quote:Originally posted by Willing Thinker {What Box}:
...Good point, but you said HUNDREDS? I think I have seen some walls full of egyptians on movies or TV or something. And I've seen walls with a couple Egyptians on here, but could you point me to some, or at least one of the multitudes that you so speak of?...[/QB]
There are over a hundred on page 9 of this thread alone. But to be clear, if you take ONE of the tomb murals I posted and go and look at ALL of the murals in that ONE tomb you will count more than a hundred. And that is just for a SMALL tomb. Then add all the tombs for ONE period together and you get a WHOLE LOT of images.
The point must be made that it doesn't MATTER how MANY images there are of dark Egyptians from ancient Egypt. Those who REFUSE to see anything but white Eurasians as the ancient Egyptians will ALWAYS push that view, NO MATTER WHAT evidence exists.....
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Willing Thinker {What EDIT :
Damn Mansa those videos have alot of pics!
quote:Originally posted by Mansa Musa: There are so many pics in this thread that it is hard to load the page. Overkill? Well atleast the truth is being spread.
I'd like to contribute some videos to this discussion as well.
posted
^ The videos were beautiful and just so THERE IT IS-- TRUTH. Of course I wasn't surprised but I was still disturbed by some of the ridiculous, incoherent, racist garbage responses.
It's as Doug says, these people are not rational or logical at all so no matter how many tomb paintings or portraits you show them, they will deny it all and continue spewing their vitriol. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mansa Musa: There are so many pics in this thread that it is hard to load the page. Overkill? Well atleast the truth is being spread.
I'd like to contribute some videos to this discussion as well.
posted
Nope he's not the author, but I'm glad to see that people enjoy my video's though. You all should also check out this guy called "blackhaze21" on youtube, his videos are a lot more informative than my simple slide shows lol.
Posts: 4 | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by ImAKing1982: Nope he's not the author, but I'm glad to see that people enjoy my video's though. You all should also check out this guy called "blackhaze21" on youtube, his videos are a lot more informative than my simple slide shows lol.
GREAT!
Yes, I have seen blackhaze21's videos. So, can you embed URL so I can use it on my blog?
quote:Originally posted by ImAKing1982: Nope he's not the author, but I'm glad to see that people enjoy my video's though. You all should also check out this guy called "blackhaze21" on youtube, his videos are a lot more informative than my simple slide shows lol.
Welcome to the board, King. At first, because of your avatar, I thought you were Al-Takuri.
And yes, please allow embeds because they allow your vid to be posted on blogs and displayed on boards. Ofcourse this will also give the vids more exposure as people are more likely to watch a vid readily on display.
Posts: 1203 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Willing Thinker {What Box}:
...Good point, but you said HUNDREDS? I think I have seen some walls full of egyptians on movies or TV or something. And I've seen walls with a couple Egyptians on here, but could you point me to some, or at least one of the multitudes that you so speak of?...
There are over a hundred on page 9 of this thread alone. But to be clear, if you take ONE of the tomb murals I posted and go and look at ALL of the murals in that ONE tomb you will count more than a hundred. And that is just for a SMALL tomb. Then add all the tombs for ONE period together and you get a WHOLE LOT of images.
The point must be made that it doesn't MATTER how MANY images there are of dark Egyptians from ancient Egypt. Those who REFUSE to see anything but white Eurasians as the ancient Egyptians will ALWAYS push that view, NO MATTER WHAT evidence exists..... [/QB]
Yeah, meant to get back to you on that!
I posted that after reading previous pages, and I have since seen the myriad photos and pictures..DAMN!
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ The videos were beautiful and just so THERE IT IS-- TRUTH. Of course I wasn't surprised but I was still disturbed by some of the ridiculous, incoherent, racist garbage responses.
It's as Doug says, these people are not rational or logical at all so no matter how many tomb paintings or portraits you show them, they will deny it all and continue spewing their vitriol.
Yeah, they're really uninformed, sadly, I've grown accustomed to it.
quote:Originally posted by Mansa Musa:
quote:Originally posted by ImAKing1982: Nope he's not the author, but I'm glad to see that people enjoy my video's though. You all should also check out this guy called "blackhaze21" on youtube, his videos are a lot more informative than my simple slide shows lol.
Welcome to the board, King. At first, because of your avatar, I thought you were Al-Takuri.
Me too lol!
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
Blackhaze video is really really great. There are people doing some serious work out there. He should start mass producing and selling some of these. I already asked him on info on this. People see these shots who can have any doubt!!!!
quote:Originally posted by Arwa:
quote:Originally posted by ImAKing1982: Nope he's not the author, but I'm glad to see that people enjoy my video's though. You all should also check out this guy called "blackhaze21" on youtube, his videos are a lot more informative than my simple slide shows lol.
GREAT!
Yes, I have seen blackhaze21's videos. So, can you embed URL so I can use it on my blog?
Thank You
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Nice pics Doug, though perhaps the title of this thread should be changed to 'The portraits of the Ancient Egyptians'.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Nice pics Doug, though perhaps the title of this thread should be changed to 'The portraits of the Ancient Egyptians'.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Nice pics Doug, though perhaps the title of this thread should be changed to 'The portraits of the Ancient Egyptians'.
Given the question, I feel it is best to let the ancient Egyptians speak for themselves.
I had come across some nice images of tombs with Amun depicted in full form and jet black, along with some other dieties, but for the life of me I cannot remember where I saw them at. It was somewhere in a temple associated with Ramses II, I think.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: This angle of Djoser I never saw before
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Nice pics Doug, though perhaps the title of this thread should be changed to 'The portraits of the Ancient Egyptians'.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Should this brother be considered the "founding father"
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Now that I got this down!! Here goes
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: This angle of Djoser I never saw before
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Nice pics Doug, though perhaps the title of this thread should be changed to 'The portraits of the Ancient Egyptians'.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
For the newbies. . . . . . According to Encyclopedia Britannica – The Beja draws astriking resemblance to the AE. Here are pictures of Bejas. DRAW YOUR CONCLUSIONS FROM THE PICTURES BELOW. Even the British are saying AE is black.
From Encyclopedia Britannica:
The population of the Nile valley and the delta, which are home to the overwhelming majority of Egyptians, forms a fairly homogeneous group whose dominant physical characteristics are the result of the admixture of the indigenous African population with those of Arab ancestry. Within urban areas (the northern delta towns especially), foreign invaders and immigrants—Persians, Romans, Greeks, Crusaders, Turks, and Circassians—long ago left behind a more heterogeneous mixture of physical types. Blond and red hair, blue eyes, and lighter complexions are more common there than in the rural areas of the delta, where peasant agriculturists, the fellahin, have been less affected by intermarriage with outside groups.
The inhabitants of what is termed the middle Nile valley—roughly the area from Cairo to Aswan—are known as the Sa'idi (Upper Egyptians). Though the Sa'idi as a group tend to be more culturally conservative, they are ethnically similar to Lower Egyptians. In the extreme southern valley, Nubians differ culturally and ethnically from other Egyptians. Their kinship structure goes beyond lineage; they are divided into clans and broader segments, whereas among other Egyptians of the valley and of Lower Egypt only known members of the lineage are recognized as kin. Although Nubians have mixed and intermarried with members of other ethnic groups—particularly with Arabs—the dominant physical characteristics tend to be those of sub-Saharan Africa. . . . . . . The southern section of the Eastern Desert is inhabited by the Beja, who bear a distinct resemblance to the surviving depictions of predynastic Egyptians. The Egyptian Beja are divided into two tribes—the 'Ababdah and the Bisharin. . . . .
Arabic Bujah, nomadic people grouped into tribes and occupying mountain country between the Red Sea and the Nile and 'Atbarah rivers from the latitude of Aswan southeastward to the Eritrean Plateau—that is, from southeastern Egypt through the Sudan and into Eritrea. Numbering about 1,900,000 in the early 21st century, the Beja are descended from peoples who have lived in the area since 4000 BC or…
posted
In fcat the last bro looks like Snoop D with his fro out.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: From Encyclopedia Britannica:
The population of the Nile valley and the delta, which are home to the overwhelming majority of Egyptians, forms a fairly homogeneous group whose dominant physical characteristics are the result of the admixture of the indigenous African population with those of Arab ancestry. Within urban areas (the northern delta towns especially), foreign invaders and immigrants—Persians, Romans, Greeks, Crusaders, Turks, and Circassians—long ago left behind a more heterogeneous mixture of physical types. Blond and red hair, blue eyes, and lighter complexions are more common there than in the rural areas of the delta, where peasant agriculturists, the fellahin, have been less affected by intermarriage with outside groups.
Yes, the Britannica was just one of my many sources when I did a history paper on the ethnic/'racial' identity of the Egyptians years back.
*sigh* You would think that such info would be the end all of this this so-called "controversy" (nonsense).
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Yeah. What controversy . For the newbies.. . . Let’s do a test. Choose the “Caucasoid Nordic” type from African-Americans? This should be easy!!! The ksoids have light skin, thin lips, pointy nose, blond/reddish straight hair vs the African Americans having black/brown skin, black kinky/wavy hair, fat lips and broad nose.. . .. Oh and black/brown eyes. See post above for the answer .
SEVERAL POINTS BEING MADE HERE.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Some of the most famous Eurocentric used depictions of ancient egyptians, in comparison with other Africans:
Ramses II, smiting enemies
P.O.Ws from tomb of Horemheb
Wrestlers
^^Seeing as how I used to easily be fooled by stuff like this (and I'm sure others have also, maybe not here), makes them notable imo. Not to forget the tireless flaunting of the depiction of a so-called "Nubian" on the sole of King tut's sandal.
Given what I've learned (especially from this site) about the significance of indigenous African diversity and ancient egyptian artistic convention, I can easily reconcile the perceived distinction between the exaggerated "negro types" and the elongated Africans/Egyptians. One thing however, that doesn't sit well with me and still itches in the back of my mind is the color red distinction. Especially depicted in the scene of Ramses as he smites the foreigners seen above. He's actually painted in the same complexion as the seemingly non-african foreigner (red), while the southerner is depicted as black in color. Maybe this is just a special case? I admit that it is rare to see any Egyptian resembling foreigners in any way, besides Puntites and to a lesser extent, Kushites in some instances.
It makes me wonder just sometimes; did the Egyptians themselves believe in their equivalent of the true negro myth? If not, they sure stereotyped the hell out of some of the other Africans by painting them jet black with almost caricatured features. Seems foolish, but I'm still trying to understand that.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
Actually it isn't a true negro myth. Parts of Sudan are home to some of the darkest people on the continent. That is a fact. However, it is ludicrous to suggest that the only real black Africans are those who are that dark. It is also nonsense to suggest that the medium to dark brown complexions of the AE don't qualify as black.
Many Egyptians are to this day reddish brown and when you see them there is no confusing them with Asiatics. Likewise some Asiatics also did have reddish brown complexions themselves as so-called "Asiatic" features existed among Africans even the darkest Sudanese.
Reddish brown Egyptians:
Ramses II and asiatics from Abydos:
Asiatics were portrayed in a range of features, which sometimes also included reddish brown.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
^Thanx for those pictures, I've never seen them and am used to the standardized "mural of tribes" depictions that show Asiatics to be significantly lighter than Egyptians. It's just hard for me sometimes I guess to interpret the various depictions given the varied diversity seen from the Levant to Sudan. To the point where it is hard to establish by portrait alone who as a whole (population wise), the Egyptians were more closely related to. I can indeed accept that these are realistic depictions of some ancient Sudanese, it is just so convenient that there seems to be a clear distinction between them and the AEs. What settles that I'd assume, is the diversity you speak of and depictions of Northern Sudanese and Puntites who looked very similar. Though I still wonder sometimes about the possible Levantine connection given the said diversity. Or maybe we can attribute this to Levantine variation in general that may have given them particular relationships with other Africans, due to African elements present there, or gene flow between the two regions.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Sundiata: ^Thanx for those pictures, I've never seen them and am used to the standardized "mural of tribes" depictions that show Asiatics to be significantly lighter than Egyptians. It's just hard for me sometimes I guess to interpret the various depictions given the varied diversity seen from the Levant to Sudan. To the point where it is hard to establish by portrait alone who as a whole (population wise), the Egyptians were more closely related to. I can indeed accept that these are realistic depictions of some ancient Sudanese, it is just so convenient that there seems to be a clear distinction between them and the AEs. What settles that I'd assume, is the diversity you speak of and depictions of Northern Sudanese and Puntites who looked very similar. Though I still wonder sometimes about the possible Levantine connection given the said diversity. Or maybe we can attribute this to Levantine variation in general that may have given them particular relationships with other Africans, due to African elements present there, or gene flow between the two regions.
Egyptian art was generalized, therefore, they used a template for each group that they wanted to represent at any given time. If you look at the photos above, all the Egyptians look exactly the same, the asiatics look exactly the same and so do the southerners. The only difference is sometime the coloring is different or the hair and dress. Therefore, you cannot expect it to be a precise anthropological description of all the features of a given population.
Here is another example of Asiatics from Horemheb's tomb at Saqqarah:
-the Fellahins make up about 60% of Egypt. So it sounds like they are in the majority.
QUOTE: Most Egyptians are descended from the successive Arab settlements that followed the Muslim conquest in the 7th century, mixed with the indigenous pre-Islamic population. The typical Egyptian, of mixed heritage, is the fellah, or peasant; the fellahin constitute about 50% of the population. Egyptian Copts (see Coptic church), a Christian minority who constitute nearly 7% of the population, are the least mixed descendants of the pre-Arab population. The Nubians, who live south of Aswan, have been Arabized in religion and culture, although they still speak the Nubian language. Nomads, who live in the semidesert regions, are composed of both Arab and Berber elements. Small minorities of Italians and Greeks live in the cities
http://egyptworld.8k.com/closeegypt.html T he farmer-peasants who work and live on this land are called fellahin (fellah, singular). The fellahin in 2005 comprise about 60 percent, or 46 million of 77 million Egyptians. Gamal Nasser’s grandfather was a fellah in the mud-hut town of Beni Mor, 200 miles south of Cairo in Asiut Province, Upper Egypt where Gamal was born. (2). Gamal’s father obtained a primary school education and left farming to become a government postal employee.
Cairo — Although sixty percent of Egyptians live and work on the land, the thinking of the great mass of fellahin (peasants) seems a mystery to outsiders and educated Egyptian city dwellers as well. Both supporters of the left and the right in Egypt concede that it is the middle class, grown large and strong under Nasser, which controls the political levers in the country. The right pictures the fellahin as a passive, infinitely patient mass, which will accept any regime imposed on it as the will of Allah. The visible left, limited now in Egypt to a small but articulate group of journalists, students and intellectuals, pictures the peasantry — without too much conviction — as a potential seedbed of political unrest, especially as the fellahin watch living standards in the city rise while the lot of the peasant remains basically one of poverty.
Egypt (385,000 square miles) is roughly the size of France and Spain combined (207,000 + 195,000 square miles, respectively) but possesses an amount of arable land only the size of Holland (16,000 square miles).
From the Times/CNN Aug 16th
For 5,000 years or more the status of Egypt's fellahin has been virtually unchanged—at the bottom of the heap. Last week brought them a ray of light: Egypt became the first Arab or Asiatic country with a social security plan. >>>>> The plan provides a retirement pension (maximum amount: $85 a year) for all workers at the age of 65; special benefits for widows, orphans and the disabled—but not for the unemployed. Unlike Americans, Egyptians will get full benefits only if they have no other income. Estimated cost to the Egyptian state: $18 million a year http://www.semp.us/publications/biot_reader.php?BiotID=312
Here is a sample of what they look like. 17th Century girl and early 1900’s man.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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...One thing however, that doesn't sit well with me and still itches in the back of my mind is the color red distinction. Especially depicted in the scene of Ramses as he smites the foreigners seen above. He's actually painted in the same complexion as the seemingly non-african foreigner (red), while the southerner is depicted as black in color. Maybe this is just a special case? I admit that it is rare to see any Egyptian resembling foreigners in any way, besides Puntites and to a lesser extent, Kushites in some instances.
Actually, in that smiting scene you speak of, some of the paint on Ramses had worn off giving it the 'reddish' look you speak of. A closer inspection shows that the original complexion was a dark brown!
The original coloring of Ramses is still fully preserved in other works:
Note Ramses on his chariot
quote:It makes me wonder just sometimes; did the Egyptians themselves believe in their equivalent of the true negro myth? If not, they sure stereotyped the hell out of some of the other Africans by painting them jet black with almost caricatured features. Seems foolish, but I'm still trying to understand that.
Of course not! As explained by some posters in here, the Egyptians depicted the diversity of looks among their southern neighbors. Some southerners looked no different from them, others were darker. Facial features of course varied and did NOT correlate to skin color, thus certain groups of 'Nubian' had jet-black skin but thin lips and long noses-- all of which refutes the very idea of "true negro".
So NO, the Egyptians did not have any such concepts which was created only recently in modern times by white racists.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Too bad there's not a face front closeup of the lower register. the guy 5th from the right with the headband definately has facial features common enough among continental Africans.
posted
One could make the same observation about the Levantine who also has a darker brown blotch remaining on his upper jaw and nose.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Actually, in that smiting scene you speak of, some of the paint on Ramses had worn off giving it the 'reddish' look you speak of. A closer inspection shows that the original complexion was a dark brown!
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Of course such "asiatic" features were found in indigenous Africans. Considering that the Levantines also inhabit similar areas of UV radiation in Arabia and because they have been receiving migrations from Africa, it is not surprising that some would be darker.
But, even with that, much of the art in Egypt is generalized and the depictions are therefore only a general guide on how people looked. That image of an asiatic does not necessarily reflect any individual person as opposed to a general artistic convention. Likewise the colors of the Egyptians and other Southerners also reflected generic conventions in art and not necessarily the ACTUAL color of any specific individual.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
LOL, you guys are good. And my fault alTakuri, I see that that was a naive comment.
The other pictures Doug posted from Horemheb's tomb seem to depict a slight variety of facial features, some looking rather elongated African to some degree (assuming that they are all supposed to be Asiatics), like Takuri observantly points out.. The double standard is that while some "try" and emphasize a distinction made between some of the more southernly Africans and AEs, those directly north, as depicted by the AEs, have very distinct features themselves and while I did bring up the complexion of Ramses (which Djehuti addressed), his countenance is completely different.
Djehuti hit the nail on the head I think, good find! Very convincing, where it looks like a darker-skinned Ramses is smiting a lighter-skinned Asiatic or Lybian (not sure). I noticed the fading on the other depiction also, but only slightly. Just trying to understand a bit, everyone on here is always good with clarifying out of context tomb scenes, among other things.
Good stuff also xyyman!
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: One could make the same observation about the Levantine who also has a darker brown blotch remaining on his upper jaw and nose.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Actually, in that smiting scene you speak of, some of the paint on Ramses had worn off giving it the 'reddish' look you speak of. A closer inspection shows that the original complexion was a dark brown!
It's also interesting that the effort to make Ramses II or other Kemetic monarchs into a Asiatic/Semitic type sometimes bases it on the claims pronouncedly hooked 'semitic' noses.
Look at the differences in nasal profile in the iconography.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: One could make the same observation about the Levantine who also has a darker brown blotch remaining on his upper jaw and nose.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Actually, in that smiting scene you speak of, some of the paint on Ramses had worn off giving it the 'reddish' look you speak of. A closer inspection shows that the original complexion was a dark brown!
It's also interesting that the effort to make Ramses II or other Kemetic monarchs into a Asiatic/Semitic type sometimes bases it on the claims pronouncedly hooked 'semitic' noses.
Look at the differences in nasal profile in the iconography.
That is what you get when you only have on picture as your "evidence", which is over-analyzed to death as if no other images of Ramses II exist. On that note you got a whole temple to Ramses II with a bunch of images left at Medinet Habu to look at. This nonsense of taking one or two hand-picked images and then using that as absolute "proof" is ridiculous. It happens all the time in this whole debate about Egyptian features...
posted
Didn't Ramses II have red hair? If in fact he did, I doubt he had as dark of skin as those depictions of him shown. It seems that very few Egyptian artworks show a realistic portrayal of the individuals as they really were.
Posts: 197 | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Didn't Ramses II have red hair? If in fact he did, I doubt he had as dark of skin as those depictions of him shown. It seems that very few Egyptian artworks show a realistic portrayal of the individuals as they really were.
Didn't Malcolm X also have red hair? Hair color says very little if anything at all about skin color.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Celt: Didn't Ramses II have red hair? If in fact he did, I doubt he had as dark of skin as those depictions of him shown. It seems that very few Egyptian artworks show a realistic portrayal of the individuals as they really were.
quote: The common misconception that all hair turns red over archaeological timescales has found its way into archaeological folklore. Whilst certain environments such as those producing bog bodies are known to yield hair of a red-brown color, in part because of the breakdown of organic matter and presence of humic acids which impart a brown color to recovered remains, it has commonly been assumed that this happens to all archaeological hair. This concept has been perpetuated by popular nicknames such as "Ginger"--affectionately given to the Predynastic burial with red hair on display in the mummy rooms at the British Museum.
Potential change to hair color can be explained more scientifically by examining the chemistry of melanin which is responsible for hair color in life. All hair contains a mixture in varying concentration of both black-brown eumelanin and red-yellow phaeomelanin pigments, which are susceptible to differential chemical change under certain extreme burial conditions (for example wet reducing conditions, or dry oxidising conditions). Importantly, phaeomelanin is much more stable to environmental conditions than eumelanin, hence the reactions occurring in the burial environment favor the preservation of phaeomelanin, revealing and enhancing the red/ yellow color of hairs containing this pigment. Color changes occur slowly under dry oxidising conditions, such as in the burials in sand at Hierakonpolis. Whether the conditions within the wood and plaster coffin contributed to accelerated color change, or whether this individual naturally had more phaeomelanin pigmentation in his hair is hard to say without further analysis. Previous page
Gene responsible for red hair MC1R originates in Africa:
quote: In 1995 a landmark study demonstrated that over 80% of humans with red hair or fair skin have a dysfunctional variant of the Mc1r gene.[11]
This discovery provoked interest in determining why there is an unusual prevelance of red hair and pale skin in some northern European populations, specifically Scotland and Ireland. The Out-of-Africa model proposes that modern humans originated in Africa and migrated north to populate Europe and Asia. It is most likely that these migrants had an active Mc1r variant and, accordingly, darker hair and skin (as displayed by indigenous Africans today). Concordant with the migration north, the selective pressure maintaining dark skin decreased as radiation from the sun became less intense. Thus variations in Mc1r began to appear in the human population, resulting in the paler skin and red hair of some Europeans. Human skin color map, demonstrating the prevelence of pale skin in northern latitudes. Data for native populations collected by R. Biasutti prior to 1940 Human skin color map, demonstrating the prevelence of pale skin in northern latitudes. Data for native populations collected by R. Biasutti prior to 1940
Studies find no evidence for positive selection driving these changes. Instead, the absence of high levels of solar radiation in northern Europe relaxed the selective pressure on active Mc1r, allowing the gene to mutate into dysfunctional variants without reproductive penalty, then propagate by genetic drift.[12]
The reason for the unusually high numbers of dysfunctional Mc1r variants in certain human populations is not yet known, though sexual selection for red hair has been proposed.[13]
The key here is that red hair originates in Africa among black Africans, meaning pale Europeans are not the fathers and mothers of the red hair trait. So when an ancient mummy is found with red hair in Africa, that does not indicate pale skin or Eurasian ancestry.
Research of this nature on mummies is biased because it does not show how prevalent red hairs were in other African populations. Also when they say red hair they don't necessarily mean the bright orange or reddish orange hair seen on many red heads in Europe. It could also mean dark reddish brown hair or light reddish brown hair, which is not that much different than the hair of many black people to this day. It does not mean that Ramses II had bright red or flaming orange hair. Therefore, it is misleading to say the least. I doubt very seriously if such research was able to determine precisely how red his hair was from 300 years ago, other than it had SOME red in it. Just because his hair had SOME red in it does not mean he was a bright orange haired white person. That is patently ridiculous. ALL human hair and skin color is a result of genes for red, brown,black and yellow traits. Therefore, there is bound to be SOME amount of red in almost any population on earth and most definitely in Africa where the trait originated. Therefore, finding SOME evidence of red in the proteins of Ramses II's or any other ancient mummy, IS NOT SAYING MUCH.
MC1R distribution and variation in Africa:
quote: DNA polymorphism and selection at the melanocortin-1 receptor gene in normally pigmented southern African individuals. John PR, Makova K, Li WH, Jenkins T, Ramsay M.
Department of Human Genetics, School of Pathology, National Health Laboratory Service and University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg 2000, South Africa.
Skin pigmentation is a polygenic multifactorial trait determined by the cumulative effects of multiple genetic variants and environmental factors. Melanocortin-1 receptor (MC1R) is one of the genes involved in pigmentation, and has been implicated in the red hair and pale skin phenotype in human Caucasoid individuals. The present study was undertaken to identify variation at the MC1R locus in normally pigmented individuals in two African populations, sub-Saharan Negroids (22 unrelated individuals) and the San (17 unrelated individuals). The study showed considerable MC1R gene sequence variation with the detection of eight synonymous and three nonsynonymous mutations. This is the first report of nonsynonymous mutations in African individuals in the MC1R gene: L99I was found in a single San individual, S47I was detected in a single Negroid individual, and F196L was detected in five Negroid individuals (5/44; 0.11). The functional significance of these mutations is not known. Three of the eight synonymous mutations found, L106L (CTG --> CTA), F300F (TTC --> TTT), and T314T (ACA --> ACG) (also known as A942G), have been reported previously. T314T was the only variant that showed a significant difference between the Negroid and San populations (0.477 and 0.059, respectively; P = 1.6 x 10(-5)). Its low frequency in the San may be the result of random genetic drift in a population of small size, or selection. Several tests of neutrality of the MC1R coding region in these and other African populations were significant, suggesting that purifying selection (functional constraint) had occurred at this gene locus in Africans. This demonstrates that although some nonsynonymous MC1R mutations are tolerated in individuals with dark skin, this gene has likely played a significant role in the maintenance of dark pigmentation in Africans and normal pigment variation in non-African populations.
Human hair and skin color a result of variation in MC1R (red/brown/black combinations):
quote: High polymorphism at the human melanocortin 1 receptor locus. Rana BK, Hewett-Emmett D, Jin L, Chang BH, Sambuughin N, Lin M, Watkins S, Bamshad M, Jorde LB, Ramsay M, Jenkins T, Li WH.
Human Genetics Center, School of Public Health and Graduate School of Biomedical Sciences, University of Texas, Houston, Texas 77030, USA.
Variation in human skin/hair pigmentation is due to varied amounts of eumelanin (brown/black melanins) and phaeomelanin (red/yellow melanins) produced by the melanocytes. The melanocortin 1 receptor (MC1R) is a regulator of eu- and phaeomelanin production in the melanocytes, and MC1R mutations causing coat color changes are known in many mammals. We have sequenced the MC1R gene in 121 individuals sampled from world populations with an emphasis on Asian populations. We found variation at five nonsynonymous sites (resulting in the variants Arg67Gln, Asp84Glu, Val92Met, Arg151Cys, and Arg163Gln), but at only one synonymous site (A942G). Interestingly, the human consensus protein sequence is observed in all 25 African individuals studied, but at lower frequencies in the other populations examined, especially in East and Southeast Asians. The Arg163Gln variant is absent in the Africans studied, almost absent in Europeans, and at a low frequency (7%) in Indians, but is at an exceptionally high frequency (70%) in East and Southeast Asians. The MC1R gene in common and pygmy chimpanzees, gorilla, orangutan, and baboon was sequenced to study the evolution of MC1R. The ancestral human MC1R sequence is identical to the human consensus protein sequence, while MC1R varies considerably among higher primates. A comparison of the rates of substitution in genes in the melanocortin receptor family indicates that MC1R has evolved the fastest. In addition, the nucleotide diversity at the MC1R locus is shown to be several times higher than the average nucleotide diversity in human populations, possibly due to diversifying selection.
MC1R is a very polymorphic sequence and has a high chemical correspondence with hair and skin color:
quote: Quantitative measures of the effect of the melanocortin 1 receptor on human pigmentary status. Naysmith L, Waterston K, Ha T, Flanagan N, Bisset Y, Ray A, Wakamatsu K, Ito S, Rees JL.
Systems Group, Dermatology, University of Edinburgh, Edinburgh, UK.
Variation in human hair and skin color is the most striking visible aspect of human genetic variation. The only gene known to exert an effect on pigmentary within the normal population is the melanocortin-1 receptor (MC1R). Previous studies have used a Mendelian framework to relate MC1R genotype to phenotype, by measuring pigmentary status using categorical scales. Such approaches are inadequate. We report results using direct measures of hair color using objective colorimetric dimensions and HPLC determined hair melanins. We have linked MC1R genotype with chemical measures of melanin quantity and type and objective phenotype measures of color. MC1R genotype was predictive of hair melanin expressed as the ratio of the loge of eumelanin to pheomelanin ratio, with a dosage effect evident: MC1R homozygote mean, 1.46; heterozygote, 4.44; and wild type, 5.81 p<0.001. Approximately 67% of the variance in this model could be accounted for in terms of MC1R genotype. There was also a relation between MC1R status and hair color, most prominently for the b* axis p<0.001, but also for the a* and L* scales L*a*b*, CIE. We show for one of the most polymorphic human traits that it is possible to demonstrate meaningful relations between various physical characteristics: DNA sequence diversity, hair-wavelength-specific reflectance patterns, and chemical melanin assays.
Hair changes in archaeology: [QUOTE] The common misconception that all hair turns red over archaeological timescales has found its way into archaeological folklore. Whilst certain environments such as those producing bog bodies are known to yield hair of a red-brown color, in part because of the breakdown of organic matter and presence of humic acids which impart a brown color to recovered remains, it has commonly been assumed that this happens to all archaeological hair. This concept has been perpetuated by popular nicknames such as "Ginger"--affectionately given to the Predynastic burial with red hair on display in the mummy rooms at the British Museum.
Potential change to hair color can be explained more scientifically by examining the chemistry of melanin which is responsible for hair color in life. All hair contains a mixture in varying concentration of both black-brown eumelanin and red-yellow phaeomelanin pigments, which are susceptible to differential chemical change under certain extreme burial conditions (for example wet reducing conditions, or dry oxidising conditions). Importantly, phaeomelanin is much more stable to environmental conditions than eumelanin, hence the reactions occurring in the burial environment favor the preservation of phaeomelanin, revealing and enhancing the red/ yellow color of hairs containing this pigment. Color changes occur slowly under dry oxidising conditions, such as in the burials in sand at Hierakonpolis. Whether the conditions within the wood and plaster coffin contributed to accelerated color change, or whether this individual naturally had more phaeomelanin pigmentation in his hair is hard to say without further analysis.
I feel no need to respond to the other articles you've posted above. I think this one is enough. Have you read what it says? According to the above, either all mummies buried in similar conditions should have red/blondish hair, or only those that had naturally more phaeomelanin should have red or blondish hair. Would having naturally more phaeomelanin be an indicator that the individual had naturally red/blonde hair? The article seems speculative and unsure about what the case may really be. Or does it?
Posts: 197 | Registered: Jul 2007
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Actually, the article was posted to show that you cannot always look at the color of the skin and hair on a corpse and determine what it looked like in life. Period. It is that simple. Sometimes it is due to chemical affects of the environment on the body after interment, sometimes it is due to treatments done on the body before interment and of course sometimes it is a true reflection of real life. This is not a reflection of confusion, it is a reflection of fact. Some want to think of the Egyptians being a bunch of blonde haired nordic looking white Africans because of the state of the mummies that seem to have blonde hair. They will believe that no matter what evidence is provided. That is not a statement of confusion it is a statement of fact.
Chemical analysis of hair shows that all hair has some proportion of the red color gene. Therefore, saying that there were traces at the root of red hair chemicals does not mean that the person necessarily was a flaming red haired pale skinned person, which is often put forward by many sites who cite that piece of research done on the mummy of Ramses. Once you understand that all hair can have such trace elements of those chemicals, you see why it is deceptive.
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