posted
Posted by Ausar: A common Eurocentric tactic to prove that various famous civlizations were blonde or red haired is to point out that mummies have blonde or red hair. Little do most Eurocentrists know that blonde and redhair in mummies can sometimes be explained by enviromental and archaeological reasons. You can also get such hair coloring from dying. Ancinet Egyptian women and men often used henna which turned their natural hair color reddish colors. This is not only common in Egypt but across Eastern Africa and parts of the so-called Middle East.
Little do people understand there is a logical and scientific explanation to explain the hair color and apperance of mummies. When the body decomposes in solution it turns the mummy into a dehydrated state much like beef jerkey. You cannot tell a race of a mummy simply by looking at the face or any other body structure. The only way any such ethnic affinities of any mummy can be told is through X-ray analysis and by bone structure.
The only X-ray studies that have been done by any anatomist are the early ones during the early 1900's by Sir Grafton Smith and later ones done by James E. Harris and Kent R. Weeks. Harris is a dentist and Weeks is both an Egyptologist and has a PHD in physical anthropology.
As far as genetic material from the mummies, this is very hard to come by,and most of the material has been from ABO blood typing. Very few genetic studies have been conducted on the mummies. Some studies by Sasvo Paabo,a Sweedish geneticist, have been published in various Scientific journals.
DNA material in mummies can only be extract through deep tissues and also through teeth.
See the following for more details about hair,apperance, and genetic studies on mummies.
From: Rogers, Spencer Lee, _Personal identification from human
remains_ 1987, "Hair often survives for a considerable time after
death and can be recognized as to color and to some extent texture. A
study in which hair was buried experimentally in the soil for a two
year period revealed that there was no appreciable change until after
one month, but it became streaked and brittle after one year. Two
years was found to be the maximum duration of Caucasian hair buried
underground." (p.8) On the same page it reads: "The color of eyes
during life cannot be determined from their appearance on a cadaver
since all eyes become a greenish brown shortly after death."
Here is a relevent study about DNA from mummies:
DNA decay rate in papyri and human remains from Egyptian archaeological sites.
Marota I, Basile C, Ubaldi M, Rollo F.
The writing sheets made with strips from the stem (caulis) of papyri (Cyperus papyrus) are one of the most ingenious products of ancient technology.
We extracted DNA from samples of modern papyri varying in age from 0-100 years BP and from ancient specimens from Egypt, with an age-span from 1,300-3,200 years BP.
The copy number of the plant chloroplast DNA in the sheets was determined using a competitive PCR system designed on the basis of a short (90 bp) tract of the chloroplast's ribulose bisphosphate carboxylase large subunit (rbcL) gene sequence.
The results allowed us to establish that the DNA half-life in papyri is about 19- 24 years.
This means that the last DNA fragments will vanish within no more than 532-672 years from the sheets being manufactured. In a parallel investigation, we checked the archaeological specimens for the presence of residual DNA and determined the extent of racemization of aspartic (Asp) acid in both modern and ancient specimens, as a previous report (Poinar et al. [1996], Science 272:864-866) showed that racemization of aspartic acid and DNA decay are linked.
The results confirmed the complete loss of authentic DNA, even in the less ancient (8th century AD) papyri. On the other hand, when the regression for Asp racemization rates in papyri was compared with that for human and animal remains from Egyptian archaeological sites, it proved, quite surprisingly, that the regressions are virtually identical. Our study provides an indirect argument against the reliability of claims about the recovery of authentic DNA from Egyptian mummies and bone remains. Copyright 2002 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
Many Eurocentrics have used the Yuya mummy to often prove that caucasians were predominant in Ancient Kmt. We find this to a claim that is never supported by concrete data. Yuya,an offical in Waset, seems to have had a Eur-Asian origin. The wife of Yuya Thuya,which would later to become the mother of Queen Tiy is of Egyptian stock. Her mummy is morphoogicaly different than that of Yuya's.
Sir Grafton Smith found out when he examined the mummies that Yuya fits the profiles of foreginers than he does of Egyptians.
Here's what anatomist Grafton Elliot Smith wrote about this mummy, after examining it in 1905:
"The form of the face (and especially the nose) is such as we find more commonly in Europe than in Egypt."
Indeed, the distinctly foreign (i.e. "Semitic") characteristics of Yuya's mummy were sufficiently pronounced as to move Egyptian writer Ahmed Osman to speculate, in his book "Stranger in the Valley of the Kings" (Harper * Row, 1987) that Yuya might have been the Hebrew patriarch Joseph
About Thuya which was Yuya's wife:
Like the mummy of her husband the wrappings of the mummy of Thuya had been severly damaged by robbers.
The bandages have been covered with black resin,which still bear the impression of stolen jewerly.
The mummy presents some unusual features for the Period.
The emablimng incision is almost vertical and has been sewn up with a string. No plate covers the wound,which gapes open,exposing the linen packing filling the body cavity.
The arms are fully extended with the palms of the hand flattened against the thighs.
The mummy is of a small old lady with typical Egyptian features who was possibly over fifty when she died.
Thuya has scantly white hair,know turned yellow by the materials used in the embalimng \, On the top her head the hair is very thing much like a pony tail in photographs,are in fact,the remains of the linen wrappings around the head and back of the neck of the mummy
page 112-113
Faces of the Pharoahs
Robert Parthiage
Here is a statement about apperance of mummies:
How can we identify the pharaohs? The pharaohs have been dead for thousands of years.
There are no descriptions of their physical appearance, and even the best preserved royal mummies bear little resemblance to living human beings in their prime.
Egyptian sculptures, however, were almost always inscribed with the names and titles of their owners.
A sufficient number of inscribed statues have survived to allow us to recognize the most important pharaohs, and in most cases it is now possible to identify bodiless heads, which have lost their inscriptions, as specific rulers. http://www.clemusart.com/archive/pharaoh/rosetta/rosefaq.html
Vistors to museums around the world find it fasinating to see the mummified faces of the ancient dead. But although Egyptians mummies often very well preserved,with much of the soft tissue clinging to the skull,the faces inside the wrapping almost certainly are different than what the person must have looked like.
page 32
Egypt revelaed Magazine
other references is Robert Partrige
who wrote the book faces of the pharoahs
***Eurocentrics often use apperance of mummies to determine their racial origins** The following is a Eurocentric fallacy.
see also about hair color:
Microscopic study tells more about the original hair color,which may have faded or been changed by enviromental conditions,the mummification process,or the use of dyes.
The microscope can also reveal details of styling techniques,such as shard blades to cut hair as early as 3000BC.
Hair can be subjected to trade element analysis,usually by neutron activation technique,which can reveal details of diet and nutrictional deficienes,dieases,enviromental pollution,and even the use of drugs or poisons-all of which remain locked in the hair long after they have left the rest of the body.
Page 40
Egypt revelaed
Joann Fletcher
more information about hair:
On Human Hair as a Race Character, Dr Pruner-Bey Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society Vol 6 (1877) p71-
The red hair, on the contrary, seems represented, at least by some individuals, in all known races, whether equatorial or boreal... From what precedes, we arrive at the conclusion that the colour of the hair alone is insufficient to characterise a race... p73-4
The Hair of Earlier Peoples, Don Brothwell and Richard Spearman p427-436 in Science in Archaeology, eds. D Brothwell and E Higgs 1963
Hair is largely made up of the fibrous protein keratin.
This substance is extremely resistant to decomposition and enzymatic digestion, mainly owing to the presence of disulphide cross linkages of the amino acid cystine. These join together the long polypeptide chains of the molecule.
If the crosslinkages are broken by reduction or oxidation, altered keratin is readily attacked by proteolytic enzymes.
This resistance of keratin explains durability of hair in ancient burials...These changes can occur on the living animal; thus atmospheric weathering of the fleece of sheep results in loss of cystine from the exposed tips of the fibres.
Permanent waving alters keratin cross linkages, and these changes have been detected using florescence microscopy.
It is probable that if the preparations employed during mummification contained reducing or oxidizing agents or alkaline substances the hair keratin would be damaged...
Normal human hair had a bluish-green florescence with acridine orange but permanently waved hair had a reddish florescence with associated fractures of the fibres...
Hair bleached with hydrogen peroxide also showed this change due to oxidation of the keratin... in some samples such as predynastic Egyptian hair the whole hair was altered in this way.
by Andrew Wilson
Archaeological Hair
The common misconception that all hair turns red over archaeological timescales has found its way into archaeological folklore. Whilst certain environments such as those producing bog bodies are known to yield hair of a red-brown color, in part because of the breakdown of organic matter and presence of humic acids which impart a brown color to recovered remains, it has commonly been assumed that this happens to all archaeological hair. This concept has been perpetuated by popular nicknames such as "Ginger"--affectionately given to the Predynastic burial with red hair on display in the mummy rooms at the British Museum.
Potential change to hair color can be explained more scientifically by examining the chemistry of melanin which is responsible for hair color in life. All hair contains a mixture in varying concentration of both black-brown eumelanin and red-yellow phaeomelanin pigments, which are susceptible to differential chemical change under certain extreme burial conditions (for example wet reducing conditions, or dry oxidising conditions). Importantly, phaeomelanin is much more stable to environmental conditions than eumelanin, hence the reactions occurring in the burial environment favor the preservation of phaeomelanin, revealing and enhancing the red/ yellow color of hairs containing this pigment. Color changes occur slowly under dry oxidising conditions, such as in the burials in sand at Hierakonpolis. Whether the conditions within the wood and plaster coffin contributed to accelerated color change, or whether this individual naturally had more phaeomelanin pigmentation in his hair is hard to say without further analysis.
posted
How come Rameses is said to have natural red hair? Could he have been a white pharaoh? They examined his hair and concluded that he was born a red head.
Posts: 603 | From: Mobile, Alabama | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote: How come Rameses is said to have natural red hair? Could he have been a white pharaoh? They examined his hair and concluded that he was born a red head.
His hair could have been dyed. Afterall he was in his 70s or 80s when he died. Most people that age have grey hair without dye.
Plus there are Indigenous Africans who have red hair. The same thing with non-brown eyes. Indigenous Africans have those as well. There are even Albinos.
Quit acting like Powder is God.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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Analysis of Hair Samples of Mummies from Semna South, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, (1978) 49: 277-262
As Brothwell and Spearman (‘63) point out, reddish-brown ancient hair is usually the result of partial oxidation of the melanin pigment. This color was seen in a large proportion of the Semna sample, and also noted by Titlbachova and Titlbach (‘77) on Egyptian material, where it also may have resulted from the mummification process. However, the large number of blond hairs that are not associated with the cuticular damage that bleaching produces, probably points to a significantly lighter-haired population than is now present in the Nubian region. Brothwell and Spearman (’63) noted genuinely blond ancient Egyptian samples using reflectance spectrophotometry. Blondism, especially in young children, is common in many darkhaired populations (e.g., Australian, Melanesian), and is still found in some Nubian villages (J. Zabkar, personal communication).
Only one sample (M197) showed cuticular damage and irregularities definitely consistent with bleaching, although bleaching could not be ruled out in some of the blond samples.
quote:Originally posted by Ebony Allen: How come Rameses is said to have natural red hair? Could he have been a white pharaoh? They examined his hair and concluded that he was born a red head.
I don't know but there are many threads on Ramses attesting to his obscure origins. Linguistic dissimilarities are noted in the form of him giving one of his daughters a non-Egyptian/Semitic name and Cranio-Facial patterns even show a definite non-affinity with Egyptians of the previous dynasty leading into question that maybe the Ramsoids were of at least partly foreign extraction.
"Description of X-ray images of Royal Mummies in X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies"
quote:Ramesses II
Father: Seti I, Mother: Queen Mut-Tuy Rounded forehead with sagittal plateau. Slight, rounded glabella. Proclined upper incisors; receding chin with high ANB. Rather long ramus with weak inclination of mandible. Orthognathous.
Compared to say:
quote: "The Elder Lady"
First identified as Queen Tiye
The occipital bun is reminiscent of Mesolithic Nubians (see below). Sagittal plateau, rounded forehead with moderately projecting glabella; globular cranium with high vault. Protrusion of incisors, receding chin and steep mandible. Very vertical zygomatic arches and pronounced maxillary prognathism.
"In summation, the New Kingdom Pharaohs and Queens whose mummies have been recovered bear strong similarity to either contemporary Nubians, as with the XVII and XVIII dynasties, or with Mesolithic-Holocene Nubians, as with the XVIV and XX dynasties. The former dynasties seem to have a strong southern affinity, while the latter possessed evidence of mixing with modern Mediterranean types and also, possibly, with remnants of the old Tasian and Natufian populations. From the few sample available from the XXI Dynasty, there may have been a new infusion from the south at this period.
Though see this as well, since it should be informative and much of it was already covered by Rasol via Ausar.
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger: Analysis of Hair Samples of Mummies from Semna South, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, (1978) 49: 277-262
As Brothwell and Spearman (‘63) point out, reddish-brown ancient hair is usually the result of partial oxidation of the melanin pigment. This color was seen in a large proportion of the Semna sample, and also noted by Titlbachova and Titlbach (‘77) on Egyptian material, where it also may have resulted from the mummification process. However, the large number of blond hairs that are not associated with the cuticular damage that bleaching produces, probably points to a significantly lighter-haired population than is now present in the Nubian region. Brothwell and Spearman (’63) noted genuinely blond ancient Egyptian samples using reflectance spectrophotometry. Blondism, especially in young children, is common in many darkhaired populations (e.g., Australian, Melanesian), and is still found in some Nubian villages (J. Zabkar, personal communication).
Only one sample (M197) showed cuticular damage and irregularities definitely consistent with bleaching, although bleaching could not be ruled out in some of the blond samples.
This study honestly surprised me. I always thought the Kushites had nappy hair. Maybe there was regional variation (with southern Kushites having nappier hair)?
EDIT: Actually, it sort of makes sense that northern "Nubians" would evolve less kinky hair than some other Africans. With all the sand out there it would be advantageous to have less tightly curled hair; wouldn't it be difficult to get sand out of really tightly curled hair?
Maybe that is why people evolved straight hair: so it would be easier to get desert sand out of the hair.
The problems I have with this study are a) it isn't specific as to which East African samples it uses (maybe people like the Beja would score similarly to northern "Nubians") and b) it seems to imply that less curly hair = less African admixture, as if Eurasian ancestry is needed to have less curly hair as opposed to that hair type involving in situ in northeast Africa.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Dr Watterson at the University of Chicage has pretty much put all of that to rest. Queen Tiye had bright red hair, as did Ramses and others. They subjected the hair to tests with new microscope technology to determine the true color. It is all in her bood about Akhenaten.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger: Analysis of Hair Samples of Mummies from Semna South, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, (1978) 49: 277-262
As Brothwell and Spearman (‘63) point out, reddish-brown ancient hair is usually the result of partial oxidation of the melanin pigment. This color was seen in a large proportion of the Semna sample, and also noted by Titlbachova and Titlbach (‘77) on Egyptian material, where it also may have resulted from the mummification process. However, the large number of blond hairs that are not associated with the cuticular damage that bleaching produces, probably points to a significantly lighter-haired population than is now present in the Nubian region. Brothwell and Spearman (’63) noted genuinely blond ancient Egyptian samples using reflectance spectrophotometry. Blondism, especially in young children, is common in many darkhaired populations (e.g., Australian, Melanesian), and is still found in some Nubian villages (J. Zabkar, personal communication).
Only one sample (M197) showed cuticular damage and irregularities definitely consistent with bleaching, although bleaching could not be ruled out in some of the blond samples.
This study honestly surprised me. I always thought the Kushites had nappy hair. Maybe there was regional variation (with southern Kushites having nappier hair)?
EDIT: Actually, it sort of makes sense that northern "Nubians" would evolve less kinky hair than some other Africans. With all the sand out there it would be advantageous to have less tightly curled hair; wouldn't it be difficult to get sand out of really tightly curled hair?
Maybe that is why people evolved straight hair: so it would be easier to get desert sand out of the hair.
The problems I have with this study are a) it isn't specific as to which East African samples it uses (maybe people like the Beja would score similarly to northern "Nubians") and b) it seems to imply that less curly hair = less African admixture, as if Eurasian ancestry is needed to have less curly hair as opposed to that hair type involving in situ in northeast Africa.
Many Africans in Sudan and Egypt have straighter hair. That is a fact. The numerous photos of people like the Beja make this clear. The problems with studies like this are that they are not conclusive. A handful of questionable results cannot be taken as conclusive or indicative of anything and are therefore misleading. Sudanese have been dyeing their hair red along with many other East Africans for a very long time. Again, this is something that anyone with any amount of knowledge on East Africa would know. Again, without putting such research into context, it can be distorted and misleading.
Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
the hair was straight, and sometimes red because the people were North African caucasians.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Dr Watterson at the University of Chicage has pretty much put all of that to rest. Queen Tiye had bright red hair, as did Ramses and others. They subjected the hair to tests with new microscope technology to determine the true color. It is all in her bood about Akhenaten.
Get lost! You introduced nothing new to the conversation and are merely, wasting space. There are MANY un-natural reasons for having red hair. You prove nothing.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: the hair was straight, and sometimes red because the people were North African caucasians.
There is no such thing as "Caucasian". There is only, black, Albino, and melaninated shades in between. All the same human.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
Pure distortion. Weather will do many things to hair AND skin. Case and point. You have a naturally mummified body such as 'Ginger' that changed colors. Then you have this body in he Darfur Desert that SEEMS to be going through a similar natural mummification process. (High Heat, zero moisture, dry air etc.) I had to crop the picture because it is large but you see BOTH the skin AND the hair are changing to a bright orange color. Now this is just during decomposition. WHO KNOWS how it will look if its actually covered in sand and preserved for another 4000 years! Its almost as if the skin on naturally mummifed bodies have been literally "Sandblasted" and turn the color of the sand.
Many pictures of mummified PETS also show a similar changed in color of the skin in hair. I was in East Africa for Months and not ONCE did I see a bright orange donkey. I HAVE seen mummified donkeys with an Orange coat though.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: the hair was straight, and sometimes red because the people were North African caucasians.
Geez, just when you thought it was safe to come back to EgyptSearch, there's new loonies crawling out of the trailer park. AmericanPathetic, you do know that the ancient Egyptians routinely KILLED people with red hair don't you? REad herodotus account, assuming you can. And just because rubes like you make this SO easy! Here's a pic of Queen Tiye.
I like this sculpture. It really showcases that "straight, red hair" and that "caucasian" (your term dumbass, not mine!) skin you were talking about. Notice how her long straight, hair cascades softly onto her pale, white shoulders.
I'm not suprised you were actually dumb enough to call the Egyptians "North African caucasians." Guess your buddies over at StormFront never told you the Caucasus mountains aren't located in Africa, and that the Egyptians were an ABORIGINAL African people, not emigres.
Do yourself a favor: try reading something that wasn't posted on StormFront. Use your head for more than a hatrack.
Posts: 248 | From: Way Down South | Registered: Sep 2007
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posted
sportsbilly is telling us much about his IQ with cheap, meaninglass personal attacks. It makes one think he was raised by trash in a garbage dump and taught no manners. The mummy of the elder lady, thought by many to be Queen Tiy does in fact have long wavy red hair consistent with being the north african caucasian that she was. Dr Watterson's research shows that the hair was indeed red. What you guys do is simply reject any information that does not meet your preconcieved case. It is exactly ewhy afrocentrics are not taken seriously. I have never visited stormfront but from what I know about it it is the same as this board except it is the other extreme.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
I take you as seriously as I take any other ignorant troll with more brass than brains.
I won't get into a "what skin color/hair texture did the ancient egyptians have" flamewar with you. This issue has been beaten to death, as has your "evidence." Read the archives and there you'll find it littered with the bones of fools far smarter than you who have tried to argue the case of white Egypt. You're not the first. This is why nobody is responding to your post but me. It's all been done before. If you don't want to read that's your problem.
Every few years or so some loudmouth refugee from StormFront stumbles in here spouting the same, three or four talking points you got from StormFront, almost ALL of them centered around hair. "Dr So-and-So" or "Professor What's-His-Name" did some research, performed a comparative analysis etc..." And when the "evidence" is shown, it's ALWAYS a theory full of qualifying language: "the evidence SUGGESTS; the data WOULD SEEM TO INDICATE; one POSSIBLE reason for this COULD be etc... It's always theoretical, never once is it conclusive.
So far these straws people like you clutch at have NEVER been numerous or comprehensive enough to form a whole body of evidence. However, these unrelated and unimportant fragments do serve one vital purpose: they help people like you keep doubt alive...in your own minds.
That's okay. There's still people out there who think the earth is really flat. Seems I'm talking to one now. But not anymore. You are the weakest link. Good bye.
Posts: 248 | From: Way Down South | Registered: Sep 2007
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posted
^^Sportbilly, this Americanpatriot character is none other than an old troll under a new name. I believe he went by hore before calls himelf a teacher.
quote: The mummy of the elder lady, thought by many to be Queen Tiy does in fact have long wavy red hair consistent with being the north african caucasian that she was. Dr Watterson's research shows that the hair was indeed red.
A hair analysis would not be as significant as an anthropological analysis (besides, hair color does not equate to non African ancestry) . Now let's take a look at an anthropological analysis. Please tell me below in this anthropological analysis where you see an imaginary "Caucasian"?
James Harris and Edward Wente conducted an x-ray analysis of the New Kingdom royal mummies with the results published in their book X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980). Included in the work were cephalograms of Pharaohs of the XVII-XX Dynasties and their queens.
"The Elder Lady"
First identified as Queen Tiye
The occipital bun is reminiscent of Mesolithic Nubians (see below). Sagittal plateau, rounded forehead with moderately projecting glabella; globular cranium with high vault. Protrusion of incisors, receding chin and steep mandible. Very vertical zygomatic arches and pronounced maxillary prognathism.
The Elder Lady possesses an occipital bun comparable to Mesolithic Nubians.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
Sportbilly, the fact is that you guys yell and scream, quote the same people over and over, and reject all evidence that does not support your points. This is exactly what is done on Stormfront on the other end of the spectrum. The ideas put forth here by many on Greece are so nutty that one would think they are coming from the computer lab mental institution. These ideas are not the least bit crazier than the Aryan nonsense you read on Stormfront.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
^^^^Please address my post, unless you're purposely eluding. Obviously you are, as usual.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
Sorry knowledge, first of all the "as usual comment" was out of line. I am not interested or influenced with these cheap insults. Your data was interesting, I have seen it before. Just as logic and historical evidence show strong connections between the egyptians and north african caucasians in syria and north africa it is also clear that they have connections to their neighbors in Nubia. No thinking person would say otherwise, just as no thinking person would say they were black africans.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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The occipital bun is reminiscent of Mesolithic Nubians (see below). Sagittal plateau, rounded forehead with moderately projecting glabella; globular cranium with high vault. Protrusion of incisors, receding chin and steep mandible. Very vertical zygomatic arches and pronounced maxillary prognathism.
What connections do Ancient Egyptians have with north African Caucasians, and Syrians?
Who are these North African Caucasians?
and
What makes them Caucasian?
Ill be looking forward to your response.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
Have you ever walked up to the mummy case and taken a look at Ramses II? He looks like shinebien the Jewish tailor. We just went through a Tut reconstruction that found his mummy to be North African caucasian.
If you have no idea who North African caucasians are one has to question your academic background, that is a really basic concept that no serious scholars are questioning. 90% of the population of African is black, negroid, and almost all of them are sub saharian. The populations of north africa are not negroid, nor have they been in the historical era. Dr Hawass made it clear in the recent Pyramid village excavations, "the population makeup of ancient Egypt is the same as our poulation today."
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
Also, do you consider Ethiopians Caucasians?
If so, how do you account for Ancient Africans over 100kya resembling Ethiopians and Southern Sudanese today?
Do you propose Ancient Caucasians infiltrating 100kya into East Africa to make them Caucasians?
quote: "From the size of the preserved bones, we estimated that Omo I was tall and slender, most likely around 5'10" tall and about 155 pounds," University of New Mexico anthropologist Osbjorn Pearson, who co-authored at least two of the new papers, told Discovery News.
Pearson said another, later fossil was also recently found. It too belonged to a "moderately tall -- around 5'9" -- and slender individual."
"Taken together, the remains show that these early modern humans were...***much like the people in southern Ethiopia and the southern Sudan today,***" Pearson said.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote: Have you ever walked up to the mummy case and taken a look at Ramses II? He looks like shinebien the Jewish tailor. We just went through a Tut reconstruction that found his mummy to be North African caucasian.
No one cares for eyeball anthropology, a real anthropological assessment would constitute your point, in which you have yet to propose. Thinking on doing so, soon?
Pray tell, what reconstruction was this, which portrayed Tut a "Caucasian"?
quote: If you have no idea who North African caucasians are one has to question your academic background, that is a really basic concept that no serious scholars are questioning.
I know who are erroneously labeled "Caucasian" i.e, Magrabians etc... I was simply asking for a straight forward response, which it seems you are unable to give.
Now, do you know why they are classified as "Caucasian"
quote: 90% of the population of African is black, negroid, and almost all of them are sub saharian.
What makes them Black? Pray tell.... Is it genetically of skeletally?
quote: The populations of north africa are not negroid, nor have they been in the historical era.
Please tell me what constitutes Negroid classification in your use of old school anthropology?
quote:Dr Hawass made it clear in the recent Pyramid village excavations, "the population makeup of ancient Egypt is the same as our poulation today."
This is what happens when you quote people without knowing what's going on, as the lineages which unite modern Egyptians and Ancient Egyptians are African lineages such as E3b etc...
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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"Materials and methods In 1997, the German Institute for Archaeology headed an excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. At this time, three types of tissues were sampled from different mummies: meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and placenta. Archaeological findings suggest that the mummies dated from the New Kingdom (approximately 1550_/1080 BC)..... The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin."
and then theres this:
Ancient Egyptian as an African Language, Egypt as an African Culture
Christopher Ehret Professor of History, African Studies Chair University of California at Los Angeles
Ancient Egyptian civilization was, in ways and to an extent usually not recognized, fundamentally African. The evidence of both language and culture reveals these African roots.
The origins of Egyptian ethnicity lay in the areas south of Egypt.
So Professor what do you have to say about these facts.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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The origins of the ancient Egyptian state and its formation have received much attention through analysis of mortuary contexts, skeletal material, and trade. Genetic diversity was analyzed by studying craniometric variation within a series of six time-successive Egyptian populations in order to investigate the evidence for migration over the period of the development of social hierarchy and the Egyptian state. Craniometric variation, based upon 16 measurements, was assessed through principal components analysis, discriminant function analysis, and Mahalanobis D2 matrix computation. Spatial and temporal relationships were assessed by Mantel and Partial Mantel tests.The results indicate overallpopulation continuity over the Predynastic and earlyDynastic, and high levels of genetic heterogeneity, therebysuggesting that state formation occurred as a mainlyindigenous process. Nevertheless, significant differences were found in morphology between both geographically-pooled and cemetery-specific temporal groups, indicating that some migration occurred along the Egyptian Nile Valley over the periods studied. Am J Phys Anthropol 132:501–509, 2007.
Variation in Ancient Egyptian Stature and Body Proportions Sonia R. Zakrzewski*
Stature is comprised of contributions from several body portions, i.e., from the lower limb and from the trunk and cranium. The analyses performed on each individual bone were undertaken to see whether the small stature change found could be assigned to differences in growth of either the lower limb or the trunk (employing upper limb measurements as an indirect proxy for trunk size). Both upper and lower limb measurements (individual long bone lengths) exhibited significant change through time, although neither upper limb length (humerus radius) nor lower limb length (femur tibia) themselves exhibited significant change through time. All long bone lengths that changed display the same trend of increasing in length up until the start of the Dynastic period, and then decrease to the MK. None of the body ratios separating upper and lower portions exhibit statistically significant change through time. This pattern supports suggestions that the relative constancy of stature (i.e., the relatively low level of change through time) cannot easily be compartmentalized. This result is in agreement with previous research that found no significant change in body proportions between the Predynastic period and the Middle Kingdom (Masali, 1972; Robins, 1983). The ancient Egyptians have been described as having a “super negroid” body plan (Robins, 1983). Variations in the proximal to distal segments of each limb were therefore examined. Of the ratios considered, only maximum humerus length to maximum ulna length (XLH/XLU) showed statistically significant change through time. This change was a relative decrease in the length of the humerus as compared with the ulna, suggesting the development of an increasingly African body plan with time. This may also be the result of Nubian mercenaries being included in the sample from Gebelein. EGYPTIAN STATURE AND BODY PROPORTIONS 227 The nature of the body plan was also investigated by comparing the intermembral, brachial, and crural indices for these samples with values obtained from the literature. No significant differences were found in either index through time for either sex. The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-negroid”body plan described by Robins (1983). The values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations (data from Aiello and Dean, 1990).
This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicatesthat the Egyptians generallyhave tropical bodyplans.Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clusteredtogether as compared to the other populations. Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
hum good questions. Some of this stuff is interesting but we just simply do not have the data we need to make concrete conclusions. We have people on this board who want to creeate an entire history based on a genetic marker in Europe thousands and thousands of years ago. We may have all of the answers in a few years but we do not have them now. Historians must be cautious before we leap out too far without complete information. Further, this black everything view you hear on this board is all politically driven. Even if every Egyptian and chinaman was solid black it would have nothing to do with any blacks living today. It was simply too long ago. Egypt was at a crossraods and this contained populations from many places but I think Dr Hawass is correct. If you want to see what Ancient egyptians looked like spend a few days in Cairo today.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
^^^^Simple and elusive. I take your post as a sign of defeat, since you really have no answers, just mere opinions. No significant data to back up anything you say.
Answer one simple question..
Can you name any near Eastern, European or pale North African Maghrebians, that you propose as "Caucasian", who are extremely tropically adapted as the Ancient Egyptians were?
Variation in Ancient Egyptian Stature and Body Proportions Sonia R. Zakrzewski*
The nature of the body plan was also investigated by comparing the intermembral, brachial, and crural indices for these samples with values obtained from the literature. No significant differences were found in either index through time for either sex. The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-negroid”body plan described by Robins (1983). The values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations (data from Aiello and Dean, 1990).
This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicatesthat the Egyptians generallyhave tropical bodyplans.Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clusteredtogether as compared to the other populations.
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Just in case you're wondering what tropical adaptation means.
Brachial and crural indices of European Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic humans
Trenton W. Holliday
Among recent humans brachial and crural indices are positively correlated with mean annual temperature, such that high indices are found in tropical groups. However, despite inhabiting glacial Europe, the Upper Paleolithic Europeans possessed high indices, prompting Trinkaus (1981) to argue for gene flow from warmer regions associated with modern human emergence in Europe.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
Almost everyone in north africa then and now were/are caucasians. Why are you so dedicated to this campaign to racialize the ancient egyptians? What is the point?
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
Knowledge is hopless. This person is just plain stupid.To understand how he works check out the race of the Egyptians thread. He is under the name celt...and touts te same retoric for about 10 pages..all the while never backing his rants up with evidence. He also has been under the name Horemheb and as "The Professor". Notice that he once again ddges any academic conversation with you and uses the North African strawman....
Its just best to laugh at the Professor...he is very ignorant. He thinks becuase he is a red head that people resembling him once ruled over the Nile in the blazing heat and desert....Like I saiod just laugh.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Meant to say IT IS Hopelesss...why can't we edit anymore?
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Never used the name Celt Jari. Just here defending basic history. It is always ashame when young minds are lost to ideology and racism.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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You failed to adress my Post, so I will repost. Here is some *FACTS* for you.
Lets look at the mummies:
A-M Mekota1, M Vermehren2
Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13
"Materials and methods In 1997, the German Institute for Archaeology headed an excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. At this time, three types of tissues were sampled from different mummies: meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and placenta. Archaeological findings suggest that the mummies dated from the New Kingdom (approximately 1550_/1080 BC)..... The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin."
and then theres this:
Ancient Egyptian as an African Language, Egypt as an African Culture
Christopher Ehret Professor of History, African Studies Chair University of California at Los Angeles
Ancient Egyptian civilization was, in ways and to an extent usually not recognized, fundamentally African. The evidence of both language and culture reveals these African roots.
The origins of Egyptian ethnicity lay in the areas south of Egypt.
So Professor what do you have to say about these facts.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Interesting post, other evidence says otherwise. Obviously Egypt is in Africa but Egyptians are much more closely related to the ancient Syrians. We agree wth AE's have been influenced by all of their neighbors and others as well. Dr Hawass, "Ancient Egyptians were North African caucasians." I'll ask again...what is the point? What does it matter if they were black Africans or not? You also know that the vast majority of Egyptologists are not interested in that question, they seldom mention it at all. Whether of not they were or were not black africans has nothing to do with today.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
Patriot, after you're done posting insignificant drivel, feel free to answer the following post you willfully ignored.
Answer one simple question..
Can you name any near Eastern, European or pale North African Maghrebians, that you propose as "Caucasian", who are extremely tropically adapted as the Ancient Egyptians were?
If not, then I humbly ask you not to post anymore.
Variation in Ancient Egyptian Stature and Body Proportions Sonia R. Zakrzewski*
The nature of the body plan was also investigated by comparing the intermembral, brachial, and crural indices for these samples with values obtained from the literature. No significant differences were found in either index through time for either sex. The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-negroid”body plan described by Robins (1983). The values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations (data from Aiello and Dean, 1990).
This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicatesthat the Egyptians generallyhave tropical bodyplans.Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clusteredtogether as compared to the other populations.
-----
Just in case you're wondering what tropical adaptation means.
Brachial and crural indices of European Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic humans
Trenton W. Holliday
Among recent humans brachial and crural indices are positively correlated with mean annual temperature, such that high indices are found in tropical groups. However, despite inhabiting glacial Europe, the Upper Paleolithic Europeans possessed high indices, prompting Trinkaus (1981) to argue for gene flow from warmer regions associated with modern human emergence in Europe.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: the hair was straight, and sometimes red because the people were North African caucasians.
quote:Originally posted by sportbilly: Geez, just when you thought it was safe to come back to EgyptSearch, there's new loonies crawling out of the trailer park. AmericanPathetic, you do know that the ancient Egyptians routinely KILLED people with red hair don't you? REad herodotus account, assuming you can.
It's like I said, his extremely weak-sauce posts read as if they were some exotic race-myth / fantasy or story -- hopefully this is just intentionally dimwitted trolling and he doesn't really hope believe that anyone takes his posts seriously.
Especially when the vets have posted in a scholarly manner and he follows up with a few grunts like a class-clown disagreeing with the teacher just to disagree.
Grunter always reponds to discussion forum messages with a single word or a short phrase, and he [b]NEVER[b/] edits quoted material. Profundus Maximus, Philosopher, Tireless Rebutter, and other verbose Warriors find Grunter a particularly exasperating opponent because he will answer their lengthy pontifications with a simple "Yeah!". "Whatever", "Wrong.", etc. While Grunter is not a strong Warrior, he is very elusive and difficult to engage in direct battle, and only by his extended silence is there any indication that he has been vanquished.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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Please post this "Other" evidence Linking Ancient Egyptians to Syrians. Unlike you I have many evidence I would like you to look at, here is some more:
X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980).
Courtesy of James Harris and Edward Wente:
In terms of head shape, the XVIV and XX dynasties look more like the early Nubian skulls from the mesolithic with low vaults and sloping, curved foreheads.The XVII and XVIII dynasty skulls are shaped more like modern Nubians with globular skulls and high vaults.
Now we Have Links to Nubians.
Also read this:
The period when sub-Saharan Africa was most influential in Egypt was a time when neither Egypt, as we understand it culturally, nor the Sahara, as we understand it geographically, existed. Populations and cultures now found south of the desert roamed far to the north. The culture of Upper Egypt, which became dynastic Egyptian civilization, could fairly be called a Sudanese transplant. Encyclopedia of Precolonial Africa, by Joseph O. Vogel, AltaMira Press, Walnut Creek, California (1997), pp. 465-472
and finally this:
Sir Alan Gardiner: These were long-headed-dolicocephalic is the learned term-and below even medium stature, but Negroid features are often to be observed. Whatever may be said of the northerners, it is safe to describe the dwellers in Upper Egypt as of essentially African stock , a character always retained despite alien influences brought to bear on them from time to time." (pg. 392; Egypt of the Pharaohs 1966)
Patriot can you refute *any* of this information.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
It is not a matter of refuting the information King. You are going back a long way and making a vague point. You may well be correct about that and still not be able to tie it to historical Egypt. Egypt also bordered on Syria at the time. It is niave to think that that border was closed to migration for centuries. You would have me believe that there were caucasians in Libyia on one side, caucasians in Syria on the other and yet Egypt was free of them. Let me ask again. What's the point? Why does it matter?
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Never used the name Celt Jari. Just here defending basic history. It is always ashame when young minds are lost to ideology and racism.
That is'nt you..????????? Same retoric...same dogging of acedemic sources...Same M.O.....Sorry, but you have been exposed AGAIN professor......
Oh- And if you are not the same guy owcome you did'nt say anything when Djhuti and I called you Professor...HUH Horemheb?
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
I am not going to reply to that kind of nonsense. You can call me Elvis if you wish, I could care less.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
^^^^^American patriot what's taking so long.....????
Can you name any near Eastern, European or pale North African Maghrebians, that you propose as "Caucasian", who are extremely tropically adapted as the Ancient Egyptians were?
If not, then I humbly ask you not to post anymore.
Variation in Ancient Egyptian Stature and Body Proportions Sonia R. Zakrzewski*
The nature of the body plan was also investigated by ****comparing the intermembral, brachial, and crural indices**** for these samples with values obtained from the literature. No significant differences were found in either index through time for either sex. The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-negroid”body plan described by Robins (1983). The values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations (data from Aiello and Dean, 1990).
This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicatesthat the Egyptians generallyhave tropical bodyplans.Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clusteredtogether as compared to the other populations. Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
My advice to you knowledge is to go to school and take any basic geography class. You can find many of them on line. ALL of them will teach you that north africans are caucasians and that the black african population is south of the desert.
You also did not answer my question. What does it matter?
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
I see you can't answer a simple question, let alone hold an intellectual debate.
It matters because the truth is not known, obviously when he have posters such as yourself.
Can you name any near Eastern, European or pale North African Maghrebians, that you propose as "Caucasian", who are extremely tropically adapted as the Ancient Egyptians were?
^^^^^American patriot what's taking so long.....????Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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SO far, I gave you two studies about mummies that said the same thing and you ignored it. Will repost please tell me what you think:
X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980).
Courtesy of James Harris and Edward Wente:
In terms of head shape, the XVIV and XX dynasties look more like the early Nubian skulls from the mesolithic with low vaults and sloping, curved foreheads.The XVII and XVIII dynasty skulls are shaped more like modern Nubians with globular skulls and high vaults.
A-M Mekota1, M Vermehren2
Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13
"Materials and methods In 1997, the German Institute for Archaeology headed an excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. At this time, three types of tissues were sampled from different mummies: meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and placenta. Archaeological findings suggest that the mummies dated from the New Kingdom (approximately 1550_/1080 BC)..... The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin."
Now whats your comments about these studies, these studies are not done before historic Egypt so there should be no problem,
also I want your evidence about Ancient Egyptians being related to Ancient Syrians.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: I see you can't answer a simple question, let alone hold an intellectual debate.
It matters because the truth is not known, obviously when he have posters such as yourself.
Like I said Hopeless....Typical American
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
KIng: Dr hawass; "Ancient Egyptians are the same people as those who live here today. North African caucasians." he has the best experts in the world digging up these massive grave yards. Syrians? Check out Ramses II and compare him to any Jew you have ever seen.
again: what is the point?
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Never used the name Celt Jari. Just here defending basic history. It is always ashame when young minds are lost to ideology and racism.
That is'nt you..????????? Same retoric...same dogging of acedemic sources...Same M.O.....Sorry, but you have been exposed AGAIN professor......
Oh- And if you are not the same guy owcome you did'nt say anything when Djhuti and I called you Professor...HUH Horemheb?
You're right. He does use the Hore, American Hammer, American Patriot, and Celt niches, as well as a couple of others I've suspected over the years.
Ask Hammer if Slavery was of the greatest benefit to Africans, and if he believes slavery and the white man brought civilization to Africa.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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I gave you two studies that linked Ancient Egyptians to other africans.
You give me the words of a biased Hawass, then you tell me to compare Ramses to Jews.
Is this your idea of scholarship?
I want studies that link Ancient Egypt to Ancient Syrians.
I also notice you have no comments towards the studies I posted, will repost until you comment on them:
X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980).
Courtesy of James Harris and Edward Wente:
In terms of head shape, the XVIV and XX dynasties look more like the early Nubian skulls from the mesolithic with low vaults and sloping, curved foreheads.The XVII and XVIII dynasty skulls are shaped more like modern Nubians with globular skulls and high vaults.
A-M Mekota1, M Vermehren2
Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13
"Materials and methods In 1997, the German Institute for Archaeology headed an excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. At this time, three types of tissues were sampled from different mummies: meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and placenta. Archaeological findings suggest that the mummies dated from the New Kingdom (approximately 1550_/1080 BC)..... The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin."
Now whats your comments on these studies.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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