quote:BannedTroll writes: :Feel free to show an actual quote oh false one All it says there is Rmt
Feel free to show that all the Book of Gates says is -> Rm.t.
Moreover, feel free to come up with some other catch phrase to attempt at hiding your sheer ignorance other than 'feel free'.
Otherwise "feel free" to admit that...
quote:....you're a loser who has no answers.
Blacks - Km.t Rm.t - Ancient Egyptians. The Blacks and the Reds, as stated and shown.
Anyone who claims otherwise step up, or admit defeat by your deafening silence.
In the Book of Gates, who are the Blacks? Who the Reds? Whom are the progeny of Heru? Who are the children of Seketh? Why are the 4 groups divided into 2, distinct lineages? What are the names of these lineages? Which group belongs to which lineage?
Go run back to HallofMaat and ask them since you clearly have no clue.
Or maybe they are just as clueless as you?
For my edification can anyone translate the glyphs between the various figures and lay out what they ALL say?
The glyphs in the above photo are NOT the same for all the different groups. The first and second figures do NOT have the same glyphs next to them.
Just for clarity.
And, not specifically at anyone, why are we so focused on this ONE tableu?
By now we should ALL realize that focusing EXCLUSIVELY on the HAND PICKED data that is provided by "others" is a waste of time. Make the point then move on and explore ALL THE OTHER DATA.
One of the biggest charades in this whole discussion is that out of the THOUSANDS of images, texts, inscriptions and other data from Egypt, we KEEP going over the same MINUTE FRAGMENTS over and over and over again. THE WHOLE TOMB of Rameses III is enough to DISPROVE the idea of any UNBLACKNESS among ancient Egyptians and has MANY MORE INSCRIPTIONS and RELIEFS that CAN AND SHOULD be observed to UNDERSTAND the Egyptian world view. Just looking at this ONE PANEL while ALL THE REST is ignored is a TOTAL TRAVESTY.
Open your horizons, there are HUNDREDS, if not THOUSANDS of images from EVERY period of Egyptian history and HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of reliefs for each reign of any major king for us to collect and examine. Focusing on this handful of SCRAP data is ridiculous, especially because this OTHER data is even MORE important than constantly FIXATING on one or two images from THOUSANDS of years of Egyptian history.
posted
First thing to note is that this photo is from the actual tomb.
All the reproductions are condensations of what is actually on the tombs.
The tombs show 16 figures, devided into 4 groups. labled [rm.t, nshy, aamu, and tamehu].
The reason you never see and actual wall photo of all 16 is that it is extremely wide and once you pull back enough to see all the figures you can no longer read the text.
The accompaning text is from the Book of Gates - which is a sacred repeated often in mdw ntr and which [in my opinion] is part basis for the Bible and its story of Noah and his sons Ham,Shem and Jepeth.
To the Hebrew, Egyptians and Ethiopians were both sons of Ham - ie Blacks, whereas the Hebrew were sons of Shem.
To the Ret n' Rome both themselves and the Nehesi were children of Heru, whereas non Blacks were children of Seketh.
Lepsuis and Kurt Seth condensed the scene so you could see one of each group and read the text associated.
The designation for "Egyptians", Ret 'n rome, which translates as men above men, begins to the right of the left most figure on the tomb, with the heiroglyphics for letters RT, and the continues across to the next of the 4 Black Egyptians shown.
In the condensation this is written in entiriety to the right of the left-most figure.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Feel free to show that all the Book of Gates says is Rm.t. Next to that image you keep on reposting that is exactly what it says. Moreover, feel free to come up with some other catch phrase to attempt at hiding your sheer ignorance other than 'feel free'. [B]Feel free to get a clue first In the Book of Gates, who are the Blacks? Who the Reds? Whom are the progeny of Heru? Who are the children of Seketh? Why are the 4 groups divided into 2, distinct lineages? What are the names of these lineages? Which group belongs to which lineage?
You are the one making the claims so FEEL FREE to prove it with direct quotes
Go run back to HallofMaat and ask them since you clearly have no clue. Or maybe they are just as clueless as you? You wish. I could easily post the whole book here, but it is you who are making specific claims so quote which section
quote:Originally posted by rasol: In Ancient Egyptian, the ordinary adjective always follows the noun it modifies, whereas a sanctified adjective usually comes before its noun. The sanctified adjectives are: Kem -- Black Suten - Royal Nter --- Holy, Sacred http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/ LOL Like Wally is a credible source. And if Sanctified adjectives come before, Hedj-wer, the Great White would mean White was sactified as well or how about Osiris here? Sure seems red is before and he is a god. Or how about his bodyguard god?
It's also worth noting that in the Book of Gates Rm.t and Nhsy are proclaimed the progeny of Heru, wheres Tamehu and Aamu are the children of Seketh. Funny, I am reading Budge's translation and I see Horus cried to create the Reth and ejaculated to create the Nehesu ( a generic term for hundreds of thousands of beings it seems. So not the same people, nor any closer related than the Mighty Aamu. Furthermore, Sekhmet as the eye of Ra,is just as related to Ra. As he states Mine Eye. So it does not seem to be claiming kinship of any srt you allude to.
Horus saith unto the creatures of Ra who dwell in the Black Land (Qemt, i.e., Egypt) and in the Red Land (i.e., the deserts which lie on each side of the Black Land formed of the mud of the Nile):--"Magical protection be unto you, O ye creatures of Ra, who have come into being from the Great One who is at the head of heaven! Let there be breath to your nostrils, and let your linen swathings be unloosed! Ye are the tears 1 of the eye of my splendour in your name of RETH (i.e., men). Mighty of issue (AA-MU) ye have come into being in your name of AAMU; Sekhet hath created them, and it is she who delivereth (or, avengeth) their souls. I masturbated [to produce you], and I was content with the hundreds of thousands [of beings] who came forth from me in your name of NEHESU (i.e., Negroes); Horus made them to come into being, and it is he who avengeth their souls. I sought out mine Eye, and ye came into being in your name of THEMEHU; Sekhet hath created them, and she avengeth their souls." Also Rm.t and Nhsy are classed as Km.t, Blacks, whereas Aamu and Tamehu are Dsr.t, Reds. Nope, nowhere in the Book of Gates does it do that
KemHer, BlackFace ^ It's not enough to say that such literal blackness is 'symbolic', which per se is and empty disclaimer, since *all ethnic color identities* are ultimately symbolic. [likewise the notion of distinct lineages for Heru and Seketh is also symbolic - but you must address *what* is being symbolised -> it symbolises ethnic affinity] Those who would deny Blackness as a self-reference to the AE must prove that Blackness shown in the skin, is actually not related to the skin - as shown - but related instead to something else.
Nice try. All they are describing is mythological issue of various sorts. Notice that the Reth and the Nehesu do not come from the same issue. Obvioulsy they are seen as different. Like I have shown before Osiris has been depicted as Red, Toth as White. So that Horus was called called Black means little. Just Afrocentrics picking and choosing evidence to try to present some claim that all Egyptians considered themselves Black and tht it was the trend overall. It wasn't.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: It's clear that none of the muppets, Jamie, Kathy, Bernie, et. al have any data for anything. Population affinities of the native Black Africans of the Nile Valley: A comparison with neighboring Nile Valley skeletal samples suggests that the high status cemetery represents an endogamous ruling or elite segment of the local population at *Naqada, which is more closely related to populations in northern Nubia* than to neighboring populations in southern Egypt. - American Journal of Physical Anthropology, Vol. 101, Issue 2, October 1996, Pages: 237-246
LOL. Talk about a strawman argument as no one has ever claimed that Naqada's rulers weren't southern in Origin. But it does show all people in Naqada weren't as similar. Furthermore, Naqada is in the South, so it does not speak of places such as Fayum or MemphisPosts: 169 | Registered: Apr 2007
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Actually he is, unlike yourself Katherine and Bernard who can't even transliterate the simplist heiroglyphics, much less refute Wally, Champollion or Budge.
Care to try again?
Please show your 'counter' translations of the following - consider this unanswsered question # 11.
quote:Originally posted by Wally: I apologize to the veterans on this forum for posting information that they're already familiar with, but I feel it's necessary for the newbies who come here frequently and with confused or distorted notions regarding the Ancient Egyptians, and who come with the following delusions:
Self-delusion A recent post started out with "Some claim that Kemet means black people". The key word in this first statement is "claim" which is a synonym for "believe", which seeks to place a human language in the same category as religion. You can believe in or not believe in God, that's one thing; but you don't believe that "veni" in Latin means "I came"; you either KNOW or you don't. However, this delusion leads to one that has been fabricated by the distorters of Egyptology.
Assisted delusion "The Egyptians called their country "Kmt" or "Kemet" which means "Black" after the color of the soil." This is simply an absolute lie. There is nothing in the grammar, even if one were to use an electron microscope to search for an example that the soil or earth had any connection with the use of this word. The only references to the soil in the names of Ancient Egypt were the names "TaMeri and TaMere"; "Ta" meaning "earth, land, etc." This mantra is almost always repeated to "inform" the reader of why the word "Black" for Egypt and Egyptians was used, and probably using the age old philosophy that if you repeat a lie often enough, and long enough, it soon becomes accepted as the truth. NOT if one knows better...
KEMET
A comprehensive list of the structure and usages of perhaps the most significant word in the Ancient Egyptian language. All of these words can be found in "An Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary" by E. A. Wallis Budge, Dover, NY
Used as an adjective
kem;kemem;kemom - black kemu - black (m) keme.t - black (f) hime.t keme.t - "black woman" (woman of Black) himu.t keme.t - "black women" (women of Black)
Used as a noun
keme.t - any black person, place, or thing
A determinative is then used to be more specific:
keme.t (woman) - "the Black woman"; ie, 'divine woman' keme.t (cow) - "a Black cow" - ie, a 'sacred cow' Keme.t (nation) - "the Black nation"
kem - a black one (m) keme.t - a black one (f) kemu - black ones (m) kemu.t - black ones (f) kemeti - two black ones
Used for Nationality
Sa Kemet - a man of Black (an Egyptian male) Sa.t Kemet - a woman of Black (an Egyptian female) Rome.t Kemet - the people of Black (Egyptians) Kemetou - Blacks (ie, 'citizens') Kememou - Black people (of the Black nation)
Other usages
Sa Kem - "Black man", a god, and son of Sa.t Kem.t - "Black woman", a goddess (page 589b) kem (papyrus) - to end, complete kem.t (papyrus) - the end, completion kemi - finished products kem khet (stick) - jet black ... kemwer - any Egyptian person, place or thing ('to be black' + 'to be great')
Kemwer - "The Great Black" - a title of Osiris - the Ancestor of the race
Kemwer (body of water) - "the Great Black sea" - the Red sea Kemwer (body of water + river bank) - a lake in the Duat (the OtherWorld) Kemwer Nteri - "the sacred great Black bulls" kemwer (fortress) - a fort or town Kemwer (water) - the god of the great Black lake
Kem Amut - a black animal goddess Kemi.t-Weri.t - "the great Black woman", a goddess Kem-Neb-Mesen.t - a lion god Kem ho - "black face", a title of the crocodile Rerek kem; kemu (shield) - buckler, shield kem (wood) - black wood kem.t (stone) - black stone or powder kem.tt (plant) - a plant kemu (seed) - seeds or fruit of the kem plant kemti - "black image", sacred image or statue
Using the causative "S"
S_kemi - white haired, grey-headed man (ie, to have lost blackness) S_kemkem - to destroy, overthrow, annihilate S_kemem - to blacken, to defile
Antonyms
S_desher - to redden, make ruddy S_desheru - red things, bloody wounds
Some interesting Homonyms (pages 770 > )
qem - to behave in a seemly manner Qemi - the south, Upper Egypt qem.t - reed, papyrus qemaa - to throw a boomerang qem_au - to overthrow qemam.t - mother, parent qemamu - workers (in metal, wood) qemqem - tambourines qemd - to weep qemati - statue, image - same as kemti qema - to create qemaiu - created beings Qemau;Qemamu - The Creator
Deshret - the opposite of Kemet
deshr.t - any red (ie, non-Black) person, place, or thing ... deshr.t (woman) - "the Red woman"; ie, 'evil woman' deshr.t (cow) - "a Red cow" - ie, the 'devil's cow' deshr - a red one (m) deshr.t - a red one (f) deshru - red ones (m) deshru.t - red ones (f) -- White or light-skinned people; devils deshreti - two red ones
Page 9 and still Jamie, Katherine and Bernard have no answers?
Is there anyone who would like to take up the 'cause' of black soil?
Is there anyone who can dispute Diop as pertains the following....
It is a collective (ensemble) formed by putting the black adjective in feminine singular followed by the determinative composed of the man, the woman and the three figures representing the plural
Doug wrote: Look at the row of heiroglyphics from the right hand side and start going to the left two columns (sets of characters). There you will see the sign for "km.t", represented by a heap of charcoal over the half circle, followed by the sign for people. There can be no doubt that this is NOT a reference to soil as the determinative for people is EXPLICITLY written, meaning the PROPER translation is "the came and ruled the blacks/black people.
DougM is exactly right.
Is there anyone who would like to claim to not be able to see the above, or who can't see that the heiroglyphs are presented right to left in plate 3?
Which direction are the Rm.t [seated people] facing in the worterbuch definition?
Which direction are they facing in papyrus plate 3?
Anyone who can't identify what is being referenced even when pointed right to it?
If so, either ask questions, present your arguments, are tacitly acknolwedge by your silence that the "Ancient Egyptians" were, by their own definition -> BLACKS.Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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By the way, your questions regarding the Lespius paintings remind me of poor Arabized AMR who claimed the painting of the 'jet-black' Egyptian to be fake and that Egyptians never called themselves 'black'. They would rather call themselves "brown" or even "green"! LMAO
[ 01. May 2007, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: Horus_Den_1 ]
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
^ When we explained to Amr that the text specifically states the Black African in question was and "AE", Amr tried to claim that maybe the man was 'working' for the Egyptians, a cowardly way of repeating the stormfront lie that perhaps the man is a 'slave'.
This notion becomes hilarious when you understand the context of the Book of Gates, and the specific meaning in the labeling of Ret n' Rome -> Man above Men!.
^ Eurocentric racism feeds off of ignorance, and seeks to perpetuate it at that same time.
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posted
It would be interesting to post pics of AE individuals and gods who were referred to as "red" or "black" in the same document.
For example, here is a pic of Kemsit, her name meaning "The Black Lady":
Also here is a statue from the tomb of an Egyptian official named Niankhpepi the Black. Some suggest it is himself, others that he's a bearer. Do you people know how one could check either possibility?
Would it be possible for a bearer to have worn a wig like this one?
Do you people know any others?
Posts: 307 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Often when Egyptologists try to explain away references to red and black they trap themselves in contradiction:
This is from Dr. Hawass:
quote:The god Seth was the god of confusion and the spirit of disorder. He is the best known as the god who introduced murder on earth by killing his brother Osiris, the god who represents good.
After time, they agreed on peace and decided that Horus would be the ruler of Lower Egypt and that Seth would rule Upper Egypt.
They also agreed, Horus would be the lord of the black land and Seth would be the lord of the red land, including foreign countries and the desert.
In the end, the good god conquered the devil and Horus became the King of two lands, Upper and Lower Egypt.
Let's consider Hawass assessment point by point.
quote:The god Seth was the god of confusion and the spirit of disorder. He is the best known as the god who introduced murder on earth by killing his brother Osiris, the god who represents good.
Hawass leaves out the fact that Osirus is also identified in mdw ntr as the Black One, he of the Black face, and further Isis is also identified as Black. Isis and Osirus begat Horis, who is also Black, and they are all the ancestors of the "AE" who are also Black.
quote:After time, they agreed on peace and decided that Horus would be the ruler of Lower Egypt and that Seth would rule Upper Egypt.
Actually Seth originates as a God and in Upper Egypt, then his cult moves to Lower Egypt, and finally over time he becomes a devil-figure and associated with Asiatics. In Seth, we likely find one root-origin of Hebrew Satan, the devil, and the concept of the Red Devil.
Thus from the Book of Victory over Seth:
One shall bring a figure of Seth of red wax on the chest of which is engraved his name, as follows: Seth the abominable. Furthermore draw him (Seth) on a new sheet of papyrus with fresh ink, or (bring a figure made of) acacia wood or HmA-wood. Tie (the figure of Seth) with a sinew of a red cow; speak words over it. [Spit on it] four times; speak words over it. Stamp on it with the left foot, speak words over it. Hit it with the spear; speak words over it. Cut it with the knife; speak words over it. Put it in the fire; speak words over it. When it is in the fire spit on it again many times; speak words over it.
Seth once villified [and reddened] is banished from Kemet.
They are expelling (you, who) is of evil disposition and throw you in your badness into the land of the Asiatics.
Egypt, loyal to Horus, organized your slaughter; your grief is repeated. They deliver you to the Devourer.
Seth's redness is congruent with his association with Asiatics. Thus even in the Ramsiad era when his worship resurfaces in Lower Egypt he is still red.
Conversely Osirus his wife Isis and their son Horus are always Black.
Even when the cult of Isis moves to Greece [the birth of the Black Madonna], she is still Black.
This has always been the problem with attempting to make redness and blackness a function of land - the land doesn't move, and is not instrinsic to the peoples discribed.
Black and Red applied here are ethnic terms - characteristic of the peoples, not geographical terms rooted in land.
quote:In the end, the good god conquered the devil and Horus became the King of two lands, Upper and Lower Egypt.
Yes, and he is still Kem Wer - The great Black Horus, King of "Upper Egypt" and "Lower Egypt".
In fact there is never any reference to Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt as black vs. red land.
Hawass either accidentally or intentionally sows confusion and so ends up contradicting himself. Is lower Egypt supposed to be the black land?
Then why does it have the red crown?
Is Upper egypt supposed to be the red land?
Then why does it have the white crown?
The answer is that Red applies to the foreign countries of Red people, Asiatics and Magrheb Libyrans. There is no 'Red' [land/country] of upper or lower Kemet, and there was never any reference to such.
All of "Egypt" in contrast is Kemet[nwt], Kemet[rmt] the Black Nation of Black People.
1) the two lands - which are Ta Shemu and Te Mehu, Upper and Lower Egypt neither of which are differeniated based on color.
2) the white crown and the red crown, this is not a reference to land or people but rather to the literal color of the crowns.
The white crown originates in Ta-seti, Qustal, Sudan, the red crown in Nub.t [Nagada, Upper egypt].
The crowns including the Red Crown, White Crown, joined crown, and the Blue Crown have their own colors, which are independant of land and people.
Thus the crowns themselves 'move' to different territories and polities, but they are still identified by their own colors.
Kemetic color dialects are actually not complicated.
What is complicated is the acobatics ws.t Egyptology goes thru to run away from them.
And what is surprising is that any African scholar would ever credit their patently contradictory nonsenses in the slightest, all to evade and understanding of what is basic:
Kemetu/Deshret, the Black King wears the Red Crown.
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: One correction: this'd be the Christian Satan/devil god of evil not the Hebrew Satan/adversary agent of the God who creates good and evil.
Otherwise totally correct. Set is the original Red Devil.
Excellent post Rasol, your dialectic is perfectly logical.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: In Seth, we likely find one root-origin of Hebrew Satan, the devil, and the concept of the Red Devil.
Actually the Tanakhim says God created good and evil not Hashatan(Shaytaan-thing of clay).
Posts: 336 | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
Sorry I don't have the Ranke's books dealing with the recording of Kemetic personal names, but from what I read from LAM Aboubacry M., the custom of adding the epithet "black" to personal names(but also "red", which makes me think that the km word was a reference to color) was frequent throughout all periods of Kemetic's history.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Often when Egyptologists try to explain away references to red and black they trap themselves in contradiction:
This is from Dr. Hawass:
quote:The god Seth was the god of confusion and the spirit of disorder. He is the best known as the god who introduced murder on earth by killing his brother Osiris, the god who represents good.
After time, they agreed on peace and decided that Horus would be the ruler of Lower Egypt and that Seth would rule Upper Egypt.
They also agreed, Horus would be the lord of the black land and Seth would be the lord of the red land, including foreign countries and the desert.
In the end, the good god conquered the devil and Horus became the King of two lands, Upper and Lower Egypt.
Let's consider Hawass assessment point by point.
quote:The god Seth was the god of confusion and the spirit of disorder. He is the best known as the god who introduced murder on earth by killing his brother Osiris, the god who represents good.
Hawass leaves out the fact that Osirus is also identified in mdw ntr as the Black One, he of the Black face, and further Isis is also identified as Black. Isis and Osirus begat Horis, who is also Black, and they are all the ancestors of the "AE" who are also Black.
quote:After time, they agreed on peace and decided that Horus would be the ruler of Lower Egypt and that Seth would rule Upper Egypt.
Actually Seth originates as a God and in Upper Egypt, then his cult moves to Lower Egypt, and finally over time he becomes a devil-figure and associated with Asiatics. In Seth, we likely find one root-origin of Hebrew Satan, the devil, and the concept of the Red Devil.
Thus from the Book of Victory over Seth:
One shall bring a figure of Seth of red wax on the chest of which is engraved his name, as follows: Seth the abominable. Furthermore draw him (Seth) on a new sheet of papyrus with fresh ink, or (bring a figure made of) acacia wood or HmA-wood. Tie (the figure of Seth) with a sinew of a red cow; speak words over it. [Spit on it] four times; speak words over it. Stamp on it with the left foot, speak words over it. Hit it with the spear; speak words over it. Cut it with the knife; speak words over it. Put it in the fire; speak words over it. When it is in the fire spit on it again many times; speak words over it.
Seth once villified [and reddened] is banished from Kemet.
They are expelling (you, who) is of evil disposition and throw you in your badness into the land of the Asiatics.
Egypt, loyal to Horus, organized your slaughter; your grief is repeated. They deliver you to the Devourer.
Seth's redness is congruent with his association with Asiatics. Thus even in the Ramsiad era when his worship resurfaces in Lower Egypt he is still red.
Conversely Osirus his wife Isis and their son Horus are always Black.
Even when the cult of Isis moves to Greece [the birth of the Black Madonna], she is still Black.
This has always been the problem with attempting to make redness and blackness a function of land - the land doesn't move, and is not instrinsic to the peoples discribed.
Black and Red applied here are ethnic terms - characteristic of the peoples, not geographical terms rooted in land.
quote:In the end, the good god conquered the devil and Horus became the King of two lands, Upper and Lower Egypt.
Yes, and he is still Kem Wer - The great Black Horus, King of "Upper Egypt" and "Lower Egypt".
In fact there is never any reference to Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt as black vs. red land.
Hawass either accidentally or intentionally sows confusion and so ends up contradicting himself. Is lower Egypt supposed to be the black land?
Then why does it have the red crown?
Is Upper egypt supposed to be the red land?
Then why does it have the white crown?
The answer is that Red applies to the foreign countries of Red people, Asiatics and Magrheb Libyrans. There is no 'Red' [land/country] of upper or lower Kemet, and there was never any reference to such.
All of "Egypt" in contrast is Kemet[nwt], Kemet[rmt] the Black Nation of Black People.
1) the two lands - which are Ta Shemu and Te Mehu, Upper and Lower Egypt neither of which are differeniated based on color.
2) the white crown and the red crown, this is not a reference to land or people but rather to the literal color of the crowns.
The white crown originates in Ta-seti, Qustal, Sudan, the red crown in Nub.t [Nagada, Upper egypt].
The crowns including the Red Crown, White Crown, joined crown, and the Blue Crown have their own colors, which are independant of land and people.
Thus the crowns themselves 'move' to different territories and polities, but they are still identified by their own colors.
Kemetic color dialects are actually not complicated.
What is complicated is the acobatics ws.t Egyptology goes thru to run away from them.
And what is surprising is that any African scholar would ever credit their patently contradictory nonsenses in the slightest, all to evade and understanding of what is basic:
Kemetu/Deshret, the Black King wears the Red Crown.
Note he is called "the black" but is NOT painted black. He is depicted in the normal brown of ancient Egyptian art. But if this person is "black" and most ancient egyptians are depicted as thus, then what does that say about Egyptians and the term "black" as reference to themselves?
Note that he is nowhere as dark as this: Posts: 8897 | Registered: May 2005
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I guess that the epithet "black" is indeed used here to describe Niankhpepi's skin tone which can be considered as darker than lighter skinned Kemetians (probably from his immediate environment).
A case I mentioned above similar to this hypothesis would be the one of the two brothers Hapi the Red and Hapi the Black who wore the same name and were only distinguished by their complexions.
Of course all of this needs to be confirmed or contradicted by more evidence and it would definitely be great if one could post a pic of an individual nicknamed "Red".
Posts: 307 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I've never understood why anyone would think it odd that invididual Km.t would be called Black.
It's actually one of the most powerful evidences that the term is ethnic because it is even more difficult to put it off -on land-.
Notice seldom does anyone even bother arguing that Kmst or Pepi-Kem's name is a reference to soil.
Because the counter evidence is particular and specific and stares them right in the face.
In such cases even Eurocentric Egyptologists such as Frank Yurco have broken down and admitted that the names are and ethnic appelative.
I've noticed though that some African scholars seem to derive that if individual Kemetians are given the name Black - then that implies somehow that others were not.
That assumption makes no sense.
It's like saying that if Neferiti, or Nefertari means 'beautiful', then it implies that other Kemetian women were not beautiful because these women were singled out.
In fact what is established is that the names are ethnic appelatives that apply to people.
Once this fact is established the burden of proof shifts.
For someone to claim that Nefer or Kem as used by the AE and applied to people, really referenced land, and not people, they must provide specific examples from the mdw ntr and show that people is stated but...somehow, land is what is meant.
Of course anti-Kemetic Eurocentrists cannot do this, so here is what they try to do:
They ask for evidence, then ignore the evidence, then they ask for more, then ignore that.
Meanwhile they fails to address evidence, answer questions, or provide any evidence for their ludicrous contention that Km.t[Rm.t] Black People, means Black 'land' and not people, because they don't have any evidence for such a patently rediculous contention.
Elementary Burden of Proof fallacy is one supposes a nice scam on some other website, but not here.
Page 9 and 1 month down the line, we're still waiting for the parent post to be be adequetely addressed.
What's taking so long?
quote:Originally posted by Wally: I apologize to the veterans on this forum for posting information that they're already familiar with, but I feel it's necessary for the newbies who come here frequently and with confused or distorted notions regarding the Ancient Egyptians, and who come with the following delusions:
Self-delusion A recent post started out with "Some claim that Kemet means black people". The key word in this first statement is "claim" which is a synonym for "believe", which seeks to place a human language in the same category as religion. You can believe in or not believe in God, that's one thing; but you don't believe that "veni" in Latin means "I came"; you either KNOW or you don't. However, this delusion leads to one that has been fabricated by the distorters of Egyptology.
Assisted delusion "The Egyptians called their country "Kmt" or "Kemet" which means "Black" after the color of the soil." This is simply an absolute lie. There is nothing in the grammar, even if one were to use an electron microscope to search for an example that the soil or earth had any connection with the use of this word. The only references to the soil in the names of Ancient Egypt were the names "TaMeri and TaMere"; "Ta" meaning "earth, land, etc." This mantra is almost always repeated to "inform" the reader of why the word "Black" for Egypt and Egyptians was used, and probably using the age old philosophy that if you repeat a lie often enough, and long enough, it soon becomes accepted as the truth. NOT if one knows better...
KEMET
A comprehensive list of the structure and usages of perhaps the most significant word in the Ancient Egyptian language. All of these words can be found in "An Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary" by E. A. Wallis Budge, Dover, NY
Used as an adjective
kem;kemem;kemom - black kemu - black (m) keme.t - black (f) hime.t keme.t - "black woman" (woman of Black) himu.t keme.t - "black women" (women of Black)
Used as a noun
keme.t - any black person, place, or thing
A determinative is then used to be more specific:
keme.t (woman) - "the Black woman"; ie, 'divine woman' keme.t (cow) - "a Black cow" - ie, a 'sacred cow' Keme.t (nation) - "the Black nation"
kem - a black one (m) keme.t - a black one (f) kemu - black ones (m) kemu.t - black ones (f) kemeti - two black ones
Used for Nationality
Sa Kemet - a man of Black (an Egyptian male) Sa.t Kemet - a woman of Black (an Egyptian female) Rome.t Kemet - the people of Black (Egyptians) Kemetou - Blacks (ie, 'citizens') Kememou - Black people (of the Black nation)
Other usages
Sa Kem - "Black man", a god, and son of Sa.t Kem.t - "Black woman", a goddess (page 589b) kem (papyrus) - to end, complete kem.t (papyrus) - the end, completion kemi - finished products kem khet (stick) - jet black ... kemwer - any Egyptian person, place or thing ('to be black' + 'to be great')
Kemwer - "The Great Black" - a title of Osiris - the Ancestor of the race
Kemwer (body of water) - "the Great Black sea" - the Red sea Kemwer (body of water + river bank) - a lake in the Duat (the OtherWorld) Kemwer Nteri - "the sacred great Black bulls" kemwer (fortress) - a fort or town Kemwer (water) - the god of the great Black lake
Kem Amut - a black animal goddess Kemi.t-Weri.t - "the great Black woman", a goddess Kem-Neb-Mesen.t - a lion god Kem ho - "black face", a title of the crocodile Rerek kem; kemu (shield) - buckler, shield kem (wood) - black wood kem.t (stone) - black stone or powder kem.tt (plant) - a plant kemu (seed) - seeds or fruit of the kem plant kemti - "black image", sacred image or statue
Using the causative "S"
S_kemi - white haired, grey-headed man (ie, to have lost blackness) S_kemkem - to destroy, overthrow, annihilate S_kemem - to blacken, to defile
Antonyms
S_desher - to redden, make ruddy S_desheru - red things, bloody wounds
Some interesting Homonyms (pages 770 > )
qem - to behave in a seemly manner Qemi - the south, Upper Egypt qem.t - reed, papyrus qemaa - to throw a boomerang qem_au - to overthrow qemam.t - mother, parent qemamu - workers (in metal, wood) qemqem - tambourines qemd - to weep qemati - statue, image - same as kemti qema - to create qemaiu - created beings Qemau;Qemamu - The Creator
Deshret - the opposite of Kemet
deshr.t - any red (ie, non-Black) person, place, or thing ... deshr.t (woman) - "the Red woman"; ie, 'evil woman' deshr.t (cow) - "a Red cow" - ie, the 'devil's cow' deshr - a red one (m) deshr.t - a red one (f) deshru - red ones (m) deshru.t - red ones (f) -- White or light-skinned people; devils deshreti - two red ones
posted
Brings to mind Marie-claire & Maria-obscura
Pics of "Red?" Which one? Detroit Red? (Malik el Hadji Shabazz) Red Foxx? (comedian) Redman? (the rapper)
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: I guess that the epithet "black" is indeed used here to describe Niankhpepi's skin tone which can be considered as darker than lighter skinned Kemetians (probably from his immediate environment).
A case I mentioned above similar to this hypothesis would be the one of the two brothers Hapi the Red and Hapi the Black who wore the same name and were only distinguished by their complexions.
Of course all of this needs to be confirmed or contradicted by more evidence and it would definitely be great if one could post a pic of an individual nicknamed "Red".
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: Thanks Doug M for the pic!
I guess that the epithet "black" is indeed used here to describe Niankhpepi's skin tone which can be considered as darker than lighter skinned Kemetians (probably from his immediate environment).
A case I mentioned above similar to this hypothesis would be the one of the two brothers Hapi the Red and Hapi the Black who wore the same name and were only distinguished by their complexions.
Of course all of this needs to be confirmed or contradicted by more evidence and it would definitely be great if one could post a pic of an individual nicknamed "Red".
But you are missing something, the irony here is that NiankhPepi is depicted NO DIFFERENTLY from other Egyptians, even with the appendage "the black", if that is indeed the correct translation. If HE is called black, but portrayed no differently than other Egyptians, then what are the others? Black as well is the point. We must be careful about following this translation as "the black" and look at the original heiroglyphs ourselves. It may be just another Eurocentric ruse to try and isolate this OBVIOUSLY black African image as being NOT NORMAL for ancient Egypt. This is a blatantly obviously false point of view, but nevertheless that is what is intended by such a translation.
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quote:But you are missing something, the irony here is that NiankhPepi is depicted NO DIFFERENTLY from other Egyptians, even with the appendage "the black",
In my opinion, Pepi the Black, or Black Pepi is the correct translation.
It is true that 'black' ie 'km' can be analogized in mdw ntr to other things, [complete, holy, final, etc.] but you can't engage in a word substitution on this basis.
For example, in the English language, when someone is referred to as black, as in 'the black knight', or 'black hearted', it essentially means... 'villian', it's not and ethnic appellation, rather it reflects english language color dialectics wherein black is associated with all things bad.
However, you still can't translate - black knight into villianous knight, and certainly not with the rationale of trying to avoid a 'misunderstanding' of the meaning of black in this context.
You could argue that Pepi the Black and Kemsit are called Black as a general honorary title. But then you'd have to talk pretty fast in order to evade the relationship between honorary Blackness, symbolic Blackness, dark skin and Kemetic reference to their dark skinned selves as Black.
Fact is Eurocentric Egyptologists are trapped on this issue.
They can run but they can't hide.
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quote: But you are missing something, the irony here is that NiankhPepi is depicted NO DIFFERENTLY from other Egyptians, even with the appendage "the black", if that is indeed the correct translation. If HE is called black, but portrayed no differently than other Egyptians, then what are the others? Black as well is the point.
No, I took that into account, and as I said, some of these color epithets were used to distinguish people sharing features or from a same environment(cf. homonyms like the two brothers both named Hapi and only distinguished by the color epithet (dshr & km).
What I guess from the evidence presented so far is that both epithets, when used in microsociological contexts (as opposed to macrosociological i.e. national or "ethnic" contexts) had the semantic value of "fair" and "dark" that could be "translated" in different ways.
quote: We must be careful about following this translation as "the black" and look at the original heiroglyphs ourselves. It may be just another Eurocentric ruse to try and isolate this OBVIOUSLY black African image as being NOT NORMAL for ancient Egypt. This is a blatantly obviously false point of view, but nevertheless that is what is intended by such a translation.
I don't know what you assume the epithets "dshr" and "km" would have actually meant, but I don't think there is an actual way to distinguish the Md Ntr for "complete" from the one for "black" from a graphic standpoint.
But since it seems pretty clear to me that the colors "km" and "dSr" were antonyms in Kemetic (cf. dshr.t/km.t), that the two epithets applied to the Hapi's were as well, while the two homonyms of the colors "complete" & "evil", were not to my knowledge.
Hapi dSr "Evil Hapi" or the occurrences of highly ranked Kemetian officials nicknamed "red" translated by "evil" cited by LAM wouldn't make much sense IMO.
I haven't the book at hand right now, but LAM 1993 cited several examples of indigenous Black African names meaning "the black" as reference to their complexions. Nothing "Eurocentric" there.
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quote:I don't know what you assume the epithets "dshr" and "km" would have actually meant, but I don't think there is an actual way to distinguish the Md Ntr for "complete" from the one for "black" from a graphic standpoint.
There is, a separate word for complete in mdt ntr-> mi qd.
Again you can argue that Pepi Kem means complete [though I don't think that makes any sense], but you can't translate Kem [black] to mi qd [complete].
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a) The name Kmst is a title; Kemsê which means Black female/lady/woman which I have included on my Authentic Ancient Egyptian names list.
b) The name ni-ankh-pepi-kem is also a name but in order to understand it, it must be completely translated: ni(not)-ankh(living)-pepi(a brickmaker)- kem (to the end!); There is no such animal as NiAnkhPepi the black!.
The adjective "black" always precedes the noun in the Mdu Ntr; these 'Egyptologists' KNOW this rule (KmOsiri, KmIsi, Kmwer and never OsiriKm, IsiKm, or werKm... ...sigh...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:The name ni-ankh-pepi-kem is also a name but in order to understand it, it must be completely translated: ni(not)-ankh(living)-pepi(a brickmaker)- kem (to the end!);
Get ready to sigh again because I don't follow this at all.
I can't make any sense out of not living brickmaker to the end. This is jibberish to my ears which makes it very unlikely that Pepi II's name was perceived in this form.
quote: There is no such animal as NiAnkhPepi the black!.
I don't understand this sentense either, or it's rationale.
In order to turn Pepi Kem, ie - black brickmaker, which makes sense.....into a nonsense sentence, you append NiAnkh to it.
You then tell us that we 'must' translate the whole name, as in a sentense, but why so?
Perhaps it was not meant to be read as a sentense?
Here's the question: is Pepi Kem always written out in NiAnkhPepiKem, or no?
For example we know of references to Osirus Ani, and Kem Osirus, which might make more sense read separately than when expanded into Kem Osirus Ani. Does reference to Kem Osirus Ani even exist?
If not, then trying to read it as a single name, and then translate it into a logical sentense would be and incorrect methodology.
And if the resulting sentense makes no sense - how can you be certain that it is 'kem' 'black' that turns it into nonsense as opposed to your translation of NiAnkh? ?
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quote:The adjective "black" always precedes the noun in the Mdu Ntr; these 'Egyptologists' KNOW this rule (KmOsiri, KmIsi, Kmwer and never OsiriKm, IsiKm, or werKm...
I would like you to elaborate on this, because it is a major point of contention over the nature of how Kem is used.
Some Egyptologists simply claim that the adjective should always follow the noun, whereas Diop noted that a royale adjective can precede the noun.
This begs the question - is kem always a royale adjective?
Are you saying that when km.t = the color black then it is a royal adjective, but when it is and analogy for complete, holy, sarcred, the end, then it loses its function as a royale adjective and 'normal' adjective rules apply??
Can you give us examples of other Kemetic uses of Km.t as complete/ the end, especially as a part of a name?
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a) The name Kmst is a title; Kemsê which means Black female/lady/woman which I have included on my Authentic Ancient Egyptian names list.
b) The name ni-ankh-pepi-kem is also a name but in order to understand it, it must be completely translated: ni(not)-ankh(living)-pepi(a brickmaker)- kem (to the end!); There is no such animal as NiAnkhPepi the black!.
The adjective "black" always precedes the noun in the Mdu Ntr; these 'Egyptologists' KNOW this rule (KmOsiri, KmIsi, Kmwer and never OsiriKm, IsiKm, or werKm...
Which period of Kemetic are you referring to? I'm asking this because I don't know much about Late-Kemetic/Coptic syntax, and that I'm pretty sure that the adjective km as well as others can be placed after the noun (with an epithet function) as well as before (with a predicative function) in Middle Kingdom's Kemetic.
And I don't get your translation of Niankhpepi's name either.
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quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: I haven't the book at hand right now, but LAM 1993 cited several examples of indigenous Black African names meaning "the black" as reference to their complexions. Nothing "Eurocentric" there.
Note that according to LAM, names with a reference to "black" among the Fulani of Senegambia are applied to people who can be considered as "dark" (in a subjective way of course), and are not restricted to pitch-black skinned people.
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posted
As an explanation to the post quoted below, I would distinguish the two following two names by translating more precisely "km sa.t" as "the Lady (is) Black" and "sa.t km.t" (not the noun but the adjective) as the "black lady".
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
quote:Originally posted by Wally: [QB] ...sigh...
a) The name Kmst is a title; Kemsê which means Black female/lady/woman which I have included on my Authentic Ancient Egyptian names list.
b) The name ni-ankh-pepi-kem is also a name but in order to understand it, it must be completely translated: ni(not)-ankh(living)-pepi(a brickmaker)- kem (to the end!); There is no such animal as NiAnkhPepi the black!.
The adjective "black" always precedes the noun in the Mdu Ntr; these 'Egyptologists' KNOW this rule (KmOsiri, KmIsi, Kmwer and never OsiriKm, IsiKm, or werKm...
Which period of Kemetic are you referring to? I'm asking this because I don't know much about Late-Kemetic/Coptic syntax, and that I'm pretty sure that the adjective km as well as others can be placed after the noun (with an epithet function) as well as before (with a predicative function) in Middle Kingdom's Kemetic.
And I don't get your translation of Niankhpepi's name either.
posted
Yes subjective. And in populations that range from medium to dark brown like Egypt, subjectively, dark is going to be darker than in a population like, say Greece where some one lighter would be referred to as Black a lot quicker. Subjective perception.
Posts: 169 | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
^ Subjectively speaking....you sound like a man with no answers, a man with no credibility, a beaten man.....
quote:Originally posted by Wally: I apologize to the veterans on this forum for posting information that they're already familiar with, but I feel it's necessary for the newbies who come here frequently and with confused or distorted notions regarding the Ancient Egyptians, and who come with the following delusions:
Self-delusion A recent post started out with "Some claim that Kemet means black people". The key word in this first statement is "claim" which is a synonym for "believe", which seeks to place a human language in the same category as religion. You can believe in or not believe in God, that's one thing; but you don't believe that "veni" in Latin means "I came"; you either KNOW or you don't. However, this delusion leads to one that has been fabricated by the distorters of Egyptology.
Assisted delusion "The Egyptians called their country "Kmt" or "Kemet" which means "Black" after the color of the soil." This is simply an absolute lie. There is nothing in the grammar, even if one were to use an electron microscope to search for an example that the soil or earth had any connection with the use of this word. The only references to the soil in the names of Ancient Egypt were the names "TaMeri and TaMere"; "Ta" meaning "earth, land, etc." This mantra is almost always repeated to "inform" the reader of why the word "Black" for Egypt and Egyptians was used, and probably using the age old philosophy that if you repeat a lie often enough, and long enough, it soon becomes accepted as the truth. NOT if one knows better...
KEMET
A comprehensive list of the structure and usages of perhaps the most significant word in the Ancient Egyptian language. All of these words can be found in "An Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary" by E. A. Wallis Budge, Dover, NY
Used as an adjective
kem;kemem;kemom - black kemu - black (m) keme.t - black (f) hime.t keme.t - "black woman" (woman of Black) himu.t keme.t - "black women" (women of Black)
Used as a noun
keme.t - any black person, place, or thing
A determinative is then used to be more specific:
keme.t (woman) - "the Black woman"; ie, 'divine woman' keme.t (cow) - "a Black cow" - ie, a 'sacred cow' Keme.t (nation) - "the Black nation"
kem - a black one (m) keme.t - a black one (f) kemu - black ones (m) kemu.t - black ones (f) kemeti - two black ones
Used for Nationality
Sa Kemet - a man of Black (an Egyptian male) Sa.t Kemet - a woman of Black (an Egyptian female) Rome.t Kemet - the people of Black (Egyptians) Kemetou - Blacks (ie, 'citizens') Kememou - Black people (of the Black nation)
Other usages
Sa Kem - "Black man", a god, and son of Sa.t Kem.t - "Black woman", a goddess (page 589b) kem (papyrus) - to end, complete kem.t (papyrus) - the end, completion kemi - finished products kem khet (stick) - jet black ... kemwer - any Egyptian person, place or thing ('to be black' + 'to be great')
Kemwer - "The Great Black" - a title of Osiris - the Ancestor of the race
Kemwer (body of water) - "the Great Black sea" - the Red sea Kemwer (body of water + river bank) - a lake in the Duat (the OtherWorld) Kemwer Nteri - "the sacred great Black bulls" kemwer (fortress) - a fort or town Kemwer (water) - the god of the great Black lake
Kem Amut - a black animal goddess Kemi.t-Weri.t - "the great Black woman", a goddess Kem-Neb-Mesen.t - a lion god Kem ho - "black face", a title of the crocodile Rerek kem; kemu (shield) - buckler, shield kem (wood) - black wood kem.t (stone) - black stone or powder kem.tt (plant) - a plant kemu (seed) - seeds or fruit of the kem plant kemti - "black image", sacred image or statue
Using the causative "S"
S_kemi - white haired, grey-headed man (ie, to have lost blackness) S_kemkem - to destroy, overthrow, annihilate S_kemem - to blacken, to defile
Antonyms
S_desher - to redden, make ruddy S_desheru - red things, bloody wounds
Some interesting Homonyms (pages 770 > )
qem - to behave in a seemly manner Qemi - the south, Upper Egypt qem.t - reed, papyrus qemaa - to throw a boomerang qem_au - to overthrow qemam.t - mother, parent qemamu - workers (in metal, wood) qemqem - tambourines qemd - to weep qemati - statue, image - same as kemti qema - to create qemaiu - created beings Qemau;Qemamu - The Creator
Deshret - the opposite of Kemet
deshr.t - any red (ie, non-Black) person, place, or thing ... deshr.t (woman) - "the Red woman"; ie, 'evil woman' deshr.t (cow) - "a Red cow" - ie, the 'devil's cow' deshr - a red one (m) deshr.t - a red one (f) deshru - red ones (m) deshru.t - red ones (f) -- White or light-skinned people; devils deshreti - two red ones
Page 9 and still Jamie, Katherine and Bernard have no answers?
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: It would be interesting to post pics of AE individuals and gods who were referred to as "red" or "black" in the same document.
For example, here is a pic of Kemsit, her name meaning "The Black Lady":
Also here is a statue from the tomb of an Egyptian official named Niankhpepi the Black. Some suggest it is himself, others that he's a bearer. Do you people know how one could check either possibility?
Would it be possible for a bearer to have worn a wig like this one?
Do you people know any others?
Where does the first pic come from?
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Note he is called "the black" but is NOT painted black. He is depicted in the normal brown of ancient Egyptian art. But if this person is "black" and most ancient egyptians are depicted as thus, then what does that say about Egyptians and the term "black" as reference to themselves?
Note that he is nowhere as dark as this:
I think there are various reasons. It could have depended on the particular artist who was painting at the time. Also, as you and others have said, Black as an ethnic/social definition is new. Many Black people are not oily, jet Black like ink. Like MOST African Americans are actually light to dark brown...but not oil Black. So why would the AE paint themselves as such when Black as a racial definition wasn't known to them? They painted themselves as they were, which may have been very dark brown which is very common on the walls of tombs and such. Like me, my complextion is like this...
EDIT: Actually, as a matter of fact...this is my Myspace page...
posted
...sigh, sigh, sigh... The name ni-ankh-pepi-kem is also a name but in order to understand it, it must be completely translated: ni(not)-ankh(living)-pepi(a brickmaker)- kem (to the end!); This would literally mean "I am not living to be a brickmaker all my life." or "I am not alive to become a brickmaker for the rest of my life."
ALL African names have meanings: Malaika = Swahili for Angel Malaku = Amharic for Angel
Anok ang ou Kame = I am Black (Coptic Egyptian) Ink ing w Km.t = I am Black (Mdu Ntr) Literally "I am a Black person."
Why all of this confusion?
...and "Black as an ethnic term is new!" Yeah, new to you. It was an ethnic term thousands of years BC!
quote:The name ni-ankh-pepi-kem is also a name but in order to understand it, it must be completely translated:
I don't agree.
The name Charles, Prince Charles, Prince Charles King of England, Charles Philip Arthur George Windsor, Prince Charles, son of the Duke of Edinburough are all names for Prince Charles.
It is not at all clear however, than in order to understand the meaning of the name Charles - you must say -> Prince Charles son of Duke of Edinburough, most of which has -nothing- to do with the word Charles.
Wally, this is why I asked you - how the name is written in the primary text.
If it ever written as Pepi Kem, or NiAnk Pepi, then it may not make sense to insist on some sort of singular coherent translation of NiAnk Pepi Kem.
quote:Anok ang ou Kame = I am Black
Can't you see how this example reinforces my point?
A proper analogy would be Niank Kemet., in which the person would have the name Black which, according to you is shorthand for I am not Black.
I repeat, this makes no sense.
So sigh for us one more time, and explain again...
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quote:ni(not)-ankh(living)-pepi(a brickmaker)- kem (to the end!); This would literally mean "I am not living to be a brickmaker all my life."
Again. Here is why this makes no sense to me:
If his name is ever referred to as Pepi [brickmaker/buider], then the convoluted negation of this ie - not! a brickmaker is completely lost.
It's like the difference between naming someone Brickmaker, and...not a Brickmaker.
In fact I don't think this translation is correct, because it makes no sense for a name to function as a negation of itself.
It's like claiming someone had a daughter and named her 'not a whore', who also became known as 'whore' for short.
And alternative:
Perhaps NIAnk is a reference to unliving as in - spirit of.
Pepi = brickmaker, buider
Kem = black.
Now the name makes sense whether it is stated as Pepi [builder/brickmaker], Pepi Kem[black brickmaker], or NiAnk Pepi [spirit of brickmaker].
You can convince me that your definition is viable easily enough -> show me that his name is only Niank Pepi and never just Pepi. It can't be both, bocause, as you translate them, the two 'names' utterly contradict one another.
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quote:The name ni-ankh-pepi-kem is also a name but in order to understand it, it must be completely translated:
I don't agree.
The name Charles, Prince Charles, Prince Charles King of England, Charles Philip Arthur George Windsor, Prince Charles, son of the Duke of Edinburough are all names for Prince Charles.
It is not at all clear however, than in order to understand the meaning of the name Charles - you must say -> Prince Charles son of Duke of Edinburough, most of which has -nothing- to do with the word Charles.
Wally, this is why I asked you - how the name is written in the primary text.
If it ever written as Pepi Kem, or NiAnk Pepi, then it may not make sense to insist on some sort of singular coherent translation of NiAnk Pepi Kem.
Are you messin' with me, rasol?
a) The name "Charles" is from the teutonic language and means "free man"
b) The name "TutankhAmen" is from the Mdu Ntr and means "Living image of Amen"
c) and this Pepi stuff..."Pepi the Black" would be written Pepi Km.t, like Rm.t Km.t, and stuff...
...and so on, and so on...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:The name "Charles" is from the teutonic language and means "free man"
The name Pepi is mdw ntr for builder, or brickmaker.
Kem is mdw ntr for black.
Can you show me how the other appelatives to charles name, like Son of, or Duke, or Windser can change the meaning of Charles from 'free man' to something else?
Can you explain how this would work when he is most often known simply as Charles?
Can you explain how the other appelatives would change the meaning of Pepi, or Pepi Kem, given that the other appelatives are often not even spoken?
I'm not messing with you at all. I'm just asking what appear to me to be obvious questions.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:b) The name "TutankhAmen" is from the Mdu Ntr and means "Living image of Amen"
But surely you can see Wally that what Ankh is constrasting is not -living vs. dead -, but the material and the spiritual.
Ankh is living, Amen is the spirtual. This would seem to be a dialectic - a discourse in opposities.
Therefore, wouldn't Ni-Ankh also then equal the spirtual as opposed to the living?
Ni-Ankh Pepi as spirit of Brickmaker makes sense.
Ni-Ankh as not living to make Bricks makes no sense.
I have already explainded why.
quote: c) and this Pepi stuff..."Pepi the Black" would be written Pepi Km.t, like Rm.t Km.t, and stuff...
This takes me back to my ealier question which was not answered.
If Kem is viewed here as a normal adjective for black then it is just another example of adjective following the noun in mdw ntr.
Pepi Kem noun followed by adjective = Black Brickmaker.
You claim that this isn't so because 'kem' can *never* [never!!!] be used as a 'normal' adjective because Black is sacred.
But this leads to contradiction because you are now claiming that Kem is no longer a royal adjective but merely a common noun 'end', yet you still hold it accountable to a unique rule that is predicated on its particular meaning as Black to begin with. [???]
Note he is called "the black" but is NOT painted black. He is depicted in the normal brown of ancient Egyptian art. But if this person is "black" and most ancient egyptians are depicted as thus, then what does that say about Egyptians and the term "black" as reference to themselves?
Note that he is nowhere as dark as this:
I think there are various reasons. It could have depended on the particular artist who was painting at the time. Also, as you and others have said, Black as an ethnic/social definition is new. Many Black people are not oily, jet Black like ink. Like MOST African Americans are actually light to dark brown...but not oil Black. So why would the AE paint themselves as such when Black as a racial definition wasn't known to them? They painted themselves as they were, which may have been very dark brown which is very common on the walls of tombs and such. Like me, my complextion is like this...
EDIT: Actually, as a matter of fact...this is my Myspace page...
posted
9 pages later and the mixed-up troll is still at it!
quote:foolish troll wrote: Yet somehow Dougie M wants to pretend that Northern Egypt was pure African without any Levant influence.
LOL Yet all your sources merely spoke of TRADE and not any significant immigration or admixture. Stop trying to make the Egyptians like YOU-- mixed up. LOL
quote:Incorrigible troll wrote Feel free to read Dougie M and Al wannabe Xingu Takruri's posts Instead, many of us think that "blackness" was a sacred color in Egyptian cosmology. As was White. As was Gold...
Incorrect. Black was considered thee most sacred color which represented power and regeneration; gold second which represented eternity and the color of the sun. White was NOT a sacred color persay and in fact represented death. The *only* deities depicted as white were moon deities and for obvious reasons-- the moon was white. Bad try.
quote:There were statues in all these colors They called themselves black because they were associating themselves with a color they viewed as positive, not because they were describing their typically northeast African complexion...
Of course the Egyptians were associating themselves with a positive aspect, however notice that their typically northeast African complexion did not include "gold" and definitely not "white", how interesting that BLACK is the only category used for skin complexion for northeast africans today.
quote:..North East African culture varied.
Indeed, but like Northeast Asian cultures, there were many commonalities.
quote:...And there is no evidence that they ever referenced themselves as Black people except in reference to Egypt..
Incorrect as first of all "Egypt" was a Greek word.
And second, for the thousandth time Kememu (blacks) had NO reference whatsoever to land or even a place.
quote:But if you think Egypt was called that for some religious reason, I am willing to listen to your theory.
Theories are already confirmed pretty much.
quote:Still sacred. And so where some deities depicted as Red. So where Egyptians Red, Black and Golden?
Which deity was depicted as "red", except maybe Set when he became demonized as 'red' was a color symbolic of evil and chaos?!
quote:maybe, but no evidence it is in reference to complexion, nor evidence this was universal among Africans
Actually YEA, since many northeast Africans like the Masai and Oromo call themselves black to this day and neither reference had anything to do with foreign Arab or European colonial influence as these peoples had little contact with Europeans!
quote:By the way, why should any of us take YOUR word when you have not shown any evidence to the contrary??
I have! Why should we take YOUR word when you have shown NO evidence to your claims and all OUR evidence makes it clear you are WRONG??
quote:Nice try. misquoting me to Jablonski to get the feedback you want is not proving any lie, and even in that response she never claimed they were the same as modern tropicals. Only that they approached.
Bad try. You are now trying to twist her words now and saying that such complexions were not 'black' by today's standards? LOL
quote:The Sandawe are modern tropicals and until Bantu admixture were lighter than the rest of the populations.
Again you speak of "lighter" Sandawe yet you show now evidence. We have shown you plenty of Sandaw that are still dark enough to be considered 'black'. In fact Sandawe do not have as much "Bantu" admixture as you claim. Ironically Somali have have even less but are even darker.
quote:Furthermore, Jablonski was never able to address the KhoiSan lightness when radiation in the Kalahari parallels plenty of tropical regions.
The Kalahari is located far south of the equator. Other than that, I don't know how that helps you considering modern humans or at least Out-of-Africans originated from the equatorial regions.
Oh foolish mixed-up mongrel is repeating the same nonsense over and over because he is dizzy from his confusion.
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:
EDIT: Actually, as a matter of fact...this is my Myspace page...
posted
Courtesy of Myra's webpage: Kemsit, the Nubian queen of the Egyptian King Mentuhotep II (2061-2010 B.C.), and her servants; from a painting in her tomb chamber wall; Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York; from Naville, The XI Dynasty Temples at Deir el-Bahri III (London: Egypt Exploration Fund, 1913), pl 3.
Kemsit was sometimes called Kemsiyet and Khemsait. She was buried in Mentuhotpe's mortuary complex at Thebes. Her sarcophagus had inscriptions calling her the "Sole Favorite of the King", but this was on other female's sarcophagi as well.
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: It would be interesting to post pics of AE individuals and gods who were referred to as "red" or "black" in the same document.
For example, here is a pic of Kemsit, her name meaning "The Black Lady":
Also here is a statue from the tomb of an Egyptian official named Niankhpepi the Black. Some suggest it is himself, others that he's a bearer. Do you people know how one could check either possibility?
Would it be possible for a bearer to have worn a wig like this one?
posted
Names; From the Pyramids to the Projects (from a title expressed by Askia Toure)
African-Americans have been conditioned by the experience of slavery to be deeply anti-intellectual (These are my people, so not only do I have the right but also the obligation to be self-critical!). A book becomes, for the African-American masses, the last resort in finding something out; so in naming babies, it has also become somewhat of a glaring embarrassment:
The Oakland Raiders have just drafted a Black quarterback, whose name is JaMarcus Russell; clearly no book of babies names were consulted here! And we are all familiar with the "projects" names such as "LaTwika", "LaKwanda", and the likes.
I knew this young African-American lady who had a cat whom she named "Sukari", which she thought that she had just made up. I had to inform her that the word "Sukari" in Swahili meant "sugar" and that it was an appropriate name for her pet. Her reaction was "Whaat???", with a broad smile to boot...
Names; From the Pyramids...
Names in non-Western cultures do not assume a proper sense in the manner that Anglo-Saxon names such as Walter, John, William, assume. In African culture names mean something entirely different; if you're Ghanaian and your first name is Kwame, it means you were Saturday's child...
In the Mdu Ntr (and in Coptic) the name of the month "Mesore" is NOT just a proper name; it means "Birth of the god of the Sun"
Let us give some concrete examples:
Ankhi = "I live" Piankhi = "The Living One" (a 25th dynasty restorer of Kemet's legitimacy) Niankhi = "I am not living" AnkhesnAmen = "She lives for the Hidden One" (Wife of TutAnkhAmen...) AnkhefnAmen = "He lives for the Hidden One" NiAnkhesnAmen = "She is not living for the Hidden One."
THEREFORE, there is no way to correctly translate a word from the Mdu Ntr that includes a mixture of English with the Mdu Ntr! It's the same as translating "Kememou" to mean "Egyptians" which of course it doesn't. It is as equally fallacious and deceiving to translate "NiAnkhPepiKem" as "NiAnkhPepi" -the black...
NiAnkhPepi = "He is not living to make bricks" or more poetically "He was not born to make bricks all of his life." (with "kem" = end, completion, finished...)
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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The Ni-ankh-XXX type of name was quite frequent in Kmt, hence Ni-Ankh-Khnum, Ni-Ankh-Sekhmet, which are usually translated by "Life belongs to XXX", the translation "Life belongs to Pepi" would make more sense than yours IMO in regard of those examples as well as the fact that Nia-Ankh-Pepi lived under King Pepi's reign. But as other pointed out, we must know the Mdw Ntr of the name to make a definitive conclusion.
You still haven't told me which synchrony of Kemetic you're referring to and I disagree with you that ""Pepi the Black" would be written Pepi Km.t, like Rm.t Km.t,"...
The epithet adjective always agrees with the gender of the noun he qualifies in ME. Pepi is a masculine noun so "Black Pepi" or "Pepi the Black" would be translated as Ppy Km in MK's Kemetic.
Posts: 307 | Registered: Oct 2005
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