substantiate his claims whereby he limits the Fulani to West Africa. This claim of his, flies in the face of the evidence on the ground. The Fualni occupy more than 17 countries in Africa, and some of these countries lie outside West Africa, so for someone to limit Fulani to West Africa and nowhere else, that person has to prove how they came to such a conclusion that disagrees with the geographical information. So far Zarahan is struggling, and I am completely confident at the end of the day, he would fail miserably.
Posts: 620 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2009
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The case is closed. Fulani are West Africans not East Africans no matter how people dream of being from the East, Fulani are from the West.
Peace
KING you really need to read your own link and get the facts right before directing people to it. As it is, your own source says, 'you are mistaken.' Below is information I culled from your own link.
From your own source it says and I quote; "Several observations point to eastern Africa as the homeland for haplogroup E3b" Now where does that leave your bold claim that the Fulani are E3b and it originates in West Africa? Your own source says EAST AFRICA and not West Africa.
------------------------------------------------- On the basis of the previously published phylogeny (Y Chromosome Consortium 2002; Jobling and Tyler-Smith 2003), the mutations M2/P1/M180, on the one hand, and M35/M215, on the other, further subdivide E3 in two monophyletic haplogroups: E3a and E3b. Both haplogroups are frequent in Africa (Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002), although, to date, only E3b has also been observed in Europe.
The three main subclades of haplogroup E3b (E-M78, E-M81, and E-M34) and the paragroup E-M35* ARE NOT homogeneously distributed on the African continent: E-M78
Several observations point to eastern Africa as the homeland for haplogroup E3b—that is, it had (1) the highest number of different E3b cladesPosts: 620 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2009
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What you should of got from the study is NOT about E3b.
It's about E3a. E3a is mostly regarded as a West African genetic marker and that is what Fulanis in All countries they are a part of have.
I apologize if you may have mistaken my post as saying that Fulanis have E3b. They have barely any E3b which would of linked them to of been from East Africa.
Let me try and clear things up for you.
Most Africans belong to the PN2 clade of hap groups in Africa. The main lineages in this group are E1b1a(E3a) and E1b1b(E3b). E3b is regarded as an East African marker since that is where it has the highest percentage. This lineage is how we can know people like the Tuareg, who live in West Africa, are really originally from the East. E3a is how we know that the Fualanis, who regardeless of how they "look" have there origin in the West. Why I posted the study for you is so you can see just how high the percentage that the Fulanis have E3a at compared to other west Africans. Now since it seems you may have a hard time understanding the Table I told you to go check out I will post the stats you should take care of knowing:
West Africans E3a%:
Mandenka from Senegal 93.8 Songhai from Niger 80.0 Tuareg from Niger 63.6 Fulbe from Niger 71.4 Fulbe from Nigeria 100.0 Hausa from Nigeria 40.0 Yoruba from Nigeria 90.5
As we can see from this grouping, The Fulanis have E3a at a higher percent then the other groups in West Africa.
So no matter how "Arab" a fulanis looks, They have no Origins in East Africa. I understand where you are coming from when you state that Fulanis are found in countries in East Africa. BUT even these fulanis have markers that link them to groups in West Africa. The only west African group with origins in the East are really only the Tuareg.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
This trying to get my hands around this . . .logic.
E3a is found as much as 40% in East and north east Africa. So why limit it as an West African marker. Yeah, it looks like most West Africans are E3a but a substantial amount of East and North East Africans are also. . . .E3a.
In addition E3a ORIGINATED in East Africa.
It is logical to assume that East Africans . . including AE, carry E3a.
Has ANY markers been IDed in AE????
E3a and E3b have been co-existing in East Africa since the mutation . . .what. . .20kya.
What evidence is there that E3a is NOT found in AE?
As result why rule out the Fulanis or any other indigenous Africans from AE. Even hg-A is found as much as 30% in Sudan.
And you can't get more African than that(hg-A)
quote:Originally posted by KING: Energy
Fulani in Niger have E3a at 71% and the Fulani in Nigeria have it at 100%.
.BUT even these fulanis have markers that link them to groups in West Africa. - THIS DOESN"T MAKE SENSE!!! DID THEY MIGRATE EAST.
The case is closed. . . . , Fulani are from the West. - MORE BS BY KING??
Peace
I posed this question to Rasol one time. . . do we know the migration patterns of Ancient Africans??
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
This logic doesn't hold up in regards to known historical possibilities. If the Bantu speaking people "started" in Cameroon/Nigeria, yet the majority of Bantu speakers are in central, south and east Africa. By King's logic, because the Bantus have the highest number of speakers in Central, East and South East Africa, that that is where they originated from and have no ties to Cameroon/Nigeria.
Fulani is a federation of people who now speak the same language. All large groups of people are really just confederations. This is a practice all across the continent that people fail to recognize. When Tshaka Zulu was building his empire, anyone who wanted to be Zulu was Zulu. This is how a small group of people who migrated from the Sudan became the dominant cultural group in South Africa.
It would be no different for Fulani or Yoruba. They are all a breed of various African groups who decided to come together and be Fulani and Yoruba respectively. This is the case with the Ancient Egyptians. To tell you the truth, there was no such thing as an Egyptian ethnic group. The political state encompassed many many different ethnic groups who retained their respective cultures throughout the political period.
So what you may have here with the Fulani is the same thing that happened to the Zulu which explains the diversity in phenotypes among the Fulani: they are actually different people who by confederacy speak the same language.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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Yes some groups in west Africa may have come from the East of Africa like the Tuareg, but I don't think trying to make out like ALL or even most West Africans have there Origins in AE is something that should be championed.
Also as for e3a, Most of that probably comes from the Bantu migration.
As for E3a being found in AE....Probably. But we have to wait until they decide to show us just what markers the AE had.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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