posted
Until recently, the majority of the world's over one billion Muslims had scarcely heard of female genital cutting (also known as female circumcision and female genital mutilation (FGM)). When the subject began to receive international media attention, many Muslims responded with disgust, easily dismissing any possible connection between this practice and the religion of Islam.
Enhanced awareness of the cultural significance of FGM in some Muslim countries requires a more detailed look at the relationship of FGM to Islam. In July, 1997 the Egyptian government overturned a ban on the practice of FGM. This event was celebrated by some Muslim figures, particularly Sheikh Youssef al-Badri, an outspoken proponent of the circumcision of Muslim women. Later the ban was reinstated, an act celebrated now by feminists and under assault by a few Muslim activists, again, led by Sheikh al-Badri. For the general public, with only limited exposure to Muslims and Islam, the natural conclusion would be that the practice of FGM must somehow be part of the faith, since those who seem to be the most religious are the most ardent supporters. Unfortunately , this simply represents how the sexuality of women is used, under whatever philosophy or world-view, to perpetuate their subjugation.
Female genital cutting is practiced by Muslims and non-Muslims alike residing mainly in Sub-Saharan Africa in countries that include but are not limited to Egypt, Sudan, Somalia, Ethiopia, Kenya and Chad. A more minor form of the procedure is also performed in some parts of the Middle East and South Asia. Degrees of mutilation exist ranging from excision of the hood of the clitoris or clitoris itself to complete infibulation which involves removal of the clitoris, labia minora and labia majora, leaving a small opening for the passage of urine and menstrual blood. As expected, normal sexual intercourse is not possible without a corrective procedure and childbirth frequently involves severe trauma that can result in life-threatening hemorrhage. Other complications include chronic urinary tract and other infections, infertility, psychological trauma, sexual dysfunction, menstrual problems and several other negative medical and emotional outcomes. The procedure is performed on girls between the ages of infancy and pre-adolescence and is either carried out by a physician, midwife or designated woman from the community. Lack of sterile technique, use of the same instruments on more than one child, and lack of anesthesia all contribute to the complication rate which can even include infection with HIV. Medicalizing FGM by performing it in hospitals with appropriate surgical technique will not eliminate all of the complications associated with this practice and therefore cannot legitimately be considered as a solution that reduces the health risks. Current estimates by the World Health Organization state that over 100 million women and girls have been affected by some form of genital cutting.
This practice dates to the time of the pharoahs in Egypt and is perpetuated in a given community for a variety of reasons. When the majority of women have been circumcised, those who are not are considered abnormal by themselves or their families. This has tremendous significance in terms of the desirability of a young woman for marriage which provides a major means for achieving economic strength and independence; thus, being unsuitable for marriage further worsens a woman's ability to prosper. In addition, circumcision is believed to ensure cleanliness, chastity and to minimize the sexual appetite of women and thus reduce the likelihood that they will bring shame on themselves or their families through sexual indiscretions. The guarantee of a young woman's purity further enhances her attractiveness to potential suitors. Religious leaders in many of the communities that practice FGM also support the custom, linking the moral benefits listed above to religion; therefore, a devoted believer who wants to carry out religious duties to her or his utmost is convinced that FGM is associated with righteousness and purity, both valued by all religions, including Islam.
The circumcision of girls, in any form, predated Islam by many centuries. It was practiced in some parts of Arabia at the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and was evidently a custom of the time that may have been a practice of some but not all of the local tribes. As a pre-established tradition, therefore, female circumcision was not introduced by the Prophet to the early Muslim community. Several sayings (hadith) of the Prophet indicate that it may have been the norm for women to be circumcised (see al-Muwatta of Imam Malik) but the extent of circumcision, excision or mutilation is not specified. In addition, the existence of female circumcision in the community does not necessarily mean that it was to be recommended or made obligatory. Indeed, it is possible to argue that any form of female genital cutting actually violates very basic precepts in Islam.
The Qur'an, as a text providing mainly general guidelines (with some injunctions or laws spelled out specifically) does not address the issue of circumcision of either males or females. The Qur'an does however refer to the sexual relationship in marriage as one of mutual satisfaction that is considered a mercy from Allah (swt):
It is lawful for you to go in unto your wives during the night preceding the (day's) fast: they are as a garment for you and you are as a garment for them (2:187)...and He has put love and mercy between you (30:21)
Several sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) highlight the importance of giving and deriving pleasure from intimacy between a husband and wife. This is clear from sayings that informed the community regarding the types of sexual behavior that were considered lawful and from others that addressed the sexual needs of men and women. Clearly, any act that interferes with a fulfilling sexual relationship contradicts the essence of Islam based both on Qur'an and hadith.
In addition, the argument for ensuring chastity with a physically debilitating procedure blatantly violates the premise of individual accountability exemplified in the Qur'an (17:15, see below). Sadly, the notion that honor and shame fall so heavily on the shoulders of the women of any given family is pervasive throughout the Muslim world, including those countries where FGM is not known. As a result of patriarchal influences, a woman's sexuality is something that does not belong to her, but rather is ultimately controlled by the dominant male of her family (father, elder brother, husband, etc.) Yet, again, the Qur'an explicitly tells Muslims that no one can bear the burden of another with respect to sin, dishonor, or shame:
Whoever chooses to follow the right path, follows it but for his own good; and whoever goes astray, goes but astray to his own hurt; and no bearer of burdens shall be made to bear another's burden (17:15)...and if one weighed down by his load calls upon (another) to help him carry it, nothing thereof may be carried (by that other), even if it be one's near of kin (35:18)
Those who advocate for FGM from an Islamic perspective commonly quote the following hadith to argue that it is required as part of the Sunnah or Tradition of the Prophet:
Um Atiyyat al-Ansariyyah said: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (pbuh) said to her: Do not cut too severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.
This is known to be a "weak" hadith in that it does not meet the strict criteria to be considered unquestionable (classified as mursal, i.e. missing a link in the chain of transmitters in that none was among the original Companions of the Prophet.) In addtion, it is found in only one of the six undisputed, authentic hadith collections, that is in the Sunan of Abu Dawud (Chapter 1888). According to Sayyid Sabiq, renowned scholar and author of Fiqh-us-Sunnah, all hadiths concerning female circumcision are non-authentic.
Even if the words attributed to the Prophet were actually spoken by him, an analysis of the text itself reveals that he is making a statement that does not translate into an injunction for circumcision. Interestingly, many leading scholars of the four major Sunni schools of thought considered female circumcision to be at least recommended if not required. Yet we cannot ascertain from the hadith what type of circumcision was being performed or even which body part was being discussed. The scholars later specified in general terms that only a small piece of skin (the clitoris or its hood, presumably, or perhaps part of the labia minora) the size of a "cock's comb" (the small appendage that sits atop the head of a rooster) was to be removed. At the very least then, one can say that infibulation goes far beyond the description given here and so this hadith cannot be used to justify the more severe forms of mutilation. If a Muslim truly believes that female circumcision is part of the Sunnah, she or he wouldn't have enough detailed specifications to know how to carry out the procedure since the terms as mentioned above are so vague.
Despite the opinion of the scholars, female circumcision never became widespread among Muslims around the world and is essentially non-existent among the native inhabitants of Saudi Arabia and many other Muslim countries today. In contrast, male circumcision is universally practiced among Muslims; this is considered the continuation of a practice enjoined upon Abraham and his followers and is explicitly mentioned in several well-known sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
Some proponents of female circumcision argue that removing the clitoral hood (the anatomical equivalent of the foreskin of the penis) can enhance a woman's sexual experience which would not violate her rights to sexual fulfillment. Yet, it is practically impossible when examining the genitals of a young girl (and especially an infant), to distinguish between the hood and the clitoris itself. Also an exposed clitoris that is stimulated due to friction from clothing would result in discomfort and pain and would not necessarily enhance a woman's ability to achieve sexual fulfillment through orgasm.
Islam is a religion that guarantees the integrity of the human being- both in body and in spirit. Female genital cutting violates that integrity, insulting Allah the Creator Whose creation needs no improvement:
Such is He who knows all that is beyond the reach of a created being's perception as well as all that can be witnessed by a creature's senses or mind: the Almighty Dispenser of Grace, Who makes excellent everything He creates (32:6-7)
It is Allah Who has made for you the earth as a resting place and the sky as a canopy, and has given you shape- and made your shapes beautiful - (40:64)
Our Sustainer! Thou hast not created (any of) this in vain (3:191)
And spend in Allah's cause and let not your own hands contribute to your own destruction and persevere in doing good: behold, Allah loves the doers of good (2:195)
Muslims are called upon by Allah (swt) to enjoin the doing of what is right and forbid the doing of what is wrong. Clearly, mutilating a woman's genitalia in the name of Islam violates the most sacred tenets of our faith. Therefore, we must oppose this practice and join efforts with others who are working to educate women and men about its harmful effects. We applaud the work of Muslim leaders who challenge the view that female circumcision is required in Islam. These views have been expressed by Dr. Hassan Hathout, renowned Muslim gynecologist and scholar, and by Mohammed Sayyed Tantawi of Al-Azhar and Sheikh Abdel Ghaffer Mansour. Like many others, they urge the discontinuation of this harmful cultural tradition due to the numerous devastating consequences that result.
The Muslim Women's League strongly supports the work done by organizations and individuals who are from the countries and communities most affected by FGM. To find out more about ongoing efforts, we encourage those interested to begin by visiting the following website on the Internet: FGM Network and Message Board: http://www.fgm.org
any one personaly had exsperience of this being married into a islamic family or frm a certain culture that is not of islamic that has practised this ,if u have dont want public to see this then pm please it will being the strictnes confidence ,i my self had a cousin go through this and this was in india ,grateful some feed back /w/s chimps ..
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Female Genital Mutilation in Iraqi Kurdistan
27/03/2006 Wadi e. V. Presentation to the conference: 1ère Journée Humanitaire sur la Santé des Femmes dans le Monde organized by Gynécologie sans Frontières, Paris May 8th 2006
By: Sandra Strobel and Thomas v. der Osten-Sacken, Wadi e. V.
Dear Ladies and Sirs,
First of all, we want to thank you for this invitation giving us the possibility of speaking with you about a widely unknown topic: the existence of Female Genital Mutilation in Iraqi-Kurdistan.
Our NGO is working in Northern Iraq since 1993.
The Kurds have lived decades of war, forced resettlements, mass-murder and Diaspora.
Iraqi-Kurds have experienced decades of political decay, wars, sanctions and economic recession. Iraq, a country rich in natural resources, was systematically destroyed and impoverished. The Ba’ath dictatorship during its three decades of ruling moulded and totally changed Iraq’s society. Consequently only 53% of Kurds has frequented school- this means that they have frequented primary school for about 5 years in the best of all cases- . 34% of Iraqi Kurds are illiterate.
These figures are even higher for women.
Women were one of the first victims of this policy. Due to several reasons they suffered most under political oppression, wars, economic decay.
Additionally they are victims of male violence. Often they are not allowed to freely choose their husband, to travel alone, to work. Sexual harassment and abuse inside families are not openly discussed. Many women suffer under psychological problems up to severe traumata. Abused women are regularly regarded not as victims but as guilty and shameful; women in distress are often classified as mad. Kurdish society is a very patriarchal kind of society. Girls are part of the family’s honour. This is only one of the reasons why Kurdish women and girls are subjected to a strict rule. Many women have never consulted a doctor. Forced marriage, violence of all kinds, honour killing and suicide are quite usual in this region.
Wadi supports various projects for empowerment of women in Northern Iraq.
Iraqi Kurdistan is a quite rural area where a big number of women can’t benefit of medical assistance. This is why we have created female lead mobile teams to mention just one of our various projects - that consist in one female doctor, a nurse and a social worker. These mobile teams visit even very isolated villages and offer medical services to the women. After one year and a half these teams had conquered the faith of the villagers who started to talk about FGM with the team. This is when the team made a horrible discovery: a big part of the women had been mutilated. They questioned about 1544 women and young girls. 907 of theses women and young girls are victims of FGM.
This is why Wadi decided to start a special program against FGM.
FGM is a taboo in Kurdistan. In former times, people never talked about this subject. This painful mutilation is usually done to young girls aged between 4 and 12 years. It is a secret act about which people never talk. There is neither present neither party. Women want to get rid of the ‘haram’ (dirty) organs of the girl the most quickly and secretly as possible.
The fact that its own mother is handing out the girl to the woman that excises the girl is very traumatizing for the girl. Normally a female member of the family, a neighbour or a traditional woman is cutting the girl. Sometimes it is even the proper mother that is cutting the girl.
The operation is done without any kind of anesthetization. As the women committing this act have no medical knowledge, there is no sterility of the instruments used. She cuts the clitoris and sometimes parts of the labia, using a razor or a knife. Then, she covers the bleeding wound with ashes. The girl is sometimes forced to sit onto a bucket filled with icy water. Many girls die or suffer during their whole life of the psychological and medical consequences of FGM. Many of them can never forget this shock situation.
We won?t talk about the medical and psychological consequences of FGM now, because you are doctors and you are very well informed, but we want to insist on the fact that many girls in Iraqi Kurdistan die of bleeding after being mutiliated.
Why do women practise FGM in Iraqi Kurdistan?
Most women justify this act by tradition and religion.
Others confess that they believed that Islam obliges women to practise FGM.
Some women say that they practise FGM because « it has always been like that ». They think that they do something good for the young girls. The clitoris is considered to be a ‘haram’ (dirty) and ugly organ. Lots of women are frightened that they cannot marry find husbands for their girls if they haven’t been cut.
Islam doesn’t transmit us a clear message about FGM. There is a variety of possible interpretations. This is why some Islamic schools say that women are not obliged to practise FGM: But lots of Islamic schools still teach that FGM is an obligation for every Muslim woman. The fact that many rural mullahs in Iraqi Kurdistan tell the Muslim women to practise FGM is one big problem.
But first let us discuss, why suddenly people start to speak out about FGM. Why nobody before was informed about this practise in Iraqi Kurdistan? And is Iraqi Kurdistan an exception within the Middle East? Isn't FGM practised in other Middle Eastern Countries?
To find answers, we should have a closer look on the close connection between freedom and civil liberties in the Middle Eastern countries and the possibility to struggle against FGM and against other kinds of violence against women.
FGM and Freedom
If we look at studies and documentations that have been done about FGM over the last decade, we’d be surprised that none is mentioning the problem of FGM in the so called Masreq Countries, the Arab region east of the Suez channel. Let us pick an example. In spring 2004, the Austrian Foundation for World Population and International Cooperation published a report that gave an overview of countries in this world, where FGM is common. No country of the Mashreq is mentioned - except Yemen ‘ and many people see this country as a kind of bridge between Africa and the Middle East. Moreover, some scholars have asserted that this practice does not exist at all throughout this region. This information was simply wrong. FGM is not limited to the African part of the Arab and Muslim world. It is not an ‘African practice’. True, Egypt, where approximately 90% of all women are mutilated, is an African country; but it is an Arab and Muslim country, too.
The reason why they have been aware of FGM in Egypt and not elsewhere is not that Egypt is in Africa and only there FGM is practiced. The reason that this form of violence against women has been hidden so well is, we believe, a rather different one. Although Egypt cannot be called a democracy it is less autocratic than most of its neighbours. A variety of Civil Society Organizations, Women’s and Human right groups can work there. In dictatorships like Syria or in Saddam’s Iraq even such freedom does not exist. Even worse, these dictatorships sometimes legalized such violence in different forms. In Iraq, for example, so called Honour Killings were legalized in the late 80s.
Things simply looked different in the Kurdish regions of Iraq that were able to free themselves from Saddam´s rule in 1991. Although freedoms were still very limited under the government of the Kurdish parties, slowly some space was created during the 1990a for an embryonic civil society.
If in 1992 a Kurdish official had been asked about forced marriages, honour killings and other forms of violence against women in the Kurdish controlled areas of Northern Iraq, he’d probably denied their existence. However, women’s organizations and other CSO’s started to make facts public. They collected data, opened Women Shelters and lobbied the parliament. And in 2000 honour killings were banned in Kurdistan. Throughout the region a variety of studies were done on honour killings, resulted in shocking findings. This is not because the Kurds are more backward or uncivilized than anyone else in the Middle East (as some Arab nationalist propagate). It is because the Kurds in Iraq have had the freedom to investigate and make the fact known, and even to confront certain taboos. Everything related to sexual discrimination or sexuality still is a huge taboo in almost all Middle Eastern countries.
Programs to combat FGM
It is possible to combat this violence against women. The story of the courageous initiative of local members of various women’s organizations and the local staff of Wadi in Iraqi Kurdistan, who have found out that FGM is practiced and decided to struggle against it, is a hopeful story. In less than two years from their first findings about the practice, they have made this unspoken of taboo, to a public and politically recognized problem- just very recently the first conference on this issue took place in Arbil, the Kurdish capital. This is also a story about how certain freedoms are so closely connected to all the activities to combat violence against women. We?d like to tell you this story briefly: what has been achieved and how, as well as how much more there is to do.
When our teams discovered FGM in Iraqi Kurdistan, every one of us was shocked and paralysed. What can we do against this widespread practise in Iraqi Kurdistan? How can we save the physical and psychological integrity of thousands of young girls?
After they presented these shocking results (and even professionals inside Suleymaniah thought back then this was exaggerated) we started to discuss measures to raise awareness to FGM and at the same time to put some pressure on regional authorities to recognize this problem. The majority of villagers in Germian area is illiterate and has no access to TV or radio. The Germian Regional Program members suggested to produce a locally made educational film and to interview mullahs as well as doctors to show that neither Quran subscribe to Mutilation nor any medical benefit results from this practice.
Luckily a local team of filmmakers was ready to produce such a film and working closely together with the Mobile Teams in Germian they finished a 30 minutes educational film in summer 2005. This film was made possible with the help of a Spanish co-operation partner.
In the meanwhile a Kurdistan-wide research was prepared in c-operation with the Universities of Baghdad, Suleymaniah and Arbil. Unfortunately until now no donors? organisation was found to support this research. The basic idea is to questions about 5% of the female population of Iraqi-Kurdistan in order to get a comprehensive overview about where and how FGM is practiced.
The activists in Kurdistan found important support from a British Journalist who started to extensively write about FGM and spread this news especially in the English speaking media. This helped them a lot and gave them support against various attempts to silence them.
In October 2005 a first Team started to show the film in 20 selected villages in Germian. The success was striking: a lot of women explained they didn?t know before this practise was not obliged by Islam. Especially the Interview with a high rank Mullah shown in this film convinced a lot of women, although some still claim this practice is necessary and right.
With support from the Swiss Caritas this team is now working in Germian region on a regular base.
And in co-operation with the Iraqi Civil Society Program our branch in Arbil started similar activities with this film and did another small research in Arbil-area. Here the rate of mutilated women was even higher.
On Saturday 26th 2006 we held a conference in Arbil that was supported by the same local authorities who before claimed no FGM exists in the region. 90 women participated as well as all the local media. They elected a committee of five doctors and professors, who will propose a new legislation to the Kurdish Parliament in order to ban FGM by law and start a awareness campaign in schools, hospitals and the media.
Thus only after 14 month of activities with a very limited budget and against wide-spread resistance these local activists succeeded: Now officially FGM is recognized as a problem in Iraqi-Kurdistan. This is a first, but very important step, not only for Iraqi-Kurdistan itself, but the whole region.
Just recently a member of a semi-legal Women organization in Syria told us, they do have FGM to, but until now no chance to address it.
With these activities in Iraqi Kurdistan, that were conducted by a courageous group of Kurds ‘both men and women’ it is now known and proofed that FGM is not solely an African problem.
Empowerment of women and the combat against Violence against Women should be at the core of any transformation of dictatorial societies into democracies. Only then an opportunity is opening to help local activists to stand up for such universal values as equality.
It’s up to us to support and consult all those, who are in the middle of this struggle.
They do have a lot of enemies and unluckily only few friends in Europe. We hope after listening to this story they found more here today.
Thank you very much
This paper is the English version of a presentation in French.
posted
I am glad I never encountered this in my large group of friends with arab partners. I do hope our mixed marriage can prevent it. I have always been scared to death going to Egypt. I asked the family doctor, since my family could just not touch the topic with me, and he would just tell me that it is prohibited to medical staff to perform this. Some assurance. I never let my girl out of my eyes when in Egypt.
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hey! what's going on here?? are Egyptian people take girls to make circumcision??
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote: The procedure is performed on girls between the ages of infancy and pre-adolescence and is either carried out by a physician, midwife or designated woman from the community. Lack of sterile technique, use of the same instruments on more than one child, and lack of anesthesia all contribute to the complication rate which can even include infection with HIV.
do they kidnap girls and do that? or what?
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I personally believe it depends on exactly what type of procedure they perform on the girl.
To me, FGM in practice is or was originally no different from MGM (male genital mutilation) that we all know as circumcision.
As long as it's just a 'snip' so to speak, there should be no problems. Unfortunately, as r.i.p.R has pointed out, some of these customs do more than that and the procedures go too far! Complete infibulation (removal of all outer parts) is a severe injury to the human body that leads to serious physical and of course psychological trauma and the long term effects could indeed be devastating-- labor complications, tract infections, sterility.
I understand that some of these cultures believe infibulation prevents sexual promiscuity and ensures a girl's chastity, but it also ensures alot of other aweful and unnecessary things. And overall, I think it's disgusting!
If these cultures want their girls to be chaste all they have to do is teach abstinance, better than making all their females suffer for the rest of their lives!
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
teaching abstinance may be not enough to reach chastity.. If they cut a very very small peace of clitoris, may this help?
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
Lets have another round here. 'It is something from the lower classes, it is outdated, they just give these figures to make Egypt look bad'.
I have seen figures ranging from 70-over 90% for Egypt. This 2003 survey has a high 97% figure for females in the reproductive age.
It is banned in Egypt. I did see the banners with the statement that this is a custom from before the great religions and not in Islam or christianity, medical staff is prohibited to perform it, and yet it seems to go on.
posted
To oppress them, rather. To avoid them access pleasure when they are married. Like in some African parts, preteenagers'moms press very strongly their girl's breast to avoid them having big boobs which could attract men... That's really sad.
Posts: 18 | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged |
Lets have another round here. 'It is something from the lower classes, it is outdated, they just give these figures to make Egypt look bad'.
I have seen figures ranging from 70-over 90% for Egypt. This 2003 survey has a high 97% figure for females in the reproductive age.
It is banned in Egypt. I did see the banners with the statement that this is a custom from before the great religions and not in Islam or christianity, medical staff is prohibited to perform it, and yet it seems to go on.
Scary
the girl in that link is smiling she may that operation!
I think If there is a need for it such as large clitoris that causes exaggerated arousal, this is a benefit not a bad habbit
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Soghantouta: To oppress them, rather. To avoid them access pleasure when they are married. Like in some African parts, preteenagers'moms press very strongly their girl's breast to avoid them having big boobs which could attract men... That's really sad.
does that really affect breast size?
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
hey come on ok ur getting out of all proportion now u sound like a bunch of P'SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.,I SAY NO ONE HAS ANY RITE TO TAKE OR ALTER A WOMAN OR A GIRL WITH OUT HER CONCENT BUT IF UNDER AGE SHE SHUD NOT AND I SAY SHE NOT BE TOUCHED HERE IF ITS HAPPENING U WUD BE CALLED A ''PDFLE''IF U TOUCH A CHILD OR UR SEXUALLY ABUSING ,IT HAS TO STOP ...
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
why on earth would you want a woman's sexual desire decreased? we don't want it enough as it is! I would think men would want to enlarge it if anything. All it will lead to is more "headaches" from the woman when it's time to get to bed.
Posts: 1808 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: I think If there is a need for it such as large clitoris that causes exaggerated arousal, this is a benefit not a bad habbit
As men tend to be the ones who get most aroused and cause the most problems due to their sexual arousal, how would you suggest we control their exaggerated arousal? Should this be the recommended method of treatment for all exaggerated sexual arousal, removal of a large sexual organ?
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by charm el feikh?: [QUOTE]Originally posted by islamsweden.org:
So... If women want it? Is it ok??
woman yes. child no. [/QUOTE dont beleive it any way not good very sick to do this practice ...beit woman or child id kill if my daughter was felt down there ohhhhhhh i dont want to think about it makes u sick with thinking...
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
What I know?? what i hear?? I 'm not sure that that is right or not.
Women with this large clit. will need at least 10 men to please her lust..so, she will be considered bith not chaste..So, it's advisable to cut off a very very very small peace.
I'm not sure with that. I may be wrong.
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: What I know?? what i hear?? I 'm not sure that that is right or not.
Women with this large clit. will need at least 10 men to please her lust..so, she will be considered bith not chaste..So, it's advisable to cut off a very very very small peace.
I'm not sure with that. I may be wrong.
I think you'd better check out the source of your facts first islamsweden.org. How many women was this study done on and how did they measure it?
And what about men who say they need 10 women or those that can't control themselves, what do you suggest for them?
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
The secretions of the labia minora accumulate in uncircumcised women and turn rancid, so they develop an unpleasant odour which may lead to infections of the vagina or urethra. I have seen many cases of sickness caused by the lack of circumcision.
Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the clitoris which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse.
Another benefit of circumcision is that it prevents stimulation of the clitoris which makes it grow large in such a manner that it causes pain.
Circumcision prevents spasms of the clitoris which are a kind of inflammation.
Circumcision reduces excessive sexual desire.
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Please do, and also get the equivalent study on how to control exaggerated male sexual arousal.
If I remember correctly more crimes of rape and sexual harrassment are caused by men. Are they committed cirumcised men usually or not (of course that study would have to be a comparative one within specific countries, due to the global imbalance of circumcised males)? Has any one actually done a study on that yet? And if male circumcision can reduce the chances of contracting AIDS, what would the benefits be of male castration (the male equivalent of female genital mutilation) be?
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Of course what i meant by circucision isnt what people nowadys do.. Dont misunderstand me!
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Found that and searching for others
The secretions of the labia minora accumulate in uncircumcised women and turn rancid, so they develop an unpleasant odour which may lead to infections of the vagina or urethra. I have seen many cases of sickness caused by the lack of circumcision.
Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the clitoris which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse.
Another benefit of circumcision is that it prevents stimulation of the clitoris which makes it grow large in such a manner that it causes pain.
Circumcision prevents spasms of the clitoris which are a kind of inflammation.
Circumcision reduces excessive sexual desire.
Who wrote that garbage? Please give your reference.
Infection comes from infibulation far more often than from lack of circumcision!!! If women wash themselves they don't get infections from vaginal secretions whether circumcised or not!
So you say women have to get circumcised because if they get aroused it annoys the husband
The pain and the spasms are part of the female orgasm...take that away and you will find men complaining! And they also complain about their circumcised wives as they say that they have no sexual desire at all.
Seems that the men complain no matter what!
I don't see anywhere in all that, how the woman will benefit from it!
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: What I know?? what i hear?? I 'm not sure that that is right or not.
Women with this large clit. will need at least 10 men to please her lust..so, she will be considered bith not chaste..So, it's advisable to cut off a very very very small peace.
I'm not sure with that. I may be wrong.
ur swedish says alot
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
I see its quoted from from an article by Dr. Haamid al-Ghawaabi in Liwa’ al-Islam magazine, issue 8 and 10; article entitled Khitaan al-Banaat (circumcision of girls), which all goes to show that you have to be selective about which references you take from where. Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
When in Egypt one might be surrounded with rhetoric justifying this since a lot of people are guilty of condoning or executing or offering their girls to have it done if the figures are that high. I heard doctors would do it and have 'medical' excuses they get away with. It is a lifestyle still to a lot of common people. I wonder what is needed for people to let it stop. As we proceed as a people we did let go of barbaric acts (mmm...and found new ones instead too).
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
What does it take to trust my SIL and/or MIL with my daughter? Can't take the risk now.
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Demiana: What does it take to trust my SIL and/or MIL with my daughter? Can't take the risk now.
Have they expressed interest in having your daughter circumcized? Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just silence. And then my dh came to tell me all this lines about it being backwarded, from 30 years ago, countryside whatever. But it is the women that perform this. I have a hard time trusting them on this since they want speak to me about this and the figures are this high. After some years of asking, writing letters, I just gave up. At least they know where I stand on this.
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Demiana: Just silence. And then my dh came to tell me all this lines about it being backwarded, from 30 years ago, countryside whatever. But it is the women that perform this. I have a hard time trusting them on this since they want speak to me about this and the figures are this high. After some years of asking, writing letters, I just gave up. At least they know where I stand on this.
I'm sorry. If you can't get a straight answer out of them about this, then I totally agree with you, keep your daughter under your eye at all times.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Found that and searching for others
The secretions of the labia minora accumulate in uncircumcised women and turn rancid, so they develop an unpleasant odour which may lead to infections of the vagina or urethra. I have seen many cases of sickness caused by the lack of circumcision.
Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the clitoris which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse.
Another benefit of circumcision is that it prevents stimulation of the clitoris which makes it grow large in such a manner that it causes pain.
Circumcision prevents spasms of the clitoris which are a kind of inflammation.
Circumcision reduces excessive sexual desire.
I'm familiar with this text and "garbage" does not even come close to how I would describe it. Islamsweden, I suggest you check out the discussion in the link I posted and also do some research on human rights or Islamic websites that have articles about the subject. But please, PLEASE educate yourself on such an important subject instead of uncritically accepting and further promoting stuff that's scientifically and morally wrong.
You don't seem to know much about the subject in general and you obviously don't know much at all about women's physique. Please do some research on that before you make statements like "a little cutting can't do harm if the sheikhs say it's ok." And please don't believe those ridiculous fairytales about women's desires going wild and women who need sex all the time or ten men to satisfy their lust and stuff like that ...
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Found that and searching for others
The secretions of the labia minora accumulate in uncircumcised women and turn rancid, so they develop an unpleasant odour which may lead to infections of the vagina or urethra. I have seen many cases of sickness caused by the lack of circumcision.
Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the clitoris which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse.
Another benefit of circumcision is that it prevents stimulation of the clitoris which makes it grow large in such a manner that it causes pain.
Circumcision prevents spasms of the clitoris which are a kind of inflammation.
Circumcision reduces excessive sexual desire.
I'm familiar with this text and "garbage" does not even come close to how I would describe it. Islamsweden, I suggest you check out the discussion in the link I posted and also do some research on human rights or Islamic websites that have articles about the subject. But please, PLEASE educate yourself on such an important subject instead of uncritically accepting and further promoting stuff that's scientifically and morally wrong.
You don't seem to know much about the subject in general and you obviously don't know much at all about women's physique. Please do some research on that before you make statements like "a little cutting can't do harm if the sheikhs say it's ok." And please don't believe those ridiculous fairytales about women's desires going wild and women who need sex all the time or ten men to satisfy their lust and stuff like that ...
Hey, Dlaia Calm On. I may hear wrong informtion and I say that. But I'm talking about those women who have larger clit more than normal.. Most of women dont have this large size. So, this operation doesnt concern lots of women...
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
You are an idiot for even thinking such a thing and you don't know jack sh*t about women!
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: What I know?? what i hear?? I 'm not sure that that is right or not.
Women with this large clit. will need at least 10 men to please her lust..so, she will be considered bith not chaste..So, it's advisable to cut off a very very very small peace.
posted
A website about Islam does not make the practice right or humane. It is clearly disgusting and the men are the ones who need to be controlled, not the women. Another backwards tradition throughout the uncivilized Middle East and Africa.
You can't walk anywhere in the Middle East without getting either stared at, whistled or even touched. What happened to the "lower your gaze" crap?????? If they can't keep from the whistling and the harrassment, how can they even begin to lower their gaze?
quote:Originally posted by geezer:
quote:Originally posted by newcomer: Who wrote that garbage? Please give your reference.
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: What I know?? what i hear?? I 'm not sure that that is right or not.
Women with this large clit. will need at least 10 men to please her lust..so, she will be considered bith not chaste..So, it's advisable to cut off a very very very small peace.
I'm not sure with that. I may be wrong.
what alot of rubbish!!!! man you need your head sorting. please educate yourself before posting stupid rubbish like this and you are trying to do duwa!!!what a jock!!!
Posts: 816 | From: london | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
By Laura MacInnis GENEVA, June 2 (Reuters) - Female circumcision, performed on as many as 3 million girls each year, complicates childbirth later in life and causes higher mortality among their babies, the World Health Organisation (WHO) said on Friday. In a new report, the United Nations agency said women who had undergone the practice, also known as female genital mutilation, were up to 70 percent more vulnerable to potentially fatal haemorrhage after delivery than those who had not. Its study, involving some 28,000 women at obstetric centres in six African countries where the practice is common, said babies born to circumcised women were as much as 55 percent more likely to die during or immediately after childbirth. "We have, for the first time, evidence that deliveries among women who have been subject to female genital mutilation are significantly more likely to be complicated and dangerous," said Joy Phumaphi, WHO assistant director-general for family and community health. Up to 20 out of every 1,000 babies born in Africa die as a direct result of their mothers' circumcision, the WHO said. About 100 million women worldwide are estimated to have undergone genital mutilation, which can involve cutting away the clitoris and external genitalia and stitching the vaginal opening in order to reduce women's sexual appetite. The WHO said relatively inelastic scar tissue formed around the wounds could cause obstruction and prolonged labour "which increases the risk of caesarean section, heavy bleeding, distress in the infant and stillbirth". The degree of complications increased according to the extent and severity of the procedure. While predominant in 28 African countries, including Sudan, Chad, Sierra Leone and Djibouti, female circumcision also takes place in some areas of the Middle East and Asia and among immigrant communities in Europe and North America. Girls generally undergo the rite before the age of 10, often without anaesthesia and in unsanitary conditions where they are exposed to dangerous infections including HIV. Phumaphi said the WHO strongly opposed having doctors perform female genital mutilations to ensure they took place in a clean or safe setting. Recommending that health professionals be involved in female circumcision would be endorsing an unacceptable practice, she said. "That is the worst possible thing we can do. It is worse than turning a blind eye." Many African nations have legislated against female genital mutilation but few are enforcing the rules, Berhane Ras-Work of the Inter-African Committee for Traditional Practices said. Citing Senegal and Burkina Faso as exceptions, she said most countries in Africa were doing little to stop the widely decried practice meant to ensure girls stay chaste before marriage and remain loyal to their husbands. In some areas, female circumcision is also seen as a means to initiate girls into womanhood or improve hygiene. While some consider the rite a requirement under the Muslim faith, the WHO denied this, saying the practice predated Islam.
I think people here should learn to criticize other people politely.
My opinion was about those women who have larger clit more than normal...
it's not my fault that people are stupid and not understanding.. It will be better to try to understand my point.
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Snapdragon: A website about Islam does not make the practice right or humane. It is clearly disgusting and the men are the ones who need to be controlled, not the women. Another backwards tradition throughout the uncivilized Middle East and Africa.
You can't walk anywhere in the Middle East without getting either stared at, whistled or even touched. What happened to the "lower your gaze" crap?????? If they can't keep from the whistling and the harrassment, how can they even begin to lower their gaze?
quote:Originally posted by geezer:
quote:Originally posted by newcomer: Who wrote that garbage? Please give your reference.
OK, chill. I don't agree with it either. newcomer asked where it was from, and I gave the source. I don't like Islam-qa.com in the first place - thought the answer was typical for them. Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
women are calling for their rights. then, i see that they are insulting others.....
I dont respect women who see that their rights is to insult other people.
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
That's really sad.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
she may that operation! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
If you can't get a straight answer out of them about this, then I totally agree with you, keep your daughter under your eye at all times.
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic