posted
from someone who defends homosexuality ( dalia in other posts) why would her opinion matter ? knowing that she refuses what the religion says about homosexuals and further more completely denies it and her reason was " she has homos friends" so Do you believe some one who defend homosexuality? Noting that she is using the opinions of Emams( here in this thread) who she attacks in their fatwa against homosexuality( in the Homosexuality thread).
also the fatwa about female circumcisons she brought doesnt prohibit the sunnah circumcions for females. but prohibits the other illegal types of females circumcisons.
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: from someone who defends homosexuality why would her opinion matter ?
Do you believe some one who defend homosexuality?
the word pejorative springs to mind for the first time since 1994.
Posts: 5642 | From: hellonearth.myfastforum.org Forum Index | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: from someone who defends homosexuality ( dalia in other posts) why would her opinion matter
I don't expect you to agree with Dalia, but this argument -- that since someone believes one thing, then *everything* she posts must be wrong -- is entirely illogical.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: actually there is no verse in Quran saying that The prayers are 5. This is an translation of an explanation of Quran thorugh Sunnah.
If you search the whole Arabic Quran you will never find that the prayer are 5.
Anyway, aks your questions again one by one.
so you are saying these verses are NOT a translation of Quran?
Im sorry I cant take you serious anymore
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: actually there is no verse in Quran saying that The prayers are 5. This is an translation of an explanation of Quran thorugh Sunnah.
If you search the whole Arabic Quran you will never find that the prayer are 5.
Anyway, aks your questions again one by one.
so you are saying these verses are NOT a translation of Quran?
Im sorry I cant take you serious anymore
Assalamu alaykum Ayisha!
What you wrote in the last page was actually not a translation of the Qur'an. It was an interpretation of the verses with additional notes added to give explanations of the meanings that have been gathered from the Prophet's Sunnah. See if you can find someone to give you an exact translation of the Arabic and you will find in this case that islamsweden is correct.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: actually there is no verse in Quran saying that The prayers are 5. This is an translation of an explanation of Quran thorugh Sunnah.
If you search the whole Arabic Quran you will never find that the prayer are 5.
Anyway, aks your questions again one by one.
so you are saying these verses are NOT a translation of Quran?
Im sorry I cant take you serious anymore
Assalamu alaykum Ayisha!
What you wrote in the last page was actually not a translation of the Qur'an. It was an interpretation of the verses with additional notes added to give explanations of the meanings that have been gathered from the Prophet's Sunnah. See if you can find someone to give you an exact translation of the Arabic and you will find in this case that islamsweden is correct.
salam alaikum newcomer.the last post i made on the last page was the same verses from Quran that i had posted before. It is Yousef Ali interpretation of the Quran, the notes in bold where MINE showing islamsweden which prayer is referred to, other than my notes in bold it was directly from Yousef Ali interpretation.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I had realised that Ayisha, but if you actually look around at other translations/interpretations of the Qur'an you will see that there are other possible interpretations of those verses which could indicate that there may just be 3 prayers during the day. In fact some people who only refer to the Qur'an for the prayer times and ignore the Prophet's Sunnah do just pray 3 times a day. The Qur'an never specifies that there are five daily prayers nor the manner in which they are to be performed in detail. So for the explanation of how and when to pray we need to refer to the Sunnah, in accordance with Allah's commands to obey what the Prophet teaches (59:7, 4:58-59).
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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LOL ... what happened to this thread? How come prayers and homosexuality into this? Looks like islamsweden has been trying hard to distract from the fact that he has run out of arguments.
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org:
Anyway, again I asked u, Sarah, Dalia everyone, do you really and honestly understand the all types of females circumscion???? ...
please please please please please please please please please please please please please, When you are talking about Female circumcion, just Identify the type...
... So it's a must to understand the diffrence among Clitoridotomy" ,"Clitoridectomy" and "Infibulation"
by the way, I think people are misunderstanding me altogether..
I mean "Clitoridotomy" and not "Clitoridectomy" and of course not "Infibulation"
I find it very strange that you spent two pages of this thread trying to "educate" us about the different methods of cutting and "medical indications" - and then you post a fatwa that calls for clitoridectomy - precisely the thing you've been claiming you're so opposed to!
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org:
Circumcision of the female consists of the removal of a part of the clitoris, which is situated above the opening of the urethra. The Sunnah is not to remove all of it, but only a part. (al-Mawsu‘ah al-Fiqhiyyah 19/28).
In this matter, it is wise to follow the interests of the female: if the clitoris is large, then part of it should be removed
This is from a link you posted earlier on: Clitoridectomy means the partial or total removal of the external part of the clitoris.
There is no mentioning either of this being a procedure required in rare cases and for particular medical conditions; this sheikh is saying that part of a normal, healthy organ in a healthy woman / girl should be cut off.
I don't know what you've been trying to "prove" with this bizarre fatwa, but all you've done is demonstrating that you obviously don't understand most of the stuff you're reading.
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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the fatwa about female circumcisons she brought doesnt prohibit the sunnah circumcions for females. but prohibits the other illegal types of females circumcisons.
" ... The Prophetic Tradition is free of what is called the circumcision of the Sunnah for females. Further, the Prophet's Sirah (i.e., Biography), which records everything about the Prophet (PBUH) in detail, has no mention that he (PBUH) practiced circumcision on his daughters, wives, or any female member of his household.
... There is not even one legal religious evidence in the main sources of Shari`ah to prove the legality of female circumcision. That is to say, female circumcision is not an obligatory act, an act of the Sunnah, or even an honorable act as clarified beforehand.
As far as Sunnah is concerned, there are some Prophetic Hadiths that may indicate the legality of practicing female circumcision despite the fact that none of these Hadiths have an authentic chain of transmitters so that it is not possible to deduce a legal ruling from them on such a very serious human matter.
Thus, it is unacceptable, according to scholars, to use Hadiths of an unauthentic chain of transmitters as an argument for some matter as only Hadiths of authentic chain of transmitters can be applied as an argument. ...
"The Hadith of female circumcision has been reported through so many ways all of which are weak, blemished and defective, and thus it is unacceptable to prove a legal ruling through such ways." (6) To conclude, the Hadith in question does not benefit and no argument can be derived from it. ...
In conclusion, it becomes clear that there is no sahih Sunnah (authentic sunnah) to prove the legality of female circumcision as all hadiths cited in such a matter are da'if (weak) and no legal ruling can be deduced from them. Such a practice (female circumcision) is nothing but a habit which Islam has left for time and medical progress to invalidate. ...
Because female circumcision is an act of hurting a female by cutting parts from her body, it is not reasonable to say that such an act is among the permissible matters, for it is, on the contrary, legally prohibited according to religious rule that states "the original ruling pertaining to the harm caused against bodies, properties, and reputations, is prohibition not permissibility". ..."
"The Maliki school holds that female circumcession is Sunnah, while Hanafi school as well as a reported view from the Hanbli school maintain that it is not sunnah; rather it is merely a makrumah (customarily recommended act, but no provisions in the Qur’an or Sunnah obligate nor recommend it). "
"In my point of view, female circumcision is permissible, but it is an established rule that permissible matters may be banned if they happen to involve harm, due to the juristic rule that there should be no harm, nor reciprocating harm. Permissible matters may also remain in practice and be improved, as implied in the above hadith regarding the way of female circumcision. "
Our imams allah blessings on them didnt leave us alone and if they didnt cover anything then it was meant to be , that we have to think about it and decide for ourselves , but the issue of FC was mentiones by malik , hanbal and shafii and hanbal. and we dont need non-muslims to tell us what to do. they can keep whatever they believe in for themselves ( today or maybe change it tomorrow) but what we have from allah is the truth that will remain where and when no one else exists in this life.
muslims should not be ashmed to learn , and when you asked your first question , you werent asking for a fatwa but rather about an opinion and when you found a controversy ; you read in more depth then found what the 4 scholars said about the matter. which is the muslim way/path..to know and learn but when it comes to DO it must have a solid ground and a sound reason to follow. not like non-muslims , if they want something then do it..regret later or deny it its up to them like if there were no Allah...but thats normal , they dont believe in Allah anyway so how come they would believe in us Muslims
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
It has to do with some arab men and religious leaders sexual insecurity - and nothing to do with religion or healthissues!
Women has the right to enjoy sex asmuch as men. That gives the most happy relationsship between a man and a woman. When a man is really able to please his woman - then his a real man. Thats what these ignorant fools are afraid they cant, so their wifes may seek sexual pleasure elsewhere.
Posts: 1215 | From: Nowhere | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: from someone who defends homosexuality ( dalia in other posts) why would her opinion matter ? knowing that she refuses what the religion says about homosexuals and further more completely denies it and her reason was " she has homos friends" so Do you believe some one who defend homosexuality? Noting that she is using the opinions of Emams( here in this thread) who she attacks in their fatwa against homosexuality( in the Homosexuality thread).
also the fatwa about female circumcisons she brought doesnt prohibit the sunnah circumcions for females. but prohibits the other illegal types of females circumcisons.
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: the issue of FC was mentiones by malik , hanbal and shafii and hanbal. and we dont need non-muslims to tell us what to do.
"... if we wish to find out the ruling of Islamic law on the question of female circumcision, we should seek it in the Quran, then in the sunna, then in the consensus of scholars, and finally by analogy. We may find help in the interpretations of scholars, reassuring us that we have understood the text correctly, and confirming our conclusion. However, in the light of the knowledge now available to us and the progress made in medical science in particular, we may find nothing of benefit in those interpretations. When this is the case, we disregard them and pay no attention to what is set down in the books of scholars.
The Quran makes no mention, whether explicit or implicit, of female circumcision. There is no consensus on the ruling of Islamic law in regard to it, and no analogy that is relevant and admissible.
As for the sunna, it is the source to which the presumed legitimacy of female circumcision is ascribed, and this is because of certain quotations attributed to the Prophet, Peace Be Upon Him in some anthologies of hadith. In fact, there is no authentic evidence in the cited statements which allows for sanctioning this act, which has such serious matter, with its serious implications for human life as a whole. ...
... it is clear that in true sunna there is no evidence that female circumcision is endorsed, that all the hadith on female circumcision used as evidence are poor in authenticity and cannot serve as the basis for a religious ruling, and that the practice is nothing other than a custom which Islam left for time and for progress in medicine to refine or abolish....
... it is clear that in Islamic ruling, clitoridotomy is neither an obligation nor a sunna, with no evidence supporting either. Nor is it a sign of respect because all the hadith endorsing it are poor in authenticity. It is rather a custom, and as such it is not common in all Islamic countries; it is restricted to some. Besides, it is a custom that causes an absolute injury, the infliction of which on any person cannot be accepted without legitimate justification. It is an injury which, particularly in its psychological aspect, cannot be compensated for. If its practice and the injustice it involves, as it is practised in all its forms that are common in our country, causes a woman to lose her ability to enjoy sexual satisfaction, scholars rule that retribution or blood money is due.
...
We should remind those who advocate female circumcision, believing it to be a religious practice, that the thing we are discussing is not a theoretical concept which can serve as a suitable subject of controversy. It is rather a custom which is very common.
Published Egyptian statistics reveal that 95% of all Egyptian females are subjected to circumcision (Facts about female circumcision, The Egyptian Society for Protection against Practices Harmful to Women and Children, 1993, p.11). The practice takes one of three forms, none of which conforms to the procedure advocated by those who sanction female circumcision. All three forms deviate from that procedure.
...
Physicians and nonphysicians equally shoulder the criminal and civil responsibility for this atrocity. The female genitals in their normal form and as created by God are not a disease, nor a cause of disease. Nor do they cause any sort of pain which requires surgical intervention. Thus any surgical tampering with this delicate, natural system, in any of the forms of female circumcision, is not regarded by the law as falling under any of the valid reasons for surgery, which are medical treatment, detection of a disease, relief from a current pain, or prevention of an expected one. Therefore, the surgical procedure in question is not allowed and calls for punishment. ... "
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote: , that all the hadith on female circumcision used as evidence are poor in authenticity and cannot serve as the basis for a religious ruling
1-some scholars who are in deep knowledge of Hadith science prove the authenticity of those hadith
2-let's assume that the hadith is weak, When Science proves the benefits of the operations upon some famales, then is it prohibited to carry out it in Islam?? So, In this situation, we have to apply science because science proves the authenticity of The hadith.
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote: , that all the hadith on female circumcision used as evidence are poor in authenticity and cannot serve as the basis for a religious ruling
1-some scholars who are in deep knowledge of Hadith science prove the authenticity of those hadith
2-let's assume that the hadith is weak, When Science proves the benefits of the operations upon some famales, then is it prohibited to carry out it in Islam?? So, In this situation, we have to apply science because science proves the authenticity of The hadith.
i dont understand, is there something wrong in your understanding of the written word or did you not READ the entire article or are you deliberately twisting what you read to help your argument?
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Circumcision of Girls The view that we arrived at when discussing the ruling of circumcision was indeed particular to males.
Perhaps the closest of the sayings to the truth is that circumcision is prescribed for women and allowed for them and is not an obligation, and that is due to the following:
1) The saying of the Prophet (SAW):
"When two circumcised parts unite then bathing becomes obligatory." (Sahih, Reported by Ahmad and Al-Baihaqee)
2) The saying of the Messenger (SAW) in the Hadith of Umm ‘Atiyyah to a female circumcision:
"When you circumcise then do not cut severely, since that is better for her and more pleasing to the husband." (Reported by Abu Dawud and Al-Baihaqee and declared Hasan by Shaikh Al-Albani)
3) And to those who declare it to be obligatory upon the women, then it is said: Rather the other refers to the men and it is not correct to transfer the ruling to the women, since they differ from men in their nature and constitution and there is no proof for its obligation upon them except for an analogy - and that cannot be applied here as we have mentioned.
4) As for the Hadith of Umm ‘Atiyyah then it shows no more than an allowance as has preceded, not an obligation.
The harm that is attributed to this operation cannot be ascribed to circumcision itself, rather to two matters:
1) Cutting too severely - as occurs in some Islamic lands - such that the clitoris or its hood is totally removed, indeed sometimes even the outer lips (labia) are removed and the vaginal orifice closed. It is essential to point out here that this is not the prescribed Shariah method by the Messenger (SAW) who warned against its saying: "When you circumcise then do not do so severely…"
2) Or the harm is also due to this operation being carried out by those who do not specialize in this field, or by the use of unsterilized instruments which causes infection or harmful illnesses.
So when we consider this harm, we find that it is not caused by circumcision itself, but rather by contradicting the text forbidding cutting severely, or by using unhygienic instruments, and this cannot be used to prevent the operation itself - if properly performed - since it male circumcision were to be performed by cutting to excess or with unhygienic instruments - then that would also be detested and rejected. So would this be a reason to prevent male circumcision? So the same goes with regard to females.
So from what has preceded it becomes clear that female circumcision - if done correctly - such that the cutting is limited, and done with proper instruments - is something prescribed and produces health and psychological benefits - and is far removed from harmful effects of danger.
Benefits of Female Circumcision A number of doctors have affirmed that female circumcision produces a number of benefits. Female circumcision shares some of the benefits of male circumcision, and has extra benefits particular to it - some of them being mentioned by our Prophet Muhammad (SAW) who said that it is:
"Better for the woman and more pleasing for the husband" and that it is "Better of the face and more pleasing to the husband." (Reported by Al-Baihaqee)
And as is known these benefits so not reach the level of importance of the benefits of male circumcision. However, they are benefits and productive of good effects.
Here are some of the benefits which have been discovered:
1) A reduction of infections resulting from microbes gathering under the hood of the clitoris.
2) Attacks of herpes and genital ulcers are less severe and less harmful with men and women who have been circumcised.
3) A further benefit that is apparent for women and more so for their husbands, is that women of hot climates often have a large clitoris which arouses their desires when it rubs against the adjacent clothing. It may even
posted
3) A further benefit that is apparent for women and more so for their husbands, is that women of hot climates often have a large clitoris which arouses their desires when it rubs against the adjacent clothing. It may even grow to such a size that sexual intercourse is not possible. Therefore, circumcision reduces her desires and their effects in the first case, and makes intercourse possible in the second case.
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: women of hot climates often have a large clitoris which arouses their desires when it rubs against the adjacent clothing.
Those "arguments" are getting more ridiculous with every post.
Men of all climates usually have a penis that, whatever its size, rubs against the adjacent clothing.
I don't think anyone with all his senses intact would suggest cutting off the penis in order to prevent this ...
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: women of hot climates often have a large clitoris which arouses their desires when it rubs against the adjacent clothing.
Those "arguments" are getting more ridiculous with every post.
Men of all climates usually have a penis that, whatever its size, rubs against the adjacent clothing.
I don't think anyone with all his senses intact would suggest cutting off the penis in order to prevent this ...
i think you dont know lots about women's and men's genitalia! you cant post this post except if you are kidding or lacking information.
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: i think you dont know lots about women's and men's genitalia!
No, but I'm sure you do. After all, you have proven your deep expertise by educating us so eloquently on the subject.
I do wonder where you're getting all those strange ideas from though ... do you happen to watch a lot of porn??? Women getting excited by their clothing - sure, lol! I guess we must also be prohibited from riding a bike or a motorcycle or sitting on a horse then ... according to your theory that should have us raging with hornyness.
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: 3) A further benefit that is apparent for women and more so for their husbands, is that women of hot climates often have a large clitoris which arouses their desires when it rubs against the adjacent clothing.
What a load of crap, this is one of the most ridiculous arguments I ever heard. What is bothering you so much with Clits and Labia and turning your nights into nightmares? It is God's creation, stop medelling with it to please a sick ego.
Posts: 657 | From: Cairo | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: women of hot climates often have a large clitoris which arouses their desires when it rubs against the adjacent clothing.
i think you dont know lots about women's and men's genitalia! you cant post this post except if you are kidding or lacking information. right back at ya Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Women with larger hoods can often masturbate by working the hood to and fro over the head of their clitoris. Women with more compact structures tend to rub the clitoris and hood together as one item. Sometimes the glans clitoris is too sensitive to be rubbed with the hood fully pulled back.
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: women of hot climates often have a large clitoris which arouses their desires when it rubs against the adjacent clothing.
i think you dont know lots about women's and men's genitalia! you cant post this post except if you are kidding or lacking information. right back at ya
I'm so amazed how people dont know these facts or you are ignoring these facts......
I will bring you facts you are ignoring from wikipedia
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Women with larger hoods can often masturbate by working the hood to and fro over the head of their clitoris. Women with more compact structures tend to rub the clitoris and hood together as one item. Sometimes the glans clitoris is too sensitive to be rubbed with the hood fully pulled back.
So that make us uncontrolling sexfreaks and gives the men and religious leaders the right to remove our clit....... Please come on man. How many horny women through themselfes at your dick every day??????
Posts: 1215 | From: Nowhere | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Women with larger hoods can often masturbate by working the hood to and fro over the head of their clitoris. Women with more compact structures tend to rub the clitoris and hood together as one item. Sometimes the glans clitoris is too sensitive to be rubbed with the hood fully pulled back.
So that make us uncontrolling sexfreaks and gives the men and religious leaders the right to remove our clit.......
who is Us?? I'm talking about some women who have large abnormal clit . It doesnt concern lots of women here whose clits are normal.
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
So do you want them to obey a kind of religious law and force them to have their clit measured in point of posible reduction to prevent them from becoming sexual horny monsters that will destroy the islamic morals???????
Posts: 1215 | From: Nowhere | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
New word in islamic countries perhaps - "clitpolice" Im glad to be an atheist foreigner........
Posts: 1215 | From: Nowhere | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Tibe: New word in islamic countries perhaps - "clitpolice" Im glad to be an atheist foreigner........
cant do that Tibe as its NOT Islamic, which Islamsweden started out trying to prove it WAS but has now posted enough to prove its NOT
anyway, i dont get aroused when I walk around so i want a refund as i was obviously ripped off and given a defective one Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Women with larger hoods can often masturbate by working the hood to and fro over the head of their clitoris. Women with more compact structures tend to rub the clitoris and hood together as one item. Sometimes the glans clitoris is too sensitive to be rubbed with the hood fully pulled back.
Don't Rely on the Wikipedia. This interesting piece from American Chronicle criticizes the huge flaws in the Wikipedia model: One in which articles about people and subjects are written collaboratively by volunteers that can be changed by anyone with Internet access.
Before taking the information you look up on Wikipedia for the straight scoop, consider some of these problems:
- Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia, but a collection of eclectic information generated regularly by a community of users. - Often, experts are scorned and abused on Wikipedia listings, because everyone is treated equally when it comes to editing and contributing. - The Wikipedia model is an opaque one because contributors and editors remain anonymous and, as such, pages (including ones dealing with history) are often edited, rewritten and erased. http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=11109Posts: 45 | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Tibe: New word in islamic countries perhaps - "clitpolice" Im glad to be an atheist foreigner........
In Indonesia, 90% of Islamic mothers surveyed support the practice of female circumcision—and hospitals are now offering a two-for-one deal: Genital Mutilation Half Price Sale
"Most of those who were circumcised were babies, but older people come, too. "Sometimes there are also women of 20 or 30. Even grandmothers aged 50 or 60 years old come." Those who had the procedure described it as "like an ant bite".
"Masitoh Chusnan, from the women's wing of Muhammadiyah, one of Indonesia's two biggest Muslim organisations, says the circumcision of girls is regarded in Islam as an honourable practice. "The Hadith did not say it's obligatory, but it is recommended to have it done," she says. "There is the Prophet's words saying girls must be circumcised but you should not cut too much."
the USAid-funded study by the Population Council surveyed 1694 households in eight regions and found all the boys and 97.5 per cent of girls had been circumcised.
Posts: 45 | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Tibe: So do you want them to obey a kind of religious law and force them to have their clit measured in point of posible reduction
Yeah, I've been wondering about this ever since this argument was first brought up, but never got an explanation. Who decides what is "large", and when is "large" = "abnormal"? And why in the world should a healthy organ be mutilated just because of its size? And what about "abnormally large" penises - following this weird logic they should also be surgically reduced!
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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A number of doctors have affirmed that female circumcision produces a number of benefits.
NEW STUDY SHOWS FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION EXPOSES WOMEN AND BABIES TO SIGNIFICANT RISK AT CHILDBIRTH
2 JUNE 2006 | GENEVA -- A new study published by the World Health Organization (WHO) has shown that women who have had Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) are significantly more likely to experience difficulties during childbirth and that their babies are more likely to die as a result of the practice.
Serious complications during childbirth include the need to have a caesarean section, dangerously heavy bleeding after the birth of the baby and prolonged hospitalization following the birth. The study showed that the degree of complications increased according to the extent and severity of the FGM.
In the case of caesarean section, women who have been subjected to the most serious form of FGM ("FGM III") will have on average 30 per cent more caesarean sections compared with those who have not had any FGM. Similarly there is a 70 per cent increase in numbers of women who suffer from postpartum haemorrhage in those with FGM III compared to those women without FGM.*
"As a result of this study we have, for the first time, evidence that deliveries among women who have been subject to FGM are significantly more likely to be complicated and dangerous," said Joy Phumaphi, Assistant Director-General, Family and Community Health, WHO. " FGM is a practice steeped in culture and tradition but it should not be allowed to carry on. We must support communities in their efforts to abandon the practice and to improve care for those who have undergone FGM.
We must also steadfastly resist the medicalization of FGM. WHO is totally opposed to FGM being carried out by medical personnel."
The study also found that FGM put the women's babies in substantial danger during childbirth. Researchers found there was an increased need to resuscitate babies whose mother had had FGM (66% higher in women with FGM III). The death rate among babies during and immediately after birth is also much higher for those born to mothers with FGM: 15% higher in those with FGM I, 32% higher in those with FGM II, and 55% higher in those with FGM III. It is estimated that in the African context an additional 10 to 20 babies die per 1000 deliveries as a result of the practice.
"This research was carried out in hospitals where the obstetric staff are used to dealing with women who have undergone FGM. The consequences for the countless women and babies who deliver at home without the help of experienced staff are likely to be even worse," added WHO's Dr Paul Van Look, Director of the Special Programme for Human Reproduction Research (HRP) which organized the study.
The study involved 28,393 women at 28 obstetric centres in six countries, where FGM is common - Burkina Faso, Ghana, Kenya, Nigeria, Senegal and Sudan. The centres varied from relatively isolated rural hospitals to teaching hospitals in capital cities. They were chosen to provide appropriate diversity of types of FGM.
"These findings are of great importance for countries," said Professor Saad M El Fadil, the study Principal Investigator in Sudan. "This high-quality research was carried out in numerous hospitals in African countries where FGM is common and for the first time gives clear evidence of its harmful effects for women and babies."
FGM is a common practice in a number of countries, predominantly in Africa. It involves partial or total removal of the external female genitalia or other deliberate injury to the female genital organs whether for cultural or non- therapeutic reasons. Over 100 million women and girls are estimated to have had FGM worldwide.
Although practices vary from country to country, FGM is generally performed on girls under 10 years of age and leads to varying amounts of scar formation. It is not entirely clear why FGM leads to increased complications during childbirth, but one possible explanation is that this scar tissue is relatively inelastic and can lead to obstruction and tearing of the tissues around the vagina during childbirth. Obstruction can lead to prolonged labour, which increases the risk of caesarean section, heavy bleeding, distress in the infant and stillbirth. Women with FGM are also more likely to undergo episiotomy (surgical cut during delivery to prevent vaginal tears).
According to Associate Professor Emily Banks of the Australian National University, "This study shows that where around 5.0% of babies born to women without FGM were stillborn or died shortly after delivery, this figure increased to 6.4% in babies born to women with FGM. In many parts of Africa death rates are even higher and the impact of FGM is likely to be even greater." The authors of the study say that this new evidence is of crucial importance to communities where FGM is practiced, both for the women who have had FGM and to protect future generations of women and girls from FGM. FGM remains a pressing human rights issue and reliable evidence regarding its harmful effects, both for mothers and their babies, should contribute to the abandonment of the practice. WHO is committed to work with international partners and countries to eliminate FGM. It is in direct violation of young girls’ rights, has both short-term and long-term adverse health consequences, and is an unnecessary procedure.
*Note: Female genital mutilation (FGM), often referred to as 'female circumcision', covers all procedures involving partial or total removal of the external female genitalia or other injury to the female genital organs whether for cultural, religious or other non-therapeutic reasons. There are different types of female genital mutilation known to be practised today. They include:
Type I (FGM 1) - excision of the prepuce, with or without excision of part or all of the clitoris;
Type II (FGM II) - excision of the clitoris with partial or total excision of the labia minora;
Type III (FGM III) - excision of part or all of the external genitalia and stitching/narrowing of the vaginal opening (infibulation)
posted
The harm that is attributed to this operation cannot be ascribed to circumcision itself, rather to two matters:
1) Cutting too severely - as occurs in some Islamic lands - such that the clitoris or its hood is totally removed, indeed sometimes even the outer lips (labia) are removed and the vaginal orifice closed. It is essential to point out here that this is not the prescribed Shariah method by the Messenger (SAW) who warned against its saying: "When you circumcise then do not do so severely…"
2) Or the harm is also due to this operation being carried out by those who do not specialize in this field, or by the use of unsterilized instruments which causes infection or harmful illnesses.
So when we consider this harm, we find that it is not caused by circumcision itself, but rather by contradicting the text forbidding cutting severely, or by using unhygienic instruments, and this cannot be used to prevent the operation itself - if properly performed - since it male circumcision were to be performed by cutting to excess or with unhygienic instruments - then that would also be detested and rejected. So would this be a reason to prevent male circumcision? So the same goes with regard to females.
So from what has preceded it becomes clear that female circumcision - if done correctly - such that the cutting is limited, and done with proper instruments - is something prescribed and produces health and psychological benefits - and is far removed from harmful effects of danger.
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: 2) Or the harm is also due to this operation being carried out by those who do not specialize in this field, or by the use of unsterilized instruments which causes infection or harmful illnesses.
The danger of medicalization
Some countries have sought to encourage performance of less severe forms of FGM by qualified medical professionals. Sudan, Djibouti and Egypt have all tried this strategy, rather than imposing a complete ban. Experience has shown, however, that such policies are unsuccessful, and only serve to legitimize and perpetuate genital mutilation. In some cases older female relatives have merely performed another, more severe operation if they feel the procedure has not been carried out adequately.
The involvement of medical professionals in FGM undermines the message that FGM denies women and girls their right to the highest attainable standard of health. Most activists are strongly opposed to medical involvement in FGM and argue that official policy should always be complete eradication. The World Health Organization (WHO) takes a very strong stand against the medicalization of FGM in any form.
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Aha! I get it. After analysis of the last post, I get that In the 1st time they didnt ban it because they knew the benefits of it and they made it through the Qualified medical team....
The second time, they banned it because of people illiteracy and ignorance not because it's of no use...
Your last post is very informative for me
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Neither the excerpt I posted nor the complete text in the link suggests anything that comes close to your conclusion.
I think you have a serious problem with the English language. That would also explain why you often post links to texts that contradict your arguments instead of confirming them.
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posted
can u explain what's beyond this paragraph you had posted?
quote: originally posted by Dalia that such policies are unsuccessful, and only serve to legitimize and perpetuate genital mutilation. In some cases older female relatives have merely performed another, more severe operation if they feel the procedure has not been carried out adequately.
what did they mean by "policies"?? who carried out this proceduere mentioned in this phrase "the procedure has not been carried out adequately."?? Why??
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Honestly, I don't get it. I mean if one of the arguments displayed here that promotes cutting the clitoris because it causes friction with garnments in "hot" countries, does that mean that friction is not caused by garnments in cold countries?
Logic says, for the sake of conversation, that if any woman has a large clitoris that gets in the way of anything, should be treated individually as a medical case that requires surgery, and looked upon as any other case as such, like removing her apendix or something.
The problem with us, Arabs, that we always read things and deal with them with religious eyes only. We have an incrediable amount of heritage mixed up with traditions, sayings, experiences mingled up with religion beliefs that became a very thick unshakable paste surrounding our senses. We locked ourselves in the past and constantly refusing to accept anything else beside our infamous handed down catalouge. If we want a place in this world, this, for starters, has to change.
Why is it any man's problem what a woman has in her own body? What bothers men so much that a woman, who happens to be a creature with feelings and emotions just like the man, can enjoy sex more or less like the man? Why deny her the right? If religious people boast that Islam is the religion of "Fitra", why is it selective? Why is that considered a taboo? Is it selfishness, control, chauvaunism?
Posts: 657 | From: Cairo | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: can u explain what's beyond this paragraph you had posted?
quote: originally posted by Dalia that such policies are unsuccessful, and only serve to legitimize and perpetuate genital mutilation. In some cases older female relatives have merely performed another, more severe operation if they feel the procedure has not been carried out adequately.
what did they mean by "policies"?? who carried out this proceduere mentioned in this phrase "the procedure has not been carried out adequately."?? Why??
I can explain using an analogy:
Some governments allow the use of torture on suspects in order to extract information/confessions on the condition that the torture is "humane". So after detaining a suspect one police officer tortures him by cutting off his ear and gets no results but he stops because he believed any more would be inhumane. Another police officer walks in and thinks hell, I can cut off his penis to extract information and still be within the bounds of "humane torture".
What amnesty is saying is that there is NO such thing as humane torture and that all forms of torture should be BANNED. They also claim that by encouraging any form of torture those governments in fact facilitated the worst forms of torture because no two people will view "humane" in the same way.
The same applies to FGM (Female Genital Mutilation). So let's say your five years old sister gets Mutilated by a "qualified medical professional" and goes home to your mother who looks at her and thinks "Those doctors didn't have a clue what they were doing, that clitoris is still too large and the labia was not cut at all....idiots!". So she gets out the knife and performs even more Mutilation on your sister.
In that case the blame not only lies with your mother but with the government and those "qualified medical professionals" for allowing any form of Mutilation at all.
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