posted
Just a question, I was talking with someone yesterday and this person was saying how a lot of the Coptics in Egypt are killed by muslims.
I have been on this board for a few months now and it has really put my mind at ease about going to Cairo, but after talking to this person it put chills down my spine. Things said were like, "if you ever go back to Christianity from Islam they will find you and kill you...even if you're in the US".......
now don't get me wrong, in no way am I even thinking of going back to Christianity. I have never felt more at peace than I do now as a muslimah, but is this true what this person said to me? They were truly truly full of fear!!! Posts: 1808 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2006
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that's not true. I know two of muslims who converted from Islam to Christianity that live freely without any problems. they even preach christianity on the paltalk if you know this program, it is a chat program. one of them work along with a pastor attacking Islam on 7ayah channel , the name of the pastor Zacharia and the converted name is Nahed Metwaly (female). but the person who told you this should have told you what coptics do to the persons who leave christianity in Egypt, the last well known persons were two female doctors, the church got them back from the police and jailed them in the church and shaved their hair Posts: 1201 | From: Egypt | Registered: Mar 2006
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Yeah this person really freaked me out! I mean they were actually reluctant to speak freely with me for fear that I would rat them out....and they don't even live there anymore!!! When they asked me if I knew how many copts have been murdered by all of the muslims there I didn't even know what to say. Posts: 1808 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Doodle, please don't be worried about going to Cairo. I want you to go and have a great time. It's sooooo much fun.
Egyptian culture is very complex, just like any other. There does seem to be some tension between Muslims and Christians at times. But if it were so bad/dangerous for Christians, I don't think all the Coptic cab drivers would have huge crosses prominently displayed in their cabs for all to see, readily identifying their religion to all who care to know. At least that is my impression as an American.
I talked a lot of politics and religion with many, many Muslims in Cairo when I visited, and never did I hear anything bad said about Christians.
Truly, I'd be more afraid to be a German tourist in Florida than an American tourist in Cairo.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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Don't afraid from going to Egypt doodlebug there are 10 millions christians and hundreds churches,even the name Egypt came from the word GYPT which mean copt,Egypt is safe and the people are friendly and helpful,just take care of going so far alone or with somebody strange,you may heard some bad stories and news about copts and muslims,don't worry all of these centralize in upper egypt and far from the main cities like Cairo.
Posts: 903 | Registered: Aug 2006
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its no more a problme than being in your own country ,never had a problem im muslim ad when i was there my coptic friends treat me with the up most hops[itality and they where there cross with a blue stone of mother mariam not a problem ,as i see such ...not saying things dont happen but as i said no more than a murder or someone dying in yur own city ..but its true coptic chirches really get mad if your changing from the faith to another ...
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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I don't live in Egypt, so I can't speak for Egypt. But it is known that it is difficult for former Muslims who have become Christians in an predominately Islamic society. I am more than sure that the vast majority of Egyptian Muslims are cool, moderate people. But there are extremists in Egypt.............
Read a few articles about persecution of Copts in Egypt. Also, I don't know what Mr. Egypt is talking about, but I do remember reading something which said(Egyptian law) that it is illegal for a Muslim to convert to Christianity, but it is legal for a Christian to become Muslim.......If that isn't unfair, I don't know what "unfairness" means. Salaam
Posts: 826 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by doodlebug: Just a question, I was talking with someone yesterday and this person was saying how a lot of the Coptics in Egypt are killed by muslims.
I have been on this board for a few months now and it has really put my mind at ease about going to Cairo, but after talking to this person it put chills down my spine. Things said were like, "if you ever go back to Christianity from Islam they will find you and kill you...even if you're in the US".......
now don't get me wrong, in no way am I even thinking of going back to Christianity. I have never felt more at peace than I do now as a muslimah, but is this true what this person said to me? They were truly truly full of fear!!!
yes it's true ..this religion needs protection ...their god is weak ...they kill anyone who converts out..
Posts: 226 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Josh: yes it's true ..this religion needs protection ...their god is weak ...they kill anyone who converts out..
you are a liar Josh. in the other thread you said you know that Quran better than me so you should know that our God is the Most Powerfull. but I tell you, your god is the weak and I can show you where in your book, because I know your book better than you Posts: 1201 | From: Egypt | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by loveforever: you may heard some bad stories and news about copts and muslims,don't worry all of these centralize in upper egypt and far from the main cities like Cairo.
I am regularly in Upper Egypt, I have never seen or heard of any problems between Christians and Muslims, they all live quite happily in peace with each other. The Christian shops are all decorated with crosses and pictures of Jesus and Mary and are mingled with the Muslim shops which are decorated with verses from Quran. Muslim women go to Christian hairdressers and beaty shops and there are mixed schools, all without problems.
Egypt is a very safe and relaxed country doodle, do not be afraid of going, you will love it and be welcomed.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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josh and Mr Egypt!! how many gods are there?? whats all this 'my God is better than your God' 'your God is weak' its rubbish and Mr Egypt you should know better!
There is ONE GOD
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
The situation of Copts is a complicated one. Indeed read some articles on the net. The reason they don't go into hiding is that there is no way to hide unless you start to dress up as a moslim also. Currently there is less of a 'general' public then some decades ago. Religion is very prominent in the public sphere. Copts are also 'magically' attached to their display and I noticed an increased attraction to 'suffering' for your religion like Christ did. Still violence against Christians or tourists for that matter remain very incidental. You more likely get hit by a car or attract an unwanted dissease. The incident me and my husband had in Egypt was also immediately adressed by the tourist police. It's a shame and a loss to Egypt, since Christians are outnumbering Moslims in emigrating to the West and they are overrepresented in entrepreneurial work due to discrimination but that's really all it is.
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Due to Islamism Christians are withdrawing from several countries. The latest are Christians from southern Lebanon that got cought in the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah.
quote:Originally posted by loveforever: Don't afraid from going to Egypt doodlebug there are 10 millions christians and hundreds churches,even the name Egypt came from the word GYPT which mean copt,Egypt is safe and the people are friendly and helpful,just take care of going so far alone or with somebody strange,you may heard some bad stories and news about copts and muslims,don't worry all of these centralize in upper egypt and far from the main cities like Cairo.
That is not true either. The latest incidents were at the Girgis church in Alexandrie and some incidents in the streets there. The gouvernment usually adresses this as the acts of a single lunatic. May be right but they get their ideas from hatred talks by some fanatic moslims.
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
There were several newsitems on christian families lately that could not burry their relative since they were told to have converted to Islam. And therefore were not alowd to be buried in their familygraves. I believe some Christians now may pose as Moslims for economical reasons.
posted
Yes, Demiana, "Posing for economic reasons" is historically why the general populace seems to convert when they are conquered . . . sometimes, it is too hard to survive under a new regime/dictatorship/whatever.
Also, I have heard of the incidents in Alexandria and Upper Egypt (was that last year or the year before??) . . . so there are some problems. We also had some problems in New Jersey where are very big immigrant Egyptian population lives (Copts and Muslims) . . . seems the problems get emigrated right along with them!
Here's a link to tourepypts info about Copts: Copts in Egypt
Here's a link from a newsreport in 1997 about some problems: Copts killed in EgyptPosts: 895 | From: NorthTexas, USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
I had a few coptic friends that tried to get me to convert, and would question me as to why I was muslim and covered etc This would happen on a daily basis. I asked them not to question me as I did not question them and everyone is free and entitiled to their opinions.I remember having to carry id with me when the christain woman, who was married to a priest converted to islam and caused an outcry, as she had gone into hiding. I also remember the priest who was photographed having sex in the church,in ahmed said, abbassia.
-------------------- Learn from the past. Live in the present. Hope for the future. Posts: 1474 | From: in my own paradise | Registered: Sep 2006
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The problem is that this rising tension and pointing at it brings up debilitating arguments and slander, blaming the victims. As if it is the personal responsibility of someone Christian or Moslim that this is going on. It is not. It is the rising of Islamist politics that creates a hostile environment where violent incidents do happen and peacefully living neighbours get torn apart.
We prefer living in a mixed culture area and not a predominantly muslimarea as dh indeed perceives problems otherwise even here. The only negative is that we don't have the choice in Arabic lessons on highschools as in those area's. Of course children do learn in church but I would prefer more literature and general history added.
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: josh and Mr Egypt!! how many gods are there?? whats all this 'my God is better than your God' 'your God is weak' its rubbish and Mr Egypt you should know better!
There is ONE GOD
it is just that I got sick of those who say they know our Book better than us, I know that There is No God but One God Posts: 1201 | From: Egypt | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Am I bovvered(WOTEVER): I had a few coptic friends that tried to get me to convert, and would question me as to why I was muslim and covered etc This would happen on a daily basis. I asked them not to question me as I did not question them and everyone is free and entitiled to their opinions.I remember having to carry id with me when the christain woman, who was married to a priest converted to islam and caused an outcry, as she had gone into hiding. I also remember the priest who was photographed having sex in the church,in ahmed said, abbassia.
yes sex wet you dirty mind ass always
Posts: 428 | Registered: Nov 2004
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i know one who was a muslim priest and was giving more than quran lessons ,but oh no they didnt do him they shipped hom to another town ,uhm so convenient ..coverup there as usual ..wrks both ways men of the gown having sex ..
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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"Last month, members of the Coptic community (Orthodox Christian Egyptians) and other individuals convened in Washington, D.C. to discuss the problems facing Copts in Egypt. Despite the complete personal disagreement between myself and the individual who initiated this conference, I will put aside the personal angle in dealing with this topic… since I feel that my way of thinking and writing is above getting dragged into the kind of style known from the security services' investigations department, which [tends to] abandon the heart of the matter and pursue marginal issues related to personalities, suspicions and conspiratorial thinking.
"This security-service mentality is one of the factors that contributed to the collapse of objectivity and rationality in our thinking, and which [cause this kind of thinking] to be so far removed from objective and civilized modes of analysis which are one of the achievements of human civilization.
"The basic issue is: 'Do the Copts in Egypt suffer from serious problems in their own country?' The only possible answer is: 'Yes'.
"Yes, Copts fear for themselves, their families, their property and their safety much more than Muslims do, though the latter, too, are not completely safe."
"Yes, Copts Suffer From a Public Atmosphere of Fanaticism".
"Yes, Copts suffer from a public atmosphere of fanaticism, which is not characterized by friendliness towards them.
"These are the essential aspects of the subject. To accuse anyone who speaks of these matters of being an agent of parties hostile to Egypt, or of being involved in a plot against Egypt, is simply a joke, an insult to the truth and an affront to reason.
"Among the Copts who are concerned with the general Coptic issue, none fail to realize the extent of the disagreement between myself and the engineer 'Adli Abadir, who sponsored the Zurich conference and the upcoming conference in Washington.
"However, I am the kind of person who can say, and I do say, that [despite the fact that] I cannot stand 'Adli Abadir, nor the way in which he presents his thoughts and his style of writing and speaking. I shall continue so long as I live to reiterate what I have said in this article, and even more. Likewise, I will never say that 'Adli Abadir is an agent acting in someone else's [interest], or that he is conspiring with anyone to harm Egypt. [To make such accusations] is the style of riffraff and a reflection of the style of the security services' investigations department, whose time has passed.
"[As] someone who respects his own thought and intellect - and in my case, his writing - I do not allow myself to join the pack of barking dogs or to abandon the essence of the issue and to look to impugn 'Adli Abadir and Mike Munir's character, because an intellectual must have a totally different nature than that of a police detective."
Egypt Will Never Get On the Road to Recovery so Long as Copts and Women Do Not Enjoy Full and Unimpaired Citizenship.
"A few years ago, a person came to my office whose high-level position and job had direct bearing on the Coptic issue, and he asked me why I was so enthusiastically involved in what I call in my writings 'the Coptic issue.' I told him at the time that as an Egyptian it is my obligation to do so, and this is also what makes me support women's issues in Egypt - because Egypt, which today is sick, will never get on the road to recovery so long as Copts and women do not take part in treating Egypt's problems from a position of full and unimpaired citizenship.
"A person who is oppressed and whose rights are denied cannot participate in pushing forward the broken-down wagon. I was sure that this visitor did not understand what I told him, because he was trained to treat the Copts as a threat to Egypt, despite the fact that they are the original Egypt."
If We Don't Recognize the Problem, it Will Turn Into an International Human Rights Issue.
"At the time, I also told him: 'If the Coptic issue is not discussed here, in Egypt, it will eventually be discussed abroad, and if we don't recognize all the aspects of the problem, then the Copts abroad will take [their cause] from the stage of merely crying out that they are being oppressed to the stage of [calling it] a human rights issue, and then many will pay attention to them on an international level, including important decision-makers.'
"When I was young, I heard the Arab adage: 'Most fires start from small sparks that people overlooked.' Today [we realize that] most troubles result from their having been ignored when they were small. We demand of the world that they believe our claim that we are above reproach in our treatment of non-Muslims and women, and we relish repeating this, while the world looks at our deeds and finds them to be totally contrary to what we say.
"To come back to the issue of the Copts in Egypt, I contend that the fact that most senior officials continue to ignore the Coptic issue will bring Egypt to crises which I can almost make out on the horizon. They are similar to the crises of others in the region - others who fell prey to the temptation to ignore some problems, and especially to ignore the realities of today's world, that is, the post-Cold War world.
"This is a world in which the idea of sovereignty in its old sense, which had been stable for the many decades preceding the fall of the Berlin Wall, is no longer of any use to anyone. There are those who understand this new world, and there are those who are unable to understand and take in all dimensions of this change…". CRO
copyright 2006 Tarek Heggy
*Tarek Heggy- Columnist
Tarek Heggy is both a leading liberal political thinker in the Arab world and International Petroleum Strategist. His work advances the causes of modernity, democracy, tolerance, and women’s rights in the Middle East – advocating them as universal values essential to the region’s progress. In addition to being amongst the members of the first echelon of the contemporary Arab liberal thinkers, Tarek Heggy is a well-known international speaker/lecturer. During the past ten years, Tarek Heggy was invited to lecture at a wide number of world class universities including the King’s College of London University, Oxford, Princeton, Columbia, Maryland, California Berkeley and University of Colorado – Boulder. Heggy's website is located at http://www.heggy.orgPosts: 903 | Registered: Aug 2006
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"We demand of the world that they believe our claim that we are above reproach in our treatment of non-Muslims and women, and we relish repeating this, while the world looks at our deeds and finds them to be totally contrary to what we say."
This man simply is lightyears ahead and right about his analysis. The problem is that even if the gouvernment of Mubarak does recognize this issue (they may well, they are not stupid either) there is this political and managerial problem to get the general crowd to back this. The gouvernment of Mubarak is known to 'harmonize' the issues by giving Al Azhar the 'controlled' chance to Islamize the country to prevent the more archaic Brotherhood from doing so. The only chance here lies in economical benefit recognized by the general population i.e. people need to experience (and approve) that alowing Christians and women to help repair the 'band wagon' is getting them somewhere.
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Maybe some of us need to understand that unless the still ongoing threat of Islamism is stopped and religion will adjust better to modern life change will not be possible.
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
doodlebug, i would advise you to change your name in the US and move out as soon as u make a decision to leave Islam. Secret word "dont talk about leaving Islam to ANY muslims" dont even discuss the faith...they will suspect u and track u down/just walk away in one morning and change your name.
Posts: 226 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Josh: doodlebug, i would advise you to change your name in the US and move out as soon as u make a decision to leave Islam. Secret word "dont talk about leaving Islam to ANY muslims" dont even discuss the faith...they will suspect u and track u down/just walk away in one morning and change your name.
quote: Originally posted by doodlebug: now don't get me wrong, in no way am I even thinking of going back to Christianity. I have never felt more at peace than I do now as a muslimah
posted
Pope Shenouda III reaffirms inter-faith harmony in Egypt
Pope Shenouda, Egypt's highest Coptic authority, has praised religious harmony in Egypt, strongly dismissing Western media allegations about religious discrimination between Muslims and Christians in the country. Shenouda stressed President Mubarak's keenees to maintain national unity between Muslims and Copts of Egypt. Highlighting Egypt's religious tolerance, the Pope reiterated that Copts face no difficulty in building or renovating churches in Egypt. The Pope also pointed out the inadequte representation of Copts in Parliament, local councils and professional cyndicates. Shenoda also pinpointed his missions which expanded following the opening of new churches in America, Canada, Europe as well as in some Arab and African states. His statements also included his viewpoints on worldy matters and religious issues of interest to Copts and Muslims alike.
In an interview with Samir Ragab, the Board Chairman of Al-Tahrir Publishing and Printing House and Editor-in-Chief of al-Gomhuria daily, Pope Shenouda III paid tribute to President Hosni Mubarak, describing him as a stalwart of national unity. "Relations between Muslim and Coptic figures are excellent. President Mubarak is an enemy of all sorts of extremism, bigotry and discrimination. He always positively responds to our demands," Pope Shenouda told Ragab, who is also the editor-in-chief of Mayo weekly, the mouthpiece of the ruling National Democratic Party (NDP).
"We have good relations with ministers, senior officials as well as Muslim leaders," he said. The Coptic religious leader also described as 'unique' his relationship with the Grand Imam of Al-Azhar Sheikh Mohammed Sayed Tantawi, the highest Muslim authority in Egypt. The relationship between the Orthodox Coptic Church and Al-Azhar mosque is historical, Pope Shenouda said in the interview published in the weekly edition of Al-Gomhuria newspaper today.
"In the 1919 uprising against the British occupation, priests went to Al-Azhar mosque and addressed the people there. Our churches also used to host Sheikhs from Al-Azhar who made similar addresses," the Pope recalled. He added that the Egyptian leader instructed the creation of a committee with the Ministry of Waqfs (religious endowments) to probe disputes over Coptic endowments. However, Pope Shenouda regretted the poor representation of Copts in the legislature and municipal councils.
"Copts rarely make it in elections either in parliament, local councils or even professional syndicates. The representation of Copts in these councils is very inadequate and the state should find a way to redress this imbalance," he said. The Pope proposed several means of increasing Coptic representation in these councils. "For instance, residents of the densely populated Shoubra suburb in Cairo are mainly Copts but most of them do not have voting cards. The government should ease the procedures of obtaining these cards to encourage them to vote in elections," he said. "I'm not asking for special political privileges for Copts. But a greater Coptic participation (in legislative councils) will enhance Egypt's reputation," he said. The Pope argued that extremists carrying out attacks against Copts or Coptic establishments mar the image of Egypt and also violate Islam's spirit of tolerance. "In the presence of advanced means of communications it's difficult to suppress reporting of such attacks. Even if the Egyptian media underreport them, foreign media will have them widely publicised," he said.
However, he added that the government was doing its best to contain these attacks. "When a church was attacked in Maghagha (in south Egypt), the government quickly renovated the damaged building. But the perpetrators of these attacks inflict more damage on Egypt's reputation than Coptic interests. Thank God such attacks have remarkably declined," Shenouda told Samir Ragab in the interview.
"Frankness is needed to avoid the recurrence of these unfortunate incidents," he added. Pope Shenouda said that Copts face no difficulty in building or renovating churches in Egypt, despite the application of an Ottoman-era law which places some restrictions on this process. He elaborated that the Ottoman law had not banned the building of churches, but requested Copts to obtain certain permissions before doing this.
"The problems were not caused by the law but by the Interior Ministry undersecretary in 1938 who imposed 10 conditions to complicate this process. These conditions are sometimes misused," he said.
"But at present, the President removed restrictions on the building and renovation of churches. A couple of years ago, Western media claimed that we have a problem (in building new churches). We contacted them and stressed that we build and renovate our churches very easily," he said. Pope Shenouda III also said that the Coptic Church in Egypt was maintaining strong relations with Coptic expatriates especially in the United States and Canada.
"There are two main goals of keeping strong contacts with them. The first is to protect them and their offspring from the tendency to abuse freedom, which might occasionally result in moral deviation. Secondly, we want to keep them linked to their home country," he said. He added that the Coptic Church was also building and sponsoring churches in several European countries like the United Kingdom, France, Italy, Austria, Germany and Greece.
Other churches are also established in Australia and several African countries, he said. Pope Shenouda also said that the Church was advocating teaching the Arabic language among expatriate Copts to maintain their relationship with their homeland. Shenouda said that Coptic expatriates could help establish Egyptian and Arab pressure groups in the countries where they live.
"We should not lose those expatriates by attacking them. On the contrary, we have to make the best use of them to promote our national interests," he said. He added that an Egyptian or Arab lobby in a super power like the United States would help counter the increasing influence of the Jewish state in this country.
Arabic version
-------------------- Learn from the past. Live in the present. Hope for the future. Posts: 1474 | From: in my own paradise | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Pope Shenouda obviously is a very good diplomat. Can't help feeling Stockholm syndrome here either.
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
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