posted
Quote - Grunman - The linked article also says in 100 years the redheads will be extinct. Two percent of the present population, which is roughly 6 billion people, is 120,000,000 redheads. One hundred divided by 120,000,000 is 1,200,000 deaths a year for the next 100 years
- Unquote
As i said I have no opinion. The point the article was making is that Redhead beget Redheads- Biblically speaking.
Translation - NO NEW REDHEADED OFFSPRINGs IN THE NEXT 67yrs - because of . . . .. . INTERMARIAGE.
Tha's my interpretation. Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Quote - Grunman - The linked article also says in 100 years the redheads will be extinct. Two percent of the present population, which is roughly 6 billion people, is 120,000,000 redheads. One hundred divided by 120,000,000 is 1,200,000 deaths a year for the next 100 years
- Unquote
As i said I have no opinion. The point the article was making is that Redhead beget Redheads- Biblically speaking.
Translation - NO NEW REDHEADED OFFSPRINGs IN THE NEXT 67yrs - because of . . . .. . INTERMARIAGE.
Tha's my interpretation. SO NO INTERMARRIAGE. NOT EVEN TO BLONDES FUHLS!!!!!
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
xyyman said, ''Translation - NO NEW REDHEADED OFFSPRINGs IN THE NEXT 67yrs - because of . . . .. . INTERMARIAGE.
''That's my interpretation.''
And this translation was foremost in my mind when I read the article initially but then he threw in the cancer thing and muddled up the bitness.
''That's my interpretation. SO NO INTERMARRIAGE. NOT EVEN TO BLONDES FUHLS!!!!!''
So no marriage to an Afro chick who has dyed her hair blonde?
Wait! Can we go the brunette rout?
Just thought of something. If all of humanity originated in Africa, then this also means the gene pool was dispursed from there — according to those who say they know. (''Lord ham mercy'' some will say at this point, while digging themselves a deeper hole to crawl in.) Actually I said this two or three pages ago but some folks were too embarrassed by the clarity of it all.
Glad I'm not educated. It looks like it has blinded far too many people.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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So no marriage to an Afro chick who has dyed her hair blonde?
Wait! Can we go the brunette rout? [/QB]
LOL on the Afro chick. No. The brunette would not help either. Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Celt: Djehuti....I wish not to debate this any further on this forum. But just one curious question: What makes you think they had to be Nordic? A good friend of mine has a wife that is a natural redhead and she is from Italy. She doesn't have any features that would readily assume that she is Nordic. In fact she looks to fit in very well with other Italians.
So I take it then 'Celt', that you are unware that Italy had multiple invasions of Celtic as well as Germanic peoples. LOL You aren't going to tell me that red hair is a common trait among Italians are you?
Besides, what do Italians have to do with ancient Egypt, at least before the Roman occupation?
quote:This is where the article loses all credibility with me Grumman. LOL....Experts suggesting that redheads could be extinct within 53 years.LOLOLOL....Where do they grow these bananas? Who believes this kind of stuff? If redheads will be extinct in 53 years, then so will the human race.
So what are you saying?... That the very existence of the human race depends on redheads??! LMFO
quote:xyyman...I just can't keep hush on this. There have been plenty of fair-skinned individuals spending years in the desert sun doing digs all over North Africa and the ME. They're still doing it today.
I don't they literally spent years in the desert sun, just days at a time working. Still, too much exposure from the tropical sun is not good for fair-skin, especially red-heads. They didn't have sun-block back in ancient times, and I still ask for evidence as to if fair-skinned red-head Europeans were part of the ancient Egyptian population, let alone how they got to the African Nile Valley in the first place!
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Well I'm not saying there was fair-skinned Egyptians. Only replying to the nonsense that fair-skinned people cannot survive in places like Egypt when they have been doing so for hundreds if not thousands of years.
Until they release the DNA results on the mummies, we'll just have to speculate now won't we? Posts: 197 | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Celt: [qb] Djehuti....I wish not to debate this any further on this forum. But just one curious question: What makes you think they had to be Nordic? A good friend of mine has a wife that is a natural redhead and she is from Italy. She doesn't have any features that would readily assume that she is Nordic. In fact she looks to fit in very well with other Italians.
So I take it then 'Celt', that you are unware that Italy had multiple invasions of Celtic as well as Germanic peoples. LOL You aren't going to tell me that red hair is a common trait among Italians are you?
Besides, what do Italians have to do with ancient Egypt, at least before the Roman occupation?
quote:This is where the article loses all credibility with me Grumman. LOL....Experts suggesting that redheads could be extinct within 53 years.LOLOLOL....Where do they grow these bananas? Who believes this kind of stuff? If redheads will be extinct in 53 years, then so will the human race.
So what are you saying?... That the very existence of the human race depends on redheads??! LMFO
You seem to have missed both my points. Posts: 197 | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Oh brother!!!! Here we go again. PLEASE LOCK THIS THREAD AND STICKY IT. When new material on the subject comes up then it can be re-opened.
Doug and others have said it a million different ways – White skin appeared about 6Kya THAT MEANS 4kbc. AE started around 4kbc and earlier. DO THE MATH. ZERO FAIR SKIN(REDHEADS) IN 4kbc. Simply math . . .. so for about 150, 000 – 4000yrs BC there are zero fair skin people. And my guess is when they appeared they stayed in northern Europe for awhile, 1000s of yrs, since the Greek(Macedonians) implied that they were Barbaric. Remember Africanoid peoples occupied most of Europe some say up to 10,000yrs BC.
So DNA, RNA, SDNA . . . . whatever. . .. . without objective observation it is suspect to me. I have only once in my life seen what looks like a pure “downtown” African with real blue eyes. I have never seen African with red-hair like you described. Not saying they don’t exist. It is not NATURAL ie very very very very uncommon to have red hair black skin persons.
AE were Dravidians type or Yemini or Semitic or Arabs is a better argument. If I were the Eurocentrics that is the tact I would take. Build my case(ownership) on that forget about nordic nonsense. Get, make or FABRICATE evidence around that hypothesis because the Nordic AE house of cards is falling.
Or prove that the Beja., Ethiopians etc are really European.. . .something I heard when I was a kid.
quote:Originally posted by Celt: Well I'm not saying there was fair-skinned Egyptians. Only replying to the nonsense that fair-skinned people cannot survive in places like Egypt when they have been doing so for hundreds if not thousands of years.
Until they release the DNA results on the mummies, we'll just have to speculate now won't we?
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Celt: Well I'm not saying there was fair-skinned Egyptians. Only replying to the nonsense that fair-skinned people cannot survive in places like Egypt when they have been doing so for hundreds if not thousands of years.
Please list examples of fairskinned populations that have been living in tropical deserts for centuries or "thousands of years" as you have put it.
quote:Until they release the DNA results on the mummies, we'll just have to speculate now won't we?
Not really. We have DNA results of modern Egyptians which show that they are predominantly of African descent with non-African lineages that were recieved during recent historical times but as early as later dynastic times. DNA results of mummies will only confirm this.
quote:You seem to have missed both my points.
Then explain to me your 'points', for it seems to me you have non.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Celt: Well I'm not saying there was fair-skinned Egyptians. Only replying to the nonsense that fair-skinned people cannot survive in places like Egypt when they have been doing so for hundreds if not thousands of years.
Please list examples of fairskinned populations that have been living in tropical deserts for centuries or "thousands of years" as you have put it.
DJEHUTI....Haven't we gone over this already? Are you denying that fair-skinned people of European descent have been living in the Middle East and Africa for centuries?
quote:Until they release the DNA results on the mummies, we'll just have to speculate now won't we?
Not really. We have DNA results of modern Egyptians which show that they are predominantly of African descent with non-African lineages that were recieved during recent historical times but as early as later dynastic times. DNA results of mummies will only confirm this.
Will they? It seems that we don't need the DNA results afterall then do we? Your word is all that is needed.
quote:You seem to have missed both my points.
Then explain to me your 'points',for it seems to me you have non .
I can see that. Posts: 197 | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Celt said, ''Well I'm not saying there was fair-skinned Egyptians. Only replying to the nonsense that fair-skinned people cannot survive in places like Egypt when they have been doing so for hundreds if not thousands of years.''
then Djehute replied with:
''Please list examples of fairskinned populations that have been living in tropical deserts for centuries or "thousands of years" as you have put it.''
I see no intent to involve 'populations' in this. Context says some fair-skinned people have done it. So if your main intent is to prove no populations, then yes, that's understandable and according to the evidence thus far there were none. Conversely no evidence can be produced that says there weren't any tiny groups that haven't done it in those environs that you say couldn't have done it. No need to lay all your cards on the table at once. You may need them later.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
^ The premise of Celt's claims is that there were fair-skinned, light colored haired (for all purposes white) peoples present in northeast Africa (Egypt) from predynastic times all throughout dynastic times that comprised the Egyptian population.
So far he has given no evidence of such.
Unless you can provide such evidence. Exactly what point are you making??
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Celt stop your nonsense, you know very well that the old egyptians would be shocked and intruiged if they saw a blonde person crossing by. But ofcourse not with medditeranian and levant population since contact have always been there.
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ The premise of Celt's claims is that there were fair-skinned, light colored haired (for all purposes white) peoples present in northeast Africa (Egypt) from predynastic times all throughout dynastic times that comprised the Egyptian population.
This is false. I have never said that the Egyptian population was comprised of fair-skinned light-colored haired white people. I referred to one report that said Ramses II had been a natural red head only. In fact I have conceded to a mostly black African AE. My only other inferences have been that some other peoples may have occupied AE other than black African negroid types. You make it sound as if I'm saying AE was all-white European types only. Even from a racist point of view that has to seem ridiculous considering the evidence that suggests otherwise.
Posts: 197 | Registered: Jul 2007
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Djehuti, Horemheb/Celt has made progrss in 3 years. He used to believe in White AE, then redish-brown caucasians from the middle east, and now a mostly black people of AE.
Give him credit.
It may take another 3 years for him to accept the truth of a native Black African population starting the AE civilization. You have to understand his pain in admitting that much truth so far. Be patient.
Posts: 342 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Mansa Musa: Excellent descrontruction, Tyranno.
White Nord's info was copied and pasted from the Racial Reality webpage, the website of Egyptsearch's most notorious Eurocentric troll, aptly named Evil Euro.
He came here and debated for several years spouting some of the most debased, racist filth you'll find mixed in with Pseudoscientific arguments.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: From: Topic: Debunking Afrocentric Trash
Wasn't aware. Good link on EE, Mansa Musa
quote:Originally posted by Mansa Musa: Excellent descrontruction, Tyranno.
White Nord's info was copied and pasted from the Racial Reality webpage, the website of Egyptsearch's most notorious Eurocentric troll, aptly named Evil Euro.
He came here and debated for several years spouting some of the most debased, racist filth you'll find mixed in with Pseudoscientific arguments.
??? I just logged in earlier and my thread got deleted with not one solid reply to the evidence presented. Once again
Anthropology
EGYPTIANS
"One such concentration of [Paleolithic] food-gatherers is seen in the Sebilian culture of Upper Egypt. The skeletal remains from this culture, which have not yet been published, are said to anticipate in physical type the predynastic, placing a fine Mediterranean type in pre-Neolithic times.
"The importance of these [early Neolithic] people is that they probably represent the prototype of the Neolithic agriculturalists who moved westward along the shore of North Africa to Morocco, and over into Spain, whence they spread the Neolithic economy, with emmer flax, and swine, to the Swiss lakes and to the Rhine. ... The skulls of these people, which consist mostly of females and infants, are all dolichocephalic and Mediterranean. There is no trace of negroid influence and the skulls are said to be larger than those of predynastic Egyptians....
"The [pre-Dynastic] Badarian type represents a small branch of the Mediterranean racial group. ... The Badarian skulls are more prognathous than those of their successors, and have higher nasal indices. ... In fact, while the prognathism and nose form would suggest a negroid tendency, this cannot be established, since the hair form is definitely not negroid. ... Morant shows that the Badarian cranial type is closely similar to that of some of the modern Christians of northern Ethiopia—who incidentally do not show negroid characteristics in the skull—and also to the crania of Dravidian-speaking peoples of southern India. ... On the basis of these racial comparisons, it seems reasonable to suggest that this Badarian physical type may have come from the south, near the headwaters of the Blue Nile. It may represent an early Hamitic racial strain, which persists despite some negroid admixture in Ethiopia and Somaliland to the present day.
"In Lower Egypt lived another group of Mediterranean predynastic people who differed from the Upper Egyptians in certain noticeable ways. The heads were broader, the cranial indices higher, reaching a mean of 75, whereas the Upper Egyptian mean is nearly 72. The vault height is less, the face is no broader, but somewhat longer, and the nasal index is lower.
"The two types from Upper and Lower Egypt represent the extremes of a purely native Egyptian population, but from the beginning of dynastic times, around 3000 B.C. until Ptolemaic times, the numerous series which give an excellent picture of the progress of racial continuity and change in Egypt show the interactions of these two types. The racial history of Egypt in the course of three thousand years was simply the gradual replacement of the Upper Egyptian type by that of Lower Egypt. ... Ancient Egypt must remain the most outstanding example yet known in the world of an important, naturally isolated region in which native racial types were permitted to develop their own way for several thousand years completely uninfluenced by foreign contacts.
"The wealth of contemporary illustrative material from Egyptian art sources may be divided into two classes, conventional representations and portraits. The former show a definite and well-recognized type; slender-bodied and wiry, with narrow hips and small hands and feet. The head and face are those of a smoothly contoured fine Mediterranean form.
"The pigmentation of the Egyptians was usually a brunet white; in the conventional figures the men are represented as red, the women often as lighter, and even white. ... the hair is almost inevitably black or dark brown, and the eyes brown.... The Egyptian representation of foreigners is quite accurate; besides the Libyans, who have Nordic features as well as coloring, Asiatics, with prominent noses and curly hair, sea peoples from the Mediterranean, with lighter skins and a more pronounced facial relief than the Egyptians, are also shown, as well as negroes. ... The Mediterranean pigmentation of the Egyptians has probably not greatly changed during the last five thousand years."
(Coon, 1939)
Gentic evidence that modern and aswell ancient Egyptians are Caucasiods
Genetics
"To assess the extent to which the Nile River Valley has been a corridor for human migrations between Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa, we analyzed mtDNA variation in 224 individuals from various locations along the river. Sequences of the first hypervariable segment (HV1) of the mtDNA control region and a polymorphic HpaI site at position 3592 allowed us to designate each mtDNA as being of 'northern' or 'southern' affiliation. Proportions of northern and southern mtDNA differed significantly between Egypt, Nubia, and the southern Sudan.
"...we can infer that the migration of northern mtDNA types to the south is older than the migration of southern mtDNA types to the north (or that there has been less gene flow from north to south than from south to north along the Nile River Valley) and that Egypt and Nubia have had more genetic contact than either has had with the southern Sudan. Moreover, we can tentatively infer that these migrations occurred recently enough to fall within the period of the documented historical record of human populations in the Nile River Valley."
(Krings et al. 1999) * * *
"...the present study on the Y-chromosome haplotype shows that there are northern and southern Y-haplotypes in Egypt. The main Y-haplotype V is a northern haplotype, with a significantly different frequency in the north compared to the south of the country: frequencies of haplotype V are 51.9% in the Delta (location A), 24.2% in Upper Egypt (location B), and 17.4% in Lower Nubia (location C). On the other hand, haplotype IV is a typical southern haplotype, being almost absent in A (1.2%), and preponderant in B (27.3%) and C (39.1%). Haplotype XI also shows a preponderance in the south (in C, 30.4%; B, 28.8%) compared to the north (11.7% in A) of the country. "It is interesting to relate this peculiar north/south differentiation, a pattern of genetic variation deriving from the two uniparentally inherited genetic systems (mtDNA and Y chromosome), to specific historic events. Since the beginning of Egyptian history (3200-3100 B.C.), the legendary king Menes united Upper and Lower Egypt. Migration from north to south may coincide with the Pharaonic colonization of Nubia, which occurred initially during the Middle Kingdom (12th Dynasty, 1991-1785 B.C.), and more permanently during the New Kingdom, from the reign of Thotmosis III (1490-1437 B.C.). The main migration from south to north may coincide with the 25th Dynasty (730-655 B.C.), when kings from Napata (in Nubia) conquered Egypt."
(Lucotte et al. 2003)
* * *
"The Hpal (np3,592) mitochondrial DNA marker is a selectively neutral mutation that is very common in sub-Saharan Africa.... From 29 [Merotic Nubian] individuals analysed, only 15 yield positive amplifications, four of them (26.7%) displaying the sub-Saharan African marker. Hpa 1 (np3,592) marker is present in the sub-Saharan populations at a frequency of 68.7 on average. Thus, the frequency of genes from this area in the Merotic Nubian population can be estimated at around 39% (with a confidence interval from 22% to 55%). The frequency obtained fits in a south-north decreasing gradient of Hpa I (np3,592) along the African continent. Results suggest that morphological changes observed historically in the Nubian populations are more likely to be due to the existence of south-north gene flow through the Nile Valley than to in-situ evolution."
(Fox, 1997)
this summs it up, that the ancient Egyptians were of the Caucasiod race, and not of the Negroid race, and like Numida-Kabyle said you can't find the origin of people in art since its art, and it has a symbolic meaning. I also want to say that Egyptians are closely related to Berbers not to Black Africans, and the Arab influnece on the whole of North Africa is small. The Egpytians were Caucasiods with Semitic-Berberid and Nordic elements in their population. Further prove their are Egyptian posters who have disagreed and provided evidence that the ancient Egyptians are not Negroid but rather Caucasiod. Greek Writiers has described the Egyptians to be similar phenotype to the people of Northern India, we know that people of Northern India are infact sub-brance of the Caucasiod race. Also we must take to account the racial similarities and aswell lanagauge between the Egyptians and the Berbers. Ofcouse Egyptians are not Berber, but they seem to have a common ancestor.
quote:Originally posted by White Nord: ??? I just logged in earlier and my thread got deleted with not one solid reply to the evidence presented. Once again
Anthropology
EGYPTIANS
"One such concentration of [Paleolithic] food-gatherers is seen in the Sebilian culture of Upper Egypt. The skeletal remains from this culture, which have not yet been published, are said to anticipate in physical type the predynastic, placing a fine Mediterranean type in pre-Neolithic times.
"The importance of these [early Neolithic] people is that they probably represent the prototype of the Neolithic agriculturalists who moved westward along the shore of North Africa to Morocco, and over into Spain, whence they spread the Neolithic economy, with emmer flax, and swine, to the Swiss lakes and to the Rhine. ... The skulls of these people, which consist mostly of females and infants, are all dolichocephalic and Mediterranean. There is no trace of negroid influence and the skulls are said to be larger than those of predynastic Egyptians....
"The [pre-Dynastic] Badarian type represents a small branch of the Mediterranean racial group. ... The Badarian skulls are more prognathous than those of their successors, and have higher nasal indices. ... In fact, while the prognathism and nose form would suggest a negroid tendency, this cannot be established, since the hair form is definitely not negroid. ... Morant shows that the Badarian cranial type is closely similar to that of some of the modern Christians of northern Ethiopia—who incidentally do not show negroid characteristics in the skull—and also to the crania of Dravidian-speaking peoples of southern India. ... On the basis of these racial comparisons, it seems reasonable to suggest that this Badarian physical type may have come from the south, near the headwaters of the Blue Nile. It may represent an early Hamitic racial strain, which persists despite some negroid admixture in Ethiopia and Somaliland to the present day.
"In Lower Egypt lived another group of Mediterranean predynastic people who differed from the Upper Egyptians in certain noticeable ways. The heads were broader, the cranial indices higher, reaching a mean of 75, whereas the Upper Egyptian mean is nearly 72. The vault height is less, the face is no broader, but somewhat longer, and the nasal index is lower.
"The two types from Upper and Lower Egypt represent the extremes of a purely native Egyptian population, but from the beginning of dynastic times, around 3000 B.C. until Ptolemaic times, the numerous series which give an excellent picture of the progress of racial continuity and change in Egypt show the interactions of these two types. The racial history of Egypt in the course of three thousand years was simply the gradual replacement of the Upper Egyptian type by that of Lower Egypt. ... Ancient Egypt must remain the most outstanding example yet known in the world of an important, naturally isolated region in which native racial types were permitted to develop their own way for several thousand years completely uninfluenced by foreign contacts.
"The wealth of contemporary illustrative material from Egyptian art sources may be divided into two classes, conventional representations and portraits. The former show a definite and well-recognized type; slender-bodied and wiry, with narrow hips and small hands and feet. The head and face are those of a smoothly contoured fine Mediterranean form.
"The pigmentation of the Egyptians was usually a brunet white; in the conventional figures the men are represented as red, the women often as lighter, and even white. ... the hair is almost inevitably black or dark brown, and the eyes brown.... The Egyptian representation of foreigners is quite accurate; besides the Libyans, who have Nordic features as well as coloring, Asiatics, with prominent noses and curly hair, sea peoples from the Mediterranean, with lighter skins and a more pronounced facial relief than the Egyptians, are also shown, as well as negroes. ... The Mediterranean pigmentation of the Egyptians has probably not greatly changed during the last five thousand years."
(Coon, 1939)
Actually, Tyranno already hit you with a sound rebuttal and you chose not to address his points. Why you would be trying to push this outdated pseudoscience from such a notoriously rejected fringe theorist as Carlton Coon is beyond me.
Here is what Keita had to say in 2005 about his so-called Badarians of the "fine Mediterranean type", in a much more critical and recent analysis.
An examination of the distance hierarchies reveals the Badarian series to be more similar to the Teita in both analysis and always more similar to all of the African series than to the Norse and Berg groups (see Tables 3A & 3B and Figure 2). Essentially equal similarity is found with the Zalavar and Dogon series in the 11-variable analysis and with these and the Bushman in the one using 15 variables. The Badarian series clusters with the tropical African groups no matter which algorithm is employed (see Figures 3 and 4). The clustering with the Bushman can be understood as an artifact of grouping algorithms; it is well known that a series may group into a cluster that does not contain the series to which it is most similar (has the lowest distance value). An additional 20 dendrograms were generated using the minimum evolution algorithm provided by MEGA (not shown). In none of them did the Badarian sample affiliate with the European series. In additional analysis, the Bushman series was left out; the results were the same - Source
Ironically, Coon does acknowledge their relationship to prehistoric/modern east Africans, which is an accurate observation albeit the flaw of typological thinking, that "race" is a biological concept, composed of people restricted to strict biological units and distinct lineages.
Coon writes:
it seems reasonable to suggest that this Badarian physical type may have come from the south, near the headwaters of the Blue Nile. It may represent an early Hamitic racial strain, which persists despite some negroid admixture in Ethiopia and Somaliland to the present day. - Coon
Another thing Coon missed by way of this tropical relationship, is the limb ratios and body proportions. Egyptian skeletal measurements clustered along side that of tropical Africans, and not Europeans or eople adapted to more northernly climates.
The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-Negroid” body plan described by Robins (1983). The values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations (data from Aiello and Dean, 1990). This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. - Zakrzewski (2003)
So much for the Medit nonsense..
Two more things we have learned however, since 1939..
#1 Indigenous Africans, unrelated to non-Africans have a wide array of features that overlap most of the world's variation.
# 2 This variation (including East and Northeast Africa) is not the result of "racial" admixture, but is completely indigenous.
Concerning the ancient East African populations:
The skeletons are of very tall people. They had long, narrow heads, and relatively long, narrow faces. The nose was of medium width; and prognathism, when present, was restricted to the alveolar, or tooth-bearing, region......all their features can be found in several living populations of East Africa, like the Tutsi of Rwanda and Burundi, who are very dark skinned and differ greatly from Europeans in a There is every reason to believe that they are ancestral to the living 'Elongated East Africans'. Neither of these populations, fossil and modern, should be considered to be closely related to Caucasoids of Europe and western Asia. - Hiernaux, 1975
quote:Gentic evidence that modern and aswell ancient Egyptians are Caucasiods
First you'd need to present evidence of the existence of these said Caucasoids to make such a declaration. Secondly, where would this evidence happen to be?
quote:Genetics
"To assess the extent to which the Nile River Valley has been a corridor for human migrations between Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa, we analyzed mtDNA variation in 224 individuals from various locations along the river. Sequences of the first hypervariable segment (HV1) of the mtDNA control region and a polymorphic HpaI site at position 3592 allowed us to designate each mtDNA as being of 'northern' or 'southern' affiliation. Proportions of northern and southern mtDNA differed significantly between Egypt, Nubia, and the southern Sudan.
"...we can infer that the migration of northern mtDNA types to the south is older than the migration of southern mtDNA types to the north (or that there has been less gene flow from north to south than from south to north along the Nile River Valley) and that Egypt and Nubia have had more genetic contact than either has had with the southern Sudan. Moreover, we can tentatively infer that these migrations occurred recently enough to fall within the period of the documented historical record of human populations in the Nile River Valley."
(Krings et al. 1999)
* * *
????? This is supposedly strong evidence of a "Caucasoid" presence in ancient Egypt? From what I've read, they stress gene-flow from south to north and note a close relationship between northern Sudanese and and AE. Not one mention of the word "Caucasoid" either, nor any mention of any "Caucasoid genes", or ancient Egyptians who cluster along side these said "Caucasoids" of yours.
2004 mtDNA study on ancient Egyptian sedentary population:
[I]The mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) diversity of 58 individuals from Upper Egypt, more than half (34 individuals) from Gurna, whose population has an ancient cultural history, were studied by sequencing the control-region and screening diagnostic RFLP markers. This sedentary population presented similarities to the Ethiopian population by the L1 and L2 macrohaplogroup frequency (20.6%), by the West Eurasian component (defined by haplogroups H to K and T to X) and particularly by a high frequency (17.6%) of haplogroup M1. We statistically and phylogenetically analysed and compared the Gurna population with other Egyptian, Near East and sub-Saharan Africa populations; AMOVA and Minimum Spanning Network analysis showed that the Gurna population was not isolated from neighbouring populations. Our results suggest that the Gurna population has conserved the trace of an ancestral genetic structure from an ancestral East African population, characterized by a high M1 haplogroup frequency. The current structure of the Egyptian population may be the result of further influence of neighbouring populations on this ancestral population. - Source
quote:"...the present study on the Y-chromosome haplotype shows that there are northern and southern Y-haplotypes in Egypt. The main Y-haplotype V is a northern haplotype, with a significantly different frequency in the north compared to the south of the country: frequencies of haplotype V are 51.9% in the Delta (location A), 24.2% in Upper Egypt (location B), and 17.4% in Lower Nubia (location C). On the other hand, haplotype IV is a typical southern haplotype, being almost absent in A (1.2%), and preponderant in B (27.3%) and C (39.1%). Haplotype XI also shows a preponderance in the south (in C, 30.4%; B, 28.8%) compared to the north (11.7% in A) of the country. "It is interesting to relate this peculiar north/south differentiation, a pattern of genetic variation deriving from the two uniparentally inherited genetic systems (mtDNA and Y chromosome), to specific historic events. Since the beginning of Egyptian history (3200-3100 B.C.), the legendary king Menes united Upper and Lower Egypt. Migration from north to south may coincide with the Pharaonic colonization of Nubia, which occurred initially during the Middle Kingdom (12th Dynasty, 1991-1785 B.C.), and more permanently during the New Kingdom, from the reign of Thotmosis III (1490-1437 B.C.). The main migration from south to north may coincide with the 25th Dynasty (730-655 B.C.), when kings from Napata (in Nubia) conquered Egypt."
(Lucotte et al. 2003)
* * *
Lucotte's findings hardly support your gross distortions. He actually identifies the presence of southern haplotypes in Egypt in great frequency. The Haplotypes sampled, which were the objects of his study were V, XI, and IV.. All of these are entirely more dominant in Egyptians and other Africans than in Europeans and near easterners. V has its highest frequency in Africa, and so does XI and IV. The fact that Falasha Jews ("Black Jews") of Ethiopia have a higher percentage of V than most near easterners says a lot about its origins specifically.
As a matter of fact, there is definite lineage ties between the Egyptians and various other supra/sub-Saharan Africans by way of the Y-Chromosome:
A review of the recent literature indicates that there are male lineage ties between African peoples who have been traditionally labeled as being ‘‘racially’’ different, with ‘‘racially’’ implying an ontologically deep divide. The PN2 transition, a Y chromosome marker, defines a lineage (within the YAPţ derived haplogroup E or III) that emerged in Africa probably before the last glacial maximum, but after the migration of modern humans from Africa (see Semino et al., 2004) This mutation forms a clade that has two daughter subclades (defined by the biallelic markers M35/215 (or 215/M35) and M2) that unites numerous phenotypically variant African populations from the supra-Saharan, Saharan, and sub-Saharan regions based on current data - American Journal of Human Biology (2004)
quote:"The Hpal (np3,592) mitochondrial DNA marker is a selectively neutral mutation that is very common in sub-Saharan Africa.... From 29 [Merotic Nubian] individuals analysed, only 15 yield positive amplifications, four of them (26.7%) displaying the sub-Saharan African marker. Hpa 1 (np3,592) marker is present in the sub-Saharan populations at a frequency of 68.7 on average. Thus, the frequency of genes from this area in the Merotic Nubian population can be estimated at around 39% (with a confidence interval from 22% to 55%). The frequency obtained fits in a south-north decreasing gradient of Hpa I (np3,592) along the African continent. Results suggest that morphological changes observed historically in the Nubian populations are more likely to be due to the existence of south-north gene flow through the Nile Valley than to in-situ evolution."
(Fox, 1997)
* * *
In reference to what Tyro asked you initially, if this is a study of some isolated Nubian population than I'm not particularly sure how exactly it would apply to ancient Egyptians, notwithstanding that they were obviously related. Though as pointed out, this doesn't tell us much about the other markers and at what frequency they occurred, nor do we have an idea of what sampled were used to form his "Sub-Saharan African" twig. Most importantly though there is no mention of any "Caucasoid" genes or anything that would indicate a relationship to your said "Caucasoids"..
Back to the Egyptians though. Recent analysis of the Mitochondria links Egypt with Eritrean and Ethiopian populations. See Here (Am. J. Hum. Genet. 75:752–770, 2004)
quote:this summs it up, that the ancient Egyptians were of the Caucasiod race, and not of the Negroid race, and like Numida-Kabyle said you can't find the origin of people in art since its art, and it has a symbolic meaning. I also want to say that Egyptians are closely related to Berbers not to Black Africans, and the Arab influnece on the whole of North Africa is small. The Egpytians were Caucasiods with Semitic-Berberid and Nordic elements in their population. Further prove their are Egyptian posters who have disagreed and provided evidence that the ancient Egyptians are not Negroid but rather Caucasiod. Greek Writiers has described the Egyptians to be similar phenotype to the people of Northern India, we know that people of Northern India are infact sub-brance of the Caucasiod race. Also we must take to account the racial similarities and aswell lanagauge between the Egyptians and the Berbers. Ofcouse Egyptians are not Berber, but they seem to have a common ancestor.
No takers lol
Dude, is this a joke? None of your so-called evidence mentioned anything about any "Caucasoids", especially Nordics (Ha!). In addition, none of the evidence cited would even suggest such a relationship since none of the genetic markers cited suggest any relationship with Europeans, nor does any of the cranial reviews, even from that ancient paper from Coon, who uses the pseudoscientific, and long debunked "Hamite" classification. It is easy to see that there were never any "Caucasoids" in any notable numbers in the early Nile valley, including Egypt's classical period. In fact, all indication points to an internal continuation of development in indigenous northeast Africa, which maintained its self culturally and biologically for millenia. Egyptians and their southern neighbors were never isolated from each other and they've interacted since time immemorable, needless to say that they shared a common origin. All of this before the arbitrary and discredited racial term "Caucasoid" poked its ugly head above the surface and far away from the people that it was applied to. Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
WHITE NORD your thread was deleted because it was STUPID and like sundita said "trying to push this outdated pseudoscience from such a Notoriously Rejected fringe theorist
Posts: 229 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
I wouldn't use the word stupid. At least he cited some pseudo"science" unlike celts and others who just use emotions and gut feelings on their claims. And celts and others were "debating". W Nord should of put this junk in this thread instead starting a new thread with more of the same.
Once he stays clean - what is the problem.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Nefar: WHITE NORD your thread was deleted because it was STUPID and like sundita said "trying to push this outdated pseudoscience from such a Notoriously Rejected fringe theorist
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: At least he cited some pseudo"science" unlike celts and others who just use emotions and gut feelings on their claims.
Once he stays clean - what is the problem.
I'd say what was STUPID was the fact that this white Nord character actually believed that his sources supported his nonsense claims. But you do have a point; he is much more respectable than Celt and the others who won't even TRY and appeal to science/evidence to back these misguided assertions. Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
This thread is and has been essentially STORMFRONT II, and which should have been locked and/or deleted a looong time ago. The Ancient Egyptians have already identified their ethnicity, over and over again, and yet we continue to debate "MY OPINION of the race of the Ancient Egyptians..."
This is a nut thread... Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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You're good Sundiata. These links provided by you ought to shut those so-called experts up once and for all. And some on this thread have been saying that only Nordic whites can have red hair, but you proved with that picture of the Samburu warrior that pure blacks can have natural red hair too. I call for an investigation and shutdown of all 4 laboratories. Posts: 197 | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Lucotte's findings hardly support your gross distortions. He actually identifies the presence of southern haplotypes in Egypt in great frequency. The Haplotypes sampled, which were the objects of his study were V, XI, and IV.. All of these are entirely more dominant in Egyptians and other Africans than in Europeans and near easterners. V has its highest frequency in Africa, and so does XI and IV. The fact that Falasha Jews ("Black Jews") of Ethiopia have a higher percentage of V than most near easterners says a lot about its origins specifically.
All correct.
In a Nile Valley context V,XI and IV are E3b2, E3b1 and possibly....E3a.
All of these haplotype are African in origin.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
White Nord should not be censored because his posts don't conform to what we project here. He must be heard and given a chance at analysis repsonse and rebuttal regardless of what kind of relationship he holds with the moderator here when they both intracted on some other forum.
I hope we're not seeing the beginnings of a trend where the mod drags his external arguments over to this forum for us to handle his "light weight."
If we wanted to address other forums and their views we would go there. We don't want ES AE&E to become an appendage of Eurocentric sites or a mere reactionary forum to foil proud whites who missed out on their glory days when the likes of Madison Grant and Cartoon Coon and their ilk where the serious scholarship.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
They don't say caucasoid but know that's what they mean by Eurasian.
While Kring et al's 1999 study does use precise regionally distinct populations, each population hasn't contributed a sample size of at least 50 individuals (a problem of quite a few genetic reports) and it suffers oversampling from certain particular key populations. As such, the report though thorough is really focused on basically three precise groups. The results cannot be extrapolated to generically apply to overall regions. We can only guess that the results hold true for unsampled groups/cities/neighborhoods.
Also, we have to keep in mind that Krings (1999) is about mtDNA not NRY. Any conclusions valid or erroneous are based on female lineages and can't be compared one-to-one with male lineage observations, though similar patterns are expected since the males and females of a region usually share the same culture heritage and overall ethnic ancestry. The report recommends "similar analyses of autosomal and Y-chromosomal loci, which are in progress, are needed to confirm and extend the conclusions of the present study."
Considering that Kerma (the southernmost Nubian locus) is closer to and easier to travel to Aswan and Qena than it is to Kordofan (the northernmost Sudanese loci) it'd be small surprise to find Egypt and Nubia genetically closer to each other than either is to southern Sudan. This is suggested by a statement in the summary.
quote: Spatial autocorrelation analysis demonstrates a smooth gradient of decreasing genetic similarity of mtDNA types as geographic distance between sampling localities increases, strongly suggesting gene flow along the Nile, with no evident barriers.
This isn't to say southern Sudani populations are strangers to the mid Nile Valley. Huy's tomb wall paintings are evidence of intermingling between all three populations since at least 3400 years ago.
The study makes a few far flung statements outside of genetic expertise which are probably from Welsby, the Egyptian antiquities member of the research team. One such statement contradicts the above quote from the summary. The report offers the following political, cultural and linquistic affinities of the populations.
code:
S SUDAN pastoral nomadic NiloSaharan (Nilotic) NUBIA occasionally united kingdoms NiloSaharan (Nubian) EGYPT centralized state Afrisan (AEL Arabic)
Here's the contradiction about barriers concluded from that assesment.
quote: Thus, this evidence suggests that there was a barrier between the northern and southern portions of the Nile River Valley and that the latter was a cul-de-sac, rather than a corridor, for human migration.
I don't see how political structure and language make for a migratory cul-de-sac or corridor. It seems to me that conditions inducing travel, settlement, and the like would determines those things.
As for the mtDNA, its separated into two broad sweeping categories
code:
SOUTHERN sub-Saharan African T @ 16223 C @ 16311 HpaI present @ 3592 NORTHERN Eurasian C @ 16223 T @ 16311 HpaI absent @ 3592
Assignment of mtDNA was by a majority of those three loci, 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 3. The report holds to this classification methodology even though a 2/3 class-by-site could contradict full mtDNA database classification. For instance, one of the northern by 2/3 site majority samples was found to be identical to two Songhai and two Kikuyu when full sequencing was employed. Nonetheless it remained as Eurasian! This was so because the weight for sub-Saharan inclusion relied on the presense of HpaI since it's proposed to be of single sub-Saharan origin. In this we can see the makeover of the old physical anthropology's "true negro" myth carried over into the new population genetics anthropology.
The Egyptian samples from Mansoura to Qena were pooled together. The Egyptian Aswan samples were pooled with the Sudanese Nubians. The southern Sudani were pooled.
Intragroup diversity figures were negligible with all being above 95% Southern mtDNA diversity was greatest among the south Sudanis and least among Egyptians. Northern mtDNA diversity was greatest among Egyptians and least among Nubians.
The research team threw out 20 of 110 polymorphic sites used to arrive at diversity frequencies because they didn't fit the Hasegawa classification scheme. They say this exclusion had no effect on the reported diversity trends. Diversity trends were only visible due to slowly evolving sites. For south Sudanis this means that 8 out of 11 northern mtDNA types weren't included in diversity results. A similar effect was enacted for southern mtDNA types in Egyptians.
Overall, south Sudanis had the highest number of different mtDNA types. Nubias had the lowest number of mtDNA types. The report never lists what the mtDNA types actually are (i.e., L5, M1, U6, or whatnot). South Sudanis came outas 80.3% southern and 19.7% northern. Nubians were found to be 54.9% southern and 45.1% northern. While the Egyptians were 25.4% southern and 74.6% northern.
The southern value in Egyptians is a very substantial 25.4% even though 58% of the Egyptian data came from one town in eastern delta. How much higher would it've been if the sampling were balanced or even included Aswan as Egyptian instead of Nubian?
The authors' conclusion that Nubia is closer to Egypt than either are to the south Sudan is hardly supported by what raw data there is that's supplied in the report. Nubia appears as exactly what its geography implies, somewhere midway between both but slightly closer to south Sudan instead of Egypt because the eastern delta town Mansoura unbalanced the Egyptian figures biasing in favor of Eurasian miscegenation.
Thus Nubia has a 54.9% southern mtDNA more diverse than the southern mtDNA in Egypt.
My conclusion? There are quite a few points of methodology I've layed out in my analysis that cause me to wish for a more honest report though even with deliberate skewing even the eastern delta cannot escape its heavy, so-called, "sub-Saharan" maternal genetic base.
quote:Originally posted by White Nord: From: Topic: Debunking Afrocentric Trash
]??? I just logged in earlier and my thread got deleted with not one solid reply to the evidence presented. Once again
Anthropology
EGYPTIANS
Gentic evidence that modern and as well ancient Egyptians are Caucasiods
Genetics
"To assess the extent to which the Nile River Valley has been a corridor for human migrations between Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa, we analyzed mtDNA variation in 224 individuals from various locations along the river. Sequences of the first hypervariable segment (HV1) of the mtDNA control region and a polymorphic HpaI site at position 3592 allowed us to designate each mtDNA as being of 'northern' or 'southern' affiliation. Proportions of northern and southern mtDNA differed significantly between Egypt, Nubia, and the southern Sudan.
"...we can infer that the migration of northern mtDNA types to the south is older than the migration of southern mtDNA types to the north (or that there has been less gene flow from north to south than from south to north along the Nile River Valley) and that Egypt and Nubia have had more genetic contact than either has had with the southern Sudan. Moreover, we can tentatively infer that these migrations occurred recently enough to fall within the period of the documented historical record of human populations in the Nile River Valley."
(Krings et al. 1999) * * *
... summs it up, that the ancient Egyptians were of the Caucasiod race,
No takers lol
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Nefar: WHITE NORD your thread was deleted because it was STUPID and like sundita said "trying to push this outdated pseudoscience from such a Notoriously Rejected fringe theorist
I don't know who deleted White Nord's thread but it was not me and I do not agree with it being deleted.
The point of this forum is to discuss Ancient Egypt.
His thread was on-topic and it was not inflammatory.
His political views are not relevant to his right to freespeech within the guidelines of the board which we will be writing up soon.
I also do not think this thread is realistic if its purpose is to confine all racial topics to one thread. People have a choice about what subjects concerning Egypt they wish to discuss. This forum has always been centered around race as long as I have been here and much longer than that.
If people want to discuss other aspects of Ancient Egyptian culture they should make more threads related to other interests.
So long as they are not spamming, people are free to make as many race-related threads about Ancient Egypt as they want and should not fear unwarranted thread deletions.
Posts: 1203 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Wally: This thread is and has been essentially STORMFRONT II, and which should have been locked and/or deleted a looong time ago. The Ancient Egyptians have already identified their ethnicity, over and over again, and yet we continue to debate "MY OPINION of the race of the Ancient Egyptians..."
This is a nut thread...
Sooo, NUTS, you are free to continue with your blabber...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Celt: Written records from these people to the South that predate Egyptian written texts please?
Evidence of proto-hieroglyphics were found in Qustul (Ta-Seti) and Sayala (Wawat) a.k.a. 'Nubia'.
But then again, Sundiata answered that question also.
As for the appearance of "White Nord", I agree that this thread is starting to turn into another stormfront. Although as Musa states, since this is a free public forum, the guy is free to post his silly notions so they can easily be refuted. Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: White Nord should not be censored because his posts don't conform to what we project here. He must be heard and given a chance at analysis repsonse and rebuttal regardless of what kind of relationship he holds with the moderator here when they both intracted on some other forum.
I hope we're not seeing the beginnings of a trend where the mod drags his external arguments over to this forum for us to handle his "light weight."
If we wanted to address other forums and their views we would go there. We don't want ES AE&E to become an appendage of Eurocentric sites or a mere reactionary forum to foil proud whites who missed out on their glory days when the likes of Madison Grant and Cartoon Coon and their ilk where the serious scholarship.
I was thinking the same thing^
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
If cultures along the Nile were lumped together in a historic framework the way cultures along and near the Tigris and Euphrates are, the cultures of the Nile Valley would be far older and present a continuous tradition that culminated in the civilization of ancient Egypt. Just as Sumer and Babylon are lumped together as Mesopotamian, so should Egypt, Kerma, Meroe and Khartoum be considered Nile Valley....
quote: Paliolithic:
Heavy excavations in the south most regions of Lower Nubia at Wadi Halfa 1 in Sudan lead to the discovery of the oldest human evidence in the Nile Valley dating to the Paliolithic Age (Qadan- 13000-8000 BC).Other Paleolithic sites were located likewise in the southern portions of Lower Nubia including Toshka, and Gebel Sahaba 2.
At Toshka domesticated wild cattle were put on top of many of the burials, indicating the practice of a certain ritual, perhaps the ritual of scarifies. The burial pits were mostly circula that perhaps lead to the building of the mound structure. However in most of the sites the deceased had no specific body orientation although contracted positioning was common. No significant finds were recovered.
Neolithic: No Neolithic graves in Lower Nubia. Inspite of the intensive archeology of Lower Nubia, the only Neolithic discoveries have only been found in southern Nubia In Khartoum, Kadruka, Shabona 3, el Ghaba 4, and Kadero 5 . However the most extensive of the excavations were at Khartoum dating to about 8005 years ago 6. sudan_prehistory_pottery BOWL WITH TWO SPOUTS, SIEVE, SPOUTED VESSEL FROM KADRUKA CEMETERY. NEOLITHIC.
SOURCE: WILDUNG, DIETRICH. SUDAN: ANCIENT KINGDOMS OF THE NILE
The discoveries point to the existence of a small settled village or community at Khartoum. The bodies were contracted and laid on their backs, thus symbolizing birth. This was the first indication for the beginning of the religious concept that later became embodied on the cult of Re, the sun god. The bodies were for the most part naked. Many burials contained pottery showing the first signs for mortuary offering that continued throughout the ancient history of Nubia.
Not much burial goods were found except for some water mollusk shells from Khartoum, some ostrich feathers (for head decoration) and other few toilet ornaments. At Kadero and el Ghaba large cemeteries have been discovered outside of their settlements.
Dating to the Neolithic period, at el Ghaba considerable amount of circular or sub-circular pits (diameters varying from 120cm to 160 cm.). There, bodies were adorned with personal commodities like bracelets and necklaces and lip-plugs, stone and bone tools, pottery, ostrich feathers, water mollusuc shells.
Clothe made of natural local materials, headrests and footrests and traces of facial painting perhaps an indication tribal identity.
From these graves we start to see the first culture of Nubia taking shape. The habit for burying in circular pits is going to continue throughout Nubia’s ancient history starting from the Kerma, disappearing in the Napatan and Merioitic period, and appearing again in the Christian era. The existence for mollusuc shells, probable obtained from the red sea is an indication for trade, exchange. kadruka PHOTOGRAPH: KADRUKA, SFDAS EL-KADADA, NEOLITHIC TOMB OF AN ELITE WITH A HUMAN SACRIFICE OF A YOUTH.
SOURCE: WILDUNG, DIETRICH. SUDAN: ANCIENT KINGDOMS OF THE NILE Slight differences of burials at Kadero, indicate the formation of tribal differences in Nubia. For example in Kadero the bodies are contracted but on their sides, with orientation. Different in the material goods asserts the accuracy of the assumption. Pillows and mats, fragments of malachite among offerings, Vases are among the grave findings. The graves of Kadero are the first indication for animal sacrifices as peaces of animal bones of dogs were found. Human sacrifices were discovered in El-Kadada.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: If cultures along the Nile were lumped together in a historic framework the way cultures along and near the Tigris and Euphrates are, the cultures of the Nile Valley would be far older and present a continuous tradition that culminated in the civilization of ancient Egypt.
Correct. And this is exactly why the ws.t discourse does not want us to think in the holestic terms - of Nile Valley Civilisation -, but rather in terms of "Egypt vs. Nubia", which allows thems to ply their usual mischief of historical looting, whilst hoping that Africans will repeat their garbage and so unintentionally aid them.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Also, we have to keep in mind that Krings (1999) is about mtDNA not NRY. Any conclusions valid or erroneous are based on female lineages and can't be compared one-to-one with male lineage observations, though similar patterns are expected since the males and females of a region usually share the same culture heritage and overall ethnic ancestry...
...inclined to go with the highlighted...paternal line of ancestry may not necessarily be predicted by mtDNA, as the obvious case is in coastal Northwest Africans, for example.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Assignment of mtDNA was by a majority of those three loci, 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 3. The report holds to this classification methodology even though a 2/3 class-by-site could contradict full mtDNA database classification. For instance, one of the northern by 2/3 site majority samples was found to be identical to two Songhai and two Kikuyu when full sequencing was employed. Nonetheless it remained as Eurasian! This was so because the weight for sub-Saharan inclusion relied on the presense of HpaI since it's proposed to be of single sub-Saharan origin. In this we can see the makeover of the old physical anthropology's "true negro" myth carried over into the new population genetics anthropology.
Indeed, the authors rely on just the hypervariable region, which as they acknowledge is known to be limited on the very probable potential of harboring "parallel mutations", and the absence or presence of the restriction enzyme identified site of HapI site. They say:
Utilizing three sites in this manner should minimize incorrect classification of mtDNA types; however, because the two sites in HV1 are subject to repeated mutations (Hasegawa et al. 1993), we were concerned that some incorrect classification might nevertheless occur....
Approximately one-third of the Nile River Valley mtDNA types could be unambiguously classified on the basis of this database comparison; the results were nearly completely concordant with the classification based on the three sites, with the single discrepancy involving an Egyptian mtDNA that, on the basis of the three sites, was classified as northern but, on the basis of the database comparison, was classified as southern because it was identical to sequences found in two Songhai from Mali and two Kikuyu from Kenya (Watson et al. 1996). Because alteration of the classification of this one sequence does not significantly change any of the results that follow, this Egyptian mtDNA was still classified as northern, in accordance with the results from use of the three sites.
But what do we know of L3 based lineages, do they all have what the authors call?...
In addition, it has been proposed that the HpaI site at 3592 has a single origin in sub-Saharan Africa
Would M1 for instance have this site detected as positive?
I see the method used herein, almost akin to using RFLP in Y chromosomes and microsatellite motifs, without having details on binary markers that could clearly define the monophyletic units themselves, thereby pooling otherwise different lineages based on absence or presence of certain restriction sites. We've seen this in the case of Y chromosomes, wherein E-M78, E-M81 and some other yet-to-be identified lineage were pooled together based on certain RFLP sequences, but when binary markers were tested, these related but distinct lineages came to the fore. Using two hypervariable segment sites for analysis, has definitely got to be one of the weakest aspects of this study.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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...But what do we know of L3 based lineages, do they all have what the authors call?...
In addition, it has been proposed that the HpaI site at 3592 has a single origin in sub-Saharan Africa
Would M1 for instance have this site detected as positive?...
In relation to this question, we have:
The main sub-Saharan African haplotypes, thus, are characterized by a combination of 10394DdeI(+)/10397AluI(-)/3592HpaI(+) markers (haplogroup L, comprising the LI and L2 lineages) (Chen et al. 1995, 2000). A less frequent group of haplotypes lacks the African-specific 3592 HpaI marker [10394DdeI(+)/ 10397AluI(-)/3592HpaI(-)] (Chen et al. 1995, 2000) and has been designated as haplogroup L3 (Watson et al. 1997). A minority of African haplotypes (2.3% of Africans) lack all three of these mutations [10394DdeI(-)/10397AluI(-)/ 3592HpalI(-)]. Some align with the European lineage U (Chen et al. 2000), but a number of the mtDNAs belong to branches of the African haplogroup L3, itself derived from African haplogroup L1 (Watson et al 1997). - Clemencia Rodas et al., Mitochondrial DNA studies show asymmetrical Amerindian admixture in Afro-Colombian and Mestizo populations, 2003.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Oh and it is obvious that this Miguel Antunes is either Jaime alias a dozen other banned screen names, OR just another nut with the same personal issues i.e. the the refusal to accept the modern social label of 'black'. Does he have a problem with the 'white' label too? It doesn't seem so.
Hey Miguel, this is what is truly white:
Swedes
Nope...
Danes
Nope...
Estonians
white Australian (British descent?)
close but no...
What is your point?
What is obvious is that you have no idea what you are talking about. I am not Jaime, whoever he may be, nor was I ever banned, in any forum I frequented.
No person is white? No **** Sherlock, I have been saying so for quite sometime, I certanly don't identify as white or label people as white.
My point? Don't use silly terms like black, white, yellow, brown, red and whatnot to describe "race" which doesn't even exist.
Now I can understand in a colloquial setting simply saying that AE were black africans, but in a forum which is supposed to be serious..where I have been admonished for not being serious enough, simply saying "AE were Black African" sounds very amateurish and in essence incorrect.
You are right on one thing though, I don't care about the modern social labed of black. Why should I? It's not as if societies are never wrong, the same with their ideas..
Nevermind that as I showed the "modern social label of black" varies around the world...rendering the term in the useless. Yes, it gives a certain idea, but it can only go so far..
Instead, simply saying that AE looked similar to Upper Egyptians, Nubians, Beja, etc gets the point much better.
Posts: 218 | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Oh and it is obvious that this Miguel Antunes is either Jaime alias a dozen other banned screen names, OR just another nut with the same personal issues i.e. the the refusal to accept the modern social label of 'black'.
quote:Originally posted by Nefar: WHITE NORD your thread was deleted because it was STUPID and like sundita said "trying to push this outdated pseudoscience from such a Notoriously Rejected fringe theorist
I don't know who deleted White Nord's thread but it was not me and I do not agree with it being deleted.
The point of this forum is to discuss Ancient Egypt.
His thread was on-topic and it was not inflammatory.
His political views are not relevant to his right to freespeech within the guidelines of the board which we will be writing up soon.
I also do not think this thread is realistic if its purpose is to confine all racial topics to one thread. People have a choice about what subjects concerning Egypt they wish to discuss. This forum has always been centered around race as long as I have been here and much longer than that.
If people want to discuss other aspects of Ancient Egyptian culture they should make more threads related to other interests.
So long as they are not spamming, people are free to make as many race-related threads about Ancient Egypt as they want and should not fear unwarranted thread deletions.
It was apparently deleted by ausar, as I didn't delete it and I agree with your points.
Posts: 113 | From: Dayr al-Barsha | Registered: May 2007
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posted
Of course they would. At least in many places. Some places of the world have different definitions of black, but in the USA and Europe they would be black for sure since those groups I named are considered as such.
Posts: 218 | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Oh and it is obvious that this Miguel Antunes is either Jaime alias a dozen other banned screen names, OR just another nut with the same personal issues i.e. the the refusal to accept the modern social label of 'black'.
Yes this is clear.
quote: To which Miguel Antunes responds with: Lol, of course...
So which is it? Are you or are you not, Jaimie?
Nevermind. It doesn't matter because you still suffer from the same psychological issue anyway. Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I think the problem is for Eurocentrics to visual AE as West Africans that is why Hawass would say AE were black but a different type of black and the likes like Miguel having a problem with the term indigenous black Africans. In their minds they visualize West Africans(African Americans) who they despise.. . . . so maybe indigenous black hamitic East African is a better term. Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Actually it is better for people to realize the truth that black African means black African and is a very broad range of types. Just like white European cannot be pigeonholed into British versus Icelandic, neither can black African be pigeonholed either. So the problem is a mindset that wants to separate Egypt from Africa and black Africans, not with the word black African or the features of black Africans across Africa from East Africa to West Africa, Central Africa or South Africa. That mindset wants Egyptians separated from ANY TYPE of black African in ANY PART of Africa, meaning not really black African at all. This is why they have problems with the word, which means they have problems with black Africans being in Egypt period, not because of any problems with anthropological, dictionary or social meanings of black, but because of an IDEOLOGY of blackness that means BACKWARDS, INFERIOR, LAZY and DUMB and most importantly, not white. The whole fallacy of the argument that the Egyptians were some OTHER type of black Africans can be seen in the fact that among ALL AFRICAN groups you can find the SAME FEATURES as found in ancient Egypt, although not in the same percentages. So you can find Egyptian looking features in Mali, Nigeria, Cameroon, Rwanda, Kenya, South Africa, Zimbabwe and everywhere ELSE there are black Africans. Therefore, it is a ridiculous CONCEPT to begin with, meaning TOTALLY DIVORCED from reality and really based on IDEOLOGY which is one of trying to find some way to separate ancient Egypt from black Africa. There is no ONE TYPE of black African and therefore to try and suggest that ancient Egypt represented some "special" subset of African features TOTALLY UNRELATED to other African features is blatant B.S.
Posts: 8897 | Registered: May 2005
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^^"Hamite" carries the racial overtone and connotation of "Dark Caucasoid", so maybe the word should be left in the trash where it belongs. "Black African" will do just fine.. Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I think the problem is for Eurocentrics to visual AE as West Africans that is why Hawass would say AE were black but a different type of black...
Actually, according to Hawass the Egyptians were not black at all. Or at least he fails to define what he considers "black". More specifically he says the Egyptians were different from "the negro" and that they looked different from them. Again, he fails to define what he meant by "negro" but I very much assume he means the stereotypical "true negro".
quote:...and the likes like Miguel having a problem with the term indigenous black Africans...
Actually he doesn't have a problem with indigenous Africans, just the label 'black'. He abhors the use and very existence of the color label 'black'.
quote:...In their minds they visualize West Africans(African Americans) who they despise.. . . . so maybe indigenous black hamitic East African is a better term.
Judging by his behavior as well as his recent "negro" claims, Hawass while of course not admitting it, does have racist views or tendencies. One could say that this was inherited from his Arab culture, but judging by his very intimately close ties to the West, I'd say he is a perfect example of Ausar's observation of Arab racism being influenced by the West.
Miguel, is someone who rejects the modern color labels of 'black' and 'white', and while his reasons are logical for doing so it still does not change the simple matter that such labels are used by not only the West but in much of the world and have been for quite some time now.
Both Hawass and Jaimie, I mean Miguel, share one thing in common and that is Keme(negro)phobia! Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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So what are you saying?... That the very existence of the human race depends on redheads??! LMFO ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Though as pointed out, this doesn't tell us much about the other markers and at what frequency they occurred, nor do we have an idea of what sampled were used to form his "Sub-Saharan African" twig. Most importantly though there is no mention of any "Caucasoid" genes or anything that would indicate a relationship to your said "Caucasoids".. 
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