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Due to the misunderstanding of our Muslims friends of Christianity doctrine about the holy God and their thinking that we are worshipping three Gods not one as they do and what so called mystery TRINITY.
I thought if this simplification presents the truth on our view point about the properties of the God.
The Holy Trinity in Christianity
The doctrine of the holy Trinity in no way means the existence of three gods as some people wrongly imagine. The meaning of this doctrine is – God is one …
Existing in Himself, so He declared Himself as the Father,
Speaking the word, so He declared Himself as the Son Jesus,
the Word Alive in his spirit, so He declared Himself as the Holy Spirit.
The Christian creed was taken from the Bible. “truly we believe in one God … Creator of heavens and earth, and the visible and invisible.
” Hence, my dear friend, you perceive that we Christians believe in one God and not three gods. We shall clarify the meaning or Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in discussions about the holy Trinity of Christianity.
It should not be understood from these names that there is a bodily relationship as in human term, but rather it has a spiritual meaning.
The Necessity of the Trinity in the Unity
In summary, the necessity of the Trinity in the unity is clear from the above references and discussion.
(1) The one God, creator of all living things, must have a personal existence Himself.
(2) The one God, who created man with ability to speak, must Himself also speak the word.
(3) The one God, who created life in every living being, must Himself be alive in the spirit.
Therefore, it is certain that a holy Trinity should be in the only God as we have already clarified. This is our true belief: God is one in the Trinity and not three gods.
The Kuranic Testimony of the Christian Holy Trinity
Perhaps you are amazed, my dear friend, that the Kurān mentions the Trinity of the one God exactly as Christians believe in it.
We have already seen that the Trinity of Christianity is the nature of God, His Word, and His Spirit.
This is the same Trinity the Kurān mentioned, “But Jesus Christ, son of Mary is the messenger of God and His Word and Spirit of Him that He gave to Mary” (Sūrat Al Nisā`, The Women: 171). In this verse it is clear the God has
1- A personality – “messenger of God” 2- A word – “and His Word” 3- A spirit – “and a Spirit from him.”
The names of the Holy Trinity
We learned from the previous discussion that Christianity believes in one God, who is in a trinity: God’s person, His Word, and his Spirit.
This Trinity has other names: The Father (God’s person), The Son (Word of God), and the Holy Spirit (Spirit of God).
Some ignorant people make objections to this naming for they think that it means procreation and sexual relationship. God forbid Christianity from this understanding! Therefore, we shall clarify the intention of this naming.
The Father To Christians the meaning of the word Father does not mean as actual physical father.
It has a metaphorical meaning. God is the source and the creator of all creatures. So He is called the Father of all creatures,
This testimony of the Kurān for the creed of the Trinity is what we Christians proclaimed no more. It does not proclaim polytheism, but rather it proclaims that there is no God but Him.
The Son When we say Christ is the Son of God, this does not mean that Christ came by means of intermarriage. Son is not intended to mean a physical relationship or birth by procreation.
We only say Christ is the Son of God to mean that Christ came from God. He related to no physical father so He is related to God. The word on as used in common language, in the Kurān, and in prophetic conversation does not indicate physical realationship.
Son in Common Language:
In many linguistic expressions, the word son is not used to indicate physical generation.
For example, we say that students are sons of knowledge; citizens are sons of the homeland; an Egyptian is a son of the Nile; and an Arab is a son of the desert.
The Holy Spirit
As previously discussed, the Holy Spirit is God’s Spirit and is mentioned in the Kurān in many places.
(1) Sūrat Yūsuf, Joseph: 87 – “Do not despair of Allah’s spirit; none but unbelievers despair of Allah’s Spirit.”
(2) Sūrat Al Bakara, The Cow: 87 and 253 – “We gave Jesus the son of Mary veritable signs and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit.”
(3) Al Imām al Nasafi said, “By the Holy Spirit is meant the sanctified Spirit … or the name of God the greatest.” (Al Nasafi, Commentary “Tafsir” part I, p. 56.)
(4) Sūrat Al Mā`ida, the Banquet: 110 – “Jesus, son of Mary remember the favor I have bestowed on you and on your mother; how I have strengthened you with the Holy Spirit.”
Shaikh Muhammad al Hariri al Bayyūmi said, “The Holy Spirit is the spirit of God and the Spirit of God is not created.”
(Al Shaikh Muhammad al Hariri al Bayyūmi, “Al Rūh wa Māhiyyatuha” The Spirit and Its Nature p.53.)
This is the holy Trinity in one God in whom we believe, and this is the reason of naming it as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
• The Father is the title of essential Fatherhood of God. • The Son is the title of the incarnated Word of God. • The Holy Spirit is the title of the Spirit of God Himself.
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The Bible Denies the Divinity of Jesus this article contains the following seven arguments which prove that the Bible denies the divinity of Jesus:
1) None of the Bible’s Writers Believed That Jesus is God
2) Evidence From the Acts of the Apostles
3) Jesus is Not All-Powerful, and Not All-Knowing
4) The Greatest Commandment in the Bible and the Quran
5) Paul Believed That Jesus is not God
6) Evidence from the Gospel of John
7) God and Jesus Are Two Separate Beings
1) None of the Bible’s Writers Believed That Jesus is God: Christians and Muslims both believe in Jesus, love him, and honor him. They are, however, divided over the question of his divinity.
Fortunately, this difference can be resolved if we refer the question to both the Bible and the Quran, because, both the Bible and the Quran teach that Jesus is not God.
It is clear enough to everyone that the Quran denies the divinity of Jesus, so we do not need to spend much time explaining that.
On the other hand, many people misunderstand the Bible; they feel that the belief in Jesus as God is so widespread that it must have come from the Bible. This article shows quite conclusively that the Bible does not teach that.
The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is not God. In the Bible God is always someone else other than Jesus.
Some will say that something Jesus said or something he did while on the earth proves that he is God. We will show that the disciples never came to the conclusion that Jesus is God. And those are people who lived and walked with Jesus and thus knew first hand what he said and did. Furthermore, we are told in the Acts of the Apostles in the Bible that the disciples were being guided by the Holy Spirit. If Jesus is God, surely they should know it. But they did not. They kept worshipping the one true God who was worshipped by Abraham, Moses, and Jesus (see Acts 3:13).
All of the writers of the Bible believed that God was not Jesus. The idea that Jesus is God did not become part of Christian belief until after the Bible was written, and took many centuries to become part of the faith of Christians.
Matthew, Mark, and Luke, authors of the first three Gospels, believed that Jesus was not God (see Mark 10:18 and Matthew 19:17). They believed that he was the son of God in the sense of a righteous person. Many others too, are similarly called sons of God (see Matthew 23:1-9).
Paul, believed to be the author of some thirteen or fourteen letters in the Bible, also believed that Jesus is not God. For Paul, God first created Jesus, then used Jesus as the agent by which to create the rest of creation (see Colossians 1:15 and 1 Corinthians 8:6). Similar ideas are found in the letter to the Hebrews, and also in the Gospel and Letters of John composed some seventy years after Jesus. In all of these writings, however, Jesus is still a creature of God and is therefore forever subservient to God (see 1 Corinthians 15:28).
Now, because Paul, John, and the author of Hebrews believed that Jesus was God’s first creature, some of what they wrote clearly show that Jesus was a pre-existent powerful being. This is often misunderstood to mean that he must have been God. But to say that Jesus was God is to go against what these very authors wrote. Although these authors had this later belief that Jesus is greater than all creatures, they also believed that he was still lesser than God. In fact, John quotes Jesus as saying: “...the Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28). And Paul declares that the head of every woman is her husband, the head of every man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God (see 1 Corinthians 11:3).
Therefore, to find something in these writings and claim that these teach that Jesus is God is to misuse and misquote what those authors are saying. What they wrote must be understood in the context of their belief that Jesus is a creature of God as they have already clearly said.
So we see then, that some of the later writers had a higher view of Jesus, but none of the writers of the Bible believed that Jesus is God. The Bible clearly teaches that there is only one true God, the one whom Jesus worshipped (see John 17: 3).
In the rest of this article we will explore the Bible in more depth, and deal with the passages which are most often misquoted as proofs of Jesus’ divinity. We will show, with God’s help, that these do not mean what they are so often used to prove.
2) Evidence From the Acts of the Apostles: Jesus performed many miraculous wonders, and he without doubt said a lot of wonderful things about himself. Some people use what he said and did as a proof that he was God. But his original disciples who lived and walked with him, and were eyewitnesses to what he said and did, never reached this conclusion.
The Acts of the Apostles in the Bible details the activity of the disciples over a period of thirty years after Jesus was lifted up to heaven. Throughout this period they never refer to Jesus as God. They continually and consistently use the title God to refer to someone else other than Jesus.
Peter stood up with the eleven disciples and addressed the crowd saying: “Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.” (Acts 2:22).
It was God, therefore, who did the miracles through Jesus to convince people that Jesus was backed by God. Peter did not see the miracles as proof that Jesus is God.
In fact, the way Peter refers to God and to Jesus makes it clear that Jesus is not God. For he always turns the title God away from Jesus. Take the following references for example:
“God has raised this Jesus...” (Acts 2:32)
“God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” (Acts 2:36)
In both passages, the title God is turned away from Jesus. So why he did this, if Jesus was God?
For Peter, Jesus was a servant of God. Peter said: “God raised up his servant...” (Acts 3:26). The title servant refers to Jesus. This is clear from a previous passage where Peter declared: “The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.” (Acts 3:13).
Peter must have known that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob never spoke of a Triune God. They always spoke of God as the only God. Here, as in Matthew 12:18, Jesus is the servant of God. Matthew tells us that Jesus was the same servant of God spoken of in Isaiah 42:1. So, according to Matthew and Peter, Jesus is not God, but God’s servant. The Old Testament repeatedly says that God is alone (e.g. Isaiah 45:5).
All of the disciples of Jesus held this view. In Acts 4:24 we are told that the believers prayed to God saying: “...they raised their voices together in prayer to God. ‘Sovereign Lord,’ they said, ‘you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.’” It is clear that the one they were praying to was not Jesus, because, two verses later, they referred to Jesus as “...your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.” (Acts 4:27).
If Jesus was God, his disciples should have said this clearly. Instead, they kept preaching that Jesus was God’s Christ. We are told in Acts: “Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Christ.” (Acts 5:42).
The Greek word “Christ” is a human title. It means “Anointed.” If Jesus was God, why would the disciples continually refer to him with human titles like servant and Christ of God, and consistently use the title God for the one who raised Jesus? Did they fear men? No! They boldly preached the truth fearing neither imprisonment nor death. When they faced opposition from the authorities, Peter declared: “We must obey God rather than men! The God of our fathers raised Jesus...” (Acts 5:29-30).
Were they lacking the Holy Spirit? No! They were supported by the Holy Spirit (see Acts 2:3, 4:8, and 5:32). They were simply teaching what they had learnt from Jesus — that Jesus was not God but, rather, God’s servant and Christ.
The Quran confirms that Jesus was the Messiah (Christ), and that he was God’s servant (see the Holy Quran 3:45 and 19:30).
3) Jesus is Not All-Powerful, and Not All-Knowing: Christians and Muslims agree that God is all-powerful and all-knowing. The Gospels show that Jesus was not all-powerful, and not all-knowing, since he had some limitations.
Mark tells us in his gospel that Jesus was unable to do any powerful work in his hometown except few things: “He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them.” (Mark 6:5). Mark also tells us that when Jesus tried to heal a certain blind man, the man was not healed after the first attempt, and Jesus had to try a second time (see Mark 8:22-26).
Therefore, although we hold a great love and respect for Jesus, we need to understand that he is not the all-powerful God.
Mark’s Gospel also reveals that Jesus had limitations in his knowledge. In Mark 13:32, Jesus declared that he himself does not know when the last day will occur, but the Father alone knows that (see also Matthew 24:36).
Therefore, Jesus could not have been the all-knowing God. Some will say that Jesus knew when the last day will occur, but he chose not to tell. But that complicates matters further. Jesus could have said that he knows but he does not wish to tell. Instead, he said that he does not know. We must believe him. Jesus does not lie at all.
The Gospel of Luke also reveals that Jesus had limited knowledge. Luke says that Jesus increased in wisdom (Luke 2:52). In Hebrews too (Hebrews 5:8) we read that Jesus learned obedience. But God’s knowledge and wisdom is always perfect, and God does not learn new things. He knows everything always. So, if Jesus learned something new, that proves that he did not know everything before that, and thus he was not God.
Another example for the limited knowledge of Jesus is the fig tree episode in the Gospels. Mark tells us as follows: “The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs.” (Mark 11:12-13).
It is clear from these verses that the knowledge of Jesus was limited on two counts. First, he did not know that the tree had no fruit until he came to it. Second, he did not know that it was not the right season to expect figs on trees.
Can he become God later? No! Because there is only one God, and He is God from everlasting to everlasting (see Psalms 90:2).
Someone may say that Jesus was God but he took the form of a servant and therefore became limited. Well, that would mean that God changed. But God does not change. God said so according to Malachi 3:6.
Jesus never was God, and never will be. In the Bible, God declares: “Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.” (Isaiah 43:10).
The Bible clearly shows that Jesus was not all-powerful and all-knowing as the true God should be.
4) The Greatest Commandment in the Bible and the Quran: Some will say that this whole discussion over the divinity of Jesus is unnecessary. They say, the important thing is to accept Jesus as your personal savior. On the contrary, the Bible’s writers stressed that, in order to be saved, it is necessary to understand who exactly is God. Failure to understand this would be to violate the first and greatest of all the commandments in the Bible. This commandment was emphasized by Jesus, on whom be peace, when a teacher of the Law of Moses asked him: “‘Of all the commandments, which is the most important?’ ‘The most important one,’ answered Jesus, ‘is this: Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’” (Mark 12:28-30).
Notice that Jesus was quoting the first commandment from the book of Deuteronomy 6:4-5. Jesus confirmed not only that this commandment is still valid, but also that it is the most important of all the commandments. If Jesus thought that he himself is God, why did not he say so? Instead, he stressed that God is one. The man who questioned Jesus understood this, and what the man says next makes it clear that God is not Jesus, for he said to Jesus: “‘Well said, teacher,’ the man replied. ‘You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.’” (Mark 12:32).
Now if Jesus was God, he would have told the man so. Instead, he let the man refer to God as someone other than Jesus, and he even saw that the man had spoken wisely: “When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, ‘You are not far from the kingdom of God.’” (Mark 12:34). If Jesus knew that God is a trinity, why did not he say so? Why did not he say that God is one in three, or three in one? Instead, he declared that God is one. True imitators of Jesus will imitate him also in this declaration of God’s oneness. They will not add the word three where Jesus never said it.
Does salvation depend on this commandment? Yes, says the Bible! Jesus made this clear when another man approached Jesus to learn from him (see Mark 10:17-29). The man fell on his knees and said to Jesus: “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Jesus replied: “Why do you call me good? No one is good — except God alone.” (Mark 10:17-18).
By so saying, Jesus made a clear distinction between himself and God. Then he proceeded with the answer to the man’s question about how to get salvation. Jesus told him: “If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” (Matthew 19:17, also see Mark 10:19).
Remember that the most important of all the commandments, according to Jesus, is to know God as the only God. Jesus further emphasized this in the Gospel According to John. In John 17:1, Jesus lifted his eyes to heaven and prayed, addressing God as Father. Then in verse three, he said to God as follows: “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” (John 17:3).
This proves beyond doubt that if people want to get eternal life they must know that the One, whom Jesus was praying to, is the only true God, and they must know that Jesus was sent by the true God. Some say that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. But Jesus said that the Father alone is the only true God. True followers of Jesus will follow him in this too. Jesus had said that his true followers are those who hold to his teachings. He said: “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.” (John 8:31). His teaching is that people must continue to keep the commandments, especially the first commandment which emphasizes that God is alone, and that God should be loved with all our hearts and all our strengths.
We love Jesus, but we must not love him as God. Today many love Jesus more than they love God. This is because they see God as a vengeful person who wanted to exact a penalty from them, and they see Jesus as the savior who rescued them from the wrath of God. Yet God is our only savior. According to Isaiah 43:11, God said: “I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.” Also God said according to Isaiah 45:21-22: “Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”
The Quran confirms the first commandment and addresses it to all humankind (see the Holy Quran 2:163). And God declares that true believers love Him more than anyone else or anything else (Quran 2:165).
5) Paul Believed That Jesus is not God: Many people use Paul’s writings as proof that Jesus is God. But this is not fair to Paul, because Paul clearly believed that Jesus is not God. In his first letter to Timothy, Paul wrote: “I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions...” (1 Timothy 5:21).
It is clear from this that the title God applies not to Christ Jesus, but to someone else. In the following chapter, he again differentiates between God and Jesus when he says: “In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession...” (1 Timothy 6:13).
Paul then went on to speak of the second appearance of Jesus: “the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which God will bring about in his own time.” (1 Timothy 6:14-15).
Again, the title God is deliberately turned away from Jesus. Incidentally, many people think that when Jesus is called “Lord” in the Bible that this means “God.” But in the Bible this title means master or teacher, and it can be used for addressing humans (see 1 Peter 3:6).
What is more important, however, is to notice what Paul said about God in the following passage, which clearly shows that Jesus is not God: “God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever.” (1 Timothy 6:15-16).
Paul said that God alone is immortal. Immortal means he does not die. Check any dictionary. Now, anyone who believes that Jesus died cannot believe that Jesus is God. Such a belief would contradict what Paul said here. Furthermore, to say that God died is a blasphemy against God. Who would run the world if God died? Paul believed that God does not die.
Paul also said in that passage that God dwells in unapproachable light — that no one has seen God or can see him. Paul knew that many thousands of people had seen Jesus. Yet Paul said that no one has seen God, because Paul was sure that Jesus is not God. This is why Paul went on teaching that Jesus was not God, but that he was the Christ (see Acts 9:22 and 18:5).
When he was in Athens, Paul spoke of God as “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.” (Acts 17:24). Then he identified Jesus as “the man he (i.e. God) has appointed.” (Acts 17:31).
Clearly, for Paul, Jesus was not God, and he would be shocked to see his writings used for proving the opposite of what he believed. Paul even testified in court saying: “I admit that I worship the God of our fathers...” (Acts 24:14).
He also said that Jesus is the servant of that God, for we read in Acts: “The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.” (Acts 3:13).
For Paul, the Father alone is God. Paul said that there is “one God and Father of all...” (Ephesians 4:6). Paul said again: “...for us there is but one God, the Father . . . and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ...” (1 Corinthians 8:6).
Paul’s letter to the Philippians (Philippians 2:6-11) is often quoted as a proof that Jesus is God. But the very passage shows that Jesus is not God. This passage has to agree with Isaiah 45:22-24 where God said that every knee should bow to God, and every tongue should confess that righteousness and strength are in God alone. Paul was aware of this passage, for he quoted it in Romans 14:11. Knowing this, Paul declared: “I kneel before the Father.” (Ephesians 3:14).
The letter to the Hebrews (Hebrews 1:6) says that the angels of God should worship the Son. But this passage depends on Deuteronomy 32:43, in the Septuagint version of the Old Testament. This phrase cannot be found in the Old Testament used by Christians today, and the Septuagint version is no longer considered valid by Christians. However, even the Septuagint version, does not say worship the Son. It says let the Angels of God worship God. The Bible insists that God alone is to be worshipped: “When the LORD made a covenant with the Israelites, he commanded them: ‘Do not worship any other gods or bow down to them, serve them or sacrifice to them. But the LORD, who brought you up out of Egypt with mighty power and outstretched arm, is the one you must worship. To him you shall bow down and to him offer sacrifices. You must always be careful to keep the decrees and ordinances, the laws and commands he wrote for you. Do not worship other gods. Do not forget the covenant I have made with you, and do not worship other gods. Rather, worship the LORD your God; it is he who will deliver you from the hand of all your enemies.’” (2 Kings 17:35-39).
Jesus, on whom be peace, believed in this, for he also stressed it in Luke 4:8. And Jesus too fell on his face and worshipped God (see Matthew 26:39). Paul knew that Jesus worshipped God (see Hebrews 5:7). Paul taught that Jesus will remain forever subservient to God (see 1 Corinthians 15:28).
6) Evidence from the Gospel of John: The Gospel of John, the fourth Gospel, was completed to its present form some seventy years after Jesus was raised up to heaven. This Gospel in its final form says one more thing about Jesus that was unknown from the previous three Gospels — that Jesus was the Word of God. John means that Jesus was God’s agent through whom God created everything else. This is often misunderstood to mean that Jesus was God Himself. But John was saying, as Paul had already said, that Jesus was God’s first creature. In the Book of Revelation in the Bible, we find that Jesus is: “the beginning of God’s creation” (Revelation 3:14, also see 1 Corinthians 8:6 and Colossians 1:15).
Anyone who says that the Word of God is a person distinct from God must also admit that the Word was created, for the Word speaks in the Bible saying: “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works...” (Proverbs 8:22).
This Gospel, nevertheless, clearly teaches that Jesus is not God. If it did not continue this teaching, then it would contradict the other three Gospels and also the letters of Paul from which it is clearly established that Jesus is not God. We find here that Jesus was not co-equal with the Father, for Jesus said: “...the Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28).
People forget this and they say that Jesus is equal to the Father. Whom should we believe — Jesus or the people? Muslims and Christians agree that God is self-existent. This means that He does not derive his existence from anyone. Yet John tells us that Jesus’ existence is caused by the Father. Jesus said in this Gospel: “...I live because of the Father...” (John 6:57).
John tells us that Jesus cannot do anything by his own when he quotes Jesus as saying: “By myself I can do nothing...” (John 5:30). This agrees with what we learn about Jesus from other Gospels. In Mark, for example, we learn that Jesus performed miracles by a power which was not within his control. This is especially clear from an episode in which a woman is healed of her incurable bleeding. The woman came up behind him and touched his cloak, and she was immediately healed. But Jesus had no idea who touched him. Mark describes Jesus’ actions thus: “At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, ‘Who touched my clothes?’” (Mark 5:30). His disciples could not provide a satisfactory answer, so Mark tells us: “Jesus kept looking around to see who had done it.” (Mark 5:32). This shows that the power that healed the woman was not within Jesus’ control. He knew that the power had gone out of him, but he did not know where it went. Some other intelligent being had to guide that power to the woman who needed to be healed. God was that intelligent being.
It is no wonder, then, that in Acts of the Apostles we read that it was God who did the miracles through Jesus (Acts 2:22).
God did extraordinary miracles through others too, but that does not make the others God (see Acts 19:11). Why, then, is Jesus taken for God? Even when Jesus raised his friend Lazarus from the dead, he had to ask God to do it. Lazarus’ sister, Martha, knew this, for she said to Jesus: “I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.” (John 11:22).
Martha knew that Jesus was not God, and John who reported this with approval knew it also. Jesus had a God, for when he was about to ascend to heaven, he said: “I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.” (John 20:17).
John was sure that no one had seen God, although he knew that many people had seen Jesus (see John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12). In fact Jesus himself told the crowds, that they have never seen the Father, nor have they heard the Father’s voice (John 5:37). Notice that if Jesus was the Father, his statement here would be false. Who is the only God in John’s Gospel? The Father alone.
Jesus testified this when he declared that the God of the Jews is the Father (John 8:54). Jesus too confirmed that the Father alone is the only true God (see John 17:1-3). And Jesus said to his enemies: “...you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.” (John 8:40). According to John, therefore, Jesus was not God, and nothing John wrote should be taken as proof that he was God — unless one wishes to disagree with John.
7) God and Jesus Are Two Separate Beings: Many people use certain verses of the Bible as proof that Jesus is God. However, all of these verses, when understood in context, prove the opposite!
For example, in Matthew 9:2, Jesus said to a certain man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.” Because of this, some say that Jesus must be God since only God can forgive sins. However, if you are willing to read just a few verses further, you will find that the people “...praised God, who had given such authority to men.” (Matthew 9:8). This shows that the people knew, and Matthew agrees, that Jesus is not the only man to receive such authority from God.
Jesus himself emphasized that he does not speak on his own authority (John 14:10) and he does nothing on his own authority, but he speaks only what the Father has taught him (John 8:28). What Jesus did here was as follows. Jesus announced to the man the knowledge Jesus received from God that God had forgiven the man.
Notice that Jesus did not say, “I forgive your sins,” but rather, “your sins are forgiven,” implying, as this would to his Jewish listeners, that God had forgiven the man. Jesus, then, did not have the power to forgive sins, and in that very episode he called himself “the Son of Man” (Matthew 9:6).
John 10:30 is often used as proof that Jesus is God because Jesus said, “I and the father are one.” But, if you read the next six verses, you will find Jesus explaining that his enemies were wrong to think that he was claiming to be God. What Jesus obviously means here is that he is one with the Father in purpose. Jesus also prayed that his disciples should be one just as Jesus and the Father are one. Obviously, he was not praying that all his disciples should somehow merge into one individual (see John 17:11 and 22). And when Luke reports that the disciples were all one, Luke does not mean that they became one single human being, but that they shared a common purpose although they were separate beings (see Acts 4:32). In terms of essence, Jesus and the Father are two, for Jesus said they are two witnesses (John 8:14-18). They have to be two, since one is greater than the other (see John 14:28). When Jesus prayed to be saved from the cross, he said: “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” (Luke 22:42).
This shows that they had two separate wills, although Jesus submitted his will to the will of the Father. Two wills mean two separate individuals.
Furthermore, Jesus is reported to have said: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46). If one of them forsook the other, then they must be two separate entities.
Again, Jesus is reported to have said: “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” (Luke 23:46). If the spirit of one can be placed into the hands of another, they must be two separate beings.
In all of these instances, Jesus is clearly subordinate to the Father. When Jesus knelt down and prayed he obviously was not praying to himself (see Luke 22:41). He was praying to his God.
Throughout the New Testament, the Father alone is called God. In fact, the titles “Father” and “God” are used to designate one individual, not three, and never Jesus. This is also clear from the fact that Matthew substituted the title “Father” in the place of the title “God” in at least two places in his Gospel (compare Matthew 10:29 with Luke 12:6, and Matthew 12:50 with Mark 3:35). If Matthew is right in doing so, then the Father alone is God.
Was Jesus the Father? No! Because Jesus said: “And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.” (Matthew 23:9). So Jesus is not the Father, since Jesus was standing on the earth when he said this.
The Quran seeks to bring people back to the true faith that was taught by Jesus, and by his true disciples who continued in his teaching. That teaching emphasized a continued commitment to the first commandment that God is alone. In the Quran, God directs Muslims to call readers of the Bible back to that true faith. God have said in the Quran:
Say: “O people of the Book (Christians and Jews)! Come to a word that is just between us and you: that we shall worship none but God, and that we shall associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords beside God.” (Quran, 3:64)
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Thanks Sultan for your concern to read my topic and thanks for your reply,but what I mentioned is the logically thinking about God in christianity and I think if someone said:
God is exist(the father of everything) God speaks by his word(as jesus was his visible word) God is alive not dead(has a holy living spirit in which we had taken to be alive by now)
I think there is no problem in that,but Just the titles are different which:
•The Father is the title of essential Fatherhood of God. • The Son is the title of the incarnated Word of God. • The Holy Spirit is the title of the Spirit of God Himself.
I am afraid that God without these entities he will be just and idea and we will turning to worshipping just name,not exist,can't speak and can't be a live.
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-------------------- Always remembering that we are nothing without His Merciful hand over us. Posts: 284 | From: gods heaven | Registered: Aug 2006
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Servant you have given a great perfect simple clarification about who is God in Christianity? and we hope that your point to be understood by Muslims.
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-------------------- Always remembering that we are nothing without His Merciful hand over us. Posts: 284 | From: gods heaven | Registered: Aug 2006
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"Suppose you have 100 sheep and when night comes one is missing. What do you do?
You leave the 99 sheep all safe together and then climb the hills, looking, searching until you find the lost sheep. Then you pick him up, put him on your shoulders, bring him down the hill to the camp, and ask your fellow shepherds to rejoice with you."
"Your heavenly Father is like that," Jesus said. "When you have lost your way, he will rescue you and save you and never give up on you until he finds you -- and you find him."
Thomas asked Jesus "we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?" Jesus told him:
"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father also. From this point on you know him; you have seen him."
"Lord," Philip said to him, "show us the Father and that will be enough for us." "Philip,Jesus replied, "after I have been with you all this time, you still do no know me?" Amen
Posts: 222 | From: Heaven | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
Let us just pray that men laho azanon fal yasma3 we man laho 3youn fal yabsor before its too late….
-------------------- Always remembering that we are nothing without His Merciful hand over us. Posts: 284 | From: gods heaven | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Coz HE knocks only at the door but it is up to us to open it… should we ignore the knock ….. we lose, because HE only comes when he is invited…..
-------------------- Always remembering that we are nothing without His Merciful hand over us. Posts: 284 | From: gods heaven | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
how long does it take for the icon picture to change i changed mine but it still the same
-------------------- Always remembering that we are nothing without His Merciful hand over us. Posts: 284 | From: gods heaven | Registered: Aug 2006
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-------------------- Always remembering that we are nothing without His Merciful hand over us. Posts: 284 | From: gods heaven | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Batman , The sword of Oness of God: [The Necessity of the Trinity in the Unity]
GoD IS ONE . TRINITY IS NOT NECESSARY.
This is true for your religion, Batman. It isn't true for most Christians. Many of us believe in God and the Holy trinity. It is part of our religion and an essential part of our beliefs.
Posts: 820 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Batman , The sword of Oness of God: [The Necessity of the Trinity in the Unity]
GoD IS ONE . TRINITY IS NOT NECESSARY.
This is true for your religion, Batman. It isn't true for most Christians. Many of us believe in God and the Holy trinity. It is part of our religion and an essential part of our beliefs.
THIS IS THE CORNER STONE ON THE DIFFERNCE OF BELIEF OF MUSLIMS AND CHRISTIAN
IN Quran, trinity is Kufr unbelieving and polytheism
any way, it's ok for any one to sleep in the bed he wants but at least i did my job and told people about this what God dislike. Regards
Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Batman, I have read plenty of the stuff that you post. You are entitled to your beliefs. It doesn't change mine. As for telling me what God dislikes, please point me to the way to an actual Sheikh. I would certainly listen.
Posts: 820 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Batman , The sword of Oness of God:
quote:Originally posted by Just Call Me A Lackey:
quote:Originally posted by Batman , The sword of Oness of God: [The Necessity of the Trinity in the Unity]
GoD IS ONE . TRINITY IS NOT NECESSARY.
This is true for your religion, Batman. It isn't true for most Christians. Many of us believe in God and the Holy trinity. It is part of our religion and an essential part of our beliefs.
THIS IS THE CORNER STONE ON THE DIFFERNCE OF BELIEF OF MUSLIMS AND CHRISTIAN
IN Quran, trinity is Kufr unbelieving and polytheism
any way, it's ok for any one to sleep in the bed he wants but at least i did my job and told people about this what God dislike. Regards
Christianity is considered to be a monotheistic religion; not polytheistic. Cheers.
Posts: 820 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Just Call Me A Lackey: Batman, I have read plenty of the stuff that you post. You are entitled to your beliefs. It doesn't change mine. As for telling me what God dislikes, please point me to the way to an actual Sheikh. I would certainly listen.
OK! I will satisfy your Hunger to knwoingthe truth about GOd. That truth that people change and have wrong ways. that truth that is logical. that truth that leads to the blessing of Godand the way to the Paradise.
That truth that the old ancestor muslim who folowed the JEsus know, but it didnt reach you. That truth that the old ancestor of Muslim understand and muslim are still in their path as they can. that truth that will clear all the delusion.
posted
Hmm..thanks for the link. But, you still fail to see the workings of what Christianity is. It is your own shortcomings that does this. It is fine, though. Because in the end, the only one who can judge Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and any other religion or those who have none, is God. It is presumptuous to know what God wants in the end because the ultimate Truth is HIS alone. Cheers.
Posts: 820 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
KNow - may Allah show you his mercy- the religion is one religion since Adam. The religion of Jesus, ibrahem, Moses , Joseph is Submision of the God's Orders. it's called in arabic islam( means submisioN)
after corruption of the bible, u had wrong beiefs based on corrupted bible
YOur chain of narration of the bible has been broken. and your bible is full of non-original stuff.
Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Can any one on the earth give me the chain of narration from jesus to you??
In ISlam , we can tell you the chain of narration since prophet muhammed to you
Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Batman , The sword of Oness of God: KNow - may Allah show you his mercy- the religion is one religion since Adam. The religion of Jesus, ibrahem, Moses , Joseph is Submision of the God's Orders. it's called in arabic islam( means submisioN)
after corruption of the bible, u had wrong beiefs based on corrupted bible
YOur chain of narration of the bible has been broken. and your bible is full of non-original stuff.
You know its heresy to try to pretend to be God.Have you ever heard the saying 'Judge not, lest ye be judged.' We know all about submission... . cheers. Have a good night, Batman. Posts: 820 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Batman , The sword of Oness of God: KNow - may Allah show you his mercy- the religion is one religion since Adam. The religion of Jesus, ibrahem, Moses , Joseph is Submision of the God's Orders. it's called in arabic islam( means submisioN)
after corruption of the bible, u had wrong beiefs based on corrupted bible
YOur chain of narration of the bible has been broken. and your bible is full of non-original stuff.
You know its heresy to try to pretend to be God.Have you ever heard the saying 'Judge not, lest ye be judged.' We know all about submission... . cheers. Have a good night, Batman.
y on the earth u joke? i was serously talking any way ok
slaam
Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mr.Batman Yes God is one but let me give you small example about that,
If you found your son 5 years old playing with electricity what you will do? Certainly you will scream and shout at him to get away and you will tell him don't do it again isn't right?
But what if you told him" listen my son you are now close to 220 voltages and this can cause your heart to be shocked and stop working on pumping blood to your brain then you will die".
Can your son understand anything now? Of course no, so you have to talk with him as per his mind and going down to his level to let him understand you.
This was the situation of the human's minds thousand years before, their minds were in a childhood phase and God had to deal with them as per their limited minds.
Therefore when you going to talk with your son about who is God? You will tell him he is only one God created everything around us, and you will avoid speaking so much about the entity of the God because your child won't understand anything.
But when your child becomes mature enough18 years or so, you can start talking with him about God in more details and surely he will start to understand you.
So when you say God is one and stop silent after that, this if you are talking with children but as we are now adult enough to understand who is God in more depth.
We will say that your sentence isn't complete, and you have to read more to understand who is God?
So my friend which mind you want to have? The child's mind or the mature's mind.!!
Posts: 222 | From: Heaven | Registered: Jul 2006
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No wondering from that because unfortunately Muslims have closed their minds from so long time ago ,they still thinking that they are only the right one and the best nation for others as written in Quran.
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Dude, my virgin in ES paradise, I wonder how long its going to take you to both hyperlink in addition to cutting and pasting the entire "answering christianity" website?
Don't you have a valuable, accurate and respected source?
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by loveforever: No wondering from that because unfortunately Muslims have closed their minds from so long time ago ,they still thinking that they are only the right one and the best nation for others as written in Quran.
I am muslim But my mind is not closed
Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
The current christianity religion is based on the idea of Jesus' crucifixion for humans' sins which they inherit it from Adam. and in order for this sin to be forgiven , there have to be a sinless one to sacrifice and since no one is sinless , God had to sacrifice his only son (Jesus) for us to forgive us. and across the time, their Counciles decided to make Jesus God and the Holy Spirit God so God became three but in one.
this is the christian belief in brief. but we are not going to refute it here but we will discuss if there is any of these fictions in the bible.
as for the verses that they tried to misinterpret them to fit their claims cant be found except in one gospel and they could be interpret in many ways. but the verses that talks about the ONESS of God can be found and repeated in all the gospels. for example:
what is the most important matters in the religion ? such a question should be asked to every prophet, and people must ask about it. Matthew tells us that someone asked Jesus (PBUH) saying: " Master: which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" esus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Mark tell us the same story in his gospel:
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" 29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'There is no commandment greater than these."
so Jesus (PBUH) emphasize what was written in the old testament and he said he didnt came to abolish it but to fulfill it.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." matthew 5:17
the other exampel which repeated over and over clearly in the bible is when Jesus was questioned about the work that leads to the Heaven. Matthew tells us about it saying:
Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" 17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." 18"Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"
and Mark tell us the same story :
As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother."
Luke also tell us about the same story:
A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 19"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 20You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder , do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'"
such texts which have been repeated over and over can be trusted not those texts that have been reported only once and it can be interpret in many ways.
the third clear repeated example is describing Jesus as the Messenge of God which have been repeated in the bible 32 times, and these are some of the texts:
john 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
matthew 10:40 He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me.
mark 9:37 Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me."
luke 4:43 But he said, "I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns also, because that is why I was sent."
john 5:24 I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
john 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
john 5:36 I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me.
john 12:49-50 For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. 50I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."
is there anything left to be said about a doctrine (Trinity) that cant be even found in the bible after all of that, isnt it our duty to free our christian brothers from their priests and pastors who made a new christianity for them ?
man laho azonani lel sam3 fal yasma3 before its too late
Posts: 1201 | From: Egypt | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
" isnt it our duty to free our christian brothers from their priests and pastors who made a new christianity for them ? "
You are crossing the line here Mr. Egypt. This is violent not responsible.
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
So Mr.Egypt can you tell us why the Jewish crucified Jesus or the Guy that Islam claims God replaced Jesus by him?
Note that: When you read the Gospels carefully you will find that consistently
- Jesus talks like he is God, - Jesus acts like he is God, - Jesus gives evidence for claiming this authority rightfully by performing miraculous signs.
After 3 years with his disciples we read how one of them asked Jesus and wanted to be "shown the Father (God)".
Jesus answered, "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time?
Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. ... Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves." (John 14:10-11).
Posts: 222 | From: Heaven | Registered: Jul 2006
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Servant they will never get it.... I am so sad you have been talking and repeating yourself so many times and their eyes are still shut and ears still closed. I say we should only pray to god for them to understand.
-------------------- Always remembering that we are nothing without His Merciful hand over us. Posts: 284 | From: gods heaven | Registered: Aug 2006
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- Jesus talks like he is God, - Jesus acts like he is God, - Jesus gives evidence for claiming this authority rightfully by performing miraculous signs.
like , like doesnt mean that he is already God. he might has acted or talked like God as you say which I dont agree but did he ever said he is God ? NEVER NEVER NEVER, I wonder why never he said he is God. doesnt this tell you something ?
quote: I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves." (John 14:10-11). [/QB]
this is a misinterpretation of the text. let me give you a simple example with hope you will understand it. the man and the woman when they got married, dont you say they become one ? one in what way ? in a metaphorical way. not phsically one, but spiritually one. exactly what Jesus is telling you here, he is in the father , physically ? NO. but spirtiually because the Father Sent Him, so He is doing the WIll of the Father and delivering His message , so both are one , one in what ? in the purpose. but are they equal ? NO. read Jesus' speach himself, THE FATHER IS GREATERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR THAN ME. if they are one , the Father wouldnt be Greater than Him since they are one. if Jesus meant literally that whoever has seen him then he has seen God, then what do you say about this verse ?
john 5:37 37And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen him
Posts: 1201 | From: Egypt | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Thanks Mr. Egypt for your follow up. You didn't answer my question why the Jewish wanted to crucify Jesus or whatever the person as per Islam?
You have used an example can't be related to Jesus because it applies only on normal people who don't have miracles, or hundred prophecies about their pre-coming to the life and the purpose of the coming and many issues we can't simply neglect.
Your analyze isn't bad but depend on very close side we can't only depend on and leave everything behind.
Just get looking again at what Jesus said:
We can found an extremely unique phrase that shows His deity, in other words He spoke with authority. At least 10 times, He uses the phrase, "I am", to describe himself.
In John 8:58 Jesus says, "Verily, verily, I Say unto you, before Abraham was, I am."
The Jews understood Jesus perfectly when He said, "I am." They understood that He was calling Himself God, and they thought He had committed blasphemy for ascribing the name of God to himself. By reading Further you see that the Jews tried to stone Jesus.
Jesus also said: "I am the way", "I am the truth", "I am the door"," I am the bread of life", "I am the good shepherd".
He said, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working."
He said, "He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him." John 5:23
In John 10:30 Jesus said, "I and the Father are one."
Jesus also said in the gospel that "no man cometh to the Father, but by me." He said in another place, "He that believeth on the Son has eternal life: and He that believeth not the Son shall see life; but the wrath of God abides on him."
Can we neglect all these statements by Jesus?
In other words, Jesus claimed equality with God, isn't right? And as per his miracles that nobody did them before specially raising the dead and creating new eyes for blinds and many others, he confirmed his claim by that way.
The Jews said about that: "Nobody ever spoke the way this man did." In fact, the Jews and other people were amazed at how He talked because it was like one who talked with authority.
Jesus not only talked and said things like God but He also did things that only God could do.
Jesus allowed people to worship him and also forgive sins
The wise men who worshipped Jesus as a child (Matthew 2:11) The leper who worshipped Jesus (Matthew 8) The ruler who bowed and worshipped (Matthew 9:18) The blind believer who worshipped him (John 9:38) The women who worshipped him (Matthew 15:25) Mary Magdalene who worshipped him (Matthew 28:9) The disciples worshipped him (Matthew 28:17). And, all God's angel's who worship him (Hebrews 1:6)
Not only that but Jesus said that he will Judge the people: "For not even the Father judges everyone, but He has given all Judgment to the Son, in order that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Son."(John 5:22-30).
Before Jesus
With more then three hundred prophecies about Jesus, we can find out His deity from just looking at some of the prophecies here is one of that.
Isaiah 7:14, which says that A virgin will bear a child and His name is to be called Immanuel, which literally means," God with us". This unique prophecy was fulfilled in (Matthew 1:22-23).
There are six attributes of God that were ascribed to Jesus,
The first one is that Jesus had the power to create. The second one is that He had the power to forgive sins. The third one is that He had the power to raise the dead. The fourth one is that Jesus had the power to judge people. The fifth one is that Jesus had was to be worshipped. The sixth and last one is that Jesus ascribed the saying "I am" to himself at least ten times.
By studying what Jesus said and did and how He talked, we can come to the conclusion that not only did Jesus claim to be God, he also showed His deity and divinity.
And even Koran confirmed this Idea His Miracles,His strongly belonging to God him self (The Father of everything) as his own visible word which belonging to God's mind (Son Jesus) and his spirit (Holy Spirit) Are Christians saying anything difference than that?
If we said that Jesus was a liar it will be wrong because he proved the opposite by many ways
So now the Question is if Jesus is the word and the spirit of the God, Can God creates his own word and his spirit?
The Answer: If God created his word and his spirit like the other creatures it means God wasn't able to speak before Jesus and he was dead without his spirit and this can't be logically right.
And if God didn't create his word and his spirit it means the word and the spirit exist with the God from the beginning till the end because nothing created except God.
Therefore no difference between the God (father) his visible word (Jesus which belonging to him) and his spirit (Holy Spirit which prove he is alive God not an idea or Just name we are worshipping)
so my friend I have understood your example and hopfully you can start understand mine too.
posted
Servant,I think Mr Egypt and his friends have nothing to reply,unless they didn't read your post.
Posts: 903 | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Servant: You didn't answer my question why the Jewish wanted to crucify Jesus or whatever the person as per Islam?
because they didnt believe that Jesus is the Messenger of God and hence they tried to kill him as they are Prophets' murders. they are well known as Prophets' murders with Jesus' testemony himself. read matthew 23:31, so no wonder they wanted to kill Jesus too.
quote: We can found an extremely unique phrase that shows His deity, in other words He spoke with authority.
any prophet or Messenger must be given authority and God's support in order for his people to believe in him. so Jesus wasnt the only one to be given the authority BUT all the authority by God's persmission. for example, Jesus was given the authority to heal the blind, to raise the dead which no one can do at his time so that the people wont doubt him, but was he doing such miracles from hismelf ? the answer is certainly NO, who say that ? Jesus himself, where ? read:
john 5:30 ( I can of mine own self do nothing )
that's why whenever jesus did a miracle such as raising a dead he must first pray to God for the support. lets just read this example so we will understand this point:
when Jesus raised Lazarus , did he raise him with his ownself ? Jesus himself answer this question with his own action in the following verse :
41Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
now I guess Jesus left us no doubt that he is the Messenger of God and God was the one who support him with such miracle so that the people who stand by him may believe. believe in what ? believe that God has sent him , so Jesus is God's Messenger. not a big deal. now lets move to another point.
quote:He said, "He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him." John 5:23
first of all , this is a clear proof that Jesus is the messenger of God because God sent him, so there is a Sender (God) and a Messenger (Jesus) and they are not one.
secondly, if Jesus means litteraly that he is the son of God then David must be a better son of God since he is the begotten son of God as God himself say : (I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee) psalm 2:7 or Israel is a better son of God since he is God's firstborn as God say in Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn
quote:In John 10:30 Jesus said, "I and the Father are one."
I explained this already before
quote:Jesus also said in the gospel that "no man cometh to the Father, but by me."
a truth that cant be denied, but this is the case with any prophet. no one can go to God except by them, that's why God send Prophets. without Moses, the children of Israel wouldnt know about God. wihtout Jesus, they wouldnt know the way to the Kingdom of God. He came to show them the way, to remind them of the Message of God, and to teach them how to get close to Him which is the message of any prophet. would you know how to gain the eternity without the teaching of Jesus ? No. that's why ( a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
quote:In other words, Jesus claimed equality with God, isn't right?
not right. otherwise he wouldnt say statments like ( My father is greater than me ) ( But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.)
quote: And as per his miracles that nobody did them before specially raising the dead
correct your information please because Elisha raised the dead but honestly, the way he did that is weird but still , he raised the kid from the dead. read the story : 32And when Elisha was come into the house, behold, the child was dead, and laid upon his bed.
33He went in therefore, and shut the door upon them twain, and prayed unto the LORD.
34And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm.
35Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.
I dont need to give you more examples about the people who raised the dead from your bible.
quote:and creating new eyes for blinds [/b]
excuse me ? he created new eyes for blinds ? that's not true at all. the blinds had already their eyes but they cant see with it. I wish if you can provide your claim with a verse from the bible where someone had no eye and Jesus created it for him. but as I said before eventhough, it is still not Jesus with his ownself that did so, it was by God's permission. and that's why Jesus used to Pray to God for support and to Thank Him after He Hears him.
[quote]Jesus allowed people to worship him and also forgive sins
The wise men who worshipped Jesus as a child (Matthew 2:11) The leper who worshipped Jesus (Matthew 8) The ruler who bowed and worshipped (Matthew 9:18) The blind believer who worshipped him (John 9:38) The women who worshipped him (Matthew 15:25) Mary Magdalene who worshipped him (Matthew 28:9) The disciples worshipped him (Matthew 28:17). And, all God's angel's who worship him (Hebrews 1:6)
if you consider Jesus is God because those people worshiped him then does it mean that David is God also ? : lets read together:
And as David came to Ornan, Ornan looked and saw David, and went out of the threshingfloor, and bowed himself to David with his face to the ground.
quote:And even Koran confirmed this Idea
man, you know nothing about the Koran, or else you would know that the Koran say Jesus is nor more than a man and a messenger of God. Peace be upon him and upon all the prophets of God.
Posts: 1201 | From: Egypt | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Thanks for your reply Mr. Egypt but it seems that the main problem for you or Muslims is the relation between Jesus the visible word of God which we are calling him Son and God the father of everything this relation.
If you searched in the web about and started to understand then you will become more aware about the Christian's basic belief.
This relation is the puzzle point for Muslims and if they found the key to understand this point, it will be easy to understand everything behind, I did what I can do by giving hints To Whom It May Concern and the rest should coming by searching if someone is interested to know more.
quote:Any prophet or Messenger must be given authority and God's support in order for his people to believe in him. so Jesus wasn't the only one to be given the authority BUT all the authority by God's permission.
I am afraid that if we applied this standard on Messenger Mohamed it will make a big problem for you and Muslims too. Because in Quran he mentioned In Sura Alesraa 17-92 when They asked him to perform any Miracle he couldn't and he said I am just a human and Messenger .
Noted that Quran wasn't exist in a book that time for which the people read it as a whole book then believe in the prophethood but it were only verses coming depend on the occasion which Mohamed needs a support for his claim to convince his own people during that time .
quote:man, you know nothing about the Koran, or else you would know that the Koran say Jesus is nor more than a man and a messenger of God.
I know that and we also calling Jesus the son of Man because he is belonging to Marry and the son of God because he is belonging to God in the same time.
Jesus in Quran is the word and the spirit of God, he is doing what the God is doing, and he will come in the Judgment day,he still alive like God but when Mohamed discovered that all these will lead the people to believe in the divinity of Jesus same as Christian so he changed his way by telling that Jesus is created like Adam no more than that.
But this is called the contradiction of Quran which Muslims called "Nasikh and Mansoukh"which mean last verses deleted the meaning of the old verses and by Muslims Sheikh it's about 62% from Quran ,you can do your search for that my friend.
Posts: 222 | From: Heaven | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
GOD Almighty is neither a trinity, nor duality, nor plural in Islam:
"They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. (The Noble Quran, 5:73)"
"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (The Noble Quran, 112:1-4)"
"Say: 'O People of the Book (i.e., Jews and Christians)! Come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah.' If then they turn back, say ye: 'Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).' (The Noble Quran, 3:64)"
The Role of the Holy Spirit in Islam:
There are two roles that the Holy Spirit is responsible for according to Islam:
1- It creates our "spirits." Allah Almighty uses it to blow into our mothers' wombs our human-spirits. That is why abortion is prohibited in Islam, because the fetus or foetus does have spirit (life) and it is a human being. It's not just a little piece of unliving flesh:
"But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His Spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give! (The Noble Quran, 32:9)"
"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My Spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him. (The Noble Quran, 38:72)"
"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My Spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him. (The Noble Quran, 15:29)"
"And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples. (The Noble Quran, 21:91)"
"And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our Spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants). (The Noble Quran, 66:12)"
2- It is used to provide Divine Guidance to the Believers, those whom Allah Almighty Loves and Favors. It's not just the Holy Spirit that gives Guidance. Angels too give it:
"Raised high above ranks (or degrees), (He is) the Lord of the Throne (of Authority): by His Command doth He send the Spirit (of inspiration) to any of His servants he pleases, that it may warn (men) of the Day of Mutual Meeting,- (The Noble Quran, 40:15)"
"Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the Revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims. (The Noble Quran, 16:102)"
"Thou wilt not find any people who believe in God and the Last Day, loving those who resist God and His Apostle, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a Spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (for ever). God will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of God. Truly it is the Party of God that will achieve Felicity. (The Noble Quran, 58:22)"
"Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the Holy Spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.' (The Noble Quran, 5:110)"
So as you can see, Allah Almighty Created the Holy Spirit for specific functions not only on this earth, but also perhaps else where in the Universe where we don't know about. But it is in no way GOD Almighty Himself.Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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The Bible is similar to the Noble Quran regarding the role of the Holy Spirit. It never claimed that the Holy Spirit is GOD Almighty Himself. In section 4 below, you will see some of the types of the Holy Spirit, or Spirit, that GOD Almighty Created for Mankind. But for now, let us see what the Bible says about the Holy Spirit:
"When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 104:30)"
"Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 139:7)"
"Teach me to do your will, for you are my God; may your good Spirit lead me on level ground. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 143:10)"
So far, these verses are talking about the Spirit from GOD Almighty. The first verse above, Psalm 104:30, perfectly agrees with the Noble Verses above about GOD Almighty Blowing His Spirit into our mothers' wombs when we're fetus.
So does this now mean that the Holy Spirit, in the Bible, is part of GOD Almighty?
Absolutely not! The Bible is filled with figurative speech. I've written a detailed article proving this using many examples. The Holy Spirit mentioned above is a creation from GOD Almighty. It's purpose is to create our spirits as mentioned in Psalm 104:30. Another purpose for the Holy Spirit is to Guide the Believers:
1 Samuel 16:16 "Let our lord command his servants here to search for someone who can play the harp. He will play when the evil spirit from God comes upon you, and you will feel better." GOD HAS AN EVIL SPIRIT?! Obviously not, it's only metaphoric as mentioned above.
1 Samuel 18:10 "The next day an evil spirit from God came forcefully upon Saul. He was prophesying in his house, while David was playing the harp, as he usually did. Saul had a spear in his hand..." ANOTHER EVIL SPIRIT FROM GOD?! Again, it is only metaphoric.
1 Samuel 19:9 "But an evil spirit from the LORD came upon Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand. While David was playing the harp,..." ANOTHER EVIL SPIRIT FROM GOD?!
1 Kings 22:23 "God sent LYING SPIRITS to lie to people" Does GOD lie?!
Numbers 24:2 "When Balaam looked out and saw Israel encamped tribe by tribe, the Spirit of God came upon him"
Judges 3:10 "The Spirit of the LORD came upon him, so that he became Israel's judge and went to war. The LORD gave Cushan-Rishathaim king of Aram into the hands of Othniel, who overpowered him."
Judges 6:34 "Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet, summoning the Abiezrites to follow him."
Judges 11:29 "Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites."
Judges 14:6 "The Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power so that he tore the lion apart with his bare hands as he might have torn a young goat. But he told neither his father nor his mother what he had done."
Judges 14:19 "Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power. He went down to Ashkelon, struck down thirty of their men, stripped them of their belongings and gave their clothes to those who had explained the riddle. Burning with anger, he went up to his father's house."
Judges 15:14 "As he approached Lehi, the Philistines came toward him shouting. The Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power. The ropes on his arms became like charred flax, and the bindings dropped from his hands."
1 Samuel 10:6 "The Spirit of the LORD will come upon you in power, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person."
1 Samuel 10:10 "When they arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came upon him in power, and he joined in their prophesying."
1 Samuel 11:6 "When Saul heard their words, the Spirit of God came upon him in power, and he burned with anger."
1 Samuel 16:13 "So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on the Spirit of the LORD came upon David in power. Samuel then went to Ramah."
Luke 1:35 "The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you (Mary), and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God."
Luke 2:25 "Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him."
There are, as I mentioned, several types of this Spirit as mentioned in section 4 below.
So if Jesus is GOD because the Holy Spirit came upon him, then the others mentioned above should also be GOD Almighty too.Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:So if Jesus is GOD because the Holy Spirit came upon him, then the others mentioned above should also be GOD Almighty too.
I told you before concentrate in Quran better as it's matching your mind,leave the bible to their own people .
Posts: 222 | From: Heaven | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
Why can't we call it GOD as trinitarians do?
First of all, it is important to know that satan's biggest lie, trinity, is only an interpretation and a conclusion. There is not a single text in the Bible that says the Holy Spirit is GOD Almighty, nor does that satanic word, trinity, even exist in the Bible. People during Constantine's days around year 325, because they were and still are naturally inclined to idol worship, polytheism and paganism as the Far Eastern religions are today, they decided to consider Jesus and the Holy Spirit as GOD Almighty. Satan's deception and evil is overwhelming and powerful. It is no surprise that people fell for this lie by the billions throughout history, as many more billions had fell for satan's lies in the Far Eastern pagan religions. Trinity, like I said, doesn't even exist in the bible. The word doesn't exist anywhere in the book, nor do we have any text that says Jesus is the Creator of the Universe. The same also goes for the Holy Spirit.
The reason why Muslims don't call the Holy Spirit as GOD Almighty is because it is just a creation of GOD Almighty with specific and limited duties as I clearly demonstrated above from the Noble Quran. Like the Angels and the other Universal Spirits, the Holy Spirit is unknown to us and we can't fully describe it. But nonetheless, this doesn't give anyone the right to start getting colorful and smart and deceive the weak-minded and call it and other creations as GOD Almighty.
I have a long and detailed section that refutes the lie of trinity from the Bible. It's best if you read it and see the Truth for yourself.
Also, it seems clear that the Bible has several types of Universal Spirits, or Holy Spirits. For instance, we see a prediction about the "Spirit of Fearing GOD" being installed in the coming Prophet, Jesus:
Isaiah 11:1-3 1. A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. 2. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him (Jesus)-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD (Jesus fearing his GOD)-- 3. and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears;
As we see in Isaiah 11:1-3, there is:
1- Spirit of Wisdom and Understanding.
2- Spirit of Counsel and of power.
3- Spirit of Knowledge.
4- Spirit of the fear of the LORD.
Also, the verses above say "and he will delight in the fear of the LORD", which clearly proves that Jesus is under GOD Almighty and can not be equivalent to Him or part of Him, because GOD Almighty has no fear in Him. He Created fear, or the Spirit of Fear, and He installs it on whom ever He pleases. But He Himself doesn't have that Spirit in Him!
The verses above also say "He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears;...", which further proves that Jesus is not part of GOD Almighty, because GOD Almighty Speaks and Hears whatever He Pleases!
The Bible's New Testament also records Jesus saying: ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"
If Jesus doesn't consider himself as "good", then how can any sane person put him on the same level as GOD Almighty?
I have yet to see a good answer to this one by any polytheist trinitarian.
Also, another important point to notice in Mark 10:18 is the word "alone": ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"
Jesus in this verse is clearly giving exclusivity to GOD Almighty when he said "alone". If Jesus was truly part of GOD Almighty and/or the trinity lie was true, then Jesus, to say the least, would not have said that.
Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
I think Servant, now I got why Mohammed did Quran, as his people couldn't understand Christianity by their limited mind that time and still their new generations inheriting that thinking except few people who are understand by open mind I don't know if this related to the poor education they have, but one of my Arabian friend here who became Christian recently after your service in Holland,
Told me that Muslims wondering why God is giving the sciences and the money to Europe, America and many non Muslim countries even Israel and leaving his own people (Muslims) who are claiming that they are the best nation in the world, leaving them in poverty and illiteracy or rich with illiteracy like Gulf, he said that this a kind of his anger because they didn't understand his will, and followed wrong teaching corrupted what God said through Jesus, so servant don't blame yourself the Satan will stay behind everyone trying to understand the God's plan for salvation from hell.
Posts: 903 | Registered: Aug 2006
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