quote:Originally posted by Mmmkay: ^ Somebody's panties are in a bunch.
Apparently rasol's sharp words hit a little too close to home. He has that effect.
Perhaps that means you will go home?..........
Nah don't count on it.
^^^Sycophant my point exactly
Apparently I am a man and I have instinct to smell bitches in heat please don't go the same route as them LOL!!!!!!!
Posts: 343 | Registered: Feb 2008
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quote:Originally posted by akoben08: Then i am sorry for him as he is assuming i am not familiar with the issues. Maybe he should let me worry abut being "duped".
quote:But you know, maybe you could help me. Iv been trying to get past the insults to understand each side spoint of view. I don't know why it is so hard for some to accept that the Shang and Olmec had blacks among them? Winters is not the only one saying this.
Me neither.
quote:As for blacks in early Europe, didn't Van Sertima et al show where blacks were in England during time of Roman invasion of Britian and even in Scandenavia? Or is it a question of how many? What? I don't get it.
However, when someone starts claiming that these civilizations were African with no solid substantiation...
I mean, it's documented that Africans sailed.
But to say a civilization is African with no real proof is no better than saying the Egyptians were somehow caucasian or mediterranean (with no substantial evidence).
As for the Brittish, I believe I to have read of "brown skinned" people in the Isles, though, if existant, they were just European populations isolated from the selection of fair skin that took place in Europe.
I would have to read that myself, though.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [QUOTE]Originally posted by akoben08: [It is the time period you must keep in mind. As far as I can recall, the southern black population did not speak Indo European before the Aryan invasions.
quote:Blacks and whites spoke different languages. These Blacks did not speak Indo-Aryan languages.
Hmm. Like Kushana you mean, which you claim as the Indo-European origin of the Meriotic script.
lol.
But these kids you toy with are slow, and completely lost by what I just wrote.
I'll help them only a little:
"I did find that Meroitic was related to the Tokhrian/Kushana language, which is classed in the Indo-European family." - Clyde Winters.
^ I wonder how many of them will ever put two and two together, and discover how contrived and insencere is Winters ideology faux-history.
quote:You seem to be a deeply insecure individual. Why do you feel the need to boast of your alleged superior intelligence?
I didn't. You are reflecting your own insecurity. But let's move on...
quote: Let me explain: the southern blacks in India did not speak Indo European until after the invasion which would be after around 1200 bc or so - irrelevant to the case Winters is making.
rotfl. You've completely missed my point, as I predicted you would.
You do not get, the Clyde Winters attributes Meroitic [Sudanese African writing] to Indo-"Aryan" speakers, do you?
You do not see the irony of this do you?
Right over your head. lol.
This is why I don't bother engaging ES new breed of puppy posters anymore.
It's simply a waste of time.
Do you know who does understand, the irony, the hypocrisy, and the sheer absurdity of Dr. Winters claims.....
Dr. Winters does, that's who, which is why he chooses to not engage this point, but rather allows puppies like you to mislead themselves...with his cynical assistence.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:I don't know why it is so hard for some to accept that the Shang and Olmec had blacks among them.
I don't respect a disingenuous debator.
The claim is not that Olmec's and Shang had Blacks among them.
Modern Chinese and Mexicans have millions of Blacks 'among them'.
Winters Claims that Chinese and Olmec civilisations were founded by Mandingo from West Africa.
This is a very different claim. Quite frankly, you give the game away by not even being willing to honestly state it - much less defend it.
This is analagous to claiming the Ancient Egypt was a Nordic civilisation, and then asking why it is so hard for some to accept and Asiatic prescense in Ancient Egypt.
Formally it's and inverted burden of proof fallacy in which a wild claim is supposedly defended by a reasonable contention.
A contention which in fact, contests no point at issue, and does not prove the claim under contention.
Anyone who does this, effectively admits that the original claim is far fetched.
Thus, your argument is disingenuous.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:I don't know why it is so hard for some to accept that the Shang and Olmec had blacks among them.
I don't respect a disingenuous debator.
The claim is not that Olmec's and Shang had Blacks among them.
Modern Chinese and Mexicans have millions of Blacks 'among them'.
Winters Claims that Chinese and Olmec civilisations were founded by Mandingo from West Africa.
As I told the Bass, instead of giving your opinion provide counter evidence with citations disconfirming the evidence I have presented in support of these claims. If you don't have any...remain silent like a good little boy.
posted
Ah yes, there you go again. You definitely need to get over yourself quickly Rasol. Not everybody is out to get you or challenge your "vast intellect". You see, to be a "disingenuous debater" on the origins of the Olmec and Shang it would mean I have to be in a debate of some kind with you. I am unaware of this. I am just a "new breed' asking questions to get clarification on where everybody stands in here. Been a long time since I am involved in these types of arguments.
But what is truly entertaining though is that you think being new in here means being new to these issues. Sorry to disappoint you but there is nothing you have posted in here (expect Winters theory of Mandingo and Olmec, I give you that lol) that I didn't already know from our various scholars like Dr. Ben etc years ago. In fact following your posts: the insults, rush to judgements, bursting enthusiasm and false pride (so obvious a defence mechanism) you seem to fit the description of someone who has just discovered blackness. Seems it is you who is the newbie. lol
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote:As I told the Bass, instead of giving your opinion provide counter evidence with citations disconfirming the evidence I have presented in support of these claims. If you don't have any...remain silent like a good little boy.
The fact is, your claims are simply outrageous. And you know it. You just need an outlet (this forum) to express them having been relegated to the fringe.
^ In doing the above you (along with marc washington and others) have single-handedly destroyed the intellectual quality and credibility of this forum by fogging it up with psuedo-science and spam.
quote: instead of giving your opinion provide counter evidence with citations disconfirming the evidence I have presented in support of these claims.
Doing so would be like asserting pigs could grow wings and fly, saying you have "evidence" of such, and then asking for counter-evidence to disprove this asssertion.
Too bad others on this forum are not so keen and fall prey to your bait time and again. So you post here in part because you know their are some on this forum who will give you the attention you cry out for.
Posts: 426 | From: Cali-for-nia | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Mmmkay - You kind of just jumped in, without stating the object of your ire. So I'm assuming that it is this > rasol wrote: "Winters Claims that Chinese and Olmec civilizations were founded by Mandingo from West Africa". If that is the case, then I can treat both together.
Which is it that you disagree with?
That Chinese and Olmec civilisations were founded by Mandingo's?
That the people who founded those civilizations were from West Africa?
Or that the people who founded those civilizations were Black?
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Too bad others on this forum are not so keen and fall prey to your bait time and again.
Yeh, like Rasol's constant replies to Winter and his head to head "debate" with Washington in another thread. Makes me wonder why a man of his superior intellectual (lol) would spend so much time with someone making what he believes are absurd claims. Maybe it is indicative of his cantankerous nature, I mean, even a half-wit looking my posts would not read them as a "defense" of Winters theory but simply seeking clarity. Maybe Rasol is stressd out. lol
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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posted
I definitely don't, and will never contest anyone's use of 'black' again, after seeing how 'new-breed-puppy-trolls' have demonstrated how retarded contesting 'black' is.
rasol's back from banking on that show, I see.
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
Winters Claims that Chinese and Olmec civilisations were founded by Mandingo from West Africa.
This is a very different claim. Quite frankly, you give the game away by not even being willing to honestly state it - much less defend it.
^Needless to say. Or at least it should be.
Now for two hilarions quotes:
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
Do you know who does understand, the irony, the hypocrisy, and the sheer absurdity of Dr. Winters claims.....
Dr. Winters does, that's who, which is why he chooses to not engage this point, but rather allows puppies like you to mislead themselves...with his cynical assistence.
LMBAO
quote:akoben08:
Ah yes, there you go again. You definitely need to get over yourself quickly Rasol.
lol..
Reminds me of when people (usually other guys, in a competative context) tell me "you think you sweet[./!]" or when some girls who know nothing about my personality say "you think you/you're all that and a bag of chips"
to the latter, in my mind, struck I think "No. I don't, honey, ... but I see you sure do ".
^Which is why now phrases like "Ay dawg I think he fillin' himself, homey" mean someone's doing well for themself...
Chillax.
If you're gonna go ad-homina, at least do it the way the vets on here do it:
Clyde Winters posted:
^Directly demeaning/belittling his opponent - or at least it's intended to.
I honestly didn't read your page 1 posts, til just now. Now that I have, I don't know what in his posts you take issue with, as all I see in yours is: *self defend/ ad homina/ self defend*.
Is it this hilarious [the first bolded] bit?:
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
Hmm. Like Kushana you mean, which you claim as the Indo-European origin of the Meriotic script. [^^ ] lol.
But these kids you toy with are slow, and completely lost by what I just wrote.
I'll help them only a little:
"I did find that Meroitic was related to the Tokhrian/Kushana language, which is classed in the Indo-European family." - Clyde Winters.
^ I wonder how many of them will ever put two and two together,...
If you feel someone is making an ad-homina argument attacking you, The difference between the way you and they are doing it is this:
They are implying F. F = [X doesn't make sense and therefore anyone who believes X is rediculous]
Unless you disagree, and think X does make sense then there is really no need to take issue .. unless one feels what Clyde is saying isn't that rediculous, or one feels 'attacked'/alerted.
Alerted/insecure about 'F', because you (for whatever reason) think F applies to you.
*
If that be the case, then simply (and straight-forwardly .. if that's a word) come out and defend X, and if need be, do so while exposing the rediculous nature you see in your opponents flaws.
quote:Originally posted by akoben08:
Not everybody is out to ... challenge you ..... I am just a "new breed'
^lol.
Anywho, rasol:
I haven't paid attention to you guys's linguistic exchanges since that time you and Djehuti were arguing with Clyde while he spamned a long ass thread full of this long ass quote I didn't feel like reading. I was new at the time.
I'm just getting into the bio-anthropology.
This is why I never defend, nor do I attack Clyde Winter's linguistic position as do you, Dj, and Bass-Master.
The gist of it, I always thought, was Clyde generally trying to claim a Mande link to other peoples.
However, you wrote:
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by akoben08: It is the time period you must keep in mind. As far as I can recall, the southern black population did not speak Indo European before the Aryan invasions.
Blacks and whites spoke different languages. These Blacks did not speak Indo-Aryan languages.
Hmm. Like Kushana you mean, which you claim as the Indo-European origin of the Meriotic script.
lol.
But these kids you toy with are slow, and completely lost by what I just wrote.
I'll help them only a little:
"I did find that Meroitic was related to the Tokhrian/Kushana language, which is classed in the Indo-European family." - Clyde Winters.
^ I wonder how many of them will ever put two and two together, and discover how contrived and insencere is Winters ideology faux-history.
So this time .. it's ...
Clyde Winters claims an Indo-European lingual origin of Meroitic???
quote:As I told the Bass, instead of giving your opinion provide counter evidence with citations disconfirming the evidence I have presented in support of these claims. If you don't have any...remain silent like a good little boy.
The fact is, your claims are simply outrageous. And you know it. You just need an outlet (this forum) to express them having been relegated to the fringe.
^ In doing the above you (along with marc washington and others) have single-handedly destroyed the intellectual quality and credibility of this forum by fogging it up with psuedo-science and spam.
Too bad others on this forum are not so keen and fall prey to your bait time and again. So you post here in part because you know their are some on this forum who will give you the attention you cry out for.
Agree...but...
quote: Originally posted by Mmkay:
quote: Originally posted by Clyde Winters to rasol:
instead of giving your opinion provide counter evidence with citations disconfirming the evidence I have presented in support of these claims.
[What Clyde just said is akin to] asserting pigs could grow wings and fly, saying you have "evidence" of such, and then asking for counter-evidence to disprove this asssertion.
QUIT TROLLIN BOY!
And don't you mean "Cali-forn-I-A"?
Actually, if there is'evidence' and it is so rediculous, it is better to demonstrate how that's the case or keep quiet (at least a 'little', as in the case of rasol and others in Marc's Charlemagne thread) rather than troll.
If there's no evidence, than there is little need to do anything other than to toy with / and make fun of the person.
If there is sufficient but faulty evidence ... you know what to do (dismantle it).
Currently, there is no genetic evidence, and I'm not even sure of the linguistic evidences.
I think I remember seeing it having been demonstrated on this forum before that he uses words that are similar in appearance but not in meaning (cases as you will find in any two languages) .. the same mistake a few Eurocentrists have done.
But let me do my part in demonstrating:
Many of Islamic West African nations used the Arabic script.
Does this make them Arab, or even founded by Arabs?
posted
Some simple points that need to be re-emphasized:
Winters has not proved anything, he's simply made claims which he hasn't backed up and instead asks for evidence to refute his claims. What he fails to realize is that a claim must be proven true to be considered as true, it isn't true by default until someone comes along and disproves it, this is the same way Eurocentrists think, they say whites created everything and then put the burden of proof on others to refute it, while simultaneously holding their claims to be true until proven otherwise
Number two, Clyde was given a reply about about the Medne and Vai scripts regarding their origins, which the Bass posted and Winters simply ignored them and refused to answer to the question of how two scripts invented almost 2000 years later could be copied by someone 2000 years earlier.
Winters has provided no linguistic evidence that Mayan and Olmec language are substrates on Mande languages. In fact, no source could be found gives credibility to this claim. Winters simply resorts to citing himself as proof for his own claims.
Winters is now resorting to attacks out of frustration of not being able to actually back up his claims when challenged. This is why the Bass said this nonsense has to end.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote: Actually, if there is 'evidence' and it is so rediculous, it is better to demonstrate how that's the case or keep quiet (at least a 'little', as in the case of rasol and others in Marc's Charlemagne thread) rather than troll.
I agree it is better to ignore them or atleast try to explain why they are wrong, however that analogy was for the purpose of helping them to understood how nonsensical his assertion was.
Claims like that usually don't need to be "addressed" because making the claim that for example:
--> the mandingos created chinese civilisation
^ Violates causality and simple logical deduction, hence the occams razor references. Such claims don't need to be addressed at all.
quote: And don't you mean "Cali-forn-I-A"?
Thats not how governor "ahnold" says it. Posts: 426 | From: Cali-for-nia | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Bass you sound very stupid. You continue to request evidence when you have failed to falsify any of my claims.
You say I cited myself. You are correct. In a debate you cite your propositions and evidence, this is my work.
In a debate it is your job to disconfirm my evidence. Just pointing out that other people say something different does not win an argument. A debater is only checked when you disconfirm the Debaters propositions. You have not challenged my propositions you just posted websites which discuss Mayan languages and etc. None of these sites dirrectly challenge my propositions.
Here I restate my points:
1) The Mande script is older than the Olmec writing;
2) Mixe and Mayan languages have a Mande substratum;
3) That Rafinesque in relation to the Mayan inscriptions and Wiener in relation to the Tuxtla monument noted that the scripts were related to African writing a fact I confirmed after comparison;
4) The Mixe languages are related to Malinke-Bambara and the Mixe, like the Maya claim strangers introduced culture to this population;
5) You can read Olmec and Mayan inscriptions using Malinke-Bambara and the Vai script.[/quote]
You have not provided any research that contradicts any of the above propositions.
You have failed to list any paper disputing a relationship between Mayan and Mande languages.
You have not presented any article disputing my research.
I have claimed that Delafosse recorded a tradition that the Vai script was ancient. You say it is recent. Where is your research that it is not ancient?
Here we compare the signs and clearly they are not recent.
This is supported by the similarity between the Mande/Vai writing and other ancient scripts.
Here is one of the ancient Mande inscriptions
Where is your research showing that the Vai writing did not exist in ancient times when the characters relating to the Vai script are found throughout North and West Africa along the migration route the Mande took during their expansion from Nubia to West Africa.
Please present your evidence showing that these scripts are not cognate.
In the film I present specific lexical items. Leo Wiener, in Africa and the Discovery of America, also presents lexical items showing a connection between Mayan and Mande langauges. In your replay below you do not dispute any of the terms I claim that relate to the Mayan group.
How can you cliam that you have disputed my propositions concerning the relationship between the Mayan and Mande languages when you have not discussed the lexical items and confirmed that they do not relate to one another?
You sound very ignorant of debate. My articles and research is my propositions. What you have to do is specifically dispute any on my fidings by directly challenging my evidence. You have not challenged any of my propositions. All you have done is publish some websites.
All you have done is publish web pages. These web pages do not dispute any of my research. I am still waiting for you to disconfirm my research.
Failure to disconfirm my research does nothing to confirm your position. In a debate you have to present conter evidence.
I am waiting for your disconfirmation of my propositions--a list of web pages that do not discuss my work have no status in this debate.
Here is a site providing a pictorial history of the Vai writing.
posted
Jo has provided the oral traditions of the Mande regarding the antiquity of the Mande writing and I have discussed the textual and epigraphic evidence for the antiquity of the Mande writing here .
You make empty comments bare of evidence. You are the nonesence maker. It is you who are the deciever.
There is no way to give an origin date for these writing systems. But we can date the earliest dated monuments written in these scripts:
[IMG] [/IMG]
Vai 3000 BC Oued Mertoutek
Olmec 1200 BC La Venta
Please present the counter evidence to Jo's oral traditions and my epigraphic and textual evidence.
quote:Originally posted by Jo Nongowa: The Mende, Kono, Manding/Madinka, Vai, Kpelle, Loma, Gissi etc are all clans and tribes of the so called Mande nation that hail from ancient Kush.
Oral histories among these nations do report of a trans- oceanic(atlantic) trade with the lands known as the Caribbean and Americas today.
Moreover, it is also reported that Cristobal Colon aka Christopher Columbus who was a seaman along the west African coast for over 20 years was informed (along with the Portuguese) by West Africans of the sea currents that would take them back and forth to their so called New World.
In the above comparison charts winters cites no sources for such charts, We don't where he got them or how those charts came to their conclusions.
quote:You say I cited myself.
The problem is, there is no corroboration to your stated claims, you can cite yourself all you want, if their is no peer review, the vailidity of your stated claims are in question.
So again I restate
quote:The fact is, your claims are simply outrageous. And you know it. You just need an outlet (this forum) to express them having been relegated to the fringe.
quote:Originally posted by Mmmkay: Lets get a few things straight:
In the above comparison charts winters cites no sources for such charts, We don't where he got them or how those charts came to their conclusions.
quote:You say I cited myself.
The problem is, there is no corroboration to your stated claims, you can cite yourself all you want, if their is no peer review, the vailidity of your stated claims are in question.
So again I restate
quote:The fact is, your claims are simply outrageous. And you know it. You just need an outlet (this forum) to express them having been relegated to the fringe.
It is clear you seek peer review of any statement because you feel that unless the establishment okays a proposition it is untrue.
This is not debate. In a debate you state a premise(s) with evidence. The opposition presents counter primise(s) and evidence. Bass, Rasol have not even done this basic rule of argument. In the case of you guys, instead of argument you try to seek authority by any European as the standard of what is right and what is wrong.
This will not suffice. Do some research to counter my evidence by present specific evidence that dispute my evidence.
If you want to join the debate, fine. Why don't you present evidence that these symbols do not exist in the writing systems I have assigned them. I don't need an outlet I have already made many of these claims at International and National Conferences.
I have presented papers on Olmec writing at many National Conferences including: The decipherment of the Olmec writing. 74th Ann Meet Cent. States Anth Soc;Jaguar kings: Olmec Royalty and religious leaders in the first person 75th Ann Meet Cent States Anth Soc;The Olmec Religion,75th Ann Meet Cent States Anth Soc;Olmec symbolism in Mayan Writing 76th Ann Meet Cent States Anth Soc;Olmec voices: The syllabic signs. 98Ann Meet Am Anth Asoc.The programs of these meetings are on line.Check the programs of meetings to verify. You may not know this but papers are not presented at professional conferences unless they are peer reviewed.
As you can see I am just sharing knowledge to end the ignorance some people have about the Olmec writing and other topics.
posted
^ I don't have to *present* anything. The *burden of proof* is not upon me. No amount of irrelevant posturing such as the above will change the fact that:
a) Your claims obviously violate causality unless you prove that they don't, leading to the second point that
b) Thus the burden of proof, will full citations and peer reviewed corroborated evidence, is upon you.
^ Anything less is not addressing the issue and not worth me or any sane posters time.
Posts: 426 | From: Cali-for-nia | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Mmmkay: ^ I don't have to *present* anything. The *burden of proof* is not upon me. No amount of irrelevant posturing such as the above will change the fact that:
a) Your claims obviously violate causality unless you prove that they don't, leading to the second point that
b) Thus the burden of proof, will full citations and peer reviewed corroborated evidence, is upon you.
^ Anything less is not addressing the issue and not worth me or any sane posters time.
Fine don't present anything. If you can't counter my evidence remain silent.
Given your absence of knowledge on this theme I will ignore you and allow you to continue in your blissful ignorance.
posted
The Bass cannot believe that Clyde is relying upon faulty argumentation to supposedly advance science. A claim has to be proven to be true in order to be considered as true. It isn't true by default until someone proves otherwise, shame on you Clyde. For example, the Bass can claim green men live on the moon, but unless the Bass proves it to be true its just all talk. If anyone including the Bass took that claim to be true until proven otherwise they would be believing in a lie and or unproven speculation.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Winters, I havent seen any online sources of those conferences. BTW what does Van Sertima think of your claims re the Olmec?
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by akoben08: Winters, I havent seen any online sources of those conferences. BTW what does Van Sertima think of your claims re the Olmec?
Van Sertima attributes the influence on the Olmecs on Egypto/Nubians. The Mande/Bambara/Mandingo influences are due to the voyages in 1300 AD and the influences are on the Aztecs and Maya. Winters and Van Sertima are opposing claims.
Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Jo Nongowa: ^ True. Sometimes it gets tiresome trying to inform and educate on this forum.
On a personal note, my father was Mende. His paternal and maternal lineages were from warrior clans that hailed from Melle (present day Mali). The Mende (part of the Mane Invasions) fought their way into present day Sierra Leone during the 15th & 16th centuries. And they arrived as a literate people.
In my family home, we had books and texts written in Vai and Mende that had been compiled by the Portuguese who landed on the shores of present day Sierra Leone in 1462.
I've never understood why anyone would claim that the Vai or Mende script was invented in the 19th century and later????
HMMM. What I find peculiar is how certain people claim Literacy arrived in Mali with the Arabs..?
Is this true...?
I does'nt make sense in a way becuase if the population of Mali was so ignorant and illetarate why does the Ghana Empire which used Stone constuction and other complex methods that demand writing in some form.
Maybe the popultaion of Mali and Ghana had a different method of "Writing" until the Arab Script and Language and Methods UNIFIED and SIMPLIFED the original West African custom.
Also I have seen some artiles on West African sea faring...don't know if it is Afrocentrism though..
Posts: 8805 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by akoben08: Winters, I havent seen any online sources of those conferences. BTW what does Van Sertima think of your claims re the Olmec?
Van Sertima attributes the influence on the Olmecs on Egypto/Nubians. The Mande/Bambara/Mandingo influences are due to the voyages in 1300 AD and the influences are on the Aztecs and Maya. Winters and Van Sertima are opposing claims.
I can't belive certian people get upset when Europeans use their diffusionst claims on African nations like Egypt but turn around and claim the Meso American cultures were African in origin.
Posts: 8805 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: I can't belive certian people get upset when Europeans use their diffusionst claims on African nations like Egypt but turn around and claim the Meso American cultures were African in origin.
We "people" get upset because while there is evidence for African influence in early America there is none for White in Egypt.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: [qb] [QUOTE]I don't know why it is so hard for some to accept that the Shang and Olmec had blacks among them.
I don't respect a disingenuous debator.
The claim is not that Olmec's and Shang had Blacks among them.
Modern Chinese and Mexicans have millions of Blacks 'among them'.
Winters Claims that Chinese and Olmec civilisations were founded by Mandingo from West Africa.
quote:As I told the Bass, instead of giving your opinion provide counter evidence
^ Counter to what? Again, the disingenuous debator who won't even directly state his own claims.
I'll state one of your ridiculous claims for you then, and point out the evidence to the contrary.
You claim that Shang China was founded by Mandingo.
Yet West African Mandingo have West African genetic lineage E3a.
China has none.
Nor does China have any Benin Hbs, the West African gene the provides resistence to Malaria, and which is found in places like Arabia and Greece....even though South China has traditionally very high malaria rates which would subject Benin Hbs to positive selection.
This is evidence against West African founding Ancient China.
There is no evidence to the contrary in fact. Your ridiculous pseudo-linguist attempts to prove that words like Tai, [found in dozens of Asian languages] originate with recent West African migrants is simply laughable.
But your puppy fan club lacks any ability to descern what makes sense, from what does not.
These puppies and their intellectual immaturity is what you rely on, to get your stuff off.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: [qb] [QUOTE]I don't know why it is so hard for some to accept that the Shang and Olmec had blacks among them.
I don't respect a disingenuous debator.
The claim is not that Olmec's and Shang had Blacks among them.
Modern Chinese and Mexicans have millions of Blacks 'among them'.
Winters Claims that Chinese and Olmec civilisations were founded by Mandingo from West Africa.
quote:As I told the Bass, instead of giving your opinion provide counter evidence
^ Counter to what? Again, the disingenuous debator who won't even directly state his own claims.
I'll state one of your ridiculous claims for you then, and point out the evidence to the contrary.
You claim that Shang China was founded by Mandingo.
Yet West African Mandingo have West African genetic lineage E3a.
China has none.
Nor does China have any Benin Hbs, the West African gene the provides resistence to Malaria, and which is found in places like Arabia and Greece....even though South China has traditionally very high malaria rates which would subject Benin Hbs to positive selection.
This is evidence against West African founding Ancient China.
There is no evidence to the contrary in fact. Your ridiculous pseudo-linguist attempts to prove that words like Tai, [found in dozens of Asian languages] originate with recent West African migrants is simply laughable.
But your puppy fan club lacks any ability to descern what makes sense, from what does not.
These puppies and their intellectual immaturity is what you rely on, to get your stuff off.
^ See what I mean? Can't help himself. lol Is rasshole just jealous he doesn't have puppy fan club too?
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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posted
^ Even if I were 'jealous', you'd still be a puppy, according to your admission above, so what good does that do you? A non-puppy would directly address the issue of the lack of genetic evidence for Mandingo origin of Chinese. Did you do this? No. I rest my case.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Bass you sound very stupid. You continue to request evidence when you have failed to falsify any of my claims.
You say I cited myself. You are correct. In a debate you cite your propositions and evidence, this is my work.
^ Actually this is incorrect. You primarily *state* your propositions and *cite* evidence to support them.
When you cite your own *claims* as evidence that is a logical fallacy, known as "Argument ad Nauseum".
It literally means repeating your claim to the point of producing nausea in anyone listening, however it specifically references, repeating a claim instead of presenting evidence for the claim, and not knowing the difference between the two.
Again - I submit that your arguments are only effective to the intellectually unsophisticated puppies.
For any one else - you systematically commit basic travesties against logic and reason, that moot all your arguments.
ps - The puppies can continue their whining as puppies will.
After all, whine, beg or pee the carpet, what else can puppies do? - having *no bite*.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
^ And deep down, they know it, which is why it angers them.
In order to not be puppies, they would have show -understanding- and mastery of topic, and not simply fall for anyone who tells them any condescending lie that they want to hear.
Notice, no response still on Winters claims or the Indo-European origins of Meriotic script.
They don't want to there. Better to whine about 'meanie-rasol' who calls them puppies.
But as long as they whine instead of man-ing up and addressing the topic - puppies they remain.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
^ Even if I were 'jealous', you'd still be a puppy, according to your admission above, so what good does that do you? A non-puppy would directly address the issue of the lack of genetic evidence for Mandingo origin of Chinese. Did you do this? No. I rest my case.
Not my fault my sarcasm re the puppy claim went over your head. I don't need to address every absurd claim in here - guess that makes me a puppy in your warped thinking – not my problem. LOL
Notice, no response still on Winters claims or the Indo-European origins of Meriotic script.
Stop looking for a lynch mob, go attack him yourself. You seem capable of it. But in the process please don't be a little weasel and imply that I agree with him simply by not joining your little crusade.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Stop looking for a lynch mob, go attack him yourself. You seem capable of it. But in the process please don't be a little weasel and imply that I agree with him simply by not joining your little crusade.
^ Must be that time of the monthPosts: 426 | From: Cali-for-nia | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Stop looking for a lynch mob, go attack him yourself. You seem capable of it. But in the process please don't be a little weasel and imply that I agree with him simply by not joining your little crusade.
^ Must be that time of the month
Mmmkay, stop being a little cock tease and lets see all of you... Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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You claim that Shang China was founded by Mandingo.
Yet West African Mandingo have West African genetic lineage E3a.
China has none.
You are right. Chinese don't have any E3a genes because they killed off the Qiang (Blacks of China) through sacrifice rituals and genocide.
.
LOLOL!!!! Come on man you can do better than that. The funny thing is I am actually rooting for you.
And I think it is rather convenient that now *all of the sudden* you mention this telling revelation that anytime you ascribe Africans to starting a Civilization and there is no genetic evidence that it is because they were ALL killed off lol.
Posts: 343 | Registered: Feb 2008
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You claim that Shang China was founded by Mandingo.
Yet West African Mandingo have West African genetic lineage E3a.
China has none.
You are right. Chinese don't have any E3a genes because they killed off the Qiang (Blacks of China) through sacrifice rituals and genocide.
.
LOLOL!!!! Come on man you can do better than that. The funny thing is I am actually rooting for you.
And I think it is rather convenient that now *all of the sudden* you mention this telling revelation that anytime you ascribe Africans to starting a Civilization and there is no genetic evidence that it is because they were ALL killed off lol.
I don't understand why you can't believe an entire people can disappear as a result of genocide given the murder of Jews during WWII. Kwang-chih Chang, makes it clear that the Qiang were often sacrificed by the Anyang-Shang (1). Craniometrics make it clear that most of the sacrificial victims were Negro Qiang (2) The Yin (classical mongoloid) people sacrificed the Qiang usually a 100 at a time along with cattle according to the Shang Oracle Bone inscriptions (3).
There are thousands of Oracle bone inscriptions. At the rate of 100 sacrificial victims per sacrifice the murder of Blacks in China were probably in the 100,000's. Is it any wonder that E3a lineages is not found among native Chinese who are the descendents of the Han/Hua people of the Zhou dynasty.
It is interesting to me that the Qiang bodies were buried separately from the heads. Scientist have been able to identify the Negro Qiang based on skulls recovered from separate burial sites.
Due to continuous wars with the Yin and later Han/Hua peoples the Qiang retreated from the Anyang area, back to Kansu and Shansi. Later they migrated into Central Asia and India.
References:
1. Kwang-chih Chang, Shang Civilization, ISBN 0-300-02428-2
2. _________.The Archaeology of Ancient China, ISBN 0-300-03784-8
3. ___________.Studies in Shang Archaeology,ISBN 0-300-03578-0
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
I don't understand why you can't believe an entire people can disappear as a result of genocide given the murder of Jews during WWII
This is the sort of broad brush approach I have a problem with because the example you gave is not accurate, Jews did not "disappear" after WW2. And the numbers are inflated anyway. Re the Shang being a "black civilization", I remember reading about Zho describing blacks among the Shang, not that they were the entire population.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by akoben08: I don't understand why you can't believe an entire people can disappear as a result of genocide given the murder of Jews during WWII
This is the sort of broad brush approach I have a problem with because the example you gave is not accurate, Jews did not "disappear" after WW2. And the numbers are inflated anyway. Re the Shang being a "black civilization", I remember reading about Zho describing blacks among the Shang, not that they were the entire population.
Are you a NAZI or something. What evidence do you have that the number of Jews murdered during WWII are inflated?
In relation to the Blacks of China, instead of reading others people's work why don't you learn to read Chinese and check the documents for yourself.
posted
What evidence do you have that the number of Jews murdered during WWII are inflated?
Jews themselves.
instead of reading others people's work why don't you learn to read Chinese and check the documents for yourself.
By "other peoples" work you mean yours? But no I don't intend to learn Chinese, I can read English and your sources (like Chang from Yale) on the Shang are same as Van Sertima's. I just think you are overstating your case as you do the Olmec.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by akoben08: What evidence do you have that the number of Jews murdered during WWII are inflated?
Jews themselves.
instead of reading others people's work why don't you learn to read Chinese and check the documents for yourself.
By "other peoples" work you mean yours? But no I don't intend to learn Chinese, I can read English and your sources (like Chang from Yale) on the Shang are same as Van Sertima's. I just think you are overstating your case as you do the Olmec.
What are you talking about, Ivan never wrote about the Shang. In all of his books (Journals of African Civilizations) he usually writes the introduction to the papers he edited in each (Book/issue of the Journal), he never conducted original research into the Blacks of China.
No I don't mean mine. My research is original. Most of my work is based on primary Chinese sources. I attempt to post English language sources so people can follow up on what I post.
.
Here you make the statement "I just think you are overstating your case as you do the Olmec", without any counter evidence about Anyang-Shang sacrifice of the Qiang. This suggest to me that you base your ideas on conjecture instead of research and your purpose here is to spread disinformation.
You said you would never learn Chinese. That's the difference between you and me, to get at knowledge I learn at least a reading knowledge of the languages I need to know to get at that knowledge: for example Swahili, Sumerian, Elamite, Mayan (Yucatec), Tamil, Arabic and etc.
Much of this may be the result of the present system of learning. Back in the day, to attend seminar courses in African history you usually had to read French and/or Arabic and a African language to get at the primary sources. In addition, you rarely got a Master's degree in Anthropology or History without knowledge of at least one foriegn language. Today things are different you join a cohort and you may not even have to do original research.
It is only a matter of time that other posters will see through your mask of "blackness" akoben08. I am happy to see the real you now.
quote:Originally posted by akoben08: [qb] I don't understand why you can't believe an entire people can disappear as a result of genocide given the murder of Jews during WWII
This is the sort of broad brush approach I have a problem with because the example you gave is not accurate, Jews did not "disappear" after WW2. And the numbers are inflated anyway. Re the Shang being a "black civilization", I remember reading about Zho describing blacks among the Shang, not that they were the entire population.
Are you a NAZI or something.
^ No he's just an idiot. Dare I say you might even be intellectually one step ahead of him.
Posts: 426 | From: Cali-for-nia | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
The American Native Americans were basically eliminated by the end of the anglo invasion campaign. All natives of the five civilized tribes were uprooted and slaughtered. The lone tribe to remain unsettled were the Florida Seminoles. The highest estimate of the devastation caused by the english germ warfare campaign is, 95% of all native americans perished due to exposure to the disease.
What you see today are primarily the offspring of Anglos who interbred with the remaining few thousands of survivors. In 1876 it was shown that between the Seminole, Cherokee, Chickasaw, and Crow, only approx. 14,000 were of pure native american blood.
This is also why the US implemented "Indian" restitution. Most of the beneficaries were/are 50% or more anglo. In 1926, 1551 black Americans were examined and found 1/3 to have partial Native American ancestry.
The majority of black indians receive no restitution due to lack of documentation for obvious reason.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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Good for you Winters! You must be the envy of this forum since you can see what others can't. And Mmmkay agrees with you, maybe she will show you her pink panties soon! lol
But glad to see you dropped your Jewish WW2 analogy, even someone with a vivid imagination as yourself could see that cant hold water. As for Van Sertima, no I wasn't referring to his writings per say, just the book Africans in Early Asia and the person who wrote on the Chang used your sources but did not come to the same conclusions, Van Sertima in his introduction agreed with the findings that suggested blacks were among the Shang, they were not the base population.
And as far as the Olmec goes I will go with him over you anyday. Please don't start the bring-counter-evidence game with me. I can accept that the blacks among the Shang would have been killed off, I just don't accept your thesis they were the entire population.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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