posted
Education is important, but at the end of the day it is about POWER. Many of the slaves in Mauretania are EDUCATED and maintaining the ancient literary traditions of the Almoravids and other Moorish groups. Education means squat without power. At the end of the day, it is all about power. With power you can do for yourself and not have to depend on anyone else to feel sorry for you or look out for you. With power you don't have to beg and perform all sorts of ridiculous contusions to be accepted as a "normal" human. But the point is that slavery, oppression and racism are about POWER, not race. It is about MAINTAINING the power of the oppressor at the detriment of the oppressed. So until you get power, slavery and oppression will continue in some form or another.
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I beg to differ Doug. I think EDUCATION is POWER.
If those men really are educated and they are still slaves then perhaps their education is faulty or outdated.
Education empowers and if it doesn't there's something wrong.
PUT AN APPROPRIATELY EDUCATED MAN *ANYWHERE* ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH ... NOT ONLY WILL HE NOT STARVE, HE WILL TRIPPLE HIS WORTH...
POWER COMES FROM APPLYING EDUCATION. AND NATIONAL POWER COMES FROM A "CRITICAL MASS" OF EDUCATED PEOPLE IN THAT NATION TAKING CONTROL OF THAT NATION.
FIRST THINGS FIRST. THAT MEANS EDUCATION FIRST. IS IT A WONDER THAT A COUNTRY LIKE NIGERIA HAS HAD WESTERN MIS-EDUCATED "NATIVE" LEADERS SINCE 1960 YET THESE IDIOTS CAN'T TURN AROUND OUR FATE???
PUT SOMEONE LIKE HAKI MADHUBUTI OR ANY OF THE WELL EDUCATED PAN-AFRICANIST BLACKS IN POWER IN A COUNTRY LIKE NIGERIA. I'LL BE SINGING VICTORY SONGS WITHIN A DECADE.
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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Folks, in order to understand Doug, you need to know that he is a black american negro.
Black american negroes are taught that the true negro is a reality and that his only history, culture, and place on this planet is that of a lowly wretched slave to all other life forms on this planet. They don't have what it takes to see through white boy roy's mind sodomy.
Hence this explains the mentality and stupidity of Doug.
Unfortunately many black american negroes are easily manipulated by white people.
I believe in Doug's case, the reason is simply that he is not an intelligent man.
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^ And WHO ARE YOU to decide who is or isn't intelligent.
The last time I checked you were working as a business analyst for £35,000/year before the GOVT. bites of their 30%+ in taxes. You poor paloured pauper.
You can't even make it as a white man within a "white supremacist" system. There is none more pathetic than you.
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: It does not seek to destroy or eradicate Arabic speakers or Islam, but the point is that Arabic and Islam ARE destroying Africa. Look at Sudan. Look at Mauritania. Therefore, before ANY United States of Africa can be established, SUCH THINGS as Arabic genocide and Arab slavery against African blacks MUST CEASE.
Firstly how on earth is 'Arabic' destroying Africa? Do you mean because it is a language with the most speakers in the continent?? It is an afro-asiatic language, it has every right to be there just as Amharic does. Please explain how it is destroying Africa.
You bring up the Sudan issue, you say Arab slavery against 'African blacks' - are you remotely aware that the Janjaweed - is comprised of nomadic Arabic-speaking African tribes - that is to say Black Arabs/Afro-Arabs.
Of course as I said before- one is Arab by the language he speaks not the colour of his skin. But these ones in particular are still 'Black' and still 'African'- They are not Middle-Eastern Arabs. Sudanese Arabs are descendants from the ancient Nubians - and became 'arabised' with the intermarriages with arabs and introduction of Islam.
The conflict is not to do with Islam it is more to do with ethnic sectarianism. Black Arabs and the non Arabic speaking Blacks.
Images of janjaweed militia (yes they are black and african)
Yes they are still Arabic speaking , but my point is why distinguish them from 'African Blacks' which is incorrect to do so I believe - as you can clearly see they are black africans.
Having said that I agree, ANY genocide must stop, no matter who is perpetrating it.
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Whether they be black "arabs" or actual Arabs, the point is that Arab identity is FOREIGN to Africa and the use of such identity to OPPRESS Africa must stop. Period.
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Education and power are two different things. A person in power can have NO eduction and still have power. Meanwhile a person with A LOT of education can have NONE, NO MATTER what they WOULD LIKE to do with it.
Power means the ability to make things happen.
Education is important, but without power it is meaningless.
The only reason education is powerful is because it can embolden those who have been sleep to take power for themselves. But at the end of the day, education by itself does not give you power.
Case in point. There are PLENTY of educated blacks in the U.S. and Europe along with PLENTY of educated blacks in Africa as well. But how many of them have the POWER to create REAL change?
To have power means to know how power operates and be willing to USE that knowledge to make things happen. Just having an education does not guarantee that. In fact, ambition is more important than education, because with ambition you can gain more power than any educated person with NO ambition.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Education and power are two different things. A person in power can have NO eduction and still have power. Meanwhile a person with A LOT of education can have NONE, NO MATTER what they WOULD LIKE to do with it.
Power means the ability to make things happen.
Education is important, but without power it is meaningless.
The only reason education is powerful is because it can embolden those who have been sleep to take power for themselves. But at the end of the day, education by itself does not give you power.
Case in point. There are PLENTY of educated blacks in the U.S. and Europe along with PLENTY of educated blacks in Africa as well. But how many of them have the POWER to create REAL change?
To have power means to know how power operates and be willing to USE that knowledge to make things happen. Just having an education does not guarantee that. In fact, ambition is more important than education, because with ambition you can gain more power than any educated person with NO ambition.
I don't think we share the same defintion of Education.
For instance, one with no ambition is not well Educated in my definition.
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
I am still waiting for sportsbilly's reply to my post in response to his quote about getting rid of Arabs from Africa...
In the meantime, Doug - since you are stating that Arab identity is 'foreign' to Africa (Even though Arab presence in Africa dates back to pre-Islamic times) Are you also proposing to get rid of Arabs as sportsbilly so bluntly put it?
Arab immigration from Southwest Asia into East Africa goes back to pre-Islamic times. At the beginning of the 5th century B.C., Sabaen (south Arabian) armies settled in the Ethiopian highlands.1 The resulting intermingling of Sabaen and Ethiopian cultures produced the Axum kingdom, which became a powerful empire. 2 The term Abyssinia itself is taken from the Habashan, a powerful southwestern Arabian family which settled in Ethiopia.3 A 1st century B.C. Greek source Periplus of the Erythraen Sea reports large ships going to the East African coast manned by "Arab captains and agents who are familiar with the natives and intermarry with them, and who know the whole coast and understand the language."4
Wars in Arabia in the 7th and 8th centuries sent a large influx of Arab refugees from Arabia and the Persian Gulf to African coastal cities of Somalia, Kenya, and Tanzania.5 Out of this intermingling of Arabs and black Africans was born the Swahili - a Bantu-based Arabized culture. By the 10th century, Arabs were living as far south as Sofala.6 Immigrants from Yemen and Hadramaut came to East Africa in the 13th and 14th century.7 Ibn Battuta, who visited the Swahili coast in 1331 CE, wrote of Mogadishu, then a Swahili town, that Swahili businessmen each had personal ties with Asian merchants, whom they entertained and accommodated in their own houses.8
Until the 19th century, Arabs tended to integrate into the local culture and had relatively little impact on local African traditions.9 But some new imports from Arab culture became central to East African life. Apparently, East Africans were using Arabic script at least by the 9th century. According to Chinese official records of the Zenjistan ambassadors in 9th century China, (Persian Zenj from Arabic Zanj for the people of the East African coast) the Zenjistan language was "like Arabic".10 Quite likely, when asked by the Chinese to write some words, the East African ambassadors wrote in Arabic script.11
The Swahili language is Bantu with a high proportion of Arab loan words.12 The word "Swahili" itself is derived from the Arabic word for "coast". The Swahilis wrote their language in Arabic script for centuries before switching to the Roman script recently.13
Sultans of Omani descent built Zanzibar City in the 18th and 19th centuries.14 (now part of Tanzania) Between 1880 and 1950, Immigrants from Arabia, from Aden and Hadramaut in particular, flocked to East Africa.15 These newcomers brought with them changes in fashion, architectural styles and vocabulary.16 Hadrahmi merchants began to dominate the Swahili trade with southern Arabia.17 Other Arabs of lower economic classes worked in Zanzibar City and Mombasa as hawkers, coffee sellers and unskilled laborers.18 Many died in the Zanzibar revolution of 1964, and the remaining have returned to Oman.19 Some East Africans of Arab-black descent still maintain family ties in Asia. These are descended from relatively recent immigrants and have contact with relatives in Arab countries. Many Swahili have fairly recent Omani ancestors and have used this link to migrate to well-paid posts in Oman.20
Notes: 1)Runoko Rashidi, "Africans in Early Asian Civilizations: An Overview", African Presence in Early Asia, ed. Runoko Rashidi, p. 32
2)Runoko Rashidi, "Africans in Early Asian Civilizations: An Overview", African Presence in Early Asia, ed. Runoko Rashidi, p. 32
3)Runoko Rashidi, "Africans in Early Asian Civilizations: An Overview", African Presence in Early Asia, ed. Runoko Rashidi, p. 32
4)Basil Davidson, The Lost Cities of Africa, p. 178
5)Basil Davidson, p. 178 6)Basil Davidson, p. 179
7)James De V. Allen, Swahili Origins, p. 193
8)John Middleton, The World of the Swahili, p. 22
9)James De V. Allen, p. 243 10)James De V. Allen, p. 137 11)James De V. Allen, p. 137
12)John Middleton, p. xii 13)John Middleton, p. 2 14)John Middleton, p. 80
15)James De V. Allen, p. 240 16)James De V. Allen, p. 243
17)John Middleton, p. 53 18)John Middleton, p. 223 19)John Middleton, p. 223 20)John Middleton, The World of the Swahili, p. 186
How do you define foreign? how long does one have to settle and habitualise, reproduce generations and generations, leave ones culture and language as a mark till one is considered a native of the land?
Is 'African' culture/identity foreign to Brazil? it is so evident in brazilian culture - from music to religious beliefs and superstitions - its the country with the largest number of african blacks outside of Africa itself... is African influence and culture/identity foreign to the Carribean - even though they are not 'natives' of those islands??
The article mentions how Swahili has many loan words from Arabic, even the name Swahili is from Arabic. The language was written in Arabic script for centuries. And not only that, as I have stressed before, Arabic today is the most spoken language in Africa. So explain to me how Arab identity is foreign to the continent which is home to the 3 largest arabic speaking populations (Egypt, Algeria and Morocco) ?????
Posts: 121 | From: www.egyptianliving.com | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by EgyptianLiving*Com: I am still waiting for sportsbilly's reply to my post in response to his quote about getting rid of Arabs from Africa...
In the meantime, Doug - since you are stating that Arab identity is 'foreign' to Africa (Even though Arab presence in Africa dates back to pre-Islamic times) Are you also proposing to get rid of Arabs as sportsbilly so bluntly put it?
Arab immigration from Southwest Asia into East Africa goes back to pre-Islamic times. At the beginning of the 5th century B.C., Sabaen (south Arabian) armies settled in the Ethiopian highlands.1 The resulting intermingling of Sabaen and Ethiopian cultures produced the Axum kingdom, which became a powerful empire. 2 The term Abyssinia itself is taken from the Habashan, a powerful southwestern Arabian family which settled in Ethiopia.3 A 1st century B.C. Greek source Periplus of the Erythraen Sea reports large ships going to the East African coast manned by "Arab captains and agents who are familiar with the natives and intermarry with them, and who know the whole coast and understand the language."4
Wars in Arabia in the 7th and 8th centuries sent a large influx of Arab refugees from Arabia and the Persian Gulf to African coastal cities of Somalia, Kenya, and Tanzania.5 Out of this intermingling of Arabs and black Africans was born the Swahili - a Bantu-based Arabized culture. By the 10th century, Arabs were living as far south as Sofala.6 Immigrants from Yemen and Hadramaut came to East Africa in the 13th and 14th century.7 Ibn Battuta, who visited the Swahili coast in 1331 CE, wrote of Mogadishu, then a Swahili town, that Swahili businessmen each had personal ties with Asian merchants, whom they entertained and accommodated in their own houses.8
Until the 19th century, Arabs tended to integrate into the local culture and had relatively little impact on local African traditions.9 But some new imports from Arab culture became central to East African life. Apparently, East Africans were using Arabic script at least by the 9th century. According to Chinese official records of the Zenjistan ambassadors in 9th century China, (Persian Zenj from Arabic Zanj for the people of the East African coast) the Zenjistan language was "like Arabic".10 Quite likely, when asked by the Chinese to write some words, the East African ambassadors wrote in Arabic script.11
The Swahili language is Bantu with a high proportion of Arab loan words.12 The word "Swahili" itself is derived from the Arabic word for "coast". The Swahilis wrote their language in Arabic script for centuries before switching to the Roman script recently.13
Sultans of Omani descent built Zanzibar City in the 18th and 19th centuries.14 (now part of Tanzania) Between 1880 and 1950, Immigrants from Arabia, from Aden and Hadramaut in particular, flocked to East Africa.15 These newcomers brought with them changes in fashion, architectural styles and vocabulary.16 Hadrahmi merchants began to dominate the Swahili trade with southern Arabia.17 Other Arabs of lower economic classes worked in Zanzibar City and Mombasa as hawkers, coffee sellers and unskilled laborers.18 Many died in the Zanzibar revolution of 1964, and the remaining have returned to Oman.19 Some East Africans of Arab-black descent still maintain family ties in Asia. These are descended from relatively recent immigrants and have contact with relatives in Arab countries. Many Swahili have fairly recent Omani ancestors and have used this link to migrate to well-paid posts in Oman.20
Notes: 1)Runoko Rashidi, "Africans in Early Asian Civilizations: An Overview", African Presence in Early Asia, ed. Runoko Rashidi, p. 32
2)Runoko Rashidi, "Africans in Early Asian Civilizations: An Overview", African Presence in Early Asia, ed. Runoko Rashidi, p. 32
3)Runoko Rashidi, "Africans in Early Asian Civilizations: An Overview", African Presence in Early Asia, ed. Runoko Rashidi, p. 32
4)Basil Davidson, The Lost Cities of Africa, p. 178
5)Basil Davidson, p. 178 6)Basil Davidson, p. 179
7)James De V. Allen, Swahili Origins, p. 193
8)John Middleton, The World of the Swahili, p. 22
9)James De V. Allen, p. 243 10)James De V. Allen, p. 137 11)James De V. Allen, p. 137
12)John Middleton, p. xii 13)John Middleton, p. 2 14)John Middleton, p. 80
15)James De V. Allen, p. 240 16)James De V. Allen, p. 243
17)John Middleton, p. 53 18)John Middleton, p. 223 19)John Middleton, p. 223 20)John Middleton, The World of the Swahili, p. 186
How do you define foreign? how long does one have to settle and habitualise, reproduce generations and generations, leave ones culture and language as a mark till one is considered a native of the land?
Is 'African' culture/identity foreign to Brazil? it is so evident in brazilian culture - from music to religious beliefs and superstitions - its the country with the largest number of african blacks outside of Africa itself... is African influence and culture/identity foreign to the Carribean - even though they are not 'natives' of those islands??
The article mentions how Swahili has many loan words from Arabic, even the name Swahili is from Arabic. The language was written in Arabic script for centuries. And not only that, as I have stressed before, Arabic today is the most spoken language in Africa. So explain to me how Arab identity is foreign to the continent which is home to the 3 largest arabic speaking populations (Egypt, Algeria and Morocco) ?????
What did I say? Why do I have to repeat myself? And yes "arabs" or asiatics have been in Africa since pre Islamic times..... as INVADERS.. So what are you saying?
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Actually that is wrong not exclusively invaders - even since pre-islamic times, Arabs relied heavily on trade too with their neighbours. Many more came there to take refuge from the wars in the penensula and settled. Even many of the first 'Muslim' Arabs came to Africa to seek refuge from persecution at the hands of the pagan Makkans.
And what did you say you ask? You said that Arab identity is foreign to Africa - and I have already shown you why that is incorrect-see previous post. Furthermore the language is part of the Afro-Asiatic family. It shares many root words with say, Amharic.
Also, to make an important point - against an earlier quote by you - when you not only said Arabic but also Islam is destroying Africa.
What then do you have to say in regards to the fact that Islam is the fastest growing religion amongst African Americans? (This does NOT include N.O.I as most AA Muslims follow mainstream SUNNI Islam.)Why is it growing so much there? What makes it so appealing? I think one factor, is that it is clear cut within Islamic teachings that no race is superior to another, Islam gives the African American equality and brotherhood with fellow man.
And what better example can I bring up other than that of Malik Shabazz (Malcolm X) one of the most influential African American's in history. Who said:
"America needs to understand Islam, because this is the one religion that erases from its society the race problem. Throughout my travels in the Muslim world, I have met, talked to, and even eaten with people who in America would have been considered white, but the white attitude was removed from their minds by the religion of Islam. I have never before seen sincere and true brotherhood practiced by all together, irrespective of their color."
"I think you'll find, brother, that there are Muslims everywhere. Wherever you find militancy today among so-called Negroes, watch real closely. You're liable to be looking at a Muslim."
So if Islam is destroying the motherland - why is it then that there are so many African American Muslims ? - I think it is related to bring up AA's in a discussion about Africa - as their perspectives are usually brought up in many Africa- related threads.
Muslim American Ethnicity
source:CAIR
In what way is Islam 'destroying' Africa?
Posts: 121 | From: www.egyptianliving.com | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by EgyptianLiving*Com: Actually that is wrong not exclusively invaders - even since pre-islamic times, Arabs relied heavily on trade too with their neighbours. Many more came there to take refuge from the wars in the penensula and settled. Even many of the first 'Muslim' Arabs came to Africa to seek refuge from persecution at the hands of the pagan Makkans.
And what did you say you ask? You said that Arab identity is foreign to Africa - and I have already shown you why that is incorrect-see previous post. Furthermore the language is part of the Afro-Asiatic family. It shares many root words with say, Amharic.
Also, to make an important point - against an earlier quote by you - when you not only said Arabic but also Islam is destroying Africa.
What then do you have to say in regards to the fact that Islam is the fastest growing religion amongst African Americans? (This does NOT include N.O.I as most AA Muslims follow mainstream SUNNI Islam.)Why is it growing so much there? What makes it so appealing? I think one factor, is that it is clear cut within Islamic teachings that no race is superior to another, Islam gives the African American equality and brotherhood with fellow man.
And what better example can I bring up other than that of Malik Shabazz (Malcolm X) one of the most influential African American's in history. Who said:
"America needs to understand Islam, because this is the one religion that erases from its society the race problem. Throughout my travels in the Muslim world, I have met, talked to, and even eaten with people who in America would have been considered white, but the white attitude was removed from their minds by the religion of Islam. I have never before seen sincere and true brotherhood practiced by all together, irrespective of their color."
"I think you'll find, brother, that there are Muslims everywhere. Wherever you find militancy today among so-called Negroes, watch real closely. You're liable to be looking at a Muslim."
So if Islam is destroying the motherland - why is it then that there are so many African American Muslims ? - I think it is related to bring up AA's in a discussion about Africa - as their perspectives are usually brought up in many Africa- related threads.
Muslim American Ethnicity
source:CAIR
In what way is Islam 'destroying' Africa?
Simple point. Show me how Arabs originate in Africa. They do not. No amount of fairy tale spinning will change this. Do some research and read your history books about the Arab invasions and conquests of Africa. Read about the Asiatic invasions of Egypt. Read about the Arab subjugation of Mauritania. Read about the Arab domination of Algeria and Morocco. Read about the Berber resistence to Arab domination. Read about the ancient Egyptian resistence to Asiatic incursions. "Arabs" did not come to Africa simply as travellers. They came as warriors and conquerors.
It does not matter how many African Americans convert to Islam, what I said will still be true. Until the Arab inspired violence against and oppression of black Africans ceases, the United States of Africa cannot succeed. But that is not the only violence against Africans that needs to stop. African against African violence has to stop in order for a United States of Africa to succeed, no matter who perpetrates it or why. And not only that, but government officials must become MORE CONCERNED about their own people in order for such a unification to product tangible results. Just uniting Africa under the same neocolonial puppets will not change jack. When Nkrumah suggested this concept, he was speaking of truly progressive governments joining together to liberate Africa from foreign control and oppression. He was not joining these governments together to make it easier for sell out leaders to give away more of Africa's wealth.
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quote:Simple point. Show me how Arabs originate in Africa. They do not. No amount of fairy tale spinning will change this. Do some research and read your history books about the Arab invasions and conquests of Africa. Read about the Asiatic invasions of Egypt. Read about the Arab subjugation of Mauritania. Read about the Arab domination of Algeria and Morocco. Read about the Berber resistence to Arab domination. Read about the ancient Egyptian resistence to Asiatic incursions. "Arabs" did not come to Africa simply as travellers. They came as warriors and conquerors.
...and sometimes as beggers and squatters, who would later evict the original tenants from their own homes.
wolves in sheeps clothing.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Simple point. Show me how Arabs originate in Africa. They do not. No amount of fairy tale spinning will change this. Do some research and read your history books about the Arab invasions and conquests of Africa. Read about the Asiatic invasions of Egypt. Read about the Arab subjugation of Mauritania. Read about the Arab domination of Algeria and Morocco. Read about the Berber resistence to Arab domination. Read about the ancient Egyptian resistence to Asiatic incursions. "Arabs" did not come to Africa simply as travellers. They came as warriors and conquerors. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I said the Arab identity is not foreign to the African continent, that is what I said, and I explained why already. And since you are fixated on Black Africans in this point - the early Islamic-Arab invasions were aimed at the weakening Byzantine Empire - which occupied pretty much all of coastal North Africa - including Egypt. Many inhabitants even saw the new conquerers as liberators as they had long been discriminated by the Byzantines.
And I didn't say they originated IN Africa, I said the Arab identity in the continent is not foreign. However, important to note the strong ties Arabs do actually have - if you consider that Hajar, the mother to Ishmael who is said to be the father to the Arabs - was from Egypt.
I am not denying Arab conquest of much of Africa-yet I am not saying that is the ONLY way they came. And I disagree with "...and sometimes as beggers and squatters, who would later evict the original tenants from their own homes."
Because many Arabs who came over intermarried and settled - this is especially the case with East Africa.
posted
The Arab invasions of Africa were to expand the territories of Islam and Arabs. It wasn't simply a war against the Byzantines. You keep trying to put the history of Arab intervention in Africa into a certain light, which attempts to downplay anything bad and pretend Arabs are equally Africans as much as black Africans. Dude, that is purely stupid nonsense talk.
The Arab intermarriages in East Africa and North Africa are part of the reason for the confusion and conflict to begin with, because many of these societies stress Arab ancestry, not Islamic belief, as the basis for attaining access to power. Therefore, this puts Arab, NON AFRICAN, ancestry over being indigenous blacks and guarantees Arabs access to power. This is the reason for the many Berber revolts and expulsions in North Africa and Al Andalus. This is the reason for the rise of Berber nationalism in Northern Africa. Likewise, this causes blacks with very little Arab ancestry to claim Arab identity even when they are coal black, as in the case of Sudan. And it is these so-called Arabs who are causing a lot of the damage in Sudan.
Nobody said Arabs are all of the problem in Africa, but Arab nationalism and identity has extended to a large part of North Africa as the "Arab World", which is silly to begin with. But such an identification with parts of Africa as the "Arab world" only reinforces and expands the territorial conquests and expansion of Arab identity that DOWNPLAYS and SUBJUGATES the fact that these areas are part of AFRICA and the AFRICAN world.
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Obviously it was for the expansion of the Caliphate - but the primary invasions of Africa were TARGETED at the then occuyping Byzantine forces - thats all I was saying..
And I can see what you are saying about the berber revolts etc, but I don't think such things is the 'cause' of blacks to claim Arab identity - even when they are 'coal black' because to claim being Arab it is not neccessarily in terms of genealogy but also linguistics - just as classify one as 'latino' you get many colours - but they speak a common language.
I don't see why North Africa can't be both part of the African continent and the 'Arab world' - because this is primarily due to linguistics - there is no arab empire or single arab union - The Arabs are as divided as the African states.
And many analysts can see a shift from secular 'Arab nationalsim' - which was a big thing in the days of Abdel Nasser and the arab-israeli wars- to this pan-islamism that is so prevalent in the Muslim world at large today. Arab nationalism has clearly failed and hasn't gotten the Arab nations anywhere - which is why Sadat done the unthinkable and visited Israel- further isolating Egypt from the Arab world. Ghaddafi as I said is moving away from pan-arabism to this United African idea - whether it is a reality or not. Political Islam is the most potent force in these times - Arab nationalism is finished.
But it is one thing to complain and say all this behaviour needs to stop -which I agree, must stop.
But what exactly are you suggesting? apart from saying being educated AND having power, etc - what are you suggesting what action be done to prevent - what you see as 'Arabisation' or 'Islamisation' of Africa? Islam is roughly 60% of the continent and Arabic has the most speakers in the continet.
posted
What did I say? I think what I said speaks for itself. If you choose to read into what I said more than what is there that is your problem.
The point is that there are historically many issues that have divided Africa and Arab nationalism is but one of them. Ending all the issues which divide Africa is supposed to be the point of the United States of Africa to begin with. But you can't succeed in such an endeavor if you don't understand the history of these issues and why they persist. And you certainly cannot address something that you pretend does not exist.
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Depaite the fact that there has historically a phenomenon called "Arab expansionism"--whereby the culture, religion and population settlements from the Arabian peninsula have extended into other areas--the results are to be pondered.
Arabs constitute less than 1% of the population of Asia and less than 1% of the population of Europe(including Russia).
In terms of religious affiliation the Islamic faith is adhered to by approximately 3% of Europeans and some 16% of Asia. As an exmaple of the impact of cultural Arabism in Asia consider the ongoing hostilities and animosities between Muslims and Hindus in India and its hinterlands of Pakistan and Bangladesh.
The Americas, Australasia and other areas of European settlement are in the same category as Europe proper.
In Africa self-defined "Arabs" are some 16% of Africa's population while the Islamic faith is adhered to by some 45% of the population.
Thus it seems that Africa seems to have been more accomodating of Arab expansionism in terms of cultural transformation and religion than other areas.
Combine Arabism with Francophonie, Anglophonie, Lusitaphonie, Diaspora African, Continental African, "White" African[which many Africans now accept], black African, Sub-Saharan African, etc. and here you have a whole people with divided souls and lots of personality complexes and problems.
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Combine Arabism with Francophonie, Anglophonie, Lusitaphonie, Diaspora African, Continental African, "White" African[which many Africans now accept], black African, Sub-Saharan African, etc. and here you have a whole people with divided souls and lots of personality complexes and problems.
Spot on analysis.
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
What I also find interesting is that Arabs supposedly control "much" of Africa yet the only ones are 5 or 6 North African countries and most of the people in those countries don't even consider themselves "Arabs". I've been to Algerian, Libyan, and Egyptian forums and that's what they write.
Still, let us humor all of the po po beatdown sad wretched outcast negroes on this site such as rasol and Doug.
If its only 5 or 6 North African countries that Arabs "control", why the **** are you on this site caterwauling and screaming like women 24/7? You losers don't even consider the people of those countries Africans.
Its not like they control the other 95% of Africa like Uganda, Somalia, Botswana, Ethiopia, Zimbababwe, Cameroon, etc.
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: Interesting phenomenon:
Depaite the fact that there has historically a phenomenon called "Arab expansionism"--whereby the culture, religion and population settlements from the Arabian peninsula have extended into other areas--the results are to be pondered.
Arabs constitute less than 1% of the population of Asia and less than 1% of the population of Europe(including Russia).
In terms of religious affiliation the Islamic faith is adhered to by approximately 3% of Europeans and some 16% of Asia. As an exmaple of the impact of cultural Arabism in Asia consider the ongoing hostilities and animosities between Muslims and Hindus in India and its hinterlands of Pakistan and Bangladesh.
The Americas, Australasia and other areas of European settlement are in the same category as Europe proper.
In Africa self-defined "Arabs" are some 16% of Africa's population while the Islamic faith is adhered to by some 45% of the population.
Thus it seems that Africa seems to have been more accomodating of Arab expansionism in terms of cultural transformation and religion than other areas.
Combine Arabism with Francophonie, Anglophonie, Lusitaphonie, Diaspora African, Continental African, "White" African[which many Africans now accept], black African, Sub-Saharan African, etc. and here you have a whole people with divided souls and lots of personality complexes and problems.
Interesting points - and Arabs only make 20% of the global Muslim population - the 3 largest muslim populations are not even Arab - Indonesia, India and Pakistan.
Muslim distribution by country:
*Blue represents Shia Islam.
Posts: 121 | From: www.egyptianliving.com | Registered: Aug 2008
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EgyptianLiving*Com – quote: Interesting points - and Arabs only make 20% of the global Muslim population - the 3 largest muslim populations are not even Arab - Indonesia, India and Pakistan.
Sorry EgyptianLiving*Com – But your numbers don’t add up. There is estimated to be 1.4 billion Muslims in the world; 20% of that would be 280 million. Saudi Arabia’s current population is estimated to be 20-25 million (that is with all the immigration that occurred since White Europeans first invaded in Alexander’s time). Even if Arabia had de-populated itself for purposes of expansion in Muhammad’s time, you still couldn’t get 280 million Arabs out of it.
The rapid mutation rate of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and Y-chromosome microsatellites permits estimates of lineage expansion age and of the most probable geographic origin of these expansions. Only two studies regarding the Arabian Peninsula have been based on mtDNA. Lineage classification of a small sample of 29 Bedouins revealed that 25 (86%) had a Eurasian origin, two (7%) belonged to the sub-Saharan Africa L0 and L2 haplogroups, and two were left undetermined. A study of 115 Yemeni mtDNAs showed that Eurasian-specific and African-specific lineages existed in almost equal proportion in that southern Arabian Peninsula sample.
Eurasian origin = Means that they are actually Turks (like ALL White people, Turks are originally from the Eurasian Plains). So what you have done, is what many do, i.e. confuse Turks with Arabs.Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Oh, we surely does love him; he be treat us like we somebody; and he almost white too. We is truly blessed!
Spot on analysis - though I hate to admit - those men probably think along those lines.
But not in a "physiological" way if you know what I mean . It's all about the politics and money.
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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It doesn't matter WHO succeeds in uniting Africa. Only that it does effectively evolve into a unified entity which can be effective in forming a unified agenda.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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I wonder why you don't hold the same view for what Obama is doing.
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by meninarmer: It doesn't matter WHO succeeds in uniting Africa. Only that it does effectively evolve into a unified entity which can be effective in forming a unified agenda.
What; Africa is to trade-in European hegemony for ethnically Turkish hegemony?
You don't think much of African capabilities, do you? Perhaps you are justified in your views, but just remember; Africans couldn't possibly have been born that F-upped, they had to be Taught to be that F-upped - I hope!
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: EgyptianLiving*Com – quote: Interesting points - and Arabs only make 20% of the global Muslim population - the 3 largest muslim populations are not even Arab - Indonesia, India and Pakistan.
Sorry EgyptianLiving*Com – But your numbers don’t add up. There is estimated to be 1.4 billion Muslims in the world; 20% of that would be 280 million. Saudi Arabia’s current population is estimated to be 20-25 million (that is with all the immigration that occurred since White Europeans first invaded in Alexander’s time). Even if Arabia had de-populated itself for purposes of expansion in Muhammad’s time, you still couldn’t get 280 million Arabs out of it.
The rapid mutation rate of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and Y-chromosome microsatellites permits estimates of lineage expansion age and of the most probable geographic origin of these expansions. Only two studies regarding the Arabian Peninsula have been based on mtDNA. Lineage classification of a small sample of 29 Bedouins revealed that 25 (86%) had a Eurasian origin, two (7%) belonged to the sub-Saharan Africa L0 and L2 haplogroups, and two were left undetermined. A study of 115 Yemeni mtDNAs showed that Eurasian-specific and African-specific lineages existed in almost equal proportion in that southern Arabian Peninsula sample.
Eurasian origin = Means that they are actually Turks (like ALL White people, Turks are originally from the Eurasian Plains). So what you have done, is what many do, i.e. confuse Turks with Arabs.
I am by no means counting Turks as Arabs, I think you maybe got confused when I said around 20% 'Arabs' - I didn't say 'Saudi Arabians' or Penensula Arabs.
What I did say though was Arabs - and as I have said before, one such criteria for being classified as Arab can also be linguistically.
According to wiki (I know not the best source) it states: Overall, Arabs make up less than one quarter of the world's 1.4 billion Muslims, a group sometimes referred to as the Islamic world.Posts: 121 | From: www.egyptianliving.com | Registered: Aug 2008
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^^^I was just making the point that in modern usage "Arab" is a cultural term (and that too is incorrect). Culturally and ethnically, the very great majority of those people are ethnically Turks. That is why I included the DNA study that clearly shows that they are Turks.
The culture that I speak of; is derived from the period when Islam was not the Arab religion - in normal usage, but rather the Turkish religion, this period coincided with the Ottoman Empire. The things that we culturally attribute to Arabs, like the robes and veil, are not Arab at all, rather, they are Turkish.Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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SB, No I don't think of "Africa as a place where there's room for everyone of every race, creed, color and religion", I just don't get the anti-Arab hysteria.
Your thesis regarding a foreign invasion of Arabs into Africa, comparable to white colonial invasions, is indeed the staple feature of the simplistic and misleading anti-Arab propaganda (feed no doubt by white Jewish media) we have come to know all too well. I have already asked you to bring genetic evidence that black Arabs in N.Africa are "foreign", only then will I entertain your simplistic analogies. Until then the more accurate historical anaylis still stands: the so-called "invasion" was more or less in the form of conversion. So yes, Islam is foreign in sense of culture, "Arabism", but do try and take Lamin's sober approach:
quote:Combine ... with Francophonie, Anglophonie, Lusitaphonie, Diaspora African, Continental African, "White" African[which many Africans now accept], black African, Sub-Saharan African, etc. and here you have a whole people with divided souls and lots of personality complexes and problems.
before you go off and single out Islamic Africa as somehow being more nefarious and foreign oriented.
All foreign created spheres would like to dominate African politics...duh.. thats politics. But I have yet to see the evidence that Islamic Africa, then and now, is any more self-hating, self-serving and barbaric than those in the non-Arabic western sphere. The civil war in Sudan is comparable with one in Angola and Mozambique in its brutality. The one in DRC took four million lives, compare that with the civil war in Darfur and we see your anti-Arab hysteria is misplaced. Do we have self-hating black Arabs? yes; but I have yet to see the evidence that they are more of a threat to African interests (or "destroying Africa" according to Doug) than non-Arab black traitors like Muboto, Dos Santos, Mandela et al.
You guys don't seem to THINK only react.
Self haters and lackeys come in all cultures and religions. I just don't get crazy and carried away with anti-Arab white propaganda when it comes to Islamic Africa. E.g. Dougs gleefully posts Jewish controlled western media on slavery in Mauritania to make a case against Islamic Africa when human trafficking (slavery) is a world wide problem!
In closing, that you think whites fleeing a hell hole, created largely by the neo-liberal policies of the ANC, is a sign of the "purging of white power" then you are truly deluded. If the poor unemployed blacks had the chance they would flee too!!
quote:African against African violence has to stop in order for a United States of Africa to succeed...When Nkrumah suggested this concept, he was speaking of truly progressive governments joining together to liberate Africa from foreign control and oppression. He was not joining these governments together to make it easier for sell out leaders to give away more of Africa's wealth.
Nkrumah got this from Garvey, whom he said influenced him more than any other leader. Nkrumah also had an Arab wife.
I don't think you know much about Pan Africanist history outside of emotional rants and rhetoric.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by sportbilly: Akoben-- I generally like your posts on ancient Egypt and find your messages enlightening. However, since you decided to be condescending I only feel it right to return the favor.
Now, I know they don't have common sense in your neck of the woods, but I say this in the hope they at least have ears. Here's more of my wasted effort.
There's this little thing called "foresight." It means taking the information at hand and extrapolating what future events will be. Where the behavior of the arabs is concerned this is easy. They've been doing the same barbaric thing for the last 3,000 years. What part of this are you not understanding? Nobody said the arabs have Africa RIGHT NOW, but given their behavior for say the last 1,500 YEARS what makes you think they've stopped wanting to own Africa in the future? What's this got to do with Papa Gadaffi? He is an arab (perhaps somebody told you he's black, maybe that he's even Smokey Robinson, but trust me, he's an arab) he always has been an arab and always will be. Arabs don't like Africans. Go to Mecca or any arab country if you doubt this. He's done NOTHING --that means ZERO!-- on behalf of blacks. So, who can extrapolate that with such a dismal track record he's suddenly found religion, deicided to wash his hands of his arab familty members an focus on an Africa First policy? This will begin with talk of Africa First and end with Gadaffi first. I hope your empty rhetoric about this being a group of old leaders and BBC propaganda is true. Problem is I've seen this stunt before. Japan called it the Co-Prosperity Sphere. In truth it's the thin end of the wedge.
Now onto your "points." I never said get RID of Islam. As Dr Ben Jochanan wisely obserived, Islam is an idea. You can't fight an idea. Nor do I want to. It's not Islam that I oppose, but rather the fact it's become a thinly-velied form of "arabism." I've always maintained get rid of the ARABS --I'm an atheist, so I'm no fan of ANY religion, but I couldn't care less about Islam. Is a purge like this feasible? Hmmm, let's look at recent history and see. Look at how the huge increase in violence in South Africa is causing whites to self-deport to Australia, Europe etc. I see white colonialism being resisted by the MASSES and this fact is driving the agenda's of the self-interested puppets in these capitals. White power in Africa is slowly but surely being purged. Please try to keep up on current events dear, I so hate repeating myself. Since the whites are on the way out I have to ask what is being done about the arabs? Appeasement, that's what. Now, am I calling for open war? You'd pee your clean little panties if I answered that directly so let me give a less intimidating answer. I call for a "vigorous action in Africa's self-interest toward reestablishing a pre-colonial status quo." Yes, that will of a neccessity mean less whites and GASP! less arabs. But since the urbs alreayd have their barren wasteland of arabia I have NO problem with depopulating the continent of them. Hope your shorts are still unsoiled after that.
Will this happen? It depends; on whether the blacks understand what they're up against and decide to fight for what's theirs. They have no problem fighting each other to extinction in the Rwanda, the Congo or elsewhere. It's no stretch at all for four or five true national leaders to gather the people to fight the arabs. The only problem is marshalling the resolve.
History is repeating itself. And with the same cast of characters no less. Dr Clarke pointed out that in antiquity the Africans turned to the arabs precisely to get the white powers (Rome/Greece) off their backs. We know how that turned out. Sorry if we can't all hide our heads in the sand but some of us prefer seeing things as they truly are.
Perhaps you think of Africa as a place where there's room for everyone of every race, creed, color and religion. Watch a lot of TV, I see. Well I don't! I only see room for the Africans, and even then only for those who know and accept what is in Africa's best interests. You say, it's "radicalism." No it's common sense. Perhaps you've heard of it.
If anyone needs to "grow up" it's you. You're not a "child," (I assume) yet you're talking like a baby. Curling into a ball and saying "what will be will be" is not maturity, it's a suicide pact. Take the pacifier out of your mouth and stop the Pollyanna view you have. Africa has no friends. I know they didn't teach you that on the playground but in the real world of adults that's the sad reality. Do you believe Gadaffi intends to see the Africans able to resist Islam should the winds of religious perogative change? Perhaps he'll favor the Africans pushing back arab expansion? Or do you fantasize that Papa Gadaffi will support enforcing a just peace in Darfur, Ethiopia and the Congo? You're a liar and a damned fool if you say you do believe that. The arabs goals are the exact OPPOSITE of the Africans. Who's side do you think Col Momor stands on? When you answer that question you'll understand which of us is on the right side of the issue and which one is living in a dream world. Gadaffi is no more an "echo" of Garvey than Bush's "Ownership Society" is an echo of Malcolm's "Black Proprietor" vision. If you can't see that then you're more blind than that gallery of stooges Gadaffi had pimping him to the black world.
Good post. My sentiments exactly.
Posts: 148 | From: Sirius | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Education and power are two different things. A person in power can have NO eduction and still have power. Meanwhile a person with A LOT of education can have NONE, NO MATTER what they WOULD LIKE to do with it.
Power means the ability to make things happen.
Education is important, but without power it is meaningless.
The only reason education is powerful is because it can embolden those who have been sleep to take power for themselves. But at the end of the day, education by itself does not give you power.
Case in point. There are PLENTY of educated blacks in the U.S. and Europe along with PLENTY of educated blacks in Africa as well. But how many of them have the POWER to create REAL change?
To have power means to know how power operates and be willing to USE that knowledge to make things happen. Just having an education does not guarantee that. In fact, ambition is more important than education, because with ambition you can gain more power than any educated person with NO ambition.
Doug has made some very profound points.
Posts: 148 | From: Sirius | Registered: Sep 2006
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Gaddafi's views are filled with holes, tricks and bad ol' Arabic/Islamic agendas. Many Black Africans have already been on top of this desperate, power-hungry Arab for a while now. He's a self-styled Arab who was instrumental in getting Mauritania to withdraw from Economic Community of West African States (ECOWAS), now he wants to preach one Africa? Controlled by whom? Arabs? Do these people wake up in the morning really believing they've realized a zenith level intelligence? An entity which specializes in dis-unifying is not in position to tell the whole Africa anything about unification.
This is what the news had to say recently on Gaddafi's rhetoric on his idea of so-called "African Unity" during a summit of African Union leaders in Ethiopia:
So again, the power hungry Gaddafi's is out of touch, desperate and has no idea just how backwards he is.
Posts: 213 | From: New York City, USA | Registered: Sep 2007
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^ Arabic/Islamic agendas eh? LOL It may very well be the case that he still has sentiment for Arabism, duh, he's an Arab.
But please name one African leader, apart from Mugabe, that has an Africa first agenda, i.e. one that puts African interests over Washington, London and Paris.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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What is obvious though is that none of the other African heads of state are saying or proposing anything. Maybe it's because they have no conception of African history. Hence Khadafi gets centre stage by default.
Item: Khadafi just squeezed $5 billion from Italy for colonial transgressions. The return on that is that he help stop Africans from migrating to Italy--and Europe--through Libya.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by KemsonReloaded: Gaddafi's views are filled with holes, tricks and bad ol' Arabic/Islamic agendas. Many Black Africans have already been on top of this desperate, power-hungry Arab for a while now. He's a self-styled Arab who was instrumental in getting Mauritania to withdraw from Economic Community of West African States (ECOWAS), now he wants to preach one Africa? Controlled by whom? Arabs? Do these people wake up in the morning really believing they've realized a zenith level intelligence? An entity which specializes in dis-unifying is not in position to tell the whole Africa anything about unification.
Just to quote akoben's earlier point in case you didn't read it:
quote:Originally posted by akoben: The asinine nature of sportbilly comment about Khadafi "just got through taking over africa" can only be appreciated when we consider the fact that it is western/Christian/white Jewish domination that has been the norm since at least early 1800s. And today: who finances the AU? Arabs? Who controls DRC's vast mineral wealth? Arabs? Who controls southern Africa's arable land and diamond fields, Arabs? Who has the international clout (IMF Wolrd bank)and power to enact sanctions against a black African country and destroy a genuine movement towards economic independence? Arabs? You fools need a reality check.
quote:Originally posted by akoben: ^ Arabic/Islamic agendas eh? LOL It may very well be the case that he still has sentiment for Arabism, duh, he's an Arab.
But please name one African leader, apart from Mugabe, that has an Africa first agenda, i.e. one that puts African interests over Washington, London and Paris.
By any chance are you an A-rab?
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: What is obvious though is that none of the other African heads of state are saying or proposing anything. Maybe it's because they have no conception of African history. Hence Khadafi gets centre stage by default.
Item: Khadafi just squeezed $5 billion from Italy for colonial transgressions. The return on that is that he help stop Africans from migrating to Italy--and Europe--through Libya.
Excellent point. I mean I hold no brief for the man but you have to give him credit for being a genuine anti-colonial, unlike the paper anti-imperialist Mbeki and his African renaissance. The "Arabism" bogeyman re Ghaddfi is nothing more than a smoke screen for keeping the status quo in Africa. What whites and their negro surrogates in Africa fear the most is not some mass conversion to Islam but African leaders following the Libyan example as far as standing up like MEN to the west, like Mugabe finally did. Indeed it's a sad state of affairs when Libya (unlike Garvey's Liberia or Nkrumah's Ghana) becomes the anti-colonial model.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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Libya has a history of anti-colonialism- Omar Mukhtar was the leader of the resistance movement which fought against Italian occupation for more than 20 years. He was later captured and executed.
There is an excellent film about his life and struggle called The 'Lion of the Desert' starring Anthony Quinn.
Not sure about a source as blindly, as blatently, and as obsequiously 'pro-Western-agenda' (in terms of exploitation) as that (above) one, but I'd agree that we'd need to watch this guy who is so self-oriented with African unity as would we need to eye any other African leader - they all have their problems.
The goal is African Unity, and as was said, it doesn't matter who brings it, just how it's done.
Now I vote lamin , or at least I vote in lamin as an advisor - but seriously, I'd fight for a leader as bright as lamin long as I new what they were really about.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: What is obvious though is that none of the other African heads of state are saying or proposing anything. Maybe it's because they have no conception of African history. Hence Khadafi gets centre stage by default.
Item: Khadafi just squeezed $5 billion from Italy for colonial transgressions. The return on that is that he help stop Africans from migrating to Italy--and Europe--through Libya.
A while ago, other "African heads" of nations organized themselves enough to come together and successfully formed the "African Union" or "AU" for short. In fact, the AU provided the first major peace force in Darfur (~7,000 in total). Why can't the power hungry Khadafi work with the well established, well organized AU? AU members were highly instrumental in quickly helping Kenya to peace, and continue with Zimbabwe. If Khadafi wasn't so worried about Black Africa's rising status, while he ignores Black Africa's genuine achievements to political/economical stability, Khadafi would've had a better approach. While he continues to preach his African Unity rhetoric based on ultimatums, African Unity has already been formed. It is called "African Union".
Love the following quote and how it rings the sound of truth:
"Maybe it's because they have no conception of African history."
"Khadafi just squeezed $5 billion from Italy for colonial transgressions. The return on that is that he help stop Africans from migrating to Italy--and Europe--through Libya."
I wonder how he stopped this migration? hmmm...
And he "squeezed $5 billion", I believe $4 should have gone directly to Black Africans for the enslavement of Black Africans by Arabs. People should look closer before erroneously believing Black Africans "no conception of African history". One concept of African history Black Africans have always been aware of is simply, ever since Arabs came to Africa, around ~641AD, Arabs have been more problems to Africa than positive additions. Khadafi seems to radiate this all the time.
Finally, though many pretend not to know what is going on, I'll spill the beans and tell it like it is. No political correctness here. The gloves come off.
Gaddafi is a power hungry, Arab leader simply attempting to pervert the idea of oneness towards some wishful Arab agenda, which of cause will never work considering the hellish problems Arabs have put Black Africans through. Gaddafi is an Arab who ignorantly believes in false ideas like Arabs are superior to Black Africans. Gaddafi is well aware that Nigeria, Ghana, Kenya, South African and other Black African nations are the rising, leading powers in Africa and their corporative efforts, quick problem resolving abilities spells bad news for Arabs who dwell in a sea of false and negative beliefs about Black Africans. Gaddafi also knows, somewhere deep in his mind, that their's not a damn thing he or any other Arab leaders can do about. So in the meantime, Gaddafi will continue entertaining us with circus acts and speeches. I especially find it entertaining when runs around with his women security as if he's a villain character in a cheap, wannabe James Bond flick. This explains why he gets "centre stage by default". Good luck in your movie career Gaddafi.
Posts: 213 | From: New York City, USA | Registered: Sep 2007
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So much for Gaddafi's anti-west rhetoric. Gaddafi certainly talks a good game. I said long ago Gaddafi often says all the right things but rarely does he practice what he preaches. I agree with Doug, Gaddafi is for Gaddafi. I doubt he's the "revolutionary" some claim he is. ____________________________
Posts: 148 | From: Sirius | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by EgyptianLiving*Com: I am still waiting for sportsbilly's reply to my post in response to his quote about getting rid of Arabs from Africa...
In the meantime, Doug - since you are stating that Arab identity is 'foreign' to Africa (Even though Arab presence in Africa dates back to pre-Islamic times) Are you also proposing to get rid of Arabs as sportsbilly so bluntly put it?
Arab immigration from Southwest Asia into East Africa goes back to pre-Islamic times. At the beginning of the 5th century B.C., Sabaen (south Arabian) armies settled in the Ethiopian highlands.1 The resulting intermingling of Sabaen and Ethiopian cultures produced the Axum kingdom, which became a powerful empire. 2 The term Abyssinia itself is taken from the Habashan, a powerful southwestern Arabian family which settled in Ethiopia.3 A 1st century B.C. Greek source Periplus of the Erythraen Sea reports large ships going to the East African coast manned by "Arab captains and agents who are familiar with the natives and intermarry with them, and who know the whole coast and understand the language."4
Wars in Arabia in the 7th and 8th centuries sent a large influx of Arab refugees from Arabia and the Persian Gulf to African coastal cities of Somalia, Kenya, and Tanzania.5 Out of this intermingling of Arabs and black Africans was born the Swahili - a Bantu-based Arabized culture. By the 10th century, Arabs were living as far south as Sofala.6 Immigrants from Yemen and Hadramaut came to East Africa in the 13th and 14th century.7 Ibn Battuta, who visited the Swahili coast in 1331 CE, wrote of Mogadishu, then a Swahili town, that Swahili businessmen each had personal ties with Asian merchants, whom they entertained and accommodated in their own houses.8
Until the 19th century, Arabs tended to integrate into the local culture and had relatively little impact on local African traditions.9 But some new imports from Arab culture became central to East African life. Apparently, East Africans were using Arabic script at least by the 9th century. According to Chinese official records of the Zenjistan ambassadors in 9th century China, (Persian Zenj from Arabic Zanj for the people of the East African coast) the Zenjistan language was "like Arabic".10 Quite likely, when asked by the Chinese to write some words, the East African ambassadors wrote in Arabic script.11
The Swahili language is Bantu with a high proportion of Arab loan words.12 The word "Swahili" itself is derived from the Arabic word for "coast". The Swahilis wrote their language in Arabic script for centuries before switching to the Roman script recently.13
Sultans of Omani descent built Zanzibar City in the 18th and 19th centuries.14 (now part of Tanzania) Between 1880 and 1950, Immigrants from Arabia, from Aden and Hadramaut in particular, flocked to East Africa.15 These newcomers brought with them changes in fashion, architectural styles and vocabulary.16 Hadrahmi merchants began to dominate the Swahili trade with southern Arabia.17 Other Arabs of lower economic classes worked in Zanzibar City and Mombasa as hawkers, coffee sellers and unskilled laborers.18 Many died in the Zanzibar revolution of 1964, and the remaining have returned to Oman.19 Some East Africans of Arab-black descent still maintain family ties in Asia. These are descended from relatively recent immigrants and have contact with relatives in Arab countries. Many Swahili have fairly recent Omani ancestors and have used this link to migrate to well-paid posts in Oman.20
Notes: 1)Runoko Rashidi, "Africans in Early Asian Civilizations: An Overview", African Presence in Early Asia, ed. Runoko Rashidi, p. 32
2)Runoko Rashidi, "Africans in Early Asian Civilizations: An Overview", African Presence in Early Asia, ed. Runoko Rashidi, p. 32
3)Runoko Rashidi, "Africans in Early Asian Civilizations: An Overview", African Presence in Early Asia, ed. Runoko Rashidi, p. 32
4)Basil Davidson, The Lost Cities of Africa, p. 178
5)Basil Davidson, p. 178 6)Basil Davidson, p. 179
7)James De V. Allen, Swahili Origins, p. 193
8)John Middleton, The World of the Swahili, p. 22
9)James De V. Allen, p. 243 10)James De V. Allen, p. 137 11)James De V. Allen, p. 137
12)John Middleton, p. xii 13)John Middleton, p. 2 14)John Middleton, p. 80
15)James De V. Allen, p. 240 16)James De V. Allen, p. 243
17)John Middleton, p. 53 18)John Middleton, p. 223 19)John Middleton, p. 223 20)John Middleton, The World of the Swahili, p. 186
How do you define foreign? how long does one have to settle and habitualise, reproduce generations and generations, leave ones culture and language as a mark till one is considered a native of the land?
Is 'African' culture/identity foreign to Brazil? it is so evident in brazilian culture - from music to religious beliefs and superstitions - its the country with the largest number of african blacks outside of Africa itself... is African influence and culture/identity foreign to the Carribean - even though they are not 'natives' of those islands??
The article mentions how Swahili has many loan words from Arabic, even the name Swahili is from Arabic. The language was written in Arabic script for centuries. And not only that, as I have stressed before, Arabic today is the most spoken language in Africa. So explain to me how Arab identity is foreign to the continent which is home to the 3 largest arabic speaking populations (Egypt, Algeria and Morocco) ?????
Propaganda.
Arabs believe they have the natural right to own and control any and everything they desire in Africa. The proof is in their actions. Africa did not get in the current state it's in without the constant meddling of arabs and other foreigners. You must believe everything works in a vacuum - the world is utopia? Your perception of reality is flawed. Your premise is counterproductive to any possible black advancement.
Apparently when blacks and arabs are in close proximity on the African continent, often there is conflict and tyranny. Whenever there's conflict and tyranny there is oppression. And when there's oppression Africans are relegated to the lowest social hierarchy at the hands of Arabs in the black man's house. This must be rectified. Arabs will not have it any other way. If the scenario were reversed to some western Asian country such as Saudi Arabia, arabs would unconditionally organize and repel any form of black dominance. Arabs would never tolerate second class citizenship to black people under any circumstance. You know this is true. However double standards apply for blacks in Africa. It's amazing to me how whites and arabs can rule Europe and Asia with impunity - the international community will not second guess their actions. But blacks in Africa are forbidden to rule with impunity and often scrutinized. "Africa is for all people" .... whites and arabs can squat on African land and it's fair game. But Europe and Asia is reserved only for the perspective contemporaries. This is the type of jargon that motivates me to write such essays.
Interesting enough, arabs are not interested in social and economic equality with Africans - especially when Arabs are running things. That's the nature of the beast, correct? Leveling the playing field and social equality is low priority when the ruling class (arabs/whites) sits comfortably in the drivers seat. Shift the driver (arab/white) to the passenger seat and suddenly equality and any other social construct becomes top priority. It's not until then do blacks have to "get along" and play fair with their neighbor. Also, I have often read of the high level of racism and abuse against African people in such places as Saudi Arabia and Egypt. What is your explanation for this?
There is no compromising. You can't compromise with people who negate justice and social equality. Africans and arabs have not lived in peace and probably never will. This is the harsh reality. So what's the solution to this problem? You can't live in peace and compromise with arabs unless they ascertain total control of all economic, political, and social affairs of black Africans. So I ask you once again, if we were talking about a ruling class of black Africans subjugating a majority of Arabs in Saudi Arabia, would your tune be different?
Posts: 148 | From: Sirius | Registered: Sep 2006
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. It's all about the politics and money.
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