Until recently, the majority of the world's over one billion Muslims had scarcely heard of female genital cutting (also known as female circumcision and female genital mutilation (FGM)). When the subject began to receive international media attention, many Muslims responded with disgust, easily dismissing any possible connection between this practice and the religion of Islam.
Enhanced awareness of the cultural significance of FGM in some Muslim countries requires a more detailed look at the relationship of FGM to Islam. In July, 1997 the Egyptian government overturned a ban on the practice of FGM. This event was celebrated by some Muslim figures, particularly Sheikh Youssef al-Badri, an outspoken proponent of the circumcision of Muslim women. Later the ban was reinstated, an act celebrated now by feminists and under assault by a few Muslim activists, again, led by Sheikh al-Badri. For the general public, with only limited exposure to Muslims and Islam, the natural conclusion would be that the practice of FGM must somehow be part of the faith, since those who seem to be the most religious are the most ardent supporters. Unfortunately , this simply represents how the sexuality of women is used, under whatever philosophy or world-view, to perpetuate their subjugation.
Female genital cutting is practiced by Muslims and non-Muslims alike residing mainly in Sub-Saharan Africa in countries that include but are not limited to Egypt, Sudan, Somalia, Ethiopia, Kenya and Chad. A more minor form of the procedure is also performed in some parts of the Middle East and South Asia. Degrees of mutilation exist ranging from excision of the hood of the clitoris or clitoris itself to complete infibulation which involves removal of the clitoris, labia minora and labia majora, leaving a small opening for the passage of urine and menstrual blood. As expected, normal sexual intercourse is not possible without a corrective procedure and childbirth frequently involves severe trauma that can result in life-threatening hemorrhage. Other complications include chronic urinary tract and other infections, infertility, psychological trauma, sexual dysfunction, menstrual problems and several other negative medical and emotional outcomes. The procedure is performed on girls between the ages of infancy and pre-adolescence and is either carried out by a physician, midwife or designated woman from the community. Lack of sterile technique, use of the same instruments on more than one child, and lack of anesthesia all contribute to the complication rate which can even include infection with HIV. Medicalizing FGM by performing it in hospitals with appropriate surgical technique will not eliminate all of the complications associated with this practice and therefore cannot legitimately be considered as a solution that reduces the health risks. Current estimates by the World Health Organization state that over 100 million women and girls have been affected by some form of genital cutting.
This practice dates to the time of the pharoahs in Egypt and is perpetuated in a given community for a variety of reasons. When the majority of women have been circumcised, those who are not are considered abnormal by themselves or their families. This has tremendous significance in terms of the desirability of a young woman for marriage which provides a major means for achieving economic strength and independence; thus, being unsuitable for marriage further worsens a woman's ability to prosper. In addition, circumcision is believed to ensure cleanliness, chastity and to minimize the sexual appetite of women and thus reduce the likelihood that they will bring shame on themselves or their families through sexual indiscretions. The guarantee of a young woman's purity further enhances her attractiveness to potential suitors. Religious leaders in many of the communities that practice FGM also support the custom, linking the moral benefits listed above to religion; therefore, a devoted believer who wants to carry out religious duties to her or his utmost is convinced that FGM is associated with righteousness and purity, both valued by all religions, including Islam.
The circumcision of girls, in any form, predated Islam by many centuries. It was practiced in some parts of Arabia at the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and was evidently a custom of the time that may have been a practice of some but not all of the local tribes. As a pre-established tradition, therefore, female circumcision was not introduced by the Prophet to the early Muslim community. Several sayings (hadith) of the Prophet indicate that it may have been the norm for women to be circumcised (see al-Muwatta of Imam Malik) but the extent of circumcision, excision or mutilation is not specified. In addition, the existence of female circumcision in the community does not necessarily mean that it was to be recommended or made obligatory. Indeed, it is possible to argue that any form of female genital cutting actually violates very basic precepts in Islam.
The Qur'an, as a text providing mainly general guidelines (with some injunctions or laws spelled out specifically) does not address the issue of circumcision of either males or females. The Qur'an does however refer to the sexual relationship in marriage as one of mutual satisfaction that is considered a mercy from Allah (swt):
It is lawful for you to go in unto your wives during the night preceding the (day's) fast: they are as a garment for you and you are as a garment for them (2:187)...and He has put love and mercy between you (30:21)
Several sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) highlight the importance of giving and deriving pleasure from intimacy between a husband and wife. This is clear from sayings that informed the community regarding the types of sexual behavior that were considered lawful and from others that addressed the sexual needs of men and women. Clearly, any act that interferes with a fulfilling sexual relationship contradicts the essence of Islam based both on Qur'an and hadith.
In addition, the argument for ensuring chastity with a physically debilitating procedure blatantly violates the premise of individual accountability exemplified in the Qur'an (17:15, see below). Sadly, the notion that honor and shame fall so heavily on the shoulders of the women of any given family is pervasive throughout the Muslim world, including those countries where FGM is not known. As a result of patriarchal influences, a woman's sexuality is something that does not belong to her, but rather is ultimately controlled by the dominant male of her family (father, elder brother, husband, etc.) Yet, again, the Qur'an explicitly tells Muslims that no one can bear the burden of another with respect to sin, dishonor, or shame:
Whoever chooses to follow the right path, follows it but for his own good; and whoever goes astray, goes but astray to his own hurt; and no bearer of burdens shall be made to bear another's burden (17:15)...and if one weighed down by his load calls upon (another) to help him carry it, nothing thereof may be carried (by that other), even if it be one's near of kin (35:18)
Those who advocate for FGM from an Islamic perspective commonly quote the following hadith to argue that it is required as part of the Sunnah or Tradition of the Prophet:
Um Atiyyat al-Ansariyyah said: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (pbuh) said to her: Do not cut too severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.
This is known to be a "weak" hadith in that it does not meet the strict criteria to be considered unquestionable (classified as mursal, i.e. missing a link in the chain of transmitters in that none was among the original Companions of the Prophet.) In addtion, it is found in only one of the six undisputed, authentic hadith collections, that is in the Sunan of Abu Dawud (Chapter 1888). According to Sayyid Sabiq, renowned scholar and author of Fiqh-us-Sunnah, all hadiths concerning female circumcision are non-authentic.
Even if the words attributed to the Prophet were actually spoken by him, an analysis of the text itself reveals that he is making a statement that does not translate into an injunction for circumcision. Interestingly, many leading scholars of the four major Sunni schools of thought considered female circumcision to be at least recommended if not required. Yet we cannot ascertain from the hadith what type of circumcision was being performed or even which body part was being discussed. The scholars later specified in general terms that only a small piece of skin (the clitoris or its hood, presumably, or perhaps part of the labia minora) the size of a "cock's comb" (the small appendage that sits atop the head of a rooster) was to be removed. At the very least then, one can say that infibulation goes far beyond the description given here and so this hadith cannot be used to justify the more severe forms of mutilation. If a Muslim truly believes that female circumcision is part of the Sunnah, she or he wouldn't have enough detailed specifications to know how to carry out the procedure since the terms as mentioned above are so vague.
Despite the opinion of the scholars, female circumcision never became widespread among Muslims around the world and is essentially non-existent among the native inhabitants of Saudi Arabia and many other Muslim countries today. In contrast, male circumcision is universally practiced among Muslims; this is considered the continuation of a practice enjoined upon Abraham and his followers and is explicitly mentioned in several well-known sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
Some proponents of female circumcision argue that removing the clitoral hood (the anatomical equivalent of the foreskin of the penis) can enhance a woman's sexual experience which would not violate her rights to sexual fulfillment. Yet, it is practically impossible when examining the genitals of a young girl (and especially an infant), to distinguish between the hood and the clitoris itself. Also an exposed clitoris that is stimulated due to friction from clothing would result in discomfort and pain and would not necessarily enhance a woman's ability to achieve sexual fulfillment through orgasm.
Islam is a religion that guarantees the integrity of the human being- both in body and in spirit. Female genital cutting violates that integrity, insulting Allah the Creator Whose creation needs no improvement:
Such is He who knows all that is beyond the reach of a created being's perception as well as all that can be witnessed by a creature's senses or mind: the Almighty Dispenser of Grace, Who makes excellent everything He creates (32:6-7)
It is Allah Who has made for you the earth as a resting place and the sky as a canopy, and has given you shape- and made your shapes beautiful - (40:64)
Our Sustainer! Thou hast not created (any of) this in vain (3:191)
And spend in Allah's cause and let not your own hands contribute to your own destruction and persevere in doing good: behold, Allah loves the doers of good (2:195)
Muslims are called upon by Allah (swt) to enjoin the doing of what is right and forbid the doing of what is wrong. Clearly, mutilating a woman's genitalia in the name of Islam violates the most sacred tenets of our faith. Therefore, we must oppose this practice and join efforts with others who are working to educate women and men about its harmful effects. We applaud the work of Muslim leaders who challenge the view that female circumcision is required in Islam. These views have been expressed by Dr. Hassan Hathout, renowned Muslim gynecologist and scholar, and by Mohammed Sayyed Tantawi of Al-Azhar and Sheikh Abdel Ghaffer Mansour. Like many others, they urge the discontinuation of this harmful cultural tradition due to the numerous devastating consequences that result.
The Muslim Women's League strongly supports the work done by organizations and individuals who are from the countries and communities most affected by FGM. To find out more about ongoing efforts, we encourage those interested to begin by visiting the following website on the Internet: FGM Network and Message Board: http://www.fgm.org
any one personaly had exsperience of this being married into a islamic family or frm a certain culture that is not of islamic that has practised this ,if u have dont want public to see this then pm please it will being the strictnes confidence ,i my self had a cousin go through this and this was in india ,grateful some feed back /w/s chimps ..
Posted by ispy (Member # 5871) on :
Female Genital Mutilation in Iraqi Kurdistan
27/03/2006 Wadi e. V. Presentation to the conference: 1ère Journée Humanitaire sur la Santé des Femmes dans le Monde organized by Gynécologie sans Frontières, Paris May 8th 2006
By: Sandra Strobel and Thomas v. der Osten-Sacken, Wadi e. V.
Dear Ladies and Sirs,
First of all, we want to thank you for this invitation giving us the possibility of speaking with you about a widely unknown topic: the existence of Female Genital Mutilation in Iraqi-Kurdistan.
Our NGO is working in Northern Iraq since 1993.
The Kurds have lived decades of war, forced resettlements, mass-murder and Diaspora.
Iraqi-Kurds have experienced decades of political decay, wars, sanctions and economic recession. Iraq, a country rich in natural resources, was systematically destroyed and impoverished. The Ba’ath dictatorship during its three decades of ruling moulded and totally changed Iraq’s society. Consequently only 53% of Kurds has frequented school- this means that they have frequented primary school for about 5 years in the best of all cases- . 34% of Iraqi Kurds are illiterate.
These figures are even higher for women.
Women were one of the first victims of this policy. Due to several reasons they suffered most under political oppression, wars, economic decay.
Additionally they are victims of male violence. Often they are not allowed to freely choose their husband, to travel alone, to work. Sexual harassment and abuse inside families are not openly discussed. Many women suffer under psychological problems up to severe traumata. Abused women are regularly regarded not as victims but as guilty and shameful; women in distress are often classified as mad. Kurdish society is a very patriarchal kind of society. Girls are part of the family’s honour. This is only one of the reasons why Kurdish women and girls are subjected to a strict rule. Many women have never consulted a doctor. Forced marriage, violence of all kinds, honour killing and suicide are quite usual in this region.
Wadi supports various projects for empowerment of women in Northern Iraq.
Iraqi Kurdistan is a quite rural area where a big number of women can’t benefit of medical assistance. This is why we have created female lead mobile teams to mention just one of our various projects - that consist in one female doctor, a nurse and a social worker. These mobile teams visit even very isolated villages and offer medical services to the women. After one year and a half these teams had conquered the faith of the villagers who started to talk about FGM with the team. This is when the team made a horrible discovery: a big part of the women had been mutilated. They questioned about 1544 women and young girls. 907 of theses women and young girls are victims of FGM.
This is why Wadi decided to start a special program against FGM.
FGM is a taboo in Kurdistan. In former times, people never talked about this subject. This painful mutilation is usually done to young girls aged between 4 and 12 years. It is a secret act about which people never talk. There is neither present neither party. Women want to get rid of the ‘haram’ (dirty) organs of the girl the most quickly and secretly as possible.
The fact that its own mother is handing out the girl to the woman that excises the girl is very traumatizing for the girl. Normally a female member of the family, a neighbour or a traditional woman is cutting the girl. Sometimes it is even the proper mother that is cutting the girl.
The operation is done without any kind of anesthetization. As the women committing this act have no medical knowledge, there is no sterility of the instruments used. She cuts the clitoris and sometimes parts of the labia, using a razor or a knife. Then, she covers the bleeding wound with ashes. The girl is sometimes forced to sit onto a bucket filled with icy water. Many girls die or suffer during their whole life of the psychological and medical consequences of FGM. Many of them can never forget this shock situation.
We won?t talk about the medical and psychological consequences of FGM now, because you are doctors and you are very well informed, but we want to insist on the fact that many girls in Iraqi Kurdistan die of bleeding after being mutiliated.
Why do women practise FGM in Iraqi Kurdistan?
Most women justify this act by tradition and religion.
Others confess that they believed that Islam obliges women to practise FGM.
Some women say that they practise FGM because « it has always been like that ». They think that they do something good for the young girls. The clitoris is considered to be a ‘haram’ (dirty) and ugly organ. Lots of women are frightened that they cannot marry find husbands for their girls if they haven’t been cut.
Islam doesn’t transmit us a clear message about FGM. There is a variety of possible interpretations. This is why some Islamic schools say that women are not obliged to practise FGM: But lots of Islamic schools still teach that FGM is an obligation for every Muslim woman. The fact that many rural mullahs in Iraqi Kurdistan tell the Muslim women to practise FGM is one big problem.
But first let us discuss, why suddenly people start to speak out about FGM. Why nobody before was informed about this practise in Iraqi Kurdistan? And is Iraqi Kurdistan an exception within the Middle East? Isn't FGM practised in other Middle Eastern Countries?
To find answers, we should have a closer look on the close connection between freedom and civil liberties in the Middle Eastern countries and the possibility to struggle against FGM and against other kinds of violence against women.
FGM and Freedom
If we look at studies and documentations that have been done about FGM over the last decade, we’d be surprised that none is mentioning the problem of FGM in the so called Masreq Countries, the Arab region east of the Suez channel. Let us pick an example. In spring 2004, the Austrian Foundation for World Population and International Cooperation published a report that gave an overview of countries in this world, where FGM is common. No country of the Mashreq is mentioned - except Yemen ‘ and many people see this country as a kind of bridge between Africa and the Middle East. Moreover, some scholars have asserted that this practice does not exist at all throughout this region. This information was simply wrong. FGM is not limited to the African part of the Arab and Muslim world. It is not an ‘African practice’. True, Egypt, where approximately 90% of all women are mutilated, is an African country; but it is an Arab and Muslim country, too.
The reason why they have been aware of FGM in Egypt and not elsewhere is not that Egypt is in Africa and only there FGM is practiced. The reason that this form of violence against women has been hidden so well is, we believe, a rather different one. Although Egypt cannot be called a democracy it is less autocratic than most of its neighbours. A variety of Civil Society Organizations, Women’s and Human right groups can work there. In dictatorships like Syria or in Saddam’s Iraq even such freedom does not exist. Even worse, these dictatorships sometimes legalized such violence in different forms. In Iraq, for example, so called Honour Killings were legalized in the late 80s.
Things simply looked different in the Kurdish regions of Iraq that were able to free themselves from Saddam´s rule in 1991. Although freedoms were still very limited under the government of the Kurdish parties, slowly some space was created during the 1990a for an embryonic civil society.
If in 1992 a Kurdish official had been asked about forced marriages, honour killings and other forms of violence against women in the Kurdish controlled areas of Northern Iraq, he’d probably denied their existence. However, women’s organizations and other CSO’s started to make facts public. They collected data, opened Women Shelters and lobbied the parliament. And in 2000 honour killings were banned in Kurdistan. Throughout the region a variety of studies were done on honour killings, resulted in shocking findings. This is not because the Kurds are more backward or uncivilized than anyone else in the Middle East (as some Arab nationalist propagate). It is because the Kurds in Iraq have had the freedom to investigate and make the fact known, and even to confront certain taboos. Everything related to sexual discrimination or sexuality still is a huge taboo in almost all Middle Eastern countries.
Programs to combat FGM
It is possible to combat this violence against women. The story of the courageous initiative of local members of various women’s organizations and the local staff of Wadi in Iraqi Kurdistan, who have found out that FGM is practiced and decided to struggle against it, is a hopeful story. In less than two years from their first findings about the practice, they have made this unspoken of taboo, to a public and politically recognized problem- just very recently the first conference on this issue took place in Arbil, the Kurdish capital. This is also a story about how certain freedoms are so closely connected to all the activities to combat violence against women. We?d like to tell you this story briefly: what has been achieved and how, as well as how much more there is to do.
When our teams discovered FGM in Iraqi Kurdistan, every one of us was shocked and paralysed. What can we do against this widespread practise in Iraqi Kurdistan? How can we save the physical and psychological integrity of thousands of young girls?
After they presented these shocking results (and even professionals inside Suleymaniah thought back then this was exaggerated) we started to discuss measures to raise awareness to FGM and at the same time to put some pressure on regional authorities to recognize this problem. The majority of villagers in Germian area is illiterate and has no access to TV or radio. The Germian Regional Program members suggested to produce a locally made educational film and to interview mullahs as well as doctors to show that neither Quran subscribe to Mutilation nor any medical benefit results from this practice.
Luckily a local team of filmmakers was ready to produce such a film and working closely together with the Mobile Teams in Germian they finished a 30 minutes educational film in summer 2005. This film was made possible with the help of a Spanish co-operation partner.
In the meanwhile a Kurdistan-wide research was prepared in c-operation with the Universities of Baghdad, Suleymaniah and Arbil. Unfortunately until now no donors? organisation was found to support this research. The basic idea is to questions about 5% of the female population of Iraqi-Kurdistan in order to get a comprehensive overview about where and how FGM is practiced.
The activists in Kurdistan found important support from a British Journalist who started to extensively write about FGM and spread this news especially in the English speaking media. This helped them a lot and gave them support against various attempts to silence them.
In October 2005 a first Team started to show the film in 20 selected villages in Germian. The success was striking: a lot of women explained they didn?t know before this practise was not obliged by Islam. Especially the Interview with a high rank Mullah shown in this film convinced a lot of women, although some still claim this practice is necessary and right.
With support from the Swiss Caritas this team is now working in Germian region on a regular base.
And in co-operation with the Iraqi Civil Society Program our branch in Arbil started similar activities with this film and did another small research in Arbil-area. Here the rate of mutilated women was even higher.
On Saturday 26th 2006 we held a conference in Arbil that was supported by the same local authorities who before claimed no FGM exists in the region. 90 women participated as well as all the local media. They elected a committee of five doctors and professors, who will propose a new legislation to the Kurdish Parliament in order to ban FGM by law and start a awareness campaign in schools, hospitals and the media.
Thus only after 14 month of activities with a very limited budget and against wide-spread resistance these local activists succeeded: Now officially FGM is recognized as a problem in Iraqi-Kurdistan. This is a first, but very important step, not only for Iraqi-Kurdistan itself, but the whole region.
Just recently a member of a semi-legal Women organization in Syria told us, they do have FGM to, but until now no chance to address it.
With these activities in Iraqi Kurdistan, that were conducted by a courageous group of Kurds ‘both men and women’ it is now known and proofed that FGM is not solely an African problem.
Empowerment of women and the combat against Violence against Women should be at the core of any transformation of dictatorial societies into democracies. Only then an opportunity is opening to help local activists to stand up for such universal values as equality.
It’s up to us to support and consult all those, who are in the middle of this struggle.
They do have a lot of enemies and unluckily only few friends in Europe. We hope after listening to this story they found more here today.
Thank you very much
This paper is the English version of a presentation in French.
I am glad I never encountered this in my large group of friends with arab partners. I do hope our mixed marriage can prevent it. I have always been scared to death going to Egypt. I asked the family doctor, since my family could just not touch the topic with me, and he would just tell me that it is prohibited to medical staff to perform this. Some assurance. I never let my girl out of my eyes when in Egypt.
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
Hey! what's going on here?? are Egyptian people take girls to make circumcision??
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
What about male circumcision??
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
quote: The procedure is performed on girls between the ages of infancy and pre-adolescence and is either carried out by a physician, midwife or designated woman from the community. Lack of sterile technique, use of the same instruments on more than one child, and lack of anesthesia all contribute to the complication rate which can even include infection with HIV.
do they kidnap girls and do that? or what?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
I personally believe it depends on exactly what type of procedure they perform on the girl.
To me, FGM in practice is or was originally no different from MGM (male genital mutilation) that we all know as circumcision.
As long as it's just a 'snip' so to speak, there should be no problems. Unfortunately, as r.i.p.R has pointed out, some of these customs do more than that and the procedures go too far! Complete infibulation (removal of all outer parts) is a severe injury to the human body that leads to serious physical and of course psychological trauma and the long term effects could indeed be devastating-- labor complications, tract infections, sterility.
I understand that some of these cultures believe infibulation prevents sexual promiscuity and ensures a girl's chastity, but it also ensures alot of other aweful and unnecessary things. And overall, I think it's disgusting!
If these cultures want their girls to be chaste all they have to do is teach abstinance, better than making all their females suffer for the rest of their lives!
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
teaching abstinance may be not enough to reach chastity.. If they cut a very very small peace of clitoris, may this help?
Posted by doodlebut (Member # 11649) on :
oh my goodness are you all for real?????? do they really do this in Egypt?????
excuse me while i hurl!!
Posted by Madame M. (Member # 8386) on :
yes they do and it's quite common.
Posted by Demiana (Member # 2710) on :
Lets have another round here. 'It is something from the lower classes, it is outdated, they just give these figures to make Egypt look bad'.
I have seen figures ranging from 70-over 90% for Egypt. This 2003 survey has a high 97% figure for females in the reproductive age.
It is banned in Egypt. I did see the banners with the statement that this is a custom from before the great religions and not in Islam or christianity, medical staff is prohibited to perform it, and yet it seems to go on.
Scary
Posted by Demiana (Member # 2710) on :
It is a regional custom, not confined to Islam. Christians perform this too.
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
to maintain the chastity of females??
Posted by Soghantouta (Member # 11674) on :
To oppress them, rather. To avoid them access pleasure when they are married. Like in some African parts, preteenagers'moms press very strongly their girl's breast to avoid them having big boobs which could attract men... That's really sad.
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
Lets have another round here. 'It is something from the lower classes, it is outdated, they just give these figures to make Egypt look bad'.
I have seen figures ranging from 70-over 90% for Egypt. This 2003 survey has a high 97% figure for females in the reproductive age.
It is banned in Egypt. I did see the banners with the statement that this is a custom from before the great religions and not in Islam or christianity, medical staff is prohibited to perform it, and yet it seems to go on.
Scary
the girl in that link is smiling she may that operation!
I think If there is a need for it such as large clitoris that causes exaggerated arousal, this is a benefit not a bad habbit
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
quote:Originally posted by Soghantouta: To oppress them, rather. To avoid them access pleasure when they are married. Like in some African parts, preteenagers'moms press very strongly their girl's breast to avoid them having big boobs which could attract men... That's really sad.
does that really affect breast size?
Posted by r.i.p.R (Member # 11270) on :
hey come on ok ur getting out of all proportion now u sound like a bunch of P'SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.,I SAY NO ONE HAS ANY RITE TO TAKE OR ALTER A WOMAN OR A GIRL WITH OUT HER CONCENT BUT IF UNDER AGE SHE SHUD NOT AND I SAY SHE NOT BE TOUCHED HERE IF ITS HAPPENING U WUD BE CALLED A ''PDFLE''IF U TOUCH A CHILD OR UR SEXUALLY ABUSING ,IT HAS TO STOP ...
Posted by doodlebut (Member # 11649) on :
why on earth would you want a woman's sexual desire decreased? we don't want it enough as it is! I would think men would want to enlarge it if anything. All it will lead to is more "headaches" from the woman when it's time to get to bed.
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
Ripr, are you addressing me??
For sure, We have to ask girls first. They may like that operation
So... If women want it? Is it ok??
Posted by charm el feikh? (Member # 10243) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org:
So... If women want it? Is it ok??
woman yes. child no.
Posted by newcomer (Member # 1056) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: I think If there is a need for it such as large clitoris that causes exaggerated arousal, this is a benefit not a bad habbit
As men tend to be the ones who get most aroused and cause the most problems due to their sexual arousal, how would you suggest we control their exaggerated arousal? Should this be the recommended method of treatment for all exaggerated sexual arousal, removal of a large sexual organ?
Posted by r.i.p.R (Member # 11270) on :
quote:Originally posted by charm el feikh?: [QUOTE]Originally posted by islamsweden.org:
So... If women want it? Is it ok??
woman yes. child no. [/QUOTE dont beleive it any way not good very sick to do this practice ...beit woman or child id kill if my daughter was felt down there ohhhhhhh i dont want to think about it makes u sick with thinking...
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
What I know?? what i hear?? I 'm not sure that that is right or not.
Women with this large clit. will need at least 10 men to please her lust..so, she will be considered bith not chaste..So, it's advisable to cut off a very very very small peace.
I'm not sure with that. I may be wrong.
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
Wome with large clit is more sensitive to be aroused by 10 times than men
( I dont remeber where i did read that)
Posted by newcomer (Member # 1056) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: What I know?? what i hear?? I 'm not sure that that is right or not.
Women with this large clit. will need at least 10 men to please her lust..so, she will be considered bith not chaste..So, it's advisable to cut off a very very very small peace.
I'm not sure with that. I may be wrong.
I think you'd better check out the source of your facts first islamsweden.org. How many women was this study done on and how did they measure it?
And what about men who say they need 10 women or those that can't control themselves, what do you suggest for them?
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
Ok I will see where i get that, and i will post it here ISA
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
Found that and searching for others
The secretions of the labia minora accumulate in uncircumcised women and turn rancid, so they develop an unpleasant odour which may lead to infections of the vagina or urethra. I have seen many cases of sickness caused by the lack of circumcision.
Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the clitoris which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse.
Another benefit of circumcision is that it prevents stimulation of the clitoris which makes it grow large in such a manner that it causes pain.
Circumcision prevents spasms of the clitoris which are a kind of inflammation.
Circumcision reduces excessive sexual desire.
Posted by newcomer (Member # 1056) on :
Please do, and also get the equivalent study on how to control exaggerated male sexual arousal.
If I remember correctly more crimes of rape and sexual harrassment are caused by men. Are they committed cirumcised men usually or not (of course that study would have to be a comparative one within specific countries, due to the global imbalance of circumcised males)? Has any one actually done a study on that yet? And if male circumcision can reduce the chances of contracting AIDS, what would the benefits be of male castration (the male equivalent of female genital mutilation) be?
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
Of course what i meant by circucision isnt what people nowadys do.. Dont misunderstand me!
Posted by newcomer (Member # 1056) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Found that and searching for others
The secretions of the labia minora accumulate in uncircumcised women and turn rancid, so they develop an unpleasant odour which may lead to infections of the vagina or urethra. I have seen many cases of sickness caused by the lack of circumcision.
Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the clitoris which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse.
Another benefit of circumcision is that it prevents stimulation of the clitoris which makes it grow large in such a manner that it causes pain.
Circumcision prevents spasms of the clitoris which are a kind of inflammation.
Circumcision reduces excessive sexual desire.
Who wrote that garbage? Please give your reference.
Infection comes from infibulation far more often than from lack of circumcision!!! If women wash themselves they don't get infections from vaginal secretions whether circumcised or not!
So you say women have to get circumcised because if they get aroused it annoys the husband
The pain and the spasms are part of the female orgasm...take that away and you will find men complaining! And they also complain about their circumcised wives as they say that they have no sexual desire at all.
Seems that the men complain no matter what!
I don't see anywhere in all that, how the woman will benefit from it!
Posted by r.i.p.R (Member # 11270) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: What I know?? what i hear?? I 'm not sure that that is right or not.
Women with this large clit. will need at least 10 men to please her lust..so, she will be considered bith not chaste..So, it's advisable to cut off a very very very small peace.
I'm not sure with that. I may be wrong.
ur swedish says alot
Posted by geezer (Member # 6244) on :
quote:Originally posted by newcomer: Who wrote that garbage? Please give your reference.
I see its quoted from from an article by Dr. Haamid al-Ghawaabi in Liwa’ al-Islam magazine, issue 8 and 10; article entitled Khitaan al-Banaat (circumcision of girls), which all goes to show that you have to be selective about which references you take from where. Posted by Demiana (Member # 2710) on :
When in Egypt one might be surrounded with rhetoric justifying this since a lot of people are guilty of condoning or executing or offering their girls to have it done if the figures are that high. I heard doctors would do it and have 'medical' excuses they get away with. It is a lifestyle still to a lot of common people. I wonder what is needed for people to let it stop. As we proceed as a people we did let go of barbaric acts (mmm...and found new ones instead too).
Posted by Demiana (Member # 2710) on :
What does it take to trust my SIL and/or MIL with my daughter? Can't take the risk now.
Posted by geezer (Member # 6244) on :
quote:Originally posted by Demiana: What does it take to trust my SIL and/or MIL with my daughter? Can't take the risk now.
Have they expressed interest in having your daughter circumcized? Posted by Demiana (Member # 2710) on :
Just silence. And then my dh came to tell me all this lines about it being backwarded, from 30 years ago, countryside whatever. But it is the women that perform this. I have a hard time trusting them on this since they want speak to me about this and the figures are this high. After some years of asking, writing letters, I just gave up. At least they know where I stand on this.
Posted by geezer (Member # 6244) on :
quote:Originally posted by Demiana: Just silence. And then my dh came to tell me all this lines about it being backwarded, from 30 years ago, countryside whatever. But it is the women that perform this. I have a hard time trusting them on this since they want speak to me about this and the figures are this high. After some years of asking, writing letters, I just gave up. At least they know where I stand on this.
I'm sorry. If you can't get a straight answer out of them about this, then I totally agree with you, keep your daughter under your eye at all times.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Found that and searching for others
The secretions of the labia minora accumulate in uncircumcised women and turn rancid, so they develop an unpleasant odour which may lead to infections of the vagina or urethra. I have seen many cases of sickness caused by the lack of circumcision.
Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the clitoris which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse.
Another benefit of circumcision is that it prevents stimulation of the clitoris which makes it grow large in such a manner that it causes pain.
Circumcision prevents spasms of the clitoris which are a kind of inflammation.
Circumcision reduces excessive sexual desire.
I'm familiar with this text and "garbage" does not even come close to how I would describe it. Islamsweden, I suggest you check out the discussion in the link I posted and also do some research on human rights or Islamic websites that have articles about the subject. But please, PLEASE educate yourself on such an important subject instead of uncritically accepting and further promoting stuff that's scientifically and morally wrong.
You don't seem to know much about the subject in general and you obviously don't know much at all about women's physique. Please do some research on that before you make statements like "a little cutting can't do harm if the sheikhs say it's ok." And please don't believe those ridiculous fairytales about women's desires going wild and women who need sex all the time or ten men to satisfy their lust and stuff like that ...
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Found that and searching for others
The secretions of the labia minora accumulate in uncircumcised women and turn rancid, so they develop an unpleasant odour which may lead to infections of the vagina or urethra. I have seen many cases of sickness caused by the lack of circumcision.
Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the clitoris which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse.
Another benefit of circumcision is that it prevents stimulation of the clitoris which makes it grow large in such a manner that it causes pain.
Circumcision prevents spasms of the clitoris which are a kind of inflammation.
Circumcision reduces excessive sexual desire.
I'm familiar with this text and "garbage" does not even come close to how I would describe it. Islamsweden, I suggest you check out the discussion in the link I posted and also do some research on human rights or Islamic websites that have articles about the subject. But please, PLEASE educate yourself on such an important subject instead of uncritically accepting and further promoting stuff that's scientifically and morally wrong.
You don't seem to know much about the subject in general and you obviously don't know much at all about women's physique. Please do some research on that before you make statements like "a little cutting can't do harm if the sheikhs say it's ok." And please don't believe those ridiculous fairytales about women's desires going wild and women who need sex all the time or ten men to satisfy their lust and stuff like that ...
Hey, Dlaia Calm On. I may hear wrong informtion and I say that. But I'm talking about those women who have larger clit more than normal.. Most of women dont have this large size. So, this operation doesnt concern lots of women...
Posted by bibo1978 (Member # 9287) on :
quote:Originally posted by Madame M.: yes they do and it's quite common.
Not in all societies is a pop-culture, secular society and middle class don't do this
Posted by Demiana (Member # 2710) on :
A humble 3% will refrain
Posted by Snapdragon (Member # 9036) on :
You are an idiot for even thinking such a thing and you don't know jack sh*t about women!
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: What I know?? what i hear?? I 'm not sure that that is right or not.
Women with this large clit. will need at least 10 men to please her lust..so, she will be considered bith not chaste..So, it's advisable to cut off a very very very small peace.
I'm not sure with that. I may be wrong.
Posted by Snapdragon (Member # 9036) on :
A website about Islam does not make the practice right or humane. It is clearly disgusting and the men are the ones who need to be controlled, not the women. Another backwards tradition throughout the uncivilized Middle East and Africa.
You can't walk anywhere in the Middle East without getting either stared at, whistled or even touched. What happened to the "lower your gaze" crap?????? If they can't keep from the whistling and the harrassment, how can they even begin to lower their gaze?
quote:Originally posted by geezer:
quote:Originally posted by newcomer: Who wrote that garbage? Please give your reference.
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: What I know?? what i hear?? I 'm not sure that that is right or not.
Women with this large clit. will need at least 10 men to please her lust..so, she will be considered bith not chaste..So, it's advisable to cut off a very very very small peace.
I'm not sure with that. I may be wrong.
what alot of rubbish!!!! man you need your head sorting. please educate yourself before posting stupid rubbish like this and you are trying to do duwa!!!what a jock!!!
Posted by kung fu monkey (Member # 11608) on :
June 4, 2006 --> Female circumcision heightens childbirth risks -WHO
By Laura MacInnis GENEVA, June 2 (Reuters) - Female circumcision, performed on as many as 3 million girls each year, complicates childbirth later in life and causes higher mortality among their babies, the World Health Organisation (WHO) said on Friday. In a new report, the United Nations agency said women who had undergone the practice, also known as female genital mutilation, were up to 70 percent more vulnerable to potentially fatal haemorrhage after delivery than those who had not. Its study, involving some 28,000 women at obstetric centres in six African countries where the practice is common, said babies born to circumcised women were as much as 55 percent more likely to die during or immediately after childbirth. "We have, for the first time, evidence that deliveries among women who have been subject to female genital mutilation are significantly more likely to be complicated and dangerous," said Joy Phumaphi, WHO assistant director-general for family and community health. Up to 20 out of every 1,000 babies born in Africa die as a direct result of their mothers' circumcision, the WHO said. About 100 million women worldwide are estimated to have undergone genital mutilation, which can involve cutting away the clitoris and external genitalia and stitching the vaginal opening in order to reduce women's sexual appetite. The WHO said relatively inelastic scar tissue formed around the wounds could cause obstruction and prolonged labour "which increases the risk of caesarean section, heavy bleeding, distress in the infant and stillbirth". The degree of complications increased according to the extent and severity of the procedure. While predominant in 28 African countries, including Sudan, Chad, Sierra Leone and Djibouti, female circumcision also takes place in some areas of the Middle East and Asia and among immigrant communities in Europe and North America. Girls generally undergo the rite before the age of 10, often without anaesthesia and in unsanitary conditions where they are exposed to dangerous infections including HIV. Phumaphi said the WHO strongly opposed having doctors perform female genital mutilations to ensure they took place in a clean or safe setting. Recommending that health professionals be involved in female circumcision would be endorsing an unacceptable practice, she said. "That is the worst possible thing we can do. It is worse than turning a blind eye." Many African nations have legislated against female genital mutilation but few are enforcing the rules, Berhane Ras-Work of the Inter-African Committee for Traditional Practices said. Citing Senegal and Burkina Faso as exceptions, she said most countries in Africa were doing little to stop the widely decried practice meant to ensure girls stay chaste before marriage and remain loyal to their husbands. In some areas, female circumcision is also seen as a means to initiate girls into womanhood or improve hygiene. While some consider the rite a requirement under the Muslim faith, the WHO denied this, saying the practice predated Islam.
I think people here should learn to criticize other people politely.
My opinion was about those women who have larger clit more than normal...
it's not my fault that people are stupid and not understanding.. It will be better to try to understand my point.
Posted by geezer (Member # 6244) on :
quote:Originally posted by Snapdragon: A website about Islam does not make the practice right or humane. It is clearly disgusting and the men are the ones who need to be controlled, not the women. Another backwards tradition throughout the uncivilized Middle East and Africa.
You can't walk anywhere in the Middle East without getting either stared at, whistled or even touched. What happened to the "lower your gaze" crap?????? If they can't keep from the whistling and the harrassment, how can they even begin to lower their gaze?
quote:Originally posted by geezer:
quote:Originally posted by newcomer: Who wrote that garbage? Please give your reference.
OK, chill. I don't agree with it either. newcomer asked where it was from, and I gave the source. I don't like Islam-qa.com in the first place - thought the answer was typical for them. Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
Have women the right to insult others???
women are calling for their rights. then, i see that they are insulting others.....
I dont respect women who see that their rights is to insult other people.
Posted by kung fu monkey (Member # 11608) on :
quote:Originally posted by Demiana: When in Egypt one might be surrounded with rhetoric justifying this since a lot of people are guilty of condoning or executing or offering their girls to have it done if the figures are that high. I heard doctors would do it and have 'medical' excuses they get away with. It is a lifestyle still to a lot of common people. I wonder what is needed for people to let it stop. As we proceed as a people we did let go of barbaric acts (mmm...and found new ones instead too).
They believe no man would want a woman that was not circumcised, so that they believe they are helping the girl. They do it despite the laws. The few parents that don't want their daughter circumcised have to be constantly alert, and have to threaten to prosecute anyone who would circumcise their daughter. Even these parents often give in to the cultural pressures. They have a lot of years to be watchful over, since female circumcision is done at most any age, in fact is redone after childbirth and when a woman's husband dies.
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
quote:Originally posted by Snapdragon: You are an idiot for even thinking such a thing and you don't know jack sh*t about women!
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: What I know?? what i hear?? I 'm not sure that that is right or not.
Women with this large clit. will need at least 10 men to please her lust..so, she will be considered bith not chaste..So, it's advisable to cut off a very very very small peace.
I'm not sure with that. I may be wrong.
Describing others as idiot is not your right.. I'm free to think whatever i want to. it's non of your business..
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
So, people want to put restrcictions to my mind.
Women want to control men not to call for their rights..This is what i deduce.
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
Risks of uncommon large clitoris
The birth of hydrocephalic babies. Poisoning of the mothers milk. Bad genital odors. Vaginal cancer. Masturbation. Homosexuality. Adult nervousness. Neurosis due to excessive sex drive.
If that occurs to women , It will be your responsibiliy..
Posted by charm el feikh? (Member # 10243) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Snapdragon: [qb] You are an idiot for even thinking such a thing
[QUOTE]Originally posted by islamsweden.org: [qb] Describing others as idiot is not your right.. I'm free to think whatever i want to. it's non of your business..
why are you free to think whatever YOU like... yet snapdragon has no right to think whatever SHE likes.
you are free to think what you like about clits and she is free to think you are an idiot.
this is a forum, you have made it her business.
personally i usually find your posts enlightening, i totally disagree with this though.
how big is your penis? is it bigger than your friends? it must be bigger than someones... does that mean you might become homosexual? should we not hold you down and cut a tiny bit off?
come on now.
Posted by charm el feikh? (Member # 10243) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Risks of uncommon large clitoris
The birth of hydrocephalic babies. Poisoning of the mothers milk. Bad genital odors. Vaginal cancer. Masturbation. Homosexuality. Adult nervousness. Neurosis due to excessive sex drive.
If that occurs to women , It will be your responsibiliy..
where did you get this from?
the FGM fanatics weekly?
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
You see that everyone has the right to insult others??
Clit is totally different than penis.
Posted by charm el feikh? (Member # 10243) on :
there are many ways to insult someone. you feel insulted at being called an idiot. do you not think perhaps you are insulting others with what you are saying?
why is it different? ok, so we will just cut off the sensitive bit... please, i cant cope with the responsibility of you masturbating.
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
quote:Originally posted by charm el feikh?:
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Risks of uncommon large clitoris
The birth of hydrocephalic babies. Poisoning of the mothers milk. Bad genital odors. Vaginal cancer. Masturbation. Homosexuality. Adult nervousness. Neurosis due to excessive sex drive.
If that occurs to women , It will be your responsibiliy..
where did you get this from?
the FGM fanatics weekly?
Again , My opinion may bear some mistakes. and Every one has a probablity to make a mistake. But, In the same time, None has the right to insult people.
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
quote:Originally posted by charm el feikh?: there are many ways to insult someone. you feel insulted at being called an idiot. do you not think perhaps you are insulting others with what you are saying?
why is it different? ok, so we will just cut off the sensitive bit... please, i cant cope with the responsibility of you masturbating.
I didnt say to cut off all the clit.. I said a very very very small portion to protect from illnesses
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
this is for women who 1-need that operation 2-accept it ( for sure we cant force her)
men genitalia is totally different than women. you cant compare that with men.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Risks of uncommon large clitoris
The birth of hydrocephalic babies. Poisoning of the mothers milk. Bad genital odors. Vaginal cancer. Masturbation. Homosexuality. Adult nervousness. Neurosis due to excessive sex drive.
You forgot:
The death of any husband whose penis contacts a clitoris.
I find it hard to believe a person who claims to have a medical background would even consider thinking about something as nonsensical as this list.
Again - please educate yourself before further spreading stuff like this. You are very obviously lacking knowledge about the human body and how it functions.
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
Dalia,didnt you say that you r busy these days??
Well, I dont believe in these myths but I compare that with what i studied. I like science and scietific facts.. I dont add these words withou understanding them all..
I dont say that every female needs this operation.. I see that there is a need for it in some cases...
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
So the physicain is the one who decide if she need it or not.. I heard lots cases need that.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Dalia,didnt you say that you r busy these days??
Well, excuse me, sir.
Yes, I'm very busy. But I'm a fast reader and writer and I do need to disrupt my work sometimes to clear my head. So I'm able to throw a comment in here and there, but I'm not able to follow complicated discussions or think up arguments when I know there's lots of work to finish.
It's probably my female brain ... Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
a super-women brain , isnt it? Posted by sara_uk (Member # 11454) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Dalia,didnt you say that you r busy these days??
Well, excuse me, sir.
It's probably my female brain ...
lol dalia and who would know better about our brain than islamsweden!! Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
by the way, I think people are misunderstanding me altogether..
I mean "Clitoridotomy" and not "Clitoridectomy" and of course not "Infibulation"
If you understand the differnce , you will see that i'm right.
And i'm ready in shaa Allah for any inquiries about that.
Posted by charm el feikh? (Member # 10243) on :
em... the link you posted starts with this line....
"Female genital cutting (FGC) refers to amputation of any part of the female genitalia for cultural rather than medical reasons."
but no doubt any minute now i will see that youre right!
Posted by Snapdragon (Member # 9036) on :
You either:
A. Have a small penis and feel inadequate B. Can't find a wife because of the samll penis C. Don't know how the penis works D. Are a fanatical muslim who thinks that FGM should be done by the age of 2 on all females because they "might" arouse you E. Wouldn't know how to satisfy a women and that is why you are heavily defending FGM F. All of the Above
I choose F!
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org:
Describing others as idiot is not your right.. I'm free to think whatever i want to. it's non of your business.. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Posted by Snapdragon (Member # 9036) on :
Indeed you are right about this. Men can only think with their genitals!
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: men genitalia is totally different than women. you cant compare that with men. [/QB]
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
Here's a list of the health risks of an uncommonly large penis:
The birth of hydrocephalic babies Prostate cancer Poisoning of sperm Bad genital odors Masturbation. Homosexuality Adult nervousness Neurosis due to excessive sex drive Death of a wife who gets touched by that penis
Surgically reducing the penis size is the only way to avoid those problems. Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
Dalia, Actually i didnt expect you to post this. I respect your brain and get into informative conversation with your intelligent mind. then you let me down.
Snapdragon, If you see that it's your right to insult people, then I wont blame you, go on. But, According to my principles, i wont reply to your insults.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Found that and searching for others
The secretions of the labia minora accumulate in uncircumcised women and turn rancid, so they develop an unpleasant odour which may lead to infections of the vagina or urethra. I have seen many cases of sickness caused by the lack of circumcision.
Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the clitoris which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse.
Another benefit of circumcision is that it prevents stimulation of the clitoris which makes it grow large in such a manner that it causes pain.
Circumcision prevents spasms of the clitoris which are a kind of inflammation.
Circumcision reduces excessive sexual desire.
well I do read a lot of twaddle on this site but this beats the lot!!
GOD MADE US PERFECT, SO WHO THE HELL ARE WE TO CHANGE IT? or do you think He made a mistake????? use your brains and stop asking these so called knowledgable Islamic sites who seem to have been in an non-educational bubble!
sorry, but what a load of rot, only a MAN could come up with this. Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
I know your lack of information in that issue. No wonder, Egyptian people causes lots of mistakes against human being when they didnt understand The religion.
So it's a must to understand the diffrence among Clitoridotomy" ,"Clitoridectomy" and "Infibulation"
Muslims want to quit Sunnah because they dont understand it and when one try to explain it to their mind, they dont respect his human right to have respect.
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
Again and again and i will repeat it for 1000 times if i can. Seeking knowledge is supposed to be obligatory upon muslims, it's not a shame that i ask and come sure about an issue i dont understand. Women in the age of prophet Muhammed was asking about lots of female stuff. It's not a shame to ask but it's a shame not to ask.
Now, I think i cant blame non-muslims to insult me when talking about this issue because they have an excuse now.
So I must say i'm sorry to the following Charm el Feikh? Snapdragon Dalia*
I excuse you because if lots of muslims lack this knowldge, how can i blame you??
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
I don't understand this post of yours at all. What's this stuff about seeking knowledge???
Islamsweden, it is crystal clear to everyone reading this thread that you know nothing about the subject. Your initial questions and posts made that very obvious. I find it very strange that you're now lecturing us on lacking knowledge since it's very obvious that you have done anything but extensive research on this subject. Rather it looks like you've browsed a few sites the last couple of days and picked up a few obnoxious things that you've quoted here and presented as facts - without any backup, I might add. You also posted a lot of outrageously ridiculous stuff that, according to yourself, you've "heard somewhere". You even change your opinion from post to post as we can see in the last part of the quote below.
Several people have addressed very valid questions to you regarding the sources, the validity, the logic and the consequences of the "facts" you present here. You have ignored all of those. Yet you're suggesting you know better than everyone else.
Do you call this a comprehensive approach to seeking knowledge?!?
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: I think If there is a need for it such as large clitoris that causes exaggerated arousal, this is a benefit
...
Women with this large clit. will need at least 10 men to please her lust..so, she will be considered bith not chaste..So, it's advisable to cut off a very very very small peace. ...
Wome with large clit is more sensitive to be aroused by 10 times than men
( I dont remeber where i did read that)
...
teaching abstinance may be not enough to reach chastity.. If they cut a very very small peace of clitoris, may this help?
...
I said a very very very small portion to protect from illnesses
...
Most of women dont have this large size. So, this operation doesnt concern lots of women...
I dont say that every female needs this operation.. I see that there is a need for it in some cases...
So the physicain is the one who decide if she need it or not.. I heard lots cases need that.
I seriously doubt that there's such a thing as an "uncommonly large" clitoris that requires any kind of surgical manipulation. These ideas seem to stem from ignorance about female bodies and sexuality as well as from a deep fear of the latter. I have never heard of this as a common medical problem; in fact the only times I've read about this weird theory has been in texts that try to promote female circumcision.
And who decides what's "uncommonly large"? What exactly is that supposed to mean? I haven't heard of any charts or guidelines that determine which size a sexual organ has to be. We are all different in our size, our physical attributes and such, how can you say what is "normal" and what is not? And what gives us the right to manipulate what God has given us??? The last time I checked this was supposed to be a sin. (4:119-121)
In some African countries those myths are still perpetuated and spread. Women are told that if they aren't circumcized their clitoris will continue growing until it will be obscenely large. They are threatened that this will be horrible and disgusting, that they will get sick and no man will ever want them ... and the women don't know any better, so of course they believe this, and continue this horrible practice ... All these ideas seem to stem from the same sort of thinking / ideology. Believing and further spreading those tales is not only stupid but also dangerous.
Secondly, it is a MYTH that the size of a person's sexual organs has an influence on their libido and conduct. Thus it's complete and utter nonsense to suggest that manipulating the size of a person's genital will have an effect on that. And this makes some of the arguments I've read on here completely obsolete!
" ... Islamic teachings decisively reject all social beliefs that lead the society to practicing female circumcision.
People claiming that women have neither reason nor will and those saying that women's desire for sex exceeds that of men 25-fold, do not offer even one evidence, be it built on legal text, reason, or a scientific fact, to support their claims which clearly contradict the Islamic teachings and principles. The Prophet (PBUH) says, "Women are equals to men." Such a Prophetic text refutes all these claims.
Because the woman is equal to the man in having feelings, desire, reason, and conscience, she, thus, can keep religious teachings, respect her body, and maintain her chastity, a thing which makes her grow upright and righteous in all her affairs. Some say that circumcision is to regulate and control woman's desire for sex. However, such a saying comes contradictory to the scientific fact that woman's desire for sex emanates from the brain and not sexual organs. It goes without saying that the sexual behavior of the man or the woman, be right or not, is determined according to the brain which gives instructions to the organs of the body. It means that the body serves and obeys the brain in all instinctive human desires such as those of food, sleep, and sex. In other words, the sexual organs have nothing to do in determining the sexual desire or conduct. Therefore, female circumcision does not, from the scientific point of view, help regulate or control the sexual desire or conduct of the woman. The sexual desire and conduct of the circumcised and uncircumcised woman are dependent on morals, education, and the family among whom she lives. In fact, disorder occurs when the woman comes to be deprived of some natural functions as a result of removing some of her natural organs responsible for performing such functions.
Chastity, decency, and purity are Islamic virtues required from both the man and woman equally. Bringing up on righteous morals and purifying the souls with religion and piety constitute the effective and real restraint for the man and woman alike. ..."
I strongly recommend you read the article in the link since it offers some very good explanations including lots of references from Qur'an and Sunnah.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
...
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: sorry, but what a load of rot, only a MAN could come up with this.
Hi Ayisha, are you suffering withdrawal from religious discussions? Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
Sorry to say Dalia, Even some scholars From Azhar dont understand it correctly and try to ignore the verse.
anyway, I'm too lazy to reply to lots of your posts. we already have about 3 threads open. Can u focus on your points?? I dont need to read all these to get your point. Just sum up to save my efforts. I want to make an informative dialogue with you and may be I can benefit from your points.
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
My earlier posts are for something in my mind. I just was trying to know something about people knowldge in this issue. I was shocked when i find lots of people dont understand it.
Btw, Dalia, Do you mind if i open a thread to ask you some Questions about Your beliefs? I really want to know lots of your own opinions about some issues.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: sorry, but what a load of rot, only a MAN could come up with this.
Hi Ayisha, are you suffering withdrawal from religious discussions?
Hi Dalia, It gets a bit dizzy going round in circles Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
In female human anatomy, the clitoral hood, (also called prepuce), is a fold of skin that surrounds and protects the clitoral glans. It develops as part of the labia minora and is homologous with the foreskin (equally called prepuce) in male genitals.
In many cases the clitoral hood completely covers the glansThis is a protective hood of skin that covers the clitoris. There is no standard size or shape for the hood. Some women have large clitoral hoods that completely cover the tip of the clitoris. Some of these can be retracted to expose the clitoral head, others do not retract. Other women have smaller hoods that do not cover the full length of the clitoris, leaving the head exposed all the time. As in the male, sticky bands of tissue called adhesions can form between the hood and the head, these stick the hood onto the head so the hood cannot be pulled back to expose the head.
It is increasingly common to have the hood pierced and a ring inserted in a similar way to an ear piercing.
quote:Though much less common, other women opt to have the hood surgically trimmed or removed so as to permanently expose part or all of the clitoral head. Such a procedure is very much like male circumcision but should not be confused with more extensive forms of female circumcision which is a more radical and extensive amputation of parts of the genitals, usually including the clitoral head.
quote: Women with larger hoods can often masturbate by working the hood to and fro over the head of their clitoris. Women with more compact structures tend to rub the clitoris and hood together as one item. Sometimes the glans clitoris is too sensitive to be rubbed with the hood fully pulled back.
quote: please educate yourself before further spreading stuff like this. You are very obviously lacking knowledge about the human body and how it functions.
First, let me say say I cant expect someone can say to, a someone ben studying Pharmacy and human body for 7 years, "you don't know anything about human body".
Second, I cant imagine that lots of muslims who have believe in the teachings of prophet muhammed and all prophets ( prophets jesus, prophet Mises prophet Abrahem.. etc.) misunderstand lots of stuff concerning their life.
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
another one, i'll not get bored educating ignorant people who are so proud to say that they arent.
Clitoridotomy "Clitoridotomy" (which is also called "hoodectomy" as a slang term) involves the removal or splitting of the clitoral hood. The United Nations Population Fund states that this is comparable to male circumcision.[1] In the United States and other Western countries, clitoridotomy is usually performed on adult women rather than on children. It is also known as Sunna circumcision (named after the Arabic word for anything approved by Islamic law and centred in Islamic tradition). However some Muslim clergy oppose all forms of FGC. [2]
Sami A. Aldeeb Abu-Sahlieh, author of 'To Mutilate in the Name of Jehovah or Allah: Legitimization of Male and Female Circumcision' states that: "The most often mentioned narration reports a debate between Prophet Mohammed and Um Habibah (or Um 'Atiyyah). This woman, known as an exciser of female slaves, was one of a group of women who had immigrated with Mohammed. Having seen her, Prophet Mohammed asked her if she kept practicing her profession. She answered affirmatively adding: 'unless it is forbidden and you order me to stop doing it'. Prophet Mohammed replied: 'Yes, it is allowed. Come closer so I can teach you: if you cut, do not overdo it (la tanhaki), because it brings more radiance to the face (ashraq) and it is more pleasant (ahza) for the husband'. According to others, he said: 'Cut slightly and do not overdo it (ashimmi wa-la tanhaki), because it is more pleasant (ahza) for the woman and better (ahab, from other sources abha) for the husband'."
Type I circumcision is defined by the World Health Organisation as clitoridotomy and perhaps excision of part or all of the clitoris (clitoridectomy; see following section). However, some authors (e.g.., Cohen) define type I as at least partial removal of the clitoris.
From the late 19th century until the 1950s, it and other more invasive procedures, including excision of the clitoris and infibulation were practiced in Western countries to control female sexuality, and were advocated in the United States by groups like the Orificial Surgery Society until 1925. Doctors advocating or performing these procedures claimed that girls of all ages would otherwise engage in more masturbation and be "polluted" by the activity, which was referred to as "self-abuse" [3].
Through the 1950s, some doctors continued to advocate clitoridotomy for hygienic reasons or to reduce masturbation. For example, C.F. McDonald wrote in a 1958 paper titled Circumcision of the Female [4],[5], "If the male needs circumcision for cleanliness and hygiene, why not the female? I have operated on perhaps 40 patients who needed this attention." The author describes symptoms as "irritation, scratching, irritability, masturbation, frequency and urgency," and in adults, smegmaliths causing "dyspareunia and frigidity." The author then reported that a two-year old was no longer masturbating so frequently after the procedure. Of adult women, the author stated that "for the first time in their lives, sex ambition became normally satisfied." In the U.S., the last documented clitoridotomy to reduce sexual activity occurred in 1958. The procedure was performed on a 5-year-old girl, reportedly to stop her from masturbating. Justification of the procedure on hygienic grounds, or to reduce masturbation, has since declined. The view that masturbation is a cause of mental and physical illness has dissipated since the mid-20th century [6].
A few doctors and others advocate clitoridotomy of adults, promoting it as a way of increasing sexual sensitivity and sexual pleasure. One claim is that a large clitoral hood may make stimulation of the clitoris difficult. Websites promoting the practice Circlist, bmezine and The Clitoral Hood Removal Information Page contain testimonials and two of them provide summaries of medical studies, including several finding that the majority of women reported improved sensation following the procedure (for example, 87.5% in Rathmann's 1959 study, and 75% in Knowles', as quoted in the summary of studies mentioned previously). However, this improved sensation does not last as the clitoris grows hard and less sensitive, much like when a male is circumcised.
Why do so many women have difficulty reaching orgasm? A new study suggests that, for some, an anatomical disorder may be to blame. Researchers at Boston University School of Medicine report that roughly one quarter of the women they have treated for sexual dysfunction have clitoral phimosis, which means the hood of skin surrounding their clitoris is too tight or there is no opening in the skin for the glans of the clitoris to protrude for stimulation. The scientists, who were led by Irwin Goldstein, presented their findings at the Female Sexual Function Forum, a four-day meeting in Boston of physicians and therapists that ended Sunday.
The analysis was based on photographs taken of the vulvas of roughly 200 women who have been evaluated at Boston University's Woman's Sexual Health Clinic since its opening in 1998. The photos were made during examinations in which a physician placed a finger on either side of each woman's clitoris to retract the clitoral hood. Goldstein and his co-workers found that women with the highest degrees of phimosis were the most likely to report problems experiencing orgasm. Clitoral phimosis is roughly equivalent to an uncircumcised man with an extremely tight foreskin. Such men often cannot achieve an erection because it is painful; the condition is easily remedied by circumcision or surgical loosening of the foreskin. There is no standard treatment for clitoral phimosis, although some women have undergone surgery to increase the exposure of the clitoral glans.
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Goldstein speculates that many women with clitoral phimosis are never diagnosed because gynecologists generally avoid the clitoris during routine pelvic examinations. He says more research will be needed to determine the overall incidence of clitoral phimosis and the degree to which it underlies female sexual dysfunction. More than 40 percent of women (and 30 percent of men) in the U.S. experience some form of sexual problem, according to a study published last year in the Journal of the American Medical Association. --Carol Ezzell
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Now, I think i cant blame non-muslims to insult me So I must say i'm sorry to the following Charm el Feikh?
I excuse you
excuse me?
i insulted you?
if i did i apologize. i scrolled back and double checked... i was perhaps a little sarcastic, but i dont see how you you could have felt insulted by me.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Sorry to say Dalia, Even some scholars From Azhar dont understand it correctly and try to ignore the verse.
Which verse are they ignoring?????? I don't understand what you're trying to say since I assume you have not read the text.
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Can u focus on your points?? I dont need to read all these to get your point. Just sum up to save my efforts.
Two pages into this thread and you haven't understood what my points are?!
OK ... my points summed up for those too lazy to read anything that exceeds ten lines:
- There is no such thing as an "uncommonly large clitoris" that needs to be surgically manipulated.
- The size of a woman's genital does not cause any of the supposed "illnesses" or "symptoms" you mentioned in your earlier posts. Those are complete and utter BOGUS.
- The size of a human being's sexual organs has nothing whatsoever to do with her / his libido or conduct, that's a simple scientific fact.
- Any kind of cutting is a crime and a serious human rights violation. Islamically speaking it's a sin.
I think I've said everything there is to say on the subject here and on the other thread, so I will leave this discussion now ... have fun further on. And maybe if you have time you can reflect on the following verse:
"And I will misguide them and make them desire, and I will command them, so that they will mark the ears of the livestock, and I will command them so they will make change to God's creation." Whoever takes the devil as a supporter other than God, then he has indeed lost a great loss.
He promises them and makes them desire, but what the devil promises them is only vanity.
For these, their abode shall be Hell, they will find no escape from it. (4:119-121)
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
Charm el Feikh?, Dont worry. I respect you and your way.
Dalia, did u read this in my earlier post?
quote: In many cases the clitoral hood completely covers the glansThis is a protective hood of skin that covers the clitoris. There is no standard size or shape for the hood. Some women have large clitoral hoods that completely cover the tip of the clitoris. Some of these can be retracted to expose the clitoral head, others do not retract. Other women have smaller hoods that do not cover the full length of the clitoris
quote:"And I will misguide them and make them desire, and I will command them, so that they will mark the ears of the livestock, and I will command them so they will make change to God's creation." Whoever takes the devil as a supporter other than God, then he has indeed lost a great loss.
This verse has nothing to do with what we r talking about.
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
This Hadith There are reports in the Sunnah which indicate that circumcision for women is prescribed in Islam. In Madeenah there was a woman who circumcised women and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her: “Do not go to the extreme in cutting; that is better for the woman and more liked by the husband.” Narrated by Abu Dawood (5271), classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.
For sure, prophet Muhammed meant "Clitoridotomy" not "Clitoridectomy" not "Infibulation"
Posted by cHiMpSs (Member # 11270) on :
SICK!! Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
Female Circumcision From Islamic Perspective
BY DR. MOHAMED SALIM AL-AWWA, SECRETARY GENERAL OF THE WORLD UNION OF THE MUSLIM ULEMAS (Basic document distributed among the participants to the Djibouti Conference on FGM)
Question 1: Is female circumcision one of the Islamic rites due to Prophetic Hadiths reported about it?
Answer 1:
It goes without saying that the rulings of the Islamic Legislation (Shari`ah) are to be deduced from the authentic sources of legalization, namely the Qur'an, right Sunnah (i.e., right Prophetic Traditions), Consensus of Muslim Scholars in case it fulfills its conditions stated in the science of the Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence as well as the sound Qiyas (i.e., Analogical Deduction).
Hence, if we come to seek the ruling of practicing female circumcision in the light of the Islamic legislation, we are to refer to the Qur'an, right Prophetic Sunnah, then Consensus of Muslim Scholars, and if we fail to find an answer in such sources, we are to resort to the Analogical Deduction taking into consideration to what extent it is possible to practice it.
As for the Qur'an, there is absolutely no text tackling the issue of female circumcision. Moreover, no consensus of Muslim Scholars on such a matter is reported. Furthermore, practicing Analogical Deduction to prove the legality of such an act may be unacceptable.
As far as Sunnah is concerned, there are some Prophetic Hadiths that may indicate the legality of practicing female circumcision despite the fact that none of these Hadiths have an authentic chain of transmitters so that it is not possible to deduce a legal ruling from them on such a very serious human matter.
Thus, it is unacceptable, according to scholars, to use Hadiths of an unauthentic chain of transmitters as an argument for some matter as only Hadiths of authentic chain of transmitters can be applied as an argument.
Prophetic Hadiths pertaining to the issue of female circumcision:
The First Hadith
The most common Hadith in this regard is the saying of the Prophet Muhammad Peace and Blessings be Upon Him (PBUH) to a woman called Umm `Attiyyah who used to circumcise females in EL Medina El Menora: ["O Umm `Attiyyah, take a little part and do not exaggerate; doing so will preserve the fairness of the womans face and satisfy the husband [It means: ["O Umm `Attiyyah, take a little part (of the female genital organs) and do not exaggerate (in cutting when circumcising); doing so will preserve the fairness of the face (of the circumcised woman) and (sexually) satisfy the husband (when having sexual intercourse with the circumcised woman in such a way)."]
This Hadith has been narrated by Al-Hakim, Al-Bayhaqy and Abu Dawud with similar wording but through weak chains of transmitters; the same is stated by Al-Hafiz Zayn Ed-Din Al-`Iraqy in his Commentary on Al-Ghazaly's book "The Revival of the Religious Sciences" (1/148). Abu Dawud, whose narration of this Hadith is different in wording, comments on the Hadith saying, "It is reported with the same meaning and the same chain of transmitters by `Ubaydul-Lah Ibn `Amr on the authority of `Abdul-Malak; moreover, it is not of a strong chain of transmitters as one of its narrations is Mursal (i.e., has no companion in its chain of transmitters). Above all, Muhammad Ibn Hassan, the narrator of this Hadith, is anonymous and the Hadith itself has been categorized as a da`if (weak) Hadith." (1)(2)
Imam Shams Ed-Din Al-Haqq Al-`Azim Abady comments on the saying of Abu Dawud, "This Hadith is not strong because of the weakness of the narrator Muhammad Ibn Hassan Al-Kufi.." . Ibn `Aidyy and Al-Bayhaqy have attested to the anonymity of Muhammad Ibn Hassan, the narrator, while Al-Hafiz `Abdul-Ghany Ibn Sa`id disagrees with them about the narrator saying, "He is Muhammad Ibn Sa`d who was crucified for being an atheist(3) . He is a weak and an unreliable narrator." Whether being Muhammad Ibn Hassan or Muhammad Ibn Sa`id, the narrator is a liar as scholars maintain that he fabricated four thousand Hadiths and attributed them to the Prophet (PBUH) . About him, Imam Ahmad says, "Al Mansur killed and then crucified him as a punishment for atheism. "(4)
In addition, some of the contemporaries have compiled all narrations of this Hadith and concluded that all the ways through which this Hadith is transmitted are weak and cannot be considered a proof of a legal ruling. In his thesis on female circumcision, Muhammad Lutfy As-Sabbagh, Professor in Islamic Studies in Riyadh University, says, "See, may Allah guide you, how the two great Imams, Abu Dawud and Al-`Iraqy, have judged this Hadith to be da`if and pay no attention to those late scholars who deem it as a Sahih (5) (authentic) one. Shams Ed-Din Al-Haq Al-`Azim Abady beforehand said, "The Hadith of female circumcision has been reported through so many ways all of which are weak, blemished and defective, and thus it is unacceptable to prove a legal ruling through such ways." (6) To conclude, the Hadith in question does not benefit and no argument can be derived from it.
The Second Hadith
The Prophet (PBHU) was reported to have said:
"Circumcision is an act of Sunnah for men and an honorable act for women."
On his commentary on the book "the Revival of the Religious Sciences," Al-Hafiz Al-`Iraqi has judged the concerned Hadith as da`if, which is the same judgment of Al-Bayhaqy, Ibn Abu Hatim, and Ibn `Abdul-Barr. Further, all the narrations of this Hadith are traced back to Al-Hajjaj Ibn Artaah whose narrations are not to be taken as a proof of a legal ruling for being Mudallas (7) (dishonest) in his narration.
In his book "Talkhis Al-Habir fi Takhrij Ahadith Ar-Rafi`y Al-Kabir," Al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar has spoken of the weakness of such a Hadith citing the saying of Al-Bayhaqy that it is da`if (weak) and Munqati` (disconnected) (8) Ibn `Abdul-Barr has also stated in his work "At-Tamhid Lima fi Al-Muwatta' min Al-Ma`ani wa Al-Asanid" that the narrations of the Hadith in question are taken from an unreliable narrator.(9) Ibn `Abdul-Barr has maintained in the same book, "Such a Hadith is taken as a proof of the permissibility of circumcision by those deeming such an act as one of Sunnah despite that this Hadith is originally received from Al-Hajjj Ibn Artaah whose reports are not to be taken as a proof in case he is the only narrator of such reports; that is to say such reports are not narrated by anyone of his contemporaneous narrators. However, only male circumcision has been unanimously agreed upon by the Muslim scholars." (10)
Therefore, this Hadith is not a proof of female circumcision as it is categorized as weak; moreover, it is traced back to a narrator whose narration is not fit to be a proof, thus how is it reasonable to deduce a legal ruling from such a Hadith to make some matter as one of Sunnah or even of the honorable actions?! Being honorable means to be at least desirable and being desirable entails being a legal ruling proved by nothing but authentic evidence.
Deeming that the Hadith of Umm `Atiyyah implies some proofs that attest to the connotations of the Hadith in question is refuted by the fact that all these proofs cited by those deeming such a Hadith as Sahih (authentic) are too defective to be accepted as evidence of a legal ruling. Hence, the support given to female circumcision becomes weaker.
Even in case we assume that this Hadith is acceptable though it is not so it is worth mentioning that the legal ruling on male circumcision does not stand on equal footing with that on female circumcision. This is because the Hadith makes male circumcision as an act of the Sunnah while female circumcision as an honorable one; it declares that female circumcision is not of the Sunnah but it is a mere honorable act that does not reach the rank of being from the Sunnah. According to such an assumption, it seems that when Islam came, it wanted to show Arabs, who were accustomed to practicing female circumcision before Islam, how to regulate such a habit. This can be perceived clearly in the very exact and fine words mentioned in the first weak Hadith, "Take a little part (of female genital organs) and do not exaggerate ."
Above all, some virtuous ladies have directed my attention to that the beginning of the Hadith of Umm `Atiyyah contradicts its end, as it first enjoins female circumcision but later indicates that leaving some of the part to be removed causes to "preserve the fairness of the face and sexually satisfy the husband." Thus, why do we not leave the creation of Allah without change that the woman's face becomes more perfect in fairness and the husband attains more sexual satisfaction?!
Anyway, the two hadiths, according to the assumption of being sahih (authentic), do not carry interpretations other than we have mentioned. Moreover, if the Prophet (PBUH) had wanted to make male circumcision on an equal footing with that of the female, he would have said, "Circumcision is an act of the Sunnah for men and women," or "Circumcision is an act of the Sunnah," which will be a general legal ruling in such a case.
Accordingly, it seems true to attest to the saying of Imam Ibn Al-Munzir, a great scholar in Fiqh (11) and Hadith :
"As for female circumcision, there is neither report to refer to nor tradition to follow." (12)
The same opinion is held by Sheikh Muhammad Rashid Rida in reply to a question published in Al-Manar Magazine. (13)
Imam Ash-Shawkany has maintained that regardless of being unacceptable to use such a Hadith as a proof of a legal ruling, it has no evidence of the legality of what is ordained in it, as the word "Sunnah" when mentioned by the Lawgiver (14) connotes a meaning more general than that connoted when mentioning it by the scholars of the Principles of Fiqh. As for male circumcision, there is no evidence that it is obligatory; however, what is agreed upon is that it is an act of Sunnah. Besides, all acts of natural disposition are not obligatory (see Nail Al-Awtar 1/135).
Furthermore, Sheikh Sayyid Sabiq, in his well-known work "Fiqh As-Sunnah," has said that the Hadihs that enjoin female circumcision are da`if (weak); none of them is judged to be Sahih. (15)
The Third Hadith
It stands for the Hadith reported by `Abdullah Ibn `Umar and in which the women of Al-Ansar (i.e., the Supporters of the Prophet in EL Medina) have been enjoined to practice female circumcision. This Hadith is da`if (weak) as Ash-Shawkany has said that it is related by Abu Na`im with a chain of transmitters that contains Mindal Ibn Ali who is deemed weak in narration. Ash-Shawkany (16) also adds that such a hadith is related by Ibn `Addiy with a chain of transmission having Khalid Ibn `Amr Al-Qurashi, who is deemed weaker than Mindal.
The Fourth Hadith
Aishah (may Allah be pleased with her) narrated an authentic Hadith that the Prophet (PBUH) said: "If the two organs to be removed by circumcision are met, then performing Ghusl (ritual bath) is obligatory." (This Hadith is in the well-known books of collections of Prophetic Hadiths , written by Malik, Muslim, At-Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah and others)
The point here is that since the Prophet (PBUH) says "the two organs to be removed by circumcision," which indicates the place of circumcision for the man and woman, some people may consider this as a proof of the legality of female circumcision.
Such an argument can be refuted by the fact that in Arabic language, two things or persons may be given one quality or name that belongs only to one of them for an effective cause. Such an effective cause may be that this quality or name given to such two things or persons combined together though belonging to only one of them is more famous and commoner than that of the other. Other criteria may be strength, potency, eminence, or easiness in pronunciation. Such a form of duality given one quality or name is common in Arabic regardless of whether the two things or persons forming duality are two males or females or a combination of a female and a male, and whether the common quality or name belongs to a male or a female. Some examples may be as follows: (17)
1- The name Al-`Umran is given to Abu Bakr and `Umar.
2- The names "the two moons" and "the two lights" are given to the moon and the sun together despite the fact that the moon is visible by reflection of sunlight.
3- "The two `Isha's" is given to the two prayers of the Maghrib and `Isha', and the "two Zuhrs" is a name for the two prayers of the Zuhr and the `Asr.
4- The term "the two black things" is given to dates and water combined despite the fact that water has no color.
5- The river and the sea are called when combined together "the two seas" as Allah says, "the two seas are not alike." (Qura'n, Fatir: 12). The first of the two seas is a river and the other stands for a real sea; however, the river and the sea, when combined together forming duality, are called the two seas for the sea is greater than the river. Here, the greater name takes priority.
6- "The two Marwas" is a term given to the two hills of Safa and Marwah in Mecca. Likewise, the two yellowish things" is a name for the two materials: silk and gold, though silk is of many colors.
Hence, the phrase "the two organs to be removed by circumcision" in this authentic Hadith involves no proof on the legality of female circumcision, as it has been reported while bearing duality (i.e., giving priority to the stronger; men over women) as mentioned above.
Another refutation of this argument is that the Hadith concerned is originally quoted in what makes Al-Ghusl (i.e., having ritual bath) obligatory and not in the matter of circumcision. In addition, all scholars interpreted such a Hadith, as follows: Mere meeting of the sexual organs does not require Ghusl except that the act of having sexual intercourse actually happens. Hence, if the literal meaning of the Hadith has been left, then how can we accept the implication of such meaning?!
The Fifth Hadith
The Prophet was reported to have said:
"Acts of natural disposition are five: circumcision, removing the pubic hair, shaving the mustache, cutting the fingernails, and plucking the armpit hair." (Related by Al-Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, At-Tirmidhi, An-Nasa'i, Ahmad, and Malik in his "Al-Muwatta")
This Hadith reported also by `A'ishah and other Companions of the Prophet's, the acts of natural disposition are said to be ten among which are shaving the mustache and growing the beard.
This Sahih Hadith (authentic Hadith) does not constitute a proof of female circumcision as shaving the mustache and growing the beard are acts peculiar only to men. The original narration of this Hadith is recorded by Imam Malik on the authority of Yahya Ibn Sa`id that Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham; PBUH) was the first to be circumcised. This is agreed upon by Muslim scholars. The same saying is stated by Ibn `Abdul-Barr in his book entitled "At-Tamhd" as he maintains that circumcision is one of stressed traditions for messengers and thus it is inevitably applied to men. The same author also denies the validity and legality of female circumcision as we have mentioned before.
Therefore, it is not permissible to deem female circumcision as one of the acts of natural disposition, unlike male circumcision which is considered as one of these acts.
Another proof to negate the legality of female circumcision is that there is no evidence that any of the Prophet's daughters or wives had been circumcised, which proves that if the female circumcision was categorized as one of Islamic rites, then the Prophet (PBUH) would be the first to apply it to his daughters and wives.
In conclusion, it becomes clear that there is no sahih Sunnah (authentic sunnah) to prove the legality of female circumcision as all hadiths cited in such a matter are da'if (weak) and no legal ruling can be deduced from them. Such a practice (female circumcision) is nothing but a habit which Islam has left for time and medical progress to invalidate.
Question 2: The Four Schools of Fiqh (18) give many different legal rulings with regard to female circumcision. It is said to be obligatory for men and women according to Imam Ash-Shafi`y, obligatory for men and an honorable act for women according to Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, and an act of the Sunnah for men and an honorable act for women according to Imam Abu Hanifah and Imam Malik. Hence, none of them claims the prohibition of female circumcision. Can we conclude, accordingly, that such a practice (i.e., female circumcision) is, at least, permissible as long as practicing it is not prohibited by any of the Four Imams
Answer 2:
Fiqh is defined as the science of Islamic Jurisprudence . Such science must be dependent on the detailed proofs included in the Qur'an, the Prophetic Sunnah, sound Consensus of Muslim Scholars, and sound applicable Qiyas.(19)
In addition to being acquainted with the knowledge related to Fiqh and Shar`ah, the Faqh (20) must be aware of the social circumstances where he lives and thus gives his fatwa (21) and teachings taking into consideration the circumstances and conditions of his society.
Since Fiqh is a human science through which specialists in religious and Shar`ah science are to show the legal ruling of every matter Muslims are interested to know the judgment of Shar`ah therein. Then the opinion of a Faqih is not to be considered as a core part of Shar`ah or a religion and thus be used as a legal evidence. Rather, the Faqih's opinion is merely a product of exerting his discretion in understanding the legal texts, thus it is affected by the problems of the world surrounding the Faqih. Such a process is considered a trial for reaching a well understanding of the texts and knowing how to apply them. Thus, the Faqih is not infallible, for he may be wrong and may be right. However, the Faqih qualified to practice Ijtihad (22) receives a double reward if he reaches the right course and one reward if he errs. In this regard, Ash-Shafi`y said, "My opinion is right but likely to be wrong and the opinion of others is wrong but likely to be right."
Besides, not all what is tackled in the books of Fiqh and Hadith is considered religious matters; there are many issues tackled in such books while not being of a religious affairs such as that related to medicine, food, clothing, etc.
As for religious handling of worldly affairs, the Prophet (PBUH) set for us an example when he ordered Muslims not to pollinate palms, which negatively affected their output. Seeing the output of palms falling with production unexpectedly, the Prophet (PBUH) said addressing Muslims, "You are more knowledgeable of your worldly affairs." In this way, he (PBUH) shows us the difference between his instructions related to the religious affairs, and those related to worldly or socially ones.
Therefore, the Faqih, when giving his fatwa on a certain field he is not familiar with, must follow opinions of those having more knowledge of the field concerned, considering the public interest of people unless such opinions contradict an evident religious text.
As far as medical issues, tackled in the books of Fiqh and Hadith, are concerned, they are considered pure worldly affairs for which the judgment of the Faqih is asked but after knowing that of the medicine and science. This is because science and the profession of medicine basically deal with reality for which the Faqih is called to give his legal fatwa. Hence, the opinion of the Faqih is to be built on that of the physician and not vise versa.
If we apply the criteria mentioned above to the issue of female circumcision, we can reach the conclusion that the one, who is to tackle such a matter and instruct people about such a serious issue, must fulfill the full conditions of the Faqih and not that of callers, preachers, exegetes, or scholars of Hadith. To fulfill these conditions, the Faqih must be acquainted with different religious sciences especially the science of Fiqh and its principles. In addition, he must have accurate knowledge of this habit (i.e., Female circumcision); for example, he must study its historical origin, cultural and social reasons behind practicing it, and scientific facts related to the organs removed through such a practice. Among the scientific facts he should be aware of, are the nature of the organ removed and its vital functions and how this organ has positive effect when left as created by Allah while it has negative effect when removed in such a process. In other words, removing this part may cause the two spouses to be deprived of the full sexual enjoyment, while leaving it may guarantee such enjoyment.
Fulfilling such conditions, the Faqih becomes competent to give a judgement built on his knowledge of scientific facts and not on the popular groundless knowledge and culture.
As for the scientific view on female circumcision, it is crystal clear; it states that female circumcision is a partial or complete removal of the female's external genital organs. Accordingly, such an act may negatively affects the natural functions for which such an organ is created as well as the legal sexual pleasure. So, such a practice is nothing but a social practice that aims at controlling the woman and depriving her of her rights.
Having acquainted with all these modern social and scientific facts about this old habit, is it reasonable for the Faqihs today to justify and defend the continuity of such a practice?!
Question 3: Being a da`if (week) Hadith is not fit to be considered as a proof of prohibiting the practice of female circumcision, as some people maintain that it is permissible to act upon the da`if Hadith especially when it urges to do virtuous and righteous deeds.
Answer 3:
In the beginning, we have to stress that such people make it permissible to act upon the da`if Hadith, which is defined, according to their Hadith terminology - as not very da`f or munkar(23) , only when it urges to do virtuous and righteous deeds not to hurt and harm people physically and psychologically without any legal or religious right (such as the case with female circucision).
As a matter of fact, the Islamic methodology when disapproving of the practice of female circumcision, it depends not only on judging Hadiths as being da`if but it also depends on other essential bases.
The first of these bases is the accurate scientific and social understanding of the habit of female circumcision and not the traditions and inherited practices of common people. Such a category includes the following
1- The scientific description of this habit
2- The natural functions for which the organ to be cut is created
3- The physical and psychological effects resulting from applying this habit whether to the young female or the adult one
4- The social reasons for this habit that motivate the Egyptian families to practice such a practice
The second base on which the Islamic methodology is built is the Fiqhi (Islamic judgment) that is to be based on the understanding of and accurate explanation of this habit from the scientific and social perspectives. As such, it seems important to consider the application of the legal religious judgment deduced from the main sources of Shari`ah, namely the Qur'an and the authentic Sunnah. This in addition to the Consensus of Muslim Scholars and Qiyas provided they fulfill their full conditions as we mentioned beforehand.
First: The Scientific Understanding of Female circumcision Habit
1- The scientific description of the process of FGM is to remove all or part of the external genital organs of the female.
However, this scientific description is different from the description of those practicing this habit as they describe such a process as a practice of removing an extra part of the female's genital organs. According to the latter description, the words "extra part" indicate that such a part has no function in the body but rather it may harm it. On the other hand, the scientific description uses the term "organ" which is a name for each group of tissues that is fed by blood vessels and nerves and performs vital and necessary functions for the human body.
2- According to physicians, the natural functions for which the organ to be cut are created, are as follows:
To protect the rest genital organs. To produce natural secretions that facilitate the process of sexual intercourse increasing the sexual enjoyment between the two spouses that they feel much intimacy towards each other. They make it easy for the woman to be satisfied sexually, which is required on the religious and human levels. They help direct the urine out in a direction away from the body, a thing which helps preserve the purity of these organs.
3- The Physical and psychological effects resulting from removing these organs can be summed as follows:
From the Health Perspective:
The female is deprived of the natural functions of these organs either totally or partially according to the way these organs are cut through the process of circumcision. The circumcised female (young girl or adult one) becomes prone to many complications and dangers for the rest of her life.
From the Psychological and Social Perspective:
For any young female, circumcision is a painful experience that may leave behind many psychological bad effects such as phobia, depression, and lack of confidence in her parents and perhaps in herself. Moreover, such a process fixes in the mind of the circumcised girl a disgraceful picture of herself that she is a being that has neither reason nor morals to help it respect its body or control its desires and sexual behavior as if religion, reason and conscience are not enough determents. That is, it becomes desperately obligatory to remove the genital organs of such a being in a way that causes pain so that it may become morally upright.
As a result, it seems clear that we bring our daughters up to teachings and principles that are harmful to the individual and the society as well.
4- Why do the Egyptian families apply circumcision to their daughters, and what are the beliefs and traditions that back the continuity of this habit?
Most researchers agree that female circumcision is a habit supported by many traditions and beliefs that have no scientific base. Among these beliefs are the following:
Female circumcision causes to reduce and control the sexual desire of the unmarried and married woman, which help both maintain their honor, decency and chastity.
The uncircumcised woman has strong sexual desire so that she may cause exhaustion to her husband. On the other hand, the circumcised woman is self-restraint and her need for sex is not excessive. Such a woman is able to maintain her chastity in case her husband is absent or ill. All this is to make the husband guarantee satisfaction and pleasure and feel more confident in his wife's conduct.
Circumcision helps the female become enough mature and thus fit for being married and giving birth, which is considered as a baseless thought.
Circumcision is a means of beautifying and purifying the female as it frees her from ugly and unclean parts in her body.
Secondly: According to what is mentioned above, we can sum up the main Islamic rules that prohibit this old habit as follows:
1. There is not even one legal religious evidence in the main sources of Shari`ah to prove the legality of female circumcision. That is to say, female circumcision is not an obligatory act, an act of the Sunnah, or even an honorable act as clarified beforehand.
2. The value and inviolability of the human body are secured in Islam as well as in other heavenly religions. In fact, both man and woman have the right to enjoy a perfect physical and psychological health; this comes in accordance with the Prophetic Hadith that reads, "Harm is neither to be inflicted nor reciprocated."(24) This Hadith urges each Muslim, whether male or female, to avoid any practice that may cause harm to oneself or to others. Since modern sciences and human experience have proved that circumcision causes sure harm to the young female and the adult woman; through cutting off vital organs in the body of the female and thus depriving her of the natural functions of these organs and exposing her health to negative physical and psychological effects. Hence, such harm cannot be legally accepted for Allah says, "Kill not one another,"(25) and his saying, "be not cast by your own hands to ruin." (26)
3. Islam stresses the prohibition of causing change in Allah's creation. Because Allah says, "Surely, We created man of the best stature,"(27) then how to say that female circumcision is legalized to beautify the body of the female as if Allah, Exalted be He, has created her with a defect that needs to be treated. On the contrary, female circumcision is a means of changing and disfiguring Allah's creation through cutting and hurting.
Moreover, the Prophet (PBUH) forbade deforming Allah's creation as he (PBUH) was reported to have cursed those doing so. Likewise, the Qur'an stated that the act of cutting living organs even that of an animal is a sinful act. In addition, the Qur'an categorizes, in one of its Suras (i.e., Chapters), such a practice as one of the sins which Satan tempts man to do to his livestock; such an act comes coupled with the act of deforming Allah's creation in the same Sura that reads, "And he (i.e., Satan) said, 'Surely, I will take of Thy bondmen an appointed portion. And surely I will lead them astray, and surely I will arouse desires in them, and surely I will command them and they will cut the cattle's ears, and surely I will command them and they will change Allah's creation. Whosoever chooses Satan for a patron instead of Allah is verily a loser and his loss is manifest." (28)
4. Islamic teachings stress woman's right to a satisfactory and successful marital relation.
Actually, the teachings of our true Religion (i.e., Islam) invite us to respect the sexual relation between the two spouses and prove the duty of each part towards the other to establish a successful and happy relation. Therefore, such a relation may be spoiled in case of building it on satisfying only one part without the other; such is the embodiment of selfishness and egoism, a thing that Islam prohibits. Our inheritance of thoughts and beliefs pertaining to the sexual relation between the two spouses comes only in favor of the husband not the wife. This is easily noticed in the social thoughts and beliefs that make a link between female circumcision and the husband's sexual pleasure.
Put differently, Islamic teachings take into consideration the human desire for sex deeming such a desire as a natural disposition. So, Islam's duty is not to resist this disposition, but rather to satisfy it in a legal and lawful way. Islam pays much attention to the sexual relation between the two spouses and urges us to care about the feelings of woman and to respect her right of sexual satisfaction. Further, the Qur'an is careful to establish the right of woman to reach sexual satisfaction the same as the man, so Allah says, "Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) go to your tilth as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls."(29) Good deed mentioned in this verse refer to sexual foreplay such as kissing and touching that precede the sexual intercourse. Such foreplay help the woman get her full sexual pleasure. Similarly, the Prophet (PBUH) says, "In case a person of you intends to have intercourse with his wife, he should sexually stimulate her. Then, if he feels that her sexual desire has become equal to that of his, he may embark on copulating with her." The Prophet also says, "If a man comes to have sexual intercourse with his wife, he should do so with strong sexual passion and desire (that she may feel passionate intimacy to him). Later on, in case he is (sexually) satisfied, he should wait until she is satisfied to the same extent."
Accordingly, how can the woman become fully satisfied as the man while being deprived of main organs helping her reach such sexual satisfaction?!
To conclude, Islam respects the feelings of the woman, while the bad habits we have inherited over years never respect her feelings and rights but, instead, intend to violate them.
5. Islamic teachings decisively reject all social beliefs that lead the society to practicing female circumcision.
People claiming that women have neither reason nor will and those saying that women's desire for sex exceeds that of men 25-fold, do not offer even one evidence, be it built on legal text, reason, or a scientific fact, to support their claims which clearly contradict the Islamic teachings and principles. The Prophet (PBUH) says, "Women are equals to men." Such a Prophetic text refutes all these claims.
Because the woman is equal to the man in having feelings, desire, reason, and conscience, she, thus, can keep religious teachings, respect her body, and maintain her chastity, a thing which makes her grow upright and righteous in all her affairs. Some say that circumcision is to regulate and control woman's desire for sex. However, such a saying comes contradictory to the scientific fact that woman's desire for sex emanates from the brain and not sexual organs.
It goes without saying that the sexual behavior of the man or the woman, be right or not, is determined according to the brain which gives instructions to the organs of the body. It means that the body serves and obeys the brain in all instinctive human desires such as those of food, sleep, and sex. In other words, the sexual organs have nothing to do in determining the sexual desire or conduct. Therefore, female circumcision does not, from the scientific point of view, help regulate or control the sexual desire or conduct of the woman. The sexual desire and conduct of the circumcised and uncircumcised woman are dependent on morals, education, and the family among whom she lives. In fact, disorder occurs when the woman comes to be deprived of some natural functions as a result of removing some of her natural organs responsible for performing such functions.
Chastity, decency, and purity are Islamic virtues required from both the man and woman equally. Bringing up on righteous morals and purifying the souls with religion and piety constitute the effective and real restraint for the man and woman alike.
Question 4: Since the Fiqh general principle states that the original ruling of things is permissibility, and since there is not a legal religious proof to prohibit female circumcision, then the whole matter is considered as a permissible act that is to be decided only by the family and the guardian of the female to be circumcised
Answer 4:
Despite being true, this Fiqh rule the original ruling of things is permissibility is to be applied to beneficial objects created by Allah for our interest such as water, trees, and other resources. On the other hand, the original ruling pertaining to matters relating to one's body, property, honor, or dignity, is prohibition and not permissibility. Thus, attacking properties, destroying reputation, causing harm to bodies are all crimes for which Islamic Law gives deterring punishments.
Because female circumcision is an act of hurting a female by cutting parts from her body, it is not reasonable to say that such an act is among the permissible matters, for it is, on the contrary, legally prohibited according to religious rule that states "the original ruling pertaining to the harm caused against bodies, properties, and reputations, is prohibition not permissibility.
Question 5: Female circumcision is an old practice and convention (or custom), and custom is one of the sources of Islamic legalization, so it is obligatory to act according to it.
Answer 5:
Custom that is considered to be a legal proof must secure public interests for people and society and not be in contradiction with a legal religiuos text. Since female circumcision is a practice contradictory to the legal religious texts that prohibit causing harm to others, then being a custom does not make it permissible to practice such an act even if recurrently practiced for many ages. That is because customary practices cannot be taken as a legal proof when contradicting religious texts and, further, such a matter cannot be proved by a mere Faqih's view or school of Fiqh point of view in the absence of the authentic religious proof.
Question 6: Is the consent of the female's guardian or the female herself to apply circumcision not enough to make such an act permissible on the legal and Islamic levels?
Answer 6:
The consent of the female's guardian or even herself does not allow circumcision. As for the guardian, he has no right to behave freely regarding the body of the female under his guardianship; he has only the right to assume the responsibility for educating and bringing her up and caring for her affairs. As for the female, she has no right to do to her body what she likes, as only the One Who created her owns her body. As such, Islam forbids suicide and whatever acts that may cause any harm to the human body.
Accordingly, FGM becomes a legally criminal offence. Faqihs state that a full indemnity is required for cutting the labia (a part of woman's external genital organs). It is worth mentioning that indemnity is imposed as a means of punishing the criminal and recompensing the victim. Stating such a judgment, Faqihs have said that the sexual enjoyment is fulfilled through those labia of the vulva. Hence, any act that may negatively affect the sexual enjoyment entails the same compensational punishment. As a result, prohibiting such an act is legally permissible; embarking on prohibiting such an act would be prior to waiting until it occurs and then we begin trials to detect its causes or analyze it.(30)
Question 7: What we mean to apply is the Sunnah circumcision not the African or Pharaonic Circumcision. Practicing female circumcision helps us adhere to the Sunnah and reject the claims of the West about such a matter. Are all serious problems of Egypt solved except for the issue of female circumcision, so it takes all this attention?
Answer 7:
The Prophetic Tradition is free of what is called the circumcision of the Sunnah for females. Further, the Prophet's Sirah (i.e., Biography), which records everything about the Prophet (PBUH) in detail, has no mention that he (PBUH) practiced circumcision on his daughters, wives, or any female member of his household.
In addition, most Muslim countries, such as Saudi Arabia, Gulf States, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, Indonesia, and Malaysia, do not practice female circumcision, a matter that makes us question whether it is reasonable to think that this habit is an Islamic rite or an act of the Sunnah despite being abandoned by all these countries.
To get rid of this habit does not mean that we go after the West and follow the recommendations of the International Conference for Population and Development held in Egypt (1994) and in which a film on a process of circumcising an Egyptian female, was presented. Such a film was also broadcasted on CNN, which, of course, made each Muslim, jealous for his country and religion, feel resentment against such an act. Such attention given to the issue of FGM is not new as it has attracted many times the people of opinion(31) and those entrusted with giving fatwas. In support of this, the Egyptian physicians, through the Egyptian Medical Association,(32) issued the first call to fight this habit from the medical viewpoint at the end of twenties in the last century.
Moreover, there are legal fatwas that go back to the forties of the past century and all of which stress that female circumcision is not an act of the Sunnah and whoever abandon it is not sinful.(33) Among these fatwas are:
1. The fatwa issued in 1949 by the great scholar Sheikh Muhammad Hasanin Makhluf, the Egyptian Mufti (34)
2. The fatwa of Sheikh Sayyid Sabiq, the author of "Fiqh As-Sunnah." Sheikh Sayyid Sabiqs work "Fiqh As-Sunnah" issued in the forties have become, later, an important referrence in Fiqh as the author deals with Fiqhi questions combined with their legal proofs from the Sahih (authentic) Sunnah. In this book, Sheikh Sayyid Sabiq maintains that hadiths urging to practice female circumcision are da`if and none of them is proved to be Sahih.
3. The fatwa of Sheikh Muhammad Rashid Rida published in Al-Manar Magazine in 1904.
Consequently, fighting FGM is a humane affair in the first place, for how does a parent accept to apply FGM to his/her daughter despite being aware of the nature of such a process and its harmful effects on her/his female.
So, we should fear Allah concerning this matter and always remember the Prophets saying, "Be good to women."
The Great Muslim Scholars Disapprove of Female circumcision
A -Sheikh Rashid Rida, 1904
Under the heading "Female Circumcision: obligatory or an act of the Sunnah," Sheikh Rida wrote in the Manar Magazine saying, "Ibn Al-Munzir said, 'As for circumcision, there is no report to be referred to nor a hadith to be followed.' Those claiming female circumcision to be an act of the Sunnah support their view with the hadith related by Al-Bayhaqi and Ahmad from Usamah, "Circumcision is an act of the Sunnah for men and an honorable act for women." However, Al-Hajjaj Ibn Arta'ah, to whom the narration of this hadith is traced back, is mudallis (known for his dishonesty in narration).
B - Sheikh Muhammad Hasanin Makhluf
Sheikh Makhluf was the Egyptian Muft from 1946 to 1950. He occupied many important positions as he was a founding member of the Muslim World League (MWL). He also was selected to be a member in the High Judiciary Council in Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Among his works are "Kalimat Al-Qur'an Tafsir wa Bayan" (the Qur'anic Words: Explanation and Clarification), "Safwat Al-Bayan Li-Ma`ani Al-Quran" (the Clear Explanation for the Qur'anic Implications), and "Adab Tilawat Al-Quran Wa Sama`uh" (the Etiquette of Recitation of and Listening to the Qur'an). He was well-known for his reformative thinking and fatwas that would conform to people's life. Here is his fatwa on female circumcision in detail:
The legal ruling on female circumcision - The principle:
Most scholars agree that female circumcision is not obligatory and whoever abandons it is not sinful. On the other hand, male circumcision is obligatory as it is a rite of Islam and a tradition applied by Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham; PBUH).
Question: Is female circumcision legally obligatory or not?
Answer: Scholars of Fiqh have differed on the legal ruling on female circumcision. As-Shafi`yyah(35) have maintained in An-Nawawis work "Al-Majmu` (the Compilation)" that it is obligatory for male and female. According to them, their view is the sound one adopted by the majority of scholars. In Al-Mughni (the Sufficient), a Hanbali (36) book written by Ibn Qudamah, male circumcision is obligatory while female circumcision is not obligatory but it is an act of the Sunnah and an honorable act for women. This opinion comes in accordance with that of many scholars. According to Al-Hanafiyyah and Al-Malikiyyah,(37) female circumcision is an act of Sunnah and an Islamic rite. To conclude, the majority of scholars agree that female circumcision is not obligatory (the opinion of Al-Hanafiyya, Al-Malikiyyah, and Al-Hanabilah (38) and some of Ash-Shafi`iyyah). This means that it is not a sinful act to abondon it. On the other hand, male circumcision is obligatory and an act followed by Abraham (PBUH) and thus considered as an Islamic rite (the view of Ash-Shafi`yyah and Al-Hanabilah). As such, it is not sinful to abondon this tradition as done in many countries.
C- Sheikh Sayyid Sabiq, the Author of "Fiqh As-Sunnah"
Sheikh Sayyid Sabiq is one of the Muslim Scholars of Egypt in the twentieth century. The composition of his encyclopedic work "Fiqh As-Sunnah" took about more than twenty years to be completed, as he began to write it at the middle of the forties. Fiqh As-Sunnah, thereby, is considered one of the reference books, because it deals with the Fiqhi issues and questions accompanied with their legal proofs deduced from the Quran, the Sahih (Authentic) Sunnah, and Consensus of Muslim scholars. With regard to the issue of female circumcision, Sheikh Sayyid Sabiq says in his book, "Hadiths stating the legality of female circumcision are da`if (weak); none of them is sahih." (39)
D -Sheikh Mahmoud Shaltut, the Egyptian Mufti in the fifties:
The following is the legal opinion of Sheikh Mahmoud Shaltut issued in 1959 about female circumcision in detail:
Female circumcision
The questioner says: "The Physicians views have differed as regards female circumcision as it is practiced and supported by some of them while rejected and attacked by others. However, people stick to practicing such an act; they hold feasts for it thinking that it is a religious rite matter and an Islamic rite. So, can we know the opinion of Islam on this practice and the age fit to be practiced at?"
To commence, the questioner is not the first to ask for the opinion of Islam on the act of female circumcision and this is not the first time to answer such a question. This is because I wrote on such an issue many times beforehand but my writing dealt with the case of the questioner only not with the issue in general. This time I prefer to discuss the issue of female circumcision in public from the viewpoint of Islam, which all people are interested to know about. I will show to all people, be they questioners or non questioners, the opinion of the Islamic Shari`ah on this issue so that the reader may be aware of the relation between this practice and the Islamic Shari`ah.
Circumcision
Circumcision is an ancient habit many people used to do in early history and continued to practice it even after the coming of Islam; they applied such a practice to males and females. However, it is not exactly known what was the real motive behind initiating this practice: Was it motivated by human thinking and natural disposition that require removing extra parts which have no use or may cause harm and impurity in case they are not removed, or did such people build their practice on a religious teaching given by a prophet or messenger at some age
Irregardless of this, what concerns us in this regard is to know the relation between religion and circumcision and the legal ruling pertaining to it.
Faqihs and circumcision
As for circumcision, Faqihs have adopted different views regarding the narrations from which they deduce their legal rulings. This has been their case with each matter lacking an evident textual proof. So, some Faqihs maintain that it is an obligatory and honorable act for male and female. As they have differed on the legal ruling of circumcision about which their views diverge to the highest degree of divergence and also converge to the highest degree of convergence they have also differed as regards the legal time when such a practice is t be applied. Among their opinions cited in this regard are:
1- There is no specific time for it.
2- It is prohibited to be applied to a child before reaching the age of ten years.
3- It is allowable seven days after birth.
This is in addition to other different opinions in this respect.
Different Viewpoints
The first lesson to be drawn from this Fiqhi difference, which is a common thing among Faqihs in each matter lacking an evident textual proof, is that those Faqihs enjoy great freedom of opinion when seeking the legal ruling from reports or other legal proofs pertaining to matters that lack an evident textual proof. Despite their difference, none of them would find fault with the opinion of the other; they would listen to the proofs offered by each other then support or refute while showing neither inflexibility nor excessiveness.
The oddest deduction in this context comes when some of those deeming the obligation of circumcision prove their view quoting the verse that reads, "So we have taught thee the inspired (message), follow the ways of Abraham, the true in Faith." (Qur'an: An-Nahl "the Bees": 123) To illustrate, they have worked on the two premises that Ibrahim (Abraham), according to a Prophetic hadith, was circumcised when he reached the age of eighty years, and the verse in question commanded the Prophet (PBUH) and his followers to follow the footsteps of Ibrahim (PBUH). As such, they conclude that circumcision practiced by Ibrahim is obligatory on Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and his followers. Such is the excessive deduction that has been met with disapproval.
A similar deduction is that of others who prove the obligation of circumcision by saying, "Circumcision is one of Commands Ibrahim was tried with, which is mentioned in the verse that states, "And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain Commands, which he fulfilled." (Qur'an: Al-Baqarah "the Cow": 124) They say Ibn `Abbas said, "These Commands stand for the acts of natural disposition: circumcision, removal of the pubic hair, shaving of the mustache, cutting of fingernails, and plucking the armpit hair." Such a saying is frequently stated in the books of Tafsir. (41)
My Own View on the Issue
Regarding the aforementioned narrations pertaining to female circumcision, we can conclude that none of them is fit to be a proof of the Fiqhi Sunnah (42) or the Fiqhi occurrence. This opinion is adopted by some scholars and expressed as saying that, concerning circumcision, there is no report to be referred to nor a hadith to be followed. Further, the word "Sunnah," which is mentioned in some narrations as an adjective for circumcision, refers, if true, to the common tradition of the people at that time; uttering the word "Sunnah," the Prophet (PBUH) did not mention this Fiqhi meaning of Sunnah known later on.
Thereupon, I view that the legal ruling on circumcision is not to depend on a transmitted text, but to a legal general norm that reads, "Causing pain to a person is not legally permissible unless it brings benefits that exceed pain."
Male Circumcision
Applying the rule mentioned above to circumcision, we find that circumcision is to be applied to only males as it brings them benefits that exceed the pain resulting from it. This is because the inside of the foreskin of the penis is a place that forms secretions, which help bacteria resulting from decomposition of secretions to grow and thus cause cancer and other serious diseases. Thereby, male circumcision becomes a preventive procedure that keeps mans life, so the Lawgiver(43) makes it inevitable and obligatory in this case.
Female Circumcision
As for female circumcision, the case is different as people deal with the matter from a sexual point of view. That is to say the focus, when talking about such an issue, is on the degree to which the sexual desire of the female is affected by such a process; this is discussed by physicians. Some physicians think that abandoning circumcision of females causes their sexual desire to be so intense that they cannot control their sexual conduct, and this may lead them to unchastity. Therefore, female circumcision is a preventive action to keep ones honor and chastity. Another group, on the other hand, think that circumcision weakens the sexual desire of females, a thing which forces the husband to seek help in taking some harmful drugs that may spoil his life. As such, it is obligatory to abondon such a practice to keep the husbands health mentally and physically.
Excessiveness Everywhere
I may be true when I say that physicians are as excessive in their viewpoints as the Faqihs in their legal opinions. That is because female circumcision, whether practiced or not, has nothing to do with the sexual desire as the sexual instinct in females, whether strong or weak, depends on the formation of the body and the glands, whether strong or weak. This is supported by the fact that we can find many circumcised females falling into acts of indecency and unchastity; little of such incidents can be read or watched while many are hidden from people.
Those taking harmful drugs are urged into doing so by bad traditions they receive from the corrupt societies as their feelings about the sexual instinct are nothing but illusions resulting from the effects of drugs they take on the nervous system.
As a matter of fact, all the effects of female circumcision, whether positive or negative, are dependent on morals, society, good education, and strict observance. Hence, it becomes clear that there is no need, be it legal, ethical, or medical, for female circumcision.
Maybe it is an honorable act
However, female circumcision may be an honorable act done for men who may feel annoyed with the extra part of the clitoris when having sex with the uncircumcised female. In such a case, it takes the same legal ruling of beautifying, applying perfume, shaving pubic hair and other acts required by natural disposition
To conclude, this is the legal ruling of male and female circumcision that I have deduced from the general rules of Shari`ah not from the legal textual proofs that pertain to this matter.
E -Sheikh of Al-Azhar, Grand Imam Muhammad Sayyid Tantawy
Here is the fatwa of the Grand Imam Muhammad Sayyid Tantawy on female circumcision:
Dr. `Ali `Abdul-Fattah, Minister of Health, Allahs peace and blessings be upon you. ?According to a letter sent from Dr. Mahmoud Ibrahim General Manager of General Department of Culture and Health Information in which he has asked for the legal ruling on female circumcision, we would like to inform you that:
1. Faqihs have agreed that male circumcision is an Islamic rite. They support their view with the Prophetic hadith related by Al-Hakim and Al-Bayhaqi on the authority of `Aishah that the Prophet (PBUH) had Al-Hasan and Al-Hussein circumcised on the seventh day of their birth.
2. As for female circumcision, there is no a hadith fit to be a proof of it as all hadiths and reports pertaining to it are judged to be da`if. Among these reports are the hadith that reads, "Circumcision is Sunnah for men and an honorable act for women" and the hadith, "Do not exaggerate (in cutting by taking much of this part of clitoris when circumcising); such will preserve the fairness of the face and satisfy the husband (when having sexual intercourse with the female circumcised in such a way)." Another narration of the latter hadith begin with the words, "take a little part (of the clitoris) and do not exaggerate" that mean to remove a little part of the clitoris. It is reported also that the Prophet (PBUH) ordered the man who came to him and embraced Islam to have his hair cut and be circumcised. Another hadith reads, "Who embraces Islam, should be circumcised." All these hadiths have been mentioned by Ash-Shawkani in his book "Nail Al-Awtar" (Vol. 1, pp. 137, 140). He talked about the chain of transmitters of these reports in detail and judged them as da`if quoting Ibnul-Munzir as saying, "As for female circumcision, there is neither a report to refer to nor a tradition to follow. Having mentioned reports related to circumcision, the author of "`Awn Al-Ma`bud fi Sharh Sunan Abu Dawud" has said that the hadith related to female circumcision has been received from many ways of transmission judged all to be flawed and defective and thus unfit to be a proof of a legal ruling. Then he has quoted Ibn `Abdul-Barr's saying in "At-Tamhid" that only male circumcision has gained the unanimous agreement of Muslim scholars.
3. In his book "Al-Fatawa" (the Fatwas) under the title "Female Circumcision" (pp. 2, 3), Sheikh Shaltut said, "From the aforementioned narrations related to female circumcision, we can conclude that none of them is fit to be a proof of the Fiqhi Sunnah or the Fiqhi occurrence. This opinion is adopted by some scholars. He, further, expressed such a case saying that there is no report to be referred to nor a hadith to be followed in such a matter.
4. Sheikh Sayyid Sabiq says in his book "Fiqh As-Sunnah" (p. 33, Vol. 1), "Hadiths stating the legality of female circumcision are da`if; none of them is sahih."
5. In Al-Azhar Magazine, Sheikh Muhammad `Arafah presented a research on circumcision in which he said, "Female circumcision is to be studied by the Muslim Scholar who is to deduce its legal ruling, by the physiologist who is to show the function of this organ to be removed in circumcision, and by the sociologist who is to elaborate on the social effects of female circumcision, be they positive or negative. According to physiology, the organ to be removed in female circumcision is very sensitive and, however, helpful in completing the process of fertilization, so removing it weakens the sexual desire of the woman. As far as sociologists are concerned, they think that female circumcision is the reason for the spread of drug addiction in countries that practice it including Egypt. To clarify, when the husband finds that he reaches sexual satisfaction before his wife, he may take some drugs wrongly believing that they cause ejaculation to delay. Sociologists also add, 'If we want to get rid of drug addiction, we must eradicate its reason, namely female circumcision, which keeps the true nature of woman and that of man.' " Sheikh `Arafah continued to say, "When considering the above, we can conclude that there is no blame on those practicing female circumcision but they must not exaggerate in removing this organ; that is, to take only little part of it. Similarly, there is no blame if this habit comes to be prohibited in Egypt as is the case in many Muslim Countries such as Turkey and Morocco.
6. After offering the opinions of late and early scholars on such a matter, I see that male circumcision is either Sunnah or an obligatory act for the authentic texts urging to do so. On the other hand, female circumcision lacks the authentic legal text. So, I think that it is a habit that spread in Egypt over years; however, it is about to cease to exist especially among the educated and cultured milieus.
To prove that female circumcision is a habit that lacks the legal textual proof, it is not practiced in most Muslim countries that are full of Faqihs. Among these countries are Saudi Arabia, Gulf States, Yemen, Iraq, Syria, some areas in Jordan, Palestine, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, and Morocco, etc.
Accordingly, I view that the matter of female circumcision is to be decided by physicians. In other words, if female circumcision is said by physicians to have harm, then it is obligatory to abandon such an act, and if they say something different, then the Ministry of Health must take all legal measures so that such a process is accomplished in a way that keeps for the woman her chastity, dignity, and femininity.
F - Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Lutfi As-Sabbagh, Prof. of Islamic Studies, Riyadh University.
Prof. As-Sabbagh conducted a research on the legal ruling on circumcision substantiating his views with all the legal proofs from the Quran and the Sahih Sunnah (i.e., Authentic Prophetic Tradition). He concluded, "Female circumcision is no longer legally acceptable, as there is no a sahih hadith to support it in addition to the harms and dangers it may cause. The Prophet (PBUH) states, 'Harm is neither to be inflicted nor reciprocated.' Such a hadith is one of the universals of this true Religion. As such, female circumcision is not necessary, obligatory or even an act of the Sunnah. This is the view of many scholars as they have not found any hadith reported from the Prophet (PBUH) in support of such a practice."
there never was it was culture thing handed down and used for its own mutalation shame islam had to be brought into it ...
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
Well, i read your post Dalia, I dont think Es is a place to discuss that matter. So, i will leave this discussion not because i dont have any comments but because this is not the suitable place.
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
Anyway, To sum up my points,
This "Clitoridotomy" has lots of benefits for females who need it. I knew this from non-muslim people and muslim ones. So, if it's beneficial and not prohibited by ANY MUSLIM SCHOLAR, then i will go for it after the permission of my daughters and after i come sure that they need it.
There is no problem and no shame if i ask a considerable(non-biased) women gynaecologist to check my daugter's genitalia and see if they need it or not.
This is for better health and protection against diseases.
Posted by cHiMpSs (Member # 11270) on :
go near my daughter and u certainly wudnt have a ''clit''to mess around with .
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: There is no problem and no shame if i ask a considerable(non-biased) women gynaecologist to check my daugter's genitalia and see if they need it or not.
This is for better health and protection against diseases.
A non-biased gynaecologist would throw you out and report you to the police.
I find it hard to get my head around the idea that someone could be so brainwashed that he considers doing that to his own child, deluding himself that it will "protect her from deseases". If I had a daughter and someone considered taking her to the doctor to check whether she "needs" to be mutilated I'd make VERY sure that person never comes near her again - whatever that might take.
Now excuse me while I go and puke ...
Posted by Charm el Feikh? (Member # 10243) on :
oh my... islamsweden, do you really have a daughter?!
OK, im going to try to reach you now...
these diseases, are they likely to occur in a child below the age of 18? if not, would you perhaps think about allowing her to reach that age and seek advice herself? even under your insistence that she is checked out.
i feel it has some comparison to me having my daughters breasts removed at age 13 to protect her from breast cancer.
i know its not the same thing, but please see the comparison.
please consider allowing your daughter to govern her own body. there may be a chance that you are right, and if you are something can be done about it in the future...
but there may be a chance that youre wrong, and you will have done something very wrong, to your precious daughter, that cannot be undone.
how old is she?
Posted by ispy (Member # 5871) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Anyway, To sum up my points,
This "Clitoridotomy" has lots of benefits for females who need it. I knew this from non-muslim people and muslim ones. So, if it's beneficial and not prohibited by ANY MUSLIM SCHOLAR, then i will go for it after the permission of my daughters and after i come sure that they need it.
There is no problem and no shame if i ask a considerable(non-biased) women gynaecologist to check my daugter's genitalia and see if they need it or not.
This is for better health and protection against diseases.
In EU you will get 10 years in jail you retarded pervert Posted by ispy (Member # 5871) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: This Hadith There are reports in the Sunnah which indicate that circumcision for women is prescribed in Islam. In Madeenah there was a woman who circumcised women and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her: “Do not go to the extreme in cutting; that is better for the woman and more liked by the husband.” Narrated by Abu Dawood (5271), classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.
For sure, prophet Muhammed meant "Clitoridotomy" not "Clitoridectomy" not "Infibulation"
Yes we all know he was retarded maybe we should cut a little bit of your dickhead Posted by ispy (Member # 5871) on :
quote: please educate yourself before further spreading stuff like this. You are very obviously lacking knowledge about the human body and how it functions.
First, let me say say I cant expect someone can say to, a someone ben studying Pharmacy and human body for 7 years, "you don't know anything about human body".
Second, I cant imagine that lots of muslims who have believe in the teachings of prophet muhammed and all prophets ( prophets jesus, prophet Mises prophet Abrahem.. etc.) misunderstand lots of stuff concerning their life.
we all know Muhammed from the year 600 he was just a human nothing els ,he said that himself
we are in 2006 now ,u idiot Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
I will be patient and i will bear all these cristicism and insults. I'll try to imitate prophet Jesus in his patience. I will forgive all of you because you dont understand and i will be again ready for all your questions and inquiries.
Actually, Medicine prove that this operation is so so beneficial for lots of women who need it . if you dont believe me just go and search for the truth yourself..
What will i gain to delude you??
Anyway, I love you all and I dont like suffering for you and your children.
i'm focusing in the word "Clitoridotomy", this is what i mean.
anyway, I ask God for giving you all the right way...
Posted by Charm el Feikh? (Member # 10243) on :
now please do me the courtesy of telling me where you read about all the disease etc... and if you will be willing to let your daughter reach the age of 18 to decide for herself as i have read that one of the differences between this procedure and FGM is that the patient elects to have the procedure done.
Posted by Snapdragon (Member # 9036) on :
OMG are you still on this disgusting subject??? 3 pages of nonsense!
Are you a woman? Do you know what it is like to be a woman? Have you ever had sexual relations with a woman?
Men are different Islamsweden. They get aroused from the mere sight of a woman. Women are different. We need carressing, fondling and TLC. Your idea of women with a big "clit" just need this ritual done regardless is farther than far-fetched.
I think you have a lot of issues to work out regarding women. Women have rights in Islam and you have NO right to tell them that they should or should not have FGM done on them. That includes your wife/daughter etc. Islam gave them rights. This backwards custom is exactly that! An old custom spread throughout poor, uneducated, ignorant African and Middle Eastern countries. Fortunately, it is illegal in Egypt and is only found in the deep fellehan areas. God help all those little girls and young women that had to go through such awful torture because a fcuking MAN said it should be done. AND don't start in with Allah said this about it or Mohamed the prophet said that about it cause he did NOT!
QUOTE]Originally posted by islamsweden.org: I will be patient and i will bear all these cristicism and insults. I'll try to imitate prophet Jesus in his patience. I will forgive all of you because you dont understand and i will be again ready for all your questions and inquiries.
Actually, Medicine prove that this operation is so so beneficial for lots of women who need it . if you dont believe me just go and search for the truth yourself..
What will i gain to delude you??
Anyway, I love you all and I dont like suffering for you and your children.
i'm focusing in the word "Clitoridotomy", this is what i mean.
anyway, I ask God for giving you all the right way... [/QUOTE]
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
quote:Originally posted by Charm el Feikh?: islamsweden, i have read about it...
now please do me the courtesy of telling me where you read about all the disease etc... and if you will be willing to let your daughter reach the age of 18 to decide for herself as i have read that one of the differences between this procedure and FGM is that the patient elects to have the procedure done.
Oh! yes yes yes charm. I think you are the only one who gets me.. You are really intelligent... I said before you are typical british! I like this type of people.
The web site you provide i think is so so so informative about what i mean.. you saved my efforts in explaining that operation. this is what prophet muhammed told people more than 1400 yrs ago..
I will leave the choice for my daughter after explaining the matter to her.
btw,I will rate you as 5 star member for this post Posted by sara_uk (Member # 11454) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: this is what prophet muhammed told people more than 1400 yrs ago..
I will leave the choice for my daughter after explaining the matter to her.
[/QB]
what your evidance that the prophet said about this thing?? there are no hadith support this also if it was from the suna you would see saudi the first to do this but saudi do not do this. please before claiming anything about the prophet peace be upon him, show your evidance.
Posted by cHiMpSs (Member # 11270) on :
THE MFI PAMPHLET SERIES, initiated by the Minaret of Freedom Institute aims to make widely available, at a minimal cost, a summary of authentic Islamic positions on important issues of the day. These pamphlets are directed to a general audience, yet present positions backed by scholarly research presented elsewhere either in academic papers or conferences or based on opinions issued by qualified scholars.
A war is raging, with extremists on both sides, over the issue of circumcision. On one side are fanatic secularists whose antipathy to religion has induced them to engage in a crusade against all forms of circumcision, including male circumcision, as a form of child abuse. On the other side are ignorant traditionalists who have ascribed to religious belief cultural traditions involving horrific forms of female genital mutilation (FGM, which they defend as a form of "female circumcision"). In between the extremes are many well-meaning people confused about the actual nature of the scientific evidence and the religious prescriptions regarding all sorts of practices involving any form of cutting in the genital areas.
In this pamphlet we shall concentrate on female genital mutilation. Male circumcision is clearly a Muslim tradition. Although it is not prescribed in the Qur'an, it was definitely approved of by the Prophet and he was himself circumcised. The beneficial health consequences of male circumcision are widely known, although some medical groups have begun to waver as to whether they are sufficiently great to justify the fact that infants are circumcised "against their will." We leave this debate for another time and place and mention it here only so that the lay reader may be aware that there is a broader context to the debate over female genital mutilation, which is the debate over whether any form of infant mutilation, including male circumcision constitutes child abuse. We restrict ourselves here to the subject of female genital mutilation and leave the debates over male circumcision and the piercing of infant girl's ears to another time and place.
A concise discussion of the main subject requires a detailed prolog to clarify some issues regarding both the nature of Islamic law and the medical terms used to identify the various forms of FGM. Understanding the background of the matter will permit the reader to understand the Islamic position on this question.
It must be understood that Islamic law has a well-defined tradition of jurisprudence. The sources of Islamic law include both revelation and reason. The efforts of scholars to attain understanding of the sharî`ah (i.e., the Divine Law) through various tools (which we shall not detail here) is called ijtihâd.
One fundamental of the Islamic law is that what is not prohibited is allowed. This makes for a great deal of tolerance in the religious law. As a result of this tolerance many pre-Islamic practices were not immediately eradicated by Islam. When such practices came to be unpopular (or unfashionable) in future centuries, the tolerance of Islamic jurisprudence was mischaracterized by those inimical to Islam as "backward." It was as if someone from a genteel class of society were to condemn America's toleration for body piercing among its young people as proof of the "barbarism" of American law. It would be wise to remember that there is a great burden of proof that Islam puts upon those who wish to prohibit a practice, and that the requirement for such proof is a strength of the Islamic law. Toleration is a strength, not a weakness.
In this discussion I shall refer to any form of permanent cutting the genitals as "genital mutilation." Some may feel this is prejudicing the case, since the words certainly sound pejorative. I think the term is fair, however, since the purpose of all the procedures under discussion–and the purpose of male circumcision and of the now commonly practiced forms of body piercing, including the piercing of the ears done by almost every Western female–is unquestionably to mutilate those parts of the body cut or pierced. The issue of interest, then, is not whether mutilation is involved but rather whether it is religiously (or morally) and/or medically desirable or contraindicated.
Although there is no reference to circumcision at all in the Qur'an, there is a well-established tradition of male circumcision in Islam as a "sunnah" act. In the Abrahamic tradition this act is understood as a fulfillment of a covenant with God, but there are numerous health reasons for the practice. There is no mandate at all for female circumcision, however, neither in the Qur'an, the traditional reports (called hadith), nor medical theory.
Although female circumcision is not mandated, one tradition of disputed authenticity permits (but does not encourage) the removal of a minuscule segment of skin from the female prepuce, provided no harm is done:
A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina [Madîna]. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said to her: 'Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.'–Sunan Abu Dawûd, Book 41, #5251. One does not want to make too much of this tradition, as it is classified as "weak" by Abu Dawud (the compiler) himself. Nonetheless, it clearly forbids severity in circumcision and bases such limitation on both the potential to harm the woman and the potential to make her less desirable to her husband. Yet, despite the restriction against severity, the Prophet did not here prohibit circumcision completely. Permitting such a ritual constitutes an act of tolerance by Islamic law for pre-Islamic practices, and may be overruled by the Islamic prohibition against harmful acts. Consider, for example, that Islamic law protects a woman's right to sexual enjoyment, as demonstrated by the fact that a woman has the right to divorce on the grounds that her husband does not provide sexual satisfaction. It follows that Islamic law prohibits clitorodectomy (partial or complete removal of the clitoris) or infibulation (excision of part or all of the external genitalia and stitching/narrowing of the vaginal opening), or any genital mutilation which impairs the woman's ability to enjoy sexual relations. Such prohibitions are consistent with the hadithic warning against severity in female circumcision.
If the Islamic law does not mandate female genital mutilation and tolerates only the most mild form of circumcision (and that only if it produces no adverse effects in the child), then how does it come about that so many people from certain countries with large Muslim populations insist that savage acts which exceed these limits are not only permitted, but required by Islamic law? The answer becomes obvious when one realizes that Christians from many of these countries also insist that the tradition is mandated by their religion as well. People often confuse traditions rooted in local culture with religious requirements.
Immigrants from such countries now residing in the United States stand between the culture of their heritage and the American culture of their environment. They cannot and should not be expected to abandon their religion. There should be no doubt, however, that the young amongst them, at least, will be willing to abandon old-world cultural practices at odds with their adopted culture when such practices are unsupported by religion. (This is because they carry no cultural bias towards such practices. On the contrary, they may absorb biases against them from their adopted culture.)
For Muslims, cliterodectomy and infibulation should be considered harâm (prohibited) practices and opposition to it should be part of our ongoing mandate to fight against superstition and oppression. As to the mildest form of female circumcision, the risks to the girl's future ability to enjoy sexual relations with her husband must place it at best in the category of makrûh (disliked) practices. Since it has neither hygienic nor religious value, there is no justification for Muslims to engage in this painful and potentially harmful practice and it would be best to avoid it completely.
The Egyptian Controversy Over Circumcising Girls By B. Chernitsky*. In recent months, the Egyptian government has been waging a television and newspaper campaign denouncing the practice of circumcising girls, also known as female genital mutilation. [1] This campaign is the latest round in a long-standing dispute over the issue, and has taken the form of articles and public activities, such as the June 2003 Cairo conference organized by the Egyptian National Council for Childhood and Motherhood and attended by Egyptian First Lady Suzanne Mubarak.
The practice involves the excision of the external genitalia, most often the clitoris. According to demographic surveys conducted in Egypt in 1995 and 2001, 97 percent of married women of childbearing age had been circumcised. 100-130 million girls have been circumcised in Africa – a figure that grows by another million each year worldwide.
Three main camps are embroiled in the controversy: reformists – government and social figures – who are opposed to the practice; Islamists who support it; and various religious figures, some from Egypt's religious establishment, who take no definitive stand on the issue. The following report highlights the three positions.
I. The Reformists – Against Circumcising Girls First Lady Suzanne Mubarak: 'Women's Humanity Must No Longer be Forfeit' The Cairo conference of June 21-23 2003 – organized by the National Council for Childhood and Motherhood and attended by representatives of Egyptian and European non-governmental organizations and of the UN (including UNICEF) – focused primarily on the legal aspects of the battle against the practice of circumcising girls. Also participating were delegates from 28 Arab and African countries where the practice is common, as well as international experts. Participants said that circumcision is an indignity for women, results in illness and emotional trauma, and has no basis in Islamic religious texts.
In her keynote address, Suzanne Mubarak, Egypt's First Lady and head of the professional advisory committee to the National Council for Childhood and Motherhood, labeled circumcising girls a human rights violation, saying, "Women's humanity must no longer be forfeit." [2]
Chief Justice Khalil: 'Circumcision - A Criminal Offense Sanctioned by the Authorities' Khalil Mustafa Khalil, chief justice of the Misdemeanors Court in Cairo's Al-Maadi district, called circumcising girls "a criminal offense sanctioned by the authorities" and "criminal behavior that matches all legal descriptions of premeditated crimes of injury." Khalil claimed that circumcising girls also violates a legal ban on exposing or touching genitalia other than for medical purposes. [3]
Dr. Mumtaz Abd Al-Wahab, a mental-illness expert at Cairo University, defined circumcising girls as "a kind of violence against women" and listed a series of emotional repercussions of the practice. First, he said, circumcision is the source of many mental illnesses and complexes, which can lead to what he calls a "mental divorce" or "divorce [of silence]." Second, he added, circumcising girls mutilates the genitals and causes emotional distress for the girl, who believes the procedure is a punishment; she senses that she is a "bad girl" and her parents don't love her. Third, the girl develops a sense of inferiority when she discerns the difference between the genitalia of each gender. [4]
At the conference, Egyptian Medical Association head Dr. Hamdi Al-Sayyed explained the physical risks to women's health posed by circumcision. He said that those who perform the procedure usually lack surgical expertise and use inadequate methods to stop the bleeding. He added that poor medical practices could cause blood poisoning, tetanus, liver disease, AIDS, or even death, and that a circumcised woman might experience pain during sexual relations, causing a marital crisis. [5]
Former Al-Azhar Sheikh: 'Nothing Religious, Moral, or Medical Requires Circumcising Girls'
Former Sheikh of Al-Azhar Mahmoud Shaltout [6] addressed the legal and religious aspects of the issue in his book "Fatwas – Research on the Problems of the Modern Muslim in Private and Public Life." [7] Shaltout asserted that unlike male circumcision, circumcising girls has no religious or medical justification. He pointed to a general religious principle forbidding inflicting pain on a living creature except when the benefit outweighs the pain.
According to Shaltout, male circumcision benefits the man's health, since the foreskin provides a fertile medium for secretions that can cause infection. Therefore, male circumcision is required by Islamic law, but this criterion is lacking for circumcising girls
Shaltout refutes the claim made by many physicians that circumcision affects women's sexual urges. A woman's sexual urges, he writes, is influenced only by her body build and the strength or weakness of her glands. Proof of this, he says, is the inappropriate sexual practices of some women who have been circumcised. In Shaltout's view, the entire issue is contingent upon the people, the environment, education, and the amount of supervision. He concludes, "Nothing, whether religious, moral, or medical, requires circumcising girls or commands its necessity…"
Egyptian Mother and Child Health Organization head Dr. Muhammad Fayyadh, an expert in women's diseasesand a campaigner against circumcising girls who has also written a book on the subject, [8] holds a similar view. In an article that appeared November 2, 2002 in the Egyptian weekly Roz Al-Yousuf, he called on "the Egyptian Health Minister, the Physician's Association, the Supreme Court, Egyptian mothers, and the associations for women's [rights] in Egypt" to abolish the practice because it has no religious, moral, or medical basis. In his article, titled "In the Name of the Mothers of Egypt: Stop the Crime That is Carried Out to Cries of Joy and Calls of Jubilation!" Dr. Fayyadh wrote, " Medicine has moral values, the most prominent of which is that no surgery must be carried out unless it is of medical benefit, and does not cause physical damage." [9]
Possible Actions Against the Practice of Circumcising Girls The Cairo conference also addressed methods for publicly opposing the practice of circumcising girls, and the main speaker on this topic was National Council for Childhood and Motherhood Secretary-General Moushira Khattab, who proposed two approaches. The first is to promote legislation that sets criteria for assessing the physical damage caused to the circumcised girl and deciding what compensation is due her, [10] and the second is to promote education to discourage the spread of the practice.
Halima Warzazi, a UN representative to the conference, said that education was the most effective weapon in the war against circumcising girls "because it answers the community's need to cling to its cultural tradition." [11]
In an interview with the French-language weekly Al-Ahram Hebdo, Moushira Khattab described how her organization used educational means to fight the practice of circumcising girls in Egypt's villages: "To change people's mentality, in every village we worked through the village leaders, such as the village head, the sheikh, [local] leading clerics, or anyone else the people would listen to and trust. Through these people, we hope to reach the families." [12]
II. The Islamists – Proponents of Circumcising Girls
'Circumcision is the Merit of Girls' The religious basis and legitimacy for circumcising girls has always been the focal point of the debate over this practice. Most proponents support their position by pointing to two central – and, in their view, generally accepted – Islamic traditions. One is based on the Prophet Muhammad's dictum that "[circumcising girls] is the merit of girls" and the other recalling the Prophet's words to the circumciser Umm 'Atiyya, "Circumcise girls, but do not exaggerate [in circumcising] as [this way of performing the circumcision] is best liked by the husband and makes [the wife's] face radiant in the best possible way. " [13]
Physicians with Islamist viewpoints also support circumcising girls on the basis of this religious commentary. Many of these opinions were quoted by journalist Abd Al-Rahman Abu 'Auf in an article for the Egyptian Islamist weekly Al-Haqiqa. [14]
For example, Dr. Munir Muhammad Fawzy, a specialist in gynecology and obstetrics at 'Ein Shams University Medical School, cites the following traditions as backing for his support of the practice: "The Prophet [Muhammad] commanded women to perform circumcision using the expression, 'Perform circumcision for girls.'" This phrase, he says, includes a clear endorsement of circumcision under specific circumstances, while understanding the difficulty and complexity of the issue regarding girls: "Removing the entire organ that causes the woman pleasure clearly contradicts the pure Sunna [tradition of the Prophet], because this is likely to cause disease and emotional complications to girls, and thus prevent them from realizing their natural rights. Conversely, not performing the circumcision is likely [to] cause girls infections and sometimes even diseases." [15]
Dr. Ahmad Suleiman of Cairo University: 'Circumcising a Girl Brings Modesty, Honor, and Emotional Balance'
Similar views are expressed by experts on Islamic law, such as Dr. Muhammad Abu Leila, lecturer on Islamic research at Al-Azhar University, and Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Suleiman, lecturer on Islamic law at Cairo University.
Dr. Abu Leila notes that circumcising girls is not an innovation that deviates from religious law (Bid'a), but a custom passed down from generation to generation since the days of Abraham: "The Prophet [Muhammad] reaffirmed this custom, and we inherited it as Muslims thousands of years later. [The Prophet] set some humane and scientific conditions for performing it so that we do not harm the humanity of the wife and so that the husband will not become exhausted after having sexual relations with his wife." [16]
According to Dr. Suleiman, the fact that Muslims have been practicing this tradition for thousands of years eliminates any claims that it is detrimental to sexuality. He expressed his amazement over the argument that circumcision causes frigidity in women, saying that throughout the many generations that Muslims have practiced circumcising girls, they have been enjoying natural lives as married couples. Moreover, he says, "circumcising a girl brings modesty, honor, and emotional balance." [17]
Circumcising Girls Prevents AIDS and Prostitution Intellectuals who favor circumcising girls say that failure to do so will lead to the spread of Western phenomena such as AIDS and prostitution. Some intellectuals accuse the West of having an ulterior motive in opposing circumcising girls: to spread immoral values throughout the Muslim world.
Islamic writer Dr. Ahmed Abd Al-Rahman shares this suspicion about the West's true motives in calling for a ban on the tradition: "Not circumcising girls opens the gate to the spread of depravity and prostitution, as happened in the West as a result of ignoring this normal, human demand. Do we want to be like the West? The commercials [against circumcising girls] broadcast on television these days are repulsive because they contradict Islamic law… Their purpose is to destroy the Muslim family and degrade Egyptian society."
Al-Rahman adds that the campaign against the custom is an abhorrent form of compliance with American pressure in the framework of the so-called "renewed religious discourse." In his view, it is destruction and not renewal: "With strange submission, we do what was forced upon us by the Beijing and Cairo conferences [for] the family and population. This is, without a doubt, blind surrender." [18]
The Attempt to Prevent Circumcising Girls is a Western Conspiracy Dr. Muhammad Abu Leila spoke out against both the campaign and the West, which he says, by opposing circumcising both boys and girls, is promoting the spread of AIDS: "The media campaign we are witnessing today is nothing more than part of an entire conspiracy to destroy the framework of Islamic society. The ban on circumcising girls is preparation for a ban on circumcising boys. The West does not recognize circumcision at all, neither for girls nor for boys, and medical insurance today for infants in America does not cover circumcising a boy. The expense falls to the family if it decides to perform it, which leads to the spread of AIDS." [19]
Prominent Islamic preacher Sheikh Mustafa Al-Azhari echoes claims about Western involvement in the media campaign against circumcising girls: "This is a dubious campaign whose only aim is to spread promiscuity among the Muslims… The [Egyptian] media should not have collaborated in this crime, which is being planned by the U.S. and backed by the West…" [20]
Circumcising Girls Prevents Unnatural Sexual Pleasure Among the proponents of circumcising girls are Islamists who rely on medical, rather than religious, support for their arguments. The practice, they say, is beneficial to women's health, since it facilitates washing the genitalia and contributes to normal sexual relations.
A surgical specialist at Al-Azhar University, Dr. Muhammad Rif'at Al-Bawwab, provides an example, saying that women can wash and clean the genital area more easily if part of their sexual organ has been removed. In addition, he says, the clitoris protrudes more than other parts of a woman's genitalia, and "this protrusion causes it to rub against clothing and other things, which diverts the attention of the adolescent girl toward unnatural pleasure that is likely to make her addicted to it in an abnormal and damaging way… After marriage, it is difficult to prevent this from happening to a woman who has become accustomed to it. [The only way to deal with this situation is] to conduct sexual relations in an abnormal way, in which her clitoris is rubbed forcefully, as she has become accustomed [thus leading to her moral degradation].
"Therefore, the removal of the clitoris during circumcision greatly reduces [the chances] of this occurring. In this way, the woman remains unaware, and she finds enjoyment with her husband in the natural way, [only by] the male organ rubbing the woman's vagina and cervix, which are the source of her pleasure [and not via the clitoris]." [21]
III. The Religious Establishment – No Definitive Stand Rather than openly object to the practice of circumcising girls, high-ranking clerics in Egypt's religious establishment leave the decision to physicians. This, according to Al-Azhar Sheikh Muhammad Sayyed Al-Tantawi, is because there is no authoritative religious text on which clerics can rely. [22]
This opinion is shared by Egyptian mufti Nassar Farid Wassal, who claims that circumcision is a social custom: "The Sunna neither requires nor forbids circumcision. Islam left [the decision] on the issue to [those who are] knowledgeable and reliable – that is, medical specialists." [23]
Holding a different view is Sheikh Yussef Al-Qaradhawi, one of Sunni Islam's most influential clerics and a spiritual leader of the Muslim Brotherhood. Al-Qaradhawi favors partial circumcision for women as a moderate, just, and reasonable solution best suited to reality. Al-Qaradhawi favors leaving the decision to the girl's parents. In a Fatwa on this issue, he wrote, "Anyone who thinks that circumcision is the best way to protect his daughters should do it… I support this, particularly in the period in which we live. [However], anyone who does not [circumcise girls] is not thought to have sinned, because this is nothing more than merit for girls, as stated by religious scholars and by one of the Hadiths…" [24]
* B. Chernitsky is a research fellow at MEMRI.
IVE HAD DEBATES WITH MY HUSBAND OVER THIS AND CLEARELY HE DOESNT LIKE THIS BUT IVE RECENTLY FOUND OUT HIS SITERS WERE CIRCUMSISED I HAD A REALLY BAD FIGHT WWITH HIM IM GLAD NOW IM NOT OF HIS CITY WHERE ITS PRACTISED OPENLY ...BUT THEN THAT WAS 40YRS AGO BUT HE SAYS THEY STILL ARE DOING IT IN OTHER FAMILYS ,HOW DO U FEEL ON THIS SUBJECT AND IF YOUR A CONVERT AND THEY ASK THIS OFF U WHAT WUD YOU DO ....
Posted by Charm el Feikh? (Member # 10243) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: I will leave the choice for my daughter after explaining the matter to her.
i am glad to hear that. no matter what we believe, we want the best for our children... and its a good parent who accepts the fact that we cant live their life for them, only offer as much guidance as we can. Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: you saved my efforts in explaining that operation. this is what prophet muhammed told people more than 1400 yrs ago..
FGM was practiced by Pagan Arabs long before Mohamed was born. IF the prophet commented on it (which we don't know since all of the ahadeeth in question are classified as weak, a fact you conveniently ignore!) it would be very likely to assume that he tried to eliminate this custom instead of promoting it further.
The Qur'an and Islamic history are full of examples where a rule was gradually introduced since otherwise people might not have accepted it. So it would be logical to assume that he would try to limit the harm people were doing to women / girls, but maybe he could not tell them to stop it altogether at that point in time. I seriously doubt that Mohamed thought the majority of women needed such a procedure and ordered people to perform it.
Besides, there's another faulty logic in your argument. The fatwas that promote female circumcision are very rarely concerned with medical conditions or women's health. Instead, they very clearly state that the purpose of female circumcision is the reduction of the woman's libido. If you've read those fatwas you must be well aware of this, but you're trying to fool and distract us with apologetics and nonsense about medical conditions.
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
Duh!
Dalia and Snapdragon , do you really and honestly understand the all types of females circumscion??? I'm asking because i get bore of explaining.
Sarah_uk, some scholars says that the Hadiths is weak and some scholars says that the Hadiths is strongly authentic. According to my little knowledge in anaysis and classifying the Hadith, this is an authentic one.
Charm, actually as i mentioned before. you have a unique pesonality!
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: According to my little knowledge in anaysis and classifying the Hadith, this is an authentic one.
And you claim you've read the article I've posted?!? LOL.
Posted by sara_uk (Member # 11454) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Duh!
Sarah_uk, some scholars says that the Hadiths is weak and some scholars says that the Hadiths is strongly authentic. According to my little knowledge in anaysis and classifying the Hadith, this is an authentic one.
and how did you reach this conclusion?? anway lets say the hadith is authentic it just has advice for people who do them but not an order from prophet that it should be done. so why do it?? if it was a must then the prophet should had said so clearly. you know that there are alot of divorces because of this because the women does not enjoy sex and therfore she will be so cold and that will affect the relationship . why anyone want to put thier kids fate through this??i know alot of girls who blame thier cold feeling for this and they say if they had a choice they will not do them.
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
Actually, I get bored.
Anyway, again I asked u, Sarah, Dalia everyone, do you really and honestly understand the all types of females circumscion????
BTw, Sarah, I completely Condemn the pharaonic circumcions which is still done in Egypt. I think you mean this type.
please please please please please please please please please please please please please, When you are talking about Female circumcion, just Identify the type...
I'm against all types except one type which is called Sunna circumcion and this is valid for some females who needs it.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: teaching abstinance may be not enough to reach chastity.. If they cut a very very small peace of clitoris, may this help?
First of all, the clitoris is actually a longer organ than most people think. Most of it is hidden far inside. Even if you cut a woman's clitoris off, she still has the rest of her genitals where she can feel pleasure.
But the main thing though is last time I checked, the Ko'ran stated that chastity is the responsibility of the individual and it mentioned absolutely NOTHING about mutilating a woman's genitals to prevent promiscuity.
Indeed the Ko'ran also stated that a woman has a right to enjoy sexual pleasure from her husband, how can she if she is literally scarred for life in that area??
Posted by cHiMpSs (Member # 11270) on :
when i posted this thread i didnt think id learn so much about what my clitoris is intailed im amazed a little thinkg there that can mean so much to awoman and loads of threads are popping up now ,what a lovely wanted bit of organ you are attached to me thanx all again .i shall treaure my clitoris with special care its 41yers old i think there is life in the old dog yet ,,what youthink ?? Posted by simpri (Member # 11573) on :
Absolutely, it's there for a reason, enjoy it, it seems that some think we should not, but I'm not ashamed to admit I do:)
Posted by simpri (Member # 11573) on :
[/qb][/QUOTE]Hey, Dlaia Calm On. I may hear wrong informtion and I say that. But I'm talking about those women who have larger clit more than normal.. Most of women dont have this large size. So, this operation doesnt concern lots of women... [/QB][/QUOTE]
From some of the posts it sounds as if there is a fear that it does affect lots of women, and potentially young girls too, so it may be carried out indiscrimately through choice, not because there is a health reason for it.
Maybe those women enjoy even better sex having a larger clitoris. No man who is a considerate lover would ever complain about the size of the clitoris, which does not get in the way of intercourse being above entry point, and would be only too pleased if his partner is easily aroused rather than unresponsive.
Posted by QueenBee (Member # 9378) on :
Dalia said: "Besides, there's another faulty logic in your argument. The fatwas that promote female circumcision are very rarely concerned with medical conditions or women's health. Instead, they very clearly state that the purpose of female circumcision is the reduction of the woman's libido. If you've read those fatwas you must be well aware of this, but you're trying to fool and distract us with apologetics and nonsense about medical conditions. "
Dalia, those fatwas are quite obviously constructed by men who are too impotent to please one wife, let alone 4. This whole concept of an insatiable woman is pretty stupid - any guy who knows his stuff can work a woman out, no problem, unless a physchological or medical condition prevents orgasm - which is very rarely seen in conjunction with high libido, but rather occurs most often in tandem with overall frigidity. These "imams" should be offering personalized counseling for those men who've not yet discovered the benefits of their own tongues, rather than trying to encourage the destruction of a woman's anatomy in order to deal with men's "shortcomings."
or is it that they don't want women to have any enjoyment in life, which is what I suspect.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
For the record, I believe that genital mutilation in BOTH males and females as it originated in Africa was done for the original purpose of distinguishing ones sex further.
Many of the parts they cut in the circucision ritual are homologous structures of the opposite sex. For example, the forskin of a male's penis is homologous to a female's labia minora (inner lips) and a female's clitoris is homologous to a male's penis. That is, if a fetus were to develop into a male the same organ that would develop into penis would have become a clitoris if it was to become female and vice versa.
In many African cultures, circumcision is practiced as a rite of passage into adulthood and for boys it is seen as a way of becoming a man just as for girls it is seen as a way of becoming a woman. Children are viewed as being essentially androgynous that is having traits of both sexes, but with circumcision the traits of the opposite sex are ritually purged.
It is only in the extreme case of female infibulation (the total removal of the outer genitalia of a female) that I see as being more recent and a halmark of patriarchy (male domination) where in this practice ensures that the female remain "chaste".
It is the infibulation that I am totally against since not all FGM as it is practiced in most parts of Africa are as damaging or scarring as this.
Posted by lovingspirit (Member # 11660) on :
realize most of people adding comments to this topic are non egyptians.... i wonder why..., why do others have such obsessed ideas about female sexuality... that is exagerated...women in egypt are doing just fine, should there be anything done regarding circumm...its done only in the villages... which i dont think you are part of... Posted by Charm el Feikh? (Member # 10243) on :
quote:Originally posted by lovingspirit: most of people adding comments to this topic are non egyptians.... i wonder why
er... most people here are not egyptian! at the last count there was 3 i think.
anyway... i think thats a bit of a 'not my problem' attitude isnt it?
thats like me saying "bah... its only happening in lebanon... leave em to it"
if something is wrong it needs to be stopped no matter where its happening.
Posted by lovingspirit (Member # 11660) on :
Charm, three are not the majority, I am not taking any attitude, I am not comparing the massacre of lebanon to female circumcision, nothing is wrong in egypt it was never raised among them because it only happen as i said in small villages among illerate people who have no education or awareness...I have lived most of my life in egypt and believe me i know what i am saying,,, and if anything needs to be acted upon its rather the awareness between this poor people over there... as for the rest ... they do not have to fear " no one will kidnap a foreigner to circumcize them (sorry for the mispelling) believe me egyptians have far more serious problem to care about than about that specific one, I hope you are not offended by my being straight forward Posted by cHiMpSs (Member # 11270) on :
whats it mean when u find out but your husband doesnt know that hes trying to check of a fatwah on circumscision of his wife and ablution after sexual intercourse im born muslim but i have never had to deal with this im not sure and by the way i got asystem to check what he does or any one onhere but im the only one know of it ,i come home and im look and find my husband is trying to do some type of fatwah on me i think ..any help wud be appreciated
Posted by lovingspirit (Member # 11660) on :
correction I meant illiterate (again forgive my spelling I dont have time to go through spell check now lol)
Posted by Charm el Feikh? (Member # 10243) on :
quote:Originally posted by lovingspirit: Charm, three are not the majority,
i know.. you said that its mostly non egyptians posting here and asked why... i was telling you why... there are hardly any egyptian members, 7ayat counted them last week, only a handful.
I am not comparing the massacre of lebanon to female circumcision,[/QUOTE]
i know youre not.. i was making A comparison, not THAT particular comparison though.
I hope you are not offended by my being straight forward [/QUOTE]
not at all!
Posted by lovingspirit (Member # 11660) on :
I think speak to him openly chimp,,
Posted by cHiMpSs (Member # 11270) on :
very hard beleive me ive married a arab of a different culture to whati have known in cairo and alexandria hes egyptian but hes sinai they really think diffrent to my other friends and he wont tellme truth i wud just like to know the ruling on fatwahs and can a husband order on his wife please ..thanx
Posted by lovingspirit (Member # 11660) on :
i dont know dear i hope someone specialized would be able to answer you. good luck Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Actually, I get bored.
Anyway, again I asked u, Sarah, Dalia everyone, do you really and honestly understand the all types of females circumscion????
BTw, Sarah, I completely Condemn the pharaonic circumcions which is still done in Egypt. I think you mean this type.
please please please please please please please please please please please please please, When you are talking about Female circumcion, just Identify the type...
I'm against all types except one type which is called Sunna circumcion and this is valid for some females who needs it.
Your patronizing tone is totally out of place.
Just a few days ago you were writing about women who should be circumcized because otherwise they would "need ten men to fulfill their lust", you were trying to tell us that a "large clitoris" (whatever that is supposed to be, you haven't managed to define this so far) can cause several symptoms and desases and other utterly bizarre stuff that mocks reason, logic, science and justice.
And now within just a few days you've miraculously turned into an expert who needs to "educate" us?!? If you believe anybody reading this thread still takes you seriously after some of the stuff you wrote you're certainly deluding yourself.
I have no need to be "educated" by you about the different types of circumcision since I've educated myself about the subject long before you ever even heard of it or decided to read up on it, I'm familiar with the information contained in the texts and links you've posted.
If you were interested in what others think instead of trying to force your personal theories on everyone, you would have checked out the previous discussion on the subject and would have noticed that I posted some short cut and pastes as well as some links to sources that explain the different methods.
The reason I haven't replied to your posts "explaining" to us that those different methods exist and in which way they differ is because I believe this to be completely irrelevant for this discussion.
What you are trying to do here is pretty much the same thing Kamal did in the other thread; you are trying to construct a theory - that there is the *good Sunnah circumcision* and the *bad FGM* and that they have nothing to do with each other. You're trying to convince us that lots of women need to have their private parts altered and cut and that supposedly the prophet knew about this and ordered people to do it.
This theory is complete and utter nonsense. First of all there is no such thing as "Sunnah circumcision" since female circumcision is NOT an Islamic practice. Secondly, the millions of girls and women who are being mutilated in the name of religion do not have this supposed "Sunnah circumcision" done to them as you probably know very well if you've read all the texts you've been referring to.
I think what's going on is the following ... You came on this thread and knew nothing about the subject. Then you got curious and decided to read up on it, so you straight went to Islam-QA and maybe similar sites where you found fatwas saying that female circumcision is Sunnah. Since you do not ever question anything written on there, you have strongly resisted to take into account other opinions, proofs etc., be they scientific or religious. Instead you've come up with this *good Sunnah circumcision* versus *bad FGM* theory and you've tried to twist and bend all facts to fit this theory.
There is overwhelming evidence that all the ahadeeth regarding female circumcision are weak and can not be used to justify or promote it. Also there are many other things to indicate that such a practice is not compatible with Islamic teachings. But you ignore and reject all of this because there are one or two people on Islam-QA who've said the opposite and you desperately want to believe them.
I assume you also agree with the sheikhs on there that it's perfectly ok to manipulate women's private parts in order to limit their libido. So how does that fit in with the *circumcision for medical reasons* theory? It's clear that any kind of cutting that's done in order to manipulate women's libido is an invasive operation and has nothing to do with a medical condition. But I'm sure you'll come up with a way to justify that as well ...
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
im having trouble understanding how a hadith can be classified as weak by some and authentic by others!!
apart from that, i would like to know where in Torah, Gospels or Quran it says anything about FGM at all. I know male circumcision came from the time of Abraham and presumably is in the Torah, but not for women.
So, islamsweden, where does GOD say its right? not a hadith or some 'fatwa' please, but a real GOD given verse, thank you.
Dalia, as ever, great post!
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
Dalia,explaining the different types of fgm isnot releavant to the discusiion how??? YOu are really need to be educated how to discuss people. i get bored! You are trying to hide your weakness by adding long posts.
Ayisha, Sunna is a the second sacred miracle that Prophet Muhammed Gets. you cant take Quran alone without Sunnah. I wonder why did you say "Dalia, as ever, great post!"?? i dont see any great post! did u mean someone else called Dalia or who?
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
quote: originlally posted by Dalia The reason I haven't replied to your posts "explaining" to us that those different methods exist and in which way they differ is because I believe this to be completely irrelevant for this discussion.
Really! If you think so,I'm wasting my time in this discussion with you. Becasue my all posts are about this point??
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
Ayisha, Go and find the truth yourself, Consider me an ignorant. Go and search for the truth yourself!, Go and search for the truth, Go and search for the truth .
Dont make those people who oppose all religions and support Homosexulaity delude you..
Didnt you read my topic about prohibition of Homosexuality and how people support it saying that their friends are homo ? So, because their friends are homo, it's legal to carry out homsexualty.
From all your posts Dalia, I find that u dont have any religion. you are secular trying to criticise all religions. But you won't be able to convince people with your new religion.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Dalia,explaining the different types of fgm isnot releavant to the discusiion how??? YOu are really need to be educated how to discuss people. i get bored! You are trying to hide your weakness by adding long posts.
Sorry but Dalia is right. There may be different types but NONE OF THEM ARE FROM ISLAM which is the discussion we are having isnt it?? Any operation that is for medical reasons is NOT what we are discussing, YOU seem to have turned it to that instead of admitting FGM is NOT from islam, NOT sunnah and NOT obligatory.
quote: Ayisha, Sunna is a the second sacred miracle that Prophet Muhammed Gets. you cant take Quran alone without Sunnah. I wonder why did you say "Dalia, as ever, great post!"?? i dont see any great post! did u mean someone else called Dalia or who?
Did I mention Sunnah anywhere?? No, I mentioned Hadith. and i dont want to start an argument about hadith being sunnah, to me its totally different!! What do you mean I cant take Quran alone without sunnah????? so GODS WORDS are not enough? dont be rediculous! take off your blinkers and use your own brain.
Yes Dalias post was good, as they normally are, at least she has an OPEN mind and uses her brain to find answers.
quote: Ayisha, Go and find the truth yourself, Consider me an ignorant. Go and search for the truth yourself!, Go and search for the truth, Go and search for the truth .
Dont make those people who oppose all religions and support Homosexulaity delude you..
Didnt you read my topic about prohibition of Homosexuality and how people support it saying that their friends are homo ? So, because their friends are homo, it's legal to carry out homsexualty.
From all your posts Dalia, I find that u dont have any religion. you are secular trying to criticise all religions. But you won't be able to convince people with your new religion.
I found the TRUTH alhamdulillah!! I used my brain that God gave me to use, i verify things with that same brain. and where did homosexuality come into this discussion? did i miss that?
whether Dalia has any religion or not, she is in this discussion and obviously has you running around trying to 'prove' you are right. Thats not the way to convince people of anything is it? we all find our own way to the truth, not all 'truths' are found the same way.
The discussion is about FGM. You are trying to say its sunnah, its Islamic and its NOT. now you can carry on trying to convince people and you can carry on asking MEN for fatwas, which is only THEIR OPINION or you can look at GODS words to find the answer.
Now, as i said before, find me in Torah, Bible or Quran where GOD says FGM is obligatory and i will go and get it done!!!
Posted by Tibe (Member # 10253) on :
autch......no sharp objects anywhere near my "temple" Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
The reason for MALE circumcision, its a covenant between God and Abraham, which is why ALL Jews, (most) Christians and All Muslim MEN are circumsized
Genesis 17 9 Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."
Exodus 4 24 At a lodging place on the way, the LORD met {Moses} [b] and was about to kill him. 25 But Zipporah took a flint knife, cut off her son's foreskin and touched {Moses'} feet with it. [c] "Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me," she said. 26 So the LORD let him alone. (At that time she said "bridegroom of blood," referring to circumcision.)
Joshua 5 Circumcision at Gilgal 1 Now when all the Amorite kings west of the Jordan and all the Canaanite kings along the coast heard how the LORD had dried up the Jordan before the Israelites until we had crossed over, their hearts melted and they no longer had the courage to face the Israelites. 2 At that time the LORD said to Joshua, "Make flint knives and circumcise the Israelites again." 3 So Joshua made flint knives and circumcised the Israelites at Gibeath Haaraloth. [a] 4 Now this is why he did so: All those who came out of Egypt—all the men of military age—died in the desert on the way after leaving Egypt. 5 All the people that came out had been circumcised, but all the people born in the desert during the journey from Egypt had not. 6 The Israelites had moved about in the desert forty years until all the men who were of military age when they left Egypt had died, since they had not obeyed the LORD. For the LORD had sworn to them that they would not see the land that he had solemnly promised their fathers to give us, a land flowing with milk and honey. 7 So he raised up their sons in their place, and these were the ones Joshua circumcised. They were still uncircumcised because they had not been circumcised on the way. 8 And after the whole nation had been circumcised, they remained where they were in camp until they were healed. Acts 7 8Then he gave Abraham the covenant of circumcision. And Abraham became the father of Isaac and circumcised him eight days after his birth. Later Isaac became the father of Jacob, and Jacob became the father of the twelve patriarchs. Romans 2 25Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the[c] written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.
NO FEMALE CIRCUMCISION
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
Aha! egypt mad dot com I get it Thanks Ayisha have a nice day
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
then u used ur brain and quit the verses from Sunnah! then should i use my brain and oppose the Sunnah too??
So, why should one pray 5 prayers?? It's not in Quran then use ur brain and forget it.
why should one condemn Homosexuality?? my fiends are homosexual, then i shouldnt condemn..
then if God wants us to use our brain in religion, why did he send us the sacred books and prophets??
Actually, There is something wrong in Muslims not in islam.
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
1st one
Question: I would like to know more about female circumcision in Islam. I have read the ahadith where the Prophet told a woman how to perform it. I would like to know if it is optional or obligatory, and - if it is obligatory - whether there is a certain way to do it (what part should be cut?).
Answer:
Praise be to Allah. Ibn Qudamah (may Allah have mercy on him) said, in his book al-Mughni: "Circumcision is obligatory for men, and it is an honour for women, but it is not obligatory for them. This is the opinion of many scholars. (Imam) Ahmad said: For men it is more strictly required, but for women it is less strictly required." (al-Mughni 1/70).
Circumcision of the female consists of the removal of a part of the clitoris, which is situated above the opening of the urethra. The Sunnah is not to remove all of it, but only a part. (al-Mawsu‘ah al-Fiqhiyyah 19/28).
In this matter, it is wise to follow the interests of the female: if the clitoris is large, then part of it should be removed, otherwise it should be left alone. This size of the clitoris will vary from woman to woman, and there may be differences between those from hot climates and those from cold climates.
A hadith on the topic of female circumcision has been attributed to the Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon Him), according to which he said: "Circumcision is a Sunnah for men, and an honour for women," but there is some debate as to the authenticity of this hadith. See Silsilah al-Ahadith al-Da‘ifah by al-Albani, no. 1935.
How circumcision is to be performed is mentioned in the hadith narrated by Umm ‘Atiyah, may Allah be pleased with her, according to which a woman used to perform circumcisions in Madinah. The Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon Him) told her: "Do not abuse (i.e. do not go to extremes in circumcising); that is better for the woman and more liked by her husband." (Reported by Abu Dawud in al-Sunan, Kitab al-Adab; he said this hadith is da‘if).
The scholars’ opinions cited above should be sufficient explanation. And Allah knows best.
Islam Q&A Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid
2nd one
Question: Is there any evidence, such as a sahih hadeeth, that states that the prophet of Allah (Blessings and peace be upon him) had or allowed his wives and/or daughters to be circumcised in any shape or form?.
Answer: Praise be to Allaah.
We do not know of any hadeeth in which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) ordered that his wives or daughters be circumcised, but it is narrated that he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) advised a woman who did circumcision in Madeenah as to the proper way of circumcision. It was narrated by Abu Dawood (5271), al-Tabaraani in al-Awsat, and al-Bayhaqi in al-Shu’ab from Umm ‘Atiyyah al-Ansaariyyah that a woman used to do circumcision in Madeenah, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her: “Do not go to the extreme in cutting; that is better for the woman and more liked by the husband.” This hadeeth was classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.
According to another report: “Take only a little and do not go to extremes.”
It is also indicated by the general meaning of the evidence that has been narrated concerning circumcision, such as the hadeeth in al-Bukhaari (5891) and Muslim (527) from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him): I heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubes, trimming the moustache, cutting the nails and plucking the armpit hairs.”
In Saheeh Muslim (349) it is narrated from ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When a man sits between the four parts (arms and legs of his wife) and the two circumcised parts meet, then ghusl is obligatory.”
According to a report narrated by al-Tirmidhi (109) and elsewhere: “When the two circumcised parts meet…”
Al-Bukhaari used this phrase as a chapter heading.
Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: What is meant by this metaphor is the circumcised parts of the man and the woman.
Female circumcision is done by cutting a small part of the skin that looks like a rooster’s comb, above the exit of the urethra. The Sunnah is not to cut all of it, but rather a part of it. Al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah (19/28).
The Shaafa’is, the Hanbalis according to the well-known view of their madhhab, and others are of the view that circumcising women is obligatory. Many scholars are of the view that it is not obligatory in the case of women; rather it is Sunnah and is an honour for them.
But we would like to point out here that it has medical benefits to which attention should be paid, regardless of the difference of opinion among the scholars as to whether it is obligatory or mustahabb. This has been discussed in the answer to question no. 45528.
3rd one
Question: Is female circumcision sunnah or a bad practice? I read in a magazine that female circumcision in any form is a bad practice that is harmful from a medical point of view, and that it may sometimes lead to sterility. Is this correct?
Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.
Circumcising females is sunnah; it is neither a bad practice or harmful, if it is done within moderation. When extreme forms of female circumcision are carried out, harm may result.
Posted by Sneezer (Member # 6244) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: then if God wants us to use our brain in religion, why did he send us the sacred books and prophets??
You don't mean this, do you?
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
"Circumcision is obligatory for men, and it is an honour for women, but it is not obligatory for them.
We do not know of any hadeeth in which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) ordered that his wives or daughters be circumcised, but it is narrated that he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) advised a woman who did circumcision in Madeenah as to the proper way of circumcision. “Do not go to the extreme in cutting; that is better for the woman and more liked by the husband.” This hadeeth was classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.
Circumcising females is sunnah; it is neither a bad practice or harmful, if it is done within moderation. When extreme forms of female circumcision are carried out, harm may result.
not obligatory. And no evidence even in hadith that the prophets (pbuh) wives or daughters were ordered to, or even did, have it done.
Now please try to answer from GODS WORDS as I have asked twice before. What did GOD say about it?
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
try to answer me from God's word, why do u pray 5 times a day?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: then u used ur brain and quit the verses from Sunnah!
there are no 'verses', there are sayings and quotes passed down by men of what another man said and did, no GOD given verses.
quote: then should i use my brain and oppose the Sunnah too??
you should use your brain and question the hadith, apply it in the whole context of Quran-GODS WORDS
quote: So, why should one pray 5 prayers?? It's not in Quran then use ur brain and forget it.
it is in Quran:
002.144 YUSUFALI: We see the turning of thy face (for guidance to the heavens: now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque: Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is Allah unmindful of what they do.
002.149 YUSUFALI: From whencesoever Thou startest forth, turn Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque; that is indeed the truth from the Lord. And Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.
002.238 YUSUFALI: Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers, especially the Middle Prayer; and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind).
004.103 YUSUFALI: When ye pass (Congregational) prayers, celebrate Allah's praises, standing, sitting down, or lying down on your sides; but when ye are free from danger, set up Regular Prayers: For such prayers are enjoined on believers at stated times.
005.006 YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.
005.055 YUSUFALI: Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).
006.072 YUSUFALI: "To establish regular prayers and to fear Allah: for it is to Him that we shall be gathered together."
007.170 YUSUFALI: As to those who hold fast by the Book and establish regular prayer,- never shall We suffer the reward of the righteous to perish.
011.114 YUSUFALI: And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night: For those things, that are good remove those that are evil: Be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord):
017.078 YUSUFALI: Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading: for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony.
017.079 YUSUFALI: And pray in the small watches of the morning: (it would be) an additional prayer (or spiritual profit) for thee: soon will thy Lord raise thee to a Station of Praise and Glory!
022.026 YUSUFALI: Behold! We gave the site, to Abraham, of the (Sacred) House, (saying): "Associate not anything (in worship) with Me; and sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or stand up, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).
024.058 YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! let those whom your right hands possess, and the (children) among you who have not come of age ask your permission (before they come to your presence), on three occasions: before morning prayer; the while ye doff your clothes for the noonday heat; and after the late-night prayer: these are your three times of undress: outside those times it is not wrong for you or for them to move about attending to each other: Thus does Allah make clear the Signs to you: for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.
029.045 YUSUFALI: Recite what is sent of the Book by inspiration to thee, and establish regular Prayer: for Prayer restrains from shameful and unjust deeds; and remembrance of Allah is the greatest (thing in life) without doubt. And Allah knows the (deeds) that ye do.
048.029 YUSUFALI: Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.
062.009 YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! When the call is proclaimed to prayer on Friday (the Day of Assembly), hasten earnestly to the Remembrance of Allah, and leave off business (and traffic): That is best for you if ye but knew!
073.002 YUSUFALI: Stand (to prayer) by night, but not all night,-
073.006 YUSUFALI: Truly the rising by night is most potent for governing (the soul), and most suitable for (framing) the Word (of Prayer and Praise).
quote: why should one condemn Homosexuality?? my fiends are homosexual, then i shouldnt condemn..
again you bring up homosexuality! why? what has that got to do with this discussion?
quote: then if God wants us to use our brain in religion, why did he send us the sacred books and prophets??
They were sent to tell us the right way, they all had the same message. God in His wisdom made humans the ONLY part of creation with free will, so you have the law, and the choice to follow it, in the law are clear guides to the punishment or reward of following the law or not, but He gave us a brain to make up our own minds, NOT to follow blindly.
quote: Actually, There is something wrong in Muslims not in islam.
I absolutely agree there!!
Islam is beautiful and pure, muslims are human and therefore given to error!
still cant find any of Gods words about FGM then??? Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: try to answer me from God's word, why do u pray 5 times a day?
see previous post Posted by cHiMpSs (Member # 11270) on :
IM STILL NOT GOT AN ANSWER CAN YOUR HUSBAND FIND OR DO FATWAH ON YOU ABOUT CIRCUMSCISION OR WHAT ABOUT THAT I KNOW U HAVE TO WAsh AFER SEXUAL RELATIONS AND WASHING OF HAIR BUT ONE DAY ME DIDNT WASH ME HAIR EVERY WHERE ELSE I DID AND U HAVE TO BE HAIRLESS AS WELL AND IM STRICKT ON THAT BUT REALLY IM BLOODY FED UP BEING LOOKED AND SPYED ON ITS FUCKING MY HEAD .SO WHATS THE BASIC FOUNDATION ON YUR HUBBY TRYING FOR A FATWAH I FOUND HIM LOGGED LOOKING I QUESTION HIM BUT WELL ITS THE SAME OLE QUESTION ''WHAT U SAY I DONT UNDERSTAND .aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
not mentioned that they r 5. where did u get that no?it's not from Quran
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
002.238 YUSUFALI: Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers, especially the Middle Prayer; and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind). ASR which is the middle prayer, this shows also there are an odd number of prayers with it being MIDDLE prayer.
011.114 YUSUFALI: And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night: For those things, that are good remove those that are evil: Be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord): FAJR, ISHA, MAGHRIB
017.078 YUSUFALI: Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading: for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony. MAGHRIB, FAJR
017.079 YUSUFALI: And pray in the small watches of the morning: (it would be) an additional prayer (or spiritual profit) for thee: soon will thy Lord raise thee to a Station of Praise and Glory! SHOWS ADDITIONAL PRAYER, NOT OF THE 5 OBLIGATORY
why do you keep saying its not in Quran?
why dont you answer my question?
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
actually there is no verse in Quran saying that The prayers are 5. This is an translation of an explanation of Quran thorugh Sunnah.
If you search the whole Arabic Quran you will never find that the prayer are 5.
Anyway, aks your questions again one by one.
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
from someone who defends homosexuality ( dalia in other posts) why would her opinion matter ? knowing that she refuses what the religion says about homosexuals and further more completely denies it and her reason was " she has homos friends" so Do you believe some one who defend homosexuality? Noting that she is using the opinions of Emams( here in this thread) who she attacks in their fatwa against homosexuality( in the Homosexuality thread).
also the fatwa about female circumcisons she brought doesnt prohibit the sunnah circumcions for females. but prohibits the other illegal types of females circumcisons.
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
a double standard, isnt it??
Posted by Charm el Feikh? (Member # 10243) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: from someone who defends homosexuality why would her opinion matter ?
Do you believe some one who defend homosexuality?
the word pejorative springs to mind for the first time since 1994.
Posted by Sneezer (Member # 6244) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: from someone who defends homosexuality ( dalia in other posts) why would her opinion matter
I don't expect you to agree with Dalia, but this argument -- that since someone believes one thing, then *everything* she posts must be wrong -- is entirely illogical.
Posted by Tibe (Member # 10253) on :
Posted by imagine (Member # 11591) on :
just following u now tibe ilmao... in a silly mood today :-p
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: actually there is no verse in Quran saying that The prayers are 5. This is an translation of an explanation of Quran thorugh Sunnah.
If you search the whole Arabic Quran you will never find that the prayer are 5.
Anyway, aks your questions again one by one.
so you are saying these verses are NOT a translation of Quran?
Im sorry I cant take you serious anymore
Posted by newcomer (Member # 1056) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: actually there is no verse in Quran saying that The prayers are 5. This is an translation of an explanation of Quran thorugh Sunnah.
If you search the whole Arabic Quran you will never find that the prayer are 5.
Anyway, aks your questions again one by one.
so you are saying these verses are NOT a translation of Quran?
Im sorry I cant take you serious anymore
Assalamu alaykum Ayisha!
What you wrote in the last page was actually not a translation of the Qur'an. It was an interpretation of the verses with additional notes added to give explanations of the meanings that have been gathered from the Prophet's Sunnah. See if you can find someone to give you an exact translation of the Arabic and you will find in this case that islamsweden is correct.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by newcomer:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: actually there is no verse in Quran saying that The prayers are 5. This is an translation of an explanation of Quran thorugh Sunnah.
If you search the whole Arabic Quran you will never find that the prayer are 5.
Anyway, aks your questions again one by one.
so you are saying these verses are NOT a translation of Quran?
Im sorry I cant take you serious anymore
Assalamu alaykum Ayisha!
What you wrote in the last page was actually not a translation of the Qur'an. It was an interpretation of the verses with additional notes added to give explanations of the meanings that have been gathered from the Prophet's Sunnah. See if you can find someone to give you an exact translation of the Arabic and you will find in this case that islamsweden is correct.
salam alaikum newcomer.the last post i made on the last page was the same verses from Quran that i had posted before. It is Yousef Ali interpretation of the Quran, the notes in bold where MINE showing islamsweden which prayer is referred to, other than my notes in bold it was directly from Yousef Ali interpretation.
Posted by newcomer (Member # 1056) on :
I had realised that Ayisha, but if you actually look around at other translations/interpretations of the Qur'an you will see that there are other possible interpretations of those verses which could indicate that there may just be 3 prayers during the day. In fact some people who only refer to the Qur'an for the prayer times and ignore the Prophet's Sunnah do just pray 3 times a day. The Qur'an never specifies that there are five daily prayers nor the manner in which they are to be performed in detail. So for the explanation of how and when to pray we need to refer to the Sunnah, in accordance with Allah's commands to obey what the Prophet teaches (59:7, 4:58-59).
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
LOL ... what happened to this thread? How come prayers and homosexuality into this? Looks like islamsweden has been trying hard to distract from the fact that he has run out of arguments.
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org:
Anyway, again I asked u, Sarah, Dalia everyone, do you really and honestly understand the all types of females circumscion???? ...
please please please please please please please please please please please please please, When you are talking about Female circumcion, just Identify the type...
... So it's a must to understand the diffrence among Clitoridotomy" ,"Clitoridectomy" and "Infibulation"
by the way, I think people are misunderstanding me altogether..
I mean "Clitoridotomy" and not "Clitoridectomy" and of course not "Infibulation"
I find it very strange that you spent two pages of this thread trying to "educate" us about the different methods of cutting and "medical indications" - and then you post a fatwa that calls for clitoridectomy - precisely the thing you've been claiming you're so opposed to!
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org:
Circumcision of the female consists of the removal of a part of the clitoris, which is situated above the opening of the urethra. The Sunnah is not to remove all of it, but only a part. (al-Mawsu‘ah al-Fiqhiyyah 19/28).
In this matter, it is wise to follow the interests of the female: if the clitoris is large, then part of it should be removed
This is from a link you posted earlier on: Clitoridectomy means the partial or total removal of the external part of the clitoris.
There is no mentioning either of this being a procedure required in rare cases and for particular medical conditions; this sheikh is saying that part of a normal, healthy organ in a healthy woman / girl should be cut off.
I don't know what you've been trying to "prove" with this bizarre fatwa, but all you've done is demonstrating that you obviously don't understand most of the stuff you're reading.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org:
the fatwa about female circumcisons she brought doesnt prohibit the sunnah circumcions for females. but prohibits the other illegal types of females circumcisons.
" ... The Prophetic Tradition is free of what is called the circumcision of the Sunnah for females. Further, the Prophet's Sirah (i.e., Biography), which records everything about the Prophet (PBUH) in detail, has no mention that he (PBUH) practiced circumcision on his daughters, wives, or any female member of his household.
... There is not even one legal religious evidence in the main sources of Shari`ah to prove the legality of female circumcision. That is to say, female circumcision is not an obligatory act, an act of the Sunnah, or even an honorable act as clarified beforehand.
As far as Sunnah is concerned, there are some Prophetic Hadiths that may indicate the legality of practicing female circumcision despite the fact that none of these Hadiths have an authentic chain of transmitters so that it is not possible to deduce a legal ruling from them on such a very serious human matter.
Thus, it is unacceptable, according to scholars, to use Hadiths of an unauthentic chain of transmitters as an argument for some matter as only Hadiths of authentic chain of transmitters can be applied as an argument. ...
"The Hadith of female circumcision has been reported through so many ways all of which are weak, blemished and defective, and thus it is unacceptable to prove a legal ruling through such ways." (6) To conclude, the Hadith in question does not benefit and no argument can be derived from it. ...
In conclusion, it becomes clear that there is no sahih Sunnah (authentic sunnah) to prove the legality of female circumcision as all hadiths cited in such a matter are da'if (weak) and no legal ruling can be deduced from them. Such a practice (female circumcision) is nothing but a habit which Islam has left for time and medical progress to invalidate. ...
Because female circumcision is an act of hurting a female by cutting parts from her body, it is not reasonable to say that such an act is among the permissible matters, for it is, on the contrary, legally prohibited according to religious rule that states "the original ruling pertaining to the harm caused against bodies, properties, and reputations, is prohibition not permissibility". ..."
"The Maliki school holds that female circumcession is Sunnah, while Hanafi school as well as a reported view from the Hanbli school maintain that it is not sunnah; rather it is merely a makrumah (customarily recommended act, but no provisions in the Qur’an or Sunnah obligate nor recommend it). "
"In my point of view, female circumcision is permissible, but it is an established rule that permissible matters may be banned if they happen to involve harm, due to the juristic rule that there should be no harm, nor reciprocating harm. Permissible matters may also remain in practice and be improved, as implied in the above hadith regarding the way of female circumcision. "
Our imams allah blessings on them didnt leave us alone and if they didnt cover anything then it was meant to be , that we have to think about it and decide for ourselves , but the issue of FC was mentiones by malik , hanbal and shafii and hanbal. and we dont need non-muslims to tell us what to do. they can keep whatever they believe in for themselves ( today or maybe change it tomorrow) but what we have from allah is the truth that will remain where and when no one else exists in this life.
muslims should not be ashmed to learn , and when you asked your first question , you werent asking for a fatwa but rather about an opinion and when you found a controversy ; you read in more depth then found what the 4 scholars said about the matter. which is the muslim way/path..to know and learn but when it comes to DO it must have a solid ground and a sound reason to follow. not like non-muslims , if they want something then do it..regret later or deny it its up to them like if there were no Allah...but thats normal , they dont believe in Allah anyway so how come they would believe in us Muslims
Posted by Tibe (Member # 10253) on :
It has to do with some arab men and religious leaders sexual insecurity - and nothing to do with religion or healthissues!
Women has the right to enjoy sex asmuch as men. That gives the most happy relationsship between a man and a woman. When a man is really able to please his woman - then his a real man. Thats what these ignorant fools are afraid they cant, so their wifes may seek sexual pleasure elsewhere.
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
hey Tibe , how are you?
this wont prevent enjoying Sex if it's carried out according to the correct islamic rules. this will increase the sex enjoyment for women
you can find this in lots of web sites Posted by Tibe (Member # 10253) on :
Thanks fine (also because my clit is intact...
No but it sure cant give any good long lifegiving orgasm's....................
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sneezer:
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org:
then if God wants us to use our brain in religion, why did he send us the sacred books and prophets??
You don't mean this, do you?
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Sneezer:
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org:
then if God wants us to use our brain in religion, why did he send us the sacred books and prophets??
You don't mean this, do you?
????
your point in brief?
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: from someone who defends homosexuality ( dalia in other posts) why would her opinion matter ? knowing that she refuses what the religion says about homosexuals and further more completely denies it and her reason was " she has homos friends" so Do you believe some one who defend homosexuality? Noting that she is using the opinions of Emams( here in this thread) who she attacks in their fatwa against homosexuality( in the Homosexuality thread).
also the fatwa about female circumcisons she brought doesnt prohibit the sunnah circumcions for females. but prohibits the other illegal types of females circumcisons.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: the issue of FC was mentiones by malik , hanbal and shafii and hanbal. and we dont need non-muslims to tell us what to do.
"... if we wish to find out the ruling of Islamic law on the question of female circumcision, we should seek it in the Quran, then in the sunna, then in the consensus of scholars, and finally by analogy. We may find help in the interpretations of scholars, reassuring us that we have understood the text correctly, and confirming our conclusion. However, in the light of the knowledge now available to us and the progress made in medical science in particular, we may find nothing of benefit in those interpretations. When this is the case, we disregard them and pay no attention to what is set down in the books of scholars.
The Quran makes no mention, whether explicit or implicit, of female circumcision. There is no consensus on the ruling of Islamic law in regard to it, and no analogy that is relevant and admissible.
As for the sunna, it is the source to which the presumed legitimacy of female circumcision is ascribed, and this is because of certain quotations attributed to the Prophet, Peace Be Upon Him in some anthologies of hadith. In fact, there is no authentic evidence in the cited statements which allows for sanctioning this act, which has such serious matter, with its serious implications for human life as a whole. ...
... it is clear that in true sunna there is no evidence that female circumcision is endorsed, that all the hadith on female circumcision used as evidence are poor in authenticity and cannot serve as the basis for a religious ruling, and that the practice is nothing other than a custom which Islam left for time and for progress in medicine to refine or abolish....
... it is clear that in Islamic ruling, clitoridotomy is neither an obligation nor a sunna, with no evidence supporting either. Nor is it a sign of respect because all the hadith endorsing it are poor in authenticity. It is rather a custom, and as such it is not common in all Islamic countries; it is restricted to some. Besides, it is a custom that causes an absolute injury, the infliction of which on any person cannot be accepted without legitimate justification. It is an injury which, particularly in its psychological aspect, cannot be compensated for. If its practice and the injustice it involves, as it is practised in all its forms that are common in our country, causes a woman to lose her ability to enjoy sexual satisfaction, scholars rule that retribution or blood money is due.
...
We should remind those who advocate female circumcision, believing it to be a religious practice, that the thing we are discussing is not a theoretical concept which can serve as a suitable subject of controversy. It is rather a custom which is very common.
Published Egyptian statistics reveal that 95% of all Egyptian females are subjected to circumcision (Facts about female circumcision, The Egyptian Society for Protection against Practices Harmful to Women and Children, 1993, p.11). The practice takes one of three forms, none of which conforms to the procedure advocated by those who sanction female circumcision. All three forms deviate from that procedure.
...
Physicians and nonphysicians equally shoulder the criminal and civil responsibility for this atrocity. The female genitals in their normal form and as created by God are not a disease, nor a cause of disease. Nor do they cause any sort of pain which requires surgical intervention. Thus any surgical tampering with this delicate, natural system, in any of the forms of female circumcision, is not regarded by the law as falling under any of the valid reasons for surgery, which are medical treatment, detection of a disease, relief from a current pain, or prevention of an expected one. Therefore, the surgical procedure in question is not allowed and calls for punishment. ... "
excellent post Dalia, as ever Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
quote: , that all the hadith on female circumcision used as evidence are poor in authenticity and cannot serve as the basis for a religious ruling
1-some scholars who are in deep knowledge of Hadith science prove the authenticity of those hadith
2-let's assume that the hadith is weak, When Science proves the benefits of the operations upon some famales, then is it prohibited to carry out it in Islam?? So, In this situation, we have to apply science because science proves the authenticity of The hadith.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org:
quote: , that all the hadith on female circumcision used as evidence are poor in authenticity and cannot serve as the basis for a religious ruling
1-some scholars who are in deep knowledge of Hadith science prove the authenticity of those hadith
2-let's assume that the hadith is weak, When Science proves the benefits of the operations upon some famales, then is it prohibited to carry out it in Islam?? So, In this situation, we have to apply science because science proves the authenticity of The hadith.
i dont understand, is there something wrong in your understanding of the written word or did you not READ the entire article or are you deliberately twisting what you read to help your argument?
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
Circumcision of Girls The view that we arrived at when discussing the ruling of circumcision was indeed particular to males.
Perhaps the closest of the sayings to the truth is that circumcision is prescribed for women and allowed for them and is not an obligation, and that is due to the following:
1) The saying of the Prophet (SAW):
"When two circumcised parts unite then bathing becomes obligatory." (Sahih, Reported by Ahmad and Al-Baihaqee)
2) The saying of the Messenger (SAW) in the Hadith of Umm ‘Atiyyah to a female circumcision:
"When you circumcise then do not cut severely, since that is better for her and more pleasing to the husband." (Reported by Abu Dawud and Al-Baihaqee and declared Hasan by Shaikh Al-Albani)
3) And to those who declare it to be obligatory upon the women, then it is said: Rather the other refers to the men and it is not correct to transfer the ruling to the women, since they differ from men in their nature and constitution and there is no proof for its obligation upon them except for an analogy - and that cannot be applied here as we have mentioned.
4) As for the Hadith of Umm ‘Atiyyah then it shows no more than an allowance as has preceded, not an obligation.
The harm that is attributed to this operation cannot be ascribed to circumcision itself, rather to two matters:
1) Cutting too severely - as occurs in some Islamic lands - such that the clitoris or its hood is totally removed, indeed sometimes even the outer lips (labia) are removed and the vaginal orifice closed. It is essential to point out here that this is not the prescribed Shariah method by the Messenger (SAW) who warned against its saying: "When you circumcise then do not do so severely…"
2) Or the harm is also due to this operation being carried out by those who do not specialize in this field, or by the use of unsterilized instruments which causes infection or harmful illnesses.
So when we consider this harm, we find that it is not caused by circumcision itself, but rather by contradicting the text forbidding cutting severely, or by using unhygienic instruments, and this cannot be used to prevent the operation itself - if properly performed - since it male circumcision were to be performed by cutting to excess or with unhygienic instruments - then that would also be detested and rejected. So would this be a reason to prevent male circumcision? So the same goes with regard to females.
So from what has preceded it becomes clear that female circumcision - if done correctly - such that the cutting is limited, and done with proper instruments - is something prescribed and produces health and psychological benefits - and is far removed from harmful effects of danger.
Benefits of Female Circumcision A number of doctors have affirmed that female circumcision produces a number of benefits. Female circumcision shares some of the benefits of male circumcision, and has extra benefits particular to it - some of them being mentioned by our Prophet Muhammad (SAW) who said that it is:
"Better for the woman and more pleasing for the husband" and that it is "Better of the face and more pleasing to the husband." (Reported by Al-Baihaqee)
And as is known these benefits so not reach the level of importance of the benefits of male circumcision. However, they are benefits and productive of good effects.
Here are some of the benefits which have been discovered:
1) A reduction of infections resulting from microbes gathering under the hood of the clitoris.
2) Attacks of herpes and genital ulcers are less severe and less harmful with men and women who have been circumcised.
3) A further benefit that is apparent for women and more so for their husbands, is that women of hot climates often have a large clitoris which arouses their desires when it rubs against the adjacent clothing. It may even
3) A further benefit that is apparent for women and more so for their husbands, is that women of hot climates often have a large clitoris which arouses their desires when it rubs against the adjacent clothing. It may even grow to such a size that sexual intercourse is not possible. Therefore, circumcision reduces her desires and their effects in the first case, and makes intercourse possible in the second case.
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: women of hot climates often have a large clitoris which arouses their desires when it rubs against the adjacent clothing.
Those "arguments" are getting more ridiculous with every post.
Men of all climates usually have a penis that, whatever its size, rubs against the adjacent clothing.
I don't think anyone with all his senses intact would suggest cutting off the penis in order to prevent this ...
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: women of hot climates often have a large clitoris which arouses their desires when it rubs against the adjacent clothing.
Those "arguments" are getting more ridiculous with every post.
Men of all climates usually have a penis that, whatever its size, rubs against the adjacent clothing.
I don't think anyone with all his senses intact would suggest cutting off the penis in order to prevent this ...
i think you dont know lots about women's and men's genitalia! you cant post this post except if you are kidding or lacking information.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: i think you dont know lots about women's and men's genitalia!
No, but I'm sure you do. After all, you have proven your deep expertise by educating us so eloquently on the subject.
I do wonder where you're getting all those strange ideas from though ... do you happen to watch a lot of porn??? Women getting excited by their clothing - sure, lol! I guess we must also be prohibited from riding a bike or a motorcycle or sitting on a horse then ... according to your theory that should have us raging with hornyness.
Posted by Sub-zero (Member # 9691) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: 3) A further benefit that is apparent for women and more so for their husbands, is that women of hot climates often have a large clitoris which arouses their desires when it rubs against the adjacent clothing.
What a load of crap, this is one of the most ridiculous arguments I ever heard. What is bothering you so much with Clits and Labia and turning your nights into nightmares? It is God's creation, stop medelling with it to please a sick ego.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: women of hot climates often have a large clitoris which arouses their desires when it rubs against the adjacent clothing.
i think you dont know lots about women's and men's genitalia! you cant post this post except if you are kidding or lacking information. right back at ya Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
Women with larger hoods can often masturbate by working the hood to and fro over the head of their clitoris. Women with more compact structures tend to rub the clitoris and hood together as one item. Sometimes the glans clitoris is too sensitive to be rubbed with the hood fully pulled back.
dont you believe wikipedia?
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: women of hot climates often have a large clitoris which arouses their desires when it rubs against the adjacent clothing.
i think you dont know lots about women's and men's genitalia! you cant post this post except if you are kidding or lacking information. right back at ya
I'm so amazed how people dont know these facts or you are ignoring these facts......
I will bring you facts you are ignoring from wikipedia
Posted by Tibe (Member # 10253) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Women with larger hoods can often masturbate by working the hood to and fro over the head of their clitoris. Women with more compact structures tend to rub the clitoris and hood together as one item. Sometimes the glans clitoris is too sensitive to be rubbed with the hood fully pulled back.
So that make us uncontrolling sexfreaks and gives the men and religious leaders the right to remove our clit....... Please come on man. How many horny women through themselfes at your dick every day??????
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tibe:
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Women with larger hoods can often masturbate by working the hood to and fro over the head of their clitoris. Women with more compact structures tend to rub the clitoris and hood together as one item. Sometimes the glans clitoris is too sensitive to be rubbed with the hood fully pulled back.
So that make us uncontrolling sexfreaks and gives the men and religious leaders the right to remove our clit.......
who is Us?? I'm talking about some women who have large abnormal clit . It doesnt concern lots of women here whose clits are normal.
Posted by Tibe (Member # 10253) on :
So do you want them to obey a kind of religious law and force them to have their clit measured in point of posible reduction to prevent them from becoming sexual horny monsters that will destroy the islamic morals???????
Posted by Tibe (Member # 10253) on :
New word in islamic countries perhaps - "clitpolice" Im glad to be an atheist foreigner........
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tibe: New word in islamic countries perhaps - "clitpolice" Im glad to be an atheist foreigner........
cant do that Tibe as its NOT Islamic, which Islamsweden started out trying to prove it WAS but has now posted enough to prove its NOT
anyway, i dont get aroused when I walk around so i want a refund as i was obviously ripped off and given a defective one Posted by star trek (Member # 11683) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Women with larger hoods can often masturbate by working the hood to and fro over the head of their clitoris. Women with more compact structures tend to rub the clitoris and hood together as one item. Sometimes the glans clitoris is too sensitive to be rubbed with the hood fully pulled back.
Don't Rely on the Wikipedia. This interesting piece from American Chronicle criticizes the huge flaws in the Wikipedia model: One in which articles about people and subjects are written collaboratively by volunteers that can be changed by anyone with Internet access.
Before taking the information you look up on Wikipedia for the straight scoop, consider some of these problems:
- Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia, but a collection of eclectic information generated regularly by a community of users. - Often, experts are scorned and abused on Wikipedia listings, because everyone is treated equally when it comes to editing and contributing. - The Wikipedia model is an opaque one because contributors and editors remain anonymous and, as such, pages (including ones dealing with history) are often edited, rewritten and erased. http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=11109 Posted by star trek (Member # 11683) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tibe: New word in islamic countries perhaps - "clitpolice" Im glad to be an atheist foreigner........
In Indonesia, 90% of Islamic mothers surveyed support the practice of female circumcision—and hospitals are now offering a two-for-one deal: Genital Mutilation Half Price Sale
"Most of those who were circumcised were babies, but older people come, too. "Sometimes there are also women of 20 or 30. Even grandmothers aged 50 or 60 years old come." Those who had the procedure described it as "like an ant bite".
"Masitoh Chusnan, from the women's wing of Muhammadiyah, one of Indonesia's two biggest Muslim organisations, says the circumcision of girls is regarded in Islam as an honourable practice. "The Hadith did not say it's obligatory, but it is recommended to have it done," she says. "There is the Prophet's words saying girls must be circumcised but you should not cut too much."
the USAid-funded study by the Population Council surveyed 1694 households in eight regions and found all the boys and 97.5 per cent of girls had been circumcised.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tibe: So do you want them to obey a kind of religious law and force them to have their clit measured in point of posible reduction
Yeah, I've been wondering about this ever since this argument was first brought up, but never got an explanation. Who decides what is "large", and when is "large" = "abnormal"? And why in the world should a healthy organ be mutilated just because of its size? And what about "abnormally large" penises - following this weird logic they should also be surgically reduced!
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org:
A number of doctors have affirmed that female circumcision produces a number of benefits.
NEW STUDY SHOWS FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION EXPOSES WOMEN AND BABIES TO SIGNIFICANT RISK AT CHILDBIRTH
2 JUNE 2006 | GENEVA -- A new study published by the World Health Organization (WHO) has shown that women who have had Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) are significantly more likely to experience difficulties during childbirth and that their babies are more likely to die as a result of the practice.
Serious complications during childbirth include the need to have a caesarean section, dangerously heavy bleeding after the birth of the baby and prolonged hospitalization following the birth. The study showed that the degree of complications increased according to the extent and severity of the FGM.
In the case of caesarean section, women who have been subjected to the most serious form of FGM ("FGM III") will have on average 30 per cent more caesarean sections compared with those who have not had any FGM. Similarly there is a 70 per cent increase in numbers of women who suffer from postpartum haemorrhage in those with FGM III compared to those women without FGM.*
"As a result of this study we have, for the first time, evidence that deliveries among women who have been subject to FGM are significantly more likely to be complicated and dangerous," said Joy Phumaphi, Assistant Director-General, Family and Community Health, WHO. " FGM is a practice steeped in culture and tradition but it should not be allowed to carry on. We must support communities in their efforts to abandon the practice and to improve care for those who have undergone FGM.
We must also steadfastly resist the medicalization of FGM. WHO is totally opposed to FGM being carried out by medical personnel."
The study also found that FGM put the women's babies in substantial danger during childbirth. Researchers found there was an increased need to resuscitate babies whose mother had had FGM (66% higher in women with FGM III). The death rate among babies during and immediately after birth is also much higher for those born to mothers with FGM: 15% higher in those with FGM I, 32% higher in those with FGM II, and 55% higher in those with FGM III. It is estimated that in the African context an additional 10 to 20 babies die per 1000 deliveries as a result of the practice.
"This research was carried out in hospitals where the obstetric staff are used to dealing with women who have undergone FGM. The consequences for the countless women and babies who deliver at home without the help of experienced staff are likely to be even worse," added WHO's Dr Paul Van Look, Director of the Special Programme for Human Reproduction Research (HRP) which organized the study.
The study involved 28,393 women at 28 obstetric centres in six countries, where FGM is common - Burkina Faso, Ghana, Kenya, Nigeria, Senegal and Sudan. The centres varied from relatively isolated rural hospitals to teaching hospitals in capital cities. They were chosen to provide appropriate diversity of types of FGM.
"These findings are of great importance for countries," said Professor Saad M El Fadil, the study Principal Investigator in Sudan. "This high-quality research was carried out in numerous hospitals in African countries where FGM is common and for the first time gives clear evidence of its harmful effects for women and babies."
FGM is a common practice in a number of countries, predominantly in Africa. It involves partial or total removal of the external female genitalia or other deliberate injury to the female genital organs whether for cultural or non- therapeutic reasons. Over 100 million women and girls are estimated to have had FGM worldwide.
Although practices vary from country to country, FGM is generally performed on girls under 10 years of age and leads to varying amounts of scar formation. It is not entirely clear why FGM leads to increased complications during childbirth, but one possible explanation is that this scar tissue is relatively inelastic and can lead to obstruction and tearing of the tissues around the vagina during childbirth. Obstruction can lead to prolonged labour, which increases the risk of caesarean section, heavy bleeding, distress in the infant and stillbirth. Women with FGM are also more likely to undergo episiotomy (surgical cut during delivery to prevent vaginal tears).
According to Associate Professor Emily Banks of the Australian National University, "This study shows that where around 5.0% of babies born to women without FGM were stillborn or died shortly after delivery, this figure increased to 6.4% in babies born to women with FGM. In many parts of Africa death rates are even higher and the impact of FGM is likely to be even greater." The authors of the study say that this new evidence is of crucial importance to communities where FGM is practiced, both for the women who have had FGM and to protect future generations of women and girls from FGM. FGM remains a pressing human rights issue and reliable evidence regarding its harmful effects, both for mothers and their babies, should contribute to the abandonment of the practice. WHO is committed to work with international partners and countries to eliminate FGM. It is in direct violation of young girls’ rights, has both short-term and long-term adverse health consequences, and is an unnecessary procedure.
*Note: Female genital mutilation (FGM), often referred to as 'female circumcision', covers all procedures involving partial or total removal of the external female genitalia or other injury to the female genital organs whether for cultural, religious or other non-therapeutic reasons. There are different types of female genital mutilation known to be practised today. They include:
Type I (FGM 1) - excision of the prepuce, with or without excision of part or all of the clitoris;
Type II (FGM II) - excision of the clitoris with partial or total excision of the labia minora;
Type III (FGM III) - excision of part or all of the external genitalia and stitching/narrowing of the vaginal opening (infibulation)
The harm that is attributed to this operation cannot be ascribed to circumcision itself, rather to two matters:
1) Cutting too severely - as occurs in some Islamic lands - such that the clitoris or its hood is totally removed, indeed sometimes even the outer lips (labia) are removed and the vaginal orifice closed. It is essential to point out here that this is not the prescribed Shariah method by the Messenger (SAW) who warned against its saying: "When you circumcise then do not do so severely…"
2) Or the harm is also due to this operation being carried out by those who do not specialize in this field, or by the use of unsterilized instruments which causes infection or harmful illnesses.
So when we consider this harm, we find that it is not caused by circumcision itself, but rather by contradicting the text forbidding cutting severely, or by using unhygienic instruments, and this cannot be used to prevent the operation itself - if properly performed - since it male circumcision were to be performed by cutting to excess or with unhygienic instruments - then that would also be detested and rejected. So would this be a reason to prevent male circumcision? So the same goes with regard to females.
So from what has preceded it becomes clear that female circumcision - if done correctly - such that the cutting is limited, and done with proper instruments - is something prescribed and produces health and psychological benefits - and is far removed from harmful effects of danger.
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: 2) Or the harm is also due to this operation being carried out by those who do not specialize in this field, or by the use of unsterilized instruments which causes infection or harmful illnesses.
The danger of medicalization
Some countries have sought to encourage performance of less severe forms of FGM by qualified medical professionals. Sudan, Djibouti and Egypt have all tried this strategy, rather than imposing a complete ban. Experience has shown, however, that such policies are unsuccessful, and only serve to legitimize and perpetuate genital mutilation. In some cases older female relatives have merely performed another, more severe operation if they feel the procedure has not been carried out adequately.
The involvement of medical professionals in FGM undermines the message that FGM denies women and girls their right to the highest attainable standard of health. Most activists are strongly opposed to medical involvement in FGM and argue that official policy should always be complete eradication. The World Health Organization (WHO) takes a very strong stand against the medicalization of FGM in any form.
Aha! I get it. After analysis of the last post, I get that In the 1st time they didnt ban it because they knew the benefits of it and they made it through the Qualified medical team....
The second time, they banned it because of people illiteracy and ignorance not because it's of no use...
Your last post is very informative for me
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
Neither the excerpt I posted nor the complete text in the link suggests anything that comes close to your conclusion.
I think you have a serious problem with the English language. That would also explain why you often post links to texts that contradict your arguments instead of confirming them.
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
can u explain what's beyond this paragraph you had posted?
quote: originally posted by Dalia that such policies are unsuccessful, and only serve to legitimize and perpetuate genital mutilation. In some cases older female relatives have merely performed another, more severe operation if they feel the procedure has not been carried out adequately.
what did they mean by "policies"?? who carried out this proceduere mentioned in this phrase "the procedure has not been carried out adequately."?? Why??
Posted by Sub-zero (Member # 9691) on :
Honestly, I don't get it. I mean if one of the arguments displayed here that promotes cutting the clitoris because it causes friction with garnments in "hot" countries, does that mean that friction is not caused by garnments in cold countries?
Logic says, for the sake of conversation, that if any woman has a large clitoris that gets in the way of anything, should be treated individually as a medical case that requires surgery, and looked upon as any other case as such, like removing her apendix or something.
The problem with us, Arabs, that we always read things and deal with them with religious eyes only. We have an incrediable amount of heritage mixed up with traditions, sayings, experiences mingled up with religion beliefs that became a very thick unshakable paste surrounding our senses. We locked ourselves in the past and constantly refusing to accept anything else beside our infamous handed down catalouge. If we want a place in this world, this, for starters, has to change.
Why is it any man's problem what a woman has in her own body? What bothers men so much that a woman, who happens to be a creature with feelings and emotions just like the man, can enjoy sex more or less like the man? Why deny her the right? If religious people boast that Islam is the religion of "Fitra", why is it selective? Why is that considered a taboo? Is it selfishness, control, chauvaunism?
Posted by Automatisch für die Leute (Member # 7291) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: can u explain what's beyond this paragraph you had posted?
quote: originally posted by Dalia that such policies are unsuccessful, and only serve to legitimize and perpetuate genital mutilation. In some cases older female relatives have merely performed another, more severe operation if they feel the procedure has not been carried out adequately.
what did they mean by "policies"?? who carried out this proceduere mentioned in this phrase "the procedure has not been carried out adequately."?? Why??
I can explain using an analogy:
Some governments allow the use of torture on suspects in order to extract information/confessions on the condition that the torture is "humane". So after detaining a suspect one police officer tortures him by cutting off his ear and gets no results but he stops because he believed any more would be inhumane. Another police officer walks in and thinks hell, I can cut off his penis to extract information and still be within the bounds of "humane torture".
What amnesty is saying is that there is NO such thing as humane torture and that all forms of torture should be BANNED. They also claim that by encouraging any form of torture those governments in fact facilitated the worst forms of torture because no two people will view "humane" in the same way.
The same applies to FGM (Female Genital Mutilation). So let's say your five years old sister gets Mutilated by a "qualified medical professional" and goes home to your mother who looks at her and thinks "Those doctors didn't have a clue what they were doing, that clitoris is still too large and the labia was not cut at all....idiots!". So she gets out the knife and performs even more Mutilation on your sister.
In that case the blame not only lies with your mother but with the government and those "qualified medical professionals" for allowing any form of Mutilation at all.
Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
If the medical professionals see that it's needless, they wont carry it out from the begining. How can a physican harm human?? It's logical that the physicans knew what they are doing. When I ast my friends who are professionals they said that There's a need to make this sunna circum. for some women especially in hot countries. and now, Dalia's post confirms it to me.
Posted by Tibe (Member # 10253) on :
Islamsweden.org please tell me who has to be the judge on which clit is so big it needs to be cut?????????? And do the women have anything to say or should it be done by force or at birth- you cant imposible judge a baby's clit on how big or small it will be later on.... Posted by islamsweden.org (Member # 10368) on :
by force!!!!!!!!!! who told you that?
It cant be carried out on females below the age of 15 I think
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
it IS carried out on girls younger than that!
Dalias post confirmed nothing you have said, again you are not understanding any of it.
I feel sorry for your female children, i feel sorry for you. You are blinded by customs and cultures to what is right, humane and in the whole order of Islam. You have posted many times thats its NOT sunna in all your copy-paste articles but you STILL are here calling it sunna circumsicion!
You are going round in circles.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tibe:
So do you want them to obey a kind of religious law and force them to have their clit measured in point of posible reduction
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
Who decides what is "large", and when is "large" = "abnormal"? And why in the world should a healthy organ be mutilated just because of its size? And what about "abnormally large" penises - following this weird logic they should also be surgically reduced!
quote:Originally posted by Tibe:
Islamsweden.org please tell me who has to be the judge on which clit is so big it needs to be cut?????????? And do the women have anything to say or should it be done by force or at birth
Why don't you answer these questions, islamsweden?
I noticed you turned around and changed your argument / opinion completely. For two pages of this thread you kept telling us "clitoridectomy is bad, but clitoridotomy is sunna", now it's "clitoridectomy is good for women in hot climates and women with larger sexual organs". Since you keep focussing on this point now, you surely must have thought about those questions and should have a theory. Please explain.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org:
by force!!!!!!!!!! who told you that?
It cant be carried out on females below the age of 15 I think
Errr ... the link you posted said that the text is taken from Manners of Welcoming the New Born Child in Islaam.
You can't seriously believe that the millions of girls and women who suffer from this procedure every year have undergone it voluntarily?!?
"FGM/C is mainly performed on children and adolescents between four and 14 years of age. In some countries, however, up to half of FGM/C is performed on infants under one year old, including 44 per cent in Eritrea and 29 per cent in Mali."
Cruel and totally unnescesary. There is no medical logic in this. Its prohibited by law in Denmark. The muslim immigrants who do this will be prosecuted and in the end sometimes throughn out of the country (if they are not native -whom would never do that).
Men have a larger sex drive than women, - so why dont we just remove their sensitive dickheads and let doctors/scientists make women pregnant. Then we dont have to go through all the immoral joys of sex......
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Aha! I get it. After analysis of the last post, I get that In the 1st time they didnt ban it because they knew the benefits of it and they made it through the Qualified medical team....
It has nothing to do with "knowing the benefits". If you check out the source of my text, you will see that Amnesty International has been fighting FGM for a long time, and nowhere do they mention any "benefits" of the procedure - quite the opposite, they keep pointing out the dangers and how it violates human rights!
Regarding "medicalization" - the strategy to have the procedure carried out by medical professionals instead of midwives or barbers has a very simple reason; it's an attempt to at least limit the number of cases with very serious consequences, pain and death that occur if it's done the traditional way and without any medical equipment:
"Sometimes a trained midwife will be available to give a local anesthetic. In some cultures, girls will sit beforehand in cold water to numb the area and reduce the likelihood of bleeding. More commonly, however, no steps are taken to reduce the pain. The girl is immobilized, held, usually by older women, with her legs open. Mutilation may be carried out using broken glass, a tin lid, scissors, a razor blade, or some other cutting instrument. When infibulation takes place, thorns or stitches may be used to hold the two sides of the labia majora together, and the legs may be bound together for up to forty days. Antiseptic powder may be applied, or more usually, pastes-containing herbs, milk, eggs, ashes, or dung-which are believed to facilitate healing. " (Amnesty, 1998)
In countries where FGM has been practised for a long time and is deeply rooted in the culture it cannot be eradicated by simply passing a law that forbids it. People need to be educated and their attitude changed, and that's a long and slow process. But in the meantime girls and women are suffering and dying because of those disgusting procedures. Medicalization has been an attempt to minimize the effects of those and limit the damage done to girls and women.
The reasons why the WHO and others oppose this medicalization is that it gives out the wrong message - that FGM is ok if carried out under medical supervision. But the WHO is strongly opposed to any form of FGM, no matter how it's carried out and by whom, and that's why they are opposed to the so-called medicalization.
Hope that clarifies it. The analogy posted by Automatisch also explains it quite well.
Posted by sultan.org (Member # 10368) on :
For Sure the gynecologist knows better and if he didnt knew the situation well, He wouldnt carry out the 1st operation which you mentioned in your post. The Gynecologis will determine the proper size and the benefits of this operation
quote: originally posted by Dalia In some cases older female relatives have merely performed another, more severe operation if they feel the procedure has not been carried out adequately.
If the doctor saw it's useless, he wouldnt carry it out from the beginning.
Posted by Tibe (Member # 10253) on :
So you want all women to be forced to have this operation done if a gynecologis says its to big?????
Posted by sultan.org (Member # 10368) on :
So again my point in order not to deviate from the point.
The harm that is attributed to this operation cannot be ascribed to circumcision( in Sunna) itself, rather to two matters:
1) Cutting too severely - as occurs in some Islamic lands - such that the clitoris or its hood is totally removed, indeed sometimes even the outer lips (labia) are removed and the vaginal orifice closed. It is essential to point out here that this is not the prescribed Shariah method by the Messenger (SAW) who warned against its saying: "When you circumcise then do not do so severely…"
2) Or the harm is also due to this operation being carried out by those who do not specialize in this field, or by the use of unsterilized instruments which causes infection or harmful illnesses.
So when we consider this harm, we find that it is not caused by circumcision itself, but rather by contradicting the text forbidding cutting severely, or by using unhygienic instruments, and this cannot be used to prevent the operation itself - if properly performed - since it male circumcision were to be performed by cutting to excess or with unhygienic instruments - then that would also be detested and rejected. So would this be a reason to prevent male circumcision? So the same goes with regard to females.
So from what has preceded it becomes clear that female circumcision - if done correctly - such that the cutting is limited, and done with proper instruments - is something prescribed and produces health and psychological benefits - and is far removed from harmful effects of danger
If you focus in ur posts , you will find out that u are talking about the harms that are due to illitaracy of people.
"Clitoridotomy" (which is also called "hoodectomy" as a slang term) involves the removal or splitting of the clitoral hood. The United Nations Population Fund states that this is comparable to male circumcision.[1] In the United States and other Western countries, clitoridotomy is usually performed on adult women rather than on children. It is also known as Sunna circumcision (named after the Arabic word for anything approved by Islamic law and centred in Islamic tradition). However some Muslim clergy oppose all forms of FGC. [2] Posted by sultan.org (Member # 10368) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tibe: So you want all women to be forced to have this operation done if a gynecologis says its to big?????
Tibe, No i dont want to force any one to do anything I want to give freedom to any woman to do it or not according to her will..
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org: So from what has preceded it becomes clear that female circumcision - if done correctly - such that the cutting is limited, and done with proper instruments - is something prescribed and produces health and psychological benefits - and is far removed from harmful effects of danger
I have posted countless evidence of the various dangers and medical consequences by reputable sources. All of those are backed up by studies and everyone can check out the validity and the sources and verify this information for themselves.
All you've come up with in response is some very odd stuff by questionable sources, such as this excerpt above that does not become any more true or convincing if you post it three times in a row. Everyone reading this thread has seen an amount of evidence that leaves no doubt about the effects and dangers of FGM. So do you think people will disregard all this because someone on some dubious site mentions "benefits"?!? I think it's crystal clear to anyone except you that there are no benefits whatsoever.
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org: If you focus in ur posts , you will find out that u are talking about the harms that are due to illitaracy of people.
I have no clue how you manage to get this impression from reading my posts.
The articles I posted point out the various dangers of ANY FORM OF FGM in very clear words, and they oppose the procedure itself, no matter whether it's being done by a doctor or an illiterate midwife.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org: If the doctor saw it's useless, he wouldnt carry it out from the beginning.
And what would happen then? Right - the female relative, midwife or whoever would do it.
That was the whole point.
Posted by Tibe (Member # 10253) on :
And why change something of gods creations that is already perfect??? What adults choose to do with their body is their choice but when disgusting evil ideas like this is performed on little children - that makes me wish i was a violent murder.
Posted by sultan.org (Member # 10368) on :
Why is it necessary to shave the pubic hair and the armpit hair??
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
You still haven't answered those questions:
Why in the world should a healthy organ be mutilated just because of its size?
And what about "abnormally large" penises - should they also be surgically reduced?
Posted by sultan.org (Member # 10368) on :
Dalia,Your post of the medical risks addresses the severe cutting. I already know all these risks. you cant tell me risks about something I'm against it..
I'm against all types of FGM except one type which is described as Sunna Circumcision.
Posted by sultan.org (Member # 10368) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: You still haven't answered those questions:
Why in the world should a healthy organ be mutilated just because of its size?
And what about "abnormally large" penises - should they also be surgically reduced?
There is an equivalent operation for males too.
Posted by Tibe (Member # 10253) on :
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org: Why is it necessary to shave the pubic hair and the armpit hair??
Thats a fashion thing and doesn't hurt - and will grow again. Very bad comparison.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
You still haven't answered my other question - what exactly makes you think the size of an organ justifies any sort of surgical altering? God has created us all differently with organs and limbs in all shapes and sizes. Why should healthy parts of the body be cut and mutilated just because of their size???
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org: There is an equivalent operation for males too.
So do you suggest that all young boys should go and see a doctor in order to determine the "proper size"? And if the doctor decides that the penis is "too big" they should have an operation to have the size reduced?
Posted by Tibe (Member # 10253) on :
Whats next?? where does this stop??? When girls have to big breast they draw "unwanted attention" and maybe get sexual desires and fantasies. So she should have a breast reduction. When men have a nice strong sexy body and nice teeth with a beautifull smile-women desire him. He should be fed so he gets fat and have some of his teeth knocked out??????
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
one way to solve all this, as its all those women who are making problems with the size of their breats, the size of their sexual organs, looking at men with thier eyes, lets bury all baby girls alive when they are born, that would sort the problem.
ooppss i forgot, thats what they did before and Muhammed STOPPED it
Islamsweden/sultan.org read Quran, read Seerah, tell me in the WHOLE LIGHT of Islam HOW FGM comes into is as being SUNNA OR RIGHT.
Posted by sultan.org (Member # 10368) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: You still haven't answered my other question - what exactly makes you think the size of an organ justifies any sort of surgical altering? God has created us all differently with organs and limbs in all shapes and sizes. Why should healthy parts of the body be cut and mutilated just because of their size???
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org: There is an equivalent operation for males too.
So do you suggest that all young boys should go and see a doctor in order to determine the "proper size"? And if the doctor decides that the penis is "too big" they should have an operation to have the size reduced?
Ask the docors who made the 1st operation you posted about... I'm sure they will give you a clear answer... I get bored to explain it to you ...
quote: originally posted by Dalia In some cases older female relatives have merely performed another, more severe operation if they feel the procedure has not been carried out adequately.
Posted by Charm el Feikh? (Member # 10243) on :
OMG are we still 'debating' this 'size' thing? there is no part of the human body that is 'too big'... or at least i cant think of one.
Posted by Tibe (Member # 10253) on :
Yes some ego's might be - but they are are hard to remove
I could list some name suggestions for you but I think they are on vaccation right now, - so that wouldn't be much fun Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
So, islamsweden, where does GOD say its right? not a hadith or some 'fatwa' please, but a real GOD given verse, thank you.
Now please try to answer from GODS WORDS as I have asked twice before. What did GOD say about it?
still cant find any of Gods words about FGM then???
why dont you answer my question?
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org:
Anyway, aks your questions again one by one.
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
Islamsweden/sultan.org read Quran, read Seerah, tell me in the WHOLE LIGHT of Islam HOW FGM comes into is as being SUNNA OR RIGHT.
I'm wondering whether you'll ever get an answer to this question ... but somehow I doubt it ...
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org:
Ask the docors who made the 1st operation you posted about... I'm sure they will give you a clear answer...
I'm asking YOU because you are the one who is engaged in this discussion, and you are the one who is speaking about "proper sizes" and organs that are "too large". So how come you can't answer a simple question regarding the very thing you are trying to promote? You want to cut off all organs that are "not of proper size" but at the same time you have no clue as to how "proper size" should be defined?!? You don't find that contradictory? Or embarrassing?
Secondly, I assume by "the first operation you posted about" you mean clitoridotomy. But if you've educated yourself about the different types of mutilation you probably know that this type of surgery does NOT change the size of the clitoris altogether. So if people suggest an operation for reduction of size (like in some of the texts you posted) they are invariably referring to the second type of mutilation - clitoridectomy. I really don't understand how you manage to overlook this aspect.
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org: I get bored to explain it to you ...
You get bored explaining it to me? How come? I have not seen an explanation about what determines "proper size" anywhere in this thread.
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org: For Sure the gynecologist knows better and if he didnt knew the situation well, He wouldnt carry out the 1st operation which you mentioned in your post. The Gynecologis will determine the proper size and the benefits of this operation
I'm just trying to picture the situation you're suggesting ...
so you want to force all women to go to a doctor in order to determine whether their genitals are "proper size"?
Then the woman goes to the doctor who says "According to chart XYZ your clitoris is 5 millimeters too big, so we have to cut off a part, that will protect you from illness and bring psychological benefits. So then the woman will happily lie down on the operation table and have part of her genital chopped off?!?
Bizarre ...
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org:
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: You still haven't answered those questions:
Why in the world should a healthy organ be mutilated just because of its size?
And what about "abnormally large" penises - should they also be surgically reduced?
There is an equivalent operation for males too.
That does not answer my question. I was asking you whether you would suggest cutting off a part of the penis because it might be regarded as "too large". So what's your opinion on this? And you have not yet answered the first question either.
And could you please post some information on this equivalent operation? I did some research but couldn't find anything about it. The only thing I could find was "penile reduction surgery" but that refers to removal of the foreskin. I could not find anything about a procedure that would involve cutting off a part of the penis or cutting off its top - which would be the equivalent to the operation suggested for size reduction in some of yor posts.
Posted by sultan.org (Member # 10368) on :
I didnt mention the word "force"
I already answered your question in my earlier posts. I think you lack lots of basics that enable you to understand this Topic. You aren't the only one. Dont worry! Read this link and If you didnt understand Then i cant do anything else. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_circumcision#Clitoridotomy
Best regards
Posted by cinematic (Member # 11514) on :
Have you guys heard of or seen this movie called "Dunia" made by a Lebanese Director Jocelyn Saab? It discusses the FGM topic. They were attacked here claiming that a Lebanese can't make a film about something very Egyptian like that.... that's crap....
I have seen this movie & I loved it.... it's a shame it's not on cinemas here in Egypt.
Have you seen also the movie "Assrar El Banat" or "Girls' Secrets"? When the doctor in the hospital circumsized the girl during an Operation without her consent? That's a crime. What right does he have anyway? And even if she asked... it's a NO
Why are we discussing this topic anyway?.... FGM is a big NO NO.... end of story.
There is no If's or But's..... there is NO
Posted by cinematic (Member # 11514) on :
Cutting for the sake of reducing size or even for reducing a girl's sexual drive is exactly like cutting a child's tongue for preventing him/ her from using swear words!!!!!
So let's cut the boy's tongue so that when he grows up he doesn't swear... let's cut a part of or all of a girl's ciltoris so that when she grows up she doesn't become horny or a whore
That's silly
It is in the upbringing & not it the cutting
Posted by cinematic (Member # 11514) on :
Originally posted by sultan.org: For Sure the gynecologist knows better and if he didnt knew the situation well, He wouldnt carry out the 1st operation which you mentioned in your post. The Gynecologis will determine the proper size and the benefits of this operation
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dalia*: Why in the world should a healthy organ be mutilated just because of its size? And what about "abnormally large" penises - should they also be surgically reduced?
Exactly as Dalia said, why would a healthy organ be cut?? By the way, Isn't it mentioned in our religion that we are not supposed to alter anything that is god made.... that we can't alter our looks & have plastic surgery? Then why should we alter the size or shape of our genetalia if it is larger than normal? Isn't that contradicting
Posted by Demiana (Member # 2710) on :
"A few doctors and others advocate clitoridotomy of adults, promoting it as a way of increasing sexual sensitivity and sexual pleasure" (in the Wikepedia article mentioned above).
Relating this to FGM, especially where FGM is performed on children rather then adults is unfit reasoning and harmfull to the extinction of FGM.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org: I already answered your question in my earlier posts.
That's a lie, plain and simple.
You have not explained why a healthy, functioning organ that doesn't cause any problem whatsoever should be cut off and you have not answered the question about an equivalent operation for males anywhere in this thread. In fact, a similar question was directed at you by another member in the beginning of this discussion and you've ignored it as well.
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org: I think you lack lots of basics that enable you to understand this Topic. You aren't the only one. Dont worry!
If you don't have an answer or explanation to my questions, why don't you just say so?
Instead you try to divert from the issue by trying to insult me and suggesting I'm lacking the intelligence and knowledge to understand your posts. I noticed you do that in every thread when you're running out of arguments.
That's not only childish, it's simply bad discussion style. And it's more than a bit ironic that at the same time you claim to be following and imitating the prophet and his conduct!
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_circumcision#Clitoridotomy
I have no idea why you keep posting this link over and over while at the same time you're posting fatwas that advocate clitoridectomy. Do you think nobody will notice this contradiction?
You know, I've been wondering and trying to understand WHY you are so insistent on this, why you are so desperately clinging to absurd theories and the few voices who advocate it and why you prefer to believe the weakest evidence instead of the strongest and why you get so pasionate about this issue that you want to convince everyone.
I think you have a serious problem with women, I don't know where your fear and contempt come from, but it's quite obvious from your posts. You don't care in the least what women think, feel or want, you only care about your point of view and how YOU want women to be.
So consequently you seem to think sexual desire and sexual pleasure are reserved mainly for the man. Men are supposed to be active and sexual and women are supposed to be chaste and "shy" and passive, the idea that a woman could be as sexual and active as a man seems to deeply scare and upset you.
You still believe those "theories" that uncircumcized women need "ten men to fulfill their lust", that they will be constantly horny and that their genitals are somehow bad, dirty or ugly. And I think that's the true reason you like the idea of female circumcision so much.
Posted by sultan.org (Member # 10368) on :
oH! Dalia , My princess.
you answered urself
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by sultan.org: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_circumcision#Clitoridotomy --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dalai*: I have no idea why you keep posting this link over and over while at the same time you're posting fatwas that advocate clitoridectomy. Do you think nobody will notice this contradiction?
Posted by sultan.org (Member # 10368) on :
You just confirmed me that you dont understand my posts
I excuse u. No problem you dont have the basics to let u focus on this difference.
Posted by sultan.org (Member # 10368) on :
Ya ragal, your links are talkig about the wrong ways of making this operation.. Islam isnt responsible for the ignorance of people who dont follow it correctly
Posted by sultan.org (Member # 10368) on :
Reflect on this too
The harm that is attributed to this operation cannot be ascribed to circumcision itself, rather to two matters:
1) Cutting too severely - as occurs in some Islamic lands - such that the clitoris or its hood is totally removed, indeed sometimes even the outer lips (labia) are removed and the vaginal orifice closed. It is essential to point out here that this is not the prescribed Shariah method by the Messenger (SAW) who warned against its saying: "When you circumcise then do not do so severely…"
2) Or the harm is also due to this operation being carried out by those who do not specialize in this field, or by the use of unsterilized instruments which causes infection or harmful illnesses.
So when we consider this harm, we find that it is not caused by circumcision itself, but rather by contradicting the text forbidding cutting severely, or by using unhygienic instruments, and this cannot be used to prevent the operation itself - if properly performed - since it male circumcision were to be performed by cutting to excess or with unhygienic instruments - then that would also be detested and rejected. So would this be a reason to prevent male circumcision? So the same goes with regard to females.
So from what has preceded it becomes clear that female circumcision - if done correctly - such that the cutting is limited, and done with proper instruments - is something prescribed and produces health and psychological benefits - and is far removed from harmful effects of danger.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org: -dectomy
-dotomy
U didnt notice the defernce!
Of course I know the difference, that's exactly what I was speaking about.
I was pointing out that some of the fatwas you're posting advocate clitoridectomy although you pretend they don't by claiming they only speak about clitoridotomy.
I've explained that about five times in this thread ... why is it so difficult for you to understand a statement written in clear English?
Posted by sultan.org (Member # 10368) on :
No clitoridectomy
but clitoridotomy It is also known as Sunna circumcision (named after the Arabic word for anything approved by Islamic law and centred in Islamic tradition
This is what I meant.. The emams arenot doctors so, their sources they are based on meant clitoridotomy
sutlan you want harm women ? i spit on you.
Posted by sultan.org (Member # 10368) on :
I smell idiot minds
Posted by Ricochet (Member # 11551) on :
time you took bath then sultan Posted by sultan.org (Member # 10368) on :
No, when I see someone changing his name from "$hit" to "chet". He shouldnot do it because his smell will reaveal it. Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org: Reflect on this too
Apart from the fact that most of this is utter nonsense from a medical point of view, this text (and the rest of it which you posted before) says the procedure should be performed on newborn girls!
I'd rather not reflect on the implications of that ...
Posted by bibo1978 (Member # 9287) on :
Simply from islamic point of view we will need to answer some points:
1- Is FGM "Haram"?
Apparently, not but it is not encouraged nor it is anyway related sunnah
2-If an islamic Government forbid FGM for some reason should muslims obey this?
I think yes they should obey and if they do it then it is kind of haram, under not obeying governmental orders.
From social point of view we would answer this
3- Why do people practice this kind of operation?
I think it is kind of custom and that defines why it is not distributed in islamic countries, the fact that this operation doesn't happen in Madina shows that it is totally unrelated to islam. Just a custom, and in my opnion one should never follow any custom blindly especially when it comes to deal with other human beings except it is proven to be a nesscity or helpful like male genitile agumentation.
From medical point of view we would need to answer this 4- When should FGM be used?
I guess if it is proven that FGM must be done as some medical urge, then it should be practiced, I am not a doctor and I won't go into debates around that but I only want to state that if some trust medical reason occurs which needs FGM then FGM should be done. I don't know any reason but I an analog to this would be the plastic surgeries that deals with some major defciency in a body organ which sometimes is necessary to be done to yeild some healthy life or release some pain .. etc.
Posted by CairoStudent (Member # 10528) on :
Ok I would never let me daughter out of my sight in Egypt, this is so common and accepted!
SCARY
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: From medical point of view we would need to answer this 4- When should FGM be used?
I guess if it is proven that FGM must be done as some medical urge
if some trust medical reason occurs which needs FGM then FGM should be done.
If you're speaking in medical terms it would be absolutely inappropriate to use the word "mutilation" as in "FGM".
to mutilate: to injure, disfigure, or make imperfect by removing or irreparably damaging parts Posted by CairoStudent (Member # 10528) on :
Our Western books of science and medicine are the products of our free thought.
The poster advocating FGM has not the benefit of our free thought and freedom of inquiry.
She is simply blind, like in Plato's Allegory of the Cave.
The nature of reality for her is different than ours.
And this is why I tend to call so many Egyptians 'Cave man" and "cave woman".
More education would be more helpful, and International Ban on FGM and a pressure from all aspects.
In regards of adults they can do whatever they want - it's none of our bussiness but children should be protected legally at least until the age of 18.
FGM also serves as an excuse for cheating men and many other things, a reason to divorce a woman based on her sexual incompetency, it's all connected and weird and stupid and cruel and insulting to women all over the world and God itself.
Posted by WOTEVER (Member # 11942) on :
Three months ago, 22 year old medical student Najwa Khasmera Abdullah decided to have herself circumcised.
Female circumcision was banned in Egypt in 1998. As a result, many young women of Najwa's age did not recieve circumcision at the age they were normally have it, around 15 or so.
However, in the past few years, the ban started to lose its grip, due to pressure from religious leaders. " Uncircumcised women have strong lust and often commit adultery, just like western women. The government made a mistake by banning it. We Egyptians should not be pressured by the western countries. We need to keep our women chaste" a religious leader stated.
" A lot of my friends are getting it done. My sister and cousins too. We didn't get circumcised when younger because it was banned, but now I'm glad I'm finally circumcised" Najwa said.
Her claims were confirmed by Dr. Yasmina Shamir, who runs a circumcision clinic and also performed Najwa's circumcicion. " I circumcise more adult patients lately, sometimes 10 young women a day. Mostly of Najwa's age. "They didn't get circumcised when younger because of the ban. But when they want to get married, usually the men demands that the women must be circumcised before marriage."
Being a medical student, Najwa is completely aware of the female anatomy and the function of the clitoris, which is removed during circumcision " I think circumcision is good for women. I know the clitoris can bring pleasure, but it is also a great temptation for women. It's best to remove it. Women don't need their clitoris for marriage and having children anyway." She said
"I don't agree with girls being circumcised by untrained village midwife with unsterile razor. That's why I chose to have my circumcision done by a doctor" Najwa said while showing her preserved clitoris in a jar.
"Female circumcision is a very minor and safe surgery under modern medical supervision. The wound is even smaller than that of male circumcision" Dr. Shamir stated. She also stated that female circumcision procedure done by trained doctors has become increasingly affordable even by poor families. Some Islamic Foundation or Mosque even routinely provide free circumcision for the poor, both males and females.
Well, old habit die hard, people say. Looks like Egyptian women are not going to let themselves go wild like their western sisters.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by WOTEVER: Three months ago, 22 year old medical student Najwa Khasmera Abdullah decided to have herself circumcised.
Do you think Egyp people r stupid to a degraa not to see hoax and right stuff?
Are you egyptian or expat?
fathima309@yahoo.com why she write her email?? Posted by yazid904 (Member # 7708) on :
FGM should not even be considered in a modern society. If it is, then it should be individual personal choice not some iman puttiing his head where it does not belong!
Why not use jihad as struggle for self liberation and to destroy ignorance. allahu akbar
Posted by Chinderella non of ur Biz (Member # 11953) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Found that and searching for others
The secretions of the labia minora accumulate in uncircumcised women and turn rancid, so they develop an unpleasant odour which may lead to infections of the vagina or urethra. I have seen many cases of sickness caused by the lack of circumcision.
Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the clitoris which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse.
Another benefit of circumcision is that it prevents stimulation of the clitoris which makes it grow large in such a manner that it causes pain.
Circumcision prevents spasms of the clitoris which are a kind of inflammation.
Circumcision reduces excessive sexual desire.
OMG.... no comment Posted by Chinderella non of ur Biz (Member # 11953) on :
quote:Originally posted by geezer:
quote:Originally posted by Snapdragon: A website about Islam does not make the practice right or humane. It is clearly disgusting and the men are the ones who need to be controlled, not the women. Another backwards tradition throughout the uncivilized Middle East and Africa.
You can't walk anywhere in the Middle East without getting either stared at, whistled or even touched. What happened to the "lower your gaze" crap?????? If they can't keep from the whistling and the harrassment, how can they even begin to lower their gaze?
quote:Originally posted by geezer:
quote:Originally posted by newcomer: Who wrote that garbage? Please give your reference.
OK, chill. I don't agree with it either. newcomer asked where it was from, and I gave the source. I don't like Islam-qa.com in the first place - thought the answer was typical for them.
Oh What's in a Name, you're just being helpful & resourceful... And that's what you get being on ES? anything one would say, it becomes misunderstood Posted by Chinderella non of ur Biz (Member # 11953) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Risks of uncommon large clitoris
The birth of hydrocephalic babies. Poisoning of the mothers milk. Bad genital odors. Vaginal cancer. Masturbation. Homosexuality. Adult nervousness. Neurosis due to excessive sex drive.
If that occurs to women , It will be your responsibiliy..
A woman become a homosexual? Posted by Egyptian_batman (Member # 11915) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chinderella non of ur Biz:
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Risks of uncommon large clitoris
The birth of hydrocephalic babies. Poisoning of the mothers milk. Bad genital odors. Vaginal cancer. Masturbation. Homosexuality. Adult nervousness. Neurosis due to excessive sex drive.
If that occurs to women , It will be your responsibiliy..
A woman become a homosexual?
entey lessa so3'ayyara, 2otta me3'amada. sebek entey mn ilhagat deh. de 7agat 3eeb
Posted by Chinderella non of ur Biz (Member # 11953) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: [qb] I don't understand this post of yours at all. What's this stuff about seeking knowledge???
Islamsweden, it is crystal clear to everyone reading this thread that you know nothing about the subject. Your initial questions and posts made that very obvious. I find it very strange that you're now lecturing us on lacking knowledge since it's very obvious that you have done anything but extensive research on this subject. Rather it looks like you've browsed a few sites the last couple of days and picked up a few obnoxious things that you've quoted here and presented as facts - without any backup, I might add. You also posted a lot of outrageously ridiculous stuff that, according to yourself, you've "heard somewhere". You even change your opinion from post to post as we can see in the last part of the quote below.
Several people have addressed very valid questions to you regarding the sources, the validity, the logic and the consequences of the "facts" you present here. You have ignored all of those. Yet you're suggesting you know better than everyone else.
Do you call this a comprehensive approach to seeking knowledge?!?
[QUOTE] I seriously doubt that there's such a thing as an "uncommonly large" clitoris that requires any kind of surgical manipulation. These ideas seem to stem from ignorance about female bodies and sexuality as well as from a deep fear of the latter. I have never heard of this as a common medical problem; in fact the only times I've read about this weird theory has been in texts that try to promote female circumcision.
And who decides what's "uncommonly large"? What exactly is that supposed to mean? I haven't heard of any charts or guidelines that determine which size a sexual organ has to be. We are all different in our size, our physical attributes and such, how can you say what is "normal" and what is not? And what gives us the right to manipulate what God has given us??? The last time I checked this was supposed to be a sin. (4:119-121)
In some African countries those myths are still perpetuated and spread. Women are told that if they aren't circumcized their clitoris will continue growing until it will be obscenely large. They are threatened that this will be horrible and disgusting, that they will get sick and no man will ever want them ... and the women don't know any better, so of course they believe this, and continue this horrible practice ... All these ideas seem to stem from the same sort of thinking / ideology. Believing and further spreading those tales is not only stupid but also dangerous.
Secondly, it is a MYTH that the size of a person's sexual organs has an influence on their libido and conduct. Thus it's complete and utter nonsense to suggest that manipulating the size of a person's genital will have an effect on that. And this makes some of the arguments I've read on here completely obsolete!
" ... Islamic teachings decisively reject all social beliefs that lead the society to practicing female circumcision.
People claiming that women have neither reason nor will and those saying that women's desire for sex exceeds that of men 25-fold, do not offer even one evidence, be it built on legal text, reason, or a scientific fact, to support their claims which clearly contradict the Islamic teachings and principles. The Prophet (PBUH) says, "Women are equals to men." Such a Prophetic text refutes all these claims.
Because the woman is equal to the man in having feelings, desire, reason, and conscience, she, thus, can keep religious teachings, respect her body, and maintain her chastity, a thing which makes her grow upright and righteous in all her affairs. Some say that circumcision is to regulate and control woman's desire for sex. However, such a saying comes contradictory to the scientific fact that woman's desire for sex emanates from the brain and not sexual organs. It goes without saying that the sexual behavior of the man or the woman, be right or not, is determined according to the brain which gives instructions to the organs of the body. It means that the body serves and obeys the brain in all instinctive human desires such as those of food, sleep, and sex. In other words, the sexual organs have nothing to do in determining the sexual desire or conduct. Therefore, female circumcision does not, from the scientific point of view, help regulate or control the sexual desire or conduct of the woman. The sexual desire and conduct of the circumcised and uncircumcised woman are dependent on morals, education, and the family among whom she lives. In fact, disorder occurs when the woman comes to be deprived of some natural functions as a result of removing some of her natural organs responsible for performing such functions.
Chastity, decency, and purity are Islamic virtues required from both the man and woman equally. Bringing up on righteous morals and purifying the souls with religion and piety constitute the effective and real restraint for the man and woman alike. ..."
That's excellent Dalia thank you for putting it altogether in such a brilliant way... I think after reading your post, topic should be closed because there is no way to argue against that... yet I see this thread still getting excessively long
As Aiysha said... It's makes you dizzy going around in circles
I think that Sultan or islam Weden is the one who is very slow to understand & not us... after all he's the one who keeps arguing against scientic facts claiming that he knows about science & that everyone else here insults him because they don't understand.... In other words he means to say that we are the idiots! Posted by Egyptian_batman (Member # 11915) on :
[That's excellent Dalia thank you for putting it altogether in such a brilliant way... I think after reading your post, topic should be closed because there is no way to argue against that...]
Go on , it's 6 pages lessa
Posted by Chinderella non of ur Biz (Member # 11953) on :
quote:Originally posted by Egyptian_batman: [That's excellent Dalia thank you for putting it altogether in such a brilliant way... I think after reading your post, topic should be closed because there is no way to argue against that...]
Go on , it's 6 pages lessa
I know... somehow the rest of my post didnt appear at first
Posted by Egyptian_batman (Member # 11915) on :
I have an opinion
Some sheiks says it's advisable for female and some sheikhs says it's not islamic
in Both cases, we need to see the medical point of view from The Egyptian Doctors not from The Expats.
Posted by WOTEVER (Member # 11942) on :
I didn't find it there i found it on a separate islamic site while I was doing some research last night/ this morning.
Posted by Chinderella non of ur Biz (Member # 11953) on :
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org:
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: women of hot climates often have a large clitoris which arouses their desires when it rubs against the adjacent clothing.
Those "arguments" are getting more ridiculous with every post.
Men of all climates usually have a penis that, whatever its size, rubs against the adjacent clothing.
I don't think anyone with all his senses intact would suggest cutting off the penis in order to prevent this ...
i think you dont know lots about women's and men's genitalia! you cant post this post except if you are kidding or lacking information.
And do you WEDEN know about genetalia? Are you a doctor to claim that you know about women's clit sizes? Posted by Chinderella non of ur Biz (Member # 11953) on :
quote:Originally posted by Charm el Feikh?: oh my... islamsweden, do you really have a daughter?!
OK, im going to try to reach you now...
i feel it has some comparison to me having my daughters breasts removed at age 13 to protect her from breast cancer.
i know its not the same thing, but please see the comparison.
LoL.... that's a point & actually I can see a comparison.
How about cutting nipples since they are sensitive & especially when rubbing against our clothes? And hence, can be seen through our blouses??...
Posted by Chinderella non of ur Biz (Member # 11953) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Tibe: So do you want them to obey a kind of religious law and force them to have their clit measured in point of posible reduction
Yeah, I've been wondering about this ever since this argument was first brought up, but never got an explanation. Who decides what is "large", and when is "large" = "abnormal"? And why in the world should a healthy organ be mutilated just because of its size? And what about "abnormally large" penises - following this weird logic they should also be surgically reduced!
or abnormally small penises that should be surgically extended
Posted by Chinderella non of ur Biz (Member # 11953) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sub-zero: Honestly, I don't get it. I mean if one of the arguments displayed here that promotes cutting the clitoris because it causes friction with garnments in "hot" countries, does that mean that friction is not caused by garnments in cold countries?
Logic says, for the sake of conversation, that if any woman has a large clitoris that gets in the way of anything, should be treated individually as a medical case that requires surgery, and looked upon as any other case as such, like removing her apendix or something.
The problem with us, Arabs, that we always read things and deal with them with religious eyes only. We have an incrediable amount of heritage mixed up with traditions, sayings, experiences mingled up with religion beliefs that became a very thick unshakable paste surrounding our senses. We locked ourselves in the past and constantly refusing to accept anything else beside our infamous handed down catalouge. If we want a place in this world, this, for starters, has to change.
Why is it any man's problem what a woman has in her own body? What bothers men so much that a woman, who happens to be a creature with feelings and emotions just like the man, can enjoy sex more or less like the man? Why deny her the right? If religious people boast that Islam is the religion of "Fitra", why is it selective? Why is that considered a taboo? Is it selfishness, control, chauvaunism?
Sub-Zero, good post
I too dont understand why people mix religion with everything else
I think it'd be perfect if we do the basic duties & treat people the way we want to be treated.
Posted by Egyptian_batman (Member # 11915) on :
Ya gama3a ilmawdoo3 mish keda 7'alees. entom mish fahmeen 7agah it;s not like this
it;s like Female circumcision is like male circumcision. the two r for religious reasons. like the sunna that say cutting the hair around the genitalia is somthing of cleaness.
You find religious people do it either male or female. they want to obey the Sunnah. So leave them alone they do what they want free.
Some people see the shiks saying female circumcssion is advisable and suna. they take this route. we should NOT attack them. We need to shut up becuz it doesnt matter for us
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
Thursday, 2 November 2006
Father jailed for US mutilation
A man has been sentenced to 10 years in jail for the genital mutilation of his two-year-old daughter, in what is said to be first such case in the US.
Khalid Adem, an Ethiopian immigrant, was found guilty of aggravated battery and cruelty to children by the court in the state of Georgia.
Prosecutors said he used scissors to remove his daughter's clitoris in 2001.
A US women's rights group described the verdict as a victory against female genital mutilation worldwide.
Girl's testimony
Adem, 30, wept loudly as the jury's verdict was read in the town of Lawrenceville.
During the trial, he denied the charges and said he found the practice to be reprehensible.
The girl, who is now seven, had testified on videotape that her father "cut me on my private part".
The daughter's mother had said she did not discover that the child was mutilated until nearly two years later.
"This was a violation of her rights as a child, her rights as a woman, and most of all her rights as a human being, she will never be the same," Fortunate Adem said in the courtroom, according to a tape recording broadcast by local radio station WSB.
Equality Now, a US women's rights group, said it was the first recorded case of female genital mutilation in the country.
A recent report by the World Health Organization condemned genital mutilation, saying it caused infection, appalling pain and serious long-term injury.
The practice is part of tradition in a number of African countries. Some communities there believe it helps to preserve a girl's honour. ?
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: Prosecutors said he used scissors to remove his daughter's clitoris in 2001.
[/QB]
OMG, ouchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
quote: The daughter's mother had said she did not discover that the child was mutilated until nearly two years later.
She is a liar & a B!tch....... she didnt discover it until 2 years later? Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by ChinderallaAngelTormentor CAT: She is a liar & a B!tch....... she didnt discover it until 2 years later?
Yeah, I stumbled upon this part as well. How can a mother not notice unless she never bathed her child or never changed her diapers?!? That's very hard to believe.
Posted by ChinderallaAngelTormentor CAT (Member # 11953) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by ChinderallaAngelTormentor CAT: She is a liar & a B!tch....... she didnt discover it until 2 years later?
Yeah, I stumbled upon this part as well. How can a mother not notice unless she never bathed her child or never changed her diapers?!? That's very hard to believe.
Exactly..... who doesnt bathe their 5 or 7 year olds??!!!!!!
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
Well, the child was supposed to be two years old when he did that, and usually two year old girls are not potty trained. So if you're around a child that's wearing diapers you can't help seeing their genitals once in a while, even if you don't change the diapers yourself. And I find it very hard to believe the mother should never have changed her kid's diapers ...
I'm sure there will be more comprehensive reports on this case that might explain this.
Posted by ChinderallaAngelTormentor CAT (Member # 11953) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: [QB] Well, the child was supposed to be two years old when he did that, and usually two year old girls are not potty trained. So if you're around a child that's wearing diapers you can't help seeing their genitals once in a while, even if you don't change the diapers yourself. And I find it very hard to believe the mother should never have changed her kid's diapers ...
I'm sure there will be more comprehensive reports on this case that might explain this.
oh..... okay I didnt notice the date
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
TARGET’s “Conference of Hope” in Cairo!
Under the patronage of the Grand Mufti of the Azhar Islamic Scholars debate the ban on female genital mutilation and violence in Islam.
22./23. November 2006
8,000 girls suffer genital mutilation every day. 150 million women worldwide live with this trauma. Now it is to end. At the invitation of Rüdiger Nehberg’s human rights organisation TARGET, the most senior Islamic scholars from all over the world meet at the Azhar University in Cairo to discuss a ban. Azhar University is the most renowned theological centre of Sunnite Islam. Its decrees give direction to Muslims across the globe. Professor Ali Goma’a, Grand Mufti of the Azhar and most senior judge of Islamic law, is the patron of the conference. The conference is unique in history.
Le Grand Mufti Professor Goma’a clearly expresses the spirit of the conference: “It concerns the grim reality of female genital mutilation and the attitude of Islam to the sanctity of the female body. It also concerns a ban on aggression in any form and respect for people's dignity and honour.”
The conference participants come from Egypt, Somalia, Chad, Mali, Mauritania, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Nigeria, Dschibuti, Morocco, Turkey and Russia. Four distinguished doctors from Arabia, Ethiopia and Germany will demonstrate to the theologists and legal scholars that any form of female genital mutilation damages women physically and mentally. Professor Kentenich attends from Berlin.
As it states in the Qur'an that no Muslim may cause unprovoked physical or mental harm to another person, the Grand Mufti declared the custom as a sin for all believers - the aim of the conference.
Heidemarie Wieczorek-Zeul, German Minister for Economic Cooperation and Development, addressed the conference and authorised a financial grant. “The statement that is to be issued from one of the most renowned theological academies in the Islamic world, cannot be estimated highly enough in its significance for religious policy and with regard to the positive consequences for the inviolability of young girls and women.”
Watch this pathetic excuse for a human being coming up with the most ludicrious arguments in order to justify FGM. But be warned, this is highly nauseating.
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: Watch this pathetic excuse for a human being coming up with the most ludicrious arguments in order to justify FGM. But be warned, this is highly nauseating.
LOL, "i have no relation to reality, reality is a mistake, we must rectify it"
the man's a nut
Posted by sultan.org(In Makka ) (Member # 10368) on :
quote:Originally posted by WOTEVER: Three months ago, 22 year old medical student Najwa Khasmera Abdullah decided to have herself circumcised.
Female circumcision was banned in Egypt in 1998. As a result, many young women of Najwa's age did not recieve circumcision at the age they were normally have it, around 15 or so.
However, in the past few years, the ban started to lose its grip, due to pressure from religious leaders. " Uncircumcised women have strong lust and often commit adultery, just like western women. The government made a mistake by banning it. We Egyptians should not be pressured by the western countries. We need to keep our women chaste" a religious leader stated.
" A lot of my friends are getting it done. My sister and cousins too. We didn't get circumcised when younger because it was banned, but now I'm glad I'm finally circumcised" Najwa said.
Her claims were confirmed by Dr. Yasmina Shamir, who runs a circumcision clinic and also performed Najwa's circumcicion. " I circumcise more adult patients lately, sometimes 10 young women a day. Mostly of Najwa's age. "They didn't get circumcised when younger because of the ban. But when they want to get married, usually the men demands that the women must be circumcised before marriage."
Being a medical student, Najwa is completely aware of the female anatomy and the function of the clitoris, which is removed during circumcision " I think circumcision is good for women. I know the clitoris can bring pleasure, but it is also a great temptation for women. It's best to remove it. Women don't need their clitoris for marriage and having children anyway." She said
"I don't agree with girls being circumcised by untrained village midwife with unsterile razor. That's why I chose to have my circumcision done by a doctor" Najwa said while showing her preserved clitoris in a jar.
"Female circumcision is a very minor and safe surgery under modern medical supervision. The wound is even smaller than that of male circumcision" Dr. Shamir stated. She also stated that female circumcision procedure done by trained doctors has become increasingly affordable even by poor families. Some Islamic Foundation or Mosque even routinely provide free circumcision for the poor, both males and females.
Well, old habit die hard, people say. Looks like Egyptian women are not going to let themselves go wild like their western sisters.
Posted by sultan.org(In Makka ) (Member # 10368) on :
quote:She is a liar & a B!tch....... she didnt discover it until 2 years later? [/QB]
This is a proof of a fake story.
Posted by SayWhatYouSee (Member # 11552) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: Watch this pathetic excuse for a human being coming up with the most ludicrious arguments in order to justify FGM. But be warned, this is highly nauseating.
I can't bring myself to watch, sorry, Dalia. Sultan's views are as far into the dark side as I care to venture. It's disturbing that men like this exist in the world. Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ):
quote:She is a liar & a B!tch....... she didnt discover it until 2 years later?
This is a proof of a fake story. [/QB]
Well, SOMEbody chopped the girl's genital off, that can hardly be faked, right? So whether it was the father who did it or the mother or anyone else doesn't really matter. Fact is, someone with views similar to your own and brainwashed by the same ideology did something terrible to that little girl that changed her life forever. Strange that there doesn't seem to be a hint of compassion on your part.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Tibe:
So do you want them to obey a kind of religious law and force them to have their clit measured in point of posible reduction
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
Who decides what is "large", and when is "large" = "abnormal"? And why in the world should a healthy organ be mutilated just because of its size? And what about "abnormally large" penises - following this weird logic they should also be surgically reduced!
quote:Originally posted by Tibe:
Islamsweden.org please tell me who has to be the judge on which clit is so big it needs to be cut?????????? And do the women have anything to say or should it be done by force or at birth
Why don't you answer these questions, islamsweden?
You still haven't answered those questions, sultan! Posted by magnona777 (Member # 12466) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by WOTEVER: Three months ago, 22 year old medical student Najwa Khasmera Abdullah decided to have herself circumcised.
I agree.. hoax.. come on.. she saved it in a jar???? Posted by homing pigeon (Member # 8039) on :
quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: I can't bring myself to watch, sorry, Dalia. Sultan's views are as far into the dark side as I care to venture. It's disturbing that men like this exist in the world.
I agree double strong on that.....It's bad for my health!! I cant take the anger reaction.
Put them all in a line and shoot them AT DAWN, saves the world some pain....or better still, cut off their own private parts to keep them chaste......They couldnt object to that surely, do they want to burn in hell or what?
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
Interview with Imam Cheick Mohamad Diallo
Every Day a New Battle against Circumcision in Mali
Charlotte Wiedemann talks with Imam Cheick Mohamad Diallo, Secretary General of an association of West African Muslims and Christians against circumcision, about his difficult battle against female genital circumcision in Mali
An international conference of Islamic scholars, who gathered in November 2006 at Azhar University in Cairo, condemned female genital circumcision as a "harmful, deplorable custom." Muslims should "prohibit this deplorable custom in compliance with the teachings of Islam" and declare the act to be a "crime."
A subsequent conference led by the Supreme Mufti of Egypt, and financed again by the German human rights initiative "Target," was supposed to be held in September in Mali, where genital mutilation is prevalent throughout the country. This plan has now fallen through: Mali's president Amadou Toumani Touré is afraid to lend the conference his patronage.
You participated in the first conference of Islamic scholars on the topic of genital mutilation. Does a resolution from Cairo's Azhar University have any influence in Mali?
Imam Cheick Mohamad Diallo: We have distributed the text of the fatwa here, but that had very little effect. The Supreme Islamic Council and the Association of Imams, everyone here is in favor of circumcision, even the Muslim intellectuals. Ninety-five percent of Muslims here think that circumcision is Islamic. This must be changed; otherwise it will be impossible to educate the people.
The religious authorities must change their views, otherwise our education efforts will never succeed. I myself have been excluded from the Association of Imams since 2000, because I called circumcision non-Islamic in a televised sermon. This exclusion persists today.
Why does circumcision have such deep roots in Mali?
Diallo: Mali is unique in the region. By now every other West African country has legally prohibited circumcision; in Mali the government is afraid to do so. In Senegal, for instance, the largest ethnic group, the Wolof, do not practice circumcision; only the smaller ethnic groups do. It was thus easier there to introduce a law banning it. But in Mali all the ethnic groups advocate it! The only exception are the Malians of Arab descent, but they make up only around two percent of the population.
The people believe that a circumcised girl is more likely to be sexually faithful, and this is very important to them with regard to their daughters. We are in a country with more than 50 percent illiteracy, and the idea has been put in their heads that an uncircumcised woman will go sexually astray. But we cannot cut something off a woman to make her be faithful! This is what we keep telling people. It is a matter of upbringing, mentality, not of cutting something off!
Mali's Christians are also circumcised. But the Muslims adhere very stubbornly to this tradition. Why?
Diallo: In fact, the problem here are the Muslims in particular, for an amalgam of tradition and religion exists on their side. There are so many disputed Hadiths on the topic of circumcision that it is virtually impossible for uneducated people to make sense of it all. And everything that we say to the devout about the health consequences, about the medical problems, fades when he hears in the mosque: circumcision is Islamic. Then he does not listen to any others – or he immediately forgets it again.
But circumcision is neither Islamic nor religious! Islam even explicitly condemns such acts. In the Koran God says (the Imam cites in Arabic): "We have created man in the perfect form." In the perfect form! How do you understand this if you believe that something has to be cut off?!
Are Malian preachers sufficiently familiar with Islamic teachings?
Diallo: No, not at all! Most of them have not had a classical Islamic education. They have attended a Koran school for three, four, five years at the most; then they become preachers. Often they cannot even interpret the Koran. This is a big problem. And there are many Imams in Mali who cannot read Arabic. An Imam who does not know Arabic! The majority of preachers and Imams here do not have sufficient information.
You yourself studied in Egypt and in Morocco. What influenced your views on circumcision?
Diallo: I have been fighting against circumcision for 22 years. I have seen horrible cases. I have seen what the mutilation does to a person. And I have participated in international conferences, I have contact to Azhar University, to the Muftis in Egypt and in Saudi Arabia. I exchange information with others. Most of Mali's Muslims do not have the opportunity to do so; they have no contact whatsoever with the Islamic world outside Mali. This makes a big difference.
What can you do to improve the state of knowledge?
Diallo: Every day is a new battle! We opponents of circumcision are a small minority; among Imams we are only two to three percent. And there are thousands of Imams in Mali; alone in the capital city Bamako there are more than a thousand mosques. I speak on the radio, but not every station will allow it. I address the topic in my sermons, but it's not always possible.
Have you been defamed?
Diallo: I have many enemies and all kinds of problems. Many Imams will not offer me their hand; many will not talk to me. I have even been physically attacked, here in the yard of my own house, near the mosque by fanatics who had received money to attack me. My house was guarded by the police for two weeks in order to protect me. It is all very, very difficult.
After Cairo you wanted to hold a second Islamic conference on circumcision in Mali. This now appears to be impossible. How do you assess the stance of the Mali government?
Diallo: The government has to change its politics. It must finally realize that it must not join forces with the religious organizations in this matter. There is a government program against circumcision – but unfortunately it does not have the support of the government. It is all talk! If the president really dealt with the issue, if he stood behind the education campaigns, then we would have fewer problems. I don't know what he is afraid of.
You yourself have four daughters. Are they circumcised?
Diallo: We live here in a large household, in an extended family. One of my brothers had his daughters circumcised, another one did not. I will not let my daughters be circumcised. And they will not experience any disadvantages later because of it.
why all this old post Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
A Cutting Tradition
When a girl is taken — usually by her mother — to a free circumcision event held each spring in Bandung, Indonesia, she is handed over to a small group of women who, swiftly and yet with apparent affection, cut off a small piece of her genitals. Sponsored by the Assalaam Foundation, an Islamic educational and social-services organization, circumcisions take place in a prayer center or an emptied-out elementary-school classroom where desks are pushed together and covered with sheets and a pillow to serve as makeshift beds. The procedure takes several minutes. There is little blood involved. Afterward, the girl’s genital area is swabbed with the antiseptic Betadine. She is then helped back into her underwear and returned to a waiting area, where she’s given a small, celebratory gift — some fruit or a donated piece of clothing — and offered a cup of milk for refreshment. She has now joined a quiet majority in Indonesia, where, according to a 2003 study by the Population Council, an international research group, 96 percent of families surveyed reported that their daughters had undergone some form of circumcision by the time they reached 14.
These photos were taken in April 2006, at the foundation’s annual mass circumcision, which is free and open to the public and held during the lunar month marking the birth of the prophet Muhammad. The Assalaam Foundation runs several schools and a mosque in Bandung, Indonesia’s third-largest city and the capital of West Java. The photographer Stephanie Sinclair was taken to the circumcision event by a reproductive-health observer from Jakarta and allowed to spend several hours there. Over the course of that Sunday morning, more than 200 girls were circumcised, many of them appearing to be under the age of 5. Meanwhile, in a nearby building, more than 100 boys underwent a traditional circumcision as well.
According to Lukman Hakim, the foundation’s chairman of social services, there are three “benefits” to circumcising girls.
“One, it will stabilize her libido,” he said through an interpreter. “Two, it will make a woman look more beautiful in the eyes of her husband. And three, it will balance her psychology.”
Female genital cutting — commonly identified among international human rights groups as female genital mutilation — has been outlawed in 15 African countries. Many industrialized countries also have similar laws. Both France and the U.S. have prosecuted immigrant residents for performing female circumcisions.
In Indonesia, home to the world’s largest Muslim population, a debate over whether to ban female circumcision is in its early stages. The Ministry of Health has issued a decree forbidding medical personnel to practice it, but the decree which has yet to be backed by legislation does not affect traditional circumcisers and birth attendants, who are thought to do most female circumcisions. Many agree that a full ban is unlikely without strong support from the country’s religious leaders. According to the Population Council study, many Indonesians view circumcision for boys and girls as a religious duty.
Female circumcision in Indonesia is reported to be less extreme than the kind practiced in other parts of the globe — Africa, particularly. Worldwide, female genital cutting affects up to 140 million women and girls in varying degrees of severity, according to estimates from the World Health Organization. The most common form of female genital cutting, representing about 80 percent of cases around the world, includes the excision of the clitoris and the labia minora. A more extreme version of the practice, known as Pharaonic circumcision or infibulation, accounts for 15 percent of cases globally and involves the removal of all external genitalia and a stitching up of the vaginal opening.
Studies have shown that in some parts of Indonesia, female circumcision is more ritualistic — a rite of passage meant to purify the genitals and bestow gender identity on a female child — with a practitioner rubbing turmeric on the genitals or pricking the clitoris once with a needle to draw a symbolic drop of blood. In other instances, the procedure is more invasive, involving what WHO classifies as “Type I” female genital mutilation, defined as excision of the clitoral hood, called the prepuce, with or without incision of the clitoris itself. The Population Council’s 2003 study said that 82 percent of Indonesian mothers who witnessed their daughters’ circumcision reported that it involved “cutting.” The women most often identified the clitoris as the affected body part. The amount of flesh removed, if any, was alternately described by circumcisers as being the size of a quarter-grain of rice, a guava seed, a bean, the tip of a leaf, the head of a needle.
At the Assalaam Foundation, traditional circumcisers say they learn the practice from other women during several years of apprenticing. Siti Rukasitta, who has been a circumciser at the foundation for 20 years, said through an interpreter that they use a small pair of sterilized scissors to cut a piece of the clitoral prepuce about the size of a nail clipping. Population Council observers who visited the event before the 2003 study, however, reported that they also witnessed some cases of circumcisers cutting the clitoris itself.
Any distinction between injuring the clitoris or the clitoral hood is irrelevant, says Laura Guarenti, an obstetrician and WHO’s medical officer for child and maternal health in Jakarta. “The fact is there is absolutely no medical value in circumcising girls,” she says. “It is 100 percent the wrong thing to be doing.” The circumcision of boys, she adds, has demonstrated health benefits, namely reduced risk of infection and some protection against H.I.V.
Nonetheless, as Western awareness of female genital cutting has grown, anthropologists, policy makers and health officials have warned against blindly judging those who practice it, saying that progress is best made by working with local leaders and opinion-makers to gradually shift the public discussion of female circumcision from what it’s believed to bestow upon a girl toward what it takes away. “These mothers believe they are doing something good for their children,” Guarenti, a native of Italy, told me. “For our culture that is not easily understandable. To judge them harshly is to isolate them. You cannot make change that way.”
The photographs that go with this article are giving me the creeps. Posted by caringforwomen (Member # 14617) on :
FGM makes me flinch everytime I think about it. If I had to have that done, I would want to be put to sleep. I could not stand the pain. Thinking of a sharp knife down there is just too much.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
Hanan 16, has an Egpytian high school diploma
How aware are you of why this has happened to you and what the consequences are? ~ It's for a girl's reputation. Everyone does that in our area.
Are you aware of the consequences? ~ All I know is tha tit prevents girls from being bad.
Is that what your parents told you? ~ It's common knowledge, just like not wearing tight or revealing clothes. You don't really question it.
So you're not at all upset about your situation? ~ No, why should I be? I'm not the only one this is happening to.
Do you remember the day of your circumcision? ~ Yes of course.
Does this then not upset you? ~ No, it's just like any other operation.
Do you and your parents have a close relationship? Do you discuss sexual issues together? ~ No, we don't talk about such things.
Would you not have followed your parents' advice if they had talked to you and told you what you should and shouldn't do? Do you really believe that you needed to be circumcised to be the good girl that you are? ~ Of course I would have taken my parents' advice, but circumcision ensures a girl's reputation. It is one of the best things that can happen to a girl. It's celebrated and the parents look forward to it. We only appreciate it when we're older and realize how much it has helped us.
Fawzeya 51, housemaid
You have four daughters -- are they all circumcised? ~ Yes of course. It's a shame amongst people like us not to circumcise our girls.
Have any of your daughters complained in regards to the circumcision? ~ Everyone complains, but everyone has to go through it, whether they like it or not. My eldest daughters complain about their husbands cheating on them, my younger ones see the singers on television and want to look like them -- everyone has these stupid problems.
You call them stupid, but they're actually very serious. Don't you want your daughters to be happy? ~ Of course I do, and that's why I'm doing what I'm doing. It's easy for someone like you to criticize the way wer're living, because you don't live in it yourself. A girl's life is determined by her reputation; I want to see my daughters married with kids. It's what every mother wants. This is happiness to people like us. This is why I agreed to do this interview with you -- to reach people like you and explain to them why we're doing this. It's for our daughters' own good.
Do you think your daughters are happy knowing that their husbands cheat on them for reasons that could have been avoided? ~ They're happier than they would have been had they not gotten married at all. It's the smart woman that knows how to keep her husband.
How aware are you of the consequences of circumcision? ~ I'm a 51 year old woman; I've seen it all. I've lived and I've survived it. Today's girls are spoiled and most of them don't have an ounce of decency. They're in need of being circumcised more than we did.
Have you heard that this practice has been outlawed? ~ Yes, but this isn't going to stop people from doing it. It's like the government outlawing the veil: if they did, women would still do it because it's the right thing to do.
What about the girls that died during the operation? It was all over the newspapers and this gave it more bad press than it's already getting. ~ Those are two cases out of thousands. They could have died while doing any other operation, not just circumcision. It's kadaa we kadar (fate). No one escapes their fate.
Community Times, issue 121, Oct. 2007
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
up. Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
fecking barbaric animals! thats all I can say. ANIMALS Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
SMASHING THE SILENCE AROUND FGM
Tuesday, February 9th, 2010
NEW YORK – Imagine if 3 million boys had their penises cut off every year.
Imagine that despite accounts of the unfathomable pain boys endure to ensure chastity and passage into manhood, religious leaders for decades taught their communities that God had decreed such mutilation.
A world tongue-tied by cultural relativism says nothing
Sounds absurd, doesn’t it?
It’s a painful reality for at least 3 million girls who each year have parts or all of their clitorises cut off in a procedure known as female genital mutilation (FGM). The clitoris has double the nerve endings of a penis so my analogy to chopping off little boys’ organs isn’t too far off.
This past weekend marked International Day of Zero Tolerance of FGM so allow me to shake you out of oblivion by reminding you that 6,000 girls a day are subjected to one of four types of FGM.
The most “minor” – known as clitoridectomy – is the partial or total removal of the clitoris. The most severe – known as infibulation – is the removal of parts of the external genitalia followed by stitching together of what remains. The girl subjected to this then has her legs bound for about two weeks to create a seal over her genitals.
Have I been graphic enough?
FGM is not an abstract issue I’ve collected under the umbrella of my feminism. Along with an aunt who is four years older than me, I belong to the first generation of women in my extended family not to have been subjected to it.
I began to share that sad family history because I could no longer stand to hear misguided cultural relativists gloss over the horrors of FGM with the same brush of labioplasty, a form of cosmetic plastic surgery for the genitals that has become popular in the U.S. and Europe.
It is unconscionable to compare a woman’s choice to subject herself to surgery to the enforced cutting of girls from infancy to about the age of 15 in at least 28 countries. Prevalent mostly in Africa, the Middle East and parts of Asia, FGM is no longer a traditional practice that harms girls just “over there”. As a result of immigration and refugee movements, FGM is now being practiced in the U.S. Canada, Europe, Australia and New Zealand.
According to the Foundation for Women’s Health, Research and Development as many as 6,500 girls are at risk of FGM within the UK every year, where some 66,000 women have been cut, most before leaving their country of origin.
Some of those at-risk girls are cut in their parent’s country of origin during vacations. Women’s rights groups warn that some communities fly “cutters” to the UK to carry out the mutilation at “parties” involving up to 20 girls to save money.
Parents in those communities – like my grandparents – don’t hate their daughters. They are socialized to believe the cutting guarantees their girls acceptance and protection by their communities. I’ve never forgotten the 17-year old uncut bride I wrote about in Cairo years ago who on her wedding night was sent home to her mother with a message from the groom: if you want your daughter to be married, you know what you need to do. A traditional midwife was called in and the bride was cut.
I’m tired of hearing “but it’s the mothers who do it to their daughters” with no thought as to why and as if men were innocent benefactors of a mother’s cruelty. At its heart, FGM is the starkest embodiment of the disempowerment of girls and women.
As recent as the 1950s, partial or total removal of the clitoris was prescribed in western Europe and the U.S. in response to hysteria, epilepsy, mental disorders, masturbation, nymphomania, melancholia and lesbianism.
My opening analogy of penis chopping was absurd not just because if boys were being mutilated the world would not be so silent but because, really, who would want to control male sexuality? We invent little blue pills to boost it.
What to do?
Legislation is a start but it’s useless unless combined with unblinking education about the harm of FGM – lasting psychological trauma, extreme pain, chronic infections, bleeding, abscesses, tumors, urinary tract infections, infertility and decreased sexual desire – and more forceful denunciations from religious leaders.
The UK outlawed FGM in 1985 and in 2003, it became illegal to take a girl overseas for cutting. Yet in a country where up to 500 girls a day are at risk, the police have failed to secure a single conviction.
My country of birth Egypt finally passed a total ban on FGM in 2008. Islamists from the Muslim Brotherhood and independent parliamentarians objected, arguing that the practice was part of Islamic law because it protected a woman’s chastity.
That was despite an edict in 2007 from Egypt’s Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa saying FGM was religiously prohibited. The grand sheikh of Cairo’s al-Azhar, bastion of Sunni Muslim learning, and Egypt’s Coptic Christian pope have said neither the Koran nor the Bible demand or even mention cutting.
But why the long silence in a country where 96 percent of women – Muslim and Christian – have been cut? It explains why among Egyptian girls aged 10 – 19 prevalence is still as high as 84 percent.
Confused? Put yourself in the shoes of mothers trying to ensure their daughters don’t become outcasts. Put yourself in the shoes of my aunt who almost bled to death at the age of 7, no doubt wondering why the person who was supposed to love and protect her the most had subjected her to that most awful of pain.
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That's really sad.
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she may that operation! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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If you can't get a straight answer out of them about this, then I totally agree with you, keep your daughter under your eye at all times.
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are you breandead dalia