posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
You are mistaken, I have never claimed that Coe was an authority on Olmec writing. I quote him as an authority on Mayan writing.


I know the requirements of the Long Count because I studied Mayan hierogyphics under J. Kathryn Josserand and Nicholas A. Hopkins so I have a pretty good understanding of Maya Hieroglyphs and know that the Initial Series is important in finding the date of a monument. Here is a worksheet we had to do that points out aspects of the Initial Series.
Cursory examination of the Mojarra loopy sign and the ISIGs above show no affinity. As a result,I disagree with you, Coe and the others.

The ISIGs published above do not correspond to the symbols on the Mojarra stela. As a result I do not believe this “loopy sign” on the Mojarra stela was an ISIG.

If you believe this is an ISIG you should be able to answer the following questions.

Answer these questions by comparing the ISIGs above and the loopy sign on the Mojarra stela.:

1.What ISIG is the “loopy sign” on the Mojarra stela?

2. What ISIG is the Mojarra symbol related too?

3. What month is noted in the alledged Mojarra ISIG?

4. What is the patron god of alledged Mojarra introductory gylph.

I am still waiting.......

.

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quote:

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p. 64 [Summary] Our oldest evidence for the 260-day ritual calendar comes from Middle Formative Oaxaca. By Late Formative times, this 260-day Sacred Round had been combined with the 365-day Vague Year to produce the 52-year Calendar Round. Ironically, although the Long Count (which made use of all the above) is popularly associated with the Lowland Maya our earliest examples of Cycle 7 Long Count monuments come from the Zoque region (Chiapa de Corzo), Veracruz, and the Guatemalan Pacific piedmont. Not until the third century A.D. was the earliest known dated stela erected in the Maya lowlands. However, it was in that region that mesoamerican hieroglyphic writing was to achieve its maximum versatility, greatest complexity, and closest proximity to the spoken language.

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quote:

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p. 140 At the moment, our oldest stone monument with an exact-day date— known as a “Long Count” date—is Stela 2 of Chiapa de Corzo, Chiapas (Fig. 4.28). If we assume the same base date of 3114 B.C. used by the later Maya, Stela 2’s date (7.16.3.2.13) works out to December 9, 36 B.C.. Our next oldest Long count date is carved on Stela C at Tres Zapotes, Veracruz (Fig. 4.29). This date—7.1`6.6.16.18 [6 Etznab]—corresponds to September 3, 32 B.CD.. Stela C at Tres Zapotes gives us our first example of an Initial Series Introductory Glyph, the hieroglyph which signals that a long count date will follow (Stirling 1940). It is possible that Stela 2 at Chiapa de Corzo also had an Initial Series Introductory Glyph, but that damaged monument lacks the first part of the Long Count date

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Now, let us go sequentially to trace the development. The oldest exact-day date is Stela 2 Chiapa de Corzo(36 B.C.) while the first Initial Series Glyph is on Stela C Tres Zapotes (32 B.C.)

Stela 2 Chiapa de Corzo


Stela C Tres Zapotes


Marcus (1976; 52-53) say about Stela C:

quote:

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This apparent Long Count date consists of a vertical column of bars and dots placed horizontally. The numbers are not accompanied by period glyphs (e.g. days, months, years, an so forth). However, on the basis of position-value notation, Stirling reconstructed the Long Count date as (7).16.6.16.18. Having recovered only the lower half of Stela C in 1939, he inferred that if the top half should ever be found it would include the Initial Series Introducing Glyph and the number 7, for Baktun 7. His reconstruction has been confirmed by the recent discovery of the top half of Stela C, which indeed includes both the Introducing Glyph and a (Baktun) 7 (Cohn 17; Figure 7).
The variable element in the Initial Series Introducing Glyph resembles a jaguar head, which is the patron of the month Pop. .. The ISIG variable element is either a jaguar (patron of Pop) or the jaguar sun (patron of Uo).. .
The important characteristics of Stela C are:
1. Two columns of hieroglyphs.
2. An Initial Series Introducing Glyph.
3. A column of horizontally placed bars and dots.
4. a vertical coefficient and day glyph.
5.No month coefficient or month glyph
.

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Glyph A5 is the Introductory Series Glyph, i.e. a "trinary" " glyph and A6 "Jaguar" is the patron God

The Tuxtla Statuette also has a "trinary" Introductory Series Glyph A1 and A2 is month H and A10 8 Quake (Olmec)


Marcus (1976: 56) says:

quote:

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[the Tuxtla Statuette] In most respects, the Initial Series on the Tuxtla Statuette is quite similar to that recorded on Stela C at Tres Zapotes. The Introducing Glyph carries a trinary superfix, in this case three scrolls. The Introducing Glyph is followed by a column of horizontally placed bar and dot numerals.

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The two dates on La Mojarra also have a "trinary" Initial Series Glyph





The first Long Count date in the Maya area is Stela 29 Tikal, which has some other changes (i.e. evolution)



Marcus (1976:56) says:

quote:

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. [Stela 29 Tikal] July 6, 292 A.D.] For the first time, we have a bar and dot system of numeration set up vertically in order to serve as prefixes to the period glyphs. . . Thus for the first time, the bars and dots appear vertically and act as coefficients for specified period glyphs which are of the “head-variant” type.

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In the continuing evolution of the Maya system the next example is the Leyden Plaque


Marcus (1976: 61) says

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[Leyden Plaque 15 September 320 A.D.] The inscription on the Leyden plaque is similar in most respects to he earlier Stela 29 from Tikal: both include “head variant” period glyphs, which are prefixed by vertical bar-and-dot coefficients. However, there are some very important differences:
1. The Leyden Plaque gives us our oldest complete example of an Initial Series Introducing Glyph which includes the patron god for the month to be reached by the Long count date.
2. The Leyden Plaque includes (for the first time) some information about the lunar cycle.
3. The Leyden Plaque is the first text to include the month position and glyph.

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As you see, there are tons of prior examples that do not fit the canonical full-Blown example you try to foist on us. The simple answers that you are awaiting is that your questions are irrelvant because in the Mojarra we are dealing with a system that was still developing--{QB]but still was a Initial Series Long Count date[/QB].

Here is what a full blown date looks like including the Lunar corrections that had not been included at the time of the Leyden Plaque

Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

You have not answered my questions. You have not explained the components of the loopy sign that make it an ISIG. I will provide my interpretation of the Mojarra inscription below.

Mojarra 1 .



The first column of the Mojarra inscription reads as follows:

Row 1 (reading right to left).

• (1) i ta ki yo.(1a) i po Ki se. (1b) i ta ki yo.
  
  1/1b. Thou sacre raising (as) a vital spirit exist (now).
  
  1a. Thou the pure Protector / or You (art) Pure Kise.
  
  
  2)Ba da Yo
  
  The Great Da Yo.
  
  3. Se po Da Yo
  
  The victorious and Pure Da Yo
  
  4. Po tu
  
  Pure birth (was on)
  
  5. 8 5 3 3 5
  
  May 21 ,143 AD
  
  6. Se Gyo
  
  (Thou art) Se gyo
  
  i Snake
  
  (Se gyo is a surname given to an enfant whose people ascribe the intervention of a divinity.)
  
  "Thou sacre raising exist (now). Thou (art) the Pure Protector. The Great Da Yo. The victorious and pure Da Yo's pure birth ( was on ) May 21 143 AD. Thou (art) the Se Gyo. Thou Snake"
  
  Row 2
  
  Ni Po
  Kyu gyo
  Po tu
  Yo po bo po ta
  Monkey Tu
  Yo
  pa po
  Ta
  Se lu la
  Tu ku tu
  Yo Pe
  
  " (1)The pure house, (2)the big hemisphere sepulcre (burial Pyramid?) is a talisman. (3)Pure King Yo, is pure moral gradeur (and) a pure Propriety. (4) The Monkey King. (5) Yo (6) has much purity (7) the devotee is pure. (8) To realize and hold upright a good situation. (9) The king and Governor is obedient to the law. (10) (Oh) Yo Pe."
  
  
  Po tu
  Pe pe Ngbe
  Yo Pe
  Papa Po gbe Papa
  Yo Pe
  Pe po pe
  Da Yo da
  
  "The pure King (he has) Prodigious purity and virtue. The pure Yo, very much purity and virtue (is due) Yo Pe. Very much admiration for Da Yo at this moment the king."
  
  
  lu ma tu gyo
  Yo Pe
  
  [/b]
  
  "Hold upright spiritual tranquility for the ruler and cult leader: Yo Pe."

• Row 2
  
  Ni Po
  Kyu gyo
  Po tu
  Yo po bo po ta
  Monkey Tu
  Yo
  pa po
  Ta
  Se lu la
  Tu ku tu
  Yo Pe

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

You have failed to answer my direct question relating to the Mojarra “loopy sign”. Quet you declare that “The two dates on La Mojarra also have a "trinary" Initial Series Glyph “. Okay you claim this is a trinary glyph. If this is your interpretation of the glyph please explain what month it represents, and what god is part of this alleged ISIG



Below is my interpretation of the loopy sign above.

•  (1) i ta ki yo.(1a) i po Kilise. (1b) i ta ki yo.
  
  1/1b. Thou sacre raising (as) a vital spirit exist (now).
  
  1a. "Thou pure secret speech

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posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
Clyde:

You can fill the airwaves with your idosyncratic translations, and repeat the same irrelevant questions over and over again but, if anyone else is reading this thread, it is clear that, on the issue of the Initial Series Long count dates on the Mojarra, it is game set and match.

I'll return to Wiener and the 13 zodiac year later in a new thread as well as the whole question of exactly what Vai script is being used.

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Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
^ Not taking sides, but this is the best debate form I've seen from Dr. Winters.

The questions are fair and were not answered.

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I am very surprised at this reaction. Winters' questions presupposed that an ISIG at 146 AD would be the same as the fully developed ISIG of the Classical Maya period 250-900 AD.

1) The Initial Series Long Count date on the Mojarra Stela, which Winters finally acknowledged IS a date and not dots and bars that he can read as Mande with Vai script, is a Maya date but an epi-Olmec date. Therefore there is no reason to expect that it should have identical glyphs to a Maya inscription several hundred years younger.

2) I showed, with quotes from authorities and images of the relevant dates, that the Initial Series Long Count evolved and increased in completeness over the years therefore there is no reason to expect that a system in the process of development should have all the details of the final product at earlier stages.
For instance a date in the Classic Maya period, which would have all the details that Winters' asks for such as this: Quirigua Stela F January 22, 771A.D. in the Classic Period


There are significant differences between this and even Maya earlier stelae such as Tikal 29 (292 AD) and the Leyden Plaque 320AD)

1) This date has the date numbers in two columns A2 to A4
while both the Leyden and Tikal have the date number in a single column A3 to B7 in Leyden and A3 to A7 in Tikal.

2) Quirigua has an extensive Lunar correction A5 to A9. Leyden has the first instance of lunar info A9 and Tikal has none.

3) Quirigua has the month and its patron god in the ISIG as Winters describes but the Leyden Plaque is the first time an ISIG has a patron god. Tikal 29 and the previous epi-Olmec Long Count dates did not have a patron god in the ISIG.On this basis,, Winters' could equally claim that Tikal Stela 29 is not a valid Maya inscription.

4) Tikal stela 29 is the first time that the number coefficients of the time units are placed vertically- as they are in the full Quirigua date-- but before then, in epi-Olmec dates, the coeficients of the date units were in a column horizontally (as in the Mojarra, Tuxtla, Stela C in tres Zapotes, etc.
For comparison see

Tikal Stela 29 (292 AD)


Leyden Plaque (320 AD)


The bottom line, is that Winter's demands answers to questions that are inappropriate and irrelevant because ISIG's in the beginning of the evolution of the complete Long Count (36 BC to 292AD) were different from those used in the Classic Maya format of 771 AD. Since you like genetics, the equivalent claim would be that Afarensis is not a hominid because it is not as tall and does not have all the facial characteristics of Homo sapiens. Scripts , like language. evolve and change over time. (Vai and Mande seem to be the sole exceptions).

The second qustion: Are the 3 loops in the Mojarra Stela dates ISGS?

We see that there is a common trinary aspect to ISIGs even at the top of the Quirigua stela. And the question then becomes who do yuo believe-- Winter's opinion, that is his alone or the published statements of a number of the major Mesoamerican epigraphers and scholars. (see my post above for cites)

Marcus says:

quote:

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Marcus, J. 1992. Mesoamerican Writing Systems. Princeton: Princeton University Press says:
p. 140 At the moment, our oldest stone monument with an exact-day date— known as a “Long Count” date—is Stela 2 of Chiapa de Corzo, Chiapas (Fig. 4.28). If we assume the same base date of 3114 B.C. used by the later Maya, Stela 2’s date (7.16.3.2.13) works out to December 9, 36 B.C.. Our next oldest Long count date is carved on Stela C at Tres Zapotes, Veracruz (Fig. 4.29). This date—7.1`6.6.16.18 [6 Etznab]—corresponds to September 3, 32 B.CD.. Stela C at Tres Zapotes gives us our first example of an Initial Series Introductory Glyph, the hieroglyph which signals that a long count date will follow (Stirling 1940). It is possible that Stela 2 at Chiapa de Corzo also had an Initial Series Introductory Glyph, but that damaged monument lacks the first part of the Long Count date

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Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

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I am very surprised at this reaction.

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Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

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I am very surprised at this reaction. Winters' questions presupposed that an ISIG at 146 AD would be the same as the fully developed ISIG of the Classical Maya period 250-900 AD.

1) The Initial Series Long Count date on the Mojarra Stela, which Winters finally acknowledged IS a date and not dots and bars that he can read as Mande with Vai script, is a Maya date but an epi-Olmec date. Therefore there is no reason to expect that it should have identical glyphs to a Maya inscription several hundred years younger.

2) I showed, with quotes from authorities and images of the relevant dates, that the Initial Series Long Count evolved and increased in completeness over the years therefore there is no reason to expect that a system in the process of development should have all the details of the final product at earlier stages.For instance a date in the Classic Maya period, which would have all the details that Winters' asks for such as this: Quirigua Stela F January 22, 771A.D. in the Classic Period

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posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:

quote:

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I am very surprised at this reaction.

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Why? Do you feel that you have answered the above questions, or do you feel the questions are unfair, irrelevant, etc.?

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quote:

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1.What ISIG is the “loopy sign” on the Mojarra stela?

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quote:

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2. What ISIG is the Mojarra symbol related too?

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Similar glyphs are seen in:

Two epi-Olmec

The Tuxtla statuette (162 A.D.) — the 3 “question mark” looking scrolls at A1



Stela C Tres Zapotes (32 B.C.)— the trinary symbol 2 arches with a central vertical bar above the Jaguar head



These are early Maya

Stela 29 Tikal (292 A.D.) A1 trinary glyph 2 loops with a central vertical bar



Leyden Plaque (320 A.D.) a trinary glyph with two arches and a middle vertical bar on A1

quote:

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3. What month is noted in the alledged Mojarra ISIG?

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In A2a A2b— the 17th month (K’ayab) 3rd day


In M9a M9b- the 1st month (Pop) 15th day


In Tuxtla Statuette- the 14th month (Kankin) day 0

In Tikal Stela 29- the 3rd month (Zip) day 3

In Leyden Plaque- the 7th month (Yaxkin) day 0

quote:

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4. What is the patron god of alledged Mojarra introductory gylph.

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posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:

quote:

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I am very surprised at this reaction.

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Why? Do you feel that you have answered the above questions, or do you feel the questions are unfair, irrelevant, etc.?

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If you had read my long post on the development of the Long Count closely, I would have thought that the answer was clear. I am also curious that you feel that the published (and reviewed) interpretation of these glyphs by a number of acknowledged experts and scholars ara insignificant compared to Winters's opinion.

However:

quote:

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1.What ISIG is the “loopy sign” on the Mojarra stela?

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The sign is probably better described as a trinary symbol with two arches and a fancy bar in the middle. Found at both A1 (143 A.D.) and M8 (156 A.D.) It is the epi-Olmec version of the Initial Series Introductory glyph that indicates that the following numbers indicate a Long Count date with a zero at August 11 3114 B.C.

quote:

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2. What ISIG is the Mojarra symbol related too?

---

Similar glyphs are seen in:

Two epi-Olmec

The Tuxtla statuette (162 A.D.) — the 3 “question mark” looking scrolls at A1



Stela C Tres Zapotes (32 B.C.)— the trinary symbol 2 arches with a central vertical bar above the Jaguar head



These are early Maya

Stela 29 Tikal (292 A.D.) A1 trinary glyph 2 loops with a central vertical bar



Leyden Plaque (320 A.D.) a trinary glyph with two arches and a middle vertical bar on A1

quote:

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3. What month is noted in the alledged Mojarra ISIG?

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In A2a A2b— the 17th month (K’ayab) 3rd day


In M9a M9b- the 1st month (Pop) 15th day


In Tuxtla Statuette- the 14th month (Kankin) day 0

In Tikal Stela 29- the 3rd month (Zip) day 3

In Leyden Plaque- the 7th month (Yaxkin) day 0

quote:

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4. What is the patron god of alledged Mojarra introductory gylph.

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As Marcus (1976, 2002) points out— The Leyden Plaque is the first instance of a patron god being inserted in the ISIG- therefore the question is not valid for the Mojarra Stela, the Tuxtla Statuette, Stela C Tres Zapotes as well as the early Maya, Tikal Stela 29

On the Leyden plate see the kin or “sun god’s head” (like a little cross with dots) in the middle of A1-B2 who is the patron of the month Yaxkin which is repeated in A9

Now I would like to pose a question for Winters.

Since you now have admitted that the Mojarra stela has 2 Initial Series Long count dates similar to the date on the Tuxtla Statuette, please document the Mande source, at let’s say 32 B.C.) for a calendar that MUST INCLUDE ALL OF THE FOLLOWING

1. an interlocking 260-day calendar of 13 numbers and 20 day names AND a 365-day calendar composed of 18 20-months and 1 5-day month.
2. A starting date for this interlocking calendar of August 11, 3114 B.C.
3. A vertical place notation of a modified base-20 number system
4. A true zero

I am waiting for an answer since you claim all the Olmec writing is Mande

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Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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The Tuxtla statuette (162 A.D.) — the 3 “question mark” looking scrolls at A1

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There is no ISIG on the Tuxtla statuette. These bars and dots represent lexical items.

There are two rows of inscriptions on the front of the Tuxtla statuette. Some people claim that the inscription on the right under the duck bill is a date because of the bars and dots in this inscription.

Controversy surrounds the Tuxtla statuette because the long count can be read as either as 162 AD or the 3rd century BC.

The person mentioned in this inscription is Govenor TuTu.

The glyphs on the right side front of the Tuxtla statuette is not a date. The introductory glyph is not an ISIG it says: Su Po Ku I nu, which can be translated “Offer pure cleansing libations in thou habitation”, or Su Su Su Po ku i “At this moment the dead one to be honored as a sacrifice. The pure Governor at thine habitation”.

Since there is no mention of a birth, I don’t read the glyphs 8 6 2 4 17 as a date, I read them as lexical items Se (3) i(1) or “You reached your final destination”. The next line li (dot) i(1 or bar) “Indeed thou…”; next pe (2 dots) gyu (4 dots) “to assume a source spiritual tranquility”. Thusly, li i pe gyu = “Indeed thou to astonish as a source of spiritual tranquility”.

The bottom signs read Po ka i se “Your pure family mansion (it is) realized”.





The inscription on the left is as follows:

"This is the home of thou spirit. It is here. This abode (it is) thrust (down) in the groud here. He (Tutu) was (indeed) an important personage (with) considerable and effective wonder working Powers".

Mande tradition helps us understand the duck-bill orientation of the Tuxtla statuette. The division of ancestors of the Manding people were divided into birds and hyenas, this may explain the appearence of the Olmec priests-chiefs as birds and jaguars.

Among the Bambara, who have become less Islamized than the Malinke, 'birds' are associated with the totality of spiritual realities, its emblem is a reed pipe which initiates use as musical instrument.

The duck bill probably represented Tutu in a duck mask. The mask is a theophany a visible manifestation of a god.

In Olmec-Mande, the term for duck is buru. This is interesting because buru means "Supreme chief, king, governor". Thus this depiction Tutu with a duck bill denoted his high status.

.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Quetzalcoatl

quote:

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The Tuxtla statuette (162 A.D.) — the 3 “question mark” looking scrolls at A1

---

There is no ISIG on the Tuxtla statuette. These bars and dots represent lexical items.

There are two rows of inscriptions on the front of the Tuxtla statuette. Some people claim that the inscription on the right under the duck bill is a date because of the bars and dots in this inscription.

Controversy surrounds the Tuxtla statuette because the long count can be read as either as 162 AD or the 3rd century BC.

The person mentioned in this inscription is Govenor TuTu.

The glyphs on the right side front of the Tuxtla statuette is not a date. The introductory glyph is not an ISIG it says: Su Po Ku I nu, which can be translated “Offer pure cleansing libations in thou habitation”, or Su Su Su Po ku i “At this moment the dead one to be honored as a sacrifice. The pure Governor at thine habitation”.

Since there is no mention of a birth, I don’t read the glyphs 8 6 2 4 17 as a date, I read them as lexical items Se (3) i(1) or “You reached your final destination”. The next line li (dot) i(1 or bar) “Indeed thou…”; next pe (2 dots) gyu (4 dots) “to assume a source spiritual tranquility”. Thusly, li i pe gyu = “Indeed thou to astonish as a source of spiritual tranquility”.

The bottom signs read Po ka i se “Your pure family mansion (it is) realized”.





The inscription on the left is as follows:

"This is the home of thou spirit. It is here. This abode (it is) thrust (down) in the groud here. He (Tutu) was (indeed) an important personage (with) considerable and effective wonder working Powers".

Mande tradition helps us understand the duck-bill orientation of the Tuxtla statuette. The division of ancestors of the Manding people were divided into birds and hyenas, this may explain the appearence of the Olmec priests-chiefs as birds and jaguars.

Among the Bambara, who have become less Islamized than the Malinke, 'birds' are associated with the totality of spiritual realities, its emblem is a reed pipe which initiates use as musical instrument.

The duck bill probably represented Tutu in a duck mask. The mask is a theophany a visible manifestation of a god.

In Olmec-Mande, the term for duck is buru. This is interesting because buru means "Supreme chief, king, governor". Thus this depiction Tutu with a duck bill denoted his high status.

.

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posted                         

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You are the only one that denies that this is a Long Count date, since you already admitted that the Mojarra Stela has two Long Count dates and they are the same format as the Tuxtla Statuette, why not admit this too?

Why are you avoiding this?

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posted                         

quote:

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1. an interlocking 260-day calendar of 13 numbers and 20 day names AND a 365-day calendar composed of 18 20-months and 1 5-day month.
2. A starting date for this interlocking calendar of August 11, 3114 B.C.
3. A vertical place notation of a modified base-20 number system
4. A true zero

I am waiting for an answer since you claim all the Olmec writing is Mande

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You have not answered my questions but I will answer yours to the best of my ability. Wiener has already shown that the Mande probably had a calendar with 13 months of 20 days as evident from the Calabash zodiacs.

Mande calendrics are the result of a combination climatic, social andastronomical factors. The moon, seasons and stars are used for reckoning time. The major star studied by the Mande is Sirius.

The Mande have several calendars, lunar, ritual and etc. The Mande system of notation is based on 20, 60 and 80 according to M. Griaule & G.Dieterlen.

Aspects of the Mande notation system is found among most West Africans. Griaule in Signes grapheques des Dogon, made it clear that the number 80 also represented 20 (80÷20=20; 20 x 4=80) and probably relates to the Mande people (see: R. Temple, The Sirius Mystery, (1976) p.80)

The base of the Mande calculation is 60 (60÷20=3; 3x20=60). The Malinke-Bambara term for 20 is muġa . The Malinke-Bambara term for 60 is debė ni- muġa or 40+20 (=60).

[IMG]http://www.geocities.com/olmec982000/Dogon1.GIF
[/IMG]


The Dogon claim they got their calendric system from the Mande. The importance of the number 20 is evident in the discussion of the trajectory of the star Digitaria around Serius, as illustrated in Figure iii, above. Note the small cluster of 20 dots (DL) in the figure that represent the star when it is furtherest from Sirius (R. Temple, Sirius Mystery (1976) p.40)

In the figure of Kanaga sign above Figure i, also illustrates the base notation 20 and 60. The head, tail and four feet each represent 20 ,i.e., 6 x 20=120; 120÷60=2. The calculation of Sigui also indicates the Mande notation system of 20 and 60 as illustrated in Figure ii.

Further confirmation of the base 20 notation in relation to the Sirius system is the kosa wala. For example on the koso wala we have 10 sequences made up of 30 rectangles (10x30 =300), which can be divided by 20: 300÷20=15; and 60: 300÷60=5. And as noted by Griaule & Dieterlen in addition to the above, 20 reactangles in the koso wala represent stars and constellations (R. Temple, The Sirius Mystery (1976) p.48).

The Mayan system like the Mande system is also based on 60 and 20. For example as you note in your question the basic part of the Haab year is the Tun 18 month 20 day calendar, plus the five day month of Wayeb.

The basic unit of the calendar is the Tun made up of 18 winal (months) of 20 k’in (days) or 360 days. Thus we have 18x20=360; 360÷60=6.

Next we have the K’tun,(20 Tun) which equals 7200 days, 7200÷60=120÷60=2; or 7200÷20=360÷20=18.

After K’tun comes Baktun (=400 Tun) 144,000 days, 144,000÷60=2400÷60=40; or 144,000÷20=7200÷20=360÷20=18.

Yes the Mande had the zero. The Mayan symbol for ‘zero’ means completion. M. Griaule in Signes d’Ecriture Bambara, says the Malinke-Bambara sign for zero is fu ‘nothing, the emptiness preceding creation’ (see Signes graphique soudanais, (eds) Marcel Griaule & Germaine Dieterlen


In conclusion, Mayan calendrics are probably based on the Mande notation system of 20 and 60. And the Malinke-Bambara people possessed the zero.

As pointed out on numerous occasions during this debate many Mayan groups record successfully time only using the 13 month 20 day calendar so there was no need for the Olmec to record a date and use a system like the Haab (Tun+ Wayeb ) to determine its actual time. A similar calendar of 13 months and 20 days was recorded on West African calabashes.

As illustrated above the Mande notation system of 20 and 60 is also the system of the Maya. The Mayan name for day k’in, may also be of Mande origin since it agrees with the Malinke-Bambara term kenè that means ‘day light, day’. The Mayan term for series of 360 days is tun, this corresponds to the Mande term dõ-na ‘an arrangement of dates/days’, the Mande term for calendar is dõ-gyãle-la. The Mayan speakers probably used tun, because they learned the Mande calendar in association with ritual days of the Mande speaking Olmecs.

Here are the answers to your questions. As you can see they support Wiener’s view that the Mayan system of notation was of Mande origin just as I claimed in the original post.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
The easy reply is that you evaded my questions completely. You provided a mishmosh of arguments about the numbers 20 and 60 but from the Dogon and in relation to their mythology concerning Sirius and a 60 year ceremony. This has nothing to do with the Mesoamerican calendar or a Mande calendar . Scattered babbling will not explain what you have to explain.
To remind you of the essential claim you make: about 100 BC the Mande were the source for the Initial Series Long Count calendar used in Mesoamerica. This means, as I asked you,
That ALL THESE FEATURES HAVE TO BE EXPLAINED BECAUSE THEY ARE ESSENTIAL COMPONENTS

1. an interlocking 260-day calendar of 13 numbers and 20 day names AND a 365-day calendar composed of 18 20-months and 1 5-day month.
2. A starting date for this interlocking calendar of August 11, 3114 B.C.
3. A vertical place notation of a modified base-20 number system
4. A true zero

Your post does not even come close to answering any of these points.

BTW you are wrong about the way the number 60 is said in Bambara. The system is decimal and 60 is 6X10 ta[ng] wooro
see
http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/~ts/language/number/mandinka.html

I am waiting for an answer since you claim all the Olmec writing is Mande

---

I have already answered your question. Both systems are based on 20 and 60. The site you list has nothing to do with the Mande terms for 20 and 60 that are discussed below.

You just can't handle the truth. You believe the Olmec were not Mande speakers and because this is the opinion of your Masters,you can't handle the reality that the Mayan system of Writing is of African origin as is much of the religion of the Maya as first made clear by Wiener.

I know for a fact you have access to the Delofosse Malinke-Bambara dictionary so you know the Mande terms I used here exist and have the meanings I provide. In addition, you are near a large library given your frequent access to up-to-date sources so you could easy verify my citations , your failure to falsify my citations betry your lack of scholarly acumen and goal to be a deciever.

Oh, you are a great deciever.

You may ignore the material if you which to your loss. Instead of going to the WWW you should consult a library. My answers are clearly referenced so there is no need to comment further on your spurious claims.


Mande calendrics are the result of a combination climatic, social andastronomical factors. The moon, seasons and stars are used for reckoning time. The major star studied by the Mande is Sirius.

The Mande have several calendars, lunar, ritual and etc. The Mande system of notation is based on 20, 60 and 80 according to M. Griaule & G.Dieterlen.

Aspects of the Mande notation system is found among most West Africans. Griaule in Signes grapheques des Dogon, made it clear that the number 80 also represented 20 (80÷20=20; 20 x 4=80) and probably relates to the Mande people (see: R. Temple, The Sirius Mystery, (1976) p.80)

The base of the Mande calculation is 60 (60÷20=3; 3x20=60). The Malinke-Bambara term for 20 is muġa . The Malinke-Bambara term for 60 is debė ni- muġa or 40+20 (=60).

[IMG]http://www.geocities.com/olmec982000/Dogon1.GIF
[/IMG]


The Dogon claim they got their calendric system from the Mande. The importance of the number 20 is evident in the discussion of the trajectory of the star Digitaria around Serius, as illustrated in Figure iii, above. Note the small cluster of 20 dots (DL) in the figure that represent the star when it is furtherest from Sirius (R. Temple, Sirius Mystery (1976) p.40)

In the figure of Kanaga sign above Figure i, also illustrates the base notation 20 and 60. The head, tail and four feet each represent 20 ,i.e., 6 x 20=120; 120÷60=2. The calculation of Sigui also indicates the Mande notation system of 20 and 60 as illustrated in Figure ii.

Further confirmation of the base 20 notation in relation to the Sirius system is the kosa wala. For example on the koso wala we have 10 sequences made up of 30 rectangles (10x30 =300), which can be divided by 20: 300÷20=15; and 60: 300÷60=5. And as noted by Griaule & Dieterlen in addition to the above, 20 reactangles in the koso wala represent stars and constellations (R. Temple, The Sirius Mystery (1976) p.48).

The Mayan system like the Mande system is also based on 60 and 20. For example as you note in your question the basic part of the Haab year is the Tun 18 month 20 day calendar, plus the five day month of Wayeb.

The basic unit of the calendar is the Tun made up of 18 winal (months) of 20 k’in (days) or 360 days. Thus we have 18x20=360; 360÷60=6.

Next we have the K’tun,(20 Tun) which equals 7200 days, 7200÷60=120÷60=2; or 7200÷20=360÷20=18.

After K’tun comes Baktun (=400 Tun) 144,000 days, 144,000÷60=2400÷60=40; or 144,000÷20=7200÷20=360÷20=18.

Yes the Mande had the zero. The Mayan symbol for ‘zero’ means completion. M. Griaule in Signes d’Ecriture Bambara, says the Malinke-Bambara sign for zero is fu ‘nothing, the emptiness preceding creation’ (see Signes graphique soudanais, (eds) Marcel Griaule & Germaine Dieterlen


In conclusion, Mayan calendrics are probably based on the Mande notation system of 20 and 60. And the Malinke-Bambara people possessed the zero.

As pointed out on numerous occasions during this debate many Mayan groups record successfully time only using the 13 month 20 day calendar so there was no need for the Olmec to record a date and use a system like the Haab (Tun+ Wayeb ) to determine its actual time. A similar calendar of 13 months and 20 days was recorded on West African calabashes.

As illustrated above the Mande notation system of 20 and 60 is also the system of the Maya. The Mayan name for day k’in, may also be of Mande origin since it agrees with the Malinke-Bambara term kenè that means ‘day light, day’. The Mayan term for series of 360 days is tun, this corresponds to the Mande term dõ-na ‘an arrangement of dates/days’, the Mande term for calendar is dõ-gyãle-la. The Mayan speakers probably used tun, because they learned the Mande calendar in association with ritual days of the Mande speaking Olmecs.

Here are the answers to your questions. As you can see they support Wiener’s view that the Mayan system of notation was of Mande origin just as I claimed in the original post.

.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The easy reply is that you evaded my questions completely. You provided a mishmosh of arguments about the numbers 20 and 60 but from the Dogon and in relation to their mythology concerning Sirius and a 60 year ceremony. This has nothing to do with the Mesoamerican calendar or a Mande calendar . Scattered babbling will not explain what you have to explain.,

---

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by kahanyah:
I'd say Clyde Winters. He was dumb enough to venture into native asian culture to try and hijack theirs, but was duly answered by a "Salasin" - who destroyed his claims over the olmecs.

---

Salasin has never destroyed any of my claims. He can not deny that the skeletons of the Olmec are of Africans, they used an African script, they used similar white pottery, they made jade tools like Blacks did in Africa. The Maya got writing from the Olmecs. The Mayan word for writing is of Mande origin. The abundance of evidence supports the Mande origin of the Olmec.

I destroyed Salasin and his theories here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oapn9nUOSFE


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0hVThjZ_f8&feature=related


.

---

Notice that Winters cites unilateral youtube videos rather than Egyptsearch threads where his claims were dealt with. for example
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000348;p=1

---

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
The easy reply is that you evaded my questions completely. You provided a mishmosh of arguments about the numbers 20 and 60 but from the [qb]Dogon and in relation to their mythology concerning Sirius and a 60 year ceremony. This has nothing to do with the Mesoamerican calendar or a Mande calendar . Scattered babbling will not explain what you have to explain.
To remind you of the essential claim you make: about 100 BC the Mande were the source for the Initial Series Long Count calendar used in Mesoamerica. This means, as I asked you,
That ALL THESE FEATURES HAVE TO BE EXPLAINED BECAUSE THEY ARE ESSENTIAL COMPONENTS

1. an interlocking 260-day calendar of 13 numbers and 20 day names AND a 365-day calendar composed of 18 20-months and 1 5-day month.
2. A starting date for this interlocking calendar of August 11, 3114 B.C.
3. A vertical place notation of a modified base-20 number system
4. A true zero

Your post does not even come close to answering any of these points.

BTW you are wrong about the way the number 60 is said in Bambara. The system is decimal and 60 is 6X10 ta[ng] wooro
see
http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/~ts/language/number/mandinka.html

I am waiting for an answer since you claim all the Olmec writing is Mande

---

I have already answered your question. Both systems are based on 20 and 60. The site you list has nothing to do with the Mande terms for 20 and 60 that are discussed below.

You just can't handle the truth. You believe the Olmec were not Mande speakers and because this is the opinion of your Masters,you can't handle the reality that the Mayan system of Writing is of African origin as is much of the religion of the Maya as first made clear by Wiener.

I know for a fact you have access to the Delofosse Malinke-Bambara dictionary so you know the Mande terms I used here exist and have the meanings I provide. In addition, you are near a large library given your frequent access to up-to-date sources so you could easy verify my citations , your failure to falsify my citations betry your lack of scholarly acumen and goal to be a deciever.

Oh, you are a great deciever.

You may ignore the material if you which to your loss. Instead of going to the WWW you should consult a library. My answers are clearly referenced so there is no need to comment further on your spurious claims.


Mande calendrics are the result of a combination climatic, social andastronomical factors. The moon, seasons and stars are used for reckoning time. The major star studied by the Mande is Sirius.

The Mande have several calendars, lunar, ritual and etc. The Mande system of notation is based on 20, 60 and 80 according to M. Griaule & G.Dieterlen.

Aspects of the Mande notation system is found among most West Africans. Griaule in Signes grapheques des Dogon, made it clear that the number 80 also represented 20 (80÷20=20; 20 x 4=80) and probably relates to the Mande people (see: R. Temple, The Sirius Mystery, (1976) p.80)

The base of the Mande calculation is 60 (60÷20=3; 3x20=60). The Malinke-Bambara term for 20 is muġa . The Malinke-Bambara term for 60 is debė ni- muġa or 40+20 (=60).

[IMG]http://www.geocities.com/olmec982000/Dogon1.GIF
[/IMG]


The Dogon claim they got their calendric system from the Mande. The importance of the number 20 is evident in the discussion of the trajectory of the star Digitaria around Serius, as illustrated in Figure iii, above. Note the small cluster of 20 dots (DL) in the figure that represent the star when it is furtherest from Sirius (R. Temple, Sirius Mystery (1976) p.40)

In the figure of Kanaga sign above Figure i, also illustrates the base notation 20 and 60. The head, tail and four feet each represent 20 ,i.e., 6 x 20=120; 120÷60=2. The calculation of Sigui also indicates the Mande notation system of 20 and 60 as illustrated in Figure ii.

Further confirmation of the base 20 notation in relation to the Sirius system is the kosa wala. For example on the koso wala we have 10 sequences made up of 30 rectangles (10x30 =300), which can be divided by 20: 300÷20=15; and 60: 300÷60=5. And as noted by Griaule & Dieterlen in addition to the above, 20 reactangles in the koso wala represent stars and constellations (R. Temple, The Sirius Mystery (1976) p.48).

The Mayan system like the Mande system is also based on 60 and 20. For example as you note in your question the basic part of the Haab year is the Tun 18 month 20 day calendar, plus the five day month of Wayeb.

The basic unit of the calendar is the Tun made up of 18 winal (months) of 20 k’in (days) or 360 days. Thus we have 18x20=360; 360÷60=6.

Next we have the K’tun,(20 Tun) which equals 7200 days, 7200÷60=120÷60=2; or 7200÷20=360÷20=18.

After K’tun comes Baktun (=400 Tun) 144,000 days, 144,000÷60=2400÷60=40; or 144,000÷20=7200÷20=360÷20=18.

Yes the Mande had the zero. The Mayan symbol for ‘zero’ means completion. M. Griaule in Signes d’Ecriture Bambara, says the Malinke-Bambara sign for zero is fu ‘nothing, the emptiness preceding creation’ (see Signes graphique soudanais, (eds) Marcel Griaule & Germaine Dieterlen


In conclusion, Mayan calendrics are probably based on the Mande notation system of 20 and 60. And the Malinke-Bambara people possessed the zero.

As pointed out on numerous occasions during this debate many Mayan groups record successfully time only using the 13 month 20 day calendar so there was no need for the Olmec to record a date and use a system like the Haab (Tun+ Wayeb ) to determine its actual time. A similar calendar of 13 months and 20 days was recorded on West African calabashes.

As illustrated above the Mande notation system of 20 and 60 is also the system of the Maya. The Mayan name for day k’in, may also be of Mande origin since it agrees with the Malinke-Bambara term kenè that means ‘day light, day’. The Mayan term for series of 360 days is tun, this corresponds to the Mande term dõ-na ‘an arrangement of dates/days’, the Mande term for calendar is dõ-gyãle-la. The Mayan speakers probably used tun, because they learned the Mande calendar in association with ritual days of the Mande speaking Olmecs.

Here are the answers to your questions. As you can see they support Wiener’s view that the Mayan system of notation was of Mande origin just as I claimed in the original post.

.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:



Prudence M. Rice in Maya Calendar Origin, makes it clear that the Maya sacre calendar of 13 month 20 days include the day names: ‘rain, Lord, world, snake ,deer and rabbit (see p.34). This is interesting because the same characters are found on the 13month calabash from West Africa.


Mande calendrics are the result of a combination climatic, social andastronomical factors. The moon, seasons and stars are used for reckoning time. The major star studied by the Mande is Sirius.


Mats play an important role in Mande calculations. The mat and mat motifs play an important role in Mayan society as well.




If you look at this calabash you will notice that in the center of the calabash we have a figure that resembles the Kanaga sign. It also very interesting that this Kanaga figure also includes a mat constituting the central design in the figure.


The characters on this calabash are explained by Mande cosmology. We see the following charaters on this almanac.

1. 2 lizards pointing out the four directions (North, South, East and West) plus the mat in the center of the four directions. These lizard figures probably represent the world.
2. Antelope (deer)
3. 7 circles or the Pleides
4. butterfly
5. bow/ double sword
6. grain/tree
7. 2 people representing humanity and the headrest denoting royalty in African societies
8. Crescent Moon & star (Venus?)
9. heart or ace of club figure
10. rabbit/hare
11. crocodile & snake
12. Crane
13. Calabash or bowl

These figures on the Calabash are ritual emblems associated with Malinke-Bambara.The Malinke-Bambara recognized the Sirius system in their cosmology.

In relation to the Lizard in facing upward we see the calabash or bowl on the right hand side. This calabash may represent the water bowl of Faro, the leading god of the Bambara. On the left hand side of this Lizard we see the seven circles, which are believed to have represented the seven stars of the Pleides. Among the Malinke-Bambara and other West African people the Pleides was a marker of the growing season.

The second Lizard is facing left. Above the right arm we see the seven stars of the Pleides. Below the right are we see the double sword which may represent Orion’s sword. Orion’s sword is that region of the sky below Orion’s belt that includes the Orion Nebula. It is interesting that in relation to the Pleides and Sword of Orion, we see the rabbit/hare. This is most interesting because Orion was said to be the hunter of the hare/rabbit.

The Antelope is believed to have taught human beings to farm. It relates to the Malinke-Bambara tradition that a half-man half-antelope introduced agriculture to mankind.

The Crane is also related to Malinke-Bambara tradition. Among the Bambara the Crested Crane is credited with the birth of speech.

The adult figure on the calabash and the head rest make it clear that this figure represented a Lord of dignitary. Finally the heart shaped or ace of clubs figure probably represents the flani da. The flani da symbolized the One Creator.

This interpretation of the calabash from the Guinea coast suggest that it records some event that involved agriculture. It also suggest that it corresponds to Malinke-Bambara traditions.

The Maya day signs: Lord ,World, snake, deer, and rabbit are found on the sacre calendar of the Maya. As noted above these same signs are found on the Guinea calabash calendar (or almanac ?). We have shown how the signs on the Guinea calabash are explained by Malinke-Bamabara ideology. The similarity in Mayan and Malinke-Bambara ideology found in the calendrics can best be explained by the fact that the Maya and other Amerind groups got this calendar from the Olmecs, who I have shown spoke Malinke-Bambara. These shared ideology for the figures on the sacre Mayan calendars and the Guinea coast calabash support the view of Leo Wiener in Africa and the Discovery of America that the calendars were related.

In summary this calabash confirms the theory of Leo Wiener, that the Mayan sacre calendar was related to calendars in West Africa.

.

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Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


I don't really disagree with Bork except in the fact that what he calls a buffalo, I identify as an antelope, and the figure, he calls an antelope I recognize as a hare.
Hare



I believe this is a hare because it accurately depicts the ears and form of a hare instead of an antelope.

Antelope


I do not believe the small human figure is a man. I believe it represents a child.

What he calls a fetish stool, looks to me to be a head rest. Also I do not see a bird in the tree/plant so I refer to the figure as a tree.

I believe that this calabash may be recording the coronation of a king, or the almanac is discussing someones initiation into a secret society. Thus the man and child may indicate the role initiation plays in the transformation of the child into a man.

African Buffalo



.

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Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged |