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Basically - be more objective and less emotionally subjective.
I just want to know more about this statue. It clearly doesn't appear to be Nubian. Doesn't match the Nubian/Egyptian mix at all.
The headdress is very unique and I have never seen it before. Love to know which museum is carrying this relic.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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Djehuti - The nerve that you hit, is the same one everyone has; when confronted by a whining child talking nonsense. If you see an error above, please speak to that error specifically, instead of whining about whatever comes into that little empty head of yours.
Don't count on him doing that. Whining about alleged "bigotry" (only re Jews and Turks though, not black Arabs whom he dismisses as "psychopaths") on ES is much easier.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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^^Calm down Adolf Garvey, a.k.a. Marcus Hitler. I'd actually vouch for Djehuti in a split second, as far as his non-racialist approach [unlike you]. It is apparent that you're just a paranoid schizophrenic though. Your mind is abused, which is why your thought process is so azz backwards.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Sundiata - do you have anything on the statue?
There's so much delightful history here that we are missing in terms of mainstream America.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): I agree - and worse yet, the ad homina (cuz that's all they are) are coming after an arguement on whether something is truly authentic or not - a pointless arguement that is similar to arguing whether something is real or not.
All information is putative, so a better strategy would be in pointing out an inconsistancy in what a opposing party considers 'authentic' or 'fake' (especially if the incosistancy seems to function at the subject's conveniance) or other aspect of a opponant's position that shows them hypocritical.
Instead of:
A: "You are gullible enough as to believe those are real. You eristic imbecile."
B: "You're skeptical of way too many things! You loon!"
Actually the guy not only says that all the images of Greeks from the Classical period are fake but he even dismissed the giant statues of Hatshepsut outside of her memorial tomb.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: ^^Calm down Adolf Garvey, a.k.a. Marcus Hitler. I'd actually vouch for Djehuti in a split second, as far as his non-racialist approach [unlike you]. It is apparent that you're just a paranoid schizophrenic though. Your mind is abused, which is why your thought process is so azz backwards.
Look, just face up nuh? You are projecting: one half of you decry race and fascism while the other loves fascism just fine. Hahhaaah
Please confused negro you are in no position to talk about schizophrenia.... Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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Why does EVERY THREAD turn into a race bating senseless match of worthless nonesense!
I suppose even skeletal remains of Ancient Egyptians were faked.
Now I believe there were many fabrications but enlarge what you see is what you get.
I guess don't be so hard on him Djehuti - remember many Europeans believed these were Alienas from Mars!
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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Mike I've noticed something funny about this thing too.
I'll just go with they (females) were painted lighter.
**
On another note, what I notice that is suspicious is depictions which have been 'touched up' you can still see the darker paint on the edges, which indicates they didn't want to go to far. I'm aware that incases of the entire scene being lightened it may be erosion. When there are two main skin tones present and limbs cross eachother you can tell that the lighter ones have been faded because they partially got the darker and some places didn't. I'm not to sure but I think I've seen this with women.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Actually the guy not only says that all the images of Greeks from the Classical period are fake but he even dismissed the giant statues of Hatshepsut outside of her memorial tomb.
Yes this is definitely not how it's done; are ya sure ur not gettin this guy confused with Kemson Fullofit Unloading though?
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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As a source of information this forum is woefully empty of useful commentary!
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^^ The statue is part of the Louvre Museum's collection.
I have it from Th.Obenga's journal ANKH, that it is from the 2nd or 3rd millenium BC. No more precise information so far, sorry.
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^ Do you which dynasty the figure comes from?
quote:Originally posted by osirion: I will make this point!
As a source of information this forum is woefully empty of useful commentary!
That's because it has been taken over by trolls and no moderators to dispose of them.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^^^A natural, unmodified Black nose. The discoverer must have had a Black assistant looking over his shoulder.
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THE VANISHING EVIDENCE OF CLASSICAL AFRICAN CIVILIZATIONS:
“A 2001 Update”
Prof. Manu Ampim
The “Vanishing Evidence” series is a general summary of years of detailed observation and research. The full documentation supporting the conclusions expressed in this series of articles, including dozens of photographs, will be published in my forthcoming book, Modern Fraud: The Forged Ancient Egyptian Statues of Ra-Hotep and Nofret. I make no attempt here to “prove” such a complicated case as forgeries and the deliberate destruction of African artifacts in just a few short articles. Rather, this series is simply a preliminary report on my findings, which will be given extensive treatment in my book Modern Fraud. - MA
SCOPE OF “THE VANISHING EVIDENCE” SERIES
I originally wrote "The Vanishing Evidence of Classical African Civilizations" series in The Gaither Reporter in 1995-1996. The 3-part series documents the unintentional human-aided deterioration, as well as the deliberate and massive alteration, mutilation, and destruction of ancient Egyptian artifacts. The series covers three broad categories of this vanishing evidence: the Temple Evidence (part I), the Tomb Evidence (part II), and the Museum Evidence (part III). Before writing the series, I had meticulously studied artifacts and images at temples, tombs, pyramids, museums, and ancient residential sites throughout Egypt and Nubia (1990, 1994-1995). I also carefully examined ancient Egyptian and Nubian artifacts at nearly all of the major museums, institutes, and libraries in eleven European countries (1989-1990), and in dozens of cities throughout the U.S. and Canada (1991-1992). Overall, I painstakingly studied well over a million images and artifacts before writing the “The Vanishing Evidence” series.
My initial goal was simply to follow the path of research outlined by the eminent scholar, Dr. Chancellor Williams in The Destruction of Black Civilization (1974), and conduct primary research on ancient Black civilizations. As Williams pointed out, the accurate knowledge of African science, social organization, and advanced spiritual systems can only be known from an unbiased first-hand study of the history and artifacts. Though I began my extensive multi-country research tour with a mission of documenting the specific details of the advanced African civilizations of ancient Egypt and Nubia, a quite different and unexpected theme emerged in every region that I studied. I was struck by the specific patterns of deliberate alterations and defacement of the artifacts. These patterns became clear after I had visited the initial group of European museums. What I noticed most was that these acts were more than simply knocking off the noses of statues, they involve a much broader assault on ancient Black images.
The pair statue from the Tomb of Ikhetneb has lost most of its original paint on the faces and upper body of the two images, while much of the original paint on the legs and feet still survive. It seems evident that the darker paint has been deliberately erased on the face and upper body, thus giving the images the illusion of a white-skin appearance.
METHODS OF DESTRUCTION AND ALTERATION
My observations of the evidence are careful and are supported by photographic and video documentation. The extensive study of over a million artifacts and images gave me the keen power of observation to make analyses of the same materials that are also available to Egyptologists, although most of them have not studied the volume of the materials that I have examined. When the artifacts in question were examined meticulously, I found that the methods used to change or damage the images are varied, and they include: subtly altering the shape of the nose on statues by using some type of sanding device; adding on false noses; reshaping or completely destroying the face on temple and tomb walls; lightening the color of the face and body paint on statues and paintings; completely eliminating the paint on statues and paintings and thus making the images appear “white”; destroying the lower facial structure, particularly the chin and jaw area; putting in false bluish-gray inlaid eyes; plastering over temple images with White Portland Cement during ongoing “conservation” work; and creating outright forgeries! These acts of fraud and deliberate destruction is what I call the handiwork of modern conspirators. I was stunned by such an angry, vicious, and widespread attack against Black images by the enemies of Classical African Civilizations.
MODERN FORGERIES
One of the most absurd invention of the conspirators is the forged statues of Ra-Hotep and Nofret in the Cairo Museum. I present detailed and concrete evidence in my forthcoming book, Modern Fraud: The Forged Ancient Egyptian Statues of Ra-Hotep and Nofret (also see part 3 of this series on the Museum Evidence) that there is a list of specific artistic rules which are consistently applied to statue after statue throughout the pyramid age.[1] Although some writers would attempt to argue to the contrary, the fact that there was a body of specific artistic rules is demonstrated by the tens of thousands of statues and paintings that are presented in exactly the same way across various sites and cites throughout all of the major periods: the old, middle, and new kingdoms. Thus, these shocking forgeries make no artistic sense as they violate a long list of clearly defined rules, according to the ancient Egyptian rule system. Further, these fabricated European-looking statues do not make any cultural or historical sense, and it is consistent that they were found (or rather created by modern hands) during the 19th century, which has been called by some historians as “The Great Age of Fakes.” There is no doubt that the Ra-Hotep and Nofret forgeries stand completely outside of the ancient Egyptian artistic, cultural, and historical reality.
One of the great forgeries of the 19th century which has already been proven is that of the famous Queen Tetisheri. The statue of “Queen Tetisheri” was purchased by the British Museum in 1890, and this fake piece (with its facial features resembling most Europeans) was paraded around the world until it was first suspected as a fraud in 1984. This fake Tetisheri statue was showcased in the British Museum special exhibit on forgeries in 1990, but not before this forgery fooled experts and deceived the world for 100 years!
Forged statue of Queen Teti.Sheri
This limestone statuette inscribed with the name of Queen Tetisheri was long regarded as an important piece for the study of ancient Egyptian sculpture of the late 17th and early 18th dynasties. Now, however, this world renown statuette is regarded as a modern forgery.
WHO ARE THE CONSPIRATORS?
Who are the conspirators responsible for these acts of destruction, alteration and invention is a basic question that must be answered. Brian Fagan in his book on The Rape of Egypt (1975) documents a list of culprits: the Christian Copts who destroyed statues and monuments; the conquering Arabs who dismantled ancient buildings; and the 18th and 19th century European travelers, adventurers, and archeologists who were treasure hunters, plunderers, and looters. It was during the 19th century that a vast number of ancient Egyptian artifacts were excavated, but most of these discoveries were not adequately documented, with original on-site photographs and detailed field reports, which are now standard procedures within the archeological field. The systematic documentation of archaeological excavations did not develop until many years after volumes of artifacts were already taken from their original African sites and eventually placed in museums. Indeed, it is a sketchy record of how most of these artifacts were discovered and eventually made it onto museum floors.
This brings us to the identification of a large group of conspirators, who are the handlers of the excavated artifacts. This group includes excavators, antiquities dealers, museum curators and directors, and restorers and conservationists. Somewhere between the original excavation of the artifacts, to their transport, sale and acquisition, storage, cleaning, conservation, and finally their display on the museum floor there has been a diligent effort at altering, reworking, and “touching up” the facial features of countless statues. The conspirators who perpetrate these acts are behind the scenes actors who use a hit and run strategy of defacement and alteration of the art. They hide their hands from public view, but the results of their fraudulent and destructive activity is plain to see by anyone who carefully examines the evidence, as their pattern of fraud is highly distinctive. The lack of original documentation of many excavated artifacts has made it easy for these conspirators to commit their fraud. It is well known that many great artifacts of ancient Egypt were destroyed by the hands of plunderers during the widespread looting and trading in antiquities that went on for centuries, but what is not well known is the full story of the artifacts that did survive the wave of plunderers and make it into modern museum collections. I show in Modern Fraud that a large number of these surviving artifacts have undergone a racial makeover at the hands of modern conspirators. The results of their fraudulent work are the countless altered artifacts, reworked pieces, fake genealogies, and a host of forged statues.
The most recent revelation of the racist fabrications by this group of handlers, or more specifically Western museum directors, is reported in the current issue of Archaeology Magazine 54 (September-October 2001, p. 27). This report is associated with an article by Peter Lacovara et al. Archaeology reported that in the absence of scholarship the directors of the Niagara Falls Museum in Ontario, Canada “fabricated pedigrees” for many of their Egyptian mummies in the mid-nineteenth century. The most imaginative of these fake pedigrees, or false identities, was created for a bearded male mummy of the Roman period. The museum officials invented the following elaborate story for him which is a complete myth: “General Ossipumphnoferu the General in Chief of Thotmes III. ... He was a man of military skill, also a famous magician. He was 60 years old when he died. The scar on his forehead was caused by an enraged elephant while defending the king from his onslaughts. A palace was erected for the general near that of the king.” The museum officials took their scandalous activity even further, as for many years the “general” was displayed in the coffin of Iawttayesheret, a high-ranking woman from the 25th dynasty, which was 700 years before his time! It is incredible that the directors of a public museum would take an unidentified Roman period mummy, with a European facial appearance, put him in a woman’s coffin from 700 years earlier, and then create a bogus identity for him as a famous general during a period which was another 700 years earlier than the coffin he was buried in! Eventhough this mummy and other artifacts at the museum were not studied comprehensively by an Egyptologist, this is yet another case which documents that Western museum directors would go to any lengths in the 19th and early 20th century to falsify evidence.
Currently, there is no doubt that this list of conspirators includes local Egyptian government workers, who are carrying out many acts of destruction on a regular basis. These men either work for the Egyptian government on “conservation” projects, or for various European or North American archeological teams. On several occasions in the 1980s and 1990s, these unsupervised minimally-skilled government workers have been caught on video tape plastering over temple images and inscriptions! In fact, it is impossible to visit the Karnak Temple in Luxor and not see the recent defacement, and it is suspicious that with rare exception Egyptologists are silent about this matter.
WHAT ARE THEIR MOTIVES
After examining a vast body of artifacts, it seems evident that the ultimate motives of these groups of conspirators from the 19th century to the present is to eliminate the Black images from the ancient Egyptian historical record. This motivation is consistent with the racist views of many of the 19th and early 20th century Egyptologists who made many ridiculous assertions about Black people having little to no role in ancient Egypt, and that this was a civilization founded by white or Semitic people from the North. These baseless claims were widespread within the ranks of Egyptologists, and they helped inspire both H. M. Herget’s 1941 National Geographic Magazine paintings of pale-skinned Egyptians and the imaginary white images created by Hollywood, which together have deceived the public for the past half century.[3] This nonsense was exposed in the 1950s by the late Senegalese scholar, Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop. Diop assembled an awesome body of evidence to document the Black foundation of ancient Egypt and to expose the dishonest discourse of Western Egyptologists who were, as he put it, “performing intellectual acrobatics” to avoid dealing with concrete evidence to support their contentions about the Northern origins of ancient Egyptian civilization.[4] The mainstream Egyptologist Bruce Trigger in The American Discovery of Ancient Egypt (1995) discusses Diop’s impact and that it is because of his work that ancient Egypt is now seen by mainstream scholars as an African nation. Trigger also comments that “the white racist rhetoric that permeated most early twentieth-century writings about the development of Egyptian civilization has long been abandoned, [but] ideas formulated at the time have continued to influence thinking about the origins and nature of Egyptian civilization.”[5]
The “white racist rhetoric” that Trigger describes as permeating early twentieth century writings is simply a continuation of the same racist views held in the 19th century, and it is within this climate that the behind the scenes handlers had both the motives and the opportunity to deface images, alter facial features, and create racist forgeries.
RESPONSE TO THE SERIES
Since I first wrote "The Vanishing Evidence" series in 1995-1996, there has been much discussion, and many individuals across the country have indicated to me that they have also observed both the human-aided deterioration and the deliberate acts of destruction against Black images and artifacts. I have examined photographs of several of these individuals who have traveled to Egypt at various times, and for the most part only a very small percentage of their photographs are useful, because the individual photographers are not trained on how to systematically document the damage. However, some of the images are invaluable as they document the ongoing assault on Black images at major temple sites. It is now known by many that the physical evidence of classical African civilizations is vanishing before our eyes in essentially every geographical area. Many people are now aware that the human-aided decay, distortion of the artifacts, and deliberate defacement is widespread and this damage is most obviously visible at popular temple sites throughout Egypt.
Predictably, there have been a few white writers who have made ignorant comments about the “The Vanishing Evidence” series without even looking at the artifacts in question! They have not examined the first-hand evidence that I outline in the series, but they attack without anything other than empty emotion. They are in blind support of the fraudulent activity and racist scholarship of the 19th and 20th century. These people subscribe to Western colonial scholarship, eventhough this scholarship was born and bred in the brutal period of European expansion and colonialism. Egyptology as a discipline originated in this shameful 19th century era, and still maintains -- with little improvement -- its arrogant colonial discourse about African culture and civilizations. Any research that challenges this Western paradigm is automatically attacked by the apologists of this paradigm as “wrong” “misinformed,” or “pseudo-scientific.” These individuals are willing to do whatever it takes to ignore evidence, and in some cases lie and mislead the public.
PREVIOUS DOCUMENTATION
After I had begun organizing my information on the vanishing evidence theme that had emerged from my museum and field work, I later found out that a portion of my work of documenting the ongoing deterioration and destruction in Egypt had already been anticipated by the accomplished Egyptologist John Romer nearly 20 years earlier.[6] On his website, Romer republished a 1997 essay which summarizes his many years of work in the King’s Valley and is entitled “The Valley of Death,” wherein the author wrote: “The warning has been sounded. Loud and clear. Egypt’s famed Valley of the Kings...is in danger itself of the death it silently encloses. In less than 25 years—unless something is done urgently—the valley of priceless ancient tombs could become the valley of ochre mud. And responsible is the planet’s prime agent of destruction—man himself.” Lastly, there is also video footage shot by Ashra Kwesi in his video series on “The African Origin of Civilization” that I recall viewing in the 1980s. Kwesi’s short footage showed local Arab workers chopping and plastering over wall material at one of the Luxor area temples. Kwesi's footage was probably my first exposure to the documentation which shows the vanishing evidence of classical African civilizations.
An updated version of “The Vanishing Evidence” series, complete with numerous photographs, form an important section in my upcoming book on Modern Fraud, which concerns the Ra-Hotep and Nofret forgeries.
Prof. Manu Ampim October 2001
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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^ Again no one denies the existence of forgeries, but that is a far cry from claiming every Egyptian statue with a long nose is 'forged'.
quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18: ^ Well there you have it, it's from the late/Greco-Roman period
Which means native Egyptians still produced their own art. I am still confused about what the author of this thread meant by not 'stylized'. If you mean it looks a little more sloppy, perhaps it was because they made them while the Greek overlords looking at them over their shoulders. Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Again no one denies the existence of forgeries, but that is a far cry from claiming every Egyptian statue with a long nose is 'forged'.
quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18: ^ Well there you have it, it's from the late/Greco-Roman period
Which means native Egyptians still produced their own art. I am still confused about what the author of this thread meant by not 'stylized'. If you mean it looks a little more sloppy, perhaps it was because they made them while the Greek overlords looking at them over their shoulders.
Greek overlords! lol but cha gotta remember the Greeks conquerors pretty much acculturated Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^^^Please show examples of what you consider authentic Egyptian statues with wedge noses.
Again, just as your post here "Djehuti - The nerve that you hit, is the same one everyone has; when confronted by a whining child talking nonsense. If you see an error above, please speak to that error specifically, instead of whining about whatever comes into that little empty head of yours.", you will not get a reply to your last post. Catherine likes to make general statements, keeps him from getting too entangled in specifics.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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^^^You are probably right, so I shall continue without my annoying but sometimes useful foil.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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As Obelisk_18 correctly pointed out, not all of those having to do with the discovering and restoring of artifacts are racist. However the evidence clearly indicates that the great majority, most certainly are.
Queen Nefertiti has been dead for over 3,000 years, but her likeness has been raped by whites many times over.
What do you suppose the idiot that did this one had in mind. He couldn't do anything with those beautiful lips, so he went crazy with the nose. (I wonder if this is one of those "Authentic" examples Djehuti had in mind).
Here is how the Germans thought she should look.
Here is something closer to what she really looked like.
Akhenaten's other wife Kiya, wasn't spared either.
Then there is Senusret III, rather than mess around, they just broke his nose off.
But they really did themselves proud with Thutmosis III: Damn if that's not a White man.
Fascinating, yes, with the close up picture you can see the Greco/Roman stylizing. The use of metal is also quite more Greco Roman.
Thanks, that has to be the most useful reply I have gotten in quite some time.
greco roman stylizing?
Yes, the eyes are stylized in a way that is similar to other Greco-Roman Egypt styles of that period. Then the multiple types of metal is also interesting. Probably it was covered in Gold at one time.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: As Obelisk_18 correctly pointed out, not all of those having to do with the discovering and restoring of artifacts are racist. However the evidence clearly indicates that the great majority, most certainly are.
Queen Nefertiti has been dead for over 3,000 years, but her likeness has been raped by whites many times over.
What do you suppose the idiot that did this one had in mind. He couldn't do anything with those beautiful lips, so he went crazy with the nose. (I wonder if this is one of those "Authentic" examples Djehuti had in mind).
Here is how the Germans thought she should look.
Here is something closer to what she really looked like.
Akhenaten's other wife Kiya, wasn't spared either.
Then there is Senusret III, rather than mess around, they just broke his nose off.
But they really did themselves proud with Thutmosis III: Damn if that's not a White man.
Strange, they all look authenticately African.
I am not sure I see your point. Besides, you have mummies to deal with. How did your so called European fabricators make mummies that had Northern Hemisphere features?
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by osirion a.k.a bi-polar: How did your so called European fabricators make mummies that had Northern Hemisphere features?
No such mummies exist.
And please don't post any pictures of Ramses II; he's been discussed millions of times on here.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by osirion a.k.a bi-polar: How did your so called European fabricators make mummies that had Northern Hemisphere features?
No such mummies exist.
And please don't post any pictures of Ramses II; he's been discussed millions of times on here.
The mummies all fit in the North African type with North African features that existed prior to European influence.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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Welll besides, if those Egyptian relics are fabrications because of their appearance, then what do you say to Ife art? What the bad ol European man used a blow torch and made the features more Caucasoid?
Come on now!
Obvious and beautiful African features.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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I do think that ancient Egyptian art needs to be studied and authenticated to identify and make public fabrications and modifications. I do not believe in the crazy Caucasoid vs. Negroid vs. Mongoloid. Africans vary and authentically have the majority of human features. There are African who are elongated and broad faced and many with combination of these types and other facial types. I do believe that there is a strong possibility that some artifacts and statues have been modified. Look at the rampant racism that blemishes Egyptology from its inception. It seems like this branch of “science” actually was created on dogmatic sociopolitical beliefs. If they have the guts and brazenness to say that AE were black Caucasians but portray them as white Caucasians then I would not doubt that they would and could alter states. We know the bold intention is there to make AE a white civilization and we know the blatant lies (many by omission) and dishonest scholarship that is done and passed of as truth. Some of the noses honestly do look altered like someone might of tried to restore it and decided to make the nose just a "little" smaller. And why aren't they painting these stature with evidently dark brown specks of paint dark brown? I know they want to evidence of who the AE really were to disappear and replace it with their version. Why all of the “white looking” statues and mummies are always displayed and promoted as if they more authentic? But we have no concrete and documented evidence of this so this is why the artifacts and statues should be authenticated and studied for modern alterations and fraud. I know it has been done for select artifacts and statues but I think it needs to be done on a universal level. Honestly, Egyptology is so sloppy and stagnant I don't think it deserves the right to call itself a science. The way they (racist Egyptologist) deal with information selectively to uphold the revised version of AE history is not only shameful it’s pitiful!
Posts: 318 | From: PA. USA | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by osirion a.k.a bi-polar: How did your so called European fabricators make mummies that had Northern Hemisphere features?
No such mummies exist.
And please don't post any pictures of Ramses II; he's been discussed millions of times on here.
The mummies all fit in the North African type with North African features that existed prior to European influence.
North Africa isn't a part of the "Northern Hemisphere", and what exactly differentiates North African features from other African features, namely from the horn?? In addition, I'm still confused as to which mummies you're talking about. "Types" don't exist in Africa. You suffer from the same "typological thinking" that Keita warns us against.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by osirion a.k.a bi-polar: How did your so called European fabricators make mummies that had Northern Hemisphere features?
No such mummies exist.
And please don't post any pictures of Ramses II; he's been discussed millions of times on here.
The mummies all fit in the North African type with North African features that existed prior to European influence.
North Africa isn't a part of the "Northern Hemisphere", and what exactly differentiates North African features from other African features, namely from the horn?? In addition, I'm still confused as to which mummies you're talking about. "Types" don't exist in Africa. You suffer from the same "typological thinking" that Keita warns us against.
Huh? Look up Northern Hemisphere! Besides, there is a climatic difference between equatorial africa and northern africa. Indigenous people of either area would adapt differently over time.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Keins: I do think that ancient Egyptian art needs to be studied and authenticated to identify and make public fabrications and modifications. I do not believe in the crazy Caucasoid vs. Negroid vs. Mongoloid. Africans vary and authentically have the majority of human features. There are African who are elongated and broad faced and many with combination of these types and other facial types. I do believe that there is a strong possibility that some artifacts and statues have been modified. Look at the rampant racism that blemishes Egyptology from its inception. It seems like this branch of “science” actually was created on dogmatic sociopolitical beliefs. If they have the guts and brazenness to say that AE were black Caucasians but portray them as white Caucasians then I would not doubt that they would and could alter states. We know the bold intention is there to make AE a white civilization and we know the blatant lies (many by omission) and dishonest scholarship that is done and passed of as truth. Some of the noses honestly do look altered like someone might of tried to restore it and decided to make the nose just a "little" smaller. And why aren't they painting these stature with evidently dark brown specks of paint dark brown? I know they want to evidence of who the AE really were to disappear and replace it with their version. Why all of the “white looking” statues and mummies are always displayed and promoted as if they more authentic? But we have no concrete and documented evidence of this so this is why the artifacts and statues should be authenticated and studied for modern alterations and fraud. I know it has been done for select artifacts and statues but I think it needs to be done on a universal level. Honestly, Egyptology is so sloppy and stagnant I don't think it deserves the right to call itself a science. The way they (racist Egyptologist) deal with information selectively to uphold the revised version of AE history is not only shameful it’s pitiful!
All those so called European features are just your imagination. Take the average Ethiopian and ask how is it that you can tell that they are Ethiopian. For me it is the rounded forehead. This is what I notice in most mummies is that their forehead does not appear to be European. The same is true of Ife art, the shape of the forehead is common amongst sub-saharan Africans so the narrowness of the nose and lack of prognathism means little to me.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by osirion a.k.a bi-polar: How did your so called European fabricators make mummies that had Northern Hemisphere features?
No such mummies exist.
And please don't post any pictures of Ramses II; he's been discussed millions of times on here.
The mummies all fit in the North African type withere [above the equator], have the same featurh North African features that existed prior to European influence.
North Africa isn't a part of the "Northern Hemisphere", and what exactly differentiates North African features from other African features, namely from the horn?? In addition, I'm still confused as to which mummies you're talking about. "Types" don't exist in Africa. You suffer from the same "typological thinking" that Keita warns us against.
Huh? Look up Northern Hemisphere! Besides, there is a climatic difference between equatorial africa and northern africa. Indigenous people of either area would adapt differently over time.
My mistake, but it seems that the "Northern Hemisphere" as technically defined, includes ALL of west Africa, and parts of central and east Africa, so your so-called "Northern Hemisphere features" comprise that which is seen in those places which would include more than half of the world's diversity, so you still make no sense. And there are climate differences all over Africa. The climate in Northwest Africa is quite different from that in the NorthEast so you can't pigeon hold Africa or attribute features exclusively to one climate, ignoring complex migration patterns and demographic effects in the Nile valley, as well as actual climate/geological changes and recent population divergences. The way you used the term "Northern Hemisphere" [in relation to 'features'] was confusing. The connotation I honestly got was that of Europe and Asia, etc, as opposed to just "north of the equator". Surely you aren't saying the Nigerians, who are firmly and technically within the Northern Hemisphere though, have the same "features" as East Asians, who also reside in the Northern Hemisphere.
Besides, you've still yet to show which mummies you're talking about since Sonia Zakrzewski, Robins, Kemp, Keita and others already confirm a body plan in the ancient Egyptians [spanning all locales and time periods] reflective of a tropical [Equatorial] adaptation, and "super-Negroid" limb proportions.
quote:"Another source of skeletal data is limb proportions, which generally vary with different climatic belts. In general, the early Nile Valley remains have the proportions of more tropical populations, which is noteworthy since Egypt is not in the tropics. This suggests that the Egyptian Nile Valley was not primarily settled by cold-adapted peoples, such as Europeans. "
The nature of the body plan was also investigated by comparing the intermembral, brachial, and crural indices for these samples with values obtained from the literature. No significant differences were found in either index through time for either sex. The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-Negroid” body plan described by Robins (1983). The values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations (data from Aiello and Dean, 1990). This pattern is supported by Figure 7 a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; (data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations. - Sonia Zakrzewski (2003)
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Keins: I do think that ancient Egyptian art needs to be studied and authenticated to identify and make public fabrications and modifications. I do not believe in the crazy Caucasoid vs. Negroid vs. Mongoloid. Africans vary and authentically have the majority of human features. There are African who are elongated and broad faced and many with combination of these types and other facial types. I do believe that there is a strong possibility that some artifacts and statues have been modified. Look at the rampant racism that blemishes Egyptology from its inception. It seems like this branch of “science” actually was created on dogmatic sociopolitical beliefs. If they have the guts and brazenness to say that AE were black Caucasians but portray them as white Caucasians then I would not doubt that they would and could alter states. We know the bold intention is there to make AE a white civilization and we know the blatant lies (many by omission) and dishonest scholarship that is done and passed of as truth. Some of the noses honestly do look altered like someone might of tried to restore it and decided to make the nose just a "little" smaller. And why aren't they painting these stature with evidently dark brown specks of paint dark brown? I know they want to evidence of who the AE really were to disappear and replace it with their version. Why all of the “white looking” statues and mummies are always displayed and promoted as if they more authentic? But we have no concrete and documented evidence of this so this is why the artifacts and statues should be authenticated and studied for modern alterations and fraud. I know it has been done for select artifacts and statues but I think it needs to be done on a universal level. Honestly, Egyptology is so sloppy and stagnant I don't think it deserves the right to call itself a science. The way they (racist Egyptologist) deal with information selectively to uphold the revised version of AE history is not only shameful it’s pitiful!
All those so called European features are just your imagination. Take the average Ethiopian and ask how is it that you can tell that they are Ethiopian. For me it is the rounded forehead. This is what I notice in most mummies is that their forehead does not appear to be European. The same is true of Ife art, the shape of the forehead is common amongst sub-saharan Africans so the narrowness of the nose and lack of prognathism means little to me.
See, you are so confusing as you immediately contradict yourself. No wonder I can hardly understand half of what you're saying or mean...
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: The guy (Mike) has the nerve to be is calling ME racist yet attributes every statue with a small or narrow nose as being forged or modified?! So he says that only those with broad noses are authentic because Egyptians like all blacks can only have broad noses?!
....Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is nothing forged about that statue and even Egytpian paintings show Sudanese people with longer pointier noses than themslves!
Obviously this is a new low in thinking.
Posts: 213 | From: New York City, USA | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Keins: I do think that ancient Egyptian art needs to be studied and authenticated to identify and make public fabrications and modifications. I do not believe in the crazy Caucasoid vs. Negroid vs. Mongoloid. Africans vary and authentically have the majority of human features. There are African who are elongated and broad faced and many with combination of these types and other facial types. I do believe that there is a strong possibility that some artifacts and statues have been modified. Look at the rampant racism that blemishes Egyptology from its inception. It seems like this branch of “science” actually was created on dogmatic sociopolitical beliefs. If they have the guts and brazenness to say that AE were black Caucasians but portray them as white Caucasians then I would not doubt that they would and could alter states. We know the bold intention is there to make AE a white civilization and we know the blatant lies (many by omission) and dishonest scholarship that is done and passed of as truth. Some of the noses honestly do look altered like someone might of tried to restore it and decided to make the nose just a "little" smaller. And why aren't they painting these stature with evidently dark brown specks of paint dark brown? I know they want to evidence of who the AE really were to disappear and replace it with their version. Why all of the “white looking” statues and mummies are always displayed and promoted as if they more authentic? But we have no concrete and documented evidence of this so this is why the artifacts and statues should be authenticated and studied for modern alterations and fraud. I know it has been done for select artifacts and statues but I think it needs to be done on a universal level. Honestly, Egyptology is so sloppy and stagnant I don't think it deserves the right to call itself a science. The way they (racist Egyptologist) deal with information selectively to uphold the revised version of AE history is not only shameful it’s pitiful!
All those so called European features are just your imagination. Take the average Ethiopian and ask how is it that you can tell that they are Ethiopian. For me it is the rounded forehead. This is what I notice in most mummies is that their forehead does not appear to be European. The same is true of Ife art, the shape of the forehead is common amongst sub-saharan Africans so the narrowness of the nose and lack of prognathism means little to me.
See, you are so confusing as you immediately contradict yourself. No wonder I can hardly understand half of what you're saying or mean...
My understanding from anthropologists is that narrow nasal index is attributable to more northern climates and or higher altitudes or arid conditions.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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[Djehuti (Clarence?) writes above to Akoban] You are very much like Clyde or Marc in accusing me of be anti-black just because I call out their false appropriation of other culures for black Africans!
[Marc writes] Djehuti. YOU WISH I condemned you for being anti-black.
IF I CALLED YOU "ANTI-BLACK" that would have been flattering to my reason for condemning you.
My condemnation of you is more ominous. I condemn you for something you have control over but make a choice to submit to. A compulsion to lie on others:
quote:Originally posted by Keins: I do think that ancient Egyptian art needs to be studied and authenticated to identify and make public fabrications and modifications. I do not believe in the crazy Caucasoid vs. Negroid vs. Mongoloid. Africans vary and authentically have the majority of human features. There are African who are elongated and broad faced and many with combination of these types and other facial types. I do believe that there is a strong possibility that some artifacts and statues have been modified. Look at the rampant racism that blemishes Egyptology from its inception. It seems like this branch of “science” actually was created on dogmatic sociopolitical beliefs. If they have the guts and brazenness to say that AE were black Caucasians but portray them as white Caucasians then I would not doubt that they would and could alter states. We know the bold intention is there to make AE a white civilization and we know the blatant lies (many by omission) and dishonest scholarship that is done and passed of as truth. Some of the noses honestly do look altered like someone might of tried to restore it and decided to make the nose just a "little" smaller. And why aren't they painting these stature with evidently dark brown specks of paint dark brown? I know they want to evidence of who the AE really were to disappear and replace it with their version. Why all of the “white looking” statues and mummies are always displayed and promoted as if they more authentic? But we have no concrete and documented evidence of this so this is why the artifacts and statues should be authenticated and studied for modern alterations and fraud. I know it has been done for select artifacts and statues but I think it needs to be done on a universal level. Honestly, Egyptology is so sloppy and stagnant I don't think it deserves the right to call itself a science. The way they (racist Egyptologist) deal with information selectively to uphold the revised version of AE history is not only shameful it’s pitiful!
All those so called European features are just your imagination. Take the average Ethiopian and ask how is it that you can tell that they are Ethiopian. For me it is the rounded forehead. This is what I notice in most mummies is that their forehead does not appear to be European. The same is true of Ife art, the shape of the forehead is common amongst sub-saharan Africans so the narrowness of the nose and lack of prognathism means little to me.
See, you are so confusing as you immediately contradict yourself. No wonder I can hardly understand half of what you're saying or mean...
My understanding from anthropologists is that narrow nasal index is attributable to more northern climates and or higher altitudes or arid conditions.
This is false, and as stated, West Africa is in the "Northern Hemisphere" per technical definition...
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
^Plus, arid conditions and high altitudes don't require being in a northern hemispheric geography..
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: ^Plus, arid conditions and high altitudes don't require being in a northern hemispheric geography..
No of course not but I am attributing the nasal index of Egyptians to their more Northern latitudes and thus describing their features based on that. Not a good description but it isn't easy trying to account for facial feature differences of Northern Africa compared to Equatorial Africa. U6 mtDNA that is clearly of northern Caucus origins and has been present in North Africa for 30,000 years could be a part of the diversity of facial features but insitu evolution is a more logical explaination. Climatic adaptation is enough of an explaination.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: [qb] ^Plus, arid conditions and high altitudes don't require being in a northern hemispheric geography..
No of course not but I am attributing the nasal index of Egyptians to their more Northern latitudes and thus describing their features based on that.
The Egyptians didn't reside in a "northern latitude", they resided in the northern hemisphere, as do west Africans so your argument makes no sense. This is why you confused me with how you use such terms.
quote:U6 mtDNA that is clearly of northern Caucus origins and has been present in North Africa for 30,000 years
There's no evidence for either of these claims..
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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