posted
Does Batman, the righteous machine, has a point?
"O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith." (Surah 5:101-102).
"The prophet was asked about things which he did not like, and when the questioner insisted, the Prophet got angry. (Bukhari. vol. 1, no. 92)
The Prophet got angry and his cheeks or his face became red. (Bukhari vol. 1, no. 91)
"Allah has hated you...[for] asking too many questions." (Bukhari vol. 2, no. 555; and vol. 3, no. 591.
"The Holy Prophet himself forbade people to ask questions ...so do not try to probe into such things." (The Meaning of the Qur'an, Maududi, vol. III, pgs. 76-77)
Posts: 3188 | Registered: Feb 2007
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Yet another reason why I don’t read in Bukhari,
it gives people like Loveforever, Israel, Undercover an easy way to attack Islam Bukhari and Muslim' books are only man made books, does not only have the opinion of the author, and whatever was added after they passed away, it also have the opinion of the publishers, and the Copiers ( in the past those books ware not printed, but copied by hand, a prophesies that was dominated by Jews in the middle-east) What guarantees we have that those books have not been changed or altered, or amended, what guarantees we have that a Jew who was assigned the task of copying one of those book have not added his own sick twisted poison
Posts: 785 | From: Cairo, Egypt | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Originally posted by welsafty: Yet another reason why I dont read in Bukhari,
Do yo feel shame from prophet Muhammed's deeds?
do I need to clarify it more, Love forever is a great example of how Bukhari is used against Islam, this is one reason why those who hate Islam encourage the uses of other sources beside Quran, simply because it is very easy to attack Islam away from Quran
no you slick edit, I am not ashamed of My prophet, I am not ashamed of Imam Bukhari, Nor Imam Muslim, I just don’t accept the Sahih books as a reference, when you have something against Quran , bring it but next time, don’t use half the verse, Use all of it, and don’t depend on translated interpretation aided by wrong hadith,
even in this matter , there is no hadith It is an opinion of someone who does not have any evidence for a bogus story The prophet got mad when someone asked him a question? Who was this someone, what did he ask about, and what was the prophet's reply to him??? The claim itself does contradict Quran, The prophet got mad for being asked a question? What was his reaction, did he call him names? Did he slap him on the face?? What about all the teachings in quran ? انا ارسلناك شاهدا و مبشرا و نذيرا و ان كنت فظا غليظ القلب لانفضو من حولك و ما ارسلناك الا رحمة للعالمين و اما السائل فلا تنهر, و اما اليتيم فلا تقهر, و اما بنعمة ربك فحدث تلك الايات نفصلها للناس جادلهم باللتي هي احسن و اللذين اذا خاطبهم الجاهلون قالو سلاما يريدون ان يطفئو نور اللة بافواههم
Posts: 785 | From: Cairo, Egypt | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Religious folk from my experience never like being questioned in depth about their religion, especially if the questions follow a logical pattern.
They fear the questions will expose their religion as being fraudulent in the eyes of the unbeliever or skeptic, and even worse, in the eyes of themselves.
Which is why they consider these questions as a form of ATTACK.
~Alistair
-------------------- Lies fade like smoke when uncovered..but Truth, burns like fire. Posts: 1221 | Registered: Sep 2006
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"O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith." (Surah 5:101-102).
Posts: 3188 | Registered: Feb 2007
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Mr.welsafty,I am not using Bukhari to attack Islam but it's the most accredit book for Muslims mentioned prophet's saying..beside "Sahih Muslim" if you belong to "Quranist sect" we can understand your point but I really understand your confuse,we are just ringing the bell to our beloved Muslims that there is something wrong and they have to read more,I don't benefit anything other than I love Muslims and want them to know who is Jeus.GBU
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quote:Originally posted by loveforever: Mr.welsafty I see that you want to depend on Quran only but have you got a look before on the errors in Quran. www.islamreview.com/articles/biblevsquran.shtml
posted
The art of asking questions is the very soul and substance of all scholarship and research. Asking questions is the only way to find out the Truth about any religion including Islam. We must always remember that Truth is never afraid of the spotlight of investigation.
In order to find an answer to the topic of our dialogue, we must be willing to ask some very hard questions. We must probe deeply into the sources of Islam. We must be willing to let history and science answer our questions instead of blindly following the dictates of dogmatism. [Dr. Moorey]Posts: 3188 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Undercover: Is not this verse from the Quran?
"O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith." (Surah 5:101-102).
this is the actual verse, "O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. but if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, God will forgive those: for God is oft-forgiving, most Merciful. . Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith." (Surah 5:101-102).
quote:Originally posted by welsafty: when you have something against Quran , bring it but next time, don’t use half the verse, Use all of it, and don’t depend on translated interpretation aided by wrong hadith,
this is exactly why I said if you quote Quranic verse, quote the whole verse and do not chose the part that suet your SICK EVEL desire to attack a religion that cannot be refuted.
you saw the verse, and got the translation, but intentionally removed the part that explains why not to ask, and without the part to have INTENTIONALY neglected, it sounds as if Quran doesn’t want us to ask, while in fact, Quran only advise us about when to ask,
going through the LOGIC of the verse, when you ask questions you are not ready to receive the answer to, it may cause you more harm than good, and the verse gave us an example of those who have done this, and that the questions they asked when they ware not ready for the answers caused them harm ( because they ware not ready for the Truth, and caused them to lose their faith), meaning that even if you ask, you will get the answer (that may not be to your liking.)
this advisory for believers to think about what they ask before they do ask, is in fact mercy for all man kind, it is not a black out , not an order to neglect our desire to learn or to put our logic aside.
YOU and your sick friends wish if Quran have made such a mistake
سبحان اللة .... لا يحاج هذا الدين احدا, الا غلبة
Posts: 785 | From: Cairo, Egypt | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
How does quoting the entire verse changes the meaning? I do not see any difference in the meaning.
"O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. but if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, God will forgive those: for God is oft-forgiving, most Merciful. . Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith." (Surah 5:101-102).
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So would it be fair to say to Ayisha and Dalia, to not ask any questions because their hearts are not open and ready enough to accept that women are inferior to men? That they first will have to prepare their hearts for this fact in order to ask further questions?
Posts: 3188 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by loveforever: Mr.welsafty,I am not using Bukhari to attack Islam but it's the most accredit book for Muslims mentioned prophet's saying..beside "Sahih Muslim" if you belong to "Quranist sect"
Although, it is an accredited book but even Imam Bukhari in his introduction denies any claim to faultlessness. He devised a method of ascertaining the truth of the hadiths he collected. This method was entirely man made so it can never be water tight. Any muslim has to take the contents of Bukhari within thier limitations. They are not Gospel , so to speak...and some of it may not be true. In fact some of it is not true because Bukhari did not include in his method ascertaining the content of the hadith. He only tried to ascertain the reliability of the people who told them, in a one by one in a chain that spreads a couple hundred years or so. It's got to be faulty somewhere and the content of Bukhari is just his best effort. There are however, some hadiths which are known to be true because of their being said in prescence of large groups of people or because they've been repeated over and over in many situations. These are described as certain by the Azhar, for example...but they are very few.
There is also some concern about a famous hadith teller (Abu Horayra) who is known to have been a friend and constant companion of a Jewish convert to Islam from Yemen. Very good men both of them... but the Jewish friend often told Abu Horayra about the contents of his previous beliefs. Abu horayra used to talk a great deal switching in the conversation from what he heard from Mohammad PBUH to what he heard from his friend and comparing between them .There is historical record of an incident (maybe more than one; some of which undetected) that people confused what they heard from Abu Horyara making the stories that came from the Yemeni Jewish tradition sound as if they were told by Mohammad PBUH ; upon which incident Omar Bin Alkhattab ordered Abu Horayra not to tell hadiths anymore.
P.S. I'm not Qurani sect. I believe in the Bukhari with a pinch of salt except for the certain hadiths that do not clash with logic or quranic sources.
Posts: 670 | From: alex living in leeds, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by loveforever: Mr.welsafty I see that you want to depend on Quran only but have you got a look before on the errors in Quran. www.islamreview.com/articles/biblevsquran.shtml
wow what a dumb website, obviously who ever put those stupid remarks is a freaking genius, using the logic of a 5 years old to disagree with Quran
wow what a GENIOUS finding all those Scientific errors
Mohammed proclaimed the Quran as the miracle that proved his prophethood. There has been, however, much debate among intellectual Muslims on the issue of the miracle of the Quran. Some Arabic scholars like az-Zamakhshari noted more than one hundred grammatical errors in the Quran.
what debate? bring me one muslim who is disputing the miracle of Quran , unless of course he is just an imposter like loveforever who is claiming to be Muslim to inject his poison
yet another WOooooW, grammatical errors ? the science of Arabic grammar itself نحو was directly taken based on qur`an, so there is no way Quran that is the basis for Arabic grammar have grammatical mistakes, and if you find something in Quran that someone say it is grammatically incorrect, then he doesn’t understand Arabic grammar, or maybe he needs someone to explain to him what is Arabic grammar
after all this GREAT pretty stupid site is listing the difference between Quran and the bible, for me as a Muslim the bible that you have, have been changed sooo many freaking times, it is only natural that some of it was changed, miss interpreted, or omitted and it does make more since that quran would not match it
The Jews were also commanded not to commit such a terrible act. (See Deuteronomy 4:2) how great is that , the earliest was on the 4th century , 400 years after Jesus ? and you says it is the original ? and unchanged give me a brake. how do they match ? are you out of your mind ? maybe have similar parts, but there is no way they do match < simply because you have sooo many different versions of the bible they all differ from one another, yet after that everyone claim they still match . I don’t get it , and I don’t really care for it because I already know whatever bible you have in your hand right now, is not the SAME bible God sent to us,
as for those errors the article have mentioned, they are not mistakes, unless you look at them with the mind of an idiot how doesn’t even want to think.
CAN GOD CONTRADICT HIMSELF? Many stories of the Bible that have been recorded in the Quran were misquoted and are contradictory to the Bible. Here are a few: examples:
who needs those examples, the more examples you give me , the better I understand how corrupt the bible is, , and why would a Muslim care about the story in the bible if Quran have set the record straight for us ?
all those errors, ? what errors let me wast some of my presue time explaining to you and idiots who would believe in such bogus claim what errors
first , the website just brings verses from quran , withot even pointing to what we should investigate as a possible error and bringing Geographical , historical, ethical, and even scientifically errors , lets go through those so called error again and see who is dumb and who is even DUMBER
The Earth is stationary. 31:10 He created the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; He set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and He scattered through it beasts of all kinds. We send down rain from the sky, and produce on the earth every kind of noble creature, in pairs. what part of this you didn’t understand , what part you say is not correct ? although the verse didn’t say the earth is stationary, but tell me for gi sakes, when you look around you, do you see the mountains move , or the earth shake , or you see that everything around you is settels and not moving , dont you know that a mountain that is 1 kilometer high is rooted down in the earth crust as deep as 7 kilometers, and this is a sintific fact and it is believed to actually make the earth movement beneath us much less and thus making everything to us stationary, and even the movement in the earth crust when it does happen, it happens over thousands and thousands of years, for your life span, when you ware born , mount Everest will remain in its position till you die,
The Sun sets in a spring does it need a genius to understand that to his point of view the sun was setting in this spring of murky water ? when you stand on the beach , you will find that the sun rizes from the water, or sets in the water !!!! Duuh near this spring of murky water Zul-qarnen found those people DUUUHHH
Historical Errors : Pharaoh built the tower of Babel in Egypt where did this verse said anything about a tower of Babel, the verse said pharaoh wanted to build a monument, out of clay please show me where is Babel tower mentioned in the verse,
Alexander the Great was a prophet WHAT the heck, who is this Alexander you are talking about, and where does the name Alexander ever mentioned in Quran, Quran is talking about zul-qarnen, the interpretation in this site , just decide to add the name of Alexander in the meddle , this Alexander was only a blood thirsty worrier kid who have no intention but enlarging his kingdom, a pagan who even forced Egyptians to name his a GOD, of course Quran is not talking about this Alexander of yours, and if it was, why didn’t it bring up his name just like it mentioned the name of another 25 prophets ?
Legalizing perjury the verse quoted does not legalize perjury, it only telling us that Allah judges us based on our intentions, and if you dig more you will find out that we get rewarded for good intentions, even if we didn’t get the chance to actually do the good deeds, and if we had evil thoughts or intentions, we only be accounted for them IF we actually ware able to DO it.
grrrr, this is soo eazy, it is a waste of time trying to show you how dumb and stupid and ignorant this site is , but I think you got the point give me something much more challenging , and don’t come up with sleezy home made websites like the one you sent us
يريدون ان يطفئو نور اللة بافواههم
Posts: 785 | From: Cairo, Egypt | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Originally posted by loveforever: I love Muslims and want them to know who is Jeus.GBU
But you see Loveforever, we do believe in Jesus, too. Just the same as you do. We only differ in respect to the nature of the holy trinity. While chritians think of them as one , we think of them as 3 separate beings.... but we share the same GOd. If we call him Allah, that is just because the word Allah is the Arabic equivalent for God; or more accurately, "The God" meaning that there is no other. And we believe in Jesus but we do not worship Jesus...we dont even worship Mohammad but they both have the same standing to us, same as Moses. God's mightiest prophets.
I, as a Muslim, wish that others could just focus on the similarities and let us work out the differences together in the next world when we have more certain information about them.
Posts: 670 | From: alex living in leeds, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Undercover: So would it be fair to say to Ayisha and Dalia, to not ask any questions because their hearts are not open and ready enough to accept that women are inferior to men? That they first will have to prepare their hearts for this fact in order to ask further questions?
When to ask , and when to delay your question
There is a common logic when you ask questions, specially when you ask about things that is based on something else You can ask someone what is the capital of the USA, then ask what is the president of Mixico, But when you ask something like why, it is a different thing, the way question is not as simple as the WHAT question, If your kid asked you at the tender age of 3 or 4 years old how babies are made, there is no way you will start explaining the sexual production systems to this young kid, You would either try to give him or her a very simple answer, the answer could be, like when mama marries daddy, babies are born, you could explain it without marriage, like , when mama and daddy Live together babies are born, Your kid could get smart and tell you, ok me and mama live together, why doesn’t mama have my baby?? What would you tell your kid then ? Me and my sister live together why doesn’t she have my baby ? Then you will explain to him that mama and daddy have to live together and be in love with each other Then he will tell you, I love my sister, why doesn’t she have my baby ? Then you will tell him when they kiss each other, then he would say I kiss mom, and I kiss my sister, The kid would keep asking and asking because all the answered you gave him did not explain to him why doesn’t he have babies of his own At one point you would have to give him a lesson in sex, and human anatomy, and also explain to him that he still have to wait till his body is mature enough Physically and emotionally to have his own babies, and of course you and everyone knows that a 3, 4 , or even 6 years old may not have the mental capacity to understand things like that, and the most responsible thing you would tell your kid is, I will tell you when you grow up, ( when you are more capable or understanding the answer), if your kid is solo persistent you could either ignore the question ( to protect him) or you could show him a pornographic movie so hw would understand how babies are made , or better, invite the baby to watch mama and baba make another baby, It is your choice how you deal with such questions
The same thing when it comes to religion, certain things is not easy to understand unless you build the foundation that would make it easy to comprehend.
And about Aisha and Dalia, they can ask anything they want, at any time, but if they understood Quran and that its is not advised to asking questions out of place or before it is time to get an answer, Someone who is new to Islam or still learning about it should not be concerned about something like Oral sex and is it acceptable or not, when they are still trying to understand the basics of the man/woman relation in Islam , they would be consuming there effort in things that would not help them , and the result could be confusion
If someone came and asks me about Islam and told me he makes his living out of the interest his bank pays him for his money, and then asks about the lawfulness of banking interest, the answer may drive him away from Islam, and prevent him from understanding a lot of things, that may even result of him not even asking about banking interest, simply because by the time he feels the need to ask about it, he would have already found the real answer
Those examples I just came up with from our day to day lives, on how could it be bad to ask about something , because the timing isn’t good for the question,
But Quran went much further and explained to us how ASKING too many questions harmed those who asked, and the evidence is in Surah albaqarah, when it told us about the Jews and who they asked Prophet Moses to help them find out who committed a certain crime, prophet mosses simply asked them to bring him a cow , they didn’t like the answer, and they asked , what kind of a cow, Then he gave more details, then they didn’t like the answer, and asked for more detail, and more and more and more, till they reached the point that there is only one cow that matches what prophet mosses asked for, and they found it much harder to comply, even much more expensive, if they have complied the first time they ware told, they could have just got the Cow he asked for, and then any cow would have worked just find, The more details they asked for, the more liability they got, The same logic could be applied, in your obligations to God according to your own understanding of your faith Because God judges us according to our mental capacity, the more indebt we understand make us more obligated to comply with what we understood We need to ask, we ned to know, but still we shouldn’t be hard on ourselves and jump from understanding why we need to pray and get ourselves into the details of how to distribute the charity, and who deserve a chair and who doesn’t, if you already know that you need to pay zakah, do it, don’t complicate things for yourself, after you have already reached the level of doing everything like praying fasting, hag, zakah, start asking for more detail, at this point you would be asking , how can I do better and how can I perfect my practice
Posts: 785 | From: Cairo, Egypt | Registered: Aug 2004
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I think if that statistic was true, love, there wouldnt be any Muslims left for you to convert by now! I'm not saying people dont convert; they do,occasionally but they're nowhere near that number. People convert in the other direction, too... and some convert to other religions or to atheism.... there's nothing inherent in any religion that makes it the one and only diurection people convert into....we all follow that thing we carry on our shoulders.
-------------------- Noha Posts: 670 | From: alex living in leeds, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by loveforever: I love Muslims and want them to know who is Jeus.GBU
But you see Loveforever, we do believe in Jesus, too. Just the same as you do. We only differ in respect to the nature of the holy trinity. While chritians think of them as one , we think of them as 3 separate beings.... but we share the same GOd. If we call him Allah, that is just because the word Allah is the Arabic equivalent for God; or more accurately, "The God" meaning that there is no other. And we believe in Jesus but we do not worship Jesus...we dont even worship Mohammad but they both have the same standing to us, same as Moses. God's mightiest prophets.
I, as a Muslim, wish that others could just focus on the similarities and let us work out the differences together in the next world when we have more certain information about them.
quote:Originally posted by Undercover: "O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith." (Surah 5:101-102).
"The prophet was asked about things which he did not like, and when the questioner insisted, the Prophet got angry. (Bukhari. vol. 1, no. 92)
The Prophet got angry and his cheeks or his face became red. (Bukhari vol. 1, no. 91)
"Allah has hated you...[for] asking too many questions." (Bukhari vol. 2, no. 555; and vol. 3, no. 591.
"The Holy Prophet himself forbade people to ask questions ...so do not try to probe into such things." (The Meaning of the Qur'an, Maududi, vol. III, pgs. 76-77)
sorry, I have no time to answer this question. I hope I could answer you. You can send a question to this site http://islamqa.com Good Luck Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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that's so great welsafty i like your way but hey this people don't know more about BOKHARY what's mean and what HOLY KORAAN mean so yes in sourat al maedaa there are aya say that : hey people don't try to ask on things if you think about it (as your thinking)make you not right in thinking but if you patent and wait when god send more KORAAN explaining every points , but you have to know something that:the moses's people was asking about more stuff for just argue with them religion but in our one you didn't have to think with your brain ? when you have prophet with you and the god send KORAAN!! how that's possible you have KORAAN still coming and you want to think and ask ? but this aya talk about kind of questions ? like the faith like knoleage of good stuff like that but why you didn't talk about this aya(2) which says: how come you ask your prophet like moses people ask him before your prophet. and say they convert the fiath with not fiath? see , but now after the god tell his prophet this aya in (3) soura: today i compelet your religion and bless on you my glory and like islam for you as religion . after this aya you can ask what you want , you get that ? but what's the differents between KORAAN and AL BOKHARY? it's big differents ? maybe have from me 30 month at least to explain that but for the shortcut : KORAAN is the god's words and al bokhary is the prophet words but both from the GOD so they in same sourse but they are different type , but when you say aya , you have to know why the god send this aya for so there is reasons for that in our religion we called it connection aya from situation so you have to know this first but in hadith in al bokhary it's have same situation of something happen so when you said the prophet have a red face it's reaction from did't like this situation to be in islam coz the KORAAN didn't finish yet and don't ask about it now in same time it's mean about how much this prophet was so great behav more than you think the god says: you(muhammed)is great nobility of character , so he didn't the god get mad from the person so the prophet seems like this coz the prophit have rear angry red face so what about he did this in one like this!!! and he says too(prophet): from reasons what destroy the people before you that more asking them question for their messanger so yes always hadyth agree with KORAAN but who is al BOKHARY?? he is a guy from syrain but he is the first one after several years try to collected most (corrects) words of the prophet , so it's not easy like you think he put condiations for that like harder more than you think so believe about one thing the islam it's the religion the god want from all people on this EARTH!!
Posts: 88 | From: cairo | Registered: Feb 2007
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I really feel guilty for not adding my contribution to the main question in this thread.... If anybody's interested, there's my understanding of it:
Many of the quran's verses were revealed at times in response to certain incidents occuring among Mohammad's (PBUH) people. There are three basic situations where the warning against asking many questions applies: First, it was directed at people who came to the prophet asking him such silly questions, you wont even believe it.... History has it that a man came asking the prophet about the Islamic ruling regarding a man who carries a sac of ...whatyacallit...wind (meaning trumps, flatulence)....You see how stupid. Now, contrary to your beliefs, Mohammad usually tried to be nice to his people and found it difficult to say "bugger off , you idiot!"
Another situation which this warning refers to is the insistence of some people to keep asking for rulings on this and that imagining all sorts of variation of circumstances and trying to get rulings for them....which would increase the burden on them for obeying... so the verses are actually telling them to be kind to themselves and dont ask because in effect, if they dont know about something they're not liable for it. It's actually trying to give them some leeway unlike what you think.
Another incident in the same context was on the morning of a battle day, the prophet named the man who would lead the army and named two people who would lead if the first was killed in battle. A Jewish man resident in Medina at the time, who was present at the nomination addressed him saying, "According to my religion,I know that prophets dont speak in vain and if a prophet names one person, a second and a third to replace each other in order, it means that they will most definitely be killed in battle even if you name 99 of them...is that not in your religion, too?" The prophet did not reply to this question but the Jew was so sure of his interpretation of the situation (and he was actually right) that he ran to one of the men asking for payment of an old debt. When the man asked him to wait till after the battle, the Jew said, "Do you still think you'll be coming back? you wont be here after the battle". Of course, people wanted to know....and it would have not been good for them to know, would it? These are the three situations in which asking too many questions is not encouraged.
On the other hand, asking questions in order to seek knowledge is most positively encouraged by Islam. There are many proofs of this in Quran and hadith. I would pull them out for you....but I am sure that you are capable of finding them yourself just like you find the other things you keep pointing out as negatives.
-------------------- Noha Posts: 670 | From: alex living in leeds, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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The problem with fatwas and interpretations generally is the grandiose language they use and the way they try to be accurate and comprehensive which makes them sound scientifically vague. Besides, of course, their insistence on using Arabic words within their text as if they cant find an English equivalent or even explanation..... The result is people who are genuinely seeking the truth find it difficult to find.It would help if they adopt a simpler better down to earth approach instead of their eternal gobbledygook.
Add to this that there are some really mad hatters out there pretending to be ISLAMIC SCHOLARS and presenting a very distorted version of Islam.
-------------------- Noha Posts: 670 | From: alex living in leeds, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by homing pigeon: First, it was directed at people who came to the prophet asking him such silly questions, you wont even believe it.... History has it that a man came asking the prophet about the Islamic ruling regarding a man who carries a sac of ...whatyacallit...wind (meaning trumps, flatulence)....You see how stupid. Now, contrary to your beliefs, Mohammad usually tried to be nice to his people and found it difficult to say "bugger off , you idiot!"
Another situation which this warning refers to is the insistence of some people to keep asking for rulings on this and that imagining all sorts of variation of circumstances and trying to get rulings for them....which would increase the burden on them for obeying... so the verses are actually telling them to be kind to themselves and dont ask because in effect, if they dont know about something they're not liable for it. It's actually trying to give them some leeway unlike what you think.
Like all the things hadith cover?
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
That's not a fair remark, Ayisha....It cant be that everything in hadith is superfluous, although a few things might qualify....I would ask you, though to read my post about Bokhari. I cant vouch for the truth of everything in his book and neither can Imam Bokhari himself if you read his introduction and what I mean by truth here is the claim that all that's inm Bokhari has been definitely said by Mohammad (PBUH).
Also, you have to see that much of what Mohammad said to his friends and followers was in daily talk..... A man's got to talk, right? You cant take everything that a man says in daily talk as law. The quran is the law. But Mohammad's talk was in many cases instruction, advice, clarification... People who knew him and lived with him wanted to talk about him to those who never met him and 300 years later a man decides to collect those titbits..........How much of it can you be sure of?
Imam Bokhari, therefore devised a method to sift through those bits and pieces. He collected thousands of those tales but he only incuded in his sahih, the ones he managed to pass through his systematic method of teller-vetting....he says I could still be wrong.............why cant we see this? what he di with the rest; he put them in another book. There are people nowadays who call themselves scholars who try to pass them as definitive.... so watch you dont get conned.
-------------------- Noha Posts: 670 | From: alex living in leeds, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Homing, thats exactly my point. We get many people on here who will say to be a Muslim you have to follow Quran and sunnah, which I totally agree with, but then they will say that sunnah is hadith and one should follow all hadith as we do Quran, and that they are as protected by Allah as Quran, which I do not agree with. These are the same people who will shout and scream and call me a Quranist, those same people do not even recognize a sahih hadith when one is quoted and will, without even thinking or looking, say its weak and people who follow that are ignorant.
I have read Bukhari and Muslim. I know Bukhari did some amazing works in his collections, but I will take most of them them with a pinch of salt and I will follow Quran and sunnah, because to ME, sunnah is the WAY Muhammed (pbuh) dealt with people and how he conducted business and how he was in life, NOT which foot entered the bathroom first or how long a beard should be. The hadith that show the sunnah (way) will match Quran 100%, the sunnah is also shown in Quran.
The fact that these hadith were not collected until 300 years after the death of the prophet (pbuh) makes it clear to me that many will not be as they actually were at the time, which is why we get conflicting ones. people do not manage to tell stories (lets call the hadith passed down stories) with exactly the same wording or even meaning, for 300 years.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
"because to ME, sunnah is the WAY Muhammed (pbuh) dealt with people and how he conducted business and how he was in life"
But, where can you learn about the sunna of Muhammad, if not from Bukhari? How do you know how Muhammad dealt with people? The Quran is allegedly the word of God and not a collection of the examples of Muhammad. You cannot make any claim about Muhammad that is not in the Quran.
Posts: 3188 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Undercover: "because to ME, sunnah is the WAY Muhammed (pbuh) dealt with people and how he conducted business and how he was in life"
But, where can you learn about the sunna of Muhammad, if not from Bukhari? How do you know how Muhammad dealt with people?
It seems you either skimmed my post or missed this part:
"The hadith that show the sunnah (way) will match Quran 100%, the sunnah is also shown in Quran."
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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That's not always possible. To give you an example, there is a hadith from Bukhari where monkeys practice Sharia.
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 5, Book 58, Number 188: Narrated 'Amr bin Maimun:
During the pre-lslamic period of ignorance I saw a she-monkey surrounded by a number of monkeys. They were all stoning it, because it had committed illegal sexual intercourse. I too, stoned it along with them.
But I can show you a similar verse in the Quran where Jews are transformed into apes and Jews.
Can we say that the 1st Hadith is a fabrication because it contradicts the commonsense? How can we do that when there are similar verses in the Quran that also contradict common sense?
Posts: 3188 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Homing, thats exactly my point. We get many people on here who will say to be a Muslim you have to follow Quran and sunnah, which I totally agree with, but then they will say that sunnah is hadith and one should follow all hadith as we do Quran, and that they are as protected by Allah as Quran, which I do not agree with. These are the same people who will shout and scream and call me a Quranist.
I think I know who these people are, Ayisha (collectively, not personally) and I do believe that they are more dangerous for Islam than any external source because they are rotting it from inside.
Posts: 670 | From: alex living in leeds, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by homing pigeon: I think I know who these people are, Ayisha (collectively, not personally) and I do believe that they are more dangerous for Islam than any external source because they are rotting it from inside.
I absolutely agree with that!!!
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Undercover, please....cant you see how the content of this hadith can never be real? How did the blessed narrator know what the she monkey was being stoned for? Does he speak Gorrilla? Is he familiar with this particular monkey and her legal wedded husband? Do monkeys have mating seasons and multiple partners like all other animals?
Besides, you are mixing things up. The content of the alleged hadith are nothing to do with the verse in the quran you are referring to....Can you quote that verse please?
OK, I'll start at the beginning....bear with me a little.
For every hadith in Bukhari or any other sunna book, there is a chain of narrators that leads back right to the prophet....They're pages long these chains (called sanad in Arabic). These chains represent who heard it from who heard from who heard it from who....and so on. Also, for every hadith, there is a "content" bit which is what exactly the hadith says called the maten in Arabic.
Now what Bokhari and Muslim did is that they investigated how likely each link in the chain to be a trustworthy truth telling person. If they found discrepancies as for example, a narrator in the chain who should have been out of town when the event happened, that narrator would be disqualified and the hadith dropped in accuracy level (so it would not be sahih if you knwo what that means). Often they disqualified people from narrating altogether if a person was known to be forgetful or untrustworthy.
The big hitch with the system is that it did not include any method for ascertaining the content bit (the maten) The result was that often the chain would look very strong and the content would be rubbish.But for the sake of uniformity and systematic methodology necessary to scientists/researchers which Bukhari and Muslim were, they had to include all the hadiths that passed through their test system.They relied on the commonsense of the readers to evaluate things for what they are , I guess. Just like today's researchers do when they report research results that may look conflicting. They leave you to make your mind up about it and give their own view of the interpretation for your information only.
More modern hadith scholars have introduced an extra rule for ascertaining truths of hadiths which involved looking at the maten of the hadith for anything not logic or anything that contradicts quran or more definitive sources of sunna (called sunna motawatera; ie what the prophet was seen repeatedly to do by many people).
Here comes the second problem. Some Muslim groups known with names like salafis or ahl alsunna walgama'a have made it their business to take everything in Bukhari and Muslim to be as sacrosanct as the quran. Not only that, but their leaders have taken it upon themselves to review the hadiths that have been rejected by Bukhari and Muslim and pronounce them as true. To mention one of them Sheikh Alalbany who rewrote a hadith book called sahih algame'e that adds some couple hundred or so hadiths to the sahih list............in my view, that is absolute bullshit. This view, I assure you is shared by many high profile Muslim figures as sheikh Alkaradawy, Imam Alghazaly who wrote a whole book about this issue called "The sunna between the hadith people and the jurisdiction people". In Arabic'"alsunna bayn ahl alfiqh wa ahl alhadeeth".
However, if they call us quranis which we are not, we can always argue that we believe in the sunna that is beyond doubt like the way we pray, for example; the method of prayer was never in the quran but Mohammad was seen to do exactly this in that way and that way five times a day for twenty three years by countless numbers of people....That is something there can be no doubt about.
I hope you got the message about sunna now
-------------------- Noha Posts: 670 | From: alex living in leeds, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
It's obvious that you havent read that post, undercover! sorry for it being this long...the idea is Mohammad did not answer the Jew's question because it was one of those better not asked.
-------------------- Noha Posts: 670 | From: alex living in leeds, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
One more thing, I'd like to point out. This is just a friendly discussion and I'm not on a mission to change anybody's views so I'm not viewing it as an identity struggle
-------------------- Noha Posts: 670 | From: alex living in leeds, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
"However, if they call us quranis which we are not, we can always argue that we believe in the sunna that is beyond doubt like the way we pray, for example; the method of prayer was never in the quran but Mohammad was seen to do exactly this in that way and that way five times a day for twenty three years by countless numbers of people....That is something there can be no doubt about."
The sunna about veiling women, harsh Sharia punishments, polygamy etc are also beyond doubt homing pigeon, yet you reject them. I can show not one but numerous hadiths.
Posts: 3188 | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
I dont reject them...I looked into them deeply and have an understanding and an interpretation for the how when and why of each of them. I know when the license to do this is used.Polygamy,for example is not an open license much as some Muslim men would like to believe so. Veiling as in covering the face is not supported in the Quran and there is no proof that it is required, unlike hijab. But there again, there's a lot of issues to be viewed and sides to be discussed about the how and why. Really things cant be accepted or rejected that simply.
-------------------- Noha Posts: 670 | From: alex living in leeds, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Undercover, please....cant you see how the content of this hadith can never be real? How did the blessed narrator know what the she monkey was being stoned for? Does he speak Gorrilla? Is he familiar with this particular monkey and her legal wedded husband? Do monkeys have mating seasons and multiple partners like all other animals?
ROFL.
I thought it was bizarre enough that someone would use this hadith at all as a justification for stoning without even pondering the questions you just asked. But they are very valid and just go to show how absurd this hadith is.
But I guess they had to come up with something to justify stoning after the goat had eaten the relevant verse. Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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