posted
I just had to laugh reading this article. Who are those people who actually do the stoning? Even if they believed they are doing the right thing, it goes against human nature.
What does a stoning actually look like? Is it done in the middle of the street where people have a chance to run on what?
Posts: 637 | Registered: Apr 2005
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I'm having some trouble following your discussion with Dalia. (My fault I'm sure).
But are you saying that in your opinion -- stoning a woman to death or cutting off someone's hand is a legitimate punishment for certain crimes as long as the punishment is meted out in accordance with Islam?
Thanks!
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Automatic For The People: I just had to laugh reading this article. Who are those people who actually do the stoning? Even if they believed they are doing the right thing, it goes against human nature.
What does a stoning actually look like? Is it done in the middle of the street where people have a chance to run on what?
They usually bury the woman up to the waist so she can't move. People surround her and throw stones until she is dead. Watch the movie *Osama.* It's horrific.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Humanistic laws are made by people, everyone can criticize them, suggest alternatives and improvements. Religious laws are cast is stone, no one can oppose them without suffering the consequences or even lose his or her life. Human society is changing constantly, the laws that were good a hundred years ago are no more applicable. Trying to impose the laws of a 7th century primitive society in the 21st century were the world has changed so much that every human being can communicate and interact with everyone else throughout the globe is anachronistic and anti progressive. No wonder Islamic countries are so backward. The very fact that Islam is based on unchangeable laws makes Islam obsolete and unpractical. Laws are made for the well being of humans not vice versa. The human society is alive evolving and progressing and so it laws must keep with the times. Religious laws are dead fossils. The fact that they cannot change renders them useless. Take the example of traffic by-law, one hundred years ago the traffic was the traffic of horses and carriages. Can we use the same traffic by-laws of a century ago in the metropolis of today?
Many Muslims contend that the local customs and culture has corrupted the ‘genuine’ Islam. Can we have a few examples where the local customs had made the ‘real’ Islam take a back seat? which culture/s of the world resorts to:
Stoning to _death_ for adultery.
Cutting off hand for theft.
_Beheading_ for apostasy.
Jizyah tax for the infidels.
Separate colour dress for infidels whenever they venture out.
It is ok to _marry a nine years old_ child girl.
Not to pray in funeral for an infidel.
Belief that Paradise lies under the shades of Islamic sword.
You can have _unlimited sex_ with captives and slave girls.
Slay the idolaters wherever you may find them.
One must not be friendly with Jews and Christians.
Kill all Jews whenever you can lay your hands on them.
The only acceptable religion to Allah is Islam.
Islamic wife beating is okay.
Women must be covered with hijab/burqa whenever they venture out.
If a non-Muslim man loves/have sex with a Muslim woman, he should be immediately executed without exception.
The blood money for a non-Muslim is much lower than the blood money for a Muslim.
Women must stay-put at home; she cannot go out without her husband’s permission.
Allah gets angry if a woman refuses to have sex with her husband.
I can go on illustrating many other mindless/senseless provisions in Islam that are in no way part of any culture of any society apart from the Islamic countries. So, if any Muslim society has become the most despicable society on earth, it is not because of their culture for no culture on earth practices those cruel, appalling and dreadful provisions except Islam. Therefore, the indigenous culture of Muslim societies is not to blame for the ill of that society. Islam principally brought this grave illness to these societies. Now these societies have fallen into permanent trap of poverty, illiteracy, communal violence, social unrest and lawlessness. Many of these societies were much more civilised before Islam encroached and interfered with their living.
Posts: 392 | Registered: Nov 2005
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I'm having some trouble following your discussion with Dalia. (My fault I'm sure).
But are you saying that in your opinion -- stoning a woman to death or cutting off someone's hand is a legitimate punishment for certain crimes as long as the punishment is meted out in accordance with Islam?
Thanks!
yes it is and this is not my opnion "cutting off someone's hand is writing in the Quran" "the male thief or the female thief, cut there hands and don't let compation comes to you" actually they cut the hand they use less( typically left hand). Stoning is as well a god's judgement for whom commit adultry while married. The video is just a way that Dalia has linked so people got compation to her opnion and this is the way she want to prove her idea upon compation not reason, even if it looks brutle but stoning should never happen except according to what I have said before "rules", and if you know that this will happen to you you would consider it a million time before commiting robery or an adultry crime .. I am sure I wouldn't like to be a witness such a judgement but it is the truth .. so it is Anyhow if you considered how people die with car accidents you will find it even more brutle death in some accidents, there are people that die burnt with no one fault, you don't imagine how things can go .. it is god's will and god will compansate those whom die this way, if you believe in him you will know that this is one thing for sure.
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: Stoning is as well a god's judgement for whom commit adultry while married.
Thank you for answering honestly.
quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: even if it looks brutle but stoning should never happen except according to what I have said before "rules", and if you know that this will happen to you you would consider it a million time before commiting robery or an adultry crime .. .
God's judgment is perfect, but in this case *humans* are issuing the punishment. God never makes mistakes, but people almost always do.
quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: Anyhow if you considered how people die with car accidents you will find it even more brutle death in some accidents, there are people that die burnt with no one fault, you don't imagine how things can go
Yes, there are more brutal deaths than stoning. But stoning or cutting off a person's hand sickens me more, because these are acts committed by other humans, and not mere incidents of fate. Again, humans make mistakes. What if the community found out after horrifically stoning a woman to death that she never actually committed adultery?
quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: .. it is god's will and god will compansate those whom die this way, if you believe in him you will know that this is one thing for sure.
Oh, in my opinion God will certainly be compassionate to the poor woman who was stoned. But how will He view the people who killed her? How will he view the people who killer her if they were wrong in their judgment?
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: Again, humans make mistakes. What if the community found out after horrifically stoning a woman to death that she never actually committed adultery?
hi snoozin
you mean if the guilty confesses hi/her guilt ; s/he desrves the punishment!!
Posts: 817 | From: Egypt | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: yes it is and this is not my opnion "cutting off someone's hand is writing in the Quran" "the male thief or the female thief, cut there hands and don't let compation comes to you" actually they cut the hand they use less( typically left hand). Stoning is as well a god's judgement for whom commit adultry while married.
If this is the God, then perhaps it is time that we, the mortal humans, send a messenger to him teaching him some of our humanistic values. We could teach him a lesson of Justice, a word of compassion, tell him about helping those that are in need. if really God is displeased from anyone can't he punish him? Does he need one of his creatures tell him what to do? Doesn't this demonstrate Muhammad's arrogance? If there is an injustice done, shouldn't God be the judge? If God made us with the capacity to distinguish between good and evil , to the extent that we, the humans, universally agree that killing and inflicting pain is evil, why should he not live and act by the same standards? If what he wants us to believe as good, is diametrically different to what he does, how are we supposed to know he is good? Isn't it absurd that he makes us feel sympathy; compassion and love for our fellow human beings, telling us that these are good then he would do exactly the opposite?
quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: even if it looks brutle but stoning should never happen except according to what I have said before "rules", and if you know that this will happen to you you would consider it a million time before commiting robery or an adultry crime ..
The human hand is not a human masterpiece but a Divine masterpiece. It is more precious, and far greater than any human achievement. Will the Creator of the hand give orders for His masterpiece, to be cut off and destroyed to penalise a person for theft of property? If we use the analogy of the human masterpieces it is safe to say that damaging part of the body to compensate for the loss of some property is like damaging the masterpiece to compensate for the loss of some paint. No amount of paint and canvas will compensate for one of Picasso's masterpieces. There is more than paint and canvas in a masterpiece. Could it be that the hand-cutting law originated from someone who was not the hand's creator? Would the God who knows the worth of His creation order the destruction of one of His most important masterpieces -the hand- for the sake of property damage?
Also by cutting a thief’s hand he is left with no other means to earn his bread except begging, which would be difficult since he is defamed as a thief and so hated by people. Therefore re-offending becomes his only means of livelihood.
Forgiving someone was unacceptable for Muhammad. Muhammad's God is called the Forgiving, the Merciful, and the All- Compassionate, but not once did he exercise his power to have compassion over one who was caught stealing or one who was caught committing adultery, as Christ did many times.
Allah is called the creator, the forgiving, the merciful, the just, and the All-Knowing, but he is not.
The most dangerous aspect of religion is the belief that if you think God wants you to do something, then it is for a greater moral good to go ahead and do it. Madmen, political leaders and militants have all justified their own violent actions under the belief that if they think God wants it, then they can therefore do it regardless of the cost to society. The Dark Ages, Europe's darkest centuries, were ravaged in ignorance and blood under this type of rule. It is dangerous to assume that we know what God wants or that God's whims are moral.
you mean if the guilty confesses hi/her guilt ; s/he desrves the punishment!!
Not necessarily so. Many people *confess* under duress. They lie for various reasons.
But in my opinion, I cannot imagine when stoning someone to death would ever be warranted. Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
I cant imagine anyone brazen enough to get caught by 4 whole other people masturbating?!! Unless thats their particular bent-what are they called? Exhibists?
Posts: 872 | From: Sydney | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: But stoning or cutting off a person's hand sickens me more, because these are acts committed by other humans, and not mere incidents of fate. Again, humans make mistakes.
I completely agree with that.
How anyone can actually defend an atrocity like stoning is completely beyond me; I'm actually quite disgusted to see that some people obviously have neither mercy nor compassion
Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
..For those doing the stoning, it is a social event that becomes more of a religious sport than a true act of moral self-righteousness. http://www.iran-e-azad.org/stoning/. The footage taken in Iran illustrates a party like atmosphere of those carrying out the execution. It is reminiscent of the family picnics at the old Wild West hangings or the popularity of people watching the slaughter of gladiators in early Rome.
Like other diabolical methods of torture, stoning has gone out of style as society realized that having others participate in the punishment of another, even a criminal, devalues life. Stoning also creates fear and terrorizes the minds of others. The Guillotine, whipping, pouring acid on someone or gouging their eyes out with iron have all been gleefully practiced over the ages by zealots. Regardless of the how brutal, none of these punishments have stood the test of time. Even those founded in the name of religion have died out because they are cruel and inhumane.
“Like humans void of soul or mind, they jeered and yelled as they went about selecting their most jagged stones.” – David Hearne, excerpt from Hulagu's Web. The Brutal Truth about the Practice of Stoning
As we realize the impact of such a brutal death, we realize that we have no right to take part in killing another when we too have sinned. This imparting of sin on all those who partake in it is the very reason most cultures have abandoned the practice.
Posts: 392 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: But stoning or cutting off a person's hand sickens me more, because these are acts committed by other humans, and not mere incidents of fate. Again, humans make mistakes.
I completely agree with that.
How anyone can actually defend an atrocity like stoning is completely beyond me; I'm actually quite disgusted to see that some people obviously have neither mercy nor compassion
Dalia, Don't you think that I have no compassion well I have compassion and I wouldn't go for the stoning except if there is no one else but me to do it, yet When stoning should happen "merely stoning for now is made upon someone's choice" don't forget the rules agian and again, it is like I want you to stone me .. However, you can do adultry without any punishment simply it is very hard to be witnessed that makes it your own choice as some kind of repention .. Do you think that god have no merci well he is not, you are very delluded, this reminds me with Moses story when he thought that he is the most wise upon all god's creations .. you know the story. Go read and understand .. it is god that he is most wise most mercifull, it is god whom choose. do you think that in hell people will suffer less than stoning .. if you believe in god heaven and hell you would understand me .. you know the meaning of endless pain can you imagine it, burning forever .. you can't and it is far more than stoning (God have merci God have merci, the merci in you and me is from god but his merci comes with wisedom), you don't recognize it then it is your problem .. This life is just a big exam .. it is the biggest exam. I believe that stonning can be a small payment that someone might choose as a replacement for endless suffer or even an 1hr in hell .. kafir, you wanna learn god then please just push away any desease from you, you know you might get a cancer (just for no reason) and no one could help you, you know what even with no pain people just suffer living "this life is where people suffer", god had made it so, so that people know that it doesn't deserve it, it doesn't deserve robery, killing, traitory .. it simply doesn't worth it, you will go out of it, it is you that not notice the god's wisedom, you know what if he wasn't compassion then he would have just put you and put into hell, time doesn't govern god your doom and mine is at his knowledge, yet you should know that as well as you still alive then you might excuse "repention". It is you that don't wanna open his eyes .. don't you see it, I can't make you see, god said "Can you Guide those whom are blind away from the wrong way" .. I hope that you may find any wise in my words, for example why do people die from cancer, burning (have you ever seen before a burnt man dieing "you won't imagine it believe me") .. why does people suffer living, even if your life is perfect you just may suffer loneliness, traitory, broken hearts, losing someone you love .. why do people suicide .. This is god's way to learn us you don't see it then it is only time that will show you the truth agian one day I will meet you and I will remind you "ISA" with those words, I only hope that at this day you might be from those whom will survive, and may god be my witness
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: Do you think that god have no merci well he is not, you are very delluded,
Quite the opposite, I think God has a lot of mercy but humans often don't.
quote:if you believe in god heaven and hell you would understand me .. you know the meaning of endless pain can you imagine it, burning forever .. you can't and it is far more than stoning
I think my concept of heaven and hell is a bit different from yours, I see them as metaphors rather than taking them literally.
Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: Do you think that god have no merci well he is not, you are very delluded,
Quite the opposite, I think God has a lot of mercy but humans often don't.
quote:if you believe in god heaven and hell you would understand me .. you know the meaning of endless pain can you imagine it, burning forever .. you can't and it is far more than stoning
I think my concept of heaven and hell is a bit different from yours, I see them as metaphors rather than taking them literally.
Based on what ? .. Please don't say Quran or sunnah, God said "[75.36] Does man think that he is to be left to wander without an aim?"
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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