posted
Note how the author tries to deny and spin around the fact that African traits were found in Neolithic Greek crania:
"The female of forty-plus years of age from Grave 2 was examined by J. L. Angel who noted what he interpreted as (( a number of ' negroid ' (not full negro)traits in the face." lo The skull is fairly complete, but not enough so for discriminant function analysis." There is marked maxillary prognathism and the orbits may be described as rectangular, traits frequently used in forensic diagnosis of Negro crania. Despite the presence of these traits, we must recall that we are quite ignorant of the range of variation in cranial morphology among the Late Roman Corinthians. Consequently, attempts to identify the race of a single skull (one of only three preserved from the Lerna Hollow collection) are on unsure grounds. The features of this skull may, after all, be within the range of variation for the (presumably) Caucasoid population of Corinth at this time.''
The Skeletons of Lerna Hollow Al B. Wesolowsky Hesperia, Vol. 42, No. 3. (Jul. - Sep., 1973), pp. 340-351.
Sounds like denial to me. The presence of E3b and so-called "Negroid" traits found in Macedonian Neolithic crania confirm that these traits came from a migration from Africa, end of story and games.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Good citation. Whenever historic eurocentrism, discovers 'negroid' then pronounces 'k-zoid' anyway, it simply exposes a race discourse rooted in irrational conceptualisation, and desparate bias.
btw: I disagree with the delimiting of native Africans or Blacks to sub-saharan.
It's somewhat like delimiting European to Nordic, at which point we can imply that Rome and Greece and with it most of "European" history is not 'truly' European, as only Nordish are truly European.
Eurocentrists have still saddled Africans with a crippling terminology/conception that we unconciously continue to repeat.
We must shatter their terminology/conception. It is the primary weapon they have left for promoting their supremacist revisionist history.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I agree, I edited my post to saying African as opposed to sub-Saharan African and Negroid. I think its funny how these Eurocentrists, and especially Hellenist-Supremacist types like to talk about Medit K-Zoids in Northeast Africa then deny Africa influence in crania from Greece and the Balkans. They consider skulls with so-called "Negroid" traits to be part of the K-zoid range of variation but deny that skulls of Elongated Africans are part of the range of variation found in so-called "Negroids". Thus Elongated Africans are so called hybrid "Negroid-K-zoids", while people belonging to the type found in Lerna are just a part of the natural range of variation found in K-Zoids, pathetic.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Forget cranial morphology and the like; it is a red herring. It cause’s you to spend your time looking for undiscovered material in unknown places, that will be of unknown value, simply to prove the obvious. Namely; that the original MODERN Humans of Europe were Africans.
This particular argument always leaves me mystified. It is generally accepted by all sensible scientists that MODERN Caucasians evolved in the Eurasian Plains and did not reach southern Europe until about 1,200 B.C. It is also generally accepted that the original civilizations of southern Europe are much older than that.
So the choices for the builders of the original civilizations of Europe are: Neanderthals (maybe some still existed at this late date), Cro-Magnons (who are believed to have lasted until 2,000 B.C.), or MODERN MAN: The only humanoids of this type (modern Man), available at this time, just happen to be Africans. Seems like a No-Brainer to me.
To me; a much more important question is; Where are the artifacts! What did they do with them? We know that ALL the original people of southern Europe were prolific artisans, yet there are but a few Etruscan statues and tomb paintings, just a few statues of pure-blood Blacks for Greece, nothing but a few coins to tell us that the original people in France were Black, nothing at all for the original civilizations of Iberia, and though there are numerous relief’s from Anatolia; little work seems to have been done to properly categorize and date them.
For the Turks: one consequence of their lack of stewardship is the uncertainty surrounding the Trojans of myth. Though anecdotal data indicates that they were Black, where is the hard evidence that would ordinarily be provided by properly cataloged and researched artifacts? Could it be, that there is a White conspiracy to hide the truth in southern Europe; there is no doubt that this is what they tried in Egypt and the Middle East.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Actually, there are Minoan frescoe depictions of blacks. A couple of which was posted on this forum, actually.
Considering the anthropological evidence as well as artistic evidence, there is no use denying that Africans have left a significant mark on Greece.
Indeed, the article that Charles presented only shows the lengths of denial the racially bias Eurocentric scholars will go.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
"Wiseman, loc. cit., notes that Angel examined another skull from the nearby Asklepieion excavations in 1937 and recorded that it, too, displayed " Negroid " traits."
Despite this the author of the paper continues to stay in denial.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Forget cranial morphology and the like; it is a red herring.
A red herring is something that is spectacular and designed to draw attention away from the topic.
So if cranial morphology is a 'red herring', it means you are saying that cranial morphology is of -no value- in understanding European anthropological history.
I just want it to be clear that this is what you're saying?
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Namely; that the original MODERN Humans of Europe were Africans.
This particular argument always leaves me mystified.
^ You see I think, this is a straw man.
For example - who is making this argument? Did someone write a specific commment in this thread that you are refuting?
If not, then aren't you subtley trying to change the subject away from the facts presented and the thesis being presented, to and 'attack' on some other thesis.
I don't see the relationship between the study presented and your comments on it.
quote: It is generally accepted by all sensible scientists that MODERN Caucasians evolved in the Eurasian Plains
This is not correct. Many anthropologist reject the notion of caucasian as a race-catagory.
Example from CL Brace: "terms like caucasoid, negroid and mongoloid are worse than usless".
^ So you are wrong to imply that there is some kind of concensus that agrees with you. There isn't.
quote:Modern 'caucasians' did not reach southern Europe until about 1,200 B.C.
Don't know what this is supposed to mean, other than to imply that prior to 1,200 BC southern Europe was -non caucasian-.
If so then this would imply that 'caucasians' played no role in the Neolithic revolution which spread FROM Southern Europe to the North prior to 1,200 BC.
Before the Neolithic revolution, considered in ws.t discourse to be the birth of 'civilisation', eurassians are only stone age, often cave dwelling, hunter gatherers.
So you are saying 'non-caucasians' [whatever that means] brought 'civilisation' to Europe (?)
Is this correct?
Is is possible that these 'non caucasians' also introduced African paternity and autosomes such as Benin HBS along with civiliation.... to Europe?
If this is so, what aspect [if any] of the thesis of African influence in Greece are you disputing?
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Good citation. Whenever historic eurocentrism, discovers 'negroid' then pronounces 'k-zoid' anyway, it simply exposes a race discourse rooted in irrational conceptualisation, and desparate bias.
btw: I disagree with the delimiting of native Africans or Blacks to sub-saharan.
It's somewhat like delimiting European to Nordic, at which point we can imply that Rome and Greece and with it most of "European" history is not 'truly' European, as only Nordish are truly European.
EUROCENTRISTS HAVE STILL SADDLED AFRICANS WITH A CRIPPLING TERMINOLOGY/CONCEPTION THAT WE UNCONCIOUSLY CONTINUE TO REPEAT.
We must shatter their terminology/conception. It is the primary weapon they have left for promoting their supremacist revisionist history.
quote:Originally posted by Charlie Bass: Note how the author tries to deny and spin around the fact that African traits were found in Neolithic Greek crania:
"The female of forty-plus years of age from Grave 2 was examined by J. L. Angel who noted what he interpreted as (( a number of ' negroid ' (not full negro)traits in the face." lo The skull is fairly complete, but not enough so for discriminant function analysis." There is marked maxillary prognathism and the orbits may be described as rectangular, traits frequently used in forensic diagnosis of Negro crania. Despite the presence of these traits, we must recall that we are quite ignorant of the range of variation in cranial morphology among the Late Roman Corinthians. Consequently, attempts to identify the race of a single skull (one of only three preserved from the Lerna Hollow collection) are on unsure grounds. The features of this skull may, after all, be within the range of variation for the (presumably) Caucasoid
No. Actually, your lie-terminology has put you in a position where you have to bend them.
"Caucasoid and negroid are distinct, but oh, wait no, now caucasoids can encompass negroids because - we say it can." is the jist of what you're saying.
This is all laughable terminology when considering these traits can be found all over the globe - ALL OVER, in people who are no closer related to eachother than folks whose traits differ.
Thus, giving Clyde his access to his Celts and Eskimos,
(as opposed to all of Asia Oh wait no ) (how could I forget, Marcs Germanics from the caucasus who's lineages trace back to Africa)
and gives Eurocentrists access to some Tutsis, Khoisan and Nilotic Africans.
Which is all utterly REDICULOUS if you look at legitamit facts.
quote: population of Corinth at this time.''
The Skeletons of Lerna Hollow Al B. Wesolowsky Hesperia, Vol. 42, No. 3. (Jul. - Sep., 1973), pp. 340-351.
Sounds like denial to me. The presence of E3b and so-called "Negroid" traits found in Macedonian Neolithic crania confirm that these traits came from a migration from Africa, end of story and games.
And since 'negroid' 'caucasian' and other terminology used in anthropology is BS, with the possible exception of caucasian in a proper context (when one is talking about something as it relates to the caucasus and thus, Europeans).
SO REDICULOUS! >%O
D:<
EDIT:
By the way, Bass, you may have noticed I bolded a couple of your words.
What are "African traits" in your opinion?
I'm sure you know much of what people ascribe to this group [caucusans] - that is a sub-set of a group descended from individuals who had a subset of African lineages - is found in indigenous Africa.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Rasol; you are an amazement to me. It’s uncanny how you manage to sound authoritative while talking, what amounts to, just so much Stuff.
A red herring is a metaphor for a diversion or distraction from an original objective. In this case, that original objective would be proving that the original civilizations of southern Europeans were Black. I fail to understand your confusion.
Quote: Example from CL Brace: "terms like caucasoid, negroid and mongoloid are worse than usless".
The fact is, I don’t give a sh*t what Mr. Brace thinks about that or anything else. The fact is, White people created a RACE based world, people like me are only playing the game by their rules, it just turns out that there was more ammunition available to us than they thought.
Definition: The Neolithic Revolution was the first agricultural revolution—the transition from nomadic hunting and gathering communities and bands, to agriculture and settlement.
Quote: If so then this would imply that 'caucasians' played no role in the Neolithic revolution which spread FROM Southern Europe to the North prior to 1,200 BC.
Before the Neolithic revolution, considered in ws.t discourse to be the birth of 'civilisation', eurassians are only stone age, often cave dwelling, hunter gatherers.
I think by definition Cro-Magnons (the only non-Black Humanoids there at the time), are “Cave Men”. As far as is known, Cave men did not engage in agriculture. (See how it works; if you add 2 + 2 together carefully, you always get 4. So what’s your difficulty?
Quote: So you are saying 'non-caucasians' [whatever that means] brought 'civilisation' to Europe (?)
No: I am NOT saying that: I think it more likely that they CREATED civilization in Europe. There is no indication, (so far), that they copied Egypt, Sumer, or Indus valley culture. But: by virtue of the myth of Danaus, or Danaos ("sleeper") who was a Greek mythological character, twin brother of Aegyptus and son of Belus, a mythical king of Egypt. The case can be made that the building of Mycenae, was a joint, Cretan and Egyptian venture.
Quote: Is is possible that these 'non caucasians' also introduced African paternity and autosomes such as Benin HBS along with civiliation.... to Europe?
In my own mind, anyone attempting to make the case either way, (with the science we now have), is a fool. Here is why: We know with certainty, that Blacks inhabited the Eastern Plains, (as a result of the second great migration). This accounts for the difference in complexion between Caucasians and MOST Mongols (some are quite pale). There was no physical barrier separating Blacks and Caucasians, so who knows what happened.
Caucasians and Blacks were again thrown together as Caucasians migrated into Southern Europe.
Finally: a large part of the Roman contingent occupying Britain was Black, (this from British T.V.). Plus, the untold other occasions when they were thrown together, makes it impossible to say when or how genes were exchanged.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
The point you're missing is that white peoples were present in ancient southern Europe as they are the aboriginal populations. It just so happened that the Neolithic was introduced to southern Europeans by people of African descent, hence the "negroid" features of Neolithic bearers. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: The point you're missing is that white peoples were present in ancient southern Europe as they are the aboriginal populations. It just so happened that the Neolithic was introduced to southern Europeans by people of African descent, hence the "negroid" features of Neolithic bearers.
You are assuming that Cro_Magnons were "White", I do not believe that to be a safe assumption.
From Britannica: The Guanches "Cro-Magnoids" - these aboriginal peoples inhabited the western and eastern Canary Islands. They were first encountered by the conquering Spaniards at the beginning of the 15th century. Both populations are thought to have been of Cro-Magnon origin, and may possibly have come from central and southern Europe via north Africa in some distant age. Both aboriginal groups had brown complexion skin, blue or gray eyes, and blondish hair. These characteristics still persist in a large number of present day inhabitants of the islands, but otherwise they are scarcely distinguishable in appearance or culture, from the current people of Spain. Neither original group now exists as a separate race.
posted
^ Who said anything about Cro-magnons?! Also, the whole classification of 'Cro-magnon' is ambiguous anyway as the term has been applied to various other remains in North Africa that have nothing to do with Europe.
I merely said, that Europeans were 'white' by the time the Neolithic arrived via peoples of African descent.
Or do you not understand the difference in time frame Cro-magnons of the Upper Paleolithic from more modern Europeans of Neolthic times. Even modern Europeans possess some traits of their Cro-magnon ancestors-- which differ from the recent "negroid" forebearers of Neolithic culture.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
It is your use of Neolithic which is causing me problems.
Definition: Neolithic - of or relating to the latest period of the Stone Age characterized by polished stone implements.
By definition you are talking about Cro-Magnon.
When Caucasians came into Europe they were certainly barbaric Nomads, but no one said that they were stone age people, (they were MODERN Humans).
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
As I've said many times before, Black Africans were the Ancient Greeks who built Ancient Greece which later fell only to be occupied new people. For crying out loud, Greece is a ferry ride from Egypt. Commonsense isn't that common anymore but I believe we can instill it back.
The only thing I am not sure of is how far Greece is from Egypt in minutes or hours.
Posts: 213 | From: New York City, USA | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Definition: Neolithic - of or relating to the latest period of the Stone Age characterized by polished stone implements.
By definition you are talking about Cro-Magnon.
Evergreen Writes:
How do Cro-Magnons define the Neolithic period? This makes no sense.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Rasol; you are an amazement to me. It’s uncanny how you manage to sound authoritative while talking, what amounts to, just so much Stuff.
Actually I only asked specific questions trying to understand what aspect of African Influence in Greece you are disputing.
The content free ad homina beginning of your reply suggests that you're not sure, what you mean and are trying to divert me by getting personal.
Uhm, that won't work. Only care about answers to my questions.
quote: In this case, that original objective would be proving that the original civilizations of southern Europeans were Black.
Really? Whose objective is that? If we quote from the title, the 'objective' would be to show African influence in Greece.
But, let's help you out by substituting 'Black' influence.
The question remains..... exactly what are you disputing?
quote:I fail to understand your confusion
Correction: You fail to answer my question.
quote:Quote: Example from CL Brace: "terms like caucasoid, negroid and mongoloid are worse than usless".
quote: The fact is, I don’t give a sh*t what Mr. Brace thinks about that or anything else.
Well, that's certainly a scholarly approach.
quote:The fact is, White people created a RACE based world, people like me are only playing the game by their rules
Would that define -> slave?
quote:Definition: The Neolithic Revolution was the first agricultural revolution—the transition from nomadic hunting and gathering communities and bands, to agriculture and settlement.
Quote: If so then this would imply that 'caucasians' played no role in the Neolithic revolution which spread FROM Southern Europe to the North prior to 1,200 BC.
Before the Neolithic revolution, considered in ws.t discourse to be the birth of 'civilisation', eurassians are only stone age, often cave dwelling, hunter gatherers.
quote:I think by definition Cro-Magnons (the only non-Black Humanoids there at the time), are “Cave Men”.
Oh really?
Thought Posted: African Exodus The Origins of Modern Humanity By Christopher Stringer and Robin McKie Owl Books Page 162 "Nor does the picture get any clearer when we move on to the Cro-Magnons, the presumed ancestors of Modern Europeans. Some were more like present-day Australians or Africans, judged by objective anatomical categorizations, as is the case with some early modern skulls from the Upper Cave at Zhoukoudian in China
quote:
As far as is known, Cave men did not engage in agriculture.
Ok?
quote:Quote: So you are saying 'non-caucasians' [whatever that means] brought 'civilisation' to Europe (?)
No: I am NOT saying that: I think it more likely that they CREATED civilization in Europe.
So the 'non caucasians' were civilised prior to migrating to Europe, or no?
quote:Quote: Is is possible that these 'non caucasians' also introduced African paternity and autosomes such as Benin HBS along with civiliation.... to Europe?
In my own mind, anyone attempting to make the case either way, (with the science we now have), is a fool. Here is why: We know with certainty, that Blacks inhabited the Eastern Plains, (as a result of the second great migration).
Eastern plains of what? When? Certainty? Why?
quote: This accounts for the difference in complexion between Caucasians and MOST Mongols (some are quite pale).
^ According to whom? Is there any source for any of these statements you make?
quote:There was no physical barrier separating Blacks and Caucasians, so who knows what happened.
^Non-sequitur, and nonsensical.
quote: Caucasians and Blacks were again thrown together as Caucasians migrated into Southern Europe.
Where do think the ancestors of whits lived during Europes Ice ages when Northern Europe was uninhabited?
quote: Finally: a large part of the Roman contingent occupying Britain was Black, (this from British T.V.).
Yes there were Black in Rome, and some would have occupied Britain. I don't see the relevance though to the topic.
quote: Plus, the untold other occasions when they were thrown together, makes it impossible to say when or how genes were exchanged.
This makes no sense whatsoever.
Please think about what you are saying.
- You are claiming that Blacks and whites were mixed together in Europe.
- You are documenting that fact in terms of specific historical events [Rome's occupation of Britain].
You then turn around and claim it is -impossible to know when or how- Blacks and whites in Europe were mixed together, even though you just [supposedly] documented such.
quote:Originally posted by KemsonReloaded: As I've said many times before, Black Africans were the Ancient Greeks who built Ancient Greece which later fell only to be occupied new people. For crying out loud, Greece is a ferry ride from Egypt. Commonsense isn't that common anymore but I believe we can instill it back.
The only thing I am not sure of is how far Greece is from Egypt in minutes or hours.
What absolute nonesense. Do you really believe that? Man put down the crack pipe!
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Rasol: I suggest that you begin at the top, and read the entire thread over again. Something has obviously been lost to you in the translation. If after that, you still don't understand, then please ask someone else to help you.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Greece has African influence but that is a far cry from being built by Black Africans. Demic diffusion of agriculture from Africa, writing systems from Semitic people but with obviously independent and uniquely Greek ingenuity to produce something magnificently spectacular.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
The people from Europe who built the early civilizations there were white Europeans. Make no mistake about that. They adopted some of the traits and techniques that existed in far older cultures elsewhere, through trade and direct influence. However, they were still predominately white Europeans. In fact, one must separate the cultures of Minoan Crete and the Etruscans from later Greece and Rome. The former had more direct influence in terms of populations from Africa and Asia, whereas the latter had more indirect influence in terms of trade and ideas on the mainland. Classical Greece and Rome did not come about until long after those other earlier cultures and things had changed a lot in the intervening time period.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by osirion: What absolute nonesense. Do you really believe that? Man put down the crack pipe!
Despite how you may feel, it will come to light that Black African originally built and inhabited Ancient Greece before re-occupation by foreigners/mixed descendants.
The architectural ideas of Doric, Ionic and Corinthian are simplified/dumbed-down versions of Ancient Kemet's Lotus, Palm and Papyrus columns. There's nothing original about most things in Europe and Western nations that ancient Black Africans haven't built and laid the foundation for.
Even though my views are different from others, are their multiple realities? If so, how can their be? For osirion, in his replay to me, some of your reality (or lack of) has allowed you to associate Black people with crack. Assuming he was Black, I would give him an advice. In a great line from the great film, "The Great Debater", Melvin B. Tolson, played by Denzel Washington asks Hamilton Burgess, played by Jermaine Williams: "Would you punch yourself in a street fight Mr. Burgess?" Mr. Burgess thinks briefly and replies: "No sir." then his processor, Melvin B. Tolson says: "Then don't punch yourself in a word fight. You don't have to make fun of yourself."
Posts: 213 | From: New York City, USA | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by osirion: What absolute nonesense. Do you really believe that? Man put down the crack pipe!
Despite how you may feel, it will come to light that Black African originally built and inhabited Ancient Greece before re-occupation by foreigners/mixed descendants.
The architectural ideas of Doric, Ionic and Corinthian are simplified/dumbed-down versions of Ancient Kemet's Lotus, Palm and Papyrus columns. There's nothing original about most things in Europe and Western nations that ancient Black Africans haven't built and laid the foundation for.
Even though my views are different from others, are their multiple realities? If so, how can their be? For osirion, in his replay to me, some of your reality (or lack of) has allowed you to associate Black people with crack. Assuming he was Black, I would give him an advice. In a great line from the great film, "The Great Debater", Melvin B. Tolson, played by Denzel Washington asks Hamilton Burgess, played by Jermaine Williams: "Would you punch yourself in a street fight Mr. Burgess?" Mr. Burgess thinks briefly and replies: "No sir." then his processor, Melvin B. Tolson says: "Then don't punch yourself in a word fight. You don't have to make fun of yourself."
This information is wrong. Greece and other European civilizations were not built by black Africans. Many things that they had did come from Africans. That's why it's called influence. They were still creative in their own right.
Posts: 603 | From: Mobile, Alabama | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ LOL The problem is when people don't understand the different time periods and peoples who lived in them such as European 'Cro-magnons' of the Paleolithic vs. Europeans and African migrants of the Neolithic. Compound this with the fact, that certain individuals like Kemson are caught up in racist tit-for-tat and you get this nonsense of African civilizations in Europe and elsewhere. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Ebony Allen: [QUOTE]This information is wrong. Greece and other European civilizations were not built by black Africans. Many things that they had did come from Africans. That's why it's called influence. They were still creative in their own right.
Yet ever kind of detailed rebuttal one can muster up as support of the perfection of wrong above can and will be argued to the ground till their is no answers, but in betweens and grays. Every intense and exhaustive argument I have ever encountered regarding ancient B.C. era histories either lead to in-betweens leaning to some dark unknown race or possibly Black but not Negro. Which means the sources of such perceptions are only projecting their version of what reality is against what is real. It is their right, but it, perceptions of reality, is a non-exclusive right that every human naturally and instinctively posses. Perceived realities, against the true and raw state of the "one reality" which existed before humans and still exists unmodified, is always against evidence of any truth in a raw state. When perceived realitites has taken root of the foundational psyche of humans, a pseudo or naive belief system is formed. The action part of the conscience isn't fully aware of this because it is a foundation of consciousness itself.
So I say, even if "influenced", the time it has taken for that truth of being influence to be, somewhat excepted, is a good historical reference for assuming the time it may take for many to see all of the truth come to light.
Ebony Allen is correct but that perception can't be proven. At best, it buys more time for some to digest what they perceive as shocking new ideas. Time is generous in its abundance, so I worry not.
Posts: 213 | From: New York City, USA | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by KemsonReloaded: Even if "influenced", the time it has taken for that truth of being influence to be somewhat excepted is a good historical reference for assuming the time it will take to see all of the truth come to light. Time is generous in its abundance, so I worry not.
So basically you have no evidence that Africans founded and built ancient Greece? Just say it and get it into the open.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Charlie Bass, correct. Just as others have no evidence that Whites, Arabs, some Mediterranean or purple people built ancient Greece. But if we decided to go on a path of discovery and research, following the guide of Martin Bernal and Mary Lefkowitz's "Black Athena Debate", I think we quickly find that only one perceived reality is well in line with certain evidences and logical correctness. If we decide to remove all and any evidences from such a debate, then it is free for all and may the best gimmick reality presenter win.
Posts: 213 | From: New York City, USA | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Yet ever kind of detailed rebuttal one can muster up as support of the perfection of wrong above can and will be argued to the ground till their is no answers.
^ Wow. Kemson, have to learn to stop talking to hear yourself, and start talking to communicate with others. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sorry, but my own grammatical and spelling errors peeves me sometimes as I'm always thinking faster than I speed type, but in correction (slow typing), I meant to say:
quote:Originally posted by Ebony Allen: This information is wrong. Greece and other European civilizations were not built by black Africans. Many things that they had did come from Africans. That's why it's called influence. They were still creative in their own right.
Yet every kind of detailed rebuttal will be mustered up as support for a perception of wrong such as the quote above. Debates will be argued to the ground till there is no answers, but in betweens and grays.
Posts: 213 | From: New York City, USA | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The people from Europe who built the early civilizations there were white Europeans. Make no mistake about that. They adopted some of the traits and techniques that existed in far older cultures elsewhere, through trade and direct influence. However, they were still predominately white Europeans. In fact, one must separate the cultures of Minoan Crete and the Etruscans from later Greece and Rome. The former had more direct influence in terms of populations from Africa and Asia, whereas the latter had more indirect influence in terms of trade and ideas on the mainland. Classical Greece and Rome did not come about until long after those other earlier cultures and things had changed a lot in the intervening time period.
Maybe this is what Afrocentrics should articulate more because this summary seems to be more concise .
Posts: 87 | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Kemson Grecian civilization was founded by Blacks from Africa. These Blacks took civilization to Greece and the contemporary Europeans invaded the territory and later took there creations as their own. Below are web sites discussing this fact.
quote:Originally posted by KemsonReloaded: Sorry, but my own grammatical and spelling errors peeves me sometimes as I'm always thinking faster than I speed type, but in correction (slow typing), I meant to say:
quote:Originally posted by Ebony Allen: This information is wrong. Greece and other European civilizations were not built by black Africans. Many things that they had did come from Africans. That's why it's called influence. They were still creative in their own right.
Yet every kind of detailed rebuttal will be mustered up as support for a perception of wrong such as the quote above. Debates will be argued to the ground till there is no answers, but in betweens and grays.
posted
^ More distortion that is just as bad as that by Eurocentrists. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Clyde and Kemson are just as worse as the whites on stormfront who believe that the original Ethiopians in the Bible who created those wondrous civilizations were white. They believe that Cush was a white man.
Posts: 603 | From: Mobile, Alabama | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Ebony Allen: Clyde and Kemson are just as worse as the whites on stormfront who believe that the original Ethiopians in the Bible who created those wondrous civilizations were white. They believe that Cush was a white man.
You don't know anything about me. I am not a racist.
I demand that you present evidence that I have made any statements not supported by evidence.
I want you to present the evidence now or give me an apology.
quote:Originally posted by Ebony Allen: Clyde and Kemson are just as worse as the whites on stormfront who believe that the original Ethiopians in the Bible who created those wondrous civilizations were white. They believe that Cush was a white man.
You don't know anything about me. I am not a racist.
I demand that you present evidence that I have made any statements not supported by evidence.
I want you to present the evidence now or give me an apology.
.
Most of your statements are not widely accepted, and your evidence are quite shaky. And yes you are indeed a racialist, you have , in several occasions, classified different ancient artifacts from asia, asia minor, balkan and central america as of portraying mande/kushites and this is in most cases entirely based on features you percieve as negroid/mande/kushite.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
Why don't you present the evidences that Clyde is racist? And one thing more. There are alot of things we don't know yet and need to be discovered, so please, don't bring the Western education/system and their pseudo-science here.
Posts: 2198 | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Ebony Allen: Clyde and Kemson are just as worse as the whites on stormfront who believe that the original Ethiopians in the Bible who created those wondrous civilizations were white. They believe that Cush was a white man.
On the topics of who Ancient Greeks actually were, you'll need to charge Martin Bernal as a racist before you can charge me with racism, and some evidence of this.
Many professionals have theorized that the underpinning and underlining current which developed and still fuels the idea of racism is a perceived sense of genetic survival. Part of the surface result of racism towards Blacks is the attempts in degrading Black intellect (the brain) as inferior to Whites because of Black people's melanin dominant features. Not only is this the farthest thing from the truth, but it also shows that I've never attacked anyone's intellect based on the color of their skin. I may questions one's exposure to a certain amount of education and kind of education, but never attack the human brain. It makes no sense for me to attack the very concentration of might and power every human posses. Despite the greatness in wrong committed against Blacks, it still required some impressive amount of brain work for Europe to take on such negative positions in history towards indigenous peoples, and even more impressive brain work in attempts to sustain the negativity. Does that mean we shouldn't challenge historically established Euro-Western information, especially when the information is lacking or is inconsistent with convincing evidences?
Challenging perceptions of historical based realities, based on Euro-Western racism, is not racist. It is a proper and intellectual process endowed to every human and I intend to use mine. Therefore, I reject the charges made against me by Ebony Allen as unfounded and insufficient.
FYI: Threads needs to have lighter and funner topics (yes, funny as it may sound, "funner" is an actual word!).
Posts: 213 | From: New York City, USA | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've asked you several times already and I'll ask you again: what evidence do you have to support your assertion that the Ancient Greeks were black? Don't expect us to take you seriously until you give us good reason.
That said, despite what I may have said in this forum earlier, I now doubt the Ancient Greeks were really what would we identify today as white. Both their high levels of African and Asian ancestry and their own self-descriptions as darker than Iranians (themselves noticeably swarthier than true whites like me) convince me that they probably had a more "tanned" or "Middle Eastern" appearance. I'm thinking something like these:
In other words, not black, but not really white, either. Now the Romans and Macedonians on the other hand were probably what we would call white since they don't seem to have had so much Afro-Asian admixture that I know of.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:On the topics of who Ancient Greeks actually were, you'll need to charge Martin Bernal as a racist before you can charge me with racism, and some evidence of this.
Mind you, Bernal doesn't actually state that the Ancient Greeks were Black.
He does state that Greek culture owes a substantial debt to semites and Africans - ie African influence, which is certainly true.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Ebony Allen: Clyde and Kemson are just as worse as the whites on stormfront who believe that the original Ethiopians in the Bible who created those wondrous civilizations were white. They believe that Cush was a white man.
You don't know anything about me. I am not a racist.
I demand that you present evidence that I have made any statements not supported by evidence.
I want you to present the evidence now or give me an apology.
.
I'm not giving you an apology. You claim ancient Asians and Europeans were blacks of African descent when they weren't.
Posts: 603 | From: Mobile, Alabama | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:On the topics of who Ancient Greeks actually were, you'll need to charge Martin Bernal as a racist before you can charge me with racism, and some evidence of this.
Mind you, Bernal doesn't actually state that the Ancient Greeks were Black.
He does state that Greek culture owes a substantial debt to semites and Africans - ie African influence, which is certainly true.
Indeed. All archaeological and anthropological evidence confirms that the Greeks and their culture are the result of indigenous Europeans infused with Neolithic migrants of African and Southwest Asian descent. Genetics verifies this with E and J lineages present as well as typical European lineages. These Neolithic migrants were eventually absorbed into the predominantly native European population which is why by Classical times there are no portraits of 'black' Greeks despite what Kemson or Clyde believe.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ...by Classical times there are no portraits of 'black' Greeks despite what Kemson or Clyde believe.
I don't think there are suppose to be portraits (paintings) or at least not in any significant amount over physical sculptures showing natural time and weather erosions, and not perfectly symmetrical, newly sculpted pieces. Because of the era we're talking about (BC), people need to realize that portrait/paintings/sketches/illustrations used as evidence of who the original builders of ancient Greece were, should be questioned and immediately sent for independent lab testing for authenticity, unless scientific test details are provided with evidence(s).
Posts: 213 | From: New York City, USA | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Ebony Allen: Clyde and Kemson are just as worse as the whites on stormfront who believe that the original Ethiopians in the Bible who created those wondrous civilizations were white. They believe that Cush was a white man.
You don't know anything about me. I am not a racist.
I demand that you present evidence that I have made any statements not supported by evidence.
I want you to present the evidence now or give me an apology.
.
I'm not giving you an apology. You claim ancient Asians and Europeans were blacks of African descent when they weren't.
This is just a statement. In any argument you must present facts to back up your proposition. I don't see any facts.
I have presented evidence confirming that many ancient Greeks were Black.
quote:On the topics of who Ancient Greeks actually were, you'll need to charge Martin Bernal as a racist before you can charge me with racism, and some evidence of this.
Mind you, Bernal doesn't actually state that the Ancient Greeks were Black.
He does state that Greek culture owes a substantial debt to semites and Africans - ie African influence, which is certainly true.
Indeed. All archaeological and anthropological evidence confirms that the Greeks and their culture are the result of indigenous Europeans infused with Neolithic migrants of African and Southwest Asian descent. Genetics verifies this with E and J lineages present as well as typical European lineages. These Neolithic migrants were eventually absorbed into the predominantly native European population which is why by Classical times there are no portraits of 'black' Greeks despite what Kemson or Clyde believe.
There are many pictures of Black Greeks at the website below:
posted
Clyde, it doesn't help your case that you're using evidence that comes solely from your website, could you post some sources that are independent and peer-reviewed from your website?
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Charlie Bass: Clyde, it doesn't help your case that you're using evidence that comes solely from your website, could you post some sources that are independent and peer-reviewed from your website?
This is your opinion. Your comment shows that you have never published a work of your own.
quote:
Research article Mitochondrial lineage M1 traces an early human backflow to Africa Ana M González* 1 , José M Larruga* 1 , Khaled K Abu-Amero2 , Yufei Shi2 , José Pestano3 and Vicente M Cabrera1
1Department of Genetics, Faculty of Biology, University of La Laguna, Tenerife 38271, Spain 2Department of Genetics, King Faisal Specialist Hospital & Research Center, Riyadh 11211, Saudi Arabia 3Department of Genetics, Faculty of Medicine, University of Las Palmas de Gran Canaria, Las Palmas 35080, Spain
Abstract Background The out of Africa hypothesis has gained generalized consensus. However, many specific questions remain unsettled. To know whether the two M and N macrohaplogroups that colonized Eurasia were already present in Africa before the exit is puzzling. It has been proposed that the east African clade M1 supports a single origin of haplogroup M in Africa. To test the validity of that hypothesis, the phylogeographic analysis of 13 complete mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences and 261 partial sequences belonging to haplogroup M1 was carried out.
References Stringer CB, Andrews T: Genetic and fossil evidence for the origin of modern humans.
Science 1988, 239:1263-1268. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Hammer MF, Karafet T, Rasanayagam A, Wood ET, Altheide TK, Jenkins T, Griffiths RC, Templeton AR, Zegura SL: Out of Africa and back again: nested cladistic analysis of human Y chromosome variation.
Mol Biol Evol 1998, 15:427-441. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Underhill PA, Shen P, Lin AA, Jin L, Passarino G, Yang WH, Kauffman E, Bonné-Tamir B, Bertranpetit J, Francalacci P, Ibrahim M, Jenkins T, Kidd JR, Mehdi SQ, Seielstad MT, Wells RS, Piazza A, Davis RW, Feldman MW, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Oefner PJ: Y chromosome sequence variation and the history of human populations.
Nat Genet 2000, 26(3):358-361. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Cann RL, Stoneking M, Wilson AC: Mitochondrial DNA and human evolution.
Nature 1987, 325:31-36. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Chen YS, Torroni A, Excoffier L, Santachiara-Benerecetti AS, Wallace DC: Analysis of mtDNA variation in Africa populations reveals the most ancient of all human continent-specific haplogroups.
Am J Hum Genet 1995, 57:133-149. PubMed Abstract | PubMed Central Full Text |
Return to text
Ingman M, Kaessmann H, Pääbo S, Gyllensten U: Mitochondrial genome variation and the origin of modern humans.
Nature 2000, 408:708-713. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
***Maca-Meyer N, González AM, Larruga JM, Flores C, Cabrera VM: Major genomic mitochondrial lineages delineate early human expansions.
BMC Genetics 2001, 2:13. PubMed Abstract | BioMed Central Full Text | PubMed Central Full Text |
Return to text
Mishmar D, Ruiz-Pesini E, Golik P, Macaulay V, Clark AG, Hosseini S, Brandon M, Easley K, Chen E, Brown MD, Sukernik RI, Olckers A, Wallace DC: Natural selection shaped regional mtDNA variation in humans.
P Natl Acad Sci USA 2003, 100:171-176. Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Knight A, Underhill PA, Mortensen HM, Zhivotovsky LA, Lin AA, Henn BM, Louis D, Ruhlen M, Mountain JL: African Y chromosome and mtDNA divergence provides insight into the history of click languages.
Curr Biol 2003, 13:464-473. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Clark JD, Beyene Y, Woldegrabiel G, Hart WK, Renne PR, Gilbert H, Defleur A, Suwa G, Katoh S, Ludwig KR, Boisserie JR, Asfaw B, White TD: Stratigraphic, chronological and behavioural contexts of Pleistocene Homo sapiens from Middle Awash, Ethiopia.
Nature 2003, 423:747-752. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
White TD, Asfaw B, Degusta D, Gilbert H, Richards GD, Suwas G, Howell FC: Pleistocene Homo sapiens from Middle Awash, Ethiopia.
Nature 2003, 423:742-747. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Walter RC, Buffler RT, Bruggemann JH, Guillaume MM, Berhe SM, Negassi B, Libsekal Y, Cheng H, von Cosel R, Neraudeau D, Gagnon M: Early human occupation of the Red Sea coast of Eritrea during the last interglacial.
Nature 2000, 405:65-69. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Underhill PA, Passarino G, Lin AA, Shen P, Lahr MM, Foley RA, Oefner PJ, Cavalli-Sforza LL: The phylogeography of Y chromosome binary haplotypes and the origins of modern human populations.
Ann Hum Genet 2001, 65:43-62. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Watson E, Forster P, Richards M, Bandelt HJ: Mitochondrial footprints of human expansions in Africa.
Am J Hum Genet 1997, 61:691-704. PubMed Abstract | PubMed Central Full Text |
Return to text
Metspalu M, Kivisild T, Metspalu E, Parik J, Hudjashov G, Kaldma K, Serk P, Karmin M, Behar DM, Gilbert MT, Endicott P, Mastana S, Papiha SS, Skorecki K, Torroni A, Villems R: Most of the extant mtDNA boundaries in South and Southwest Asia were likely hsaped during the initial settlement of Eurasia by anatomically modern humans.
BMC Genetics 2004, 5:26. PubMed Abstract | BioMed Central Full Text | PubMed Central Full Text |
Return to text
Palanichamy MG, Sun C, Agrawal S, Bandelt HJ, Kong QP, Khan F, Wang CY, Chaudhuri TK, Palla V, Zhang YP: Phylogeny of mitochondrial DNA macrohaplogroup N in India, based on complete sequencing: implications for the peopling of South Asia.
Am J Hum Genet 2004, 75:966-978. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text | PubMed Central Full Text |
Return to text
Ingman M, Gyllensten U: Mitochondrial genome variation and evolutionary history of Australian and New Guinean aborigines.
Genome Res 2003, 13:1600-1606. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text | PubMed Central Full Text |
Return to text
***Tanaka M, Cabrera VM, González AM, Larruga JM, Takeyasu T, Fuku N, Guo LJ, Hirose R, Fujita Y, Kurata M, Shinoda K, Umetsu K, Yamada Y, Oshida Y, Sato Y, Hattori N, Mizuno Y, Arai Y, Hirose N, Ohta S, Ogawa O, Tanaka Y, Kawamori R, Shamoto-Nagai M, Maruyama W, Shimokata H, Suzuki R, Shimodaira H: Mitochondrial genome variation in Eastern Asia and the peopling of Japan.
Genome Res 2004, 14:1832-1850. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text | PubMed Central Full Text |
Return to text
Forster P, Torroni A, Renfrew C, Röhl A: Phylogenetic star contraction applied to Asian and Papuan mtDNA evolution.
Mol Biol Evol 2001, 18:1864-1881. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Kivisild T, Rootsi S, Metspalu M, Mastana S, Kaldma K, Parik J, Metspalu E, Adojaan M, Tolk HV, Stepanov V, Golge M, Usanga E, Papiha SS, Cinnioglu C, King R, Cavalli-Sforza L, Underhill PA, Villems R: The genetic heritage of the earliest settlers persists both in Indian tribal and caste populations.
Am J Hum Genet 2003, 72:313-332. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text | PubMed Central Full Text |
Return to text
Kivisild T, Reidla M, Metspalu E, Rosa A, Brehm A, Pennarun E, Parik J, Geberhiwot T, Usanga E, Willems R: Ethiopian mitochondrial DNA heritage: Tracking gene flow across and around the Gate of Tears.
Am J Hum Genet 2004, 75:752-770. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text | PubMed Central Full Text |
Return to text
Quintana-Murci L, Semino O, Bandelt HJ, Passarino G, McElreavey K, Santachiara-Benerecetti AA: Genetic evidence of an early exit of Homo sapiens sapiens from Africa through eastern Africa.
Nat Genet 1999, 23:437-441. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Tambets K, Kivisild T, Metspalu E, Parik J, Kaldma K, Laos S, Tolk HV, Gölge M, Demirtas H, Geberhiwot T, Papiha SS, de Stefano GF, Villems R: The topology of the maternal lineages of the Anatolian and Trans-Caucasus populations and the peopling of Europe: Some preliminary considerations. In Archaeogenetics: DNA and the population prehistory of Europe. Edited by: Renfrew C, Boyle K. Cambridge, UK: McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research, University of Cambridge; 2000:219-235.
Return to text
Rajkumar R, Banerjee J, Gunturi HB, Trivedi R, Kashyap VK: Phylogeny and antiquity of M macrohaplogroup inferred from complete mtDNA sequence of Indian specific lineages.
BMC Evol Biol 2005, 5:26. PubMed Abstract | BioMed Central Full Text | PubMed Central Full Text |
Return to text
Sun C, Kong QP, Palanichamy MG, Agrawal S, Bandelt HJ, Yao YG, Khan F, Zhu CL, Chaudhuri TK, Zhang YP: The dazzling array of basal branches in the mtDNA macrohaplogroup M from India as inferred from complete genomes.
Mol Biol Evol 2006, 23:683-690. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Shen P, Lavi T, Kivisild T, Chou V, Sengun D, Gefel D, Shpirer I, Woolf E, Hillel J, Feldman MW, Oefner PJ: Reconstruction of patrilineages and matrilineages of Samaritans and other Israeli populations from Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA sequence variation.
Hum Mutation 2004, 24:248-260. Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Quintana-Murci L, Chaix R, Wells RS, Behar DM, Sayar H, Scozzari R, Rengo C, Al-Zahery N, Semino O, Santachiara-Benerecetti AS, Coppa A, Ayub Q, Mohyuddin A, Tyler-Smith C, Qasim Mehdi S, Torroni A, McElreavey K: Where West meets East: The complex mtDNA landscape of the Southwest and Central Asian corridor.
Am J Hum Genet 2004, 74:827-845. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text | PubMed Central Full Text |
Return to text
Kivisild T, Kaldma K, Metspalu M, Parik J, Papiha SS, Villems R: The place of the Indian mitochondrial DNA variants in the global network of maternal lineages and the peopling of the Old World. In Genomic diversity. Edited by: Deka R, Papiha SS. New York: Kluwer/Academic/Plenum Publishers; 1999:135-152.
Return to text
Bermisheva MA, Kutuev IA, Korshunova TY, Dubova NA, Villems R, Khusnutdinova EK: Phylogeographic analysis of mitochondrial DNA in the Nogays: A strong mixture of maternal lineages from eastern and western Eurasia.
Molec Biol 2004, 38:516-523. Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Comas D, Calafell F, Mateu E, Pérez-Lezaun A, Bosch E, Martínez-Arias R, Clarimon J, Facchini F, Fiori G, Luiselli D, Pettener D, Bertranpetit J: Trading genes along the silk road: mtDNA sequences and the origin of Central Asian populations.
Am J Hum Genet 1998, 63:1824-1838. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text | PubMed Central Full Text |
Return to text
Yao YG, Zhang YP: Phylogeographic analysis of mtDNA variation in four ethnic populations from Yunnan province: new data and a reappraisal.
J Hum Genet 2002, 47:311-318. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Fucharoen G, Fucharoen S, Horai S: Mitochondrial DNA polymorphism in Thailand.
J Hum Genet 2001, 46:115-125. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Yao YG, Kong QP, Bandelt HJ, Kivisild T, Zhang YP: Phylogeographic differentiation of mitochondrial DNA in Han chinese.
Am J Hum Genet 2002, 70:635-651. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text | PubMed Central Full Text |
Return to text
Malyarchuk B, Derenko M, Grzybowski T, Lunkina A, Czarny J, Rychkow S, Morozova I, Denisova G, Miscicka-Sliwka D: Differentiation of mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosomes in Russian populations.
Hum Biol 2004, 76:877-900. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Richards M, Macaulay V, Hickey E, Vega E, Sykes B, Guida V, Rengo C, Sellitto D, Cruciani F, Kivisild T, Villems R, Thomas M, Rychkov S, Rychkov O, Rychkov Y, Golge M, Dimitrov D, Hill E, Bradley D, Romano V, Cali F, Vona G, Demaine A, Papiha S, Triantaphyllidis C, Stefanescu G, Hatina J, Belledi M, Di Rienzo A, Novelletto A, Oppenheim A, Norby S, Al-Zaheri N, Santachiara-Benerecetti S, Scozari R, Torroni A, Bandelt HJ: Tracing European founder lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA pool.
Am J Hum Genet 2000, 67:1251-1276. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text | PubMed Central Full Text |
Return to text
Thomas MG, Weale ME, Jones AL, Richards M, Smith A, Redhead N, Torroni A, Scozzari R, Gratix F, Tarekegn A, Wilson JF, Capelli C, Bradman N, Goldstein DB: Founding mothers of Jewish communities: Geographically separated Jewish groups were independently founded by very few female ancestors.
Am J Hum Genet 2002, 70:1411-1420. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text | PubMed Central Full Text |
Return to text
Behar DM, Hammer MF, Garrigan D, Villems R, Bonne-Tamir B, Richards M, Gurwitz D, Rosengarten D, Kaplan M, Pergola SD, Quintana-Murci L, Skorecki K: MtDNA evidence for a genetic bottleneck in the early history of the Ashkenazi Jewish population.
Eur J Hum Genet 2004, 12:355-364. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Behar DM, Metspalu E, Kivisild T, Achilli A, Hadid Y, Tzur S, Pereira L, Amorim A, Quintana-Murci L, Majamaa K, Herrnstadt C, Howell N, Balanovsky O, Kutuev I, Pshenichnov A, Gurwitz D, Bonne-Tamir B, Torroni A, Villems R, Skorecki K: The matrilineal ancestry of Ashkenazi Jewry: Portrait of a recent founder event.
Am J Hum Genet 2006, 78:487-497. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text | PubMed Central Full Text |
Return to text
Torroni A, Rengo C, Guida V, Cruciani F, Sellito D, Coppa A, Calderon FL, Simionati B, Valle G, Richards M, Macaulay V, Scozzari R: Do the four clades of the mtDNA haplogroup L2 evolve at different rates?
Am J Hum Genet 2001, 69:1348-1356. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text | PubMed Central Full Text |
Return to text
***Maca-Meyer N, González AM, Pestano J, Flores C, Larruga JM, Cabrera VM: Mitochondrial DNA transit between West Asia and North Africa inferred from U6 phylogeography.
BMC Genetics 2003, 4:15. PubMed Abstract | BioMed Central Full Text | PubMed Central Full Text |
Return to text
Howell N, Elson JL, Turnbull DM, Herrnstadt C: African haplogroup L mtDNA sequences show violations of clock-like evolution.
Mol Biol Evol 2004, 21:1843-1854. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Alzualde A, Izaguirre N, Alonso S, Alonso A, Albarrán C, Azcarate A, de la Rúa C: Insights into the "isolation" of the Basques: mtDNA lineages from the historical site of Aldaieta (6th–7th centuries AD).
Am J Phys Anthrop 2006, 130:394-404. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
***Maca-Meyer N, Arnay M, Rando JC, Flores C, González AM, Cabrera VM, Larruga JM: Ancient mtDNA analysis and the origin of the Guanches.
Eur J Hum Genet 2004, 12:155-162. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
***Rando JC, Cabrera VM, Larruga JM, Hernández M, González AM, Pinto F, Bandelt HJ: Phylogeographic patterns of mtDNA reflecting the colonization of the Canary Islands.
Ann Hum Genet 1999, 63:413-428. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Picornell A, Gómez-Barbeito L, Tomas C, Castro JA, Ramón MM: Mitochondrial DNA HVRI variation in Balearic populations.
Am J Phys Anthropol 2005, 128:119-130. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Pergola SD: The geography of Italian Jews: countrywide patterns. In In Studi sull'ebraismo italiano. Edited by: Toaff E. Roma: Instituto Superiore di Studi Ebraici del Collegio Rabbinico Italiano; 1974:93-128.
Return to text
Cali F, Le Roux MG, D'Anna R, Flugy A, De Leo G, Chiavetta V, Ayala GF, Romano V: MtDNA control region and RFLP data for Sicily and France.
Int J Legal Med 2001, 114:229-231. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Forster P, Cali F, Röhl A, Metspalu E, D'Anna R, Mirisola M, De Leo G, Flugy A, Salerno A, Ayala G, Kouvatsi A, Villems R, Romano V: Continental and subcontinental distributions of mtDNA control region types.
Int J Legal Med 2002, 116:99-108. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Brehm A, Pereira L, Kivisild T, Amorim A: Mitochondrial portraits of the Madeira and Accores archipelagos witness different genetic pools of its settlers.
Hum Genet 2003, 114:77-86. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Santos C, Lima M, Montiel R, Angles N, Pires L, Abade A, Aluja MaP: Genetic structure and origin of peopling in the Azores Islands (Portugal): The view from mtDNA.
Ann Hum Genet 2003, 67:433-456. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Passarino G, Semino O, Quintana-Murci L, Excoffier L, Hammer M, Santachiara-Benerecetti AS: Different genetic components in the Ethiopian population, identified by mtDNA and Y-chromosome polymorphisms.
Am J Hum Genet 1998, 62:420-434. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text | PubMed Central Full Text |
Return to text
Roychoudhury S, Roy S, Basu A, Banerjee R, Vishwanathan H, Usha Rani MV, Sil SK, Mitra M, Majumder PP: Genomic structures and population histories of linguistically distinct tribal groups of India.
Hum Genet 2001, 109:339-350. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Olivieri A, Achilli A, Pala M, Battaglia V, Fornarino S, Al-Zahery N, Scozzari R, Cruciani F, Behar DM, Dugoujon JM, Coudray C, Santachiara-Benerecetti AS, Semino O, Bandelt HJ, Torroni A: The mtDNA legacy of the Levantine early Upper Palaeolithic in Africa.
Science 2006, 314:1767-1770. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Herrnstadt C, Elson JE, Fahy E, Preston G, Turnbull DM, Anderson C, Ghosh SS, Olefsky JM, Beal MF, Davis RE, Howell N: Reduced median-network analysis of complete mitochondrial DNA coding-region sequences for the major African, Asian and European haplogroups.
Am J Hum Genet 2002, 70:1152-1171. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text | PubMed Central Full Text |
Return to text
Kivisild T, Shen P, Wall D, Do B, Sung R, Davis K, Passarino G, Underhill PA, Scharfe C, Torroni A, Scozzari R, Modiano D, Coppa A, de Knijff P, Feldman M, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Oefner PJ: The role of selection in the evolution of human mitochondrial genomes.
Genetics 2006, 172:373-387. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text | PubMed Central Full Text |
Mol Biol Evol 1999, 16:37-48. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Schneider S, Roessli D, Excoffier L: Arlequin ver. 2.000: A software for population genetics data analysis Genetics and Biometry Laboratory. Switzerland: University of Geneva; 2000.
Return to text
Morral N, Bertranpetit J, Estivill X, Nunes V, Casals T, Giménez J, Reis A, Varon-Mateeva R, Macek M, Kalaydjieva L, et al.: The origin of the major cystic fibrosis mutation (ΔF508) in European populations.
Nat Genet 1994, 7:169-175. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Forster P, Harding R, Torroni A, Bandelt HJ: Origin and evolution of Native American mtDNA variation: a reappraisal.
Am J Hum Genet 1996, 59:935-945. PubMed Abstract | PubMed Central Full Text |
Return to text
Saillard J, Forster P, Lynnerup N, Bandelt HJ, Norby S: MtDNA variation among Greenland eskimos: the edge of the Beringian expansion.
Am J Hum Genet 2000, 67:718-726. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text | PubMed Central Full Text |
Return to text
Anderson S, Bankier AT, Barrell BG, de Bruijn MH, Coulson AR, Drouin J, Eperon IC, Nierlich DP, Roe BA, Sanger F, Schreier PH, Smith AJ, Staden R, Young IG: Sequence and organisation of the human mitochondrial genome.
Nature 1981, 290:457-465. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Andrews RM, Kubacka I, Chinnery PF, Lightowlers RN, Turnbull DM, Howell N: Reanalysis and revision of the Cambridge reference sequence for human mitochondrial DNA.
Nat Genet 1999, 23:147. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text |
Return to text
Reidla M, Kivisild T, Metspalu E, Kaldma K, Tambets K, Tolk HV, Parik J, Loogväli EL, Derenko M, Malyarchuk B, Bermisheva M, Zhadanov S, Pennarun E, Gubina M, Golubenko M, Damba L, Fedorova S, Gusar V, Grechanina E, Mikerezi I, Moisan JP, Chaventré A, Khusnutdinova E, Osipova L, Stepanov V, Voevoda M, Achilli A, Rengo C, Rickards O, De Stefano GF, Papiha S, Beckman L, Janicijevic B, Rudan P, Anagnou N , Michalodimitrakis E, Koziel S, Usanga E, Geberhiwot T, Herrnstadt C, Howell N, Torroni A, Villems R: Origin and diffusion of mtDNA haplogroup X.
Am J Hum Genet 2003, 73:1178-1190. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text | PubMed Central Full Text |
Return to text
Above the leading author Gonzalez cites a number of her works. Given your reasoning we should reject this research. Your reasoning is that of a novice, someone who is looking at the world of research with the eye of the less experienced.
Just about every article you read, if a researcher has written on a subject they cite their own work. There is nothing wrong in citing your research if it is relevant.
There are references on my website that support the research of Greeks being Black. You dispute none of this research you reject it because I made the page this is ignorance and bias--since you will accept papers by Europeans who cite their work.
Moreover, if you dispute the picture why don't you present evidence that the pictures are fake.
If you disagree with the citations present counter evidence. If you lack any evidence just remain silent--that would be the intelligent thing to do.
posted
^ It's a shame they fail to realize that their own psuedo-Afro-scholarship is as damaging as Eurocentrism if not more so to the study of African history.
Luckily most people are too intelligent to fall for such nonsense.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
) (how could I forget, Marcs Germanics from the caucasus who's lineages trace back to Africa)![[Mad]](mad.gif)
SO REDICULOUS! >%O![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic