From my perspective God is a spirit, the spirit of love, the opposite is the spirit of evil.
then there are 2 Gods, good and evil?? God the Creator created EVERYTHING, both good AND evil
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
Change what quick? What stupidness are you talking about now? You defend that Child molester "Prophet" of yours you made remarks about Child abuse and made light of it. Yes I do think you are what you call others(Nutter) your a joke. And you run and hide when your boy TO shavnas was outed as a fool. Face the Facts girl, you were completely wrong about Muhammad and I will make sure to remind you of that every time you post.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Indeed God knew Lucifer would betray him and become the Devil.
Alarm bells should be ringing all over the place by now. Then again maybe not.
If you cling to the apologetics aspect then you have to somehow continue to attempt to rebutt the onslaught of logic directed at this.
quote:God gave everyone a free will. If he hadn't created Lucifer then we wouldn't know about free will.
...and surely you wouldn't need to have it either considering this ''predicament'' (really?) humanity is in today. I could have done better.
quote:''Love is freely given and if we didn't have a choice then it wouldn't be given freely.''
...then there would be no need to give love freely because everyone would have the correct amount in their possession. No competition to be had at all. Just the right stuff.
quote:''Perhaps being simply created as divine and perfect is not enough.''
Then divinity isn't something to be aspired to. You might want to reconsider this one.
Are you implying... or inferring, being perfect isn't enough? You do know you are projecting here. Or you should be aware of it. If God did intend this 'perfect' couple to be created, and by all available logic it wasn't a perfect creation, then why is it you think he changed his mind on holding back in the perfection department...to give room for the apologists to speak on his lack of perfection in His creation?
His lack of perfection can be explained away in two logical ways. He did it to see how philosophers, amateur (me) and professional, would grapple with this later on down the road, or he did the best he could in the creation. If the former then it says a lot about a psychological position. The latter makes much more sense from my perspective because the former conjures up all all kinds of...well, apologies. Blasphemy? No, logic.
quote:It is the journey, the learning, the gradual trudge to betterment that is important?
Looks like you are easing up from your position in being an apologist. It has already been set in stone how one will react, good or bad. You have no free will in this matter. Either way you react it has been determined.
quote:Some would say a person cannot appreciate the light without the dark.
Some will say dark is good as opposed to light being good. ''Light'' has dispensed much aggravation on this planet. Since dark captures light and keeps it confined and light has brought about much agrievance then dark must be better.
quote:If you have never known suffering how can you appreciate joy?
How is it possible to know one without the other? Rhetorical comment designed to push the argument further away from logic.
quote:God perhaps knew all the alternative events and choices that could have made and all the alternative events that could have happened.
I like to think He didn't know the alternatives. To know the alternatives and not instill a self-correcting mechanism in the beginning doesn't follow logic; it is illogical. If He did know then pschology rears its head again.
quote:God forgave Adam and Eve and gave them an opportunity to mend their ways
Kicking them out of ''paradise'' is a way of forgiving? Simply stating they did wrong was enough to cast them out? They didn't kill anyone while they were curious I take it?
quote:because He loved them and knew they were weak.
Logic says He didn't know they were weak, from my point of view of course because I'm not an apologist. Yet Unfinishedthought has temporarily abandoned his rhetoric because he says He *knew* they were weak thereby dismantling his apologetic stance and supporting mine and Akoben's which is God isn't omnipotent and omniscient.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Grumman: I like to think He didn't know the alternatives. To know the alternatives and not instill a self-correcting mechanism in the beginning doesn't follow logic; it is illogical. If He did know then pschology rears its head again.[/QB]
Jesus is the self-correcting mechanism.
The Bible tells us that God does know the end from the beginning and that God did go ahead with creating mankind, even though he knew that man would disobey. To this must be added the fact that before creation God made provision for the remedy, in the Lamb (i.e. God’s Son, the Lord Jesus Christ) that in the mind of God ‘was slain before the creation of the world’. So we must never divorce the two—in the mind of God before He began Creation, there was both the fact of man’s rebellion and the Cross. Knowing that both would happen, God still went ahead. This is the clear teaching of the Bible.
quote:Originally posted by Grumman: ''Love is freely given and if we didn't have a choice then it wouldn't be given freely.''
...then there would be no need to give love freely because everyone would have the correct amount in their possession. No competition to be had at all. Just the right stuff.[/QUOTE]
Is this really free will? If God had created us like robots, with no choice but to do what is right and good, we would not have been able to truly love Him, since we would have had no choice. Willing love is what people can do because of the way God made us. Servile obedience is what a robot does. A robot can be programmed to obey; it cannot be programmed to love. God could have gone either way when he created man. He chose to create people rather than robots.
Yes, God could have eliminated all evil in the design of His universe. However, such a universe would have been unable to accomplish the main purpose for which God created the universe in the first place - to allow free will choice by human beings. The only way to eliminate all evil is to actually restrict the functioning of the human mind - in other words, restrict free will.
Although it solves the problem of evil, it destroys the primary reason why God created the universe in the first place - to allow free will beings the choice of loving or rejecting Him. God finds such a "solution" unacceptable (Why create a universe in which its primary purpose is unattainable?). However, this kind of evil-free universe does exist for those who want it and choose it in this universe. It is called heaven.
The laws of physics of our universe actually do prevent large amounts of evil that could have been committed by human beings had those laws been different. For example, extending human life spans to hundreds or thousands of years would have resulted in evil people living longer and having more time to devise more evil schemes to perpetrate on their fellow human beings. Additionally, giving human beings the power to easily travel throughout the universe and manipulate it at will would have resulted in unimaginable evil. When somebody got angry at somebody else, they could just hurl another star into that person's planet to destroy it. So God has created a universe in which, for practical purposes, we are restricted to our own solar system, and can't really do anything drastic enough to mess it up. Even a cursory examination of the universe reveals many ways in which God could have allowed humans the ability to commit much more evil. It seems likely that the design of this universe is optimal for the restriction of most evil, while still allowing free will.
[/QUOTE]Looks like you are easing up from your position in being an apologist. It has already been set in stone how one will react, good or bad. You have no free will in this matter. Either way you react it has been determined.[/QB][/QUOTE]
We essentially make a choice free of God's previous or present interference and yet He knows what we're doing and what we will do.
quote:God forgave Adam and Eve and gave them an opportunity to mend their ways
Kicking them out of ''paradise'' is a way of forgiving? Simply stating they did wrong was enough to cast them out? They didn't kill anyone while they were curious I take it? [/QB][/QUOTE]
When Adam and Eve disobeyed God they bacame aware of good and evil. In Genesis 2 it says that Adam and Eve were both originally naked, "but they were not ashamed." After they ate of the Tree of Knowledge, we are told that "the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked."
Prior to their sin, Adam and Eve knew no evil. They had not internalized an evil inclination. Since the evil did not reside within them, they were "naturally" good. When they ate of the Tree of Knowledge, the evil inclination became a part of them. No longer did they need an external tempter to incite them to sin—now, that tempter resided within their psyches.
One painful effect of the knowledge gained by sin is guilt, and the most common attempt to get rid of it is by denial through shifting the blame to other persons. Adam and Eve did this when God came to them in the garden to confront them with their sin. Adam blamed Eve and ultimately God himself ("The woman you put here with me-she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it," v. 12). Eve blamed the serpent ("The serpent deceived me, and I ate," v. 13). Today people blame their parents (or children), society, the establishment, or whatever-rather than admit their own responsibility and guilt before God and each other.
If Adam & Eve had rejected the serpent's temptation, and had instead chosen to trust and obey God they would have been confirmed as forever free from sin.
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged |
Your showing everyone what kind of person you are. All I need to read is how bad your boy TO Shavnas got schooled. Your lame defence of Muhammad are Over. Keep clinging to your 7 yearold Ayisha.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
Your showing everyone what kind of person you are. All I need to read is how bad your boy TO Shavnas got schooled. Your lame defence of Muhammad are Over. Keep clinging to your 7 yearold Ayisha.
That really is all you can do isn't it? Your favorite debunker of Ayisha's age, just got thrown under the Bus. Don't think I forgot all the evil comments you and your bum buddies were making about me. I will always be here to refute your defense of the undefendable.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
That really is all you can do isn't it? Your favorite debunker of Ayisha's age, just got thrown under the Bus. Don't think I forgot all the evil comments you and your bum buddies were making about me. I will always be here to refute your defense of the undefendable.
Peace
thanks king, I do love my morning 'Christian' messages Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
Bahhahhahahahhahahah Lame Jokes is all your left with. Make sure you learn how to read and learn from whatever Job you have. Don't want to be made a fool simply because you believe everything that TO Shavnas says(Ayisha's Age).
For Ayishas eyes only: Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
You really need to learn more about what you follow if you did not even know the age of one of your faiths main women.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
You really need to learn more about what you follow if you did not even know the age of one of your faiths main women.
you really are nuts arent you little man.
I follow Quran, her age is not in there as its irrelevant. How old was Jesus, Mary when she gave birth, Joseph, John?? Who was Matthew, Mark Luke and John? how old were they and where were tey born?
Dont know??? Why not??
Bye King, off to work now. have a happy day hating people. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I hope people see how much of a Two Face Ayisha is. All that comes out of her mouth is Insults to others. Her bum buddies had a great time taking potshots and spoke all manner of evil on someone they don't know. When she gets refuted twice in one post how does this SBag react she keeps quiet and then tries to play the innocent card and attack my Christianity. As If anyone has to prove anything to someone as mouthy and annoying as her. You are really going to be in for a culture shock girl.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by KING: I hope people see how much of a Two Face Ayisha is. All that comes out of her mouth is Insults to others. Her bum buddies had a great time taking potshots and spoke all manner of evil on someone they don't know. When she gets refuted twice in one post how does this SBag react she keeps quiet and then tries to play the innocent card and attack my Christianity. As If anyone has to prove anything to someone as mouthy and annoying as her. You are really going to be in for a culture shock girl.
Peace
ROFL, cant answer those questions king so back to insults is it?
nothing changes does it little man. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
You follow Quran? Could of fooled me, You were all over the Nuts of TO Shavnas, now that he has been refuted, all you can say is "I Follow Quran" bahhahaahhahahahhahahhahha baahahhahahahahha.
You have been outed as a Joke. All your views are based on lies. You defend a child molestor and you make light of child abuse. There is more things I could call you but I will not lower myself to your hateful ways and just for recap so everyone can see just how Innocent Ayisha is:
I gotta agree with Dzosser here.
King you have insulted from the first post you made here and yet you play the innocent victim. I have NEVER made posts before like I have made recently because I RESPECT Christians and I LOVE ALL the prophets, yet YOU are no Christian King, you are the lowest slime that ever walked this earth. You preach about what Jesus said yet YOU dont follow ANY of his teachings. You are the biggest hypocrite we have ever had on this board, you Shaitan!
Get thee behind me SATAN!
That is Ayisha at her best. I could say some very deep insults about this poster but Blessed by God I don't need to lower my self to her level. At least everyone will see her for what she is.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
You definitely play the innocent card to a tee. You are by far the most pathetic insulter on this forum. I have debated people before but you are a walking Hippocrate. You attack others then feign innocence. You have this part of yourself down to a science. If it was not so sad I would Laugh. EDIT: Ayisha how old are you, Maybe your age has something to do with why you think the way you treat people is acceptable.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just to be accurate here a late reader may not notice the below comment was actually yours, not mine. So in the interest of that accuracy I will post my correction below yours.
Unfinished thought posted:
quote:Originally posted by Grumman: ''Love is freely given and if we didn't have a choice then it wouldn't be given freely.''
I said originally in direct reponse to your comment above, this:
then there would be no need to give love freely because everyone would have the correct amount in their possession. No competition to be had at all. Just the right stuff.
Unfinished thought says:
''Jesus is the self-correcting mechanism''
The, again, you do admit there was an error in the creation process after seeing the logic.
An error-free diety wouldn't have any need to invoke a savior at any point of the game because the ''small'' details wouldn't have been overlooked. And there certainly will have been no need to read modern-day philosophical interpretations like mine.
yet: ''even though he [knew] that man would disobey.''
So you are factually admitting to an already error-filled psychological creation process, that God didn't have all the necessary creation details at his disposure. Actually I've said something similar above somewhere but it bears repeating here.
With this thought in mind what we have here are some deities who may have had in their possesion all the ''correct'' details in a biological/psychological process but unknowingly left the wrong blueprint on the table for this Satan character to peruse and secrete those details away from God's prying eyes so he, Satan, and his buddies could throw a wrench in the upcoming creation process. How else to explain Lucifer hanging around in heaven at that time. He was one of them. Speaking of which there is a passage in Ezekiel I believe that says something to the effect ''iniquity being found in thee''. God is talking about Satan. So does this mean God created Satan? Maybe it doesn't. If God created Satan and later had to factually talk about Satan's iniquity being found then it does say God had nothing to do with Satan's creation process because His perfection wouldn't have allowed it to happen... maybe. But imperfection did in fact rear its head. So now, who's creation process is it. Is there someone else involved besides God and Satan. Don't they have similar attributes.
''Knowing that both would happen [rebellion and creation], God still went ahead. This is the clear teaching of the Bible.''
Already answered above.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
You follow Quran? Could of fooled me, You were all over the Nuts of TO Shavnas, now that he has been refuted, all you can say is "I Follow Quran" bahhahaahhahahahhahahhahha baahahhahahahahha.
[/QB]
you silly little man, I have ALWAYS said I follow Quran, shows how much you read.
Do you know how pathetic you sound? Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by KING: EDIT: Ayisha how old are you, Maybe your age has something to do with why you think the way you treat people is acceptable.
you asking me to answer yet another question without answering any of mine AGAIN King??
I am 90, thats about 85 years older than you act little man, which shows why YOU treat people as you do as your mummy taught you no manners Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote: 1Cr 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one.
1Cr 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
I don't know all of the answers, nor does anyone else. I just believe that the devil was a liar and muderer from the beginning and that God is good.
You might be able to find the meaning to life if you get to the end of The Impossible QuizPosts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Unfinished thought wrote: ''Is this really free will? If God had created us like robots, with no choice but to do what is right and good, we would not have been able to truly love Him, since we would have had no choice.''
Very good point and I hope you will recognize it for what it means. Instilling the error-free process is what it should have been about in the beginning.
''A robot be programmed to obey; it cannot be programmed to love.''
Then you are admitting God doesn't know how to program people to love and obey. Leave the robots out of the equation because any good electrical engineer probably can do that simple task today. The analogy with the robots falls short because of its wiring; no emotional content involved, just real time electricity. Again, it is much easier for me to accept a lack of Deity skills because it relieves God of painful decisions in the creating process.
''God could have gone either way when he created man. He chose to create people rather than robots.''
Given what we have been talking about how can it be known what else God could have done. We don't know that. What we do know is the result.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
''Yes, God could have eliminated all evil in the design of His universe. However, such a universe would have been unable to accomplish the main purpose for which God created the universe in the first place - to allow free will choice by human beings.''
You're establishing a Deity with a conflicted but perfectly understandable personality from the very beginning with the first sentence. I have no issue with that because the God of the Old Testament does in fact make claims as the originator of evil. See Isaiah 45:7 again; King James version.
''The only way to eliminate all evil is to actually restrict the functioning of the human mind - in other words, restrict free will.''
With your universe comments you have effectively determined God is the originator of evil. Further is there any way for you to know in this place you call heaven that some version of free will will still rear its head. Since you say robotic love isn't in God's plan then what do you make of the absence of free will in heaven. Isn't that your denying of robotic love. How much of this free will will have an evil component tacked onto it since God is the originator of it. Is it the same type of free will we have today. I hope not. I'm saying to you free will that we have today has to be eliminated in order to keep this new kingdom error free. Everyone has to be robotic in their thinking so as to not cause dissension in the ranks.
If I'm in heaven and I have something resembling a left over free will component from earth and someone says to me, while I'm relaxing under the apple tree (no, not that one), that it's my turn to wash and wax the chariots and I say no because I did it yesterday then what am I to make of the guy sitting under the next tree doing nothing but twiddling his thumbs all day. So who do I protest to since I'm not a robot. If I am free of this free will then I will have no need to complain will I; I will simply do the right thing.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Grumman: the God of the Old Testament does in fact make claims as the originator of evil. See Isaiah 45:7 again; King James version.
God is not the originator of evil. In many instances in the Old Testament, God related to evil/misfortune in terms of allowing individuals to experience the natural consequences of their sins.
The principle is stated in Proverbs 26:27: "If a man digs a pit, he will fall into it" (NIV)
God is not the originator of evil, but He has accepted responsibility for it in Christ. He is able to use it in the fulfillment of His purpose without being its cause. And He is able to exterminate it from the universe.
One of God's attributes is His absolute Goodness. 'The Goodness of God endureth continually' (Psa 52:1). The goodness of God refers to the perfection of His nature: 'God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all' (1 John 1:5).
'He is originally good, good of Himself, which nothing else is; for all creatures are good only by participation and communication from God. He is essentially good; not only good, but goodness itself: the creature's good is a superadded quality, in God it is His essence. He is infinitely good; The original Saxon meaning of our English word God is 'The Good.'
Then what would Evil be in comparison to God who is all Good? The absence of Good. That is evil- the absence of God. And in the only situation where there can be an absence of good is when people are given true freedom, they are given the ability to choose what God wants, and not what God wants, thus creating evil themselves. Falling away from God.
God sending evil upon man in the form of His taking off the restraint from wicked man that he would destroy a city is judgement, not sin. And that is what God is saying in Isaiah. God establishes peace, and God brings evil by withdrawing that peace He has established. Because He's not obligated to bring man peace. He's not obligated to shine light upon every person. God bound Satan and God can loose him, He's not obligated to keep him bound. So you see, by taking away peace, God creates adversity and trouble as judgment upon the wicked for their unrighteousness. This is not sin or wickedness, it is justice.
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged |
Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version):I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and *create* evil: I the LORD do all these things.
quote: That is evil- the absence of God.
If god is absent in something then he is not omnipresent or omnipotent and this is contrary to Christian teachings.Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Grumman: Further is there any way for you to know in this place you call heaven that some version of free will will still rear its head.
In Heaven
1. The saved will be elevated to a better state of being eternally than they are currently (Rom 8:18, 2 Cor. 4:17). 2. The saved, once glorified, will no longer sin throughout eternity (Rev. 21:4,27).
Man does retain his free will in heaven but loses the capacity to sin. It is our salvation in Christ that allows both to be true.
Paul talks about the "new man" (Eph 4) and tells us "If any man is in Christ he is a new creation, all things have passed away, behold all has become new" (2 Cor. 5:17)(1).
We are indwelt with the Holy Spirit and given a new nature. 2 Peter 1:4 states "For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature". Paul also supports this view, writing "For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man" (Rom 7:22).
One Aspect of this nature is that we will not sin. In both these verses we see that those who are saved are given a nature that is radically different than the fallen nature inherited from Adam and Eve.
John writes, "You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. … No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God" (vv 5-6,9).
Because we have two natures that are at odds with each other, there is an inner struggle that exists in every believer. Romans 7 is dedicated to showing this struggle. However, upon death this nature becomes dominant in the Believer:
Romans 6:4-7:
Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin.
The last verse is key - "he who has died is free from sin." When we're saved and choose to be baptized, we die to ourselves and receive a new nature. This nature is in conflict with our old fleshly nature. When our bodies die, that old nature perishes completely as well, leaving the divine nature alone. The best example of what this divine nature is like can be found in Jesus himself. In the above passage Paul writes, "We shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection." John 3:2, "We know that, when he appears, we shall be like Him". Jesus was sinless. He fulfilled all of the law and was well pleasing to the father (Matt 3:17). So by partaking in His divine nature, we also become able to resist sin. Christ, even though he didn't sin, had free will.
Now one may ask: why would God allow evil in the world to begin with? Why wouldn't he just create beings who could not sin at the beginning? why God didn't just create heaven as the world and forego the rest?
This may expose one of God's grand purposes in allowing the events of the universe unfold as they did.
Heaven may not be a possible world when you take it in isolation by itself. It may be that the only way in which God could actualize a heaven of free creatures all worshiping Him and not falling into sin would be by having, so to speak, this run-up to it, this advance life during which there is a veil of decision-making in which some people choose for God and some people against God. Otherwise you don't know that heaven is an actualizable world. You have no way of knowing that possibility. when we characterize heaven as a possible world in which everybody freely receives Christ, perhaps we are wrong insofar as that had to be preceded by this actual world, this world of vale of tears and woe in which people are sinful and the like. It may not be feasible for God to actualize heaven in isolation from such an antecedent world.
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version):I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and *create* evil: I the LORD do all these things.[/i]
The word translated evil is the Hebrew word [ra'], meaning something that is "not good." It does not mean evil in the sense that we might think of the word today, but more correctly understood as bad or anything that is "not good" to us.
Jeremiah 24:2
* "One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad."
That Hebrew word translated "bad" is the exact same word [ra'] that is translated as "evil." Yet, the fruit is not from any wickedness, nor is it sin, it is "bad" (evil) only in the sense that it is, not good to eat. Fruit is an inanimate object, and cannot be evil in the sense that we understand evil today. As a practical example, if I were to walk outside my house, trip over the steps and fall, it is a bad [ra'] thing, but it is not because of wickedness, nor is it sin.
The word ra can be defined as, spoiled, bad, adversity, trouble, sinful, misfortune, calamity, natural disasters, or suffering. And the scriptures bear out this truth, consistently:
Proverbs 15:10
* "Correction is grievous (ra) unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die."
Isaiah 45:7 contrasts opposites. Notice the contrast between these things. Darkness is the opposite of light. However, evil is not the opposite of peace. The Opposite of peace is war or adversity. And that is what God is saying. God creates hell, and that is a bad (evil) thing for people, but it is not sin, and it is perfectly consistent with God's Word to create it. God withdraws light, and thus creates darkness, but this is not sin. God takes away peace, and thus creates war, but this is not God sinning. God removes His hand of restraint from man's heart and it is hardened, but this is not God forcing him to sin. For God is "not obligated" to maintain peace, hold back war, or keep man's heart softened. And when we look at the very context of Isaiah chapter 45, it becomes clear that this is what God is saying.
Leviticus 26:25
* "And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy."
This is an example of the opposite of peace, as God sends all these bad or evil things as judgment against these people. It is a bad thing to the people who are under God's judgment, but it is not a sinful act of God. And we can see from the context of Isaiah that this type "evil" is what God is referring to. The opposite of peace and safety. If man disobeys God, He will send an evil upon him. In this case, the evil He sends is wicked man.
Sin is not God's work, it is the work of men who pervert God's righteous work. God sending evil upon man in the form of His taking off the restraint from wicked man that he would destroy a city is judgement, not sin.
When we read in Isaiah that God creates evil, we must understand that the Lord is declaring His sovereignty. He is illustrating that the trouble, afflictions, and adversities [ra'], He sends are the punishments of sin, the judgments which are under His providence. As Job so patiently and humbly stated, shall we think to only receive good from God, and not the bad as well?
Job 2:10
* "But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips."
Evil at the hands of God is not sin, it is bad things which we do not like! God’s judgments, or his withdrawing His hand of protection is how God creates evil or trouble in our lives. The righteous judgment of God is not an unlawful or sinful act, it is exactly what man should expect of a righteous God. Righteous judgments.
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:more correctly understood as bad or anything that is "not good" to us
So "Satan" is good to us?
quote: Evil at the hands of God is not sin, it is bad things which we do not like!
Christian theology 101: sin, evil or evil that is simply "not good" are all **from** god. If they are not then he is not omnipresent or omnipotent and this is contrary to Christian teachings.Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
If god is absent in something then he is not omnipresent or omnipotent and this is contrary to Christian teachings. ------------------------------------------
God the Good is omnipresent. God omnipresent means Good everywhere present. My good is ever-present. Since God is infinite there is no place for anything contrary to God. ALL IS GOOD.
If Good is omnipresent, what become of evil? What happens to the darkness which fills a room when the light is turned on? The darkness does not move out and go somewhere else, it simply does not exist in the presence of light. Darkness is not a reality, it is merely the absence of light. In the same way when the individual thought is centered upon the omnipresence of good, evil thought does not move out and continue to exist elsewhere; it simply becomes nonexistent. Evil has no reality within itself; it can have existence only so long as an individual supports it by his belief in it. Evil, therefore, cannot be real or permanent; its foundation cannot be Truth. Evil can never be a living presence, a creation, or anything to Spirit or God. It is nothing but a belief that “misses the mark,” “falls short of truth.”
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by unfinished thought.: "That is evil- the absence of God."
If god is absent in something then he is not omnipresent or omnipotent and this is contrary to Christian teachings. ------------------------------------------
God the Good is omnipresent. God omnipresent means Good everywhere present. My good is ever-present. Since God is infinite there is no place for anything contrary to God. ALL IS GOOD.
If Good is omnipresent, what become of evil? What happens to the darkness which fills a room when the light is turned on? The darkness does not move out and go somewhere else, it simply does not exist in the presence of light. Darkness is not a reality, it is merely the absence of light. In the same way when the individual thought is centered upon the omnipresence of good, evil thought does not move out and continue to exist elsewhere; it simply becomes nonexistent. Evil has no reality within itself; it can have existence only so long as an individual supports it by his belief in it. Evil, therefore, cannot be real or permanent; its foundation cannot be Truth. Evil can never be a living presence, a creation, or anything to Spirit or God. It is nothing but a belief that “misses the mark,” “falls short of truth.”
You are saying evil does not exist where God is and we know evil does exist, so God is not here therefore not omnipresent.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Here's the paradox: Goodness exists because God desired it; evil exists because God doesn't want it.
If a human wants something, but doesn't actually do anything about it, nothing happens. You may want a piece of cake, but a cake will not materialize unless someone bakes it.
But when you're God, your desires create reality. With God, just wanting something makes it exist. After all, He is all-powerful; if He wants it, what can possibly stop it from being? He wanted a world, so it was. He wanted goodness, so it was.
Now the same applies to God not wanting something: it too becomes reality. If God decides He doesn't want something, then that decision itself makes that thing exist. God's all-powerfulness means that even His not-wanting creates. Evil is what God doesn't want. So it exists.
But evil doesn't exist in the same way that goodness exists. God wants goodness, so its existence is true and everlasting. Evil exists as a negative, something God doesn't want, so its existence is flimsy and temporal. Evil is no more than an undesirable non-entity, a path not to be taken. By doing evil acts, we give evil more credit than it deserves. Our bad choices make evil into a truer existence than it really is.
In the end, evil can't prevail. It is an unwanted ghost, a temporary illusion, a thin facade. Over time evil dissipates, no matter how menacing it may seem. Wicked empires crumble, rotten ideas become exposed, and goodness eventually shines through. That's what God wanted all along, but He leaves it to us to achieve.
The only way to banish the ghost of evil is to turn on the light of good.
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged |
But when you're God, your desires create reality. With God, just wanting something makes it exist. After all, He is all-powerful; if He wants it, what can possibly stop it from being? He wanted a world, so it was. He wanted goodness, so it was.
Now the same applies to God not wanting something: it too becomes reality. If God decides He doesn't want something, then that decision itself makes that thing exist. God's all-powerfulness means that even His not-wanting creates. Evil is what God doesn't want. So it exists.
therefore is created by God.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
Silly little girl, The only stupid reason why you now say you follow only Quran is because your boy TO Shavnas was refuted. Now you have NOTHING to defend the age of Ayisha. In your small brain you even thought that Ayisha was 7. That is why it was easy to say you were refuted twice in one post. You are such a sad case that it's not even funny. Your just a Joke now that you can't defend the Age of Ayisha. Word of Advice next time try and learn how to treat others and you would not look so stupid.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
Silly little girl, The only stupid reason why you now say you follow only Quran is because your boy TO Shavnas was refuted. Now you have NOTHING to defend the age of Ayisha. In your small brain you even thought that Ayisha was 7. That is why it was easy to say you were refuted twice in one post. You are such a sad case that it's not even funny. Your just a Joke now that you can't defend the Age of Ayisha. Word of Advice next time try and learn how to treat others and you would not look so stupid.
Peace
silly little man everyone on here knows I follow Quran only. And if I thought Ayisha was 7 I wouldnt have posted the article saying she wasnt would I, silly boy? YOU defended the age of Ayisha as being 6 and have continued to defend it, I have been telling you she was much older but you are too stupid to comprehend what you skim over. If it fits your agenda more to think of her as 6 then go ahead, we have seen your perverted mind at work anyway.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
You're a sad Joke. You don't even remember what you post. Is this Me or YOU:
No king, stick to what is written and not whats in your fantasy
EVIDENCE #2: The Betrothal According to Tabari (also according to Hisham ibn ‘Urwah , Ibn Hunbal and Ibn Sad), Ayesha was betrothed at seven years of age and began to cohabit with the Prophet at the age of nine years.
My perverted mind? Who is the one that has absolutly no proof Ayisha was older, your one source has been debunked TO Shavnas, without that what do you have to prove Ayisha was Older then whats written in the Hadiths. It's because of the way you treat others why I will always be here to remind you of your failures.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
You're a sad Joke. You don't even remember what you post. Is this Me or YOU:
No king, stick to what is written and not whats in your fantasy
EVIDENCE #2: The Betrothal According to Tabari (also according to Hisham ibn ‘Urwah , Ibn Hunbal and Ibn Sad), Ayesha was betrothed at seven years of age and began to cohabit with the Prophet at the age of nine years.
My perverted mind? Who is the one that has absolutly no proof Ayisha was older, your one source has been debunked TO Shavnas, without that what do you have to prove Ayisha was Older then whats written in the Hadiths. It's because of the way you treat others why I will always be here to remind you of your failures.
Peace
king, I will say this in simple steps for you ok?
YOU keep saying she was 6
Some hadith say she was 7
T.O. shows that the hadith cannot be trusted and shows why
YOU insist YOU and YOUR friends have refuted that
YOU want to continue to believe she was 6
I have not said she was any age
ok?? Now that is plain for ALL to see, except YOU,
Let me make it so even someone as blind as You can see.
You were posting TO Shavnan as if he found the mystery of the Quran. The people who refuted his nonsense, well you can view there website it's open for "ALL" people to see and make up there mind. http://www.formermuslims.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1943
After TO got debunked, you went into Humble, I never Insult others mode. The fact is that You are what you call others
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
Now this is from the Hadiths.
Please post the Hadiths that say she was 7.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Rewind repeat rewind repeat.....
Posts: 3945 | From: ' Res Contr ' Amor non es guirens, lai on sos poders s'atura | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
Only Muhammad. You can continue to think Muhammad was a "Prophet" of your Allah
What a strange thing to say!!
"YOUR ALLAH" is the same God that Christians, jews, and many other religions worship.... just in different ways!
There is only one God.... call him Allah, Jehovah, whatever you want.... it's the same God!!!
No it is not. God in Islam is the same as with jews.But christians do it another way,they say that God has a triple nature,muslims and jews think that it is only one god with only one nature
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
Only Muhammad. You can continue to think Muhammad was a "Prophet" of your Allah
What a strange thing to say!!
"YOUR ALLAH" is the same God that Christians, jews, and many other religions worship.... just in different ways!
There is only one God.... call him Allah, Jehovah, whatever you want.... it's the same God!!!
No it is not. God in Islam is the same as with jews.But christians do it another way,they say that God has a triple nature,muslims and jews think that it is only one god with only one nature
There is only ONE, Christians just believe that Jesus IS that one. Just because they believe something different ABOUT God doesnt mean its a different one
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
Only Muhammad. You can continue to think Muhammad was a "Prophet" of your Allah that is fine, but the insults started with YOU that is a FACT.
Peace
quote:Originally posted by KING: I give respect to muslims and expect the same in return.
Now how does your above post show ANY respect??
You DO NOT respect Muslims belief and you DO NOT respect Muslims or Islam, so please tell me HOW these two statements match up??
I do not respect the Muslim belief either. But unlike you I respect ALL people, regardless of their religious beliefs. I don't call them names, like you do nor do I fly into a tantrum if they don't "respect" my belief that Jesus is God.
THE FREEDOM TO SAY WHATEVER YOU WANT AS LONG AS NOBODY TAKES OFFENCE IS NO FREEDOM AT ALL!
If a group of people believes that it is their God-given duty to murder those who disagree with their belief, to subdue and humiliate people of other religions, to rape (or as they call it, give in “marriage”) girls as young as nine years old, to stone the single mothers or to behead the unbelievers, that belief does not have to be respected. Not all beliefs deserve respect.
In fact, no belief in itself deserves respect. Including the Christian belief! All beliefs must be scrutinized, weighed with facts and, if found wanting, they must be discarded. Beliefs and opinions are not sacred. What is sacred is human life and human rights.
All beliefs are illogical, by definition. Beliefs do not rest on logical proof or material evidence. That is why they are called beliefs. If they did, they would be called facts. Everyone is guilty of believing in some absurdity. Is the belief in God logical? Or is the belief in atheism logical? In fact, neither of these beliefs is logical. In reality, the moment you believe you step into the realm of illogicality.
The key here is tolerance. I do not have to agree with your beliefs nor should you agree with mine, but we must tolerate each other and even each other's irrational beliefs. However, tolerance should not be confused with submission. You should not, indeed must not tolerate my belief if I believe it is my right to kill you or to impose my beliefs on you.
Dear Unfinished thought!! Muslims do not muder or kill others because they oppose them.. This is not true. The problem with you and others who want to know about Islam is that you read quran,which is not a correct move. Quran is very compliacted book than you can ever Imgine,me myself find it soooo difficult to understand. You can not learn about Islam from Quran,because Quran is not Explained like this,You must read Hadeeth ,and you will not understand hadeeth as well so You have to read books that explains both!!! I know these verse is in Quran"kill those who do not beleive..." but this verse is not explained like this or we should have killed the chinese and the japanese!
And as a responce to your question if muslim kill the unbeleivers,her is the answer
There are a complete section in Quran(Sorat Al-Kaferoon)one verse of it translates as follows
""(Muhammad tell them,they have their religion,and You have your religion,and you will not worship theirs and they will not worship yours,there is no harm in that,you go your way,and I go my way ..)""
So we are not ordered to kill the unbeleivers or any other people.Got it??
It is not like this.
And the other think ,people who do not understand Arabic ,read a translated version which is not the same as the arabic version. If you want to understand Quran,you must read it in Arabic(must) so why we translate it to ither languages??
To make it easier for non Arabic speakers,,to get a fast glimpse not to make serious judgement with the translated version. I know also about the nine year old marriage,you get it wrong too, You are not making in depth research you just keep satisfied with the appearance not with the heart ,the core of the religion, Islam Is not a religion.IT IS A STYLE OF LIVING INCLUDING RELIGION
Look at this wonderful site: it will clarify a lot of points
The problem with you and others who want to know about Islam is that you read quran,which is not a correct move.
You can not learn about Islam from Quran,because Quran is not Explained like this,You must read Hadeeth ,and you will not understand hadeeth as well so You have to read books that explains both!!!
I dont have time right now but you obviously missed the bits in Quran where GOD said this is COMPLETE, EASY and needs NOTHING OTHER. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
What can I say. Muhammad is the one who married a six yearold girl. Now was that Muhammad, or was that me?
Allah IS a Pagan moon God. Muhammad himself said it.
Now if you think these views on Islam warrants you to attack other posters with insults then fine I understand, it's really pathetic, but I understand. You still have not posted me insulting a muslim poster.
Peace
what will you do if I insulted Jesus right now? What will you do if I suspected Mary and insulted her?
And Muhammad did not say that God Is A PAGAN MOON GOD,he did not . Where on earth do you get these wrong information??
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
Read and Learn I will answer your questions after this post:
In his report to trustees, Rankin addressed recent charges from critics that some Southern Baptist missionaries working in the Muslim world believe the Allah of Islam and the God of Christianity are one and the same.
“I can assure you that no missionary believes the concept of God as known, taught and worshiped by Muslims is similar to the Jehovah God as revealed in the Bible,” Rankin said. “I regret this distorted impression based simply on the use of the name Allah for God.
“Every language has its word for God, which is used in translation of Scripture and witnessing within each particular culture and language. The fact is that ‘Allah’ is simply the Arabic word for ‘God,’ just as ‘Dios’ is the word for God in Spanish. It is the word that has been used for centuries in most translations of the Bible in many Muslim cultures, including Bengali, Indonesian and Malay,” Rankin explained.
“It is practically impossible to witness to a Muslim in many native languages and not use the word ‘Allah’ for God without introducing a foreign word and concept. We must not confuse cultural and linguistic bridges of communication with theological concepts.” http://theexpositor.wordpress.com/2007/07/23/god-and-allah/
Peace
Again not the same exact thing. I am an arabic speaking and I know it. God means a lot of things.Allah is A name just like John ,Peter...... God on the other hand is A huge word meaning the one (or thing!!)you worhip.and is not used in Islam. We never use GOD . Allah has 99 names,he is the merciful.most merciful,the creator of universe,.......
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by unfinished thought.: [QB] Does Ayisha really want to say: God is not able to become man? God cannot take on human nature? According to the Bible God is able to do more than many Muslims would want to give him permission for. [QB][QUOTE]
We beleive that ALLAH can do anything.If we think like you ,then GOD could be woman ,could have kids,pregnant,someone could have his face smacked ,have an affair!!!. The idea that GOD can be in A human Body is a disaster.He can have a friend,but why? he does not need. And answer this ,why Your GOD would be in a human and make himself vulnerable to all the above threats. Allah In islam larger and bigger than this. NO one can see him(we can when we die and go to heaven),he is only by himself,every thing is his creature,every thing is worshipping him.
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
The problem with you and others who want to know about Islam is that you read quran,which is not a correct move.
You can not learn about Islam from Quran,because Quran is not Explained like this,You must read Hadeeth ,and you will not understand hadeeth as well so You have to read books that explains both!!!
I dont have time right now but you obviously missed the bits in Quran where GOD said this is COMPLETE, EASY and needs NOTHING OTHER.
I know that verse too.I know Allah said that Quran is complete.but Quran when given to Prophet Muhammad was given in different times along 20 years.Some judgment have changed gradually over year. For example,the verse that talks about people who drink Alcholic drinks. It was not possible to make it prohibted suddenly. Allah had to prohit it gradually.and at certain point when Allah has seen that people are ready to the big move told Allah told Muhmmad this verse"(Bigs,Alcholics,dead Animals are prohibited to you )".the whole thing was a series like an episone. Now someone who does not know history of how quran was given to Prophet Muhammad,will say this is contradition,how Allah in some places prohit it and in some places say it is just a sin? Got me Aysha.?? Another Example: Our pray was never explicitly stated in Quran.Allah said you have to pray but did not tell us how?never mentioned in Quran. so where did we got our prays? From Prohet Muhammad,who told us how,standup,bend down,........so on. To understand Quran,you must read Hadeeth,and trace the history
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: o_g ! What a sudden turn ?? Is that what really concerns you ? How do I know that Muhammad pbuh is the last prophet...erm..well, ahem excuse me, do you know of anyone I should know of that we await ? please enlighten upon arrival date and location.
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.
Is not it interesting to know that Michel.H.Hart who is a christian says that Prophet Muhmmad is the greates man in history!! Why some orientalist who studies Islam to defeat it ended converting to Islam Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ahmad you are a new poster here on religion, just be informed that only you, Ayisha and myself are Muslim and believe in Issa son of Mariam to be a Muslim exactly like Muhammad pbuh, all the rest of posters are Christians or maybe one or more Jews like Unfinished thought, King and of_gold, all Christians are well balanced towards Islam, but the ones I've mentioned by name, have insulted and attacked Islam in every possible way...so please do not pay attention to this axis of evil, they are here to abolish Islam, but have failed repeatedly, they are mentioned in Surat Al Kafirun, as you posted. Take your precautions towards this trinity..
Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic