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Author Topic: Cheikh Anta Diop: Ancient Egypt as Africa's Paradigm
lamin
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Cheikh Anta Diop once wrote that Ancient Egypt should serve as the same kind of patrimonial model for Africa as Ancient Greek serves for Europe. The question is how viable is such a model for the African world(Diop was Pan-Africanist in this regard)? And if it is viable why hasn't it not yet been developed.

In the case of Ancient Greece one notes the great impact and influence that Greek philosophy--British philosopher A.N. Whitehead once argued that the history of Western philosophy is not much more than footnotes to Plato and Aristotle, Greek literature, Greek historiography, Greek art and Greek theoretical work in science and mathematics(note the reliance on the Greek alphabet in higher mathematics) has had on Europe. And it was Greek philosophy that upgraded Christian thought from dogma to discursive analysis(theology); and Greek philosophy again that served as the template for the European Renaissance.

Can similar parallels be found with Ancient Egypt and the rest of Africa? I think that this is a complex question because only Plotinus and dynamic holism and the Egyptian approach to engineering, architecture and the Armana model in art would seem to be useful as a model for the contemporary African world.

I say this with the full recognition that neither modern Iraq nor modern Iran seem to be much influenced by the respective paradigms of Mesopotamia and Persia--their whole classical cultures being overlaid by the dictates of Islam. Would it be different for Ancient Egypt as model for contemporary Africa?

There was a time when colonial ideology once taught Africans erroneously that their ancestors were Gauls("nos ancestres les Gaulois") or that the British monarch was the African monarch( on Empire Day many Africans thought nothing wrong about singing "God Save the King/Queen" and "Rule Britannia--Britannia Rules the Waves--Britons never never will be Slaves...").

That kind of thing has been rejected on account of the shaping nature of hard experience but there is some question as to what has replaced it. Hence Diop's thesis about Ancient Egypt.


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Horemheb
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lamin, The question would become is Africa as unified from a philosophical standpoint the way Europe was as a result of Greece.
If you can find that unity then the project you mentioned would be doable. You might e-mail some African historians at major universities and see what they tell you.

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rasol
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Wally wrote and excellent analysis of this question awhile back.

He pointed out the tactical role the notion of Ancient Greece plays in terms of the conceptualisation of 'western civilisation', which is why some westerners fight so hard to maintain this concept as a dominent discourse in history.

It's an interesting question you raise with many facets.


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windstorm2005
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quote:
The question is how viable is such a model for the African world(Diop was Pan-Africanist in this regard)? And if it is viable why hasn't it not yet been developed.

Not sure about the viability of such a model, but the value is pretty clear.

I say Ancient Egypt's a good model because it's high profile, plus in AE philosophy, there are concepts that are of value to modern africans.

Show the kiddies the beautiful images the kemetans left us, then teach them concepts of maat, and renewal, and the value of being a "scribe", etc. Show them to egyptian love poetry, how a guy embraced his woman as a "sister", etc. Show them african rulers like menkaura, worshipped after his death for 2,000 years...There are values in there that could be good for african communities.

---

The fact that kemet was a nation at the gateway of africa, with influence beyond africa, yet still an african nation with african kings, is also exemplary. Kemet was not just an african civilization, but a regional economic center, foretelling the great economic centers of today...

---

I have a feeling that AE's power as an aesthetic and philosophical "beacon" is one of the reasons that aryanists and eurocentrics are rabid about discouraging interest in AE among africans, and distancing AE from africa. Of course, they'd rather see africans in ignorance and isofret.

---

Kemet's rise and fall itself also tells an important tale for modern africans -- including the modern history of eurocentrics distancing Kemet from africa, based on some notion that africans don't create advanced civilizations. Showing how desperate they are to maintain that notion, in spite of obvious evidence to the contrary, offers important info about "the game" today...

---

The whole package is important and valuable for modern african people. If the legacy of kemet served such a purpose, the great kings would be proud, I think.

Thank you, and save a safe drive home.


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Horemheb
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When Wally talks about Greece he doesn't know his A$$ from a hole in his head.
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kenndo
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quote:
Originally posted by lamin:
Cheikh Anta Diop once wrote that Ancient Egypt should serve as the same kind of patrimonial model for Africa as Ancient Greek serves for Europe. The question is how viable is such a model for the African world(Diop was Pan-Africanist in this regard)? And if it is viable why hasn't it not yet been developed.

In the case of Ancient Greece one notes the great impact and influence that Greek philosophy--British philosopher A.N. Whitehead once argued that the history of Western philosophy is not much more than footnotes to Plato and Aristotle, Greek literature, Greek historiography, Greek art and Greek theoretical work in science and mathematics(note the reliance on the Greek alphabet in higher mathematics) has had on Europe. And it was Greek philosophy that upgraded Christian thought from dogma to discursive analysis(theology); and Greek philosophy again that served as the template for the European Renaissance.

Can similar parallels be found with Ancient Egypt and the rest of Africa? I think that this is a complex question because only Plotinus and dynamic holism and the Egyptian approach to engineering, architecture and the Armana model in art would seem to be useful as a model for the contemporary African world.

I say this with the full recognition that neither modern Iraq nor modern Iran seem to be much influenced by the respective paradigms of Mesopotamia and Persia--their whole classical cultures being overlaid by the dictates of Islam. Would it be different for Ancient Egypt as model for contemporary Africa?

There was a time when colonial ideology once taught Africans erroneously that their ancestors were Gauls("nos ancestres les Gaulois") or that the British monarch was the African monarch( on Empire Day many Africans thought nothing wrong about singing "God Save the King/Queen" and "Rule Britannia--Britannia Rules the Waves--Britons never never will be Slaves...").

That kind of thing has been rejected on account of the shaping nature of hard experience but there is some question as to what has replaced it. Hence Diop's thesis about Ancient Egypt.


I would say both egypt and nubia because both made great progress over the years,but i tend to lean more closer to nubia because it last so long,AND MORE INNOVATIVE.
It had greater resistance and they were more open to new ideas from within and out and all of it remain nubian and they made greater progess AND WERE MORE CREATIVE from within in the long run.

[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 19 May 2005).]


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Horemheb
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What about some of the other African kingdoms like the Kingdom of Ghana or Mali
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lamin
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Thabo Mbeki introduced the idea of an "African Renaisance" a few years ago, did he have Diop's model in mind?
Or did he have something else in mind?

Some sceptics have dismissed Mbeki's idea of "Renaissance" with the claim that there was no "naissance"(birth) in Africa so how can there be a "rebirth".


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Wally
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quote:
Originally posted by lamin:
Thabo Mbeki introduced the idea of an "African Renaisance" a few years ago, did he have Diop's model in mind?
Or did he have something else in mind?

Some sceptics have dismissed Mbeki's idea of "Renaissance" with the claim that there was no "naissance"(birth) in Africa so how can there be a "rebirth".


-- This is an organized State speaking here, so
a) The African Renaissance isn't an "idea" but an actual program that's already underway, and
b) it doesn't seek the approval of its detractors

---
The following are excerpts from speeches given by South African President Thabo Mbeki, on Ancient African civilization and the new African Renaissance:

Address to the Hellenic Foundation for European and Foreign Policy (ELIAMEP), King George Hotel, Athens, 24 February 2005.

quote:

It is a privilege and honour to visit this beautiful country and have an opportunity to address such an important gathering of the Hellenic Foundation for European and Foreign Policy. I am indeed very happy because I see this as part of the important engagement that must define the relationship between this cradle of western civilization and the people of Africa.

This is the relationship that historians and scholars would say is the continuation of a close and intimate relationship that the ancient Greece and the ancient Egypt in particular shared for hundreds of years; a relationship which is noted in the writings of such great philosophers as Plato and Aristotle who made inferences to the great temples of learning in places such as the Thebes and Memphis in ancient Egypt.

History correctly credits and documents the enormous influence of Greek political development on Europe, wherefrom it spread widely and rapidly to many parts of the world, including Africa.
Many Africans are proud that the ideas of Greek democracy arising from the concept of the City-state, the Council of the Wise, the establishment of the Senate and other participatory processes found easy resonance with African traditional mechanisms for consultation and decision-making. Perhaps this is expected since the civilisation of the ancient Egypt had a profound impact on the subsequent Greece civilisation.


...and to the Conference of the Association of African Universities, Cape Town, 22 February 2005

quote:

Chairperson:
I am happy that this conference will focus on the valuable insights that can be and will be gained from a serious examination of non-Western educational traditions, such as those prevalent in Africa and the African Diaspora. We know very well the long and rich history of higher education on this continent from the time of the flowering of Nubian civilisation, to the great temples of knowledge in ancient Egypt, to the era of the great centres of learning in Timbuktu in the middle of the second millennium A.D.

Those who understood the role of a university in the greater human setting, correctly referred to the scholars of Timbuktu as ambassadors of peace. As we know, Timbuktu was not only a great intellectual centre of the West African civilizations of Ghana, Mali and Songhai. It was also one of the most splendid scientific centres and contributors to the period described as the European Medieval and Renaissance eras. Its incomplete collection of books and manuscripts leaves us in no doubt as to the magnificence of its intellectual contribution.

Indeed, because of the importance of the manuscripts at Timbuktu, the governments of Mali and South Africa have established a project of restoring and preserving these priceless documents, so that as we look at the challenges facing our continent, we will be able to draw from this invaluable fountain of knowledge.


[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 19 May 2005).]


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Wally
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...Diop's influence in this process should be apparent. He's probably somewhere, smiling to himself...
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relaxx
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quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
When Wally talks about Greece he doesn't know his A$$ from a hole in his head.

Please be more polite, we are not in Texas. Some people are not familare with your vocabular. It's an international forum.
Relaxx.


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windstorm2005
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quote:
What about some of the other African kingdoms like the Kingdom of Ghana or Mali

AE is one of the oldest (if not the oldest) civilizations on earth. It was also one of the longest-lasting, plus it left more literature and art. The fact that AE at times exerted influence on other civilizations is also important.

In short, it's high-profile. Other african civilizations shouldn't be discounted, but with kemet, there's more to appeal to people's imaginations.


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kenndo
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quote:
What about some of the other African kingdoms like the Kingdom of Ghana or Mali

AE is one of the oldest (if not the oldest) civilizations on earth. It was also one of the longest-lasting, plus it left more literature and art. The fact that AE at times exerted influence on other civilizations is also important.

In short, it's high-profile. Other african civilizations shouldn't be discounted, but with kemet, there's more to appeal to people's imaginations.

i disagree with some points here and that last point.

egyptian civilization-3500 b.c.? to late ancient times.

nubia,the oldest and longer lasting and still here from-8000 b.c. to the present.


let's not forget that research in nubia is still going on and many things have not been found yet and new things are bieng found every day.
sooner or later more nubian artifacts-art and other things will be found and surpass what is found in egypt,and alot has been lost but things are being found.if you talk about ancient nubia less is known than ancient egypt for now but that will soon change as the years go by,but if you talk about later nubia than scholars know more about it than ancient egypt because thier written works could be read fully than meriotic and nubian culture and civilization is still here.modern nubians are not just sitting around and not doing anything,they are still in the game.

so if you add overall nubian civilization and culture,pass and present than scholars have more detail info.

please look at other past topics.

[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 20 May 2005).]


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kenndo
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. . . October 1995
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RENOWN
UNEARTHED FROM RUINS

By John Woodford

"Africa has no history." Hegel’s disdainful remark has come down to us from the 18th century, echoed not only by contemporary scholars but even, according to The Haldeman Diaries, by a US president. Africa has long lain under the charge that no noteworthy ancient civilizations arose among the myriad Black societies that lived below its Mediterranean regions. The Kelsey Museum of Archaeology’s current three-month exhibition, "Ancient Nubia: Egypt’s Rival in Africa," will go far toward correcting that misimpression.

The exhibition, which opened Sept. 29 and runs through Dec. 15, contains more than 230 objects that span the millennia from 3500 BC to 100 AD from a Black African civilization that arose immediately south of Egypt more than 5,000 years ago. The curator of the exhibition is David O’Connor, who headed the Egyptian section of the University of Pennsylvania’s Museum of Archaeology and is now at the Institute of Fine Arts at New York University.

Nubia’s northern region began at the site of the present-day Aswan Dam, and curled 868 miles down the Nile Valley. By 1700 BC, Nubians lived in sizable cities for those times, forming a class society comprising workers, farmers, priests, soldiers, bureaucrats and an aristocracy, and developing technological and cultural skills on a level with the other advanced civilizations of their day.

Nubia was known as the Kingdom of Kush in the Bible, and the Greek historian Herodotus wrote that Nubia was renowned for its fair rulers and "pious and just" citizens. Nubia traded, conducted diplomacy and occasionally battled with Egyptians, Romans, Judeans and Assyrians. Nubia was colonized by Egypt from around 1500 to 1000 BC, but in 750 BC, the era of the Greek poet Homer, the Nubian King Piye turned the tables, conquering a weakened and disunited Egypt and becoming the first of several Nubian pharaohs who ruled a unified Egyptian and Nubian state for the next century.

Nubians produced and traded gold, ivory, incense, ebony, animal skins, grains, cattle, cotton and smelted iron. They controlled trade between Mediterranean lands and the African societies to the south and were middle men in the slave trade. Nubia, itself, however, O’Connor says, seems never to have served as any more significant source of slaves to Egypt than did nearby Semitic and West Asian lands.

Nubia’s fortunes rose and fell over the millennia, as all civilizations have done. Its last high point in ancient times was the state of Meroe (MAYR-o-way), a great cultural center whose scribes developed an alphabet around 180 BC to better express the Nubian language, which until then had been written with Egyptian hieroglyphs. The Meroitic alphabet is still largely undeciphered, and until linguists crack its code, the sizable number of remaining written records are inaccessible. O’Connor says once the linguistic puzzle has been solved, we’ll know more about the last days of ancient Nubia, which faded around 400 AD. In 500, Nubians turned from their own Egyptian-influenced religion to Christianity, and the region converted heavily to Islam a thousand years later.

Scholars began excavating northern Nubia (which in confusing scholarly parlance is called Lower Nubia because it lies on lower lands along the north-flowing Nile) in the first decade of this century. Yet this exhibition—which began in Philadelphia and visited Newark, Rochester and the Smithsonian Institution in Washington DC before coming to the Kelsey, and is bound next for Baltimore and Minneapolis—is the first major public presentation of Nubian history, culture and artifacts.

Why did Nubian history lie in general obscurity despite the consistent interest in it shown by generations of African American scholars? Ethnocentric bias played a big role in the underappreciation of Nubia, O’Connor says. In his catalog for the exhibit, he notes that many Western scholars have conveyed the idea that Nubia was either backward in comparison with Egypt and other societies of the time, or that Nubians borrowed all of their advanced technologies and ideologies from Egyptians. He cites as an example of "scholarly biases" the practice of translating the Egyptian words heka and wer as "ruler" or "king" when they are applied to heads of Near Eastern kingdoms or states, "but as ‘chief’ for the Nubian [leaders], although nothing in the text warrants the differentiation."

Peter Lacovera, an Egyptologist at Boston’s Museum of Fine Arts, told the Washington Post, "What we realize now is that the Nubians weren’t copying the Egyptians; they were innovators in their own right. In fact, they were often more innovative than the Egyptians in their use of different materials and in their artistic styles. Nubian ceramics were well beyond Egypt in technology and decoration." Nubians also built more pyramids than the Egyptians, although the Nubian version is smaller and has a flat rather than pointed top.
U-M Assoc. Prof. Thelma K. Thomas, an art historian and the Kelsey Museum’s associate curator, points out that George Reisner, who pioneered in Nubian archaeology with his excavations in the early 1900s of a 5,000-year-old Nubian royal cemetery, seems to have been unsettled by his discovery.
Reisner argued that the pottery he had unearthed represented a culture that must have been essentially Egyptian—that is, non-Black, according to the widespread view of that time of a hierarchy of races. He theorized that this original culture soon declined as a result of the "increasing change in the racial character of the people. The negroid element became dominant."

Reisner had to twist his argument through "a good deal of mental gymnastics," Thomas continues, when he attempted to account for facets of Nubian culture that were distinct from Egypt’s. She cites the following passage from his report:

"Thus a race was revealed which had only a political and geographical connection with Egypt. It was racially and culturally descended from the people living in the same place in the Old Kingdom. The Nubian race was negroid, but not negro; it was perhaps a mixture of the proto-Egyptian and a negro or negroid race, possibly related to the Libyan race. It lay outside the cultural influence of Egypt and, seeming to lack power or opportunity of self-culture, developed through several phases of the same quasi-Neolithic state in which we first find it."

Thomas, who is "fascinated by such historiography and by the still-growing accumulation of various versions of ancient Nubian history," says that today statements like Reisner "ought to leap out from the page as offensive as well as misguided." Versions of Nubia’s past are concocted not only by those who would belittle Nubia but also by those who seek to glorify it as a Golden Age state that gave birth to Egyptian civilization. Some members of the African American community seize upon utopian depictions of ancient African societies as a corrective, however exaggerated or even erroneous, to the belittling versions of African cultures that arose as ideological justifications of the slave trade.

Thomas offers as an example of Afrocentric "popular re-imaginings" a comic book about an ancient Nubian super-hero, Heru, Son of Ausar, whose creator Roger Barnes includes a bibliography of African and African American historical interpretations of Nubia.

All over the globe versions of ancient history remain hotly contested by those who excuse or vindicate present policies on the basis of rights they claim through their interpretation of the past. American scholars have reported that some of their Egyptian colleagues think it is ludicrous to devote attention to ancient Nubia, which they have been taught to view as merely a poor country cousin of pharaonic Egypt.

It’s more surprising to hear that the Sudanese establishment, too, shows minimal interest in ancient Nubia. Sudanese archaeologists say that some leaders of the current Islamic state see little value in valorizing the achievements of "pagan" originators of their culture.

Nonetheless, Thomas emphasizes, African archaeologists and historians, including Egyptians and Sudanese, are now playing major roles in reconstructing and reinterpreting Nubian and other early African civilizations that now present the largest remaining uncharted territory for researchers into ancient life.

Attention Expanding
The Kelsey Museum is seizing upon this awakening interest by using the Nubian exhibition "to expand our own attention to Africa beyond Egypt and Tunis, two areas that are well represented in our collections and related research," says Becky Loomis, Kelsey’s education and development officer, who has arranged numerous events to acquaint U-M students, regional school systems and the local community with the exhibition. Meanwhile, Kelsey Assistant Curator Janet Richards is investigating additions of Nubian materials for Kelsey’s permanent exhibit.

Professor O’Connor will give a public lecture on the exhibition Tuesday, Nov. 14 at 7 p.m., Auditorium C, Angell Hall. For other information, call (313) 747-0441.

Initial funding for "Ancient Nubia: Egypt’s Rival in Africa" came from the Pew Charitable Trusts and the National Endowment for the Humanities. Financial support was also provided by the University’s International Institute and the Office of the Vice President for Research. All images used in this article are from the exhibition catalog by David O'Connor and may not be reproduced without permission of the University Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology at the University of Pennsylvania.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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YuhiVII
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quote:
Originally posted by kenndo:
egyptian civilization-3500 b.c.? to late ancient times.

nubia,the oldest and longer lasting and still here from-8000 b.c. to the present.


let's not forget that research in nubia is still going on and many things have not been found yet and new things are bieng found every day.
sooner or later more nubian artifacts-art and other things will be found and surpass what is found in egypt,and alot has been lost but things are being found.if you talk about ancient nubia less is known than ancient egypt for now but that will soon change as the years go by,but if you talk about later nubia than scholars know more about it than ancient egypt because thier written works could be read fully than meriotic and nubian culture and civilization is still here.modern nubians are not just sitting around and not doing anything,they are still in the game.

so if you add overall nubian civilization and culture,pass and present than scholars have more detail info.

please look at other past topics.

[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 19 May 2005).]


Kenndo, you seem to know quite a bit about this place.The region you speak of has many names depending on who was writing a narrative on it:

from the Hebrews - Kush
from the Greeks - Aethiopia
from the Romans - Nubia
from the Arabs - Sudan

The question is what did the native people of that land call it?


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kenndo
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this is for the newcomers here,i get tired of repeating past issues that is known already here so here is a post from the past,i have comments below or corrections,but overall it is one of the best i could find on the internet from the mainstream african scholars,both black and white.

INTERNET PUPPET THEATERwww.internetpuppets.org
GLOBAL STUDIES
ANCIENT NUBIA THE KINGDOM OF KUSH PROLOGUE
This was a time of two superpowers competing for dominance. Nubia and Egypt shared a common culture and border. The Kingdoms engaged in trade and constant warfare on the Sudan-Egyptian disputed border. Ancient Nubia was a commercial center for Central and Southern Africa. The name Nubia is derived from the Egyptian word "nub", meaning gold. Nubia was a golden city trading in gold, ebony, ivory, exotic feathers, copper, precious metals and slaves. The ancient civilization of Nubia has long been forgotten by Europeans and Africans.

This is the story of an empire which, at the height of its power, encompassed both Egypt and the Sudan. Nubia's territory extended 1,200 miles, from the Mediterranean to Khartoum. This was a time when African (Black) Pharaohs ruled Egypt, when African workers built pyramids in the Sudan, when African priests worshipped in Thebes and African princes' dominated the world scene. This is the story of a peoples who withstood the power of Ancient Greece and preserved their freedom by fighting a legion of Rome to a stalemate. This was a civilization which shared military and political power with women. To a modern European, the world would seem as if it was turned upside down.
THE NILE
MAP OF AFRICAANCIENT NUBIA <afrmapnubia.jpg>The Nile was the center of ancient life. Its shores provided the fertile soil necessary for agriculture. The Nile flows from the south to the north. The Egyptians named the southern half of Egypt: Upper Egypt and the northern half: Lower Egypt. The flow of the Nile lead the Nubians to divide their country into a southern zone named Upper Nubia and a northern zone named Lower Nubia. Ancient Nubia occupied a land mass which the modern world calls Sudan. There are six cataracts (waterfalls) in the Egyptian - Sudan territory. The area between the First Cataract (near the present Aswan Dam) and the Second Cataract was in constant dispute. The area between the Third and Fourth Cataracts was the center of Nubian culture. The Sixth Cataract is north of present day Khartoum.
TIME CHART
The histories of Egypt and Nubia are so intertwined that an Egyptian time chart will clarify the development of Nubia.
EGYPTIAN TIME CHARTOLD KINGDOM Upper and Lower Egypt are united. Pharaohs are absolute rulers. The pyramids are built.3000 -2250 B.CMonarchy weakened and feudal princes' wage internal wars.2250 -2000 B.CMIDDLE KINGDOM The leadership of Thebes unifies Egypt Tombs and Temples are built.2000 -1780 B.CA northeastern peoples, the Hyskos invade Egypt.1780 -1660 B.CNEW KINGDOM Thebes and Memphis are centers of power. Imperial age of conquest from Syria to the Sudan. Ramses I, II and III were warrior Pharaohs. Kerma, the capital of Nubia destroyed.1550 -1100 B.CEgypt falls into chaos. Nubian dynasty appears devoted to the Egyptian Gods. Pharaohs are absolute rulers Nubians conquer Egypt. Assyrians destroy Thebes 663 B.C.800 -656 B.CNubia - The Kingdom of Kush
The first Egyptian reference to Nubia appears in 1971 B.C. - 1928 B.C.. The early Egyptians referred to this area as the Kingdom of Kush. It was not until the crusaders of the Middle Ages that the word Nubia was used. Today, we call Nubia the Sudan. The capital of Nubia was Kerma, then Napata and finally Meroe. These cities were commercial centers connecting Southern and Northern African commerce. Kerma hosted massive brick buildings which were devoted to commerce and the arts.
note-meroe was not the last capital of ancient nubia since new nubian kingdoms were form in 350 a.d.,but it was the finally capital of kush
and the new later nubian kingdoms had new great capitals.
KERMA - THE FIRST CAPITAL OF NUBIACIRCULAR IMPERIAL PALACE <afrrdpalace.jpg>THE SKYSCRAPER CIVIC CENTER <afrcenter.jpg>The Egyptians contested Nubia for control of Lower Nubia (Northern) and plotted to control Upper Nubia. The government of Nubia had supported the Hyskos in the Hyskos invasion of Egypt. The era of the New Kingdom had ushered in a time of Egyptian conquest and revenge. The Egyptian rulers sent an army into Nubia (1580 B.C), destroying the capital of the Kush Kingdom. The Egyptians founded a new capital at Napata (near the Fourth Cataract) and built a temple to their God - Amon. The Kingdom of Kush became an Egyptian colony. In the years that followed, Egypt fell into chaos. History has no record of the events of the next four hundred years. In the eighth century B.C., a Nubian dynasty dedicated to conquest raised an army and attacked Egypt. In 712 B.C., an African dynasty ruled both Egypt and Nubia. The Nubian Pharaohs followed Egyptian traditionalism and restored the rites and traditions of the old religion.
CAPITAL CITIES OF NUBIA KERMAThe oldest city in Africa, founded 5000 B.C. First capital of Nubia. The city covered 62 acres and housed a temple, palace, commercial center and over 200 homes. Sacked by the Egyptians. NAPATAThe second capital of Nubia. A sacred center devoted to the Egyptian Gods. The temple founded at Jebal Barkal, a sacred mountain, became the source of Nubian claims to the Egyptian throne. The Kings of Nubia invaded Egypt and established the 25th dynasty. They were the masters of the world. The Nubian Empire encompassed Syria in the north to Nubia in the south. The Nubian Kings supported the state of Israel in its struggle against the Assyrians. Captured by an Egyptian and Greek assault in 591 B.C.MEROEThe third capital of Nubia. Assyrian invaders had toppled the last of the Nubian Pharaohs. The Nubian dynasty would continue for another one thousand years. The Nubian culture at Meroe combined Egyptian and Southern African traditions. The Nubian written language (believed non-existent by Europeans) has never been translated. Sacked by the axumites. THE RISE OF THE KUSHITE EMPIRE
NUBIAN ARTELEPHANT STATUE <afrelephant.jpg>The destruction of the Nubian capital Kerma lead to the establishment of Napata as the center of Nubian life. The Egyptian Pharaoh Ramses II built a temple of Amon at the base of the mountain Jebel Barkal, which was located in Napata. Egyptian priests came to worship at this site and the area became the second most important site in Egyptian religious worship (after Karnak). The mountaintop formation of Jebel Barkal contains an outcropping resembling the head of a cobra. The cobra was the symbol of Egyptian royalty. The Nubian rulers of Kush believed this was a sign from the God Amon of their right to the Egyptian throne. In 760 B.C., the Nubian King Kashta seized control of Lower (northern) Nubia from the Egyptians. He united Lower and Upper Nubia, conquered Upper (southern Egypt) and called himself Son of Ra of Upper and Lower Egypt. Kashta founded the Nubian Pharaohs of the 25th dynasty. In 730 B.C., Piye conquered Lower Egypt (northern Egypt). The Kush Empire extended 1,200 miles from the Mediterranean to Khartoum and beyond. Piye's sister became the high priestess in the Temple of Amon at Karnak. Piye was the first to build pyramids in Kush. Piye crowned himself Pharaoh and waged war against Libya.

In 716 B.C., Shabako (Piye's uncle) succeeded Piye. Shabako moved his capital to the city of Memphis. He loved to build pyramids and as a result, Nubia had more pyramids than Egypt. Shabako believed he was the restorer of the Egyptian traditions and the ancient glories.

In 690 B.C., Shabitko, the son of Piye, ascended to the throne. Shabitko sent arms to Judah (the state of Israel) in defiance of an Assyrian military threat. In 674 B.C., the Assyrian's invaded Egypt. The Nubian's were pushed back into Nubia proper. King Tanutamani was the last Nubian King to attempt to re-take Egypt. By 656 B.C., Nubian dominance of Egypt was at an end. The Nubian Empire had lasted less than a century. In 593 B.C., the names of the Nubian Pharaohs were erased from Egyptian monuments. In 591 B.C., Napata (the Nubian capital) was sacked. Meroe became the third Nubian capital.
The Nubian Kings would forever believe themselves the rightful rulers of Egypt. They would forever be addressed as rulers of Upper and Lower Egypt. The culture of Egypt had indelible been imprinted on Nubian culture.
MEROE
MEROEAFRICAN TEMPLE <afrtemple.jpg>AFRICAN TOMB <afrtomb.jpg>Meroe was the third capital of Nubia. It is situated between the Fifth and Sixth Cataracts. The Nubian culture, a mix of Egyptian, Greco-Roman and Southern Africa influences, would last for a thousand years. The Nubian Egyptian religion now included Black Gods. Alexander the Great invaded Egypt and established the Ptolemies Pharaohs. The Meroitic (Nubian) and Ptolemies (Greek-Egyptians) co-existed and thrived. In 30 B.C., Octavius Caesar defeated Cleopatra's army. Egypt became a Roman colony. The Roman's sent a legion, under the command of General Petronius (24 B.C. - 21 B.C.), to subdue Nubia and seize control of the gold trade. The Nubian army, led by Queen Amanirenas, smashed the Roman forces at Aswan, Philae, and Elephantine. The African army had stood against the most powerful state in the ancient world - Imperial Rome. This was Africa's finest hour. The Roman military had been stalemated and Nubia was divided into Lower Nubia (Roman) and Upper Nubia (Meroitic).

Meroitic history is filled with powerful Queen mothers. Women ruled with the same authority as men. The Meroitic alphabet has never been deciphered due to the lack of a translation key or Rosetta stone. The Nubians so disliked their Roman neighbors that a bust of Caesar Augustus was buried beneath a doorway to a temple. In this way, all who entered would step on his head. By A.D. 300-350, Meroe was abandoned due to environmental pollution. Meroe suffered the fate of an over industrialized nation. The smelting industry had poisoned the soil. Trees had been cut down and the resulting erosion had washed away the topsoil. The land was unable to grow the crops necessary to feed the population. A new kingdom of Axium became Africa's commercial center. In A.D. 350, the Christian King Ezana of Axium had defeated Meroitic forces.

Archeological findings have shown that the founding of Kerma dates back to 5,000 B.C.. The Nubian Empire pre-dates Egyptian civilization and its lifespan outlasted Egypt, Greece and Rome combined. The African army had defeated both Egyptian, Greek and Roman enemies. At the height of its power, Nubia was the center of the ancient world. The Kingdom of Kush, with its alphabet, commerce and architectural triumphs was the equal of its ancient world counterparts. In the modern world, the memory of this once great empire would fade into history.
my comments now-
As you know,meroe was not the last great capitial of nubia,but in this website they were talking about ancient nubia and not later nubia,and even in very late ancient times new capitials became great,and when rome was first defeated it was by queen's son a king and they both ruled together,and he attack roman egypt first.by the way the nubian faith always included black gods,the website above really is saying that the egyptian gods worship by nubians became
nubianized,and worship along with nubian gods and goddess,many egyptian gods came from
nubia anyway.

THE arabs never really conqured all of nubia,it was only the upper and northern part,and the christian nubian kingdom of alwa in southern nubia was conqured by the funj with arab help.the funj were a group of black africans from sennar a region that became a part of nubia earlier,and it a part of nubia,the blue nile area up to sennar a great city.THE FUNJ were a confederation of southern nubians and other africans, and they reconqured the rest of nubia from the arabs.later more clear new nubian kingdoms were form until the british conquest of the sudan,but some nubians remain free and the british never could conqure them.nubian civilization still goes on up until today.

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Canadian archaeologists in Sudan, using magnetometers, have found a 2,000-year--old palace in the heart of the ancient black civilization.

NATIONAL POST

April 22, 2002

Margaret Munro

If his partner had not fallen into an ancient tomb and broken both legs, Professor Krzysztof Grzymski would have discovered the ancient Nubian royal palace even sooner.

Still, Grzymski, a professor at the University of Toronto and a curator at the Royal Ontario Museum, is a happy archaeologist these days. He and his colleague, who is walking again, have found what they believe are the remains of a palace and a colonnade built more than 2,000 years ago by the greatest black civilization ever.

"It's quite remarkable, we can see them clearly beneath the sand," says Grzymski.

The discovery is in the ancient, and for the most part buried, city of Meroë, which was the royal capital of ancient Nubia. It is located about 200 kilometres northeast of present day Khartoum.

Meroë, considered one of the largest and most important archaeological sites in Africa, was at the heart of a powerful black civilization that flourished along the upper Nile River from about 750 BC to 350 AD.

Grzymski and his colleagues plan to start excavating the palace and colonnade next winter. But for now Grzymski is content to pour over the grainy images generated by a device that allowed the archaeolgists to "see" the ruins buried beneath the sand without digging them out.

Explorers -- and tomb robbers -- have long been aware of Meroë and its riches. But archaeologists were so pre-occupied with Egypt's pyramids and kingdoms to the north -- and deterred by the political conflict in Sudan -- they largely ignored the ancient Nubian culture. Many assumed it was merely an offshoot of a more advanced Egyptian culture.

"Here you've got this wonderful civilization that was literate, which extended over 1,000 miles, maybe more, up the Nile, and which built pyramids and palaces and temples and at the same time was a major centre of iron production, and yet it is generally unknown to scholars and the general public," says Grzymski.

He has been intrigued with the ruins since the 1970s, when he studied under Professor Peter Shinnie at the University of Calgary. Shinnie worked for years with Sudanese scholars on the ancient iron smelters

of Meroë.

Grzymski helped keep the Canadian-Sudanese collaboration alive through his ROM work. And in 1999, he and archaeologists at the University of Khartoum were given a licence by Sudan's antiquities officials to explore the 50-hectare site of Meroë. About 10 hectares of the ancient city had been excavated in the early 1900s by British archaeologists. But most remains entombed under sand and shrubs.

The archaeologists had a hunch about where the best ruins lay. But they wanted to be sure.

"You can spend weeks and weeks digging nothing," he says.

To find the most promising areas, Grzymski recruited Tomasz Herbich, a Polish archaeologist and geophysicist who specializes in using magnetometers to find buried ruins. Magnetometers are sophisticated versions of the hand-held devices people use to find coins on beaches and parks. They can differentiate between the magnetic properties of materials -- such as sand, pottery, bricks -- and feed the readings into a computer. The readings then generate maps. Just before the archaeologists were to start scanning the Meroë site in the 2000-2001 season, Herbich, who works on ruins throughout northern Africa, fell into an abandoned ancient tomb in Egypt, breaking both his legs and injuring his spine.

"It was a terrible accident," says Grzymski. And it set the Meroë scan back by one year.

In February, Hebrich and his magnetometer went to the Sudan site. Within days, Herbich homed in on the palace and colonnade.

The palace, about 400 square metres in area, is about a half a metre beneath the surface of the sand. "There are traces of staircases, so it suggests there must have been upper floors," Grzymski says. The street in front of the building also came into view.

To their surprise, they found what appears to be a colonnade near one of the gates to the ancient city.

"We were absolutely delighted," says Grzymski. "It's really fascinating when you can see the urban design without excavating."

In October, Grzymski will return to Meroë to start digging with his Sudanese partners.

It remains to be seen what treasure lies beneath the sand, but the materials uncovered in the region over the years have made it clear the Nubian civilization was a powerful, inventive society.

The most incredible find was made almost 200 years ago in a pyramid near Meroë. An Italian physician and tomb robber known as Ferlini accompanied an Ottoman invasion of Sudan in 1821 and discovered exquisite gold amulets, signet rings and necklaces by blasting open the pyramid of Queen Amanishakheto, one of Nubia's most powerful rulers.

Ferlini tried to sell the treasure when he returned to Europe. But collectors would not believe such treasure could come from black Africa. They thought he was trying to pass off fakes, says Grzymski. "They were jewels of great quality and beauty and often influenced by Greek art, which was really a surprise," he says. "People didn't expect deep in the heart of Africa depictions resembling those of Egyptian or classical Greek art."

The ancient Nubians exchanged plenty of ideas and goods with cultures around them. Nubian pyramids, monuments and jewels were clearly influenced by Egyptian, Mediterranean and Arabian cultures.

"They worshiped many of the same gods as the Egyptians and the royalty was buried in pyramids," says Grzymski.

Some of their pottery and burial talismans predate similar discoveries in Egypt, indicating Nubia may have influenced the Egyptians rather than the other way around.

At the height of their culture, Nubian kings are said to have ruled Egypt from 750 to 650 BC. They were driven south by the Syrians, says Grzymski.

Ancient trash heaps have revealed many details of daily life for the Nubians. Olive pits suggest the Nubians either imported olives from the Mediterranean or grew them on the banks of the Nile. And the animal bones they left behind reveal much about the climate and environment they lived in. Along with sheep and goats, the Nubians consumed gazelle, antelope, warthogs and other wild animals now seldom seen in Sudan. The bones, and ancient water reservoirs, suggest rainfall patterns have changed in the past 2000 years, shifting 300 to 400 kilometres to the south. "There has been quite a change in environment," says Grzymski.

But it is the Nubians' written language that he finds most intriguing. Borrowing 24 signs from Egyptian hieroglyphics and using them as an alphabet, they developed their own writing system, Grzymski says.

"It's the second-oldest writing system in Africa, but it has still not been deciphered."

So far, 1,500 inscriptions written in the ancient Nubian language have been found, but no one knows what they mean. Grzymski and his colleagues are sure to find more as they continue excavating.

While finding more palaces would make Grzymiski happy, what he would most like to find is some manner of bilingual inscription to enable scholars to unlock the messages left by the Nubian people. He says the archaeologists need something like a Rosetta Stone, the famed slab of black basalt inscribed in Greek text and Egyptian hieroglyphs that enabled scholars in the early 1800s to decipher the Egyptian writings.
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Nubia (Kingdom of Cush)

People of northern Sudan and southern Egypt. With a history and traditions which can be traced to the dawn of civilisation the Nubians settled along the banks of the Nile from Aswan in the south of Egypt to the 6th cataract just south of Khartoum (capital of Sudan). Along this great river they developed one of the oldest and greatest civilisations in Africa. Until they lost their last kingdom (Christian Nubia) only 5 centuries back the Nubians remained as the main rivals to the other great African civilisation of Egypt. A great civilisation and great people who deserved equal or even more fame than their rival Egyptian civilisation instead were overlooked and its findings and monuments were attributed to their rivals. Belatedly recognised the Nubian culture and history is one of the main concern of archaeologists, scholars, museums and universities world wide nowadays .....

The Kingdom of Cush

Ancient kingdom of Nubia in today's northern Sudan whose rulers conquered southern Egypt in the 8th century BC and established a capital at Napata. From around 730 to 671 BC they ruled over entire Egypt after King Piankhi conquered the rest of Egypt. He had been Cushite ruler since around 751 BC. His son and the second king of the 25th dynasty, Taharka, lost against the Assyrians in 671 but continued to rule until 664 BC. In the 6th century BC the Cushites were forced to move their capital to Meroe where the kingdom flourished until around 350 AD when it was defeated and overrun by the Ethiopians ......

Other Online Links

1. Ancient Nubia (ThinkQuest Team)

2. THE NUBIA SALVAGE PROJECT : Oriental Institute

3. VANISHED KINGDOMS OF THE NILE
The Rediscovery of Ancient Nubia
ORIENTAL INSTITUTE MUSEUM

4. Ancient Nubia: Egypt's Rival in Africa
The Kelsey Museum of Archaeology
The University of Michigan

5. Nubia: The Land Upriver (Anne Powell)


Search: Books ..........
Keywords:

The History of the Ancient Near East Electronic Compendium

NUBIA KINGDOMS WENT ON EVEN AFTER THIS. http://ancientneareast.tripod.com/Nubia.html


. . . October 1995
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RENOWN
UNEARTHED FROM RUINS

By John Woodford

"Africa has no history." Hegel’s disdainful remark has come down to us from the 18th century, echoed not only by contemporary scholars but even, according to The Haldeman Diaries, by a US president. Africa has long lain under the charge that no noteworthy ancient civilizations arose among the myriad Black societies that lived below its Mediterranean regions. The Kelsey Museum of Archaeology’s current three-month exhibition, "Ancient Nubia: Egypt’s Rival in Africa," will go far toward correcting that misimpression.

The exhibition, which opened Sept. 29 and runs through Dec. 15, contains more than 230 objects that span the millennia from 3500 BC to 100 AD from a Black African civilization that arose immediately south of Egypt more than 5,000 years ago. The curator of the exhibition is David O’Connor, who headed the Egyptian section of the University of Pennsylvania’s Museum of Archaeology and is now at the Institute of Fine Arts at New York University.

Nubia’s northern region began at the site of the present-day Aswan Dam, and curled 868 miles down the Nile Valley. By 1700 BC, Nubians lived in sizable cities for those times, forming a class society comprising workers, farmers, priests, soldiers, bureaucrats and an aristocracy, and developing technological and cultural skills on a level with the other advanced civilizations of their day.

Nubia was known as the Kingdom of Kush in the Bible, and the Greek historian Herodotus wrote that Nubia was renowned for its fair rulers and "pious and just" citizens. Nubia traded, conducted diplomacy and occasionally battled with Egyptians, Romans, Judeans and Assyrians. Nubia was colonized by Egypt from around 1500 to 1000 BC, but in 750 BC, the era of the Greek poet Homer, the Nubian King Piye turned the tables, conquering a weakened and disunited Egypt and becoming the first of several Nubian pharaohs who ruled a unified Egyptian and Nubian state for the next century.

Nubians produced and traded gold, ivory, incense, ebony, animal skins, grains, cattle, cotton and smelted iron. They controlled trade between Mediterranean lands and the African societies to the south and were middle men in the slave trade. Nubia, itself, however, O’Connor says, seems never to have served as any more significant source of slaves to Egypt than did nearby Semitic and West Asian lands.

Nubia’s fortunes rose and fell over the millennia, as all civilizations have done. Its last high point in ancient times was the state of Meroe (MAYR-o-way), a great cultural center whose scribes developed an alphabet around 180 BC to better express the Nubian language, which until then had been written with Egyptian hieroglyphs. The Meroitic alphabet is still largely undeciphered, and until linguists crack its code, the sizable number of remaining written records are inaccessible. O’Connor says once the linguistic puzzle has been solved, we’ll know more about the last days of ancient Nubia, which faded around 400 AD. In 500, Nubians turned from their own Egyptian-influenced religion to Christianity, and the region converted heavily to Islam a thousand years later.

Scholars began excavating northern Nubia (which in confusing scholarly parlance is called Lower Nubia because it lies on lower lands along the north-flowing Nile) in the first decade of this century. Yet this exhibition-which began in Philadelphia and visited Newark, Rochester and the Smithsonian Institution in Washington DC before coming to the Kelsey, and is bound next for Baltimore and Minneapolis-is the first major public presentation of Nubian history, culture and artifacts.

Why did Nubian history lie in general obscurity despite the consistent interest in it shown by generations of African American scholars? Ethnocentric bias played a big role in the underappreciation of Nubia, O’Connor says. In his catalog for the exhibit, he notes that many Western scholars have conveyed the idea that Nubia was either backward in comparison with Egypt and other societies of the time, or that Nubians borrowed all of their advanced technologies and ideologies from Egyptians. He cites as an example of "scholarly biases" the practice of translating the Egyptian words heka and wer as "ruler" or "king" when they are applied to heads of Near Eastern kingdoms or states, "but as ‘chief’ for the Nubian [leaders], although nothing in the text warrants the differentiation."

Peter Lacovera, an Egyptologist at Boston’s Museum of Fine Arts, told the Washington Post, "What we realize now is that the Nubians weren’t copying the Egyptians; they were innovators in their own right. In fact, they were often more innovative than the Egyptians in their use of different materials and in their artistic styles. Nubian ceramics were well beyond Egypt in technology and decoration." Nubians also built more pyramids than the Egyptians, although the Nubian version is smaller and has a flat rather than pointed top.
U-M Assoc. Prof. Thelma K. Thomas, an art historian and the Kelsey Museum’s associate curator, points out that George Reisner, who pioneered in Nubian archaeology with his excavations in the early 1900s of a 5,000-year-old Nubian royal cemetery, seems to have been unsettled by his discovery.
Reisner argued that the pottery he had unearthed represented a culture that must have been essentially Egyptian-that is, non-Black, according to the widespread view of that time of a hierarchy of races. He theorized that this original culture soon declined as a result of the "increasing change in the racial character of the people. The negroid element became dominant."

Reisner had to twist his argument through "a good deal of mental gymnastics," Thomas continues, when he attempted to account for facets of Nubian culture that were distinct from Egypt’s. She cites the following passage from his report:

"Thus a race was revealed which had only a political and geographical connection with Egypt. It was racially and culturally descended from the people living in the same place in the Old Kingdom. The Nubian race was negroid, but not negro; it was perhaps a mixture of the proto-Egyptian and a negro or negroid race, possibly related to the Libyan race. It lay outside the cultural influence of Egypt and, seeming to lack power or opportunity of self-culture, developed through several phases of the same quasi-Neolithic state in which we first find it."

Thomas, who is "fascinated by such historiography and by the still-growing accumulation of various versions of ancient Nubian history," says that today statements like Reisner "ought to leap out from the page as offensive as well as misguided." Versions of Nubia’s past are concocted not only by those who would belittle Nubia but also by those who seek to glorify it as a Golden Age state that gave birth to Egyptian civilization. Some members of the African American community seize upon utopian depictions of ancient African societies as a corrective, however exaggerated or even erroneous, to the belittling versions of African cultures that arose as ideological justifications of the slave trade.

Thomas offers as an example of Afrocentric "popular re-imaginings" a comic book about an ancient Nubian super-hero, Heru, Son of Ausar, whose creator Roger Barnes includes a bibliography of African and African American historical interpretations of Nubia.

All over the globe versions of ancient history remain hotly contested by those who excuse or vindicate present policies on the basis of rights they claim through their interpretation of the past. American scholars have reported that some of their Egyptian colleagues think it is ludicrous to devote attention to ancient Nubia, which they have been taught to view as merely a poor country cousin of pharaonic Egypt.

It’s more surprising to hear that the Sudanese establishment, too, shows minimal interest in ancient Nubia. Sudanese archaeologists say that some leaders of the current Islamic state see little value in valorizing the achievements of "pagan" originators of their culture.

Nonetheless, Thomas emphasizes, African archaeologists and historians, including Egyptians and Sudanese, are now playing major roles in reconstructing and reinterpreting Nubian and other early African civilizations that now present the largest remaining uncharted territory for researchers into ancient life.

Attention Expanding
The Kelsey Museum is seizing upon this awakening interest by using the Nubian exhibition "to expand our own attention to Africa beyond Egypt and Tunis, two areas that are well represented in our collections and related research," says Becky Loomis, Kelsey’s education and development officer, who has arranged numerous events to acquaint U-M students, regional school systems and the local community with the exhibition. Meanwhile, Kelsey Assistant Curator Janet Richards is investigating additions of Nubian materials for Kelsey’s permanent exhibit.

Professor O’Connor will give a public lecture on the exhibition Tuesday, Nov. 14 at 7 p.m., Auditorium C, Angell Hall. For other information, call (313) 747-0441.

Initial funding for "Ancient Nubia: Egypt’s Rival in Africa" came from the Pew Charitable Trusts and the National Endowment for the Humanities. Financial support was also provided by the University’s International Institute and the Office of the Vice President for Research. All images used in this article are from the exhibition catalog by David O'Connor and may not be reproduced without permission of the University Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology at the University of Pennsylvania.


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The ancient region of Nubia was located in northeast Africa, in what is now southern Egypt and northern Sudan. The first group of Nubian people that we know much about, called the A-Group by archaeologists, lived around 3500 BC, but there is evidence of civilization in Nubia as far back as 8000 BC.

Because Nubians were great archers, the Egyptians called Nubia "Ta-Seti," or Land of the Bow. The name Nubia came into use in the Middle Ages.

Although it was a hot, dry land, ancient Nubia was a treasure trove of gold, ivory, stone, and other riches, and therefore a tempting target to foreign rulers. At times Egypt ruled Nubia; at other times, various Nubian kingdoms flourished.

The great kingdom of Kush (or Cush) was located in south Nubia. The ancient Greeks called it Ethiopia. In the 8th century BC, Kush -- led by King Piankhi (or Piye) and later his brother and successor King Shabaka -- conquered Egypt. These Kushite kings founded Egypt's 25th ruling dynasty. After Shabaka died, Piankhi's son Shebitku became pharaoh; he was succeeded by his brother Taharqa.

But the Nubian Dynasty's reign in Egypt proved to be short-lived. In the middle of the 7th century BC, Taharqa was driven out of Egypt by the Assyrians. He and his cousin Tanutamon, who succeeded Taharqa as king of Kush, tried but failed to regain the Egyptian throne.

Around 592 BC, Egypt sacked Kush's capital, Napata. After that, the city of Meroe became the capital of Kush. The kingdom lasted for some 900 years more.

One notable Kushite ruler was the fierce one-eyed warrior queen Amanirenas, who battled an occupying Roman army in the first century AD. Her ambassadors were conducted into the presence of the Roman emperor Augustus Caesar, and according to the Roman writer Strabo, they "obtained all that they desired, and Caesar even remitted the tribute which he had imposed." Queen Amanirenas had won; the Romans withdrew from most of Nubia.

It seems Kush gradually went into decline, and crumbled completely after the armies of Aksum (an kingdom of ancient Ethiopia) conquered Meroe around 350 AD. New kingdoms arose in Nubia, and these kingdoms started converting to Christianity in the 6th century AD. Around 1400, Nubia began falling under the control of Arab rulers, and many Nubians converted to Islam. But much of Nubian culture has survived through the centuries, and the Nubian language is still spoken today in Egypt and Sudan.

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Books About Nubia
Unless otherwise noted, these books are for sale at Amazon.com. Your purchase from Amazon or Alibris through these links will help to support the continued operation and improvement of the Royalty.nu site.

Book Categories: Nubia, Kush, Funj, Sudan, Africa, Egypt, Ethiopia, Children's Books

Nubia and Egypt
Ancient Nubia: Egypt's Rival in Africa by David O'Connor. Based on a museum exhibition, this book includes drawings, maps, and photographs.

The Black Pharaohs: Egypt's Nubian Rulers by Robert G. Morkot. A powerful kingdom arose in northern Sudan (Kush) during the 9th century BC. Conquering Egypt, its kings ruled the Nile Valley from the Mediterranean as far as Khartoum for half a century.

From Slave to Pharaoh: The Black Experience of Ancient Egypt by Donald B. Redford. Examines the interactions between Egypt and the Nubian and Sudanese civilizations to the south, focusing on the role of racial identity in the formulation of imperial power in Egypt.

Piankhy in Egypt: A Study of the Piankhy Stela by Hans Goedicke. Piankhi or Piye was a king of Kush who invaded Egypt.

Kingdom of Kush
The Kingdom of Kush: Handbook of the Napatan-Meriotic Civilization by Laszlo Torok. Discusses the emergence of the native state of Kush, the rule of the kings of Kush in Egypt, and the history of the kingdom in the Napatan and Meroitic periods. Includes a genealogy of the kings of Kush from Alara to Nastasen.

The Kingdom of Kush: The Napatan and Meroitic Empires by Derek A. Welsby. A scholarly look at the ancient kingdom. Includes illustrations.

Egypt and Ethiopia
Books About Royalty in Egypt
Books About Ethiopian Royalty

Funj Kings
The Sudan of the Three Niles: The Funj Chronicle, 910-1288/1504-1871 by P.M. Holt. The Funj kings reigned in Sudan from the 16th century through the 19th century.

Sudan
A History of the Sudan: From the Coming of Islam to the Present Day by P.M. Holt and M.W. Daly. A comprehensive introductory history of the Sudan.

Historical Dictionary of the Sudan by Robert S. Kramer, Carolyn Fluehr-Lobban. Focuses on the Sudan in Islamic times from the 14th century to the present, including info on the sultanates of Sinnar and Dar Fur, the Mahdiya, and the history of Islam in the Sudan.

Sudan: Ancient Kingdoms of the Nile edited by Dietrich Wildung, translated by Peter Der Manuelian. Exhibition catalog with large photographs and illustrations.

More Books About Nubia
Children's Books
The Ancient African Kingdom of Kush by Pamela F. Service is for children ages 9 to 12.

The Land of Gold by Gillian Bradshaw. After the murder of her parents, a Nubian princess is helped to her rightful place on the throne by two friendly Egyptians. For children. Out of print, but available from Alibris.

Other Children's Books About Africa

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Ancient Nubia: The Kingdom of Kush
Images from the Kingdom of Kush at Meroe
Kush: Black Africa's Earliest Civilisation
Kush, Meroe, and Nubia
Ancient History Sourcebook: Accounts of Meroe, Kush, and Axum
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Definition of a civilization According to my definition of a civilization the ancient Nubian qualify in all fields. They have achieved a division of labor, which sparked advanced government, a written language, advanced technology, and a calendar. Division of labor During the Neolithic age, the Nubian people abandoned their hunter-gatherer society and adopted a new way of life, one with farming and raising animals. It created a division of labor. In the early stages there were a few basic occupations one could pursue. Farming, ranching, and medicine making were the most common of the early careers. As the Nubian civilization evolved many other occupations became available to the people. There were need for hotels, markets, bathhouses, artist, priest, and blacksmiths. One could also take a career as a politician, military officer, record keeper or other careers related to the government. Trading was another way to go. Many people made a living by managing the trade with other countries or working on the trade ships. The division of labor required Nubian’s to stay in one area rather than travel the land by seasons, and in turn that spawned all other aspects of their civilization. Advanced government Before the N This paper is the property of NetEssays.Net Copyright © 1999-2004

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Teaching Packs based on the Waldorf Approach to Education

All lessons are designed to appeal to the heart, head and hands

Contact: Dr. David L. Mollet tel/fax (619) 463-1270
email: waldorfedu@cox.net 6656 Reservoir Lane, San Diego, CA 92115









Kush - Africa's oldest interior civilization

The ancient civilization of Kush is often a neglected area of the ancient civilization curriculum.

However, if students are to have a balanced view of the development of civilizations throughout the world, then they need to learn about this ancient civilization of the interior of Africa.

As Kush possessed all the features of a major civilization it should take its place alongside the other major civilizations of the ancient world.

Kush was not simply an extension of its northern neighbor Egypt, but a civilization in its own right, with a distinct and separate culture.

Influenced by Egypt on some occasions and influencing Egypt on others, Kush nevertheless followed a unique path of development.

With this in mind Waldorf Education Resources has produced a teaching pack with three SubUnits on Kush, starting with the Kerma culture and taking students through to the destruction of Meroe by the king of Axum.

Unit 4 Kush
SubUnit 1: Historical & Geographical Background
SubUnit 2: Kush: The Kerma Period
SubUnit 3: Kush: Napatan/Meroitic Period
(Review exercises included in each SubUnit)

Each SubUnit (not Unit) costs $19.95 (This price includes permission to photocopy)

Click here for Order Form
Click here if you are interested in your students working with top quality authentic papyrus (imported from Egypt). Make sure your students know about the writing medium used in Egypt, Kush, Greece and Rome.


Teaching Packs based on the Waldorf Approach to Education

All lessons are designed to appeal to the heart, head and hands

Contact: Dr. David L. Mollet tel/fax (619) 463-1270
email: waldorfedu@cox.net 6656 Reservoir Lane, San Diego, CA 92115

http://members.cox.net/waldorfedu/waldorfeduPages/Kush.html


[quote="KENNDO"]| | BLACK KINGDOMS OF THE NILE EPISODE | |

By Timothy Kendall
In the 1820s, the Western world was thrilled to hear news of the rediscovery of the monuments of ancient Nubia - or "Kush," as it was called in the Bible. The ruins, hundreds of miles south of Egypt in the Sudan, had been reported almost simultaneously by individual British, French, and American travellers, whose excited descriptions and glorious illustrations of temples and pyramid fields delighted scholars and reawakened interest in this mysterious African kingdom.

Greek traditions told of Memnon, a legendary Nubian king who had fought in the Trojan War; they spoke of Nubia's people, who were the "tallest and handsomest on earth," and whose piety was so great that the gods preferred their offerings to those of all other men. They also knew that historical Nubian kings had once conquered Egypt and ruled it for sixty years and that their dynasty was counted as Egypt's Twenty-fifth. The Greeks, however, did not call these people "Nubians" or "Kushites," as we do today; they called them Aithiopes ("Ethiopians"), which in Greek meant "Burnt-Faced Ones." They knew perfectly well that Nubians were black-skinned, as are the Sudanese of the same regions today.

During the 1840s, the great German egyptologist, Karl Richard Lepsius (1810-1884) led an expedition to record the monuments of Egypt and Sudan for the King of Prussia. On his return, he asserted confidently that the Greek term "Ethiopian," when referring to the ancient civilized people of Kush, did not apply to "negroes," but was used to describe reddish-skinned people closely related to the Egyptians, who "belonged to the Caucasian race." Again, in 1852, when the American diplomat Bayard Taylor (1825-1878) visited Sudan and gazed upon the temple carvings of sumptuously clad gods and rulers with clearly African features, he also found it inconceivable that they could have been created by black-skinned Africans. Rather, he asserted, echoing Lepsius, they must have been created by Egyptians or by immigrants from India or Arabia, or, in any case, "by an offshoot ... of the race to which we belong."

Lepsius and Taylor failed to acknowledge the fact that the Greeks themselves never confused "Ethiopians" with Egyptians, or that they always used the term "Ethiopian" to apply equally to the peoples of Kush and central Africa. Such racist opinions and "scientific" distortions among Western scholars of the 19th century, while not universal, did, unhappily, predominate and shaped the attitudes that for another full century would retard and confuse the discipline of Nubian Studies and African civilization in general.

So remote was the northern Sudan that scientific archaeology could not take place there until the British seized control of the country in 1898 and opened it up with the completion the Cairo-Khartoum railway. The first major excavations were undertaken by famed Egyptologist George A. Reisner (1867-1942), whose team, sponsored by Harvard University and the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, would first excavate Kerma in 1913, the Gebel Barkal Temples from 1916-1920, and all the royal pyramids of Kush between 1917-1924. Almost single-handedly, Reisner laid the foundations of Nubian history, reconstructing it from the Bronze Age to the dawn of the Christian era. He also deciphered the names and approximate order and dates of all the Kushite monarchs through some seventy generations, from the 8th century B.C. to the 3rd century A.D. It was a towering achievement, almost unparalleled in the annals of archaeology.

While Reisner's deductions still strike us as astonishing for their brilliance and essential correctness, we are equally appalled to discover his inability to accept that the monuments he excavated were built by bona fide black men. Using entirely specious evidence, he formulated a theory that the founders of the 25th or "Ethiopian" Dynasty of Egypt were not black Sudanese but rather a branch of the "Egypto-Libyan" (by which he meant "fair skinned") ruling class of Dynasty 22, and that they were called "Ethiopians" by the Greeks simply because they dominated a darker-skinned native "negroid" population, which, as he stated, "had never developed either its trade or any industry worthy of mention." Like Taylor and Lepsius, believing absolutely that skin pigmentation was a determinant of intellectual ability and enlightenment, Reisner attributed the apparent cultural decline of the Napatan phase of the Kushite culture (ca. 660-300 B.C.) to the "deadening effects" of racial intermarriage between his imagined light-skinned elite and darker-skinned hoi poloi. The Meroitic cultural renaissance (after ca. 300 B.C.) he explained as simply the result of new influxes of Egyptians. Nubian cultures, he reasoned, were not as developed as the Egyptian because the people were of mixed race, yet by virtue of their relationship to the superior Egyptian race, they were elevated far above the "the inert mass of the black races of Africa."

This was Reisner at his worst. Such unabashed racist interpretations, widely published in scholarly journals at the time and accepted as gospel by the popular press, today offend and embarrass all of us. Yet it is interesting to note how such pervasive racism then affected the discipline of Nubian Studies in America. Reisner, very much a product of his time, seems to have had an unconscious need to believe that his Kushite kings were "white" (or "white men" in darker skin, or dark men with "white souls") in order to make them and their culture more worthy of study to himself and more acceptable to the contemporary scholarly and museum-going public -- and perhaps even to his financial backers at the Museum of Fine Arts. Yet whether judged as "white" or "black," Nubian civilization could not have received much popular interest at the time. If it were merely an offshoot of a "white" Egypt in central Africa, as Reisner theorized, then it would inevitably be judged as late, decadent, and "peripheral" (i.e to the Egyptocentered and Eurocentered universe). If it were "black," then in the minds of his contemporaries it would be utterly irrelevant to history. In either case, it seemed to offer few attractions as an area of study for Egypologists of that generation, and almost none pursued it. Contemporary books on Egyptian history virtually ignored it.

Even as late as the 1940s and 50s, the racial identity of the Nubians remained problematic for "white" scholars. For example, when the bones of the Kushite royalty, recovered from Reisner's excavations, were sent for analysis to the specialists at the Peabody Museum at Harvard, the latter identified them as belonging to the "basic white stock of Egypt". In this case, the osteologists, like Lepsius, Taylor and Reisner, evidently wished to claim them for their "own race." Yet when the respected University of Chicago Egyptologists Keith Seele and Georg Steindorff, who were not subscribers to Reisner's "Libyan theory," published their own history of Egypt in 1942, When Egypt Ruled the East, they left no doubt about their biases in the two sentences they used to dismiss the 25th Dynasty:

"In the place of a native Egyptian pharaoh or of the usurping Libyans, the throne of Egypt was occupied by a Negro king from Ethiopia! But his dominion was not for long."

Today, fifty-seven years after the publication of this book, the 25th Dynasty "Negro" kings are now recognized as having sponsored an important renaissance of Egyptian art and culture; they developed an almost scholarly interest in ancient Egyptian traditions and language and have been called "the first Egyptologists." The empire over which they presided was greater in extent than any ever achieved in antiquity along the Nile Valley. Their kings were said never to have condemned prisoners to death; they forgave their enemies and allowed them to retain their offices; they also actually gave public credit for achievement in their inscriptions to individuals other than themselves. Such characteristics among other ancient monarchs of Egypt or the Near East are unheard of, and we can only assume these were native Nubian qualities. Yet for Egyptologists of the first half of the 20th century, the fact that they were "negro" marked this period as the lowest level to which Egyptian civilization had sunk in all its history.

When the mass of material from Reisner's excavations in the Sudan was sent back to the Boston Museum in 1924, most of it went into storage and was all but forgotten. When in the late 1970s it was rediscovered by the Museum's curators, they joyously identified it as one of the Museum's most important and unique treasures, assigned it to several national and international touring exhibitions, and finally installed it in a special permanent gallery.

"White racism" in scholarly circles disappeared with the Civil Rights movement of the 1960s, but it was replaced with a virulent new "black racism," which many African-Americans adopted as a belated response to the former, even before the rehabilitation of ancient Kush. This spawned the discipline called Afrocentrism, which interpreted ancient African history through the anger of the modern black experience, and which vaunted Egypt as a "black African" culture and even the fountainhead of European civilization. Ironically, like the racism of Reisner's day, this trend also diminished the significance of Kush, since the exponents minimized the ethnic and cultural differences between it and Egypt and still give primary emphasis to the achievements of Egypt.

In the 1990s, the future of Nubian Studies in America looks brighter than ever. The "blackness" of Kushite art and culture, which once generally negated its interest for Americans, is now precisely what makes it so interesting for them. It is to be hoped that in the new millennium all Americans will come to grasp -- what neither Reisner and his contemporaries, on the one hand, understood nor the modern Afrocentrists, on the other, understand -- that proper study of the past is not attainable unless we can identify and transcend our own biases. At some point we will all need to recognize that "the race to which we belong" -- to use Bayard Taylor's phrase -- is neither black nor white, but simply human, with all its extraordinary creative abilities and all its eternal failings.

| | BLACK KINGDOMS OF THE NILE EPISODE | |


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Nubia

When discussing the civilisations of the Nile Valley, many histories focus almost exclusively on the role of Egypt.

But this approach ignores the emergence further south on the Nile of the kingdom known to the Egyptians as Kush, in the region called Nubia - the area now covered by southern Egypt and Northern Sudan.

The relationship between Egypt and Kush was a complex one, which changed depending on the political and economic climate of the time.

"Nubia was the meeting place of the Mediterranean and African civilisation. The relationship between Egypt and upper Nubia was completely different from time to time and period to period. If the Egyptian king's power is widespread it catches everything under its control and Nubia comes under Egyptian authority, but if it is weak, then upper Nubia is ruled by itself."
Osama Abdel Meguid, Director of the Nubian Museum in Aswan.

KERMA AND NAPATA
The Kushites were first based in Kerma, and then at Napata - both towns in what is now northern Sudan.

Kerma was an advanced society and archaeological evidence shows that ceramics were being produced by 8,000 BC - earlier than in Egypt. By about 1700 BC, the town had grown into a town of 10,000 people with a complex hierarchical society.

Egypt could not ignore its southern neighbour although its interest was predominantly economic. Nubia was rich with minerals such as stones needed for the building of temples and tombs, and gold, needed for jewelry. Indeed Kush was one of the major gold producers of the ancient world.

At one stage Nubia, was occupied by Egypt for about 500 years and then the tables turned. From around 850 BC, the Egyptian state fell into such decline that what became known as the twenty-fifth dynasty rose in Nubia, with authority over all of Egypt.

This dynasty based at Napata was known as the 'Ethiopian' dynasty. Although it was heavily influenced by Egyptian culture and religion, it was in many ways the first great African power.

"They dealt like Egyptians, they dressed like Egyptians, but they were still proud of their black faces."
Osama Abdel Meguid, Director of the Nubian Museum in Aswan.

In 713 BC King Shabaka came to power in Kush and brought the Nile Valley as far as the Delta under his control. The name of one of his successors, King Taharqa, is found on inscriptions throughout the Valley.

MOVING TO MEROE
The dynasty ended following a military defeat at the hands of the Assyrians and in about 600 BC the capital of the Kushite kingdom was moved from Napata to Meroe, further south along the Nile.

Listen to a dramatisation of Greek geographer Strabo's description of Meroe

This, symbolically, was a move closer to black Africa, and the kingdom that grew up around Meroe was one that very much reflected African influences. The Meroites have been given much less historical attention than the Egyptians but in many ways it was a kingdom that rivaled Egypt in material wealth and distinctive cultural development.

"From the graves and from the images painted on tombs we can see that people looked much more African than Mediterranean. The jewelry is really of an African nature - like anklets, bracelets, ear studs and earrings - and you can still find the style of the jewelry used by the Meroites on tribes of the savannah belt south of Khartoum."
Dr Salah el-Din Muhammed Ahmed, Director of Fieldwork at the National Museum in Khartoum.

Listen to Dr Salah El-Din Muhammed Ahmed, Director of Fieldwork at the National Museum, Khartoum, describing Meroite features as African

Meroe was a complex, advanced and politically stable society. It relied on elected kingship with elaborate coronation ceremonies in which the Queen mother played an important role. Excavations of the large ancient city have revealed palaces, royal baths and temples.

EXPANDING KINGDOMS
Meroe's wealth was partly based on trade and commerce, particularly after the Second Century when the camel was introduced to Africa and there was a flourishing of caravan routes across the continent. Its position gave Meroe strategic access to trading outlets on the Red Sea. Pottery, jewelry and woven cloth were all produced to a high standard of craftsmanship.

The kingdom also had the resources needed for the smelting of iron: ore, water from the Nile and wood from acacia trees to make charcoal. Iron gave the Meroites spears, arrows axes and hoes, allowing them to develop a mixed farming economy to exploit to the full the tropical summer rainfall.

Although influenced by the Egyptian state gods, such as Amun, Meroe developed its own forms of religious worship. The most important regional deity was the Lion God, Apedemek - often portrayed with a lion's head on a human body.

As Meroe became more distanced from Egypt, so too was the Egyptian language replaced as the spoken language of the court. Instead a Meroitic alphabet and script were introduced, which to this day researchers have been unable to decipher.

The Kingdom of Meroe began to fade as a power by the first or second century AD, sapped by war with Roman Egypt and the decline of its traditional industries. The iron industry had used up huge quantities of charcoal leading to deforestation and the land began to lose its fertility.

In around 350 AD, an army led by Ezana, King of the growing kingdom of Axum in what is now Ethiopia, invaded Meroe - but by then Meroites had already dispersed, replaced by a people described by the Axumites as Noba.

Listen to Osama Abdel Meguid, Director of the Nubian Museum in Aswan, discussing the Nubian love of the Nile

FOR ABOVE WHEN THE AUTHOR MENTIONS TOWN,HE IS TALKING ABOUT A CITY ,LIKE THE CITY OF KERMA AND NAPATA.


Early Settlers

Egypt

Key Events

Nubia

The People

Forces For Change

Timeline

Further Reading

Useful Links
NUBIA IN THE FIRST CEN. A.D. DEVELOPED ALSO A FORM OF STEEL CALLED BLUE CARBON STEEL,THE MOST ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY IN THE ANCIENT WORLD AND THE MEDIEVAL AND EARLY MODERN PERIOD.STEEL MAKING BECAME MORE WIDESPREAD IN NUBIA AFTER IN POST MEROE AND LATER TIMES,AND LATER NUBIA WAS MORE ADVANCED THAN KUSH,IN FACT NUBIA WAS THE MOST ADVANCED CIVILIZATION IN AFRICA UNTIL MODERN TIMES,NOW MANY WEST AFRICAN AND OTHER STATES IN AFRICA ARE MORE ADVANCED LIKE SOUTHERN AFRICA AND MANY OTHER REGIONS EXCEPT ARAB RULED AFRICA.ARAB AFRICA IS THE LEAST ADVANCED IN AFRICA.

Axum only conquered some parts of nubia but they were kick out by the nubians in about 6 months and new nubian kingdoms were form in upper and southern nubia, but upper and lower nubia had new kingdoms first before the southern nubians kick out the axumites in 6 months
THE arabs never really conqured all of nubia,it was only the upper and northern part,and the christian nubian kingdom of alwa in southern nubia was conqured by the funj with arab help.the funj were a group of black africans from sennar a region that became a part of nubia earlier,and it a part of nubia,the blue nile area up to sennar a great city.THE FUNJ were a confederation of southern nubians and other africans, and they reconqured the rest of nubia from the arabs.later more clear new nubian kingdoms were form until the british conquest of the sudan,but some nubians remain free and the british never could conqure them.nubian civilization is still here today.

Correction for 1 above article,kush did not deline or was sap of energy because of war with rome/roman egypt,there were other factors and the deline happen 3 cen. ad,not 2 cen.ad but even in this time kush
military might was stronger,and wealth was still there .decline in this period meant other factors.The
kushite greatest golden age or greastest height was 250 b.c. to 200 a.d. but in 200's a.d. kushite culture
became more advanced



http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/africa/features/storyofafrica/3chapter4.shtml

THESE ARE THE FACTS.NUBIAN CIVILIZATION WAS FIRST, THEN EGYPT CAME AND LATER EGYPT PASSED IT,THAN NUBIA CAUGHT UP AGAIN AND LATER PASS EGYPT AND BECAME MORE ADVANCED AND MORE SO IN MERIOTIC TIMES MEROE WAS MORE ADVANCED THAN ANCIENT EGYPT,AND THE POST MERIOTIC PERIOD ,AND THE CHRISTIAN NUBIAN KINGDOMS MORE SO IN MEDIEVAL TIMES AND THE MUSLIM NUBIAN KINDGOMS- FUNJ KINGDOM(A CONFEDERATION OF NUBIANS AND OTHER AFRICANS WHO'S BASIC CULTURE WAS NUBIAN AND MANY LEADERS WERE PART NUBIAN OR NUBIAN)-AND TWO NEW NUBIAN KINGDOMS LATER OF MUSLIM NUBIA.


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kenndo
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medieval nubia
click here for newcomers http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001718.html

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kenndo
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quote:
Originally posted by YuhiVII:
Kenndo, you seem to know quite a bit about this place.The region you speak of has many names depending on who was writing a narrative on it:

from the Hebrews - Kush
from the Greeks - Aethiopia
from the Romans - Nubia
from the Arabs - Sudan

The question is what did the native people of that land call it?


THE info i had on what the nubians called there place i had written down,but i can't recall now,i am so used to calling it nubia,but good question,i have to get back to you on that,in the meantime you could ask this person,he is a scholar on nubian history,but nubians did have various names for their kingdoms,like wawat,yam and so on.

i know later nubian kings called one of their kingdoms - kush, and that term was use by them but they must had other names too,but they seem to have no problem with kush from some books i have read and egyptians used it too.

RLobban@ric.edu


[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 21 May 2005).]


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Egmond Codfried
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Dear Lamin,

You have alerted me to your presence on this forum by posting in my thread THE ENEMY OF THE NEGRO IS THE NEGRO HIMSELF, for which I thank you. It's a pity we have to sneak around here with fake names because I would like to know if you have published, where you are at, where you come from. I'm Surinamese and I use my own name, under which I also publish.

You are obviously a man of parts, learning and good breeding, and I will read all the threads you have started. I need more Diop for my next book. Always assumed that civilisation started in Africa so any development should also be claimed, followed and discussed by Africans.

I have found that the European elite (1500-1789) was very afrocentric in their ideas (and looks), and the nonsense of Africans, Blacks, as inferior only sprang up around 1770. The reasons for this change I discuss in my BLUE BLOOD IS BLACK BLOOD THREADS.

Egyptology is wonderful but I sense a lot of endlessly spinning wheels with Black scientist, but getting nowhere. There is very little impact toward changing the position of Black's through the study of Egyptology. So I would like to see a plan of action toward change, on the basis of these studies, and not just the same things over and over again.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000602

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000529

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000677


quote:
Originally posted by lamin:
Cheikh Anta Diop once wrote that Ancient Egypt should serve as the same kind of patrimonial model for Africa as Ancient Greek serves for Europe. The question is how viable is such a model for the African world(Diop was Pan-Africanist in this regard)? And if it is viable why hasn't it not yet been developed.

In the case of Ancient Greece one notes the great impact and influence that Greek philosophy--British philosopher A.N. Whitehead once argued that the history of Western philosophy is not much more than footnotes to Plato and Aristotle, Greek literature, Greek historiography, Greek art and Greek theoretical work in science and mathematics(note the reliance on the Greek alphabet in higher mathematics) has had on Europe. And it was Greek philosophy that upgraded Christian thought from dogma to discursive analysis(theology); and Greek philosophy again that served as the template for the European Renaissance.

Can similar parallels be found with Ancient Egypt and the rest of Africa? I think that this is a complex question because only Plotinus and dynamic holism and the Egyptian approach to engineering, architecture and the Armana model in art would seem to be useful as a model for the contemporary African world.

I say this with the full recognition that neither modern Iraq nor modern Iran seem to be much influenced by the respective paradigms of Mesopotamia and Persia--their whole classical cultures being overlaid by the dictates of Islam. Would it be different for Ancient Egypt as model for contemporary Africa?

There was a time when colonial ideology once taught Africans erroneously that their ancestors were Gauls("nos ancestres les Gaulois") or that the British monarch was the African monarch( on Empire Day many Africans thought nothing wrong about singing "God Save the King/Queen" and "Rule Britannia--Britannia Rules the Waves--Britons never never will be Slaves...").

That kind of thing has been rejected on account of the shaping nature of hard experience but there is some question as to what has replaced it. Hence Diop's thesis about Ancient Egypt.


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Djehuti
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^ Ignoring the nonsense above, the answer to Lamin's thread question is NO, Ancient Egypt should not serve as Africa's paradigm. The reason being is that unlike Europe, Africa is far larger and much more diverse, and that the cultures of modern Africa while being related to Egypt in some way as Africans, do NOT derive from Egypt the way many cultures of Europe derive from Greece.

This I think is important in that we have to be reminded that whereas Europeans can only turn to the roots of Greek civilization only, Africans have dozens of civilizations that they call their roots.

Here are most of them below:

 -

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alTakruri
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Notwithstanding the fact of Africa's diversity in
all things from the physical to the cultural and all,
of course ancient Egypt serves as Africa's paradigm
if that term can be applied outside of hard science
and not in the sense of copying or emulating rather
as a model or example of beliefs, values, and the like.
quote:

The history of Africa will remain suspended in air and cannot be written
correctly until African historians connect it with the history of Egypt.
...
The African historian who evades the problem of Egypt is neither modest
or objective, nor unruffled, he is ignorant, cowardly, and neurotic."

The vast majority of we who are African or of the
African diaspora recognize this as our working
premise. And it is we who apply Diop's quote and
we whom Diop's quote applies to.

The Egypt/Africa paradigm need not follow the pattern
of the Greece/Europe paradigm in that we do not need
to imitate European precedent for our methods to be
viable and applicable.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=002009#000003

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rasol
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^ Astute observation.

If I were an African imperialist and wanted to destroy Europe's conception of history, i would begin by removing Greece as a founding reference point, and thus casting 'europe' adrift in history.

This is what Euro-imperialists attempt to perpetrate against Africa.

Real Europe - i would imply, is barbarian Europe.

And Diop is correct too, that African scholars who evade Europe, or deny Blackness are just cowardly.

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Whatbox
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agree with the above two posts:

quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
If I were an African imperialist and wanted to destroy Europe's conception of history, i would begin by removing Greece as a founding reference point, and thus casting 'europe' adrift in history.

This is what Euro-imperialists attempt to perpetrate against Africa.

It's nearly an impossible feat though, for a reasons.

  • Removing Kemet from the history doesn't set 'Africa' adrift.
  • It's pretty much impossible to remove Kemet (in it's language, people, society, culture, politics) from Africa.



quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
The Egypt/Africa paradigm need not follow the pattern
of the Greece/Europe paradigm in that we do not need
to imitate European precedent for our methods to be
viable and applicable.

^Genius. Right on the mark, as with Diop's quote.
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Ebony Allen
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Carthage wasn't African.
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argyle104
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Ebony Allen aka Bettyboo wrote:

----------------------
----------------------


You said it. Happy now? : )


The posters with intelligence know that you are a white boy.

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Djehuti
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^ Oh do STFU with your pathetic projection!..

Anyway, if by paradigm one meant par-exemplar then yes Egypt would represent a par-exemplar of African culture.

As for Rasol pointing out how Europe was mostly 'barbarian', of course such a term is insulting or disparaging to cultures that don't live up to the Western ideal of civilization, but therein lies the paradox is it not? If one were to go by biased Western standards of culture than the West's very history would be primarily deemed of as 'barbaric' indeed.

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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
.. the answer to Lamin's thread question is NO, Ancient Egypt should not serve as Africa's paradigm. The reason being is that unlike Europe, Africa is far larger and much more diverse, and that the cultures of modern Africa while being related to Egypt in some way as Africans, do NOT derive from Egypt the way many cultures of Europe derive from Greece.
 -

I would have to agree with this. AE is important, but it is only one model in the mix. Several others show on your map, including Ethiopia. Also as regards Egypt, the genesis of much of AE civ was in the Sahara- as shown by Wilkinson, eita, Wendorf, etc etc.. Your thread on the "black mummy" being discovered in the Sahara confirms this for it shows that a lot of the foundational thing people associate with AE derive from the Sahara and north and east Africa. It was these people that got the ball rolling, and kept it rolling. Even in religion we can see that influence, such as in the appearance of cattle. As even one old ref says about Egyptian religion:

"A large number of gods go back to prehistoric times. The images of a cow and star goddess (Hathor), the falcon (Horus), and the human-shaped figures of the fertility god (Min) can be traced back to that period. Some rites, such as the "running of the Apil-bull," the "hoeing of the ground," and other fertility and hunting rites (e.g., the hippopotamus hunt) presumably date from early times.. Connections with the religions in southwest Asia cannot be traced with certainty."

"It is doubtful whether Osiris can be regarded as equal to Tammuz or Adonis, or whether Hathor is related to the "Great Mother." There are closer relations with northeast African religions. The numerous animal cults (especially bovine cults and panther gods) and details of ritual dresses (animal tails, masks, grass aprons, etc) probably are of African origin. The kinship in particular shows some African elements, such as the king as the head ritualist (i.e., medicine man), the limitations and renewal of the reign (jubilees, regicide), and the position of the king's mother (a matriarchal element). Some of them can be found among the Ethiopians in Napata and Meroe, others among the Prenilotic tribes (Shilluk)." (Encyclopedia Britannica 1974 ed. Macropedia Article, Vol 6: "Egyptian Religion" , pg 506-508)


While not in any way diminishing AE of the pyramids, maybe the question should be flipped around in reverse? That is, it is Africa that shaped AE and made it what it was. In other words, the Africa of the Sahara is the "original" model. That model would include the hustling, bustling agriculturalists and cattle herders, the creative artists of the Sahara who left behind their superb art on the rocks of the Sahara, the priests and medicine men of the Sahara, Nubia and the Sudan, etc etc.

Now things arent left there, for all these threads and strands combined and mingled over time to produce the dynastic civilization, including not only AE, but also Nubia, Meroe, Kush, etc Even if you look at that map you post, you can see that Ghana, Mali and some other of the great West African states draw from the Sahara. Whether you look east or West, the Sahara is there, not as desert but as the varied territory it has been throughout history.

Eurocentric hisory has always shortchanged the Saharan roots, looking to the Mediterranean, Near East, 'Nordic' Europe, India, Islamic/Arab and even Cro-Magnons as the source of inspiration for any advanced developments in Africa. But could it not be said that the Sahara is the foundation?


PS: another interesting blurb shows up in that older reference. Under the article 'Egyptian law" it sez:


"Ancient Egyptian law was remarkable in terms of its lines of application, since it has as its primary objective, the promotion of basic human rights. There were, certainly, periods of regression, but these were balanced by others in which great forward strides were made..

"Yet Bocchoris freed the individual, suppressed imprisonment for debt, prohibited the interest of a debt from doubling the capital, and fixed the rules of written contracts; he also initiated certain reforms dealing with the mobility of private property. All these changes were eminently important, but correspond with the spirit of th Egyptian law in the high points of its history."

"Furthernmore, Egyptian law had a definite effect on Greek law during the Hellenistic period and later on Roman imperial law. Even before this time, Egyptian influence has been felt on Greek law, for in the early 6th century BC Solon, an early Athenian lawgiver, came to Egypt anbd was inspired by the legislative work of Bocchoris. The result was a decisive turn in Greek law, although the Greeks never emancipated women as had the Egyptians."


Now this passage appears in the conservative Encyclopedia Brittanica, 1974 ed, long before Afrocentrism as such became popular or Martin Bernal. (ref: Encyclopedia Britannica 1974 ed. Macropedia Article, Vol 6: "Egyptian Law" , pg 503)

A lot of would be critics on the web charge that those who want a more balanced view of African history are pulling stuff out of the hat or making things up, but the new data you guys are putting out here on this forum again and again seems to confirm much older observations made by people who in the conditions of their times were very biased. Nevertheless the new data time and time again backs up what even these hostile observers noted a long time ago. The limb proportion studies by Zakrewski for example confirms observations almost a century old. The matches between the Kerma skeletal remains and those of Upper Egypt that Keita notes, goes way back to observations made in the 1920s. Keita notes this again and again when he goes back adn reads the original excavation reports, where the data on the ground can be examined, unfiltered by Aryan models and such..

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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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Diop if I remember held that the Egyptians of today, while undergoing much influence via Arabs, modern migration, and the eras of greeks, Romans etc, basically and fundamentally remained connected to the ancient African stock. He pointed to the Copts as one example.


Found a blurb on a website that waved this quote supposedly debunking Diop.


Borgognini Tarli S.M., Paoli G. 1982. Survey on paleoserological studies. Homo, 33: 69-89

"The ABO blood type frequencies of ancient Egyptians showed no signs of differing significantly from that of present-day Egyptians. According to the authors, "the blood-group distribution obtained for Asiut, Gebelen and Aswan necropoles shows resemblances with the present leucoderm population of Egypt and particularly with its more 'conservative' fraction (the Copts, MOURANT et al., 1976)."
---------------

Seems to me that the only thing wrong with waving this blurb is that 'leucoderm' doesnt necessarily equal white. Since African genetic diversity is highest in the world, light skin is nothing new and is part of the built-in African genetic mix particularly in northeast Africa. And, the more conservative fraction spoken of above, the Copts, show high admixtures of Negroid bood, to use the terminology of the times in the older reference below, with the 'negroid' element blood being stronger in olden times than in modern Egypt (with its comparatively recent arab, euro and mid east mixes).

quote:
"In Libya, which is mostly desert and oasis, there is a visible Negroid element in the sedentary populations, and the same is true of the Fellahin of Egypt, whether Copt or Muslim. Osteological studies have shown that the Negroid element was stronger in predynastic times than at present, reflecting an early movement northward along the banks of the Nile, which were then heavily forested." (Encyclopedia Britannica 1974 and 1982 eds. "Populations, Human")

So the more "conservative" Coptic element actually leans more African than European/Middle Eastern. Strangely, (or perhaps not [Smile] the blurb does not mention that the very same Paoli did earlier blood testing, and found that the dynastic Egyptians matched up better with the black Haratin of the Sahara, than they did with Europeans. The q element in particular appeared in very low frequencies in Euro populations compared to that of the Haratin and dynastic Egyptians. So maybe Diop isnt debunked at all. Seems like the opposite.

---------------
Paoli 1972 found a significant resemblance between ABO frequencies of dynastic Egyptians and the black northern Haratin who are held to be the descendants of the original Saharans (Hiernaux, 1975).

G. Paoli, in "ABO Typing of Ancient Egyptians" IN _Population biology
of ancient Egyptians_, edited by D.R. Brothwell and B.A. Chiarelli, London,
New York, 1973, showed that the Dynastic Egyptians were most closely matched
with the Haratin of the northern Sahara. Paoli mentions the theory of
Cabot-Briggs (Cabot-Briggs, L. (1958), _The Living Races of the Sahara Desert,
Massachussets) that this resemblance might indicate the origin of the Haratin.
Here are the figures given for the two groups from Paoli (p. 464):


Modern Northern Haratin and Dynastic Egyptian ----------------------------------------------------------------------
No. O A B AB p q r
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Egyptians 160 34 64 34 28 34.35 21.45 44.20 (Paoli)
Haratin 202 40 80 57 25 30.99 23.14 48.87 (Mourant)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Haratin are considered a mixture of the "aboriginal black population"
of North Africa and freed slaves mostly from the South. Of particular
interest in the chart above is the very high frequency of the q gene.
In most European population, the gene frequency is below 10% (See
Montagu, A. _Introduction to Physical Anthropology_ 1960, p. 334).

--------------------
Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began..

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan:

I would have to agree with this. AE is important, but it is only one model in the mix. Several others show on your map, including Ethiopia. Also as regards Egypt, the genesis of much of AE civ was in the Sahara- as shown by Wilkinson, eita, Wendorf, etc etc.. Your thread on the "black mummy" being discovered in the Sahara confirms this for it shows that a lot of the foundational thing people associate with AE derive from the Sahara and north and east Africa. It was these people that got the ball rolling, and kept it rolling. Even in religion we can see that influence, such as in the appearance of cattle...

Yes, my point in posting that map was to show that Egypt was just one of many models of civilization that developed independently in the African continent. Advanced indigenous cultures of Africa should not be limited to north or east Africa alone as they are also found in west Africa, and even central Africa in the heart of the Congo to southern Africa. And of course the Sahara was a hearth of neolithic culture and the roots of civilizations not only in the Nile Valley but also some in west Africa. The striking similarities in style and culture between Nile Valley cultures like Egypt and West African cultures like Wolof as shown by Diop can only be explained by common Saharan origins.

quote:
..As even one old ref says about Egyptian religion:

"A large number of gods go back to prehistoric times. The images of a cow and star goddess (Hathor), the falcon (Horus), and the human-shaped figures of the fertility god (Min) can be traced back to that period. Some rites, such as the "running of the Apil-bull," the "hoeing of the ground," and other fertility and hunting rites (e.g., the hippopotamus hunt) presumably date from early times.. Connections with the religions in southwest Asia cannot be traced with certainty."

"It is doubtful whether Osiris can be regarded as equal to Tammuz or Adonis, or whether Hathor is related to the "Great Mother." There are closer relations with northeast African religions. The numerous animal cults (especially bovine cults and panther gods) and details of ritual dresses (animal tails, masks, grass aprons, etc) probably are of African origin. The kinship in particular shows some African elements, such as the king as the head ritualist (i.e., medicine man), the limitations and renewal of the reign (jubilees, regicide), and the position of the king's mother (a matriarchal element). Some of them can be found among the Ethiopians in Napata and Meroe, others among the Prenilotic tribes (Shilluk)." (Encyclopedia Britannica 1974 ed. Macropedia Article, Vol 6: "Egyptian Religion" , pg 506-508)

Unsurprisingly, Western scholars in the past have tried in vain to connect the many religious rituals and other customs of the Egyptians to Southwest Asia while ignoring the African neighbors and kinsmen of the Egyptians. Ironically, the people in Africa whose ancient religion resembles Semtic peoples of Southwest Asia, especially in terms of deities, are the Semitic speakers of Ethiopia like the ancient Aksumites. Even then, linguistics and archaeology show that Semitic language and culture originated in Africa anyway and that it was introduced to Southwest Asia.

Of course, Western scholarship has come a long way and no longer denies the obvious FACT that Egyptian civilization as and indigenous African culture is closest related to other African cultures. The animal gods woshipped by the Egyptians and evidenced in early Saharan finds are found still found today among rural West Africans. The custom of divine kingship where the king or pharaoh was believed to be a god is widespread in Africa, and even the Sed Festival celebrated by the Egyptians at end of every seven year period of the pharaoh's reign as seen as a rejuvenation, can be explained by Nilotic beliefs of divine kings in cultures like the Shilluk where at the end of seven years the god-king is ritually slain or sacrificed like a bull. Unfortunately most laypeople are unaware of such facts or even that mainstream scholarship itself acknowledges all this.

quote:
While not in any way diminishing AE of the pyramids, maybe the question should be flipped around in reverse? That is, it is Africa that shaped AE and made it what it was. In other words, the Africa of the Sahara is the "original" model. That model would include the hustling, bustling agriculturalists and cattle herders, the creative artists of the Sahara who left behind their superb art on the rocks of the Sahara, the priests and medicine men of the Sahara, Nubia and the Sudan, etc etc.

Now things arent left there, for all these threads and strands combined and mingled over time to produce the dynastic civilization, including not only AE, but also Nubia, Meroe, Kush, etc Even if you look at that map you post, you can see that Ghana, Mali and some other of the great West African states draw from the Sahara. Whether you look east or West, the Sahara is there, not as desert but as the varied territory it has been throughout history.

Correct. Egypt is just one part of a larger Nile Valley complex the way that Sumer is one part of a Mespotamian complex, but some biased Western scholars hide this by comparing the nation-state of Egypt to the whole complex of Mesopotamia. And you are right about the Sahara being a vast area that is still highly communed by Africans, which is why the very notion of the Sahara being some sort of barrier to, or limiting African populations is absurd.

quote:
Eurocentric hisory has always shortchanged the Saharan roots, looking to the Mediterranean, Near East, 'Nordic' Europe, India, Islamic/Arab and even Cro-Magnons as the source of inspiration for any advanced developments in Africa. But could it not be said that the Sahara is the foundation?
As I've said, the Eurocents have tried but they failed miserably to rule out indigenous African impetus or development of Egypt itself.

quote:
PS: another interesting blurb shows up in that older reference. Under the article 'Egyptian law" it sez:

"Ancient Egyptian law was remarkable in terms of its lines of application, since it has as its primary objective, the promotion of basic human rights. There were, certainly, periods of regression, but these were balanced by others in which great forward strides were made..

"Yet Bocchoris freed the individual, suppressed imprisonment for debt, prohibited the interest of a debt from doubling the capital, and fixed the rules of written contracts; he also initiated certain reforms dealing with the mobility of private property. All these changes were eminently important, but correspond with the spirit of th Egyptian law in the high points of its history."

"Furthernmore, Egyptian law had a definite effect on Greek law during the Hellenistic period and later on Roman imperial law. Even before this time, Egyptian influence has been felt on Greek law, for in the early 6th century BC Solon, an early Athenian lawgiver, came to Egypt anbd was inspired by the legislative work of Bocchoris. The result was a decisive turn in Greek law, although the Greeks never emancipated women as had the Egyptians."


Now this passage appears in the conservative Encyclopedia Brittanica, 1974 ed, long before Afrocentrism as such became popular or Martin Bernal. (ref: Encyclopedia Britannica 1974 ed. Macropedia Article, Vol 6: "Egyptian Law" , pg 503)[qb]

Yes, African influence on Europe began since Neolithic times but continued well into the historical period. The funny thing is that many Eurocentrics readily accept this fact as long as they still view North Africans as "caucasian", but once that view is upset they then deny the influence on Europe. LOL

quote:
[qb]A lot of would be critics on the web charge that those who want a more balanced view of African history are pulling stuff out of the hat or making things up, but the new data you guys are putting out here on this forum again and again seems to confirm much older observations made by people who in the conditions of their times were very biased. Nevertheless the new data time and time again backs up what even these hostile observers noted a long time ago. The limb proportion studies by Zakrewski for example confirms observations almost a century old. The matches between the Kerma skeletal remains and those of Upper Egypt that Keita notes, goes way back to observations made in the 1920s. Keita notes this again and again when he goes back adn reads the original excavation reports, where the data on the ground can be examined, unfiltered by Aryan models and such..

Actually, the problem we have now is that many Eurocentric scholars seem to be going for a liberal 'poltically-correct' incorrect view that Egyptian society was "multi-racial" and that Egyptian civilization itself was the result of various peoples who are not entirely African or at least "not all black". This nonsense belief has begun to be propagated in the mainstream already.
quote:
Diop if I remember held that the Egyptians of today, while undergoing much influence via Arabs, modern migration, and the eras of greeks, Romans etc, basically and fundamentally remained connected to the ancient African stock. He pointed to the Copts as one example.
Actually 'Copt' describes a Christian denomination, particularly that of east Africa, and the first Christian Church outside of the Israelite community (Africans were the first gentiles to become Christian). As such, Copts of Egypt range in appearance the same way Muslims do. The actual ethnic group that best preserves the ancient (African) look are rural peasants or Fellahin of Egypt, and especially those of Upper Egypt in the south.

quote:
Found a blurb on a website that waved this quote supposedly debunking Diop.

Borgognini Tarli S.M., Paoli G. 1982. Survey on paleoserological studies. Homo, 33: 69-89

"The ABO blood type frequencies of ancient Egyptians showed no signs of differing significantly from that of present-day Egyptians. According to the authors, "the blood-group distribution obtained for Asiut, Gebelen and Aswan necropoles shows resemblances with the present leucoderm population of Egypt and particularly with its more 'conservative' fraction (the Copts, MOURANT et al., 1976)."

Seems to me that the only thing wrong with waving this blurb is that 'leucoderm' doesnt necessarily equal white. Since African genetic diversity is highest in the world, light skin is nothing new and is part of the built-in African genetic mix particularly in northeast Africa. And, the more conservative fraction spoken of above, the Copts, show high admixtures of Negroid bood, to use the terminology of the times in the older reference below, with the 'negroid' element blood being stronger in olden times than in modern Egypt (with its comparatively recent arab, euro and mid east mixes).

Actually, there are two things wrong with the study, besides the obvious debunked racial terminology. The first is that blood grouping is not as reliable in assessing genetic affinities as the actual gene studies we have available now. Second, is that while Africans do have the highest variability in skin complexion, leucodermia or fair-skin is not indigenous to Africa and its presence in African populations today is a result of foreign admixture; however the point is that such persons still carry African ancestry, and you cannot tell a person's genetic ancestry by looks alone. As a perfect example, there are whites even in Europe who can be pale with blonde hair and blue eyes and still have recent African ancestry.

quote:
quote:
"In Libya, which is mostly desert and oasis, there is a visible Negroid element in the sedentary populations, and the same is true of the Fellahin of Egypt, whether Copt or Muslim. Osteological studies have shown that the Negroid element was stronger in predynastic times than at present, reflecting an early movement northward along the banks of the Nile, which were then heavily forested." (Encyclopedia Britannica 1974 and 1982 eds. "Populations, Human")

So the more "conservative" Coptic element actually leans more African than European/Middle Eastern. Strangely, (or perhaps not [Smile] the blurb does not mention that the very same Paoli did earlier blood testing, and found that the dynastic Egyptians matched up better with the black Haratin of the Sahara, than they did with Europeans. The q element in particular appeared in very low frequencies in Euro populations compared to that of the Haratin and dynastic Egyptians. So maybe Diop isnt debunked at all. Seems like the opposite.

Of course you don't need anthropological studies to tell you there was a population change in Egypt. History itself of both Egyptians and the various peoples that invaded them say so. And again, 'Coptic' as a religious desgination is as useless as 'Muslim' as ethnic divisions in Egypt do not follow religious lines at all. But Diop is correct that peoples from rural areas whether Christian or Muslim best preserve their African features.

quote:
Paoli 1972 found a significant resemblance between ABO frequencies of dynastic Egyptians and the black northern Haratin who are held to be the descendants of the original Saharans (Hiernaux, 1975).

G. Paoli, in "ABO Typing of Ancient Egyptians" IN _Population biology
of ancient Egyptians_, edited by D.R. Brothwell and B.A. Chiarelli, London,
New York, 1973, showed that the Dynastic Egyptians were most closely matched
with the Haratin of the northern Sahara. Paoli mentions the theory of
Cabot-Briggs (Cabot-Briggs, L. (1958), _The Living Races of the Sahara Desert,
Massachussets) that this resemblance might indicate the origin of the Haratin.
Here are the figures given for the two groups from Paoli (p. 464):


Modern Northern Haratin and Dynastic Egyptian ----------------------------------------------------------------------
No. O A B AB p q r
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Egyptians 160 34 64 34 28 34.35 21.45 44.20 (Paoli)
Haratin 202 40 80 57 25 30.99 23.14 48.87 (Mourant)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Haratin are considered a mixture of the "aboriginal black population"
of North Africa and freed slaves mostly from the South. Of particular
interest in the chart above is the very high frequency of the q gene.
In most European population, the gene frequency is below 10% (See
Montagu, A. _Introduction to Physical Anthropology_ 1960, p. 334).

Yes all know about these studies which compare Haratin to Egyptians. Nothing new, both Egyptians and Haratin are indigenous black North African populations.
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congoman
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one of my eurocentrist professor even suggested that the great zimbabwe ruins are probably a work of indians and other people who traded with africans. this just shows how these eurocentrist will try to not give credit to africans.
it's stupid

--------------------
Emancipate your minds.

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lamin
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quote:
one of my eurocentrist professor even suggested that the great zimbabwe ruins are probably a work of indians and other people who traded with africans. this just shows how these eurocentrist will try to not give credit to africans.
it's stupid

Where and when? And how did you respond?
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ArtistFormerlyKnownAsHeru
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Notwithstanding the fact of Africa's diversity in
all things from the physical to the cultural and all,
of course ancient Egypt serves as Africa's paradigm
if that term can be applied outside of hard science
and not in the sense of copying or emulating rather
as a model or example of beliefs, values, and the like.
quote:

The history of Africa will remain suspended in air and cannot be written
correctly until African historians connect it with the history of Egypt.
...
The African historian who evades the problem of Egypt is neither modest
or objective, nor unruffled, he is ignorant, cowardly, and neurotic."

The vast majority of we who are African or of the
African diaspora recognize this as our working
premise. And it is we who apply Diop's quote and
we whom Diop's quote applies to.

The Egypt/Africa paradigm need not follow the pattern
of the Greece/Europe paradigm in that we do not need
to imitate European precedent for our methods to be
viable and applicable.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=002009#000003

Supreme.

It took some time to digest.

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by lamin:

quote:
one of my eurocentrist professor even suggested that the great zimbabwe ruins are probably a work of indians and other people who traded with africans. this just shows how these eurocentrist will try to not give credit to africans.
it's stupid

Where and when? And how did you respond?
If this professor is anything like 'Hore'/AmericanPatriot, why bother?! Even if you showed him evidence of the source the building materials and the bodies of the people who made it being African, he will still deny it all! LOL
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Djehuti
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...
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ArtistFormerlyKnownAsHeru
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quote:
Originally posted by congoman:
one of my eurocentrist professor even suggested that the great zimbabwe ruins are probably a work of indians and other people who traded with africans. this just shows how these eurocentrist will try to not give credit to africans.
it's stupid

You're right. It's stupid.
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