Ancient Egyptian as an African Language, Egypt as an African Culture
Christopher Ehret Professor of History, African Studies Chair University of California at Los Angeles
Ancient Egyptian civilization was, in ways and to an extent usually not recognized, fundamentally African. The evidence of both language and culture reveals these African roots.
The origins of Egyptian ethnicity lay in the areas south of Egypt.
Well heres one piece of information, care to comment ArabianArab, NO then I will go on:
Sir Alan Gardiner: These were long-headed-dolicocephalic is the learned term-and below even medium stature, but Negroid features are often to be observed. Whatever may be said of the northerners, it is safe to describe the dwellers in Upper Egypt as of essentially African stock , a character always retained despite alien influences brought to bear on them from time to time." (pg. 392; Egypt of the Pharaohs 1966)
Oh look more facts linking Egyptians to Africans
X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980).
Courtesy of James Harris and Edward Wente:
In terms of head shape, the XVIV and XX dynasties look more like the early Nubian skulls from the mesolithic with low vaults and sloping, curved foreheads.The XVII and XVIII dynasty skulls are shaped more like modern Nubians with globular skulls and high vaults.
Now we Have Links to Nubians. Can you believe that there is so much Facts linking Ancient Egyptians to Africans? Wait theres more
The people who bear the greatest resemblence to the ancient Egyptians, at present, are the Nubians; and next are the Abyssinians ; page 530
Edward Lane Manners and Customs of the Modern Egyptians
Still not done:
The period when sub-Saharan Africa was most influential in Egypt was a time when neither Egypt, as we understand it culturally, nor the Sahara, as we understand it geographically, existed. Populations and cultures now found south of the desert roamed far to the north. The culture of Upper Egypt, which became dynastic Egyptian civilization, could fairly be called a Sudanese transplant. Encyclopedia of Precolonial Africa, by Joseph O. Vogel, AltaMira Press, Walnut Creek, California (1997), pp. 465-472
One more Fact and I am done:
Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues
A-M Mekota1, M Vermehren2
Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13
"Materials and methods In 1997, the German Institute for Archaeology headed an excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. At this time, three types of tissues were sampled from different mummies: meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and placenta. Archaeological findings suggest that the mummies dated from the New Kingdom (approximately 1550_/1080 BC)..... The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin."
These are all *FACTS*
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18: Where do you get this study from.
What difference does it make to you, since you either can't read it, or don't know what a proportion is.
You sure seem upset by it though.
I don't know why it upsets you. ALL STUDIES OF ARABS CONFIRM their African ancestry.
all.....of....them.
So trying to attack the study won't help.
im not angry about it at all lol...im actually not having any strong emotions about the study to be honest Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: [QB] Contrary to your assumption, the essence of the riddle isn't in whether the igorant person is "aware" of the subject matter. The issue is centered on the word ARGUING. For someone who is intelligent doesn't ARGUE with people who are UNAWARE of a particular subject matter.
So Well, I guess that I'm not intelligent. Thanx for the overgeneralized, sage-like proverbial observation. Though like I said, the intent of the riddle fell short for reasons exemplified. Now it's not about ignorance, but intelligence. Way to move the goal post and insult people in the process.
quote:Secondly, I think you should review the term intelligent for it means, "to understand, discern." To understand anything means to KNOW (derived from the metaphor to stand upon).
Actually, intelligence is an innate property synonymous with being "mentally acute", "witty", capable of learning. Educated would be a working antonym for ignorant, not intelligent.
quote:Again, if your going to waste energy, write for a peer reviewed journal or write a book.
Eventually I may, God willing, but I'm still young and have free time. Though I guess lacking the credentials and not writing in a peer reviewed journal at age 23 makes me "non-intelligent".. Dude, I'm still in school! LOL..
quote: If you're really confident invite people to open debates and make a dvd.
For what? I have no access to a publisher, I have not the funds to do so, I don't have the marketing to reach a wider audience than those who read this forum, so why and how? Give me a practical answer for your overarching [get up and fly to the moon tomorrow type] suggestions.
quote:Otherwise, your energy could be spent on furthering the discipline instead of debating with an ignorant Arab.
In the words of Dr. John Henrick Clarke, "I only debate my equals, all others I teach."
I'm sure Dr. Clarke wouldn't bother posting on a website such as this for more than once a week either. I'm not Dr. Clarke, I'm a 23 year old young man being entertained and trying to break through potential readers and maybe even influence, if not overtly, the opinion of an ignorant person who doesn't know any better. But you can judge me as much as you judge the ArabianArab guy for all I care, I'll continue to do me.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by KING: Reposting for ArabianArab. Read and Learn
Ancient Egyptian as an African Language, Egypt as an African Culture
Christopher Ehret Professor of History, African Studies Chair University of California at Los Angeles
Ancient Egyptian civilization was, in ways and to an extent usually not recognized, fundamentally African. The evidence of both language and culture reveals these African roots.
The origins of Egyptian ethnicity lay in the areas south of Egypt.
Well heres one piece of information, care to comment ArabianArab, NO then I will go on:
Sir Alan Gardiner: These were long-headed-dolicocephalic is the learned term-and below even medium stature, but Negroid features are often to be observed. Whatever may be said of the northerners, it is safe to describe the dwellers in Upper Egypt as of essentially African stock , a character always retained despite alien influences brought to bear on them from time to time." (pg. 392; Egypt of the Pharaohs 1966)
Oh look more facts linking Egyptians to Africans
X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980).
Courtesy of James Harris and Edward Wente:
In terms of head shape, the XVIV and XX dynasties look more like the early Nubian skulls from the mesolithic with low vaults and sloping, curved foreheads.The XVII and XVIII dynasty skulls are shaped more like modern Nubians with globular skulls and high vaults.
Now we Have Links to Nubians. Can you believe that there is so much Facts linking Ancient Egyptians to Africans? Wait theres more
The people who bear the greatest resemblence to the ancient Egyptians, at present, are the Nubians; and next are the Abyssinians ; page 530
Edward Lane Manners and Customs of the Modern Egyptians
Still not done:
The period when sub-Saharan Africa was most influential in Egypt was a time when neither Egypt, as we understand it culturally, nor the Sahara, as we understand it geographically, existed. Populations and cultures now found south of the desert roamed far to the north. The culture of Upper Egypt, which became dynastic Egyptian civilization, could fairly be called a Sudanese transplant. Encyclopedia of Precolonial Africa, by Joseph O. Vogel, AltaMira Press, Walnut Creek, California (1997), pp. 465-472
One more Fact and I am done:
Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues
A-M Mekota1, M Vermehren2
Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13
"Materials and methods In 1997, the German Institute for Archaeology headed an excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. At this time, three types of tissues were sampled from different mummies: meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and placenta. Archaeological findings suggest that the mummies dated from the New Kingdom (approximately 1550_/1080 BC)..... The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin."
These are all *FACTS*
Peace
^ Excellent posts.
As King understands....you never make and 'unintelligent' person the focus of your discourse.
You simply relate facts...
Actually and ignorant person -does- benefit potentially as they can learn from facts.
You don't argue with them, you merely teach them.
Now, a racist imbecile like Arabian Arab isn't going to learn anything, since his brain is rendered disfunctional due to his self-hating Arab psychosis.
However, that doesn't matter, since his willful stupidity should not stop you from learning. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
1390, "faculty of understanding," from O.Fr. intelligence (12c.), from L. intelligentia "understanding," from intelligentem (nom. intelligens) "discerning," prp. of intelligere "to understand, comprehend," from inter- "between" + legere "choose, pick out, read" (see lecture). Meaning superior understanding, sagacity" is from c.1430. Sense of "information, news" first recorded c.1450, especially "secret information from spies" (1587). Intelligent is a 1509 back-formation; Intelligentsia "the intellectual class collectively" is 1907, from Rus. intelligyentsia, from Latin. Intelligence quotient first recorded 1922 (see I.Q.).
understand Look up understand at Dictionary.com O.E. understandan "comprehend, grasp the idea of," probably lit. "stand in the midst of," from under + standan "to stand" (see stand). If this is the meaning, the under is not the usual word meaning "beneath," but from O.E. under, from PIE *nter- "between, among" (cf. Skt. antar "among, between," L. inter "between, among," Gk. entera "intestines;" see inter-). But the exact notion is unclear. Perhaps the ult. sense is "be close to," cf. Gk. epistamai "I know how, I know," lit. "I stand upon." Similar formations are found in O.Fris. (understonda), M.Dan. (understande), while other Gmc. languages use compounds meaning "stand before" (cf. Ger. verstehen, represented in O.E. by forstanden ). For this concept, most I.E. languages use fig. extensions of compounds that lit. mean "put together," or "separate," or "take, grasp."
You can have the last word.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
1390, "faculty of understanding," from O.Fr. intelligence (12c.), from L. intelligentia "understanding," from intelligentem (nom. intelligens) "discerning," prp. of intelligere "to understand, comprehend," from inter- "between" + legere "choose, pick out, read" (see lecture). Meaning superior understanding, sagacity" is from c.1430. Sense of "information, news" first recorded c.1450, especially "secret information from spies" (1587). Intelligent is a 1509 back-formation; Intelligentsia "the intellectual class collectively" is 1907, from Rus. intelligyentsia, from Latin. Intelligence quotient first recorded 1922 (see I.Q.).
You can have the last word.
Thanx for giving me the last word, since I would have taken it anyways. Cherry picking doesn't help you, especially when your own definition affirms mine as they confirm it to be synonymous with comprehension and sagacity...
or - acuteness of mental discernment and soundness of judgment.
Acute - Keenly perceptive or discerning
First definition [of intelligence] as defined by Merriam-Webster Online - the ABILITY to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations
Next time, do your OWN research...
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ArabianArab: That reflects only of the descendants of African slaves and Arabized African. The Arabs who have Negroid blood have it only through their mothers. As we Arabs never marry our daughters into slaves.
Newsflash, that study wasn't done on mtDNA and Arabs do have paternal African ancestry independent of the slave trade:
The presence of the E3a-M2 lineage in Oman (7.4%),4 Yemen (3.2%), UAE (5.5%) and Qatar (2.8%) could lead to the oversimplified conclusion that these chromosomes are also a contribution from the East African slave trade. Mitochondrial DNA analysis of the Yemen Hadramawt indicates recent gene flow (B2500 yBP) from Africa to the Arab populations in part through the slave trade, yet an ancient arrival from East Africa is responsible for the Y-chromosome haplotypes.
European Journal of Human Genetics (2007), 1–13 Y-chromosome diversity characterizes the Gulf of Oman
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I believe most of the people who are willfully ignorant to the facts actually do learn in the process after being forced to confront irrefutable and contrary data to their position coming in. Even a monkey can learn to associate symbols with certain concepts, given repetition. Even if they don't outwardly admit it, usually there is some kind of break through, which is evident in the way anti-Africanist arguments keep changing, alluding to a change in strategy and an acknowledgment that they've learned something, at least enough to know that what they thought they used to know was bogus. It's ideology which blinds them more than anything.
quote:Actually and ignorant person -does- benefit potentially as they can learn from facts.
You don't argue with them, you merely teach them.
Agreed..
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
That's Dr Clarke not Mr Clarke. We must respect the academic accomplishments of our own as we do that of others, especially of one now among the ancestors but gave so much of himself when still mortal. "I read myself blind for those who would not see." [paraphrase of Dr. Clarke]
What I'm sure of is that Dr Clarke wouldn't assume to know better than the wisdom ancestors passed on to us for our betterment in social dealings in the world. "If an intelligent man and an ignorant man are arguing, how can you tell who's who?"
That is a jewel of wisdom that I wish I could implement. For indeed, both such ones are the ignorant neither of them is the intelligent.
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata:
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: In the words of Dr. John Henrick Clarke, "I only debate my equals, all others I teach."
I'm sure Mr. Clarke wouldn't bother posting on a website such as this for more than once a week either.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
^^I didn't realize that I did that [or its implicit disrespect] and made the appropriate edit. Thanx for catching it.. Though of course my intention was to express the view that I am not a teacher, thus, such doesn't apply. I learn more than I teach and correct the ignorant based on what I've learned. In my own humility, I'm nothing like Dr. Clarke and probably won't ever be.. That was the only point I was making though.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:The presence of the E3a-M2 lineage in Oman (7.4%),4 Yemen (3.2%), UAE (5.5%) and Qatar (2.8%) could lead to the oversimplified conclusion that these chromosomes are also a contribution from the East African slave trade. Mitochondrial DNA analysis of the Yemen Hadramawt indicates recent gene flow (B2500 yBP) from Africa to the Arab populations in part through the slave trade, yet an ancient arrival from East Africa is responsible for the Y-chromosome haplotypes.
Arabian Arab is really a dummy though.
He might be just smart enough to associate the African father ancestry with the color green on the map - however - he likely can't make the connection between the ancient penetrations of his East African forefathers into the Levantine - as noted above - and the birth of the Semitic languages.
Semitic languages come from Africa, which is why they are releated to Chadic, Cushitic, Omatic, etc., with Semitic being the youngest member of this family.
They *do not* come from EurAsia, which is why they are -not related- to Latin, Germanic, Slavic, etc..
Pained mongrel-Arab in denial tracing his fantasy ancestry back to Mohammad and the white she goat. Because this is what he would rather believe.
posted
Solid, but you are a teacher. You teach whenever your words inform someone of something they never knew. I have found myself informed by words that have come from you.
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: ^^I didn't realize that I did that [or its implicit disrespect] and made the appropriate edit. Thanx for catching it.. Though of course my intention was to express the view that I am not a teacher, thus, such doesn't apply. I learn more than I teach and correct the ignorant based on what I've learned. In my own humility, I'm nothing like Dr. Clarke and probably won't ever be.. That was the only point I was making though.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
^^Righteous! I didn't know that but It's refreshing to know.
I'd also like to say to Asar Imhotep, that I understand the trust of your point, but was probably being a bit defensive [a character flaw of mine] and non-receptive to what you were saying since at the time, I was a bit more concerned with keeping the negative attention away from those who had good intentions, while concentrating on the facts involved in this so-called "discussion" [of which, it is not]. So, excuse me for that...
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
Your chart just proved what I have said. Only in the coast can you find Yemenis mixed with Negroid. Oman ruled Africa and brought many African slaves on the coast but still the pure Arabs are majority. Same goes to the Arabian gulf states.
-------------------- I have healty amount of Negrophobia Posts: 51 | From: العالم العربي | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
Remember few hundred Almoravid sodiers destroyed the armies of Ghana who had thousands of soldiers.
Not sure how an African on African conflict is something that warrants gloating over, unless you're trying to lay "claim" on an African group: "Almarovids"? Hypocrisy raises its ugly head once again.
Besides:
"Yusuf ibn Tashfin, leader of the Almoravid forces, was "a brown man. with wooly hair", according to the Arab chronicler Al-Fasi. (per DeCosta)"
Courtesy of Wiki, Abd Allah's "Roudh el-Kartas" says the following of Tashfin, per translation to French by A.Beaumier, and then into English:
"Brown color, middle height, thin, little beard, soft voice, black eyes, straight nose, lock of Muhammed falling on the top of his ear, eye brow joined, wooly hair"
No coincidence there, or that old Spanish flags have "black Moorish heads" of four fallen "Moorish princes", but certainly interesting that you feel the need to lay claim to another dark skin ("black") African group.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
I'm not the one foaming over an Arab version of white nord, if he really is an Arab.
Jewish-enslaved numbnut, if you're posting in this thread, then you've fallen for it. Get your Jewish-enslaved ass with the program. This goes for those here passing judgement on others about entertaining a troll.
quote:Naggin' Jewish-enslaved chi chi buay:
Mighty Israelite army indeed!!! LOLOOL But Im surprised a commie like you Ausarianstein would glee at might of colonial state over those fighting occupation. But I guess like all true "New Left" Jews your support for oppressed peoples stops with Israeli victims of Israeli colonialism. True colors as Arwa said.
You get surprised all the time, because that's what lies do to a person; liars are unprepared to deal with reality. Unprepared exposure to reality, in contradiction to your mental bubble of lies, naturally has the effect of shocking the hell out of your Jewish-enslaved ass.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
Nonsence Muslim Arabs and Berber took Spain from the Germanic Visgoth. The Tureg did not conquered any part of Europe. It was Arabs and Berbers.
With your 'armchair' African experience, you need a few doses of reality; Tamasheq kels and Sanhaja groups alike come from the same sources that produced Almoravid "Beber" groups. While the Almoravids weren't one of your Arab clans, you certainly may feel free to lay claim on an African group, which you professed to be above doing. Lol.
quote:ArabianArab writes:
The ARabs were the ruling elite and the civilization was Arab/Islamic. All the dynasties that ruled that regions were made of mostly Arabs and some times Berbers.
Actually, much of Islamic rule duration in Spain was under African "Berber" empires than under the "Arab ruling elite".
quote:ArabianArab writes:
Blacks had no techonolocy to conquered any lands of other.
Making this comment, while speaking of Almoravids, makes this self-defeating--doesn't it? Take another example; say, What about Aksumite colonization of Sabeans? Is it not an insult to the Sabeans, rather than the Aksumites, that you'd say that they were conquered and colonized by "blacks with no technology".
quote:ArabianArab writes:
Why do you think blacks exchnaged gold with salt if they knew of the sea?
If so, could it be perhaps because salt was more readily usable and valuable to the expansion of their societies at large than unprocessed gold? Aparrently the concept of trade is new to you.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Berbers are not Black. They are white. Even the noble Tuaregs are not blacks, only their slaves and serfs are blacks. You can claim Berbers and Egyptians in the name of Africanism but none of them are/were Negroids.
The Almoravids were Berbers of south Morocco. Those Saharan tribes are not black or Negroids.
Aksum was founded by us Arabian anyway. And they came to occupy small parts of Arab lands for only short 40 years with the help of Romans and Persians.
My point is black were backward people and primitive. They knew no value of gold. And the salt is only near that. Why didn't they go to the sources of the salt and buy it from there?
-------------------- I have healty amount of Negrophobia Posts: 51 | From: العالم العربي | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
Only through claiming other peoples have negroid blood can blacks claim any greatnss lol funny but sad!
Who are these "other people"?
I mean after all, you are to one here taking misplaced pride in *African* peoples aka Moors, Berbers, Ancient Egyptians, Aksum (which you profess to be Sabean) on the grounds that they are supposedly cleansed of "negroid" involvement. Why is that the case; it is not like the folks here, are the ones who are in some "Arab"-Search forum, suggesting that "Arabian" Arabs are something other than what they are, just because they would like to lay claim on them, is it?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
What does "Berber" constitute? Expound on broad content of entity, and objectively lead us on why "they are white".
quote:Babbling ArabianArab:
Even the noble Tuaregs are not blacks, only their slaves and serfs are blacks.
Again, on what scientific critera do you deem Tuaregs not "blacks". Skin melanin perhaps, lineages, language; what?
quote:Babbling ArabianArab:
You can claim Berbers and Egyptians in the name of Africanism but none of them are/were Negroids.
No-brainer - I cannot claim them on the grounds of something of which they already are; What does "Negroid" mean *scientifically* to you.
quote:Babbling ArabianArab:
Aksum was founded by us Arabian anyway.
You asked to prove this loony toon claim, and you know why you fell short of doing so, don't you?
quote:Babbling ArabianArab:
And they came to occupy small parts of Arab lands for only short 40 years with the help of Romans and Persians.
Imagine that; a bunch of Africans with no technology conquering Sabean land. Also, since when did Sabeans become "Arabs" in the sense that you profess? Looks like you're claiming another group of folks who weren't Arabic speakers like your desert wandering clans.
quote:Babbling ArabianArab:
My point is black were backward people and primitive.
And here's mine: your point is null and void; it is symptomatic of an idiot. Now, you feel better?
quote:Babbling ArabianArab:
They knew no value of gold.
Why, because they traded it in exchange for something that was considered more valuable to them at the time? You must not be a business man, I take it.
quote:Babbling ArabianArab:
And the salt is only near that. Why didn't they go to the sources of the salt and buy it from there?
You ask these dumb questions, precisely because a)your are an Arab African-wannabe buffoon; 2) you have "armchair" African experience, with which you profess to be an expert of matters African.
Trans-Saharan Trade network was a sufficiently working apparatus to both coastal North African kingdoms and Sahelian/Sub-Saharan kingdoms. The Sahelian/sub-Saharan complexes had their dependable trading African parties to their north and vice versa; why on earth, would they need to go off to far-off places to trade, when the said trade network was adequate to fullfiling their socio-economic growth? They traded for a number of value-added goods other than comodity like salt. But being the ignorant Arab you are, your narrow mind zeros in on select pieces of information, with which, as an 'armchair' scholar on African matters, you profess to know anything African. Do yourself a favor; do some basic reading on African affairs; better yet, do basic reading on world affairs, before you open your mouth on anything.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
Really; cite a factual source that says "Moor" was coined for use on Arabs with "Andalusian Arab roots".
quote:Babbling ArabianArab:
I don't wanna be insulted and called Negroid when I am not.
Dude, your stupidity has beaten anyone to directing insults at you. Plus, you are the one here complaining about "negroids"; nobody knocked your door about claiming an Arab buffoon as a "negroid".
quote:Babbling ArabianArab:
Africa is geographical term. It only meant modern day north Africa anyway. White South Africans are also Africans. So go and claim the great Boers.
It can be said Arabian is only a linguistic term, which could just as well apply to geography and ethnicity, just as African could applied accordingly. Settler immigrants to the Arabian peninsula, just as white settler immigrants anywhere, could just as well be referred to as "Arabians".
quote:Babbling ArabianArab:
It only meant modern day north Africa anyway.
In that the entire continent is designated "Africa", what can you do about it, short of weeping about it? Plus, to the extent that the northern region of the continent was referred to as such at some point or another in a distant time frame, it attests to the limitations of knowledge [of any outsider] about the greater part of the continent. How does that soothen your feelings?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ArabianArab: Berbers are not Black. They are white.
Please.. White, as applied socially refers to the leucoderm populations whose origins lay in Northern Europe. Berber-speakers vary in complexion from light to dark and share Y-Chromosome ancestry with Africans of all colors before they do so with the said northern Europeans. They are a complex group who can't be defined under your ignorant model of "Black or White" as they are not monolithic. Though it goes with out saying that Berber is a language group, of which originated in tropical East Africa, a region inhabited by Blacks, thus, the original Berbers were Black and so are many of today's.
quote: Even the noble Tuaregs are not blacks, only their slaves and serfs are blacks.
Please.. Tuareg are diverse as well, but for convenience, type the word "tuareg" into a google search [google, or google images] and the very first images you see are of Black Africans. Tuaregs notably represent a preservation of the phenotypes seen among the original inhabitants of the Sahara, as do the Haritan and Fula.
quote:You can claim Berbers and Egyptians in the name of Africanism but none of them are/were Negroids.
Of course, since "Negroid" is a misnomer and a distraction. They were Black. Read the top of the thread for info on the orientation of early Egyptians, and info on its contemporary population, namely in the south.
quote:The Almoravids were Berbers of south Morocco. Those Saharan tribes are not black or Negroids.
The people of the Sahara are diverse and come in many complexions, many of whom are indeed as black as anyone else, including the Almoravids.
quote:Aksum was founded by us Arabian anyway. And they came to occupy small parts of Arab lands for only short 40 years with the help of Romans and Persians.
LOL! You are a hypocrite the way you accuse people of doing exactly what it is you're doing, ironically criticizing Africans for believing that a civilization in Africa was formed and sustained by actual Africans who lived there. Why must you look away from Arabia to find civilization attributable to Arabs?
Anyway, more on Askum:
The Habashat, and the Origins of Ethiopian Civilisation
An intimate relationship between Ethiopia and Yemen in ancient times has also been postulated from the fact that several place and clan names, as well as inscriptions in the South Arabian language Sabaean, are found in both countries.
The existence of shared names on either side of the Red Sea caused the Italian scholar Carlo Conti Rossini to postulate, however somewhat simplistically, that the very name of Abyssinia was of Yemeni origin. The word is generally believed to be derived from the name Habashat, used to designate a people which lived in the north of historic Ethiopia, in what are now the highlands of part of Eritrea and Tigray.
Land on both sides of the Red Sea, according to the ancient geographer Ptolemy (AD 150)
Conti Rossini assumed that the Habashat actually originated in Yemen, and later established themselves, as colonists, on the Ethiopian side of the Red Sea, where, he believed, they introduced their name. It was his belief, furthermore, that the South Arabian language, and writing, represented the origin and basis of the Ethiopian tongue and script Ge‘ez.
These suppositions were once widely accepted. The British Arabist Spencer Trimingham for example wrote, in 1952, that the Habashat, or “agriculturalist mountaineers” of Yemen, faced with population pressure, and the failure of their irrigation system, crossed the intervening sea, and, after leaving the “inhospitable coastal zone” of Ethiopia, “found a country [in the Ethiopian interior] which possessed the same climate and vegetation as their own land”. The Habashat, he claims, thereupon “assumed a predominance over all the other tribes, and its chief took the title of negus nagasti (chief of chiefs)”. As a result, “the kingdom of Habashat consolidated itself about the third century B.C., when its rule extended over the plateau region of Eritrea and northern Tigrai”.
“Settlers and Colonizers”
Elaborating on this supposed migration, Trimingham claimed that the Yemeni migrants “came as settlers and colonizers”, “brought their regional names with them”, settled in the plateau regions “most suitable for agriculture”, and “brought the fully developed civilization of the Sabaeans”. The Yemenis, he claims, “introduced the use of metals, certain domestic animals, new plants, advanced systems of irrigation and agriculture, new forms of communal organization, and the art of writing”.
Conti Rossini’s thesis, which was based largely on conjecture, was, however, subsequently undermined by the work of a number of other scholars approaching the question from different disciplines and interests. One of the first of these scholars was Joseph Greenberg, whose Studies in African Linguistic Classification, appeared in 1955. In it he argued that the Semitic languages, found on both sides of the Red Sea, were in no way unique to the region, but formed part of a very much wider Afroasiatic language family scattered over much of Africa, as far as Chad in the west.
Jacqueline Pirenne
In the following year, 1956, Jacqueline Pirenne, a scholar of early Arabian history, drastically revised South Arabian chronology. Her new dating was significant to the question of Ethiopian origins, for it indicated that Sabaean immigrants to Ethiopia did not live in Ethiopia for centuries, as Conti Rossini had postulated, but only for no more than a few decades.
Six years later, in 1962, the Dutch linguist A.J. Drewes, published his important Inscriptions ie l’Ethiopie antique. It revealed the existence in Ethiopia of Ge‘ez graffiti, and other inscriptions, which were quite as old as the South Arabian inscriptions in Ethiopia. This discovery showed that Conti Rossini had been mistaken in assuming that Sabaean inscriptions in the country represented the prototype from which Ge‘ez had later developed.
In the following decade the Italian archaeologist Rodolfo Fattovich, working in Nubia, unearthed ancient pottery virtually identical to that which had been produced in Ethiopia prior to the founding of Aksum. This evidence suggested that the early material culture of Aksum was of essentially African origin, and had thus developed entirely independently of South Arabian immigration.
Roger Schneider
This thesis was further spelt out, in the following year, by the epigraphist Roger Schneider. Emphasising the entirely unproven character of Conti Rossini’s suppositions, he pointed out for example that the people of northern Ethiopia, living as they did in a rocky environment, did not have to wait for the arrival of the Sabaeans to erect houses built of stone. He argued further that Sabaeans who came to Ethiopia “did not arrive in a cultural vacuum”, but that, on the contrary, a significant Ethiopian state, people, and language had existed well before their advent. He contended further that Sabaean settlement was restricted to a few localities, and did not impinge greatly on Northern Ethiopia as a whole.
Schneider’s final conclusion was that similarities between South Arabian and Ethiopian civilization had in fact existed long before the coming to Ethiopia of the Sabaeans.
These and other arguments in support of Ethiopian origins independent of South Arabia were subsequently supported by other scholars, among them three linguists, the Ethiopian Abraham Demoz, the American Grover Hudson, and the Englishman David Appleyard, at a Conference on Ethiopian Origins, organised by the present writer at the School of Oriental and African Studies, in June 1978.
Standing Conti Rossini on his Head
The result of such convergent investigations by scholars working in different fields was that Jacqueline Pirenne, basing herself on the area’s material culture, as well as on linguistic and paleographic data, stood Conti Rossini’s thesis on its head. She argued that migration was “not from Yemen to Ethiopia, but rather in the opposite direction: from Ethiopia to Yemen”. - "Ethiopia’s Historic Ties with Yemen", By Richard Pankhurst
Descriptions of Askum/Ethiopia and its people:
"You'll come, then, to a land at the world's end where tribes of black people live, where the Fountains of the Sun gush and the River Aithiops flows. Follow that river's bank, till you come upon sheer waterfall plunging down from the Byline Hills, hills bubbling the sweet blessed waters of the Nile." - Aeschylus (525-456 BC)
Procopius of Caesarea describes Askum and its people and also their total domination over Yemen under the emperor [my own note/s will be in brackets, like this one]:
"At that time the idea occurred to the Emperor Justinian to ally himself with the Ethiopians and the Omeritae, in order to injure the Persians. . . About opposite the Omeritae on the opposite mainland dwell the Ethiopians [as opposed to Yemenis!] who are called Auxumitae, because their king resides in the city of Auxomis [Axum]. And the expanse of sea which lies between is crossed in a voyage of five days and nights, when a moderately favoring wind blows......At about the time of this war Ellestheaeus, the king of the Ethiopians, who was a Christian and a most devoted adherent of this faith, discovered that a number of the >Omeritae on the opposite mainland [modern Yemen] were oppressing the Christians there outrageously; many of these rascals were Jews, and many of them held in reverence the old faith which men of the present day call Hellenic [i.e., pagan]. He therefore collected a fleet of ships and an army and came against them, and he conquered them in battle and slew both the king and many of the >Omeritae. He then set up in his stead a Christian king, an Omeritae by birth, by name Esimiphaeus, and, after ordaining that he should pay a tribute to the Ethiopians every year, he returned to his home. In this Ethiopian army many slaves and all who were readily disposed to crime were quite unwilling to follow the king back, but were left behind and remained there because of their desire for the land of the >Omeritae; for it is an extremely goodly land. http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/nubia1.htmlPosts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:No thanks, I don't need you agreeing with me. I don't want the tarnish of your association. Your **** funks up my frankinscense & myrhh.
Great sage gets touchy! LOL Relax, oh great one I don't get personal in posts, Im not looking a friend nor do I have any intentions of f**king up your Frankenstein and myths about "Israelitesses" and what not. LOL
quote: Jewish-enslaved numbnut, if you're posting in this thread, then you've fallen for it.
Oh please jewboy, posting in here is not the same as you going toe to toe venting all your pent up anti-Semitism against this obvious bait. I mean just look at you foaming away at him back and forth, you're in your element man! LOL
quote: You get surprised all the time, because that's what lies do to a person; liars are unprepared to deal with reality.
WTF? Surprised? I don't get it. What the hell are you babbling about now jewboy?
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
WTF? Surprised? I don't get it. What the hell are you babbling about now jewboy?
Of course you don't get it in that blockheaded Jewish-enslaved numbskull of yours; numbskull and broken English are a bad combination.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
Speaking of 'white Tuareg' is as warped as speaking of "black nordic Swede". No such thing exists.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
The retarded fool known as Arabian Arab has now written 5 posts since failing to answer a simple question about a chart he himself makes claims about.
Wow Arabian Arab, are you really so stupid that you can't even answer a simple question?
You realize you are and embarrassment to "ArabianArabs", don't you?
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Rasol,
Your chart just proved what I have said. Only in the coast can you find Yemenis mixed
You really are a very dumb Arabian Arab who can't read charts, and can't understand them either....aren't you?
Here is the chart. Please tell us what lineages you find "only on the Arbian coast" .......>
^ Are all ArabianArabs, too stupid to answer questions, or is it just you??
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
Arabs are a mixture of various peoples, including Black Africans, such as the above.
There are no pure Arabs.
Arabs are not a pure people. They never were.
Arabs are and Afro-Asian people.
Their language comes from Africa.
Their male ancestry comes substanially from Neolithic Africa.
Without Black African forefathers, there is no such thing as Arab.
This is proven by language and by genetics.
Arabian Arab, you have already admitted that you are -ashamed-.
Out of shame, all you can do is dream up fairy tales of Mohammad and the 'white goat'.
All Arabs are mixed, mixed, mixed as -proven- in the chart above.
all.....of.....them.
Anyone who disagrees is free to offer some intelligent rebuttal of the linguistic and genetic evidence provided.
As for the laughable ArabianArab:
Your shame driven fantasies of a noble Arabian ancestry won't change this.
And since you are too stupid to understand the chart, you really have nothing to say about this, isn't that so?
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Stuff on that chart is as clear as the difference between night and day.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ I agree. Berber is a multi-ethnic African language group, not a skin color. There are Black tan and white Berber. That's why ArabArabians claim that there are no Black Berber is a lie.
Feel free to disagree, if you wish...
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: ^^I didn't realize that I did that [or its implicit disrespect] and made the appropriate edit. Thanx for catching it.. Though of course my intention was to express the view that I am not a teacher, thus, such doesn't apply. I learn more than I teach and correct the ignorant based on what I've learned. In my own humility, I'm nothing like Dr. Clarke and probably won't ever be.. That was the only point I was making though.
WTF! An American loving bourgeoisie wannabe negro claims he respects black nationalist Clarke?!?!?! Wants blacks to assimilate into fascist America and seems to delight in making fun of starving Africans and poor black countries that don't speak standard English??!?!?!? Oh my f**ing god, if this is not the height of hypocrisy from the negro lefty crowd I don't know what is! You schizoid anti-Garvey SELL OUT , you're just saying this to please greats sage as we have seen your views on Black Nationalism and Garvey already!
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
^^I guess.. I don't need to explain myself to some self-hating Jamaicanqueer who regularly refers to his supposed African brethren as "niggers", "negroes", and "slaves", and spends more time on here attacking Africans and people of African descent, than defending and representing them. In contrast, 99% of my posts on this board are aimed at defending, encouraging, and communicating with them, while admitting any mistakes I make, here, there, or in between [which mostly has little to do with what you accuse me of]. You sir, have no honor which is why no one respects you.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:^^I guess.. I don't need to explain myself to some self-hating Jamaican queer who regularly refers to his supposed African brethren as "niggers", "negroes", and "slaves", and spends more time on here attacking Africans and people of African descent, than defending and representing them. In contrast, 99% of my posts on this board are aimed at defending, encouraging, and communicating with them, while admitting any mistakes I make, here, there, or in between [which mostly has little to do with what you accuse me of]. You sir, have no honor which is why no one respects you
Give me a f**ing break, the opinions of Obamamanics and negro judeophiles means s** to me, boy. you say you respect Black Nationalist Clarke yet lapse into the typical snub middle class negro attitude all too often. You forget your comments re Black Nationalism as "psycho" nationalism and what not. You f***king low life hypocrite. LOL Now you try to make friends by paying respect to Clarke! Grow balls man! Don't try to please to get in the "in" crowd, be yourself: an american loving, anti-black nationalist NIGGER.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
I love Dr. John H. Clarke, and enjoyed reading a lot of his work. Just recently watched his debate with Mary Lefkowitz, that somebody posted on here just recently and in the same day watched a 2hr documentary on his life and legacy. I've cited some of his works [along with other African scholars] during my editing campaign on wikipedia where I've made many contributions. Why, given that would I allow some deranged weirdo to call me a hypocrite for stating my affection for the man, is beyond me.
quote:be yourself: an american loving, anti-black nationalist NIGGER.
But don't EVER criticize me again concerning my commitment to my fellow African brethren. The "evil white Jew" has obviously corrupted your mind to the point of no return. Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: I love Dr. John H. Clarke, and enjoyed reading a lot of his work. Just recently watched his debate with Mary Lefkowitz, that somebody posted on here just recently and in the same day watched a 2hr documentary on his life and legacy. I've cited some of his works [along with other African scholars] during my editing campaign on wikipedia where I've made many contributions. Why, given that would I allow some deranged weirdo to call me a hypocrite for stating my affection for the man, is beyond me.
quote:be yourself: an american loving, anti-black nationalist NIGGER.
But don't EVER criticize me again concerning my commitment to my fellow African brethren. The "evil white Jew" has obviously corrupted your mind to the point of no return.
Oh please Captain America don't telling me how you delight in reading him academically and watch him debate a deranged Jewess...oh Im not suppose to say that word around polite middle class negros like you, right? LOL
Please Captain America, when you say you read Clarke's works you sound just like some f**king curious paternalistic white liberal. LOL Face it man, you're a hypocrite as you disparage his politics - "psycho black identity politics" remember? Sorry but your anti-black third world and black nationalist comments can't be edited at this time, there for all to see.
Oh BTW Clarke, along with Ben, Martin etc are also called "anti-Semitic" too, by guess who, NEGRO JUDEOPHILES like yourself. so please Captain America, I've lived long enough and KNOW your kind, boy.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've never disparaged any of Clarke's views, only yours. You're way ahead of yourself if you're implying that you embody him in thought. I mean, that's disrespectful, you are nothing like he was. Him being called an "anti-semite too" means what? Your life is now parallel to his? OMFG, Please! You lowly peasant, you're not half as educated, half the man, or half as wise as him or many of the Blacks you criticize. You net dweeb, I'm sure he wouldn't use so loosely terms like "nigger" and "boy" against the very people he fought for, for one, or spend 24 hours a day attacking Black people on general principle. It sucks to be you, especially when you're not loved and hate yourself. Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Perhaps I am missing something, being that Egyptian culture was laid down between 12 and 10,000 B.C.E, where do these pale 'white' people supposedly come from? No Euro-handyguide has the answer for this.
How many times must it be explained to the illogical imbeciles, that Berber is just a language like Semetic, Cushitic etc.. But all belong to the big tree called Afrasian. Which in turn, originated in Sub-Saharan East Africa, as did E3b and anatomically modern humans!! Again, where is the confusion? Egypt did not just pop up out of nowhere, Egypt has a long past, as does the rest of Africa!!
World renowned linguist Christopher Ehret says:
"Furthermore, the archaeology of northern Africa DOES NOT SUPPORT DEMIC DIFFUSION of FARMING from the NEAR EAST. The evidence presented by Wetterstrom indicates that early African farmers in the Fayum initially INCORPORATED Near Eastern domesticates INTO an INDIGENOUS foraging strategy, and only OVER TIME developed a dependence on horticulture. This is INCONSISTENT with in-migrating farming settlers, who would have brought a more ABRUPT CHANGE in subsistence strategy. The same archaeological pattern occurs west of Egypt, where domestic animals and, later, grains were gradually adopted after 8000 yr B.P. into the established pre-agricultural Capsian culture, present across the northern Sahara since 10,000 yr B.P. From this continuity, it has been argued that the pre-food-production Capsian peoples spoke languages ancestral to the Berber and/or Chadic branches of Afroasiatic, placing the proto-Afroasiatic period distinctly before 10,000 yr B.P."
__________
Ancient Egyptian as an African Language, Egypt as an African Culture
Christopher Ehret Professor of History, African Studies Chair University of California at Los Angeles
Ancient Egyptian civilization was, in ways and to an extent usually not recognized, fundamentally African. The evidence of both language and culture reveals these African roots.
The origins of Egyptian ethnicity lay in the areas south of Egypt. The ancient Egyptian language belonged to the Afrasian family (also called Afroasiatic or, formerly, Hamito-Semitic). The speakers of the earliest Afrasian languages, according to recent studies, were a set of peoples whose lands between 15,000 and 13,000 B.C. stretched from Nubia in the west to far northern Somalia in the east. They supported themselves by gathering wild grains. The first elements of Egyptian culture were laid down two thousand years later, between 12,000 and 10,000 B.C., when some of these Afrasian communities expanded northward into Egypt, bringing with them a language directly ancestral to ancient Egyptian. They also introduced to Egypt the idea of using wild grains as food.
A new religion came with them as well. Its central tenet explains the often localized origins of later Egyptian gods: the earliest Afrasians were, properly speaking, neither monotheistic nor polytheistic. Instead, each local community, comprising a clan or a group of related clans, had its own distinct deity and centered its religious observances on that deity. This belief system persists today among several Afrasian peoples of far southwest Ethiopia. And as Biblical scholars have shown, Yahweh, god of the ancient Hebrews, an Afrasian people of the Semitic group, was originally also such a deity. The connection of many of Egypt's predynastic gods to particular localities is surely a modified version of this early Afrasian belief. Political unification in the late fourth millennium brought the Egyptian deities together in a new polytheistic system. But their local origins remain amply apparent in the records that have come down to us.
During the long era between about 10,000 and 6000 B.C., new kinds of southern influences diffused into Egypt. During these millennia, the Sahara had a wetter climate than it has today, with grassland or steppes in many areas that are now almost absolute desert. New wild animals, most notably the cow, spread widely in the eastern Sahara in this period.
___________
Still Evolving, Human Genes Tell New Story
Article Tools Sponsored By Published: March 7, 2006
Dr. Wells, of the National Geographic Society, said Dr. Pritchard's results were fascinating and would help anthropologists explain the immense diversity of human populations even though their genes are generally similar. The relative handful of selected genes that Dr. Pritchard's study has pinpointed may hold the answer, he said, adding, "Each gene has a story of some pressure we adapted to."
Dr. Wells is gathering DNA from across the globe to map in finer detail the genetic variation brought to light by the HapMap project.
Dr. Pritchard's list of selected genes also includes five that affect skin color. The selected versions of the genes occur solely in Europeans and are presumably responsible for pale skin. Anthropologists have generally assumed that the first modern humans to arrive in Europe some 45,000 years ago had the dark skin of their African origins, but soon acquired the paler skin needed to admit sunlight for vitamin D synthesis.
The finding of five skin genes selected 6,600 years ago could imply that Europeans acquired their pale skin much more recently. Or, the selected genes may have been a reinforcement of a process established earlier, Dr. Pritchard said.
The five genes show no sign of selective pressure in East Asians.
Because Chinese and Japanese are also pale, Dr. Pritchard said, evolution must have accomplished the same goal in those populations by working through different genes or by changing the same genes — but many thousands of years before, so that the signal of selection is no longer visible to the new test.
__________
'Out Of Africa' Theory Boost: Skull Dating Suggests Modern Humans Evolved In Africa
ScienceDaily (Jan. 12, 2007) — Reliably dated fossils are critical to understanding the course of human evolution. A human skull discovered over fifty years ago near the town of Hofmeyr, in the Eastern Cape Province of South Africa, is one such fossil. A study by an international team of scientists led by Frederick Grine of the Departments of Anthropology and Anatomical Sciences at Stony Brook University in New York published in Science magazine has dated the skull to 36,000 years ago. This skull provides critical corroboration of genetic evidence indicating that modern humans originated in sub-Saharan Africa and migrated about this time to colonize the Old World. (Science January 12, 2007)
"The Hofmeyr skull gives us the first insights into the morphology of such a sub-Saharan African population, which means the most recent common ancestor of all of us - wherever we come from," said Grine.
Although the skull was found over half a century ago, its significance became apparent only recently. A new approach to dating developed by Grine team member Richard Bailey and his colleagues at Oxford University allowed them to determined its age at just over 36,000 years ago by measuring the amount of radiation that had been absorbed by sand grains that filled the inside of the skull’s braincase. At this age, the skull fills a significant void in the human fossil record of sub-Saharan Africa from the period between about 70,000 and 15,000 years ago. During this critical period, the archaeological tradition known as the Later Stone Age, with its sophisticated stone and bone tools and artwork appears in sub-Saharan Africa, and anatomically modern people appear for the first time in Europe and western Asia with the equally complex Upper Paleolithic archeological tradition.
In order to establish the affinities of the Hofmeyr fossil, team member Katerina Harvati of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany, used 3-dimensional measurements of the skull known to differentiate recent human populations according to their geographic distributions and genetic relationships. She compared the Hofmeyr skull with contemporaneous Upper Paleolithic skulls from Europe and with the skulls of living humans from Eurasia and sub-Saharan Africa, including the Khoe-San (Bushmen). Because the Khoe-San are represented in the recent archeological record of South Africa, they were expected to have close resemblances to the South African fossil. Instead, the Hofmeyr skull is quite distinct from recent sub-Saharan Africans, including the Khoe-San, and has a very close affinity with the European Upper Paleolithic specimens.
The field of paleoanthropology is known for its hotly contested debates, and one that has raged for years concerns the evolutionary origin of modern people. A number of genetic studies (especially those on the mitochondrial DNA) of living people indicate that modern humans evolved in sub-Saharan Africa and then left between 65,000 and 25,000 years ago to colonize the Old World. However, other genetic studies (generally on nuclear DNA) argue against this African origin and exodus model. Instead, they suggest that archaic non-African groups, such as the Neandertals, made significant contributions to the genomes of modern humans in Eurasia. Until now, the lack of human fossils of appropriate antiquity from sub-Saharan Africa has meant that these competing genetic models of human evolution could not be tested by paleontological evidence.
The skull from Hofmeyr has changed that. The surprising similarity between a fossil skull from the southernmost tip of Africa and similarly ancient skulls from Europe is in agreement with the genetics-based "Out of Africa" theory, which predicts that humans like those that inhabited Eurasia in the Upper Paleolithic should be found in sub-Saharan Africa around 36,000 years ago. The skull from South Africa provides the first fossil evidence in support of this prediction.
Reference: F.E. Grine, R.M. Bailey, K. Harvati, R.P. Nathan, A.G. Morris, G.M. Henderson, I. Ribot, A.W.G. Pike. Late Pleistocene Human Skull from Hofmeyr, South Africa and Modern Human Origins. Science, 12. January 2007
____________
Body proportions in Late Pleistocene Europe and modern human origins*1
Body proportions covary with climate, apparently as the result of climatic selection. Ontogenetic research and migrant studies have demonstrated that body proportions are largely genetically controlled and are under low selective rates; thus studies of body form can provide evidence for evolutionarily short-term dispersals and/or gene flow. Following these observations, competing models of modern human origins yield different predictions concerning body proportion shifts in Late Pleistocene Europe. Replacement predicts that the earliest modern Europeans will possess “tropical” body proportions (assuming Africa is the center of origin), while Regional Continuity permits only minor shifts in body shape, due to climatic change and/or improved cultural buffering. This study tests these predictions via analyses of osteometric data reflective of trunk height and breadth, limb proportions and relative body mass for samples of Early Upper Paleolithic (EUP), Late Upper Paleolithic (LUP) and Mesolithic (MES) humans and 13 recent African and European populations. Results reveal a clear tendency for the EUP sample to cluster with recent Africans, while LUP and MES samples cluster with recent Europeans. These results refute the hypothesis of local continuity in Europe, and are consistent with an interpretation of elevated gene flow (and population dispersal?) from Africa, followed by subsequent climatic adaptation to colder conditions. These data do not, however, preclude the possibility of some (albeit small) contribution of genes from Neandertals to succeeding populations, as is postulated in Bräuer’s “Afro-European Sapiens” model.
___________
Brachial and crural indices of European Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic humans
Trenton W. Holliday
Department of Anthropology, Tulane University, New Orleans, Louisiana, 70118, U.S.A.f1
Among recent humans brachial and crural indices are positively correlated with mean annual temperature, such that high indices are found in tropical groups. However, despite inhabiting glacial Europe, the Upper Paleolithic Europeans possessed high indices, prompting Trinkaus (1981) to argue for gene flow from warmer regions associated with modern human emergence in Europe. In contrast, Frayeret al. (1993) point out that Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic Europeans shouldnotexhibit tropically-adapted limb proportions, since, even assuming replacement, their ancestors had experienced cold stress in glacial Europe for at least 12 millennia.
This study investigates three questions tied to the brachial and crural indices among Late Pleistocene and recent humans. First, which limb segments (either proximal or distal) are primarily responsible for variation in brachial and crural indices? Second, are these indices reflective ofoveralllimb elongation? And finally, do the Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic Europeans retain relatively and/or absolutely long limbs? Results indicate that in the lower limb, the distal limb segment contributes most of the variability to intralimb proportions, while in the upper limb the proximal and distal limb segments appear to be equally variable. Additionally, brachial and crural indices do not appear to be a good measure of overall limb length, and thus, while the Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic humans have significantly higher (i.e., tropically-adapted) brachial and crural indices than do recent Europeans, they also have shorter (i.e., cold-adapted) limbs. The somewhat paradoxical retention of “tropical” indices in the context of more “cold-adapted” limb length is best explained as evidence for Replacement in the European Late Pleistocene, followed by gradual cold adaptation in glacial Europe.
________
Gough's Cave 1 (Somerset, England): an assessment of body size and shape TRENTON W. HOLLIDAY a1 and STEVEN E. CHURCHILL a2 a1 Department of Anthropology, Tulane University.
Stature, body mass, and body proportions are evaluated for the Cheddar Man (Gough's Cave 1) skeleton. Like many of his Mesolithic contemporaries, Gough's Cave 1 evinces relatively short estimated stature (ca. 166.2 cm [5′ 5′]) and low body mass (ca. 66 kg [146 lbs]). In body shape, he is similar to recent Europeans for most proportional indices. He differs, however, from most recent Europeans in his high crural index and tibial length/trunk height indices. Thus, while Gough's Cave 1 is characterized by a total morphological pattern considered ‘cold-adapted’, these latter two traits may be interpreted as evidence of a large African role in the origins of anatomically modern Europeans.
So, now again, exactly where do these supposed 'white' people come into the scene?
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
^ In minds of punked Arabs, regarded as less than human by whites...humiliated by jews, confused by their own pseudo religious leaders and their savagely backwords and mysogynistic misinterpretations of the Koran..... whose sole form of psychological compensation is to imagine themselves better than Africans.
ArabArabian is a lost soul.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
^ In minds of punked Arabs, regarded as less than human by whites...humiliated by jews, confused by their own pseudo religious leaders and their savagely backwords and mysogynistic misinterpretations of the Koran..... whose sole form of psychological compensation is to imagine themselves better than Africans.
ArabArabian is a lost soul.
It would seem so, he is obviously delusional, and envious. I mean, what's the point of acting as if you are an intellectual, but in turn blatantly ignore scientific facts? These A-rabs and Euros are extremely sensitive towards 'race', something that scientifically doesn't even exist. It's pretty sad.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: I've never disparaged any of Clarke's views, only yours. You're way ahead of yourself if you're implying that you embody him in thought. I mean, that's disrespectful, you are nothing like he was. Him being called an "anti-semite too" means what? Your life is now parallel to his? OMFG, Please! You lowly peasant, you're not half as educated, half the man, or half as wise as him or many of the Blacks you criticize. You net dweeb, I'm sure he wouldn't use so loosely terms like "nigger" and "boy" against the very people he fought for, for one, or spend 24 hours a day attacking Black people on general principle. It sucks to be you, especially when you're not loved and hate yourself.
Come on now Captain America, don't try to rescue yourself from your anti-Garvey posts. You weren't attacking just me, but Garveyism and black nationalism, and that is Clarke! And when you say he wouldn't use the term nigger for anti-Garvey sell outs like you, again you don't know what the hell you are talking about since he is only an academic curiosity to you. Stop now before you expose yourself more.
quote: This is the 'six-day-war' of Egyptsearch threads - a monument to arab incompetence. [exposing arab incompetence is one of the reasons for jew-hate] And akoben knows it, hence his increasingly desparate rhetoric.
Poor you. You don't seem to realsie that such an example is problematic for two reaosns 1) Israel was recently defeated not by combined Arab army but a non-state actor. So "mighty" Israel image is now outdated. 2) when you refer to the colonial defeat of Arab countires by Apartheid Israel as "Arab incompetence", indirectly, youre also saying black Africans are also imcompetent, since Aparthied Israel's domiannce in ME is analagous to that of Aparthied South Africa durng the cold war. Like Apartheid Israel, South Africa too had nukes and aid from USA, was also surrounded by black countries that could not defeat her militarily, didn't even try to. Only when cold war ended and the west found a partner in sell-out mandela did she impose sanctions on SA that south Africa was ultimatley "defeated" – some say still is not!
So if yu want to genralise about "Arab incompetence" that's probably not a good example. Sane people can find other things to critise them for in a more intellegent manner (Islamism, anti-black racism/colorism, etc) But you and Asuarisnstein are deranged irrational anti-Arabs , so it is beyond you two. LOL
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
It hurts to be you, nagging Jewish-enslaved chi chi buay; being the slave of Jewish folks and the ass-kissing punk of an ArabianArab moron who talks down to you, his poodle -- "the Jewish-enslaved girlybuay", as a civilization-stealing "negroid" with no accomplishments. You are one beat down sick puppy, buay.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Akoben wrote: when you refer to the colonial defeat of Arab countires by Apartheid Israel as "Arab incompetence", indirectly, youre also saying black Africans are also imcompetent, since Aparthied Israel's domiannce in ME is analagous to that of Aparthied South Africa durng the cold war. Like Apartheid Israel, South Africa too had nukes and aid from USA, was also surrounded by black countries that could not defeat her militarily, didn't even try to. Only when cold war ended and the west found a partner in sell-out mandela did she impose sanctions on SA that south Africa was ultimatley "defeated" – some say still is not!
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Though like I said, the intent of the riddle fell short for reasons exemplified. Now it's not about ignorance, but intelligence. Way to move the goal post and insult people in the process.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic