quote:

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"[...]"[...] a multivariate craniometric analysis of 384 world populations is presented. It shows that the Egyptian population presented a great variability, and confirms the general opinion on the polymorphism and the geographical gradient concerning the shape of the skull: the populations of Lower Egypt are very close to those of the Maghreb, and those of Upper Egypt resemble those of Nubia, the latter being close, but not identical, to those of Sub-Saharan Africa.

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quote:

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The first king of the XVIIIth dynasty, Ahmosis, had married his sister, Ahmes-Nofertari, described as Ethiopian , who was then regent, then goddess; their son Amenophis I conquered Ethiopia. We have the mummy of Nofertari: curly hair, small mouth, thin lips, straight and slightly lowered nose slightly lowered, short without being flat with wide wings, of dimensions 47 x33 mm (CHANTRE 1904, p.71). [...] The queen of the reformer Tiyi, wife of Akhenaten, of Amenophis is of commoner and Nubian origin (see her famous effigy in the Egyptian Museum of Berlin, miscegenation N°211834), which proves that miscegenation was widespread.

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One can sometimes distinguish in places the natural color of the skin, white for example in Ramses II and an anonymous princely mummy, according to FOUQUET (1886) who opened their sarcophagus. However, most of the mummies have a charred black appearance; this color comes either from a process of slow organic combustion, or from a bitumen that hinders their examination with the naked eye and that probably came from Mesopotamia and Palestine (CONNAN 1991), just as embalming resins, reserved for the wealthy, came from Lebanon (LÉCA1976). The blackening effect of "mineral oil" is mentioned in a papyrus from the Roman period (N°AE/N5158 in the Louvre) cited by Connan.

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quote:

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Moreover, as SZABO (1975) points out, "light microscopy sections from a dark Mediterranean skin can be very similar to those from a Negroid skin " 1 , so it will be necessary to use finer techniques, like electron microscopy, and also examine the oral mucosa.

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quote:

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The hair, generally "abundant and reddish" (CHANTRE 1904), also provides usable information: we do not find frizzy hair on the Egyptian mummies, which excludes any relationship with the populations of Central and West Africa, with the exception of the Tédas or Toubous of the Peuls of Tibesti nomads. The hair of the mummies is generally smooth or wavy (CHAMLA 1967, RABINOMASSA dyed with henna 1969, HRDY as 1978), that is often enough done still in North Africa. [...] A curl taken from their daughter Tiyi and deposited in the tomb of Tutankhamun, is qualified as auburn by Mrs DESROCHESNOBLECOURT (1966 p.65). By the technique of the trichometrogram of Sergi but on twelve subjects only, RABINO-MASSA & CHIARELLI (1972) showed that the section their sample of the hair was was elliptical indeed and that cymotriche (wavy) and not lissotriche (smooth) as in Europe nor ulotriche (thick) as in so-called Black Africa.

---

Very interesting chart which has a large panel of samples including many AEs and Maghrebis :




Gizeh E serie is literally in the european cluster and it's the largest sample (more than 800 skulls) !


-----------------------------------------------------------


CONTINUITY BETWEEN ANCIENT AND MODERN EGYPTIANS AS I'VE POINTED OUT MANY TIMES :

quote:

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The morphological analysis carried out on extinct populations can also be done on the living. A data bank even more important than the one used for the skulls, has been established on 1300 peoples of the world. The results, too long to detail here, show that the position of contemporary Egypt, in relation to neighboring populations, is similar to that of ancient Egypt. There are therefore good reasons to believe that the fellah of the twentieth century is the direct descendant of the one whose representations adorn the tombs of the pharaohs, as thought by ancient authors (CHANTRE 1904, SMITH 1923).

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paper : https://www.persee.fr/doc/arnil_1161-0492_1992_num_2_1_1166
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ *yawn* ALL of what is presented above has been discussed before.

Really, I suggest you do a search on the archives for what you brought up in this thread.

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

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"[...]"[...] a multivariate craniometric analysis of 384 world populations is presented. It shows that the Egyptian population presented a great variability, and confirms the general opinion on the polymorphism and the geographical gradient concerning the shape of the skull: the populations of Lower Egypt are very close to those of the Maghreb, and those of Upper Egypt resemble those of Nubia, the latter being close, but not identical, to those of Sub-Saharan Africa.

---

---

quote:

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Mixed unions in the XVIIIth dynasty (which again confirms what I thought):

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quote:

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The first king of the XVIIIth dynasty, Ahmosis, had married his sister, Ahmes-Nofertari, described as Ethiopian , who was then regent, then goddess; their son Amenophis I conquered Ethiopia. We have the mummy of Nofertari: curly hair, small mouth, thin lips, straight and slightly lowered nose slightly lowered, short without being flat with wide wings, of dimensions 47 x33 mm (CHANTRE 1904, p.71). [...] The queen of the reformer Tiyi, wife of Akhenaten, of Amenophis is of commoner and Nubian origin (see her famous effigy in the Egyptian Museum of Berlin, miscegenation N°211834), which proves that miscegenation was widespread.

---

quote:

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Ramses II was white skinned:

quote:

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One can sometimes distinguish in places the natural color of the skin, white for example in Ramses II and an anonymous princely mummy, according to FOUQUET (1886) who opened their sarcophagus. However, most of the mummies have a charred black appearance; this color comes either from a process of slow organic combustion, or from a bitumen that hinders their examination with the naked eye and that probably came from Mesopotamia and Palestine (CONNAN 1991), just as embalming resins, reserved for the wealthy, came from Lebanon (LÉCA1976). The blackening effect of "mineral oil" is mentioned in a papyrus from the Roman period (N°AE/N5158 in the Louvre) cited by Connan.

---

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quote:

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NOW DJEHUTI PAY ATTENTION TO THIS WHICH IS SOMETHING I ALREADY TOLD YOU BEFORE WHEN YOU WERE SPAMMING THAT SKIN COLOR PAPER FROM INDIVIDUALS IN THEBES:

quote:

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Moreover, as SZABO (1975) points out, "light microscopy sections from a dark Mediterranean skin can be very similar to those from a Negroid skin " 1 , so it will be necessary to use finer techniques, like electron microscopy, and also examine the oral mucosa.

---

---

quote:

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No frizzy/kinky/afro hair in any egyptian mummy :

quote:

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The hair, generally "abundant and reddish" (CHANTRE 1904), also provides usable information: we do not find frizzy hair on the Egyptian mummies, which excludes any relationship with the populations of Central and West Africa, with the exception of the Tédas or Toubous of the Peuls of Tibesti nomads. The hair of the mummies is generally smooth or wavy (CHAMLA 1967, RABINOMASSA dyed with henna 1969, HRDY as 1978), that is often enough done still in North Africa. [...] A curl taken from their daughter Tiyi and deposited in the tomb of Tutankhamun, is qualified as auburn by Mrs DESROCHESNOBLECOURT (1966 p.65). By the technique of the trichometrogram of Sergi but on twelve subjects only, RABINO-MASSA & CHIARELLI (1972) showed that the section their sample of the hair was was elliptical indeed and that cymotriche (wavy) and not lissotriche (smooth) as in Europe nor ulotriche (thick) as in so-called Black Africa.

---

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LOL I never said Egyptians had kinky hair like West and Central Africans! Also, curly hair can suffice to grow Afros, and your very source even makes the exception of Tedas and Peuls (Fulani) as Sub-Saharans that have loose hair that's not kinky. North Sudanse, Ethiopians, and Somalis also have loose wavy hair. Again such hair does NOT mean 'caucasoid' or 'Eurasian'.

All of this was discussed here.

In fact, the best way to assess populations affinities via hair is using trichometric measurements of the hair shaft which was traditionally used by physical anthropologists to assess 'race'. You can read this thread here to see the trichometric data and I warn you, it's not to your liking! LOL

[

You posted the above craniometric graph before. Again, notice how Nilotes cluster away from other Sub-Saharan Africans and how Nubians (and Indians who cluster right beside) are intermediate between Nilotes and Upper Egyptians.

quote:

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Very interesting chart which have a large panel of samples including many AEs and Maghrebis :

---

quote:

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Gizeh E serie is literally in the european cluster and it's the largest sample (more than 800 skulls)!

---

quote:

---

CONTINUITY BETWEEN ANCIENT AND MODERN EGYPTIANS AS I'VE POINTED OUT MANY TIMES:

quote:

---

The morphological analysis carried out on extinct populations can also be done on the living. A data bank even more important than the one used for the skulls, has been established on 1300 peoples of the world. The results, too long to detail here, show that the position of contemporary Egypt, in relation to neighboring populations, is similar to that of ancient Egypt. There are therefore good reasons to believe that the fellah of the twentieth century is the direct descendant of the one whose representations adorn the tombs of the pharaohs, as thought by ancient authors (CHANTRE 1904, SMITH 1923).

---

---

quote:

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paper : https://www.persee.fr/doc/arnil_1161-0492_1992_num_2_1_1166

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ *yawn* ALL of what is presented above has been discussed before.

Really, I suggest you do a search on the archives for what you brought up in this thread.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti: Yes, and Keita et al. and others have already confirmed the results above. Your point?

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Originally posted by Djehuti: Actually such mixed unions have been going on since the 1st dynasty. Go and do a search on the craniometric trend of Early Dynastic royals all showing Nubian affinities.

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Originally posted by Djehuti: And pray tell, what evidence is there that Ahmose-Nefertari was "Ethiopian" or that Tiye whose family hails from Akhmim Upper Egypt was "Nubian". It seems these French authors are making assumptions based on artwork alone, by the way wasn't it YOU who said the bust of Tiye is aged wood and the dark chocolate complexion wasn't original?! LOL

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quote:

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"After a long period of depopulation which affected it during a millennium, Lower Nubia is occupied at the beginning of our era by populations of a very different physiognomy from those of the pharaonic group, with negroid characters already affirmed as we have underlined. There is no doubt that the introduction of the black element in Lower Nubia comes especially from this period and is amplified in the passage from the Meroitic culture to that of group X. We can follow its progression by the increasing differences in CH2 and by the increase in variability that mainly affects the "negroid characters" (Billy, 1975). Finally, it should be noted that the upward current of black infiltration does not reach Upper Egypt, since the samples from this same period at Denderah (D', D") or Manfalut (MA) do not show any differences with respect to the Egyptian-Nubian population background established since the beginning of the dynastic era. "

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quote:

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More new is the fact, already suspected in Soleb by G. Billy and M.C.Chamla (1981), that in Nubia, the nasal index, identical to the European values at the origin, increases considerably then to join the figures observed in central Africa; at the same time, the dental anthropologists (Greene 1972, 1981; Carlson and Van Gerven 1979; Small 1981; Calcagno 1986) observe a morphological reduction of the dentition. This phenomenon of nasal enlargement could not, in Nubia, be linked to the humidification of the climate since it was, on the contrary, aridified, and thus comes from genetic exchanges, in the sense of a greater contribution from Black Africa; it is up to archaeology to link this evolution with cultural mutations.

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Originally posted by Djehuti: Bitumen staining aside, how could one know what the original complexion of mummy over a thousand years old without a melanin dosage test or a genetic test of skin color alleles? Sounds like wishful thinking.

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Originally posted by Djehuti: Again, light microscopy is not as accurate as melanin dosage or skin color allele testing. Also, you do realize that the description of "dark Mediterranean" has also been applied to Sub-Saharans like Nubians and Ethiopians, do you?! LOL

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Originally posted by Djehuti: LOL I never said Egyptians had kinky hair like West and Central Africans! Also, curly hair can suffice to grow Afros, and your very source even makes the exception of Tedas and Peuls (Fulani) as Sub-Saharans that have loose hair that's not kinky. North Sudanse, Ethiopians, and Somalis also have loose wavy hair. Again such hair does NOT mean 'caucasoid' or 'Eurasian'.

All of this was discussed here.

In fact, the best way to assess populations affinities via hair is using trichometric measurements of the hair shaft which was traditionally used by physical anthropologists to assess 'race'. You can read this thread here to see the trichometric data and I warn you, it's not to your liking! LOL

---

quote:

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Interestingly, different genes have been associated with straight hair in Europeans and East Asians, suggesting that this trait evolved independently at least twice. The most robust associations for straight hair have implicated Trichohyalin (TCHH, a structural hair protein) in Europeans14,15, and EDAR (a cell signalling receptor) in East Asians16, illustrating the range of cellular mechanisms that can impact on hair shape.

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Recent studies have identified Asian-specific alleles of the EDAR and FGFR2 genes that are associated with thick, straight hair, suggesting that these variants arose after the divergence of Asians and Europeans .3, [...] The T allele at rs11803731 is the derived state and shows a striking geographic specificity to Europe and western-central Asia, reaching its highest frequency in Northern Europeans (Figure 1E), suggesting that the variant arose somewhere in this broad region.

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Common Variants in the Trichohyalin Gene Are Associated with Straight Hair in Europeans, 2009

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

You posted the above craniometric graph before. Again, notice how Nilotes cluster away from other Sub-Saharan Africans and how Nubians (and Indians who cluster right beside) are intermediate between Nilotes and Upper Egyptians.

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Originally posted by Djehuti: Not that interesting. Again note how Egyptians cluster close with their Nubian neighbors (as well as South Indians). Again Keita and others have demonstrated the same. Of course craniometrics are not as accurate in assessing populations relations as nonmetrics.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti: Yeah and here is what an anthropologist had to say about the 26th - 30th dynasty remains known as Gizeh (E series):
"Howells data set E series....CANNOT BE CONSIDERED to be a typical Egyptian series,"--Dr. Sonia Zakrzewski (2003)

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Originally posted by Djehuti: Of course there's population continuity, who do you think all those Baladi (black natives) come from??

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The paper highlight continuity with all modern egyptians not only with your cherrypicked "baladi" who are not black btw.

Modern egyptians are the closest thing to ancient egyptians :






and certainly not these clowns XDDDD :




 

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Posted by sudanese (Member # 15779) on :
 
Exactly just how close do ancient Upper Egyptians cluster with Lower Nubians? The Lower Nubians of the Kulubnarti paper were around 40% SSA, so how did the Upper Egyptians form a cluster with them if Antalas is saying that this was just the result of admixture in the 18th Dynasty?

Shouldn't Upper Egyptians still align more closely with Lower Egyptians and Maghrebis if the Eurasian component in the Lower Nubians is the only thing that intimates them with Upper Egyptians?

Who plots closer to ancient Upper Egyptians... is it the almost entirely Eurasian Berbers or is it the Eurasian shifted (around 60%) Lower Nubians?
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

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Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Exactly just how close do ancient Upper Egyptians cluster with Lower Nubians? The Lower Nubians of the Kulubnarti paper were around 40% SSA, so how did the Upper Egyptians form a cluster with them if Antalas is saying that this was just the result of admixture in the 18th Dynasty?

Shouldn't Upper Egyptians still align more closely with Lower Egyptians and Maghrebis if the Eurasian component in the Lower Nubians is the only thing that intimates them with Upper Egyptians?

Who plots closer to ancient Upper Egyptians... is it the almost entirely Eurasian Berbers or is it the Eurasian shifted (around 60%) Lower Nubians?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Exactly just how close do ancient Upper Egyptians cluster with Lower Nubians? The Lower Nubians of the Kulubnarti paper were around 40% SSA, so how did the Upper Egyptians form a cluster with them if Antalas is saying that this was just the result of admixture in the 18th Dynasty?

Shouldn't Upper Egyptians still align more closely with Lower Egyptians and Maghrebis if the Eurasian component in the Lower Nubians is the only thing that intimates them with Upper Egyptians?

Who plots closer to ancient Upper Egyptians... is it the almost entirely Eurasian Berbers or is it the Eurasian shifted (around 60%) Lower Nubians?

---

I never implied that an admixture event occured during the 18th dynasty ; I was strictly talking about the members of this dynasty not the whole of Egypt even though there are evidence of nubian settlements during that time period.

The kulubnarti samples are medieval and the SSA geneflow occured in the region way before this. So if early medieval lower nubians were only 40% SSA after the SSA geneflow detected during the meroitic period then this implies lower nubians had much less before that period.

As for clustering, pay attention to what I post Egypt already showed variation as today so some series appear close to the maghreb, europe, middle east or lower nubia but never with west,central or south africa.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Exactly just how close do ancient Upper Egyptians cluster with Lower Nubians? The Lower Nubians of the Kulubnarti paper were around 40% SSA, so how did the Upper Egyptians form a cluster with them if Antalas is saying that this was just the result of admixture in the 18th Dynasty?

Shouldn't Upper Egyptians still align more closely with Lower Egyptians and Maghrebis if the Eurasian component in the Lower Nubians is the only thing that intimates them with Upper Egyptians?

Who plots closer to ancient Upper Egyptians... is it the almost entirely Eurasian Berbers or is it the Eurasian shifted (around 60%) Lower Nubians?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
The Kulubnarti paper seems to point to mostly female mediated Eurasian introgression into Lower Nubia rather than the other way round.

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quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese: What evidence (from modern scholarship) is there to suggest that Lower Nubians were more Eurasian prior to the Meroitic period?

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"After a long period of depopulation which affected it during a millennium, Lower Nubia is occupied at the beginning of our era by populations of a very different physiognomy from those of the pharaonic group, with negroid characters already affirmed as we have underlined. There is no doubt that the introduction of the black element in Lower Nubia comes especially from this period and is amplified in the passage from the Meroitic culture to that of group X. We can follow its progression by the increasing differences in CH2 and by the increase in variability that mainly affects the "negroid characters" (Billy, 1975). Finally, it should be noted that the upward current of black infiltration does not reach Upper Egypt, since the samples from this same period at Denderah (D', D") or Manfalut (MA) do not show any differences with respect to the Egyptian-Nubian population background established since the beginning of the dynastic era. "

---

quote:

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More new is the fact, already suspected in Soleb by G. Billy and M.C.Chamla (1981), that in Nubia, the nasal index, identical to the European values at the origin, increases considerably then to join the figures observed in central Africa; at the same time, the dental anthropologists (Greene 1972, 1981; Carlson and Van Gerven 1979; Small 1981; Calcagno 1986) observe a morphological reduction of the dentition. This phenomenon of nasal enlargement could not, in Nubia, be linked to the humidification of the climate since it was, on the contrary, aridified, and thus comes from genetic exchanges, in the sense of a greater contribution from Black Africa; it is up to archaeology to link this evolution with cultural mutations.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by SlimJim:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Exactly just how close do ancient Upper Egyptians cluster with Lower Nubians? The Lower Nubians of the Kulubnarti paper were around 40% SSA, so how did the Upper Egyptians form a cluster with them if Antalas is saying that this was just the result of admixture in the 18th Dynasty?

Shouldn't Upper Egyptians still align more closely with Lower Egyptians and Maghrebis if the Eurasian component in the Lower Nubians is the only thing that intimates them with Upper Egyptians?

Who plots closer to ancient Upper Egyptians... is it the almost entirely Eurasian Berbers or is it the Eurasian shifted (around 60%) Lower Nubians?

---

Pre-Dynastic Upper Egytians generally cluster closer to Lower Nubians than they do to Lower Egyptians, this trend continues to a certain extent into the Old Kingdom, but pretty quickly Upper Egyptian skulls look more and more like Lower Egyptian ones over time, this trend started from the Early Dynastic period, maybe even late Pre-dynastic but I'd have to check again.
Also, Berbers are around 20% SSA-like, so not really "almost entirely Eurasian".

The pic Antalas posted shows the Upper Egyptian centroid is closest to Nubia-C, Nubia-A, Copt and Kerma, the Nubian centroid is situated close to Badarians and Naqadans, and so is the pooled Somali-Oromo sample. It clearly shows a lot of overlap/appreciable affinities between Upper Egyptians and Lower Nubians.
Keep in mind Neolithic Europeans aren't identical to modern Euros, some of them they show affinities to Africans that modern Euros don't show, such as LBK clutering closest with Moroccans, or Nea Nikomedeia clusteing close with Somalis (Brace 2005), look at where the Neolithic Spain sample plots and compare to where the Classical Greek sample(Hellenistic period?) plots.

And no, ancient Egyptians will share SSA-like ancestry with Nubians as well as Eurasian-like ancestry, but lower amounts of course.

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quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Antalas

The Kulubnarti paper demonstrates that the Eurasian component found in that Lower Nubian population was mostly female mediated, and that the Eurasian component was introduced long after Kush had already been established.

1981 is not modern scholarship.

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quote:

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Originally posted by SlimJim:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Antalas

The Kulubnarti paper demonstrates that the Eurasian component found in that Lower Nubian population was mostly female mediated, and that the Eurasian component was introduced long after Kush had already been established.

1981 is not modern scholarship.

---

A portion of the Kulubnarti genomes could be modelled using the PN genomes, some of those remains were 4000+ years old, so the Eurasian component was definitely present before Kush was even established. You also have remains like Al khiday that shift away from SSA remains and instead cluster with MENA rich Lower Nubians, those remains are 14,000 years old.... So some of the Eurasian component is very very old within that region.

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quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
[QB] Antalas

The Kulubnarti paper demonstrates that the Eurasian component found in that Lower Nubian population was mostly female mediated, and that the Eurasian component was introduced long after Kush had already been established.

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The inferred dates of admixture are significantly heterogeneous , providing compelling evidence that the admixture did not all occur at a single time. Considering the twenty individuals who also have 14C dates as well as DATES estimates allows us additional insight into the timing of admixture. Here, using calibrated 14C dates, we observe point estimates ranging from ∼200 BCE (95% CI, ∼490 BCE–100 CE) to ∼660 CE (95% CI, 470– 850 CE), confirming that waves of admixture possibly over roughly a millennium could have contributed to the formation of the Kulubnarti gene pool.

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quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese: 1981 is not modern scholarship.

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quote:

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Originally posted by SlimJim:
Your forgetting that Nubians would have also experienced Eurasian/Levantine gene flow from the North. When looking at Natufian/Neolithic Farmer proportions relative to Dinka in most modern Horners and many pastoral Neolithic samples, they come out to a population who would have been around 40% SSA, and these groups Nile Valley ancestors would have largely left Sudan/Egypt no later than the Bronze age, so well before this extra SSA geneflow.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Antalas

I'll defer to SlimJim since he seems to be very knowledgeable about ancient Nile Valley populations. It seems that I was wrong and that Lower Nubians had these proportions for a very long time.

If as SlimJim says that Neolithic Lower Nubians and pastoral Horn African populations were around 40% SSA and that Badarians and Naqadans clustered closer to them than they do to Lower Egyptians, then that's not a win for you.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

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Originally posted by SlimJim:
Your forgetting that Nubians would have also experienced Eurasian/Levantine gene flow from the North. When looking at Natufian/Neolithic Farmer proportions relative to Dinka in most modern Horners and many pastoral Neolithic samples, they come out to a population who would have been around 40% SSA, and these groups Nile Valley ancestors would have largely left Sudan/Egypt no later than the Bronze age, so well before this extra SSA geneflow.

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Depends we actually also detect a SSA geneflow during the middle kingdom in Lower nubia and even upper egypt (el Kubanieh) and as you can see the diversity is quite important already during pre-dynastic/early dynastic eras so I don't think you can apply those values to all egyptians or even all upper egyptians.

also if I'm not mistaken 40% SSA is lower than the average values in the Horn

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Antalas

I'll defer to SlimJim since he seems to be very knowledgeable about ancient Nile Valley populations. It seems that I was wrong and that Lower Nubians had these proportions for a very long time.

If as SlimJim says that Neolithic Lower Nubians and pastoral Horn African populations were around 40% SSA and that Badarians and Naqadans clustered closer to them than they do to Lower Egyptians, then that's not a win for you.

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I already answered to his 40% figure and his claims are based on the picture I posted if you haven't noticed anyway the chart also shows that nubians themselves were not homogeneous and naqada appears even closer to Europeans than the upper egyptian centroid. Most AE samples appear much more eurasian shifted than nubians or somalis and knowing that the latter already have substantial amount of Eurasian ancestry you know what to conclude...

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quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Antalas

I'll defer to SlimJim since he seems to be very knowledgeable about ancient Nile Valley populations. It seems that I was wrong and that Lower Nubians had these proportions for a very long time.

If as SlimJim says that Neolithic Lower Nubians and pastoral Horn African populations were around 40% SSA and that Badarians and Naqadans clustered closer to them than they do to Lower Egyptians, then that's not a win for you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SlimJim:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Antalas

I'll defer to SlimJim since he seems to be very knowledgeable about ancient Nile Valley populations. It seems that I was wrong and that Lower Nubians had these proportions for a very long time.

If as SlimJim says that Neolithic Lower Nubians and pastoral Horn African populations were around 40% SSA and that Badarians and Naqadans clustered closer to them than they do to Lower Egyptians, then that's not a win for you.

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Well I think its a little more complex than that. In most metric and non-metric cranial studies early Upper Egyptians despite being close to Afro Asiatic Horners, still show affinties to Late Period Northerners, who we know were extremely genetically similar to modern Egyptians, generally, most Early Dynastic Egyptians remains fall on a spectrum between Horners and modern Egyptians, they don't flat out plot right on top in most cases.
I think Horners may have retained a similar ratio of Indigenous Egyptian(Al Khiday-like?) + Levantine Farmer ancestry to Early Upper Egyptians, and this is part of the reason they cluster closely, rather than similar Eurasian:SSA proportions.

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quote:

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Originally posted by SlimJim:
I'm extrapolating Natufian/Levantine Farmer and Dinka proportions to Lower Nubians, not Egyptians, its pretty consistent between the Pastoral Neolithic samples and most modern Horners. The most Eurasian shifted East African pastoralist sample was about 30% SSA when the Mota ancestry was accounted for, so in any case, not too far from modern Horners, but even then the majority of the samples were 40-45% SSA with the Mota accounted for, I think most lower Nubians will fall between 35-55% SSA, with an avg of around 40-45%.

Semitic/Cushitic Eritreans and Northern Ethiopians are about 40% SSA, estimates generally range from 35-45. Somalis are about 55% SSA, they are quite Nilote shifted relative to other Horners. [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Wait, so Europeans are somehow closer to Naqadans than the Upper Egyptian centroid that includes other Upper Egyptian Predynastic cultures like the Badarians?

Correct me if I've misinterpreted what you're saying here. [/QB]

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The widespread appearance of small projectile points comparable to Levantine Pottery Neolithic ones in the northern half of the Egyptian Western Desert including the Fayum suggests that socioeconomic contacts across the southern Levant, Negev, Sinai and northeastern Africa became frequent and fast in the late 7th - early 6th millennia cal.BC. Through these contacts and probably the establishment of dense kin networks during this period, information about arable land in Egypt would have accumulated sufficiently on the side of Levantine farmer-herders, and an idea about wheat/barley farming and sheep/goat herding would have been acquired on the side of Egyptian foragers. Levantine farmer-herders would have had little reluctance to migrate, once the information about potential destinations was acquired, and routes were defined following kinship connections.

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quote:

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Naqada II (c. 3,500–3,200 BC), or Gerzean Period from the site of El-Gerzeh, in which are recorded the first attestations of contacts with the Near East, in particular with Canaan and the coast of Biblo; and Naqada III (c. 3,200–3,000 BC), or Dynasty 0, a period that sees the formation of the Egyptian state taking place. This period is called Dynasty 0 since we have only the names of some sovereigns at the head of independent kingdoms who were fighting to dominate the region. This is a period of technological, social, and political innovations

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Evidence of Neolithic migration from the Near East is supported by the introduction of domestic animals like cows, sheep and goats to North africa.

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Originally posted by SlimJim:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Antalas

The Kulubnarti paper demonstrates that the Eurasian component found in that Lower Nubian population was mostly female mediated, and that the Eurasian component was introduced long after Kush had already been established.

1981 is not modern scholarship.

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A portion of the Kulubnarti genomes could be modelled using the PN genomes, some of those remains were 4000+ years old, so the Eurasian component was definitely present before Kush was even established. You also have remains like Al khiday that shift away from SSA remains and instead cluster with MENA rich Lower Nubians, those remains are 14,000 years old.... So some of the Eurasian component is very very old within that region.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

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Originally posted by SlimJim:
I'm extrapolating Natufian/Levantine Farmer and Dinka proportions to Lower Nubians, not Egyptians, its pretty consistent between the Pastoral Neolithic samples and most modern Horners. The most Eurasian shifted East African pastoralist sample was about 30% SSA when the Mota ancestry was accounted for, so in any case, not too far from modern Horners, but even then the majority of the samples were 40-45% SSA with the Mota accounted for, I think most lower Nubians will fall between 35-55% SSA, with an avg of around 40-45%.

Semitic/Cushitic Eritreans and Northern Ethiopians are about 40% SSA, estimates generally range from 35-45. Somalis are about 55% SSA, they are quite Nilote shifted relative to other Horners.

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Then I suppose we both agree that such values were most likely lower in Egypt (including for upper egyptians). Also how do modern upper egyptians behave with such model ? I of course don't buy the idea that modern egyptians are only 10-15% SSA especially not upper egyptians.

And interesting, I didn't know some eritreans/ethiopians could reach such level of eurasian ancestry. [/QB]

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Originally posted by Doug M:
What in the world is a PN genome?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:

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Originally posted by SlimJim:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Antalas

The Kulubnarti paper demonstrates that the Eurasian component found in that Lower Nubian population was mostly female mediated, and that the Eurasian component was introduced long after Kush had already been established.

1981 is not modern scholarship.

---

A portion of the Kulubnarti genomes could be modelled using the PN genomes, some of those remains were 4000+ years old, so the Eurasian component was definitely present before Kush was even established. You also have remains like Al khiday that shift away from SSA remains and instead cluster with MENA rich Lower Nubians, those remains are 14,000 years old.... So some of the Eurasian component is very very old within that region.

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What in the world is a PN genome? Please explain and how does it prove Eurasian ancstry in 14,000 year old Lower Nubians? How do those remains show "Eurasian" affinity? I fail to see how any of what you said makes sense. Namely because you have provided no data or any papers to support what you are saying. There is no 15,000 year old DNA from Sudan that we can use to understand what DNA was present. And I would argue that many of those so-called "Eurasian" lineages were always present in the Nile Valley because the Nile Valley is a corridor for human migrations out of Africa. On top of that the rise of agriculture in Africa is likewise indigenous as there are numerous examples of behaviors related to harvesting wild barley 10 thousand years before the domestication of barley elsewhere. So I don't agree that the "neolithic" in Africa is based on Eurasian mass migration into the Nile Valley. Likewise, most of this discussion about "sub saharans" vs "north Africans" assumes that Africa has a limited subset of DNA lineages that are indigenous. Which is mostly the result of having more ancient DNA from Eurasia than Africa. I would assume some lineages that are now called "Eurasian" have been present going back over 20,000 years in North Africa and along the Nile. And unfortunately modern researchers seem obsessed in using Kenya, Nigeria and Tanzania as the sole "African" DNA populations in many DNA studies, while skipping over Sudan all together. If Sudanese are black and have so-called "Eurasian" genes then so can the ancient and modern Egyptians. But of course that would invalid many assumptions of these DNA models.

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Originally posted by SlimJim:
Yhh I agree it would have been lower in Egypt of course, that goes without saying tbh. It’s hard to comment on modern Upper Egyptians because I don’t think I’ve seen a single study that hasn’t gotten most, if not all of their Egyptian samples from Cairo, also I can’t think of any craniofacial analyses that compare modern Upper Egyptians to ancients other than the Batrawi study but his methodology was said to be quite flawed and outdated so it’s hard to say at this time.

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Maghreb populations are closer to European and Middle Eastern populations while Upper Egyptian populations show more affinities with sub-Saharan and East African populations. Our work also reveals a clear and significant genetic differentiation between Maghreb Berbers and Egyptian Berbers, with the latter showing more affinities with East African populations.

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quote:

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Originally posted by SlimJim:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:

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Originally posted by SlimJim:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Antalas

The Kulubnarti paper demonstrates that the Eurasian component found in that Lower Nubian population was mostly female mediated, and that the Eurasian component was introduced long after Kush had already been established.

1981 is not modern scholarship.

---

A portion of the Kulubnarti genomes could be modelled using the PN genomes, some of those remains were 4000+ years old, so the Eurasian component was definitely present before Kush was even established. You also have remains like Al khiday that shift away from SSA remains and instead cluster with MENA rich Lower Nubians, those remains are 14,000 years old.... So some of the Eurasian component is very very old within that region.

---

What in the world is a PN genome? Please explain and how does it prove Eurasian ancstry in 14,000 year old Lower Nubians? How do those remains show "Eurasian" affinity? I fail to see how any of what you said makes sense. Namely because you have provided no data or any papers to support what you are saying. There is no 15,000 year old DNA from Sudan that we can use to understand what DNA was present. And I would argue that many of those so-called "Eurasian" lineages were always present in the Nile Valley because the Nile Valley is a corridor for human migrations out of Africa. On top of that the rise of agriculture in Africa is likewise indigenous as there are numerous examples of behaviors related to harvesting wild barley 10 thousand years before the domestication of barley elsewhere. So I don't agree that the "neolithic" in Africa is based on Eurasian mass migration into the Nile Valley. Likewise, most of this discussion about "sub saharans" vs "north Africans" assumes that Africa has a limited subset of DNA lineages that are indigenous. Which is mostly the result of having more ancient DNA from Eurasia than Africa. I would assume some lineages that are now called "Eurasian" have been present going back over 20,000 years in North Africa and along the Nile. And unfortunately modern researchers seem obsessed in using Kenya, Nigeria and Tanzania as the sole "African" DNA populations in many DNA studies, while skipping over Sudan all together. If Sudanese are black and have so-called "Eurasian" genes then so can the ancient and modern Egyptians. But of course that would invalid many assumptions of these DNA models.

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PN=Pastoral Neolithic.

The 14,000 year old Al khiday remains clusters away from the predominantly SSA Jebel Sahaba/Wadi Halfa remains and towards the MENA rich Lower Nubians, it’s not hard to see how this allows for a portion of the Eurasian/MENA component to be pushed back to the Mesolithic/Palaeolithic, the alternative is that the Eurasian ancestry found in the Nile Valley is all Neolithic/Chalcolithic/Bronze Age and that ancient Egyptians are essentially Neolithic Levantines + some SSA. I didn’t say anything about mass Levantine migration, that’s exactly what I’m arguing against by saying the Eurasian affinity in Early Egyptians will largely be native to the region and quite old. I don’t think you know what your arguing half the time tbch and lol at you having the audacity to say I don’t post data, as if every single one of your posts aren’t filled with nothing but ideology/politics.

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Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:

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Originally posted by SlimJim:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:

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Originally posted by SlimJim:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Antalas

The Kulubnarti paper demonstrates that the Eurasian component found in that Lower Nubian population was mostly female mediated, and that the Eurasian component was introduced long after Kush had already been established.

1981 is not modern scholarship.

---

A portion of the Kulubnarti genomes could be modelled using the PN genomes, some of those remains were 4000+ years old, so the Eurasian component was definitely present before Kush was even established. You also have remains like Al khiday that shift away from SSA remains and instead cluster with MENA rich Lower Nubians, those remains are 14,000 years old.... So some of the Eurasian component is very very old within that region.

---

What in the world is a PN genome? Please explain and how does it prove Eurasian ancstry in 14,000 year old Lower Nubians? How do those remains show "Eurasian" affinity? I fail to see how any of what you said makes sense. Namely because you have provided no data or any papers to support what you are saying. There is no 15,000 year old DNA from Sudan that we can use to understand what DNA was present. And I would argue that many of those so-called "Eurasian" lineages were always present in the Nile Valley because the Nile Valley is a corridor for human migrations out of Africa. On top of that the rise of agriculture in Africa is likewise indigenous as there are numerous examples of behaviors related to harvesting wild barley 10 thousand years before the domestication of barley elsewhere. So I don't agree that the "neolithic" in Africa is based on Eurasian mass migration into the Nile Valley. Likewise, most of this discussion about "sub saharans" vs "north Africans" assumes that Africa has a limited subset of DNA lineages that are indigenous. Which is mostly the result of having more ancient DNA from Eurasia than Africa. I would assume some lineages that are now called "Eurasian" have been present going back over 20,000 years in North Africa and along the Nile. And unfortunately modern researchers seem obsessed in using Kenya, Nigeria and Tanzania as the sole "African" DNA populations in many DNA studies, while skipping over Sudan all together. If Sudanese are black and have so-called "Eurasian" genes then so can the ancient and modern Egyptians. But of course that would invalid many assumptions of these DNA models.

---

PN=Pastoral Neolithic.

The 14,000 year old Al khiday remains clusters away from the predominantly SSA Jebel Sahaba/Wadi Halfa remains and towards the MENA rich Lower Nubians, it’s not hard to see how this allows for a portion of the Eurasian/MENA component to be pushed back to the Mesolithic/Palaeolithic, the alternative is that the Eurasian ancestry found in the Nile Valley is all Neolithic/Chalcolithic/Bronze Age and that ancient Egyptians are essentially Neolithic Levantines + some SSA. I didn’t say anything about mass Levantine migration, that’s exactly what I’m arguing against by saying the Eurasian affinity in Early Egyptians will largely be native to the region and quite old. I don’t think you know what your arguing half the time tbch and lol at you having the audacity to say I don’t post data, as if every single one of your posts aren’t filled with nothing but ideology/politics.

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I am asking because you basically are saying lower Sudan shifted towards Eurasians with no source. That isn't ideology, it just sounds like you are spreading misinformation.

So again where is the source for this claim of Al Khiday shifting towards Eurasian affinity 14,000 years ago? And what source is there for a PN genetic marker in Africa considering the AFRICAN PN started in the Sahel and Upper Nile.

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Originally posted by SlimJim:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:

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Originally posted by SlimJim:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:

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Originally posted by SlimJim:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudanese:
Antalas

The Kulubnarti paper demonstrates that the Eurasian component found in that Lower Nubian population was mostly female mediated, and that the Eurasian component was introduced long after Kush had already been established.

1981 is not modern scholarship.

---

A portion of the Kulubnarti genomes could be modelled using the PN genomes, some of those remains were 4000+ years old, so the Eurasian component was definitely present before Kush was even established. You also have remains like Al khiday that shift away from SSA remains and instead cluster with MENA rich Lower Nubians, those remains are 14,000 years old.... So some of the Eurasian component is very very old within that region.

---

What in the world is a PN genome? Please explain and how does it prove Eurasian ancstry in 14,000 year old Lower Nubians? How do those remains show "Eurasian" affinity? I fail to see how any of what you said makes sense. Namely because you have provided no data or any papers to support what you are saying. There is no 15,000 year old DNA from Sudan that we can use to understand what DNA was present. And I would argue that many of those so-called "Eurasian" lineages were always present in the Nile Valley because the Nile Valley is a corridor for human migrations out of Africa. On top of that the rise of agriculture in Africa is likewise indigenous as there are numerous examples of behaviors related to harvesting wild barley 10 thousand years before the domestication of barley elsewhere. So I don't agree that the "neolithic" in Africa is based on Eurasian mass migration into the Nile Valley. Likewise, most of this discussion about "sub saharans" vs "north Africans" assumes that Africa has a limited subset of DNA lineages that are indigenous. Which is mostly the result of having more ancient DNA from Eurasia than Africa. I would assume some lineages that are now called "Eurasian" have been present going back over 20,000 years in North Africa and along the Nile. And unfortunately modern researchers seem obsessed in using Kenya, Nigeria and Tanzania as the sole "African" DNA populations in many DNA studies, while skipping over Sudan all together. If Sudanese are black and have so-called "Eurasian" genes then so can the ancient and modern Egyptians. But of course that would invalid many assumptions of these DNA models.

---

PN=Pastoral Neolithic.

The 14,000 year old Al khiday remains clusters away from the predominantly SSA Jebel Sahaba/Wadi Halfa remains and towards the MENA rich Lower Nubians, it’s not hard to see how this allows for a portion of the Eurasian/MENA component to be pushed back to the Mesolithic/Palaeolithic, the alternative is that the Eurasian ancestry found in the Nile Valley is all Neolithic/Chalcolithic/Bronze Age and that ancient Egyptians are essentially Neolithic Levantines + some SSA. I didn’t say anything about mass Levantine migration, that’s exactly what I’m arguing against by saying the Eurasian affinity in Early Egyptians will largely be native to the region and quite old. I don’t think you know what your arguing half the time tbch and lol at you having the audacity to say I don’t post data, as if every single one of your posts aren’t filled with nothing but ideology/politics.

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I am asking because you basically are saying lower Sudan shifted towards Eurasians with no source. That isn't ideology, it just sounds like you are spreading misinformation.

So again where is the source for this claim of Al Khiday shifting towards Eurasian affinity 14,000 years ago? And what source is there for a PN genetic marker in Africa considering the AFRICAN PN started in the Sahel and Upper Nile.

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Wadi Halfa/Jebel Sahaba were strongly SSA in their morphology and had little to no affinity to Eurasian/MENA admixed people, so its likely they were predominantly SSA, particularly Nilotic like.

Al Khiday, rather than clustering with Jebel Sahaba, cluters with MENA rich Nubians such as Kerma and C group, so some of the Eurasian/MENA affinity found in ancient Lower Nubia and Egypt, would date back to the Mesolithic.
https://imgur.com/a/dehde43

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ome researchers posit population continuity between Late Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers of the late Pleistocene and Holocene agriculturalists from Lower (northern) Nubia, in northeast Africa. Substantial craniodental differences in these time-successive groups are suggested to result from in situ evolution. Specifically, these populations are considered a model example for subsistence-related selection worldwide in the transition to agriculture. Others question continuity, with findings indicating that the largely homogeneous Holocene populations differ significantly from late Pleistocene Lower Nubians. If the latter are representative of the local populace, post-Pleistocene discontinuity is implied. So who was ancestral to the Holocene agriculturalists? Dental morphological analyses of 18 samples (1075 individuals), including one dated to the 12th millennium BCE from Al Khiday, near the Upper Nubian border, may provide an answer. It is the first Late Palaeolithic sample (n = 55) recovered within the region in approximately 50 years. Using the Arizona State University Dental Anthropology System to record traits and multivariate statistics to estimate biological affinities, Al Khiday is comparable to several Holocene samples, yet also highly divergent from contemporaneous Lower Nubians. Thus, population continuity is indicated after all, but with late Pleistocene Upper-rather than Lower Nubians as originally suggested-assuming dental traits are adequate proxies for ancient DNA.

....

Two-dimensional MDS of 36-trait MMD distances among Late Palaeolithic Gebel Sahaba (GSA) and Al Khiday (AKH), pooled Lower (LNU) and Upper (UNU) Holocene Nubian samples from the present study, and 12 early Holocene and historic samples from West, Central and East sub-Saharan Africa (details in the electronic supplementary material, Note S3 and table S7). MDS Kruskal's stress formula 1 = 0.214 and r2 = 0.787. (Online version in colour.)

A sub-Saharan population in late Pleistocene Nubia should not be unexpected, given northward expansions of Sahelian vegetation and sub-Saharan fauna during Saharan ‘green’ periods; the most recent initiated 15 000 BP [67], before its maximum around 9000 BP [67–69]. It may seem surprising that these apparent migrants originated so far away, but many well-watered migration routes were available then [22,26,68]. In any event, information on biological distinctiveness and non-local derivation is not novel, as mentioned. Nevertheless, diachronic change in a continuous, geographically stable Lower Nubian population from the late Pleistocene onwards is still proposed as a viable explanation [3].

What is new, however, is the 12th millennium Al Khiday sample. None of the crania has been reconstructed but they appear robust (electronic supplementary material, figures S5 and S6), perhaps not unlike contemporaneous Lower Nubians, northwest African Iberomaurusians [29] or Central African Ishango [64]. Odontometrics have also not been recorded, but all teeth appear much larger than more recent samples, again not unlike the above material [27]. Yet, compared to Gebel Sahaba, Al Khiday teeth are simpler like in Holocene Nubians (electronic supplementary material, table S5; figure 2). In particular, distances with the Hierakonpolis C-Group and five Upper Nubian samples do not differ significantly. However, Al Khiday also expresses traits indicative of sub-Saharan origin ([57,65,66]; electronic supplementary material, Note S3), but like geographically proximate East Africans and one Central African sample (electronic supplementary material, Note S3, table S7; figure 3). Site location is a likely factor, as during humid periods it would literally have been in ‘sub’-Saharan Africa. Of course, regardless of climate, the Nile and tributaries acted as north-south migration routes during the whole of prehistory. Evidence of exchange is seen by an increase in sub-Saharan-like traits between Lower and Upper Nubian Holocene samples (figure 2; electronic supplementary material, table S1, Note S3).

On the above bases, selection did not account for craniodental changes between the Lower Nubian late Pleistocene and Holocene samples studied by continuity proponents. The Wadi Halfa/Gebel Sahaba/Tushka population, whether in residence for a few generations or a thousand years, contributed little, if anything, to the Holocene gene pool for in situ evolution to occur. However, a candidate ancestral population was present. While divergent from some, Late Palaeolithic Al Khiday is closer to all samples than Gebel Sahaba (electronic supplementary material, table S5). From this population then, craniofacial reduction relative to the masticatory-functional hypothesis [8,9] cannot be ruled out, given indications of Al Khiday robusticity. Neither can selection for size reduction in all teeth following the Pleistocene [1,16,18]. However, the lack of reduction in dental morphological complexity does not support in situ caries selection [7,20] in this Upper Nubian scenario.

In summary, the most parsimonious explanation is ancestors of Holocene agriculturalists were in Nubia—just not at Wadi Halfa, Gebel Sahaba, and Tushka. Although cultural diffusion with the incorporation of non-local resources occurred [70,71], with perhaps some immigration, it is unnecessary to hypothesize a significant post-Pleistocene influx of agriculturalists. The results suggest most future Nubian agriculturalists were in residence the entire time, though previously in the guise of Neolithic agro-pastoralists and intensive collectors. It would seem likely that, soil deflation aside, more Late Palaeolithic skeletal remains akin to Al Khiday may yet be discovered, possibly including Lower Nubia. So, long-term population continuity appears likely after all, perhaps including in situ selection for a reduction in cranial robusticity, as well as dental size (only), during the transition from hunting–gathering to agriculture.

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Originally posted by SlimJim:
Your acting dumb, I know you know that Lower Nubians generally shift away from predominantly SSA groups and towards MENA rich people such as Somalis, Eritreans/Ethiopians, Egyptians, Maghrebis etc... So if Al Khiday shifts away from the predominantly SSA Jebel Sahaba sample and towards MENA admixed folks then its obvious Al Khiday harbors some of that MENA/Eurasian-like ancestry.


https://imgur.com/a/Vh1m56N
You think Lower Nubians wont have Eurasian-like ancestry when 4000 year old Kenyans who hail from Sudan/Egypt carry significant amounts of Natufian and even a little bit of Late period Egyptian ancestry(Abusir), which means the Abusir profile may have existed since the Old Kingdom.

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Originally posted by SlimJim:
What image are you on about?
Some of the reference populations despite being African are rich in MENA/Eurasian related ancestry such as C group, Kerma, A group etc... This is obvious due to the fact that they cluster well away from predominantly SSA groups and closer to intermediate groups such as Afro Asiatic speaking Horners and North Africans. I shouldn't have to explain this to someone who has been here since 2005.


"Our qpAdm modeling reveals that the PN individuals had
substantial proportions of all three ancestry components
(~40% each for those represented by Dinka and by the Chal-
colithic Israel individuals, and ~20% related to Mota; Fig. 3
and tables S8 and S9), with no evidence of western African-
related ancestry. "
https://www.docdroid.net/ehZu0iU/ancient-dna-reveals-a-multistep-spread-of-the-first-herders-into-sub-saharan-africa-prendergast-et-al-2019-pdf#page=3


East African pastoralists are important in the study on Nubia/Egypt because they literally hail from that region so their genomes can give you a snapshot on what agro-pastoralists along this Nile looked like IMO.
https://imgur.com/a/Vh1m56N
Most of the Mota in these pastoralists was picked up in Ethiopia/SE Africa, so their Sudanese ancestors would have had even less SSA ancestry, looking at their Natufian, Late period Egyptian and Taf relative to the Dinka, they're generally around 45% Dinka and 55% Natufian, AE and Taf. Either way their heavily MENA in ancestry. This new Kerma DNA will be the same.

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Originally posted by SlimJim:
A portion of the Kulubnarti genomes could be modelled using the PN genomes, some of those remains were 4000+ years old, so the Eurasian component was definitely present before Kush was even established. You also have remains like Al khiday that shift away from SSA remains and instead cluster with MENA rich Lower Nubians, those remains are 14,000 years old.... So some of the Eurasian component is very very old within that region.

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Where is the source of your information that the 14,000 year old remains from Al Khiday shifted towards Eurasians? I already get the later DNA studies talking of later Nubian mixture, but that is not what I am asking you about. You keep avoiding that specific question I asked you about. I assume you had to read it somewhere so where is it or did you just state this yourself without any specific study or paper that you saw it in? Because again, when I look at papers on Al Khiday, like the one I posted, there is no Eurasian reference population included in any analysis of the remains from 14,000 years ago. And like I mentioned earlier there is no DNA from 14,000 years ago in Sudan so we don't know what lineages were present. But we do know that populations in the area (Wadi Halfa, Wadi Kubbaniya, Lower Sudan) were already processing wild grain long before the arrival of any "neolithic assemblage" from Eurasia. Al Khiday is much further South of that near Khartoum.

quote:

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Due to the preservation condition of the Sudanesesites and post-depositional anthropogenic disturbance(Salvatori, 2012; Usai, 2014), the deposits are usually badly disturbed and archaeo-botanic evidence is not well-preserved, if at all. Some suggestion in this regard comes from a study on dental calculus removed from the teeth of Al Khiday individuals. This study indicated theuse of
Cyperus rotundus tubers (a C4 plant) in the pre-Mesolithic period, and wheat since the Neolithic (Buck-ley et al., 2014). The only archaeo-botanical indications we have from contemporaneous Mesolithic sites are fromseed-casts in pottery including Sorghum sp., Panicum sp.,Setaria sp., and Echinochloa sp. (Magid, 1995, 2003;Fuller and Smith, 2004). However, excluding the few complete specimens with clear red and yellow ochre stains, the numerous grinding stones and grinders recovered in Mesolithic sites suggest that botanical products were milled by these people.

CONCLUSION
The isotope study of the three populations at Al Khiday 2 demonstrates basic differences that can be explained, at least partially, as the output of a changing environment and food availability; a factor that must consider the distribution of natural resources, including cultural and social choices.The changes in subsistence strategies from the pre-Mesolithic to the Neolithic, and also the Meroitic, can beconsidered as a transition from hunting-gathering-fishing to cultivation-herding. As suggested by isotope analyses, the diet of the pre-Mesolithic population,focused strongly on hunting with a crucial contributionof C3 and C4 plants, seeds, and tubers. Unfortunately, the contribution of fish contributing to this subsistence system cannot be assessed due to lack of collagen. Pre-Mesolithic humans and Mesolithic animals have nearly the same values of O carb . This could mean that both periods experienced similar climatic conditions and that water was widely available.

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Nearly 70 graves belong to a pre-Mesolithic phase, showing an unusual ritual of body deposition (Usai et al. 2010). The individual was buried in a prone and elongated position, a rare ritual only attested to in Africa at Wadi Kubbaniya (Wendorf and Schild 1986) and Jebel Moya (Addison 1949; Brass 2009 and personal communication 2010),
3 as well as in the Near East at several Natufian sites(Bocquetin 2005) and in Europe at Dolni Vestonice (Klima 1987). Pre-Mesolithic burials contained no grave goods, apart from the individual in Grave 153 who had an ivory bracelet at the right wrist (Fig. 11). Unfortunately, despite many attempts, no direct radiometric date is yet available for the prehistoric prone skeletons of the first burial phase (Usai et al. 2010). In fact, all skeletons have suffered from a heavy diagenetic process, possibly due to peculiar climatic conditions occurring in the Holocene, favouring a continuous recycling of calcium carbonate in the form of subsequent calcite dissolution and recrystallization (Usai et al. 2010). This phenomenon would have disruptive effects on the inner structure of bones, which therefore did not preserve a sufficient amount of collagen for dating. The mineralogical, inorganic parts of bones also suffered weathering as an effect of independent environmental processes.

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Originally posted by Antalas:

And yes straight/wavy hair appeared first among eurasians not sub-saharans :

[QUOTE] Interestingly, different genes have been associated with straight hair in Europeans and East Asians, suggesting that this trait evolved independently at least twice. The most robust associations for straight hair have implicated Trichohyalin (TCHH, a structural hair protein) in Europeans14,15, and EDAR (a cell signalling receptor) in East Asians16, illustrating the range of cellular mechanisms that can impact on hair shape.

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Recent studies have identified Asian-specific alleles of the EDAR and FGFR2 genes that are associated with thick, straight hair, suggesting that these variants arose after the divergence of Asians and Europeans .3, [...] The T allele at rs11803731 is the derived state and shows a striking geographic specificity to Europe and western-central Asia, reaching its highest frequency in Northern Europeans (Figure 1E), suggesting that the variant arose somewhere in this broad region.

Common Variants in the Trichohyalin Gene Are Associated with Straight Hair in Europeans, 2009

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Originally posted by beyoku:
There is some much wrong with your outdated concepts of human variation that is like rose colored glasses over everything you see. You are creating a dichotomy between "Sub Saharans" and "Eurasians" in reference to a population which is neither, nor a composite of the two, acting as if they in and of themselves dont exist.

Curly AND Straight hair originate on the African continent, at a time where no "Eurasians" even exist.

You REALLY should watch this paying key attention the 35 minute mark. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT_HmUR8iuc
You need to learn the FUNCTION of phenotypical features you attribute to "Eurasia". All Eurasians dont even have Straight hair. [/QB]

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Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku:
There is some much wrong with your outdated concepts of human variation that is like rose colored glasses over everything you see. You are creating a dichotomy between "Sub Saharans" and "Eurasians" in reference to a population which is neither, nor a composite of the two, acting as if they in and of themselves dont exist.

Curly AND Straight hair originate on the African continent, at a time where no "Eurasians" even exist.

You REALLY should watch this paying key attention the 35 minute mark. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT_HmUR8iuc
You need to learn the FUNCTION of phenotypical features you attribute to "Eurasia". All Eurasians dont even have Straight hair.

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So you disagree with me simply because that allele T was ancestral therefore making curly/kinky hair a "recent" adaptive trait ? The level of dishonesty is baffling ...smh

The fact that straight hair is uncommon in Sub-saharan africa except in areas with high amount of eurasian ancestry is already quite telling but the thing is you don't really know when this expansion of the derived allele C occured in Africa and it most likely occured way before any SSA groups as we know them today existed so my point still stand. Also such debate shouldn't even exist since we're talking about these features in recent populations like Ancient egyptians so at that time such trait was obviously related to alleles brought by eurasian settlers certainly not sub-saharans. [/QB]

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Let me make this smaller for you to digest.

1 - You didnt watch the video, dont be lazy. You need to watch the video so you can learn the adaptive FUNCTION of curly hair, this is the defense of her thesis. Straight hair SHOULD be "uncommon" in Sub Saharan Africans, when you watch the video you will see why.

2 - You are still making a dichotomy between Sub Saharan Africa and "Eurasians" as if NO OTHER HUMANS EXIST, particularly humans from the region that we are discussion.

3 - Does North Africa, or even the west Eurasians who migrated into North and East Africa carry derived EDAR alleles?

4 - You Said : "expansion of the derived allele C occured in Africa and it most likely occurred way before any SSA groups as we know them today existed". You dont see how this supports MY positions that both hair types existed on the a African continent before any Eurasians existed? Are you arguing the "Ancestral" allele existed in a population that existed "before Sub Saharan Africans as we know them today" but those humans were NOT on the African continent?
You are too smart to be this stupid. Take the glasses off. Racism lowers your IQ.
 

---

Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:


1 - You didnt watch the video, dont be lazy. You need to watch the video so you can learn the adaptive FUNCTION of curly hair, this is the defense of her thesis. Straight hair SHOULD be "uncommon" in Sub Saharan Africans, when you watch the video you will see why.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku: 2 - You are still making a dichotomy between Sub Saharan Africa and "Eurasians" as if NO OTHER HUMANS EXIST, particularly humans from the region that we are discussion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku: 3 - Does North Africa, or even the west Eurasians who migrated into North and East Africa carry derived EDAR alleles?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku: 3 4 - You Said : "expansion of the derived allele C occured in Africa and it most likely occurred way before any SSA groups as we know them today existed". You dont see how this supports MY positions that both hair types existed on the a African continent before any Eurasians existed? Are you arguing the "Ancestral" allele existed in a population that existed "before Sub Saharan Africans as we know them today" but those humans were NOT on the African continent?
You are too smart to be this stupid. Take the glasses off. Racism lowers your IQ.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:


1 - You didnt watch the video, dont be lazy. You need to watch the video so you can learn the adaptive FUNCTION of curly hair, this is the defense of her thesis. Straight hair SHOULD be "uncommon" in Sub Saharan Africans, when you watch the video you will see why.

---

I already saw it and pay attention to what I wrote ; I'm well aware of its adaptative nature.

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku: 2 - You are still making a dichotomy between Sub Saharan Africa and "Eurasians" as if NO OTHER HUMANS EXIST, particularly humans from the region that we are discussion.

---

what do you mean exactly by this ? Some kind of unique third component ?

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku: 3 - Does North Africa, or even the west Eurasians who migrated into North and East Africa carry derived EDAR alleles?

---

EDAR alleles would be more east asian than anything else ; west eurasians brought specific variants of the TCHH gene in Africa.

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku: 3 4 - You Said : "expansion of the derived allele C occured in Africa and it most likely occurred way before any SSA groups as we know them today existed". You dont see how this supports MY positions that both hair types existed on the a African continent before any Eurasians existed? Are you arguing the "Ancestral" allele existed in a population that existed "before Sub Saharan Africans as we know them today" but those humans were NOT on the African continent?
You are too smart to be this stupid. Take the glasses off. Racism lowers your IQ.

---

The thing is you can also say that it existed before any modern human existed so again it won't really contradict what I said in regards to straight hair not being brought by SSA populations. Like I said you don't really know exactly when did this C allele become widespread. We're talking about modern human groups and you know damn well that straight hair in SSA is due to eurasian admixture not some kind of preserved relic trait. And don't start with "racism" ...racism would be to act like those afrocentrists who claim that no mutations appeared outside of africa and that eurasians couldn't bring any of their mutations in Africa.

---

You didn't watch the video. Why would "Straight Hair" be brough by "Sub Saharan Africans" if its and adaptation to an environment that is uncommon or non existent in Sub Saharan Africa? If EDAR is not in Africa and West Eurasia then you shouldn't have brought it up. Also I didn't say straight hair existed before "Modern Humans" existed. I said it existed before MODERN *EURASIANS* existed. Thats you racist freudian slip.

Quoting you again.

"you know damn well that straight hair in SSA is due to eurasian admixture not some kind of preserved relic trait."

Hmm, didnt we make this mistake with curly hair? Didnt we make this mistake with dark skin tones? Didnt we make the mistake with light skin tones? Didnt we make this mistake will all types of Cranial affinities found outside of Africa that are similar to Africans? Now Is there ANY REGION INSIDE The African continent that has an environment NOT contusive to an adaptation of Curly hair? How long have humans been in that region?

And yes. Those people that make those comments about Eurasians diversity are racist, it makes them stupid. Its an illness.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:

You REALLY should watch this paying key attention the 35 minute mark. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT_HmUR8iuc
You need to learn the FUNCTION of phenotypical features you attribute to "Eurasia". All Eurasians dont even have Straight hair.


Curly AND Straight hair originate on the African continent, at a time where no "Eurasians" even exist.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:

You REALLY should watch this paying key attention the 35 minute mark. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT_HmUR8iuc
You need to learn the FUNCTION of phenotypical features you attribute to "Eurasia". All Eurasians dont even have Straight hair.


Curly AND Straight hair originate on the African continent, at a time where no "Eurasians" even exist.

---

She doesn't explain everything

she assumes here that humans come from an ancestors that had body hair.

If we look at other primates we see body hair and we see that it is straight.

So that could be a reasonable assumption

She assumes that humans had body hair but then lost it

What she does not address is why we lost it.

Scientists have various very different theories about it but nobody has proven the particular reason

I think that theories on the evolution of straight or curly hair may have to rely on (assuming that humans were once covered in fur)
why this fur was lost
and why it was retained by some mammals in their same environment

---

Humans STILL HAVE "Body Hair". How is it you have been here for SO LONG and we can spell things out in simplistic form yet you never have anything useful to say? WATCH THE VIDEO. If you have watched the video and still feel your criticism is valid then find a new hobby. Your brain is not built for this.

 

---

Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
You didn't watch the video. Why would "Straight Hair" be brough by "Sub Saharan Africans" if its and adaptation to an environment that is uncommon or non existent in Sub Saharan Africa? If EDAR is not in Africa and West Eurasia then you shouldn't have brought it up. Also I didn't say straight hair existed before "Modern Humans" existed. I said it existed before MODERN *EURASIANS* existed. Thats you racist freudian slip.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku: Hmm, didnt we make this mistake with curly hair? Didnt we make this mistake with dark skin tones? Didnt we make the mistake with light skin tones? Didnt we make this mistake will all types of Cranial affinities found outside of Africa that are similar to Africans? Now Is there ANY REGION INSIDE The African continent that has an environment NOT contusive to an adaptation of Curly hair? How long have humans been in that region?

And yes. Those people that make those comments about Eurasians diversity are racist, it makes them stupid. Its an illness. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
You didn't watch the video. Why would "Straight Hair" be brough by "Sub Saharan Africans" if its and adaptation to an environment that is uncommon or non existent in Sub Saharan Africa? If EDAR is not in Africa and West Eurasia then you shouldn't have brought it up. Also I didn't say straight hair existed before "Modern Humans" existed. I said it existed before MODERN *EURASIANS* existed. Thats you racist freudian slip.

---

Because you implied its presence there predates any other mutations in Eurasia and I told you that it also existed before SSA groups as we know them first appeared so at the end your intervention is useless. Egyptians having straight hair is not due to some kind of relic old african trait and modern ssa groups can't have straight hair without substantial amount of eurasian ancestry. I'm sure we both agree on this.

So to know where the ancestral allele first existed is meaningless.

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku: Hmm, didnt we make this mistake with curly hair? Didnt we make this mistake with dark skin tones? Didnt we make the mistake with light skin tones? Didnt we make this mistake will all types of Cranial affinities found outside of Africa that are similar to Africans? Now Is there ANY REGION INSIDE The African continent that has an environment NOT contusive to an adaptation of Curly hair? How long have humans been in that region?

And yes. Those people that make those comments about Eurasians diversity are racist, it makes them stupid. Its an illness.

---

The problem here is the timeframe ; if we strictly focus on historical periods then no we didn't make any mistakes. Obviously the oldest strains of mankind would have shown similarities with africans but this doesn't really concern our time period.

also are you implying that light skin might have appeared independently in Africa ? If yes can you post some sources ? [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:

You REALLY should watch this paying key attention the 35 minute mark. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT_HmUR8iuc
You need to learn the FUNCTION of phenotypical features you attribute to "Eurasia". All Eurasians dont even have Straight hair.


Curly AND Straight hair originate on the African continent, at a time where no "Eurasians" even exist.

---

She doesn't explain everything

she assumes here that humans come from an ancestors that had body hair.

If we look at other primates we see body hair and we see that it is straight.

So that could be a reasonable assumption

She assumes that humans had body hair but then lost it

What she does not address is why we lost it.

Scientists have various very different theories about it but nobody has proven the particular reason

I think that theories on the evolution of straight or curly hair may have to rely on (assuming that humans were once covered in fur)
why this fur was lost
and why it was retained by some mammals in their same environment

---

Humans STILL HAVE "Body Hair". How is it you have been here for SO LONG and we can spell things out in simplistic form yet you never have anything useful to say? WATCH THE VIDEO. If you have watched the video and still feel your criticism is valid then find a new hobby. Your brain is not built for this.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
Curly AND Straight hair originate on the African continent

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
I wish i had all the studies at my fingertips but i dont.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
East African and South Africa EXCEED THE FREQUENCY we would expect with a simple explanation of Admixture.

---

quote:

---

https://tinyurl.com/yc6y93t2

Distribution of Y-chromosomal SNP-haplogroups between males from Ethiopia
M. Kohl, 2009

From the 173 analysed males, also for 173 a classification could be made. Distributions between other 173 males were:
40 males (23.1% of analysed samples) belong to the haplogroup A*,
88 males (50.9%) were related to haplogroup E*,
43 (24.9%) to haplogroup J* and one male (0.6%) to each haplogroup F* and G*.

---

quote:

---

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Phylogenetic-tree-of-the-Y-chromosome-haplotypes-based-on-Y-Chromosome-Consortium-2002_fig1_8214295


Y chromosome haplogroups of elite Ethiopian endurance runners
Moran,2004

Fig 1
Ethiopian general population control sample, 26% haplogroup J

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
East African and South Africa EXCEED THE FREQUENCY we would expect with a simple explanation of Admixture.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:

There exist scenarios where early humans in Africa carried Ancestral variants for straighter hair. ]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:

There exist scenarios where early humans in Africa carried Ancestral variants for straighter hair. ]

---

can you believe this weak ass argument
"there exist scenarios"
take this L like a man

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SlimJim:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:

There exist scenarios where early humans in Africa carried Ancestral variants for straighter hair. ]

---

can you believe this weak ass argument
"there exist scenarios"
take this L like a man

---

Why not actually address the content of his post?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
Answer this questions:

1 - What is the evolutionary FUNCTION of kinky/curly hair?
2 - Now Is there ANY REGION INSIDE The African continent that has an environment NOT contusive to an adaptation of Kinky/Curly hair? How long is the record of human habitation in that region?

Please see the work from Nina Jablonski and Sarah Tishkoff regarding skin tones and African specific Dark AND LIGHT skin tone alleles that originated over 100 thousand years ago. Both of them have good stuff on youtube. You are going to have to search for ALL the skin tone papers on South Africans. IN ESSENCE all the instances of "Light SKin" and "Straight hair" you see in East African and South Africa EXCEED THE FREQUENCY we would expect with a simple explanation of Admixture. There is something peculiar about these regions and their environment that select for these features as well. Some of the studies even list the South African specific mutations. I wish i had all the studies at my fingertips but i dont. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thereal:
Interesting. Are planning to research anything to prove the lady wrong?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
AE having "Straight Hair" means some, or even the majority of their ancestors may come from a region where they adapted to an envoronment that would NOT favor the adaptation of curly hair.(Question #1)

This is of course if we investigate the Micro-Evolutionary function of curly hair and its specific purpose.

Then, We could also look at the shape of the Skeleton, the skull.... like their shape and size of their nasal cavity and investigate the specific function of the nasal cavity or a high nose bridge. This would indicate if certain phenotypical features are more appropriate for a specific climactic setting: Hot/Dry, Cold/Wet, Hot/Humid etc. In Both cases, Noses and hair, there exist regions in Africa that would favor or select for these features......some of those places are RIGHT in North Africa where humans go back some 350 thousand years.

No too love ago Lactose Persistence in Africa was explained by wandering Eurasians. We now have high resolution of this region of the genome and it indicates long term pressure among the genome of Africans and we have all these different variants.

You should go on YouTube and warch SOY Keitas videos on human variability in Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thereal:
Interesting. Are planning to research anything to prove the lady wrong?

---

I'm saying she did not say what beyoku says she said

And I'm also saying she does not explain everything fully not that she is saying something wrong

It's a Phd defense
on a topic that there has not been that much research testing on
and it's an area that researchers have very different theories about

---

quote:

---

The indigenous KhoeSan populations of far southern Africa have lighter skin than other sub-Saharan African populations, potentially reflecting local adaptation to a region of Africa with reduced UV radiation

---

quote:

---

The frequency of this allele (33 to 53%) is far greater than expected from colonial period European gene flow; however, the most common derived haplotype is identical among European, eastern African, and KhoeSan individuals.

---

quote:

---

Using both derived and background haplotypes in KhoeSan, we estimated a tMRCA of 22 kya (95% CI: 17 kya to 28 kya) for all individuals and 16 kya (95% CI: 12 kya to 20 kya) for individuals with the AA homozygote. In comparison, Europeans have a slightly younger tMRCA = 13 kya (using background haplotypes from LWK), although the CI range largely overlaps with the KhoeSan (95% CI: 7 kya to 33 kya). The Luhya have the oldest tMRCA = 27 kya (95% CI: 17 kya to 37 kya).

---

quote:

---

Additionally, the average European admixture is 12 to 17% in the ≠Khomani San and Nama. Using these estimates of global ancestry and the frequency of the allele in the source populations, we would predict a frequency of ∼15% for rs1426654*A under a model of migration and neutral evolution. The observed frequency of 33 to 53% in the ≠Khomani San and Nama is much higher than that expected from admixture alone.

---

quote:

---

Interestingly, the mean pigmentation of Nama and ‡Khomani individuals with <90% KhoeSan ancestry is not significantly different from individuals with >90% KhoeSan ancestry (p=0.94), although the variance is significantly greater in more admixed individuals (admixture from either/both European or Bantu ancestries, p=2.2e-3). These results suggest that while admixture increases phenotypic variance, pigmentation alleles on KhoeSan haplotypes contribute more to the overall heterogeneity than those on European or Bantu haplotypes. Consistent with this result, we observe substantial skin pigmentation variation among related individuals, which, coupled with high heritability (see below) suggests a role for large effect sizes of alleles contributing to pigmentation.

---

quote:

---

Three possible evolutionary scenarios that may explain these elevated frequencies are: 1) these variants arose in southern Africa more than 100,000 years ago and were later selected for in Europeans after the out-of-Africa migration in response to northern UVR environments. Alternatively, 2) these variants arose in Europe/Near East, were introduced into KhoeSan populations via “back to Africa” migration into southern Africa predating 17th century European colonialism

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
AE having "Straight Hair" means some, or even the majority of their ancestors may come from a region where they adapted to an envoronment that would NOT favor the adaptation of curly hair.(Question #1)

This is of course if we investigate the Micro-Evolutionary function of curly hair and its specific purpose.

Then, We could also look at the shape of the Skeleton, the skull.... like their shape and size of their nasal cavity and investigate the specific function of the nasal cavity or a high nose bridge. This would indicate if certain phenotypical features are more appropriate for a specific climactic setting: Hot/Dry, Cold/Wet, Hot/Humid etc. In Both cases, Noses and hair, there exist regions in Africa that would favor or select for these features......some of those places are RIGHT in North Africa where humans go back some 350 thousand years.

No too love ago Lactose Persistence in Africa was explained by wandering Eurasians. We now have high resolution of this region of the genome and it indicates long term pressure among the genome of Africans and we have all these different variants.

You should go on YouTube and warch SOY Keitas videos on human variability in Africa.

---

hahaha yes and I suppose light skin alleles in NA are simply an adaptation to their mediterranean climate as you said they were there for more than 350k years after all XD

anyway stop being dishonest like that because you're misleading the afrocentrist members who think you're defending the idea that straight hair among egyptians isn't indicative of eurasian ancestry and I think we both agree there aren't many places in Africa suited for straight hair if you absolutely want to focus on adaptation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
They COULD be, but we dont know the level of indigenous light skin alleles in North African populations, its also a derived Trait. Is Dark skin..... an ancestral allele, Among Egyptians indicate of Sub Saharan African ancestry? Is the phenotype of Natufian and their skin tones indicative of Sub Saharan African ancestry? [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:
@ beyoku

I do think it is possible that straighter or wavier hair may be indigenous to North Africa rather than being entirely a Eurasian import. But, having looked at the video you recommended, what would rule out a scenario of AMHs starting out with the "derived" C allele for curlier hair and then certain human populations reverting to the "ancestral" T allele for straighter hair? The T allele may be ancestral for primates, but I don't know if that means it has to be ancestral for Homo sapiens who emerged in Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:


@Brandon. You seem to be confusing the definition of "Ancestral" and "derived". In terms of skin tone the ancestral state existed before AMH and the derivied state of white people is more Recent. In terms of hair morphology, the Derivied distinction is something that happened later in AMH history. Late enough that OOA populations may not Have had it. Your question would be like asking if Sub Saharans reverted back to an ancestral state after being white and passing white skin to all OOA descendants. It makes no sense. There is no adaptive reasons for that in an Tropical Savahana adapted human.

The path of least resistance from a genetic standpoint. ALL Early humans were Dark skinned, some turned light. Likewise ALL early humans were straight haired (or at least some of the pens associated with OOA) , some went curly. [/QB]

---

No, Brandon understood the video
you didn't

and is he is talking about hair and you are talking about skin

get it together, focus




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT_HmUR8iuc
 

---

Posted by SlimJim (Member # 23217) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
AE having "Straight Hair" means some, or even the majority of their ancestors may come from a region where they adapted to an envoronment that would NOT favor the adaptation of curly hair.(Question #1)

This is of course if we investigate the Micro-Evolutionary function of curly hair and its specific purpose.

Then, We could also look at the shape of the Skeleton, the skull.... like their shape and size of their nasal cavity and investigate the specific function of the nasal cavity or a high nose bridge. This would indicate if certain phenotypical features are more appropriate for a specific climactic setting: Hot/Dry, Cold/Wet, Hot/Humid etc. In Both cases, Noses and hair, there exist regions in Africa that would favor or select for these features......some of those places are RIGHT in North Africa where humans go back some 350 thousand years.

No too love ago Lactose Persistence in Africa was explained by wandering Eurasians. We now have high resolution of this region of the genome and it indicates long term pressure among the genome of Africans and we have all these different variants.

You should go on YouTube and warch SOY Keitas videos on human variability in Africa.

---

hahaha yes and I suppose light skin alleles in NA are simply an adaptation to their mediterranean climate as you said they were there for more than 350k years after all XD

anyway stop being dishonest like that because you're misleading the afrocentrist members who think you're defending the idea that straight hair among egyptians isn't indicative of eurasian ancestry and I think we both agree there aren't many places in Africa suited for straight hair if you absolutely want to focus on adaptation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
South Asia has very few nappy haired indigenous folk.
South America has no indigenous nappy hair.

Europe has very curly and even crispy hair types.


Sheep (a non-Afr/Melanese species) have ulotrichous fur.
Any other nappy haired animals?

Something more is behind hair texture than environment.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SlimJim:
It’s not as simple as more Eurasian = Wavier hair, and there definitely are certain environments in Africa that would favour wavier hair. Not just in North Africa but probably the Horn too, Somalis have a significantly higher incidence of wavy/straight hair than Habesha/Ethio Semitic people who are objectively more non African. I’ve personally noticed that Afars have a higher incidence of wavy hair than Highland Semitic speakers, even though they are nearly genetically indistinguishable, and I believe it’s largely due to Afars occupying the Danakil desert, which could be compared to the Somali desert and the Sahara. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SlimJim:
It’s not as simple as more Eurasian = Wavier hair, and there definitely are certain environments in Africa that would favour wavier hair. Not just in North Africa but probably the Horn too, Somalis have a significantly higher incidence of wavy/straight hair than Habesha/Ethio Semitic people who are objectively more non African. I’ve personally noticed that Afars have a higher incidence of wavy hair than Highland Semitic speakers, even though they are nearly genetically indistinguishable, and I believe it’s largely due to Afars occupying the Danakil desert, which could be compared to the Somali desert and the Sahara.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT_HmUR8iuc

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
You are creating a dichotomy between "Sub Saharans" and "Eurasians" in reference to a population which is neither, nor a composite of the two, acting as if they in and of themselves dont exist.
/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
You are creating a dichotomy between "Sub Saharans" and "Eurasians" in reference to a population which is neither, nor a composite of the two, acting as if they in and of themselves dont exist.
/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
[QB]

Still waiting for viewpoints. Whatsamatta? Too hard to consider?
All people of tropical environs do not have ulotrichous hair.
African non-human animals do not have ulotrichous hair.

Human skin colour and hair texture are not inextricably linked. Tar black south Asians have straight/slightly wavy hair. The majority of 'Australians' no matter how black do not have ulotrichous hair. 'Click' speakers apparently have the most ulotrichous hair and their skin is yellow brown (lighter toned than the Inner African average).


Whatever their contribution, ulotrichous hair is not due to global environmental factors.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] They'll never answer you, at least not until another Dog Whistling Bio-Diversity DNA study is published with sensationalist titles to get the media in a frenzy.

Don't forget, no black exists except the Blubbery Lipped SS-African confined into their magical barrier of SSA. (other Sources proving otherwise be damned)

Asia, Americas, and ever inch of land above their magical barrier is devoid of any trace or semblance of a black, according to bidiversity 101 scholarship.

As Beyoku(who's more versied and aquainted with Biodiversity revisonism) pointed out the irony of it all, yet the biodiversity scholars have successfully hoodwinked academia with their dog-whistles and Neo-Hamite fantasy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:
@ beyoku

I do think it is possible that straighter or wavier hair may be indigenous to North Africa rather than being entirely a Eurasian import. But, having looked at the video you recommended, what would rule out a scenario of AMHs starting out with the "derived" C allele for curlier hair and then certain human populations reverting to the "ancestral" T allele for straighter hair? The T allele may be ancestral for primates, but I don't know if that means it has to be ancestral for Homo sapiens who emerged in Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:


@Brandon. You seem to be confusing the definition of "Ancestral" and "derived". In terms of skin tone the ancestral state existed before AMH and the derived state of white people is more Recent. In terms of hair morphology, the Derivied distinction is something that happened later in AMH history. Late enough that OOA populations may not Have had it. Your question would be like asking if Sub Saharans reverted back to an ancestral state after being white and passing white skin to all OOA descendants. It makes no sense. There is no adaptive reasons for that in an Tropical Savahana adapted human.

The path of least resistance from a genetic standpoint. ALL Early humans were Dark skinned, some turned light. Likewise ALL early humans were straight haired (or at least some of the pens associated with OOA) , some went curly.

---

No, Brandon understood the video
you didn't

and is he is talking about hair and you are talking about skin

get it together, focus




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT_HmUR8iuc [/QB]

---

You are so slow. SMH
Look at your map.
-The markers she spoke of showed that Straight hair is an *ancestral* trait..
-The oldest human fossils are found in a region where the ancestral Trait is dominant.
-Even Mandinka, Yoruba, and Kenyan Bantu carry the ANCESTRAL trait at a level not indicative of Admixture with "Eurasians".
-The Northern Route of OOA (Egypt) shows a high incidence of the Ancestral Trait.
-Autochthonous North Africans mixing with West Asians would likely be of other humans that have homogeneity of the Ancestral Trait.

SOMEWHERE IN AFRICA......according to this individuals research, a derived trait was born. Africans with the Ancestral trait could influence regions with the derived trait PRIOR to Eurasians even existing.

That's it. Ancient North Africans dont need to get Straight hair from Eurasians because it is an ANCESTRAL allele and they are an ANCESTRAL POPULATION....they dont need a Derived populations to get an ancestral trait.
Someone help me out, what is the TMRCA of "Ancestral Northern African" and when did it split from MOTA?

Nearly every new study is indicating the composite nature of North African and equitorial genomes as well as the African multiregional nature of AMH.


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:


-The markers she spoke of showed that Straight hair is an *ancestral* trait..

-The oldest human fossils are found in a region where the ancestral Trait is dominant.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:

-Even Mandinka, Yoruba, and Kenyan Bantu carry the ANCESTRAL trait at a level not indicative of Admixture with "Eurasians".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:

-The Northern Route of OOA (Egypt) shows a high incidence of the Ancestral Trait.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:

-Autochthonous North Africans mixing with West Asians would likely be of other humans that have homogeneity of the Ancestral Trait.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:

SOMEWHERE IN AFRICA......according to this individuals research, a derived trait was born. Africans with the Ancestral trait could influence regions with the derived trait PRIOR to Eurasians even existing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
Ancient North Africans dont need to get Straight hair from Eurasians because it is an ANCESTRAL allele and they are an ANCESTRAL POPULATION....they dont need a Derived populations to get an ancestral trait.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:

Nearly every new study is indicating the composite nature of North African and equitorial genomes as well as the African multiregional nature of AMH.

[/QB]

---

You are showing us a chart here that shows ancient Taforalt Moroccans 46% Non-African
and Agaw, Cushitic speakers in Ethiopia 41% Non-African

If you see any straight or wavy straight hair in Africans today that is either due to admixture with non-Africans or a hypothetical continuity in situ, from a theoretical earlier pre-curled straight haired African population

So even if there is in situ African continuity that has lasted up until the present one would have to have some way of accurate way of distinguishing that from Africans with recent mixed ancestry with Arabs, East Indians or Europeans etc
This applies to that map form the video, those small blue slices within the orange pies
(and notably the blue is absent in the central African pies that are away from the coast)
She does not go into the samples, the strait haired blue trait there in South Africa is likely due to the Europeans there)
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
OK everybody's afraid of gorilla in the room -- the absense of coily hair in tropical Americas and the straight hair of the extinct black skinned California Indians, etc.

So let's see about something mangled in this discussion. There is no one region of Africa can claim to be the birthplace of Hss.
Homo sapiens sapiens has no direct ladder or tree like evolution, we're more like a bush they say now days. I'd just say there's much intertangling. I prefer the trellis model while retaining at least two OoA Homo overall replacement departures. One for the super successful Homo erectus (1.8Mya-30Kya) and one for us.


According to this



the ancestral trait for hair texture ie 'straight' among Inner Africans (Tropic of Cancer to the Cape of Good Hope) is highest in the Bight of Benin region, home of the Yoruba.

This region is called 'white man's grave' because inhospitable to whites

quote:

---

Beware, beware the Bight of the Benin, for few come out though many go in. A variation goes: Beware beware, the Bight of Benin: one comes out, where fifty went in!

---

ergo no settler colonies there of any people remotely white. Southwestern Nigeria rs310644 T allele apparently does not come from admixture with Berbers, Europeans, or Arabs.

Over on the Swahili coast there's documented admixture with various Gulf Arabs. Yet the ancestral allele frequency there is the least for Lasisi's reported Inner Africans.


What exactly does dual colors mean for a population? The corridor from the Gulf to SW Central Asia has very significant



derived percentages. The location that looks to be somewhere in China is nearly 50%. Are there notices of copious coily haired groups or individuals there? Same for the Bight of Benin, any notices of 'straight' hair matching the freq of the ancestral T allele?

Assuming they are pools of individuals, how are bi-colored circles to be interpreted?
Is there a local population percentage tip off toward one pole or the other.
Must a population's allelic frequency be greater than 50% for the full phenotype to display?
What does hair neither coily nor straight register in terms of ancestral and derived alleles?
How are these T and C alleles actually expressed in hair texture phenotypes of neither pole?
Can one have either allele while expressing neither?
 

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Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 


If a specimen is half caucasian hair and half african hair how does one tell if it is either or the other.
_____________________________________________


What is also interesting is male pattern baldness. I will be excited to see what Lasissi has for us in the future on this subject.

Native Americans men have no male pattern baldness, beards, mustaches or chest hair. Mbuti & Khoisan from what I have observed do not have male pattern baldness. Yoruba have "east african" male pattern baldness





caucasian/mediterranean
There are three basic types of Caucasian or Mediterranean region baldness patterns. Ebling, who developed classifications for particular ethnic groups, suggested the five stages of balding for these three hair types as shown below.

The first type is the Latin version which initially involves recession of the frontline of hair, followed by thinning in the vertex. The frontal hairline continues to recede as the balding in the crown enlarges until the two blend into an expanded Type V pattern.





The second baldness type is Semitic (Jewish, Arabian). This variety proceeds from the front and slowly works backward until the entire top of the head is without hair. There does not seem to be as much early thinning in the vertex as we see in Caucasians.





The final kind is the Nordic This starts with a bald patch in the back as well as temporal thinning in the front. There is sometimes a central lock of surviving hair which may also disappear with advanced balding.





While the numbers are different according to different surveys, it appears that either Greece, Macedonia, or the Czech Republic has the highest rate of baldness in the world. These nations each have over 40% of men with acute hair loss.

japan, korea and the rest of east asia
People of East Asian descent and especially Japanese, experience hair loss at one of the lowest rates in the world, and start much later in life than other places. Those that do lose hair, generally, start in their 40s and 50s rather than their 20s and 30s.

East Asians are furthest from the Mediterranean region and also have the lowest rate of baldness which does not seem to be an accident. Incidentally, their baldness rate can range from 20% to the low 30s, which is still a significant portion of the population.

africa and the middle east
Generally, the closer the population is to the Mediterranean Sea, the higher the rates of male pattern baldness. People from countries in northern Africa have very high percentages of baldness, from the high 30s to the low 40% range. These individuals generally either have the Semitic or Latin baldness variation, depending on whether they have more Arab roots or more mixed roots.

Men from sub-Saharan Africa have about an average level of baldness, ranging in the mid 30% rate. They have a mix of the Semitic and Latin hair loss patterns.

iran
While Iranians are in the Middle East, they have a peculiarly high rate of baldness, greater than many other countries in the region. Their population edges on 40% with male pattern baldness. This interesting twist is noted by genealogists that study the movement of peoples in the region.




Kwame Nkrumah & Hallie Selassie while looking very different really had the same balding pattern, I found it very interesting





typical yoruba type balding, Also seen this type of balding in the Luo Western Nilotes who are majority E1b1a. Old pictures of African Americans/ and Memes like Uncle Tom show this type of East African balding. But I see many AA's now who have North West European type balding from Admixture of course.


 

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Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:


-The markers she spoke of showed that Straight hair is an *ancestral* trait..

-The oldest human fossils are found in a region where the ancestral Trait is dominant.

---

- Yes human remains were found Morocco dated to 315,000 years ago

- Yes, today the Maghreb has a lot of straight haired people

seriously? You are using this as an argument?

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:

-Even Mandinka, Yoruba, and Kenyan Bantu carry the ANCESTRAL trait at a level not indicative of Admixture with "Eurasians".

---

you are just making this up
show us any source that records this straight haired ancestral trait in Mandinka, Yoruba, and Kenyan Bantu

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:

-The Northern Route of OOA (Egypt) shows a high incidence of the Ancestral Trait.

---

yes plenty of the straight hair ancestral straight hair there and plenty of history of foreign occupation. Saunier 2009 lists 12 mitochondrial haplogroups in modern Egyptians, the highest frequency, R0

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:

-Autochthonous North Africans mixing with West Asians would likely be of other humans that have homogeneity of the Ancestral Trait.

---

stop the double talk please
As soon as you say "would likely"
that means you have no evidence

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:

SOMEWHERE IN AFRICA......according to this individuals research, a derived trait was born. Africans with the Ancestral trait could influence regions with the derived trait PRIOR to Eurasians even existing.

---

you can't even talk about the topic openly as she does in the video. You avoid saying "curled hair" and "straight hair" but this is what her whole video and was about in addition to ancestral traits related to it

you say "Africans with the Ancestral trait could influence regions..."

Could have, may have, probably
all of that is speculation

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
Ancient North Africans dont need to get Straight hair from Eurasians because it is an ANCESTRAL allele and they are an ANCESTRAL POPULATION....they dont need a Derived populations to get an ancestral trait.

---

whenever I hear "they don't need" in discussions like this it's a political taint

It's as if straight hair is some kind of achievement or talent

Yet straight is less suited to dry and dessert environments as Tina Lasisi's analysis shows, the simple fact that your head gets hotter with straight hair as compared to springy curled hair

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:

Nearly every new study is indicating the composite nature of North African and equitorial genomes as well as the African multiregional nature of AMH.

---

You are showing us a chart here that shows ancient Taforalt Moroccans 46% Non-African
and Agaw, Cushitic speakers in Ethiopia 41% Non-African

If you see any straight or wavy straight hair in Africans today that is either due to admixture with non-Africans or a hypothetical continuity in situ, from a theoretical earlier pre-curled straight haired African population

So even if there is in situ African continuity that has lasted up until the present one would have to have some way of accurate way of distinguishing that from Africans with recent mixed ancestry with Arabs, East Indians or Europeans etc
This applies to that map form the video, those small blue slices within the orange pies
(and notably the blue is absent in the central African pies that are away from the coast)
She does not go into the samples, the strait haired blue trait there in South Africa is likely due to the Europeans there) [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
"Why hypothesize something more rare (back mutation) than continuity and claim that it's not politically or bias driven?"

Because they correlate with eurasian ancestry even in environnement where there shouldn't be any kind of pressure to maintain it.

Go ahead and show me a single SSA population with straight hair and negligible amount of eurasian ancestry. Good luck.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
1st of all, you're talking about two separate subject matters as if it's a single point. "Kind of pressure to maintain it" why does it seem like you really don't understand what you're talking about. Equatorial African populations at-least since OOA had been selecting for higher curvature or been under that selection pressure. Why would you make such a stupid comment and even for a brief second view it as a legitimate challenge.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro: "Find me a single a single scandinavian population that's black." -- The equivalent.

---

quote:

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you are just making this up show us any source that records this straight haired ancestral trait in Mandinka, Yoruba, and Kenyan Bantu

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This is AFTER you posted the graphic that contained the actual DATA and its right in front of your face. You been here for THIS long and dont know anything. You dont know the standard Human Genome Diversity Project (HGDP) African sample of Kenyan Bantu, Biaka, Mandenka, Mbuti pygmy, Mozabite, San, and Yoruba . How do you NOT know this? How do you see the image, and see the circles on the map but somehow CANT match the "Mandinka" to that circle in Senegambia? You cant match the Yoruba to that sample over Nigeria? Do you NOT KNOW where these locations are on the African map? Do we REALLY have to start teaching you "From Scratch"?



Your comments are utter foolishness and reduce the collective IQ of the Site.

@Antalas See the Above image, See the allele frequency in Mandinka, Yoruba and Luhya.
You keep dodging questions.
1 - WHY do you keep saying it correlates with Eurasian ancestry if it existed before Eurasians existed because its an ANCESTRAL Trait. Given your previous question regarding skin color, I am thinking you dont understand what "Ancestral trait" means.
2 - Does Dark skin in North Africa correlate to Sub Saharan Ancestry?
3 - What is the evolutionary function of curly hair according to that thesis? The fact you keep dodging this question indicates you still haven't watched the video.
 

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Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
1st of all, you're talking about two separate subject matters as if it's a single point. "Kind of pressure to maintain it" why does it seem like you really don't understand what you're talking about. Equatorial African populations at-least since OOA had been selecting for higher curvature or been under that selection pressure. Why would you make such a stupid comment and even for a brief second view it as a legitimate challenge.

---

Seems like you didn't understand me : no matter since when equatorial african populations have been selecting for such feature there are still populations who evolved in similar environnement yet didn't end up with the same type of hair and it happen that they also carry important amount of eurasian ancestry so according to your logic if we postulate that it's most likely due to that type of ancestry then we're "biased" or "politically motivated" and instead we should simply view it as the ancestral allele being maintained for whatever reason...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro: "Find me a single a single scandinavian population that's black." -- The equivalent.

---

Yes the equivalent if I had claimed that there are black skinned scandinavians without recent african ancestry.

---

Bruh..the original Scandinavians carried dark skinned.................BECAUSE ITS AN ANCESTRAL TRAIT. SMH. This is NOT funny anymore.


 

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Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
Bruh..the original Scandinavians carried dark skinned.................BECAUSE ITS AN ANCESTRAL TRAIT. SMH. This is NOT funny anymore.

[/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
Bruh..the original Scandinavians carried dark skinned.................BECAUSE ITS AN ANCESTRAL TRAIT. SMH. This is NOT funny anymore.

---

I was obviously talking about modern scandinavians ...smh [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:

@Antalas See the Above image, See the allele frequency in Mandinka, Yoruba and Luhya.
You keep dodging questions.
1 - WHY do you keep saying it correlates with Eurasian ancestry if it existed before Eurasians existed because its an ANCESTRAL Trait. Given your previous question regarding skin color, I am thinking you dont understand what "Ancestral trait" means.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku: 2 - Does Dark skin in North Africa correlate to Sub Saharan Ancestry?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku: 3 - What is the evolutionary function of curly hair according to that thesis? The fact you keep dodging this question indicates you still haven't watched the video. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
Do Modern Scandinavians live in a region conducive to dark skin? Didnt we JUST see skin tone data from Neolithic and Bronze Age Irish and even Imperial ROMANS that showed how dark skin persisted? [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
Do Modern Scandinavians live in a region conducive to dark skin? Didnt we JUST see skin tone data from Neolithic and Bronze Age Irish and even Imperial ROMANS that showed how dark skin persisted?

---

Yes but If today I find a few scandinavians with dark skin should I logically conclude they are mixed or pretend they might actually be fully scandinavian and dark skin still persist today because of those ancestral alleles ?

According to elmaestro if I don't find the second option plausible then I'm biased, politcally motivated and anti-black. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
Bruh..the original Scandinavians carried dark skinned.................BECAUSE ITS AN ANCESTRAL TRAIT. SMH. This is NOT funny anymore.

---

I was obviously talking about modern scandinavians ...smh

---

Do Modern Scandinavians live in a region conducive to dark skin? Didnt we JUST see skin tone data from Neolithic and Bronze Age Irish and even Imperial ROMANS that showed how dark skin persisted?

---

Ancient (in this case mesolithic) Scandinavians were a blend of at least two separate populations (WHG and EHG) whereof some were dark skinned but others not. As some of the Motala hunter gatherers who had affinity for light skin and hair. So at least 8000 years ago you could find light skinned, and light haired people in Scandinavia.



Later immigrations further increased the proportion of light skin and light hair.

In the neolithic most Scandinavians were not dark skinned (at least not in Sweden) anymore.

From the bronze age we have direct evidence (not only genetic) of blonde hair in Danish barrows.
 

---

Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
This is a stupid point when we're clearly referencing centuries of continuity.
The issue is your challenging point makes no sense. You asked for a POPULATION of sub saharan Africans with straight hair I ask for a POPULATION of Scandinavians with dark skin. Neither exists today because the ancestral traits were swept. How can you not even understand the simplest of concepts.

Use the same equivalencies when looking at neolithic individuals Beyoku referenced above... Do you think all the dark skinned neolithic scandinavians were that way because of African ancestry???? Use the same logic when dealing with African populations who didn't reside in areas with HEAVY selection pressure for more hair curvature.

why are you being dense? [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
This is a stupid point when we're clearly referencing centuries of continuity.
The issue is your challenging point makes no sense. You asked for a POPULATION of sub saharan Africans with straight hair I ask for a POPULATION of Scandinavians with dark skin. Neither exists today because the ancestral traits were swept. How can you not even understand the simplest of concepts.

Use the same equivalencies when looking at neolithic individuals Beyoku referenced above... Do you think all the dark skinned neolithic scandinavians were that way because of African ancestry???? Use the same logic when dealing with African populations who didn't reside in areas with HEAVY selection pressure for more hair curvature.

why are you being dense?

---

Who denied this ? That's not the point. The point is : what should we conclude from ancient egyptians having straight hair while their nubian neighbours had the opposite pattern despite both evolving in the same kind of environnement ?

You guys are trying to push the stupid idea that it is not necessarily indicative of eurasian ancestry while it obviously is at least for that time period. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
@ Antalas:


Most Nubians had the SAME type hair that Egyptians had.

Discussed here over 10 years ago. The Screenshots are missing but do us a favor and read all the pages of the thread.

Also do Taforalt, Early Neolithic Moroccans and Natufian have Sub Saharan Admixture?

---

Alright I'll check the thread and I was talking based on the skulls from kerma like this one :



or the mummy of the nubian maiherpri :




As for taforalt/IAM and Natufian they actually had a SSA-like component yes what's your point ?
 

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Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Throw a rock in the air and hear a pig squeal when it lands...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
[QB] [What are you talking about ? "black" is like "east asian" "amerindian" "european" so yes it's only found in a specific area and physical similarities do not define it.

---

quote:

---

It's ancestry/genes that define what is black and what isn't.

---

quote:

---

I can find north african looking people in afghanistan, europe or latin america it doesn't mean we're the same people or that I should call them "north african".

---

quote:

---

It seems like you hate your west african background and try to claim people who clearly haven't much to do with you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
This discussion is barely worth having but okay lets have fun with this... when was the time period in North Africa (for example) when straight hair wasn't indicative of Eurasian ancestry? And how would you know? [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Throw a rock in the air and hear a pig squeal when it lands...

Stop playing games and wasting time, Historically, Black was and has never been confined to any specific region and has been used as a descriptor for darker skinned people all over the globe.

Only Supremists- both Euro-Pale White and Med off Brown White Arab tried to confine it to Africans in order to justify their religious sanctioned enslaving.


such a silly and stupid ideology that tries to downplay the interaction between various Africans all over the continent.

No one is saying that all people under the label of "Black" are the same, but that historically they existed under that label. Yet You literally call these people "MENA" when it suits you

You don't know anything about me or who I hate/claim. Just another bio-divisity neo-Hamite trying to tell Africans how to think and act. Literally judging the lived experience of people on your whims and bias.

---

Just stop being ridiculous like that ...SMH You can come to Europe or Africa and ask people what black identity is and you'll probably have a shock. Only americans reduce it to skin color and lump all sorts of people who clearly have nothing to do with each other.


You also completely contradict yourself : If it's only a question of skin color why Are these people considered "black" in your country ?





You know damn well why AAs and especially afrocentrists are quick to call any dark skinned people "black" don't be a hypocrite. Why do you think they are so aggressive at defending the blackness of Egypt despite claiming "We don't claim these are our ancestors" or are triggered when horners refused to identify as black ? And I might use the term "MENA" but still I do not feel any kind of kinship with these people nor do I talk in terms of "MENA civilizations" as if it was my heritage or something I can be proud of.

I repeat and you can ask any non-american if you don't believe me : People think of black africans when you mention "black" certainly not any dark skinned people.

Also if it was only about skin color what's the point ? What do south indians and nigerians share in common ? Same levels of melanin ? LOL
You base identity on history, ancestors, culture, etc certainly not similar levels of melanin that's only in the US and its specific social context.
 

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Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 
Yes African Americans have lost their original history and cultures, so they can only identify through their skin color, not so much else. That is probably also why some of them try to claim other peoples (who happens to be dark skinned) cultures and achievements, so they will not feel so rootless and alone in the world.
 

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Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Antalas...

I suggest you quit using Chendall's pic for any of your posts.

Don't make me sic that child's agent/lawyer on this website...
 

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Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
Yes African Americans have lost their original history and cultures, so they can only identify through their skin color, not so much else. That is probably also why some of them try to claim other peoples (who happens to be dark skinned) cultures and achievements, so they will not feel so rootless and alone in the world.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
@ Antalas:


Most Nubians had the SAME type hair that Egyptians had.

Discussed here over 10 years ago. The Screenshots are missing but do us a favor and read all the pages of the thread.

Also do Taforalt, Early Neolithic Moroccans and Natufian have Sub Saharan Admixture?

---

Alright I'll check the thread and I was talking based on the skulls from kerma like this one :



or the mummy of the nubian maiherpri :




As for taforalt/IAM and Natufian they actually had a SSA-like component yes what's your point ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:

The problem is you dont know anything about black people and Black peoples hair. That is not the hair type you think it is. [/QB]

---

Whatever we're far from this :







 

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Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
"For decades, many Egyptians have been straightening their hair to fit a conservative, Western-influenced beauty standard. Many younger Egyptians are rejecting all that."

Curly hair makes a come back in Egypt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bzbFgc0Us4


Apr 15, 2022

quote:

---

A hair-raising history of straightening
Straightening hair dates back as far as ancient Egypt, where flat iron plates were used to straighten unruly hair. A method which more than not resulted in burns – ouch! The desirable straight hairstyle was popular throughout many periods in history

---

Tunisians




Egyptian




https://www.egypttoday.com/Article/15/45669/How-I-came-to-love-my-afro-curly-hair

How I came to love my afro curly hair


https://cristianarang-journalism.medium.com/the-freedom-of-natural-curls-egypts-silent-rebellion-4cbcb1c04788

quote:

---

CAIRO — There is a TV ad from the 1980s that some Egyptians remember well: Two women face a mirror, one with thick dark curls and the other with sleek, shiny hair.
“I have curly hair,” says the first, pouting as she struggles with a comb. “I would like to style it well for this wedding.”
“Curly hair is not a problem,” the other woman reassures her. “Come on, we still have time.”

After applying the Glatt Schwarzkopf Straightening Cream, the first woman appears again in front of the mirror, with the comb that glides easily through her straightened hair. “My hair is beautiful,” he say

---

quote:

---

For decades, many Egyptian women listened to the message and diligently straightened their curls, while men cut them short, thereby suppressing its natural texture as it was considered disheveled and impure.

---

Hadja Lahbib will succeed Sophie Wilmès as Foreign Affairs Minister,

( a trained eye sees the straightened hair on Hadja. Her natural hair is very coarse her edges are showing) she has black african hair type




Egyptian Curly Hair Salon





What's old is new again










My hair texture exactly
 

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Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
In a way AAs have "lost" a part of our history, so it has created problems in its own aspects. At the same time identity by skin color has nothing to do with the history of slavery in the Americas and with the European colonial history the was imposed not only on AAs and Diaspora blacks but the whole world.

Identity by color was imposed on various dark and white skinned people all over the world.

Stop pretending it was AAs who called folks from India to the Phillipines as Blacks...

Arabs did a "lite" version of skin identity racial categorization when they invaded other cultures in the old world, shifting their imaginary "Bilad Es Sudan" to incorporate many non "SSAs"

Now suddenly you all want to switch up almost 200+ years of social interaction and identity, and want to bash AAs...Really?

Stop trying to bash low hanging fruit, represent your Swedish/Scandanavian ancestors with respect. Their Viking culture laid the foundation for an inclusive Christianity that included and saw the inner light of Women/Africans when they migrated to England and later formed the society of Friends

quote:

---

Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
Yes African Americans have lost their original history and cultures, so they can only identify through their skin color, not so much else. That is probably also why some of them try to claim other peoples (who happens to be dark skinned) cultures and achievements, so they will not feel so rootless and alone in the world.

---

 

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Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
^^^^^ This is why African Americans are the most consequential African people in the diaspora. African American women led this natural hair movement in the last 20 years. Also, Afro Punk and Social Media was an incredible way to show off natural hair styles and afrocentric fashions.


Here is an Egyptian woman



 

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Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
They love to bash AAs their token low hanging fruit, trying to pretend we pushed Racial skin identity on the world.

Non Latin Europeans from England, France, Germany to Russia looked to the Greeks and Romans from the end of the Empire to Modern day as inspiration for their Academic, Architectural and Cultural inspiration.

The Japanese and Koreans send ambassadors to China to learn from the Middle Kingdom.

Africans looking to A. Egypt as inspiration are bashed and shamed.

Ancient Egypt was an African civilzation created by African people and no amount of Bio-Diversity dog whistiling Neo-Hamiticism revision will change that.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Yah really like who don't know the AfrAms rule the cultural world with everybody imitating their lingo fashion music mannerisms etc all over the whole wide world.


AfrAms took on Black as ethnic identifier after the other Americans cast ridicule and shame on black skin. "Say it loud I'm Black and I'm proud" was the motto that inspired a self-determined ethnic identity.

Here a black hating Swede who encounters no individual blacks on a daily basis less lone numbers of blacks in predominantly black areas and has no black sweetheart or relatives wants to be great white master and tell Blacks who and what they are. Them days long gone. Indeed the Rising Tide of Colour is witness to the Passing of the [so-called] Great Race.


You wish Sweden had half the global impact AfrAms do. Your inferiority complex shows in your constant caterwauling.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
[/qb]

---

The problem is you dont know anything about black people and Black peoples hair. That is not the hair type you think it is. [/QB][/QUOTE]
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
MONA ABDOU
12 OCTOBER 2021

c. Chris Ghinda | UNSPLASH
“You’re like a Sunsilk advert” is a common jab among Egyptian youth, a way to call someone artificial without the heady confrontation to follow. It’s a nod to decades of Eurocentric beauty standards, of heat-straightened hair and loathing curls. Egyptians have tangoed with the risk of keeping their hair curly, only to be deemed disheveled and irresponsible by those closest to them.
“‘You look like you just came out of a sewer’” is a comment Mohamed Tonsy recalled receiving, upon being asked by Egyptian Streets; it was an unsolicited statement, hidden under the guise of goodwill and humor. Tonsy is one example of how young Egyptians are dealt a critical, if not hostile, eye for embracing an otherwise benign facet of their personal style.

From employers overlooking candidates for their “messy” and “unkempt” hair, to teachers encouraging students to get rid of the frizz: it’s no surprise that many Egyptians have chosen to heed expectations instead. Hoping to avoid similar comments, they’ve taken to cropping their hair short or leaning on flat-irons and perms for quick fixes for decades.

“Constantly told […] it looks like steel wool and I should use it to scrub dishes” – @adhamsfro

“Should I get you a lice comb?’” Abdelwahab Badawy, a 24-year-old engineering student, recalled being asked by a friend. In an interview with the New York Times, he mentions the mockery he received from family and professors alike when he decided to finally grow out his hair. The trend of being taunted is not limited to close acquaintances and lighthearted jokes, either.

“You look like the devil,” Nour El Din Sherif was told by an elder. Despite reassuring Egyptian Streets that he’s also been praised for his hair, charged comments like this are nothing if not commonplace for many like him.

It’s no surprise that, like Badawy and Sherif, most of today’s generation is rejecting all of it: the heat, the faux-waves, and the split-ends; Egyptians have taken back control of their natural curls, and they’re enjoying every moment of it. Inspired by Myriam Faris’ big-hair in the early 2000s, to the free-tumbling of Mohamed Salah’s frizz, Egypt is finding new love for the bounce and volume of the afro.

“The classic: ‘try running a brush through your hair’ by some elders” – @ameenarifaat

When asked by Egyptian Streets, Ameena Rifaat, a 22-year-old architectural engineering student, emphasized that it was a long, arduous journey to loving her hair.

“Ever since I was [young]. I battled with myself,” Rifaat says. “I grew up with a large group of girls, most of whom had straight or wavy hair. So easy to style, flip, run your hands through.”

Unlike the effortless look most of her friends boasted, Rifaat was keenly aware of her own perceived shortcomings. Despite having a supportive family, who encouraged self-love above all else, she noted that others’ comments were far less gracious about her frizz and flyaways.

“I always heard the phrases such as ‘run a brush through your hair’ or ‘pull your hair up in a bun, it’s too frizzy’ and a lot more,” Rifaat confides. Despite all of it, however, she maintains appreciation for her hair. “I love my hair, and I wouldn’t have it any other way.”

quote:

---

Ahmed Sayed, 26, a photographer and engineering student in Cairo, used to comb or blow-dry his hair straight and gel it to keep it that way. Every time he washed before praying, he had to redo the whole process, go to the hairdresser, or just leave it tousled

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

Africans looking to A. Egypt as inspiration are bashed and shamed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Ancient Egypt was an African civilzation created by African people and no amount of Bio-Diversity dog whistiling Neo-Hamiticism revision will change that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
[QB] That would be like a japanese saying "Sumer was an asian civilization created by asian people and no amount of Bio-Diversity dog whistiling eurocentric revision will change that"

---

quote:

---

Why don't you take inspiration in your west african ancestors ? Why this obsession with a people and area which have nothing to do with you ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:


Greek/Latin Europeans get to be an inspiration to Germanic peoples

Sino-Centric culture with China as literal Center of the Earth is inpiration for Far East and even South East Asians.Africans do it, it becomes a problem.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: I can take inspiration from whom ever I want.......

who are you or any bio-diversity huckster to tell me otherwise or question me.

You'll never change this historical fact of the African origin, connection, ran and istituted nature of Ancient Egypt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
[Greeks and romans influenced the rest of europe culturally and were genetically close to the rest of europeans same can be said about China and its neighbours now what does a west african like you with your american culture has to do with ancient egyptians ?

---

quote:

---

Ancient egypt did not influence your ancestral area nor were they genetically related to your ancestors.

---

quote:

---

You have absolutely no reason to claim it or to see it as some kind of panafrican ancient civilization the same way a japanese has no reason to claim or obsess over phoenicia or Sumer.

---

quote:

---

My own fucking ancestors had almost nothing to do with egypt let alone yours lol

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
You can but you have no rights to impose your ideology on it and claim all sorts of false things about it. Trying to make it "african" won't change anything of what I just said. [/qb]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Who are you to question and dictate me...

Im not your abid little man.

Ive been posting here and researching Africana including A. Egypt since 2007, and rest assured Ill be here when you leave.

Ill call out your distortions, Strawman arguments, straight out of Stormfront Selective Spams of True N-GGEr Nubian images, and neo-Hamite BS revisionism.

Ill say it again so it can sink in...

Every time you post a dog whistling DNA study

Call folks "Hoteps"

Spam Images of True N-GGer Nubians


YOU WILL NEVER CHANGE THE FACT THAT EGYPT WAS THE RESULT OF AFRICANS...and that African True Nigg-r Blubbery Lipped SSA Neheshy in Ta Seti were a vital part of Ancient Egypt from the 1st Dynasty until their Nappy Head Blubbery Lipped Ancestors wrote the last Mdu-Neter on the Temple Walls in Kemet.

No evidence of a Levantine or Eurasian Hamite will ever come close to that level of influence on Dynastic Egyptian culture.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
here we go again with him exposing his complex : "abid" "true N-GGER" "Blubbery Lipped SSA " "african" ...cringe af tbh

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nassbean:
if upper egyptians are black then half of the world is black ....again these dumb american labels.

Jari I don't see what contradicts what I said : the upper egyptians I posted are not blacks nor do they look like any ssa populations. Moreover the tunisian haratin girl has this phenotype because of her ssa component coming from the trans-saharan slave trade I posted the comparison between me and a tunisian haratin. Thanks.


and Again : there were some nubians in egypt but the egyptians were not black.

Here your true negros :

---

quote:

---

In some way you admit that it's not even about ancestry, you simply want them to be physically similar to your folks

---

quote:

---

and it's through this that you try to claim it as part of your "black" heritage and "black" achievements.

---

quote:

---

You're just projecting your internal battles and further exposing how low your self-esteem is.

Egyptians were similar to modern egyptians and culturally it was a unique culture that shared ties with the middle east and Lower Nubia that's it. It wasn't "black" nor "african" in the sense that your ancestors took part in it. Ancient egyptians looked like modern north africans and middle easterners not blacks like yourself and what's even more ironic is that they were genetically closer to these blond haired blue eyed north europeans than west african like you. They were as "african" as I am.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
When non-Latin Europeans were studying Greece and Rome, they didnt give a Sh#t about DNA, Nor Did Japanese and Koreans.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Ancient Egypt did'nt influence every region of Africa but there were similarites with African cultures across the continent.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: I can look to that for inspiration to understand how an Early African cultural phenomenon was created.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: DNA the one trick used by the one trick Bio-Diversity pony.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Who said anything about Pan-Africanism? Silly little examples and BS strawman. I mean is this seriously your level of intellectual input?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: My "Ideology" is in lock step with accepted Archeological and Historical data.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
They still were physically similar to them in every way meanwhile the contrast between AEs and your people is like day and night.

---

quote:

---

yes "similarities" we know what afrocentrists mean by this with their childish collages I've seen enough of it. Similarities can be found between nilotes and amazonian natives so what ?

---

quote:

---

That kind of bs is this ? Try to understand your early west african cultural phenomenon that would make more sense. The fact that you obsess over egypt is clearly not normal it's more than just curiosity or "inspiration".

---

quote:

---

You fear it huh ? Of course it completely undermines your whole narrative and wishes.

---

quote:

---

hy do you keep yelling "african" every time you answer me then ? "ITS AFRICAN MADE BY AFRICANS OKAY ?!" ...

Pretend you do not claim them yet get triggered everytime someone question their "blackness"...

---

quote:

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emotions, wishes and anachronisms are not what I would call "Archeological and Historical data". I already posted tons of it and you were unable to contradict any of it and I already pointed out in the past your contradictions and lack of knowledge in regards to my people despite the fact you're apparently here since 2007. How come a young man like me who came recently is able to completely destroy your arguments with a few posts ? See ? staying only between afrocentrists isn't productive. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Dude literally spams this kinda shit

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nassbean:
[qb] if upper egyptians are black then half of the world is black ....again these dumb american labels.

Jari I don't see what contradicts what I said : the upper egyptians I posted are not blacks nor do they look like any ssa populations. Moreover the tunisian haratin girl has this phenotype because of her ssa component coming from the trans-saharan slave trade I posted the comparison between me and a tunisian haratin. Thanks.


and Again : there were some nubians in egypt but the egyptians were not black.

Here your true negros :

---

Then has the nerve to claim I have a complex...? For calling your Bullshit racist spams out...

Isn't that what you're implying that SSA are Blubbery Lipped or Nappy Head Niggers with your spams...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: No different than when you spam pictures or Nubian Mummies with Afro hair and try to contrast them with Egyptians After Fucking Beyoku gave your lazy sorry ass a thread with evidence showing other wise..

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: A. Egypt is not a part of my Heritage, nor have I claimed to be an Egyptian. Either post examples to disprove that or STFU with this sloppy ass argument, its getting old and makes you look dumb and desperate.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: More BS, mind nubingly boring ranting from a one trick pony Bio-Diversity scholar.

---

No need to talk here directly the evidence :

Distance to: EGY_Late_Period:JK2134
0.24829438 Norwegian
0.25334914 Swedish
0.68465702 Gambian
0.68624274 Mandenka
0.71294353 Yoruba


Distance to: EGY_Late_Period:JK2911
0.24675281 Norwegian
0.25163005 Swedish
0.68907933 Gambian
0.69039481 Mandenka
0.71691159 Yoruba


Distance to: Egyptian:SFI-44
0.22486361 Norwegian
0.23006335 Swedish
0.67780966 Gambian
0.67929302 Mandenka
0.70555709 Yoruba


Distance to: Egyptian:SFI-44
0.22486361 Norwegian
0.23006335 Swedish
0.67780966 Gambian
0.67929302 Mandenka
0.70555709 Yoruba




They are literally 3x closer to North europeans than west africans... but yes it's me who's spreading bs
 

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Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Yet your dumbass can't disprove them not change the fact that many of these would go on to be incorporated by A. Egypt itself.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: How is calling and reporting the esablished academic fact of African origins of A. Egypt in any way Pan Africanism.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Such a silly little child using sill chest beating Debate Bro arguments as if I care about winning some non existant debate or you "destroyed" anything

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Antalas have you been to Morocco or Algeria?
I assume you have been to or of both. I haven't noticed where you may have mentioned it already

Please post a photo of a woman from one or both of these countries who has her hair in a natural state
and who who think is representative of the majority hair type

and then give a rough guess as to the percentage of people with this type of hair. So it should be somewhere above 50% of the population.
Could be 55% which is around half
or could be predominant, say 70% or more
whatever your rough guess is
this is not a scientific study. I am just wondering what your general impression is of the predominant hair type in the Maghreb or if you think it is more of a roughly even mix of a few hair types

---

I've been to Morocco only but algerians don't look much different from us

average hair type would be something like this :





So straight/wavy hair in average but curly hair isn't uncommon (afro/kinky hair type are extremely rare)
 

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Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
^^^^ great pics, but this is a tricky subject because heat and blow outs can transform the appearance of hair. So you can't tell by unless you KNOW the hair is wet and has been allowed to dry naturally. Also the prevalence of hijabs is another reason you can't tell the prevalence of hair types, and as the above articles I posted men in the MENA tend to keep their hair very close cut.

The subject of this thread is hair...I believe the Fletcher was counting some of this afro hair as Caucasian in her study. Which is questionable at best.


Moroccan girls (Glow Up Ediittion)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHBtgW_y6pE

The video shows a self selected group yes, but beautiful hair with different variable afro textures... which is exactly the kind of hair you see with Admixed African Americans





 

---

Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 
You're american you don't really know much about my people only your cherrypicked videos.

I'm moroccan and live among them so don't pretend you're teaching me something.

Average hair is straight/wavy with a good amount of curly haired but afro/kinky are rare.







Here videos :

https://youtu.be/2_Donn6url8?list=LL&t=151
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-DibXXjW4g&list=LL&index=201&t=363s
https://youtu.be/MqdsZtu2I18?list=LL&t=25
https://youtu.be/XY8igAUMxaM
https://youtu.be/5G0UsPRXpgA?list=LL
https://youtu.be/vrLssiaVGM0?list=LL
https://youtu.be/3YIn3EKMAM0?list=LL&t=232
https://youtu.be/kDFJGD3eAsE?t=257
 

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Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Why are people going round and around with somebody who doesn't know WTF he is talking about?

Light skin and straight hair in modern North Africans is the result of migrations and mixing over the last few thousand years of Eurasian populations. There is no debate about this, except that he tries to argue that North Africans genetically were ALWAYS Eurasians going back 20,000 years. That is false. And every time he says it he should be called out on that BS.

Along with that ancient North Africans 20,000 years ago did not look like modern North Africans. There is no proof of that either at best what he tries to argue is they were "dark" Eurasians. Which again depends on his definition of ancient North Africans being genetically Eurasian even if the fact that the majority of their genes come from Africa is shown to him over and over again. This guy is a clown and people should just keep calling him out on his nonsense. The ancient North Africans with straighter hair 20,000 years were primarily Africans so that shows that indeed Africans can have straighter hair. And this is what this guy is running away from with his "racial" theories.

Then on top of all of that, this guy then tries to argue that the ancient Egyptians were the same as these ancient populations from the Maghreb. No they were not. The Nile Valley was not the Maghreb and the populations of the ancient Nile Valley 20,000 years ago primarily clustered around Upper Egypt and Lower Sudan. Those are not "maghrebis" and if there are any connections between them it is due to the migrations of Africans across the Sahara to the Maghreb. Those are not Eurasians and they were not carrying Eurasian features.

Perfect example of modern Egyptian looking like the ancients:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/Sadat_1.jpg

A child from around Aswan in Upper Egypt
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/99/I%27ll_be_there.jpg/768px-I%27ll_be_there.jpg

Another example:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Playing_with_colors_in_Aswan.jpg/640px-Playing_with_colors_in_Aswan.jpg
These features aren't Eurasian and people from Upper Egypt and Lower Sudan aren't "sub saharan".
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
You're american you don't really know much about my people only your cherrypicked videos.

I'm moroccan and live among them so don't pretend you're teaching me something.

Average hair is straight/wavy with a good amount of curly haired but afro/kinky are rare.







Here videos :

https://youtu.be/2_Donn6url8?list=LL&t=151
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-DibXXjW4g&list=LL&index=201&t=363s
https://youtu.be/MqdsZtu2I18?list=LL&t=25
https://youtu.be/XY8igAUMxaM
https://youtu.be/5G0UsPRXpgA?list=LL
https://youtu.be/vrLssiaVGM0?list=LL
https://youtu.be/3YIn3EKMAM0?list=LL&t=232
https://youtu.be/kDFJGD3eAsE?t=257

---

Come on dude. These pictures show people that would be classified as 'arabs' in dress and features anywhere on the net. Nothing about them distinguishes them as African, yet you claim these are a perfect representation of your ancient North African ancestors. Just stop.

Not to mention you try to compare that to African women who have ALWAYS to this day sported natural African locs and braids which is found all over Africa and in the ancient Nile valley.....


https://www.bridgemanimages.com/en/sandro-vannini/the-mummy-of-queen-nodjmet-from-deir-el-bahri-third-intermediate-period-photo/photograph/asset/660339
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:


Light skin and straight hair in modern North Africans is the result of migrations and mixing over the last few thousand years of Eurasian populations. There is no debate about this....

North Africans being genetically Eurasian even if the fact that the majority of their genes come from Africa is shown to him over and over again...


The ancient North Africans with straighter hair 20,000 years were primarily Africans so that shows that indeed Africans can have straighter hair.

---

El Masetro, do these statements of Doug's from his last post add up?
 

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Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Whew when I tell you a hit dog will holler, and I agree Doug, there is no point arguing with a racist. Especially, if a racist is going to spam pictures of people that maybe of slavic, circassian, turkish, arab backgrounds. Or they maybe of some indigenous ancestry. Again, a beauty contest is self selected and maybe influence by racist European beauty standards. Time stands still for no one, and I love to see Africans of all shades learning to love themselves.

Hair straightening products were most likely promoted by European/American companies.

Egyptian Singer Nesma Mahgoub



with straight hair

quote:

---

Many of the hairdressers at salons are exceptionally chatty. Whenever I visited a new salon I walked in with a heavy heart because I knew what they were going to ask me: Why haven’t you permed your hair? In other words, why have you been putting up with your hair? This was a question I got fed up of hearing over the years.

Once, as a teenager, a hairdresser “over-permed” my hair, and parts of it started to fall off. After this incident, I swore that I would never do that to myself again.

I’ve always loved the diversity of Egyptian genes. Some of us have Turkish, Arab or Ancient Egyptian origins; we come in different skin tones, features, and hair types. Why hasn’t Egyptian society made peace with the fact that not all girls have silky hair? But also, why is silky hair the only hair that should be viewed as feminine or beautiful?

---

WHEN ALL ELSE IS GONE THEM NAPS ARE GOING TO HANG ON
 

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Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

Oum El Ghaït Benessahraoui[1]
(Arabic: born 18 April 1978[2][3] in Casablanca[2]), is a Moroccan singer-songwriter. Considered an ambassador of Moroccan culture,[4] she mixes hassani, jazz, gospel, soul, afrobeat and Sufi music influences in her songs.


[4]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=297klwcKKmI
 

---

Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Come on dude. These pictures show people that would be classified as 'arabs' in dress and features anywhere on the net. Nothing about them distinguishes them as African, yet you claim these are a perfect representation of your ancient North African ancestors. Just stop.

Not to mention you try to compare that to African women who have ALWAYS to this day sported natural African locs and braids which is found all over Africa and in the ancient Nile valley.....

[/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
Whew when I tell you a hit dog will holler, and I agree Doug, there is no point arguing with a racist. Especially, if a racist is going to spam pictures of people that maybe of slavic, circassian, turkish, arab backgrounds. Or they maybe of some indigenous ancestry. Again, a beauty contest is self selected and maybe influence by racist European beauty standards. Time stands still for no one, and I love to see Africans of all shades learning to love themselves.

Hair straightening products were most likely promoted by European/American companies.

Egyptian Singer Nesma Mahgoub



with straight hair

quote:

---

Many of the hairdressers at salons are exceptionally chatty. Whenever I visited a new salon I walked in with a heavy heart because I knew what they were going to ask me: Why haven’t you permed your hair? In other words, why have you been putting up with your hair? This was a question I got fed up of hearing over the years.

Once, as a teenager, a hairdresser “over-permed” my hair, and parts of it started to fall off. After this incident, I swore that I would never do that to myself again.

I’ve always loved the diversity of Egyptian genes. Some of us have Turkish, Arab or Ancient Egyptian origins; we come in different skin tones, features, and hair types. Why hasn’t Egyptian society made peace with the fact that not all girls have silky hair? But also, why is silky hair the only hair that should be viewed as feminine or beautiful?

---

WHEN ALL ELSE IS GONE THEM NAPS ARE GOING TO HANG ON

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Come on dude. These pictures show people that would be classified as 'arabs' in dress and features anywhere on the net. Nothing about them distinguishes them as African, yet you claim these are a perfect representation of your ancient North African ancestors. Just stop.

Not to mention you try to compare that to African women who have ALWAYS to this day sported natural African locs and braids which is found all over Africa and in the ancient Nile valley.....

---

wtf are you talking about ? Not all africans look the same and if we look "arab" to you then our ancestors too. You have never set foot in Africa nor read any books about it yet pretend you know everything about it. African members of this site already pointed out your total ignorance as I did and stop trying to get my attention with your afrocentrist bs thanks.

---

quote:

---

Since the inception of cinema in Europe and the United States, many people assumed that cinema in the Middle East arrived much later than Western Cinema. However, it was found that cinema was brought into most of the Arab countries by the beginning of the 20th century by Pathe Freres or the Lumiere Brothers. Eventually by the 1950s Egyptian cinema was and still is the main dominating Arab and Middle Eastern film industry and this led to many other Middle Eastern countries incorporating Egyptian conventions into their own films.

---

quote:

---

Arabic pop is mainly produced and originated in Cairo, Egypt; with Beirut, Lebanon, as a secondary center. It is an outgrowth of the Arabic film industry (mainly Egyptian movies), also predominantly located in Cairo. Since 2000, various locations in the Gulf countries have been producing Khaleeji pop music.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
Whew when I tell you a hit dog will holler, and I agree Doug, there is no point arguing with a racist. Especially, if a racist is going to spam pictures of people that maybe of slavic, circassian, turkish, arab backgrounds. Or they maybe of some indigenous ancestry. Again, a beauty contest is self selected and maybe influence by racist European beauty standards. Time stands still for no one, and I love to see Africans of all shades learning to love themselves.

Hair straightening products were most likely promoted by European/American companies.

Egyptian Singer Nesma Mahgoub


WHEN ALL ELSE IS GONE THEM NAPS ARE GOING TO HANG ON

---

"slavic,circassian, turkish, arab backgrounds" yes meanwhile i suppose the black slaves couldn't influence the local hair type XD I literally posted berbers from the mountain stop being delusional native north africans don't have afro hair type except the ones with recent black ancestors.

Here statistics about hair type :



you see afro/kinky represent only 0.2% most have straight/wavy and I posted my own picture + my genetic results. Stop talking about my people you clearly know nothing about us.
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
Whew when I tell you a hit dog will holler, and I agree Doug, there is no point arguing with a racist. Especially, if a racist is going to spam pictures of people that maybe of slavic, circassian, turkish, arab backgrounds. Or they maybe of some indigenous ancestry. Again, a beauty contest is self selected and maybe influence by racist European beauty standards. Time stands still for no one, and I love to see Africans of all shades learning to love themselves.

Hair straightening products were most likely promoted by European/American companies.

Egyptian Singer Nesma Mahgoub


WHEN ALL ELSE IS GONE THEM NAPS ARE GOING TO HANG ON

---

"slavic,circassian, turkish, arab backgrounds" yes meanwhile i suppose the black slaves couldn't influence the local hair type XD I literally posted berbers from the mountain stop being delusional native north africans don't have afro hair type except the ones with recent black ancestors.

Here statistics about hair type :



you see afro/kinky represent only 0.2% most have straight/wavy and I posted my own picture + my genetic results. Stop talking about my people you clearly know nothing about us.

---

If you can't prove that this woman was a slave from "sub Saharan" Africa then shut up:


Or this man:

 

---

Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Your opening post is that these kinds of people represent the features of all ancient North Africans and more specifically the people of the ancient Nile valley. No they don't. We have shown you this over and over again. And YES, North Africa including Egypt is considered as part of the Arab world. They speak Arabic and their culture is integrated into Arab culture. Egypt is the center of the Arab entertainment industry. Yet you sit here and argue that this modern Arabized population is the best representation of ancient indigenous North Africans across all of North Africa over 20,000 years. It is not. You are simply spewing nonsense because it is false.

quote:

---

Since the inception of cinema in Europe and the United States, many people assumed that cinema in the Middle East arrived much later than Western Cinema. However, it was found that cinema was brought into most of the Arab countries by the beginning of the 20th century by Pathe Freres or the Lumiere Brothers. Eventually by the 1950s Egyptian cinema was and still is the main dominating Arab and Middle Eastern film industry and this led to many other Middle Eastern countries incorporating Egyptian conventions into their own films.

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinema_of_the_Middle_East

quote:

---

Arabic pop is mainly produced and originated in Cairo, Egypt; with Beirut, Lebanon, as a secondary center. It is an outgrowth of the Arabic film industry (mainly Egyptian movies), also predominantly located in Cairo. Since 2000, various locations in the Gulf countries have been producing Khaleeji pop music.

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_pop_music [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Your opening post is that these kinds of people represent the features of all ancient North Africans and more specifically the people of the ancient Nile valley. No they don't. We have shown you this over and over again. And YES, North Africa including Egypt is considered as part of the Arab world. They speak Arabic and their culture is integrated into Arab culture. Egypt is the center of the Arab entertainment industry. Yet you sit here and argue that this modern Arabized population is the best representation of ancient indigenous North Africans across all of North Africa over 20,000 years. It is not. You are simply spewing nonsense because it is false.

quote:

---

Since the inception of cinema in Europe and the United States, many people assumed that cinema in the Middle East arrived much later than Western Cinema. However, it was found that cinema was brought into most of the Arab countries by the beginning of the 20th century by Pathe Freres or the Lumiere Brothers. Eventually by the 1950s Egyptian cinema was and still is the main dominating Arab and Middle Eastern film industry and this led to many other Middle Eastern countries incorporating Egyptian conventions into their own films.

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinema_of_the_Middle_East

quote:

---

Arabic pop is mainly produced and originated in Cairo, Egypt; with Beirut, Lebanon, as a secondary center. It is an outgrowth of the Arabic film industry (mainly Egyptian movies), also predominantly located in Cairo. Since 2000, various locations in the Gulf countries have been producing Khaleeji pop music.

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_pop_music

---

You're westernized, dress like whites, eat european dishes, speak english, etc you're therefore not similar to ancient or modern west africans. That's your logic XD

You can't even understand what I posted and even black african members on this site have already told you to shut up when it comes to genetics and anthropology you got totally ridiculized and no one takes you seriously. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
If you can't prove that this woman was a slave from "sub Saharan" Africa then shut up:


Or this man:
[/QB]

---

If you can't prove this woman was a foreigner from "Arabia" then Shut up :




and anwar sadat has sudanese ancestry he's not fully egyptian

Native upper egyptians look like this :





so stop posting people with recent sudanese ancestry + I literally posted tons of datas on ancient egyptians which you're unable to contradict.
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
If you can't prove that this woman was a slave from "sub Saharan" Africa then shut up:


Or this man:

---

If you can't prove this woman was a foreigner from "Arabia" then Shut up :




and anwar sadat has sudanese ancestry he's not fully egyptian

Native upper egyptians look like this :





so stop posting people with recent sudanese ancestry + I literally posted tons of datas on ancient egyptians which you're unable to contradict. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Anwar Sadat was born on 25 December 1918 in Mit Abu El Kom, part of Monufia Governorate in what was then the Sultanate of Egypt, to a poor family, one of 13 brothers and sisters.[10] One of his brothers, Atef Sadat, later became a pilot and was killed in action during the October War of 1973.[ His father, Anwar Mohammed El Sadat, was an Upper Egyptian, and his mother, Sit Al-Berain, was Sudanese from her father.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
Focus on the datas I posted I don't waste my time trying to make childish comparisons. The datas show AEs were absolutely not similar to AAs like you nor similar to what you perceive as "black" and stop with your strawman I already wrote multiple times that my people have nothing to do with egyptians ; they are actually closer to middle easterners than us so stfu and stop obsessing over our countries because you wish our ancestors were black like you. They weren't so start reading more about your own ancestral region.

You're lucky this is only internet because be sure IRL you would have never talk to me like this.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
I am talking to you like this right now. What do you have to prove that Sudanese and Upper Egyptians, including people from Aswan are Sub Saharan slaves? What part of Sub Saharan Africa did they come from and when? And how does that relate to Queen Nodjmet who was obviously black African? You keep talking all this big talk then bring it. Where is your proof? You sound like you really don't have anything to support all this rah rah talk but hot air is what I am saying. So if you got it bring it.

Still waiting for all this data you claim to have. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
I am talking to you like this right now. What do you have to prove that Sudanese and Upper Egyptians, including people from Aswan are Sub Saharan slaves? What part of Sub Saharan Africa did they come from and when? And how does that relate to Queen Nodjmet who was obviously black African? You keep talking all this big talk then bring it. Where is your proof? You sound like you really don't have anything to support all this rah rah talk but hot air is what I am saying. So if you got it bring it.

Still waiting for all this data you claim to have.

---

You're off topic and who talked about SSA slaves in Egypt ?? Do you know the ancestry of "queen nodjmet" ? Do you know exactly what she looked like ? Why doesn't she look like other mummies we have ? So stfu and focus on the datas I've posted I don't care about your impressions. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
A very interesting article from the Archéo-Nil journal :

"Origines du peuplement de l’Égypte ancienne : l’apport de l’anthropobiologie" by Alain Froment :

[QUOTE]"[...]"[...] a multivariate craniometric analysis of 384 world populations is presented. It shows that the Egyptian population presented a great variability, and confirms the general opinion on the polymorphism and the geographical gradient concerning the shape of the skull: the populations of Lower Egypt are very close to those of the Maghreb, and those of Upper Egypt resemble those of Nubia, the latter being close, but not identical, to those of Sub-Saharan Africa.

---

quote:

---

The first king of the XVIIIth dynasty, Ahmosis, had married his sister, Ahmes-Nofertari, described as Ethiopian , who was then regent, then goddess; their son Amenophis I conquered Ethiopia. We have the mummy of Nofertari: curly hair, small mouth, thin lips, straight and slightly lowered nose slightly lowered, short without being flat with wide wings, of dimensions 47 x33 mm (CHANTRE 1904, p.71). [...] The queen of the reformer Tiyi, wife of Akhenaten, of Amenophis is of commoner and Nubian origin (see her famous effigy in the Egyptian Museum of Berlin, miscegenation N°211834), which proves that miscegenation was widespread.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Did you not make that post above that blacks in the Nile Valley are the result of sub saharan slave trading? Why are you running? You created the thread and somebody asks you for proof now you are running? What happened. Where's all that data you got?

Is this what you got?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
A very interesting article from the Archéo-Nil journal :

"Origines du peuplement de l’Égypte ancienne : l’apport de l’anthropobiologie" by Alain Froment :

[QUOTE]"[...]"[...] a multivariate craniometric analysis of 384 world populations is presented. It shows that the Egyptian population presented a great variability, and confirms the general opinion on the polymorphism and the geographical gradient concerning the shape of the skull: the populations of Lower Egypt are very close to those of the Maghreb, and those of Upper Egypt resemble those of Nubia, the latter being close, but not identical, to those of Sub-Saharan Africa.

---

Mixed unions in the XVIIIth dynasty (which again confirms what I thought) :

quote:

---

The first king of the XVIIIth dynasty, Ahmosis, had married his sister, Ahmes-Nofertari, described as Ethiopian , who was then regent, then goddess; their son Amenophis I conquered Ethiopia. We have the mummy of Nofertari: curly hair, small mouth, thin lips, straight and slightly lowered nose slightly lowered, short without being flat with wide wings, of dimensions 47 x33 mm (CHANTRE 1904, p.71). [...] The queen of the reformer Tiyi, wife of Akhenaten, of Amenophis is of commoner and Nubian origin (see her famous effigy in the Egyptian Museum of Berlin, miscegenation N°211834), which proves that miscegenation was widespread.

---

Sounds like to me there were always blacks in the Nile Valley in those two quotes. So where is the proof that black skin is foreign to Upper Egypt and the Nile Valley?

Still waiting. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

For Zayed (Unesco 1980 p. 141) there were in the Middle Kingdom villages of Nubian settlers as far as the Fayum. The composition of present-day Egypt has been modulated by a double flow in the opposite direction: the Mediterranean and Arab contribution, difficult to quantify but not necessarily important since the Islamization of Egypt was the fact of the 4000 horsemen led by Amr ibn el as, followed by a slow diffusion, and the negro-African contribution of the slave trade to Muslim countries, which lasted from the Middle Ages to the present; Caillaud counted 40,000 slaves in 1826; around 1870 it was estimated that 20 to 25,000 of them, raided in the Upper Nile and as far as Chad, passed through Egypt each year (Hamon 1893, Revue de l'Orient 2: 228), a good number of them making a home on the spot [. ..]

---

https://www.persee.fr/doc/arnil_1161-0492_1992_num_2_1_1166
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

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Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 
Seems there were some variation of hair types and hair styles in Egypt. Sometimes in pictures it can be hard to know what is natural hair and what is wigs or extensions. But it seems already from the beginning there were different hair types.

It is interesting to read about the excavations at the Predynastic cemetery site HK43. at Hierakonpolis.

quote:

---

The vast majority of hair samples discovered at the site were cynotrichous (Caucasian) in type as opposed to heliotrichous (Negroid), a feature which is standard throughout dynastic times.

---

quote:

---

Although most of the hair found is the natural dark brown color, natural red hair was also discovered in association with male Burial no. 79, his hair originally falling in a wavy style ending in small ringlet-type open-center curls. Together with other burials uncovered this season, this reveals the great attention paid to appearance, the hair obviously of great importance to both men and women alike.

---

The Secrets of the Locks Unraveled!


Some hairstyles from paintings


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Did you not make that post above that blacks in the Nile Valley are the result of sub saharan slave trading? Why are you running? You created the thread and somebody asks you for proof now you are running? What happened. Where's all that data you got?

Is this what you got?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
A very interesting article from the Archéo-Nil journal :

"Origines du peuplement de l’Égypte ancienne : l’apport de l’anthropobiologie" by Alain Froment :

[QUOTE]"[...]"[...] a multivariate craniometric analysis of 384 world populations is presented. It shows that the Egyptian population presented a great variability, and confirms the general opinion on the polymorphism and the geographical gradient concerning the shape of the skull: the populations of Lower Egypt are very close to those of the Maghreb, and those of Upper Egypt resemble those of Nubia, the latter being close, but not identical, to those of Sub-Saharan Africa.

---

Mixed unions in the XVIIIth dynasty (which again confirms what I thought) :

quote:

---

The first king of the XVIIIth dynasty, Ahmosis, had married his sister, Ahmes-Nofertari, described as Ethiopian , who was then regent, then goddess; their son Amenophis I conquered Ethiopia. We have the mummy of Nofertari: curly hair, small mouth, thin lips, straight and slightly lowered nose slightly lowered, short without being flat with wide wings, of dimensions 47 x33 mm (CHANTRE 1904, p.71). [...] The queen of the reformer Tiyi, wife of Akhenaten, of Amenophis is of commoner and Nubian origin (see her famous effigy in the Egyptian Museum of Berlin, miscegenation N°211834), which proves that miscegenation was widespread.

---

Sounds like to me there were always blacks in the Nile Valley in those two quotes. So where is the proof that black skin is foreign to Upper Egypt and the Nile Valley?

Still waiting.

---

No the topic wasn't about slavery in Egypt and running from what ? Lmao the quotes you post highlight that they were similar to modern egyptians which you describe as "arab" what's even more funny is that the ancient samples we have are genetically close to arabs than any other population XD the second quote show that nubians could reach high position in egypt's society so posting "queen nodjmet" as a proof of black egyptian is misleading since she could have had nubian ancestry.

As for slavery since you ask for it :

quote:

---

For Zayed (Unesco 1980 p. 141) there were in the Middle Kingdom villages of Nubian settlers as far as the Fayum. The composition of present-day Egypt has been modulated by a double flow in the opposite direction: the Mediterranean and Arab contribution, difficult to quantify but not necessarily important since the Islamization of Egypt was the fact of the 4000 horsemen led by Amr ibn el as, followed by a slow diffusion, and the negro-African contribution of the slave trade to Muslim countries, which lasted from the Middle Ages to the present; Caillaud counted 40,000 slaves in 1826; around 1870 it was estimated that 20 to 25,000 of them, raided in the Upper Nile and as far as Chad, passed through Egypt each year (Hamon 1893, Revue de l'Orient 2: 228), a good number of them making a home on the spot [. ..]

---

https://www.persee.fr/doc/arnil_1161-0492_1992_num_2_1_1166

---

Yeah like I thought, you talk a good game but when it comes down to it you are spewing hot air.

Hair texture among black Africans in the Nile Valley:


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Beja_Child_with_sheep.jpg

You made this thread to suggest that "Afrocentrics" were making up facts about the ancient nile valley using "hair" as proof. Prof of what? That black Africans cant have straight hair? Based on what?

Sudanese with straight hair:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/With_camels.jpg/673px-With_camels.jpg

So called "Nubians" from Aswan with straight hair

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Egypt,_Assuan.jpg

So seriously what is your point? You certainly cannot argue that blacks in Sudan and Upper Egypt are slaves as they have been there since the beginning.

But beyond that this is the kind of hair worn in the ancient Nile Valley:

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/551111

https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/Y_EA2560

https://intarch.ac.uk/journal/issue42/6/3.cfm

Which is nothing more than the common hairstyle of braids seen all over 'black' Africa.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:People_of_Aswan#/media/File:Egypt,_Bisharin_Man,_Assuan.jpg
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


https://www.klatmagazine.com/photography/kahn-prokudin-gorskii-miethe-the-world-c-1914-pics-053/14497


Originally posted by Doug M:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:People_of_Aswan#/media/File:Egypt,_Bisharin_Man,_Assuan.jpg
.


.


Bisharin man, Bayuda desert, North East Sudan


who knows what the complete ancestry is of each of these people
 

---

Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
I am talking to you like this right now. What do you have to prove that Sudanese and Upper Egyptians, including people from Aswan are Sub Saharan slaves? What part of Sub Saharan Africa did they come from and when? And how does that relate to Queen Nodjmet who was obviously black African? You keep talking all this big talk then bring it. Where is your proof? You sound like you really don't have anything to support all this rah rah talk but hot air is what I am saying. So if you got it bring it.

Still waiting for all this data you claim to have.

---

You're off topic and who talked about SSA slaves in Egypt ?? Do you know the ancestry of "queen nodjmet" ? Do you know exactly what she looked like ? Why doesn't she look like other mummies we have ? So stfu and focus on the datas I've posted I don't care about your impressions. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
[QB]

You made this thread to suggest that "Afrocentrics" were making up facts about the ancient nile valley using "hair" as proof. Prof of what? That black Africans cant have straight hair? Based on what?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:
[QB] ??? How does that show I have a complex ? And how is that "racist" ?

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quote:

---

I showed you this so that you realize how different egyptians were to these nubians who look similar to your folks.

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quote:

---

Now you're basically calling AEs racist and into stereotypes because they used to depict blacks as your "true negro" ...XD

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quote:

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??? as far as I know the nubians from his thread had straight/wavy hair too and nubians were multi-ethnic like today confirming how different these people were from you and further confirming the eurasian ancestry of AEs and lower nubians.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
I am talking to you like this right now. What do you have to prove that Sudanese and Upper Egyptians, including people from Aswan are Sub Saharan slaves? What part of Sub Saharan Africa did they come from and when? And how does that relate to Queen Nodjmet who was obviously black African? You keep talking all this big talk then bring it. Where is your proof? You sound like you really don't have anything to support all this rah rah talk but hot air is what I am saying. So if you got it bring it.

Still waiting for all this data you claim to have.

---

You're off topic and who talked about SSA slaves in Egypt ?? Do you know the ancestry of "queen nodjmet" ? Do you know exactly what she looked like ? Why doesn't she look like other mummies we have ? So stfu and focus on the datas I've posted I don't care about your impressions.

---

The ultimate question to ask is this: You are North African. Do you believe your AFRICAN Ancestors, including your North African ancestors.....not the Eurasian ancestors in the multiple lines of ancestry in the North but *specifically the AFRICAN Ancestors aboriginal to the Equatorial and Northern parts of the region* - Do you believe they had Dark skin and kinky hair? [/QB]

---

 

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Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
I am talking to you like this right now. What do you have to prove that Sudanese and Upper Egyptians, including people from Aswan are Sub Saharan slaves? What part of Sub Saharan Africa did they come from and when? And how does that relate to Queen Nodjmet who was obviously black African? You keep talking all this big talk then bring it. Where is your proof? You sound like you really don't have anything to support all this rah rah talk but hot air is what I am saying. So if you got it bring it.

Still waiting for all this data you claim to have.

---

You're off topic and who talked about SSA slaves in Egypt ?? Do you know the ancestry of "queen nodjmet" ? Do you know exactly what she looked like ? Why doesn't she look like other mummies we have ? So stfu and focus on the datas I've posted I don't care about your impressions.

---

The ultimate question to ask is this: You are North African. Do you believe your AFRICAN Ancestors, including your North African ancestors.....not the Eurasian ancestors in the multiple lines of ancestry in the North but *specifically the AFRICAN Ancestors aboriginal to the Equatorial and Northern parts of the region* - Do you believe they had Dark skin and kinky hair? [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antalas:

Yes between afrocentrists now you'll face the facts.

---

quote:

---

There has never been an all "black" egypt or one race of Egyptians. It showed variation like today.

---

quote:

---

Therefore why do you consider some of their traits as local or Egyptian? Why spamming pictures of people with foreign ancestry ?

---

quote:

---

The bust might be misleading yes but how does that contradict a possible Nubian origin for Tiye? Lower Nubians actually were more Eurasian shifted before being gradually altered by geneflow from further south with a massive change during the Meroitic period:

---

quote:

---

"After a long period of depopulation which affected it during a millennium, Lower Nubia is occupied at the beginning of our era by populations of a very different physiognomy from those of the pharaonic group, with negroid characters already affirmed as we have underlined. There is no doubt that the introduction of the black element in Lower Nubia comes especially from this period and is amplified in the passage from the Meroitic culture to that of group X. We can follow its progression by the increasing differences in CH2 and by the increase in variability that mainly affects the "negroid characters" (Billy, 1975). Finally, it should be noted that the upward current of black infiltration does not reach Upper Egypt, since the samples from this same period at Denderah (D', D") or Manfalut (MA) do not show any differences with respect to the Egyptian-Nubian population background established since the beginning of the dynastic era. "

---

https://www.persee.fr/doc/bmsap_0037-8984_1981_num_8_3_3828?q=n%C3%A9groide

Oh, of course! How predictable. LOL The Mesolithic Nubians were more "negroid" in morphology in contrast to the Neolithic Nubians who were more "caucasoid", but since when does "caucasoid" morphology mean Eurasian?? Again this shows your stubborn ignorance if not stupidity when it comes morphological typology. Are you aware that Mesolithic remains in Kenya also exhibit "caucasoid" morphology, does that mean they are "Eurasian" too?!

Also if Nubia had massive Sub-Saharan influence during the Meroitic Period then how come the odontic features don't show it?



It seems both the Meroitic and X-Group peoples are classified squarely as North African and not even intermediate to Sub-Saharans.

quote:

---

More new is the fact, already suspected in Soleb by G. Billy and M.C.Chamla (1981), that in Nubia, the nasal index, identical to the European values at the origin, increases considerably then to join the figures observed in central Africa; at the same time, the dental anthropologists (Greene 1972, 1981; Carlson and Van Gerven 1979; Small 1981; Calcagno 1986) observe a morphological reduction of the dentition. This phenomenon of nasal enlargement could not, in Nubia, be linked to the humidification of the climate since it was, on the contrary, aridified, and thus comes from genetic exchanges, in the sense of a greater contribution from Black Africa; it is up to archaeology to link this evolution with cultural mutations.

---

quote:

---

Who told you this wasn't done for Ramses II?

---

quote:

---

There has been no skin color allele testing for any egyptian mummy and I'm not expecting your regular tanned fellah to have lower level of melanin as many SSA groups. And "dark mediterranean" here does not refer to your pseudo-scientific taxonomic labels from the 1940s lol

---

Of course, because if there was a skin allele test on Egyptian mummies I would have heard about it very likely in this forum. However a melanin dosage test was performed on Middle Kingdom mummies by a German team in 2005:

Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues

2005, Vol. 80, No. 1 , Pages 7-13 (doi:10.1080/10520290500051146)

A-M Mekota1 and M Vermehren2

1Department of Biology I, Biodiversity Research/Anthropology, Ludwig-Maximilians University, Munich, Germany

Skin sections showed particularly good tissue preservation, although cellular outlines were never distinct. Although much of the epidermis had already separated from the dermis, the remaining epidermis often was preserved well (Fig. 1). The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin. In the dermis, the hair follicles, hair, and sebaceous and sweat glands were readily apparent (Fig. 2). Blood vessels, but no red blood cells, and small peripheral nerves were identified unambiguously (Fig. 3). The subcutaneous layer showed loose connective tissue fibers attached to the dermis, and fat cell remnants were observed.

LMAO at you bringing up "pseudo-scientific taxonomic labels from the 1940s" even though you cling to racial terms from 18th century like "Caucasoid" and "Negroid" as if they are scientific valid!

quote:

---

Haha see you're forced to recognize that they didn't share much similarities with most sub-saharan africans. Their type of hair is prevalent among eurasians not sub-saharans. Also most "north sudanese, ethiopians and somalis" do not have loose wavy hair but kinky/frizzy.

---

quote:

---

And yes straight/wavy hair appeared first among eurasians not sub-saharans:

quote:

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Interestingly, different genes have been associated with straight hair in Europeans and East Asians, suggesting that this trait evolved independently at least twice. The most robust associations for straight hair have implicated Trichohyalin (TCHH, a structural hair protein) in Europeans14,15, and EDAR (a cell signalling receptor) in East Asians16, illustrating the range of cellular mechanisms that can impact on hair shape.

---

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10815

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quote:

---

quote:

---

Recent studies have identified Asian-specific alleles of the EDAR and FGFR2 genes that are associated with thick, straight hair, suggesting that these variants arose after the divergence of Asians and Europeans .3, [...] The T allele at rs11803731 is the derived state and shows a striking geographic specificity to Europe and western-central Asia, reaching its highest frequency in Northern Europeans (Figure 1E), suggesting that the variant arose somewhere in this broad region.

---

Common Variants in the Trichohyalin Gene Are Associated with Straight Hair in Europeans, 2009

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quote:

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Your point? The Samples from upper and lower egypt are all closer to "bedouins" than to any sub-saharan population LOL and you used to called modern Egyptians "arabs" hahahahah and they are also closer to the maghreb than to SSA XD

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quote:

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They actually cluster closer to the European one than the Sub-Saharan one which includes ethnicities from West, central, south and east Africa and as you can see only the most Eurasian shifted Nubians plot close to the ancient Egyptian samples and the centroids of both lower and upper Egyptians are closer to Europe than the Nubian one.

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quote:

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A fucking european has literally more rights to claim egyptians than afro-americans XD

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ROTFLMAO


Keep telling yourself that if it maintains your delusion.

I guess I don't have to bring up the fact that Europeans have black African admixture which is why autosomally they are closer to West Africans than the latter is to South Africans.

quote:

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It seems like you don't pay attention: The E serie from the 26th dynasty is actually separated in the picture from an older E series (4th-6th dynasties). Also can you explain to us what such kind of skulls are doing next to the pyramids?

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No, I tend to not pay much attention to the postings of a deluded raving nutcase such as yourself. Okay if you are referring to the older E series they seem to represent an outlying type of the Egyptian series in one direction.



The Badarians form another in the other direction. That's just part of the diversity in the region. Your point?

quote:

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The paper highlight continuity with all modern egyptians not only with your cherrypicked "baladi" who are not black btw.

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quote:

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Modern egyptians are the closest thing to ancient egyptians:
[same picture spam sh*t]

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quote:

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and certainly not these clowns XDDDD :
[strawman sh*t spam]

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Nobody said black Americans were Egyptians loon, however they sure are closer to it than white muktabas like yourself and your Euro cohorts! LOL
 

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Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
 
With regards to the hair texture discussion, I am still inclined to think that fluffy "Afro" hair, while probably not ancestral for hominins, may be ancestral for Homo sapiens at latest and that straighter hair in certain modern human populations represents a series of reversions. Consider that a lot of the African populations with fluffy hair are otherwise very distinct genetically from one another, often more than some of them are distinct from non-Africans.

If kinky hair was something that developed in sub-Saharan Africa after OOA, you'd think there would be far more genetic uniformity among extant Africans than we observe due to them all descending from the same selective sweep. Instead, we have a bunch of genetically disparate African populations, and even some non-Africans, sharing the trait of fluffy hair. If we apply phylogenetic bracketing here, fluffy hair seems more likely to be ancestral for AMH.

That doesn't necessarily mean the looser or wavier textures you see in some ancient Egyptian and Sudanese mummies is entirely due to admixture with West Eurasian back-migrants. I suspect what happened in North Africa could be analogous to what apparently happened within Australasian populations. Papuans, Melanesians, and the extinct indigenous Tasmanians all have or had fluffy hair, yet indigenous populations on the Australian mainland have predominantly loosely curled, wavy, or even straight hair. Maybe prehistoric North Africans underwent selection for less fluffy hair as a result of living in a desert climate analogous to that of the Australian interior? I wouldn't even rule out the possibility that this development even contributed to the predominant hair texture in western Eurasia today if we consider Basal Eurasian admixture in current West Eurasians.
 

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Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by BrandonP:
With regards to the hair texture discussion, I am still inclined to think that fluffy "Afro" hair, while probably not ancestral for hominins, may be ancestral for Homo sapiens at latest and that straighter hair in certain modern human populations represents a series of reversions. Consider that a lot of the African populations with fluffy hair are otherwise very distinct genetically from one another, often more than some of them are distinct from non-Africans.

If kinky hair was something that developed in sub-Saharan Africa after OOA, you'd think there would be far more genetic uniformity among extant Africans than we observe due to them all descending from the same selective sweep. Instead, we have a bunch of genetically disparate African populations, and even some non-Africans, sharing the trait of fluffy hair. If we apply phylogenetic bracketing here, fluffy hair seems more likely to be ancestral for AMH.

That doesn't necessarily mean the looser or wavier textures you see in some ancient Egyptian and Sudanese mummies is entirely due to admixture with West Eurasian back-migrants. I suspect what happened in North Africa could be analogous to what apparently happened within Australasian populations. Papuans, Melanesians, and the extinct indigenous Tasmanians all have or had fluffy hair, yet indigenous populations on the Australian mainland have predominantly loosely curled, wavy, or even straight hair. Maybe prehistoric North Africans underwent selection for less fluffy hair as a result of living in a desert climate analogous to that of the Australian interior? I wouldn't even rule out the possibility that this development even contributed to the predominant hair texture in western Eurasia today if we consider Basal Eurasian admixture in current West Eurasians.

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quote:

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Originally posted by BrandonP:
With regards to the hair texture discussion, I am still inclined to think that fluffy "Afro" hair, while probably not ancestral for hominins, may be ancestral for Homo sapiens at latest and that straighter hair in certain modern human populations represents a series of reversions. Consider that a lot of the African populations with fluffy hair are otherwise very distinct genetically from one another, often more than some of them are distinct from non-Africans.

If kinky hair was something that developed in sub-Saharan Africa after OOA, you'd think there would be far more genetic uniformity among extant Africans than we observe due to them all descending from the same selective sweep. Instead, we have a bunch of genetically disparate African populations, and even some non-Africans, sharing the trait of fluffy hair. If we apply phylogenetic bracketing here, fluffy hair seems more likely to be ancestral for AMH.

That doesn't necessarily mean the looser or wavier textures you see in some ancient Egyptian and Sudanese mummies is entirely due to admixture with West Eurasian back-migrants. I suspect what happened in North Africa could be analogous to what apparently happened within Australasian populations. Papuans, Melanesians, and the extinct indigenous Tasmanians all have or had fluffy hair, yet indigenous populations on the Australian mainland have predominantly loosely curled, wavy, or even straight hair. Maybe prehistoric North Africans underwent selection for less fluffy hair as a result of living in a desert climate analogous to that of the Australian interior? I wouldn't even rule out the possibility that this development even contributed to the predominant hair texture in western Eurasia today if we consider Basal Eurasian admixture in current West Eurasians.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Thereal:
The only thing that seems reasonable to me is the population fluctuating. It would be weird ancient humanity was colorists or featurist back then to select a specific phenotyple.

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The frequency of hyper curly and kinky hair is an attribute of Natural Selection. Only the Khoisan are known to sexually select for their hair type. It's not about featurist or colorists... It's simply whether or not you will survive long enough to reproduce.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ I'm personally inclined to Rasol and Swenet's theory that ancestral AM Humans in Africa probably already had the same type of diversity for hair form that modern Africans have today. We know modern Africans possess only a fraction of the genetic diversity their prehistoric ancestors possessed and as further circumstantial evidence we see the Sahulese people (Australasians of Papua New Guinea, Australia, and Tasmania--originally all one continent of Sahul) who also possess diverse hair types with Papuans having kinky hair, Aussies having wavy to straight hair, and Tasmanians having frizzy hair. Yet the Sahulese represent the earliest branch of OOA.

The idiot Antalas cites this paper on the mutation types for straight hair with TCHH in Europeans and EDAR in East Asians yet nowhere does that study mention the straight hair among South Asians or Australian Aborigines! This could only mean that straight hair the latter populations has nothing to do with the mutations discussed in the paper.



Even in the above map, the areas with TCHH derived alleles outside of Europe are those areas with historical European genetic influence including the coastal areas of North Africa. Just eyeballing that map, only northern Egypt has it, yet we know loose hair texture is common among the darker (blacker) populations of southern Egypt and Northern Sudan not to mention all throughout the Saharan region as well as areas of the Horn. Yet all those areas are devoid of the blue coloring.

Getting back to my point, look at the trichometric index chart cited by the West African Magazine:

San, Southern African 55.O0
Zulu, Southern African 55.O0
Sub-Saharan Africa 60.O0
Tasmanian (Black) 64.70
Australian (Black) 68.00
Western European 71.20
Asian Indian 73.00
Navajo American 77.00
Chinese 82.60

^ Note the San and Zulu of Southern Africa are separated from the rest of "Sub-Saharan" Africa and the San having the tightest coiled or spiral tuft hair has the lowest average index of 55 which is shared by the Zulu (who have significant San ancestry). I take it the 'Sub-Saharans' have the stereotypical 'kinky' hair type have the average index of 60 which is higher. Note also the difference between the Sahulese peoples with Tasmanians at 64.7 and Australians at 68.
 

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Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ I'm personally inclined to Rasol and Swenet's theory that ancestral AM Humans in Africa probably already had the same type of diversity for hair form that modern Africans have today. We know modern Africans possess only a fraction of the genetic diversity their prehistoric ancestors possessed and as further circumstantial evidence we see the Sahulese people (Australasians of Papua New Guinea, Australia, and Tasmania--originally all one continent of Sahul) who also possess diverse hair types with Papuans having kinky hair, Aussies having wavy to straight hair, and Tasmanians having frizzy hair. Yet the Sahulese represent the earliest branch of OOA.

The idiot Antalas cites this paper on the mutation types for straight hair with TCHH in Europeans and EDAR in East Asians yet nowhere does that study mention the straight hair among South Asians or Australian Aborigines! This could only mean that straight hair the latter populations has nothing to do with the mutations discussed in the paper.



Even in the above map, the areas with TCHH derived alleles outside of Europe are those areas with historical European genetic influence including the coastal areas of North Africa. Just eyeballing that map, only northern Egypt has it, yet we know loose hair texture is common among the darker (blacker) populations of southern Egypt and Northern Sudan not to mention all throughout the Saharan region as well as areas of the Horn. Yet all those areas are devoid of the blue coloring.

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Antalas doesn't truly seek to understand what he posts or read. But just as you explained yes there was likely a variety in hair types in the early AMH days. I mentioned before in a thread that might have been deleted that a N.African origin of a mutation in the TCHH gene could be a reality. and that the derived variant is found though almost exclusively heterozygous in modern SSA populations. Initially his arguing point was that Taforalt who were fixed for the derived allele were straight haired to look more like Europeans.

The gene comes up again though a different mutation that most likely has a European origin and lower frequencies globally. This is what happens when folks poorly understand what they read, or repost. You can see how confusion can occur once we're not honest or poorly understand the information which we post. Not only is the mutation responsible for only ~6% variance, but most people carry the ancestral genotype among tested populations who have predominantly wavy or straight hair.

The way that study could be relevant is if the claim was that A.Egyptians or whoever carried the derived allele. And to my knowledge rs11803731 isn't even captured in ancient individuals, possibly due to how irrelevant it is.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ LOL No surprise there! I've long noticed how Antalas in desperation would cite studies that actually contradict or conflict with what he claims. It's quite comical actually which again is why I don't take him seriously and merely use him as an example to those lurkers visiting the forum.
 

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Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Elmaestro:
Antalas doesn't truly seek to understand what he posts or read. But just as you explained yes there was likely a variety in hair types in the early AMH days. I mentioned before in a thread that might have been deleted that a N.African origin of a mutation in the TCHH gene could be a reality. and that the derived variant is found though almost exclusively heterozygous in modern SSA populations. Initially his arguing point was that Taforalt who were fixed for the derived allele were straight haired to look more like Europeans.

The gene comes up again though a different mutation that most likely has a European origin and lower frequencies globally. This is what happens when folks poorly understand what they read, or repost. You can see how confusion can occur once we're not honest or poorly understand the information which we post. Not only is the mutation responsible for only ~6% variance, but most people carry the ancestral genotype among tested populations who have predominantly wavy or straight hair.

The way that study could be relevant is if the claim was that A.Egyptians or whoever carried the derived allele. And to my knowledge rs11803731 isn't even captured in ancient individuals, possibly due to how irrelevant it is. [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

quote:

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Originally posted by Elmaestro:
Antalas doesn't truly seek to understand what he posts or read. But just as you explained yes there was likely a variety in hair types in the early AMH days. I mentioned before in a thread that might have been deleted that a N.African origin of a mutation in the TCHH gene could be a reality. and that the derived variant is found though almost exclusively heterozygous in modern SSA populations. Initially his arguing point was that Taforalt who were fixed for the derived allele were straight haired to look more like Europeans.

The gene comes up again though a different mutation that most likely has a European origin and lower frequencies globally. This is what happens when folks poorly understand what they read, or repost. You can see how confusion can occur once we're not honest or poorly understand the information which we post. Not only is the mutation responsible for only ~6% variance, but most people carry the ancestral genotype among tested populations who have predominantly wavy or straight hair.

The way that study could be relevant is if the claim was that A.Egyptians or whoever carried the derived allele. And to my knowledge rs11803731 isn't even captured in ancient individuals, possibly due to how irrelevant it is.

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What does 6% of variance means here ? An impact of only 6% on the hair type ? If it was that insignificant why they took the time to report it ? [/QB]

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It's a correlational find. What you get from 'Composite of Multiple Signals.' You take a region that shows Amplification or Enrichment when compared to a investigated phenotype. They found the signal so they reported it and three other snps responsible for less hair curvature.


https://i.postimg.cc/DnVfVDvC/image1975.png <------ Click here for a larger image

If you look at the Manhattan plot above you can estimate that there are a few other SNPs nearby (TCHH) that show a correlation with hair curvature, but due to the population aggregate the signals probably associated exclusively with West Eurasians had been dampened. (See EDAR region)
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
As usual Antalas provides good data but is totally erroneous with his interpretations. Again the charts he presents are based on craniometric traits which are not good indicators of genetic relations the way non-metric traits are. That said, metric traits are useful in establishing what the general look or appearance of a populations is and what other populations resembled them in terms of features.



As I've pointed out before about the above chart, the population groupings are obviously arbitrary since there is a Sub-Saharan African grouping with Khoisan who are also Sub-Saharan forming their own grouping. Nilotes who are also Sub-Saharans form their own group and their position is intermediate between Sub-Saharans and Europeans, with the latter and Nilotes close to the x-axis. Nilotes are also intermediate to Nubians who are right beside Indians. The Upper Egyptian and Lower Egyptians cluster together but strangely the 'Bedouins' group falls within the same cluster and is closer to Upper Egyptians than the Lower Egyptians. I wonder where the Bedouins sample comes from and I wonder if it is the same Bedouins sample from Morocco that Irish used. The Maghreb sample falls on the y-axis like the Lower Egyptians and is closest to the Egyptian cluster among North Africans.

Here is another version of the above chart with other world populations included.



Note the Egyptian samples are compacted into one Ancient Egyptian grouping and there is a 'Saharan' grouping that is intermediate between Khoisans and Nubians. The Indian grouping is intermediate between Nilotes and Maghreb as well as Nilotes and Ancient Egyptians, and the Sub-Saharan Africans are relatively closest to Australians (Aborigines).

Here is the other expanded and more detailed craniometric chart of North African samples.



Note it is more explicit that North Africans are intermediate between Sub-Saharan grouping and European grouping, and again South Indian samples like Tamil and Veddoid are included in the North African grouping clustered with early Nubians and predynastic Egyptians. Antalas loves to stress that the Late Giza sample and E-Series cluster with Greeks but omits the fact that these were Neolithic Greeks who were noted to have more "negroid" affinities per Brace 2004.

The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants, although the prehistoric/modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa.

And from F. X. Ricaut, M. Waelkens. (2008). 'Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements' Human Biology - Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564:

A late Pleistocene-early Holocene northward migration (from Africa to the Levant and to Anatolia) of these populations has been hypothesized from skeletal data (Angel 1972, 1973; Brace 2005) and from archaeological data, as indicated by the probable Nile Valley origin of the "Mesolithic" (epi-Paleolithic) Mushabi culture found in the Levant (Bar Yosef 1987). This migration finds some support in the presence in Mediterranean populations (Sicily, Greece, southern Turkey, etc.; Patrinos et al.; Schiliro et al. 1990) of the Benin sickle cell haplotype. This haplotype originated in West Africa and is probably associated with the spread of malaria to southern Europe through an eastern Mediterranean route (Salares et al. 2004) following the expansion of both human and mosquito populations brought about by the advent of the Neolithic transition (Hume et al 2003; Joy et al. 2003; Rich et al 1998). This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005). In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al 2005), in concordance with a process of demic diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994).

So let's compare the above MMD charts to some dendograms.

Brace 1993


An expanded more detailed version of the above


Brace 2004


An expanded more detailed version of the above

 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Kemp


An expanded more detailed version of the above

https://historum.com/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi1067.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu431%2FArchHades%2FPhysical%2520anthropology%2520charts%2FKemp%25202005%2520Dendrogram%2520colore d.jpg&hash=0e03fddb91b4e280932ef23de949bf3e
 

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Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
 
Hey DJ, were you going to say more after posting those dendrograms?
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ I was just going to say people tend to misuse metric affinities as proof of genetic affinities when we can clearly see that depending on the data collected, Sub-Saharans usually group with Australian Aborigines and Nubians with South Indians while Egyptians are intermediate with Nubians and Europeans but in the case of the latter particularly Neolithic Europeans who had North African admixture. So if we are just comparing populations by craniofacial metrics you get various trends or groupings. What's interesting is that not only do Sub-Saharans group with Aboriginal Australians but together they group closer to East Asians first before North Africans and Europeans! In fact this is something that both Eurocentrics and Afrocentrics tend to forget or ignore.

East Asian affinities aside, Eurocentrics love to stress the distance of modal Sub-Saharans to that of modal North Africans which is something some Afrocentrics who deny African phenotypic diversity tend to ignore. By the way, the modal or statistically based archetype is different from racial stereotype. For example North African crania may be "negroid" in appearance due to certain features but when their metric traits are all added up they are still very different from 'typical' Sub-Saharan types like West and Central Africans. Swenet has tried to explain this many times like with the quotes below:

The indications of exclusion, however, are much easier to interpret. For example, the likelihood that either the Giza or Naqada configuration could occur in West Africa, the Congo, or points south is vanishingly small-0.000 and 0.001.
--Brace 1993

We collected measurements for a single specimen from what was called the Nubian X Group in Reisner’s terminology (Reisner, 1909). This was a population that immediately preceded the early Christian Nubians of AD 550 (Carlson and Van Gerven, 19791, and, in the subjective treatment of a generation gone by, had been regarded as evidence for a “Negroid incursion" (Batrawi, 1935; Smith, 1909; Seligman, 1915). As our figures show, the probability of finding our representative specimen in a Sub-Saharan population is 0.009, which is highly unlikely. Its column loadings are generally similar to the loadings in the column for the Predynastic Naqada sample, and, except for the fact that it is only marginally unlikely that it can be excluded from the Giza sample, it cannot be denied membership in the Naqada, European, or South Asian samples.
--Brace 1993

So "Negroid" or as Keita calls it "southern" is not synonymous with the modal or stereotypical Sub-Saharan type. But the same can also be said about "Mongoloid" with Mongolians and other North Asians being metrically distinct from other East Asians.

Ironically Mongols are the least typical examples of East Asians. 'Mongoloid' then is not a good way to characterize the cluster of East Asian peoples.--Brace 1993



A Euclidean Distance dendrogram or cluster diagram demonstrating the atypical status of Mongols when compared with representative samples of the other inhabitants of East Asia. The values for the measurements were converted into C scores and compared by Unweighted Matched Pair Group Analysis (IJMPGA). The procedure was pioneered by Howells (1986) and is described in greater detail in Brace and Hunt (1990).



^ Interestingly Mongols and other North Asians are as divergent from other East Asians as Wadi Halfans are to other Sub-Saharans.

Clines & Clusters vs. "Race"
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
The converse is also true-- with many metric studies showing Egyptians to have close affinities to West Asian groups like Jericho and Lachish. I recall Swenet citing a graph showing early dynastic Abydos and Thebes to cluster close to a West Asian group (Lachish?). However, when nonmetric data is assessed it shows that the Egyptian crania are actually statistically distant from the West Asian samples which metrically resemble.

Ullinger & Sheridan et al. (2005) Paper on Dental Nonmetrics of the Southern Levant:

The proposal that Lachish was comprised of Egyptian immigrants (Risdon, 1939) was not supported. Rather, the current findings support the theory that the people of Lachish were indigenous to the southern Levant (Keith, 1940; Arensburg, 1973; Arensburg etal., 1980; Smith, 1995), as Dothan and Lachish were both significantly different from Lisht.

This is later verified by genetics, so while metric data is useful in assessing the general morphometric trend of populations they can't be taken for granted as proof of genetic affinities.
 

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