quote:Originally posted by Rahala: Egyptian society is a paper based society .
When you get married ,you show your ID. When you go to college ,you show your ID. .........................you show your ID. ..........................you show your ID. ..........................you show your ID.
The question was not whether Egypt is a bureaucracy or not. Of course it is, no doubt about that. But that doesn't mean that putting your faith on an ID is necessary or good.
And FYI … in most countries you have to show your ID when getting married, enrolling in college etc. But for none of that it should be of any importance which religion you follow.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala:
The religion is extremely important as Muslims do not let their daughters marry Christian (And I do not care about your opinion it is law :Muslim women do not marry Christian Men )
Exactly. It's all about control. "No compulsion in religion" is an empty phrase here.
And Muslim women do marry Christian men, even in Egypt. In most cases the men officially converts, regardless of whether he believes in Islam or not, just to comply with the laws.
So in fact the laws are supporting hypocrisy. Nice.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala:
It is allowed in Egypt ,Bahee's ,Hindus ....others have the right to leave it blank or have "no religion " in the blank .
The country does not admit that Buddhism ,....etc (other than Islam , Christianity ,Jews) are religions.
So a Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh, Bahá'í is forced to write "no religion" despite the fact that he has a religion? Great! Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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^sorry but the Koran says it load Muslims women can not be married to Kafirs ,and the same book says that Christians and Jews are Kafirs,so it is not about compulsion in religion it is about abiding by the religion .
You really do not get my point ,Buddhism is not a religion ,it is a man made religion ,not a heavenly religion (Even Pope Shenouda says this)
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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^sorry but the Koran says it load Muslims women can not be married to Kafirs ,and the same book says that Christians and Jews are Kafirs
Being married to a kafir is forbidden for Muslims of both genders, so by your logic Muslim men are not allowed to marry Christian or Jewish women either.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala:
,so it is not about compulsion in religion it is about abiding by the religion .
It is not the responsibility of the government how the individual believer choses to practice his / her faith, or whether he choses to practice it at all.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala:
You really do not get my point ,Buddhism is not a religion ,it is a man made religion ,not a heavenly religion (Even Pope Shenouda says this)
Again – it is not the responsibility of the government to determine which religion is man-made or not, and whether people should be allowed to follow it or not. If someone is a Buddhist, then he is a Buddhist, whatever you or the Egyptian government think of Buddhism. So consequently he should be allowed to put his religion on the ID.
And I don't understand why Pope Shenouda's opinion should be any concern of mine. I couldn't care less what that dude says or thinks.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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^well you are right according to my logic Muslim men should not be married to Christian or Jewish Females but guess what Allah say it is allowed that Muslim men marry them but does not say that about Muslim women .
Sorry ,if you are Muslim then do as Muslims do . If you do not like them then leave them, simple as that .
He can choose to practice or not to practice but if he choose to practice then he has to do it just the same as the Muslims do .
Islam is not a faith ,it is a faith and a state .
And you are right Government should say that it is man made or not ,but in a country that Islam rules it has this right .
And you still do not get the point ,they do not call Buddhism a religion ,so they do not put it the religion field .
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Rahala: ^sorry but the Koran says it load Muslims women can not be married to Kafirs ,and the same book says that Christians and Jews are Kafirs,so it is not about compulsion in religion it is about abiding by the religion .
show me one verse that says Christians and Jews are kafir and show me one verse where it specifically states who a muslim woman can or cannot marry.
if there is no compulsion in Islam then you cannot force anyone to abide by any belief.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Rahala: ^well you are right according to my logic Muslim men should not be married to Christian or Jewish Females but guess what Allah say it is allowed that Muslim men marry them but does not say that about Muslim women .
Please don't play stupid. You know just as well as me that it's an established Islamic principle, even among orthodox scholars, that any permission or prohibition in the Qur'an applies to both genders, unless specificially stated otherwise.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: Sorry ,if you are Muslim then do as Muslims do .
There's no compulsion in religion. If you feel that following other people is the way to God, then that's your choice. It is also the right of any other Muslim to practice their faith as he / she thinks is right, regardless of what others chose to do.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: if he choose to practice then he has to do it just the same as the Muslims do .
Nonsense.
Besides, there is no such thing as "the Muslims". Muslims are not a unified mass, there is a huge diversity of convictions, practices, beliefs etc.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: And you still do not get the point ,they do not call Buddhism a religion ,so they do not put it the religion field .
I understood that very well. I just think it's wrong.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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I think it creates a social pressure for the minorities(unfortunately it happens sometimes). So I don't think having the religion stated in the ID is necessary. 'To you be your Way, and to me mine'
I m happy that the new IDs in Turkey won't have that part anymore. I'd rather prefer my blood type on my ID Posts: 2591 | From: **Ex Oriente Lux** | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Rahala: ^sorry but the Koran says it load Muslims women can not be married to Kafirs ,and the same book says that Christians and Jews are Kafirs,so it is not about compulsion in religion it is about abiding by the religion .
show me one verse that says Christians and Jews are kafir and show me one verse where it specifically states who a muslim woman can or cannot marry.
if there is no compulsion in Islam then you cannot force anyone to abide by any belief.
60:10 "a you who believe! When believing women come to you as emigrants, examine them; Allah knows best as to their Faith, then if you ascertain that they are true believers send them not back to the disbelievers. They are not lawful (wives) for the disbelievers nor are the disbelievers lawful (husbands) for them. But give them (the disbelievers) that (amount of money) which they have spent [as their MahrlIl] to them. And there will be no sin on you to marry them if you have paid their Mahr to them. Likewise hold not the disbelieving women as wives, and ask for (the return of) that which you have spent (as Mahr) and let them (the disbelievers) ask back for that which they have spent. That is the Judgement of Allah, He judges between you. And Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise."
5:17
"Surely, in disbelief are they who say that Allah is the Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary) Say (0 Muhammad) :Who then has the least power against Allah, if He were to destroy the Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), his mother, and all those who are on the earth together?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them. He creates what He wills. And Allah is Able to do all things."
5:73
"Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no Ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilah (God -Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall on the disbelievers among them."
I am not going to post the verses about the Jews ,Quran is full of it .Allah is saying that He cursed the jews out of their Kofr (disblieve)
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by 'Shahrazat: I think it creates a social pressure for the minorities(unfortunately it happens sometimes). So I don't think having the religion stated in the ID is necessary. 'To you be your Way, and to me mine'
I m happy that the new IDs in Turkey won't have that part anymore. I'd rather prefer my blood type on my ID
We do not have minorities in Egypt.
Christians are integral part of the Egyptian nation all over the times .
CHRISTIANS are not minority in Egypt.
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: Please don't play stupid. You know just as well as me that it's an established Islamic principle, even among orthodox scholars, that any permission or prohibition in the Qur'an applies to both genders, unless specificially stated otherwise.
5:5
"Made lawful to you this day are At-Tayyibat [all kinds of Haltil (lawful) foods, which Allah has made lawful (meat of slaughtered eatable animals, milk products, fats, vegetables and fruits). The food (slaughtered cattle, eatable animals) of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) is lawful to you and yours is lawful to them. (Lawful to you in marriage) are chaste women from the believers and chaste women from those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) before your time when you have given their due Mahr (bridal-money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage), desiring chastity (i.e. taking them in legal wedlock) not committing illegal sexual intercourse, nor taking them as girlfriends. And whosoever disbelieves in Faith [Le. in the Oneness of Allah and in all the other Articles of Faith i.e. His (Allah's) Angels, His Holy Books, His Messengers, the Day of Resurrection and AI-Qadar (Divine Preordainments)], then fruitless is his work; and in the Hereafter he will be among the losers."
the verse clearly gives a permission to men not to women . This verse were revealed after the verse that say the opposite.
quote: There's no compulsion in religion. If you feel that following other people is the way to God, then that's your choice. It is also the right of any other Muslim to practice their faith as he / she thinks is right, regardless of what others chose to do.
God does not care about they think ,Prophet Muhammad does not care .
Abo baker did not care about them when they refused to pay Al-Zakat and killed them all .
And I do not think that the Egyptians care about them too.
quote: Nonsense.
Besides, there is no such thing as "the Muslims". Muslims are not a unified mass, there is a huge diversity of convictions, practices, beliefs etc.
Muslims are UNIFIED mass,Koran says that they are brothers .
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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the verse clearly gives a permission to men not to women .
I already addressed this point, and I'm not interested in discussing this issue, it's been done on here before.
Your argument that religion needs to be stated on the ID because of marriage issues is silly. Foreigners don't have their faith on their IDs / passports, yet they get married to Egyptians all the time. If the government is so intent on prohibiting marriages between Muslim women and non-Muslim men, there are other ways to control this issue.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala:
God does not care about they think ,Prophet Muhammad does not care .
Abo baker did not care about them when they refused to pay Al-Zakat and killed them all .
And I do not think that the Egyptians care about them too.
My point was not what anyone thinks, but whether there are Muslim women marrying Christian men.
You said: "Muslim women do not marry Christian Men". Fact is – Muslim women are marrying Christian men, in Egypt and elsewhere, regardless of what you, the ulema, or the Egyptian government think of this.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala:
Muslims are UNIFIED mass,
O mankind, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely, the most honourable among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is Knowledgeable, Expert. (49:13)
quote:Originally posted by Rahala:
CHRISTIANS are not minority in Egypt.
mi·nor·i·ty
–noun
1. the smaller part or number; a number, part, or amount forming less than half of the whole. 2. a smaller party or group opposed to a majority, as in voting or other action. 3. a group differing, esp. in race, religion, or ethnic background, from the majority of a population: legislation aimed at providing equal rights for minorities. 4. a member of such a group. 5. the state or period of being under the legal age of full responsibility.
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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let me say this again ,Christians are not a religious minority in Egypt .
We do not discriminate upon religion in Egypt ,they are all citizens .
And in fact Egyptian majority do not care about those Muslim women who do on their own ,no Muslim woman can have here family consent on marrying non-Muslims and Al-Ma'zon who do this goes to jail,not only this but also the marriage contract gets cancelled .
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Rahala: Christians are not a religious minority in Egypt .
You obviously don't know what "minority" means.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: And in fact Egyptian majority do not care about those Muslim women who do on their own ,no Muslim woman can have here family consent on marrying non-Muslims and Al-Ma'zon who do this goes to jail,not only this but also the marriage contract gets cancelled .
Again, the point was not whether it is religiously correct or whether the Egyptian people agree, but whether it is happening or not. And fact is, it is happening. In most cases, the man simply officially converts regardless of whether he really believes in Islam or not, in order to make the marriage possible. After all, they have no way of checking his brain.
Just last week I was talking to a German colleague of mine who recently got married to a Muslim Egyptian woman. And he's not the only one I know …
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Rahala: We do not discriminate upon religion in Egypt ,they are all citizens .
Facts state otherwise:
International Religious Freedom issued a report on Egypt on March 12, 2010. The press release claims:
"The government's respect for human rights remained poor, and serious abuses continued in many areas... The government's respect for freedoms of association and religion remained poor during the year."
"Too often, those who attack Christians, their churches and properties enjoy impunity. Very often the security forces collaborate with the perpetrators."
"The police also use tactics like arresting and holding without charge the families of the victims, and only releasing them if they sit with the assailants and accept 'reconciliation' in which the perpetrators escape justice.
Following midnight mass last Christmas, in Naga Hammadi, six Christians were killed. And as recently as March 12th this year, a Muslim mob attacked a Christian congregation during prayers in the church attached to the services building of the Coptic Church in the Rifeyah area of the Mediterranean seaport of Mersa Matrouh. The attack reportedly left 23 Coptic Christians wounded, and 18 homes, 4 shops and 18 cars destroyed.
On a happier note, the Egyptian government has made some concessions to the Baha'i community, particularly with regard to ID cards."
Posts: 213 | Registered: Oct 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: You obviously don't know what "minority" means.
It is you who do not understand that Egyptians do not discriminate against Christians .It is your DEMOCRATIC government who do that ,and your counselor Miracle who said today or yesterday that Cultural pluralism has failed in Germany .
In Egypt ,you find Turks ,Arabs ,Egyptians , Armenians ,Greeks but no one complain about being treated badly or in a racist way by the people but in your DEMOCRATIC community Muslims complain .
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Rahala: ^sorry but the Koran says it load Muslims women can not be married to Kafirs ,and the same book says that Christians and Jews are Kafirs,so it is not about compulsion in religion it is about abiding by the religion .
show me one verse that says Christians and Jews are kafir and show me one verse where it specifically states who a muslim woman can or cannot marry.
if there is no compulsion in Islam then you cannot force anyone to abide by any belief.
60:10 "a you who believe! When believing women come to you as emigrants, examine them; Allah knows best as to their Faith, then if you ascertain that they are true believers send them not back to the disbelievers. They are not lawful (wives) for the disbelievers nor are the disbelievers lawful (husbands) for them. But give them (the disbelievers) that (amount of money) which they have spent [as their MahrlIl] to them. And there will be no sin on you to marry them if you have paid their Mahr to them. Likewise hold not the disbelieving women as wives, and ask for (the return of) that which you have spent (as Mahr) and let them (the disbelievers) ask back for that which they have spent. That is the Judgement of Allah, He judges between you. And Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise."
5:17
"Surely, in disbelief are they who say that Allah is the Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary) Say (0 Muhammad) :Who then has the least power against Allah, if He were to destroy the Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), his mother, and all those who are on the earth together?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them. He creates what He wills. And Allah is Able to do all things."
5:73
"Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no Ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilah (God -Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall on the disbelievers among them."
I am not going to post the verses about the Jews ,Quran is full of it .Allah is saying that He cursed the jews out of their Kofr (disblieve)
You claim here that all christians are kafir yet the post after you post the verse allowing men to marry from the believing Christians and Jews. They are obviously not ALL kafir then. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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^I do not care about the government and i do not speak for it ,it is the same government which hire its officers to kill Muslims and Christians.
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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Rahala, "minority" simply means that there are fewer of them.
How can you argue with this definition? The word "minority" does in no way indicate how they are treated or accepted into a society.
You can say, yes, Christians are a minority but in your view they are accepted into Egyptian society without discrimination. But, you cannot say that they are not a minority. This is simply a fact.
Posts: 770 | From: www.cafepress.com/tahrir_square | Registered: Jul 2010
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The argument is as follows ,a minority means that a special attention/rights should be given to them.
yes there are few of them ,but the word minority I use has a political meaning not a religious one.
This does not happen in Egypt .
Pope Shenouda himself said it "We are part of the Egyptian Majority "
It is true ,Christians in Egypt are part of the civilized Egyptian Arab-speaking people .
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Rahala: It is you who do not understand that Egyptians do not discriminate against Christians .
I haven't mentioned discrimination anywhere.
I just pointed out that your statement that Christians are not a minority in Egypt is wrong. Minority has something to do with numbers and percentages; since there are fewer Christians than Muslims in Egypt they are the minority, it's as simple as that.
Not sure what the German chancellor or democracy have to do with that.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by freshsoda: Ahab, Do you believe that ALL Quran is valid in any time and in any place? If we will follow what you say that for every verse, there was a specific reason for specific people 1430 years ago, it means that Quran is invalid now and no point to follow it, all verses like 9:28 which incite to fight Chrisitans or 9:5 which incite to kill infidels where you find them, are invalid FOR YOU and therefore no point for me to talk about invalid texts as you believe.
For Ahab, when you will read these links , you will understand my point above
posted
The words "Banging" "Head" and "Brick Wall" are in the forefront of my mind just now!
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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Why do you want to call them minority if the Christians themselves in Egypt do not consider themselves so ?
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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Rahala, Minority is an English word that means fewer in numbers. If there are fewer Christians in Egypt than Muslims then they are in the minority.
"minority: the smaller number or part, esp. a number that is less than half the whole number "
You are trying to make the word mean something that it does not mean. It's not that complicated really,
Tell me, are less than have the population in Egypt Christian or are there more Christians than Muslims?
Posts: 770 | From: www.cafepress.com/tahrir_square | Registered: Jul 2010
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How can you debate with somehow who tries to change the entier meaning of words in the English language.
Yo, Rahala, I have an example of the word 'minority'
Intelligent people on ES are in their minority. And you are not in the minority
Seriously, I don't know why folk bother trying to rationalise anything with this person!!!
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Rahala: ^we not ask any of the Christians about his opinion ? Does he belong to a minority or not?
just ask.
Why are you arguing with native English speakers about the meaning of an English word? Everyone is telling you what this word means and you are ignoring us. You are causing yourself to appear not too bright.
Look up the meaning of the word for heavens sake!Posts: 770 | From: www.cafepress.com/tahrir_square | Registered: Jul 2010
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I can't make it any simpler rahala. A 3 year old could grasp that.
let's try again:
you have 20 chicklets
you put 5 chicklets in one line ad 15 chicklets in another line.
The chicklets with only 5 are the MINORITY among the whole 20 chciklets as there are LESS in that line.
get it now?
Of the population of Egypt there are approx 90% Muslim and approx 6% Christians so the Christians are the MINORITY group.
Its not really difficult.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Well in Rahala's defense I understand where he is coming from with this argument. There seems to be some sort of discourse going on amongst Copts that Egypt IS actually a Christian country that was invaded by Arab moslems. It sounds ridiculous I know but this is some kind of minority mechanism of defense I guess. Putting forth a statement that is based on a reality from many hundreds of years ago. Reminds me a little of zionist arguments.
Posts: 2184 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Ahhhh! Is this the excuse for the Arab Moslems attacking them, then? In case they rise up and take their country back? Now it's all falling into place, Muslim pre-emptive strikes!!!!!
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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So Rahala,do, do u speak coptic language as Christians in Egypt speak? the point that copts have become visible aboriginal as the grand children of pharohs but Muslims don't have this advantage, they look a bit different in faces, with different language and relegion. So if anybody now want to see the grand children of pharohs will point finger to coptic christian in Egypt not to a Muslim.
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Rahala: How could you call somebody a minority if he is aboriginal ?
Muslims and Christians in this country are aboriginals .
that's all I have
what? Is it really that difficult to understand? are you for real? Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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^your viewpoint about the word Minority and its political consequence is not in Egypt
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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As has been explained by various native speakers, the meaning of the word is clearly defined, it is not a matter of opinion or point of view.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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Now that is funny sh1t. Please, pray tell what you have changed the meaning to so I can notify the dictionary writers and ensure that all other western speakers are aware it no longer means the same thing as it always has Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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I'm still trying to figure out where aboriginals comes into it, the meaning of that must have also changed
ferrets last line reminded me though, rahala always did state that most words don't mean what they say, this is why, he has obviously re-written the English Dictionary. Oxford will be so pleased
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Salam Rahala Can you please give me the English translation (meaning) for these 2 Arabic words, Aqallyah and Qaleel. Thanks
Posts: 3291 | From: I DO believe in Karma! | Registered: Apr 2002
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A minority can indeed mean some group of people that are less in numbers, but a minority can also mean a group of people that has less power, but are as many or even more, i.e. women have been called a minority because of their lack of power and inequality in comparison to men. Still they are usually around 50% of all populations.
What I think Rahala is trying to say is that Egyptian Copts are the true owners of the land and as such should not be regarded as a minority. It is strange to understand this thinking. It is similar to the logic of the Israeli argument or their claim to the land.
Posts: 2184 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: I'm still trying to figure out where aboriginals comes into it, the meaning of that must have also changed
ferrets last line reminded me though, rahala always did state that most words don't mean what they say, this is why, he has obviously re-written the English Dictionary. Oxford will be so pleased
Actually this is a true definition. Aboriginal means original or native.
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