posted
IT's been 30yrs since the book ThEY CAME BEFORE COLUMBUS came out,i became awere of it in the mid 80'S and to me it never got old. Now Abubakari the 2nd unlike Chen HO or Eric The Red,never got his due.at least in any documentary i know,and i saw tons of programms of possiable voyages of discovery,now weather or not you beleived he made land fall is beside the point.the point is he made the effort,and his successor,Mansa Kan Kan Musa left his record of his attemped,of which two written account servived.Masalik-Al-Abasar and Ibn Fadl Allah al Omari.So people who are sticklers for written accounts over oral have got themselves something to chew on.my question is has anyone tried to retraced his steps i mean field work,tracing documents,interviewing the griots,checking out the library at Timbuctu to find any other documents, of on going voyages? and what about the other side of the Atlantic where he could of made landfall.all this begs to be video taped and dramatized,and he should have one of the next generation of space shuttles named after him.200 ships on the 1st mission and 2000 ships on the 2nd,oh come on history channel or discovery,this should be right up your alley,John Singleton,Spike Lee where are you? Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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^Ok, I'm not sure there's enough concrete evidence to render a conclusion either way academically but on a sort of "preponderance of evidence" type of basis, these are one of those so-called "alternative theories" that I wouldn't particularly criticize too harshly. It seems very probable not only per Sertima pointing out what Africans knew about navigation at the time and that where Abu Bakr II supposedly took off (shores of modern-day Gambia) lead into a current which flowed directly to south America, but the fact that gold was recovered which was traceable (per its elemental consistency) to the Manding region and the very fact that Abubakari II knew that there was some kind of "limit" to the Atlantic ocean, which is telling. Many European countries/people emerging from the dark ages at that time assumed that the "limit" or end involved falling off the earth completely or that you couldn't make it beyond some clime.
I tried verifying Van Sertima et al claims about accounts from Christopher Columbus coming across "Black traders" or his account of Indians who came across Black traders, but haven't so far. Not because of anything they omitted, but I am short on time. Ironically, I just got my hands on the primary work for which he attributes his claim, but now I need to track down the point of attestation after finding the citation for the said claim...
@ Clyde.. I can understand the sentiment of some aboriginal opponents of your view who feel that your claims of Africans perpetuating native American civilization (based on flimsy evidence) are insulting.
Just for purposes of peer review, is there anything verifying these said inscriptions? Are they in Arabic and do you have any photos? Can you post a cite from the authorities who found them and their accompanying interpretation? Have they been dated and what was the technique used? At least give us people who are rightfully critical a way to verify your claims or at the very least post an authority who seconds your views.....
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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@ Clyde.. I can understand the sentiment of some aboriginal opponents of your view who feel that your claims of Africans perpetuating native American civilization (based on flimsy evidence) are insulting.
Just for purposes of peer review, is there anything verifying these said inscriptions? Are they in Arabic and do you have any photos? Can you post a cite from the authorities who found them and their accompanying interpretation? Have they been dated and what was the technique used? At least give us people who are rightfully critical a way to verify your claims or at the very least post an authority who seconds your views.....
The book "Unexpected Faces in Ancient America" by Alexander Wuthenau reveals artifacts and verifiable evidence. In Wathenau's book he details anthropologists who present solid evidence of Islamic petrogyphs in Mexico and the southwest U.S. Also, Wuthenau cites Smithsonian scholars who believe the Islamic crescent moon had influenced various Indian tribes in the Americas that came directly from West Africa during Abubakari's reign. The book is out of print but you might be able to purchase a used copy on Alibris.
Dr Winters and Dr Van Sertima are just two out of a dozen or so scholars/writers who have consistently presented verifiable evidence on this subject matter.
Keep up the great work, Dr Winters.
Posts: 148 | From: Sirius | Registered: Sep 2006
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Sorry Sundjata i am in no possition to varify anything as my rescearch skills are very poor. I can only count on books i have in my position,which are very few,most of what i have is collecting dust in New York.btw thanks for the article,I will try and get my hands on the brother's book.the Van sertima link was on the money.I remember in a follow up book or interview, he said that in the U.S Vargin Islands they found two remainds of africans with pre colombian braclets clamped around their wrist,but salt water plus a nail found at the same level made the findings inconclusive,but that was maybe 20yrs ago,maybe it's time to get another shot at it because dating and genetic varification technque must have improved by now. btw Africans did not used nails? that sound silly when i first read or hear that, that was the cause of the controversy.Jmt Van Sertima talk about Alexander Wuthenau alot, he said that he had a huge private collection of sculptures depticing Africans as well as others people.the only thing is that would'nt fly in todays genetic as proof world,espicially on this board.D.R Winters thanks for the link.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Hi Arwa if you are intrested in mthyology also check out Brother G's video on the same goole video link that Sundjata provided,it's called Shades Of Memnon.quite intresting.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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@ Clyde.. I can understand the sentiment of some aboriginal opponents of your view who feel that your claims of Africans perpetuating native American civilization (based on flimsy evidence) are insulting.
Just for purposes of peer review, is there anything verifying these said inscriptions? Are they in Arabic and do you have any photos? Can you post a cite from the authorities who found them and their accompanying interpretation? Have they been dated and what was the technique used? At least give us people who are rightfully critical a way to verify your claims or at the very least post an authority who seconds your views.....
I don't give a dam if people don't agree with my work. They dispute my work because they are Eurocentric and I am AA. For example, I presented my work on the Olmec writing at numerous conferences in the 1990's, at which many of the leading members of the establishment were in the audience and they never made one comment about my work.
Look who attack my work on the Olmec non-Olmec scholars like Jaime or Bernardo--not experts. They refuse to attack my work because I might just be allowed to make a rebuttal--then they would have to prove they are right using evidence--which they don't have.
When I am dead and gone many researchers will "rediscover" my work and get credit for my findings much the way Oppert, got credit for Rawlinson's decipherment of the cuneiform script. I don't care about this possibility because I seek to advance truth--not falsehood.
I deciphered the inscriptions associated with the Abubakari expeditionary force back in the 1970's. They were written in the Libyco-Berber/Vai script. The corpus of inscriptions were published in the Bull d'IFAN and later the Journal of African Civilization.
My most recent decipherment of one of the Abubakari inscriptions is the Coopna inscription.
@ Clyde.. I can understand the sentiment of some aboriginal opponents of your view who feel that your claims of Africans perpetuating native American civilization (based on flimsy evidence) are insulting.
Just for purposes of peer review, is there anything verifying these said inscriptions? Are they in Arabic and do you have any photos? Can you post a cite from the authorities who found them and their accompanying interpretation? Have they been dated and what was the technique used? At least give us people who are rightfully critical a way to verify your claims or at the very least post an authority who seconds your views.....
The book "Unexpected Faces in Ancient America" by Alexander Wuthenau reveals artifacts and verifiable evidence. In Wathenau's book he details anthropologists who present solid evidence of Islamic petrogyphs in Mexico and the southwest U.S. Also, Wuthenau cites Smithsonian scholars who believe the Islamic crescent moon had influenced various Indian tribes in the Americas that came directly from West Africa during Abubakari's reign. The book is out of print but you might be able to purchase a used copy on Alibris.
Dr Winters and Dr Van Sertima are just two out of a dozen or so scholars/writers who have consistently presented verifiable evidence on this subject matter.
Keep up the great work, Dr Winters.
I am glad you mentioned von Wuthenau, he was one of the few scholars to promote my work. Back in 1980 we made several joint speaking engagements on the East Coast.
Von Wuthenau was a good man of high character he made the wonderful graphic of the Taharka head surrounded by the Olmec heads.
At the top of the picture Von Wuthenau gives my decipherment of one of the Olmec celts.
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Didn't know that JMT, thank you... I'll definitely check out his work as that's mainly all that I was requesting from Clyde (some kind of support)..
@ Clyde.. Wasn't trying to imply that you need appease what is so clearly a Eurocentric establishment, some (like me) are just at odds some times when we need to rely on sources we can't verify. I've read some of the criticisms against you but not being a linguist I have a hard time making heads or tails out of the arguments put fourth. People like me (undergrads/lay persons) rely heavily on secondary material which means there's a certain level of faith involved, especially when there's only one person making the claim. Though as JMT has pointed out, this apparently isn't true in your case so I'm inclined to do a bit more reading on this before forming a conclusive opinion I suppose...
Thanx for the work you do in this area btw..
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Hay guys,one thing at a time lets deal with the Olmecs in another thread.lets deal with Abubakari,i will try and get the book that Sundjata introduced.how about things like architecture,you like the Western Sudanese style.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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I've heard a lot about the Garifuna linking themselves to a pre-columbian voyage as a way to account for their presence in the Americas but I was wondering if there was more to rely on. Do they have any cultural retentions that can be traced back to Mali for example?
-------------------- mr.writer.asa@gmail.com Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Hey Sunjata,i actully know some Garifuna in Belize,i don't know of a pre-columbian link tho,but the "Official"explaination for their existance is that they were servivors of a shipwreak from a slave ship,and that they escaped into the interior and settled with or close to the native Mayans.my personal view is that there is more to the story.One thing tho they at least those who lives in Belize are very tight with the Mayans.But whatever the truth of their origins they have no living memories of ever being slaves.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:But whatever the truth of their origins they have no living memories of ever being slaves.
Exactly.. The first mention of them was from Père Raymond Breton in 1630 on St. Vincent island. Then they relayed the story to him that they were explorers who'd been there long before Europeans. Breton also mentioned them culturally as being indistinguishable from the other Caribs (as they were of course called "Black Caribs"). Now this would be more or less 100 years after African slaves landed in the new world. That is such a short span of time for a people to develop amnesia (presuming that they were actually slaves and simply made up that story and within 100 yeas, embeded it entirely with their folklore) and develop an entirely different culture based on assimilation.. I was just watching a documentary on the Garifuna where again/still, they persist with these claims.
^I agree, I think there's more to it. I think that I may be leaning towards the opinion that Abubakari's voyage may have been a success but I'm still a bit tentative.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Oh man,thanks for the link i will check it out first thing when i get up.You know it is one thing to read about people in books or see them in a documentary,but it's a whole nother ball game when you get to meet them in the flesh,we definiantly need a new corp of cultural anthropologist,who do not fit in the old mold.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Hey Sundjata, just got finished watching the Video link, thanks again ma brother,it makes me want to throw out some videos of the maroon comunities starting with Jamaica,much field work needs to be done such as disecting there language espicially their songs,and trace their origins back to the Orinoco river,and that would be the easy part,for then you would have to find exactly where they made the 1st landing on that very long river to find artifacts,which is difficult to servive in that humidity,but the hunt must begin.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by ackee: Hi Arwa if you are intrested in mthyology also check out Brother G's video on the same goole video link that Sundjata provided,it's called Shades Of Memnon.quite intresting.
According to Brother G we're all Kushites.
Posts: 1819 | From: odesco baba | Registered: Feb 2005
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I'm familiar with Shades of Memnon. The last time I brought it up on here, Brother G showed up on the forums (in that same thread) immediately thereafter to discuss his work. He has posted on here before..
Matter of fact, here is a thread that he made a while ago about the book series.. - Click
He's also a big supporter of Clyde Winters it seems.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:lLord Sauron According to Brother G we're all Kushites. Well at the level of myth yes we are all Kushites,eastern and western Ethiopian comes to mind?.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Hey Sundjata, i just happend across this on wiki,while searching for Mansa Musa's route,have you or anyone else heard of this guy?
Khashkhash Ibn Saeed Ibn Aswad From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search Khashkhāsh ibn Sa`īd ibn Aswad (Arabic خشخاش بن سعيد بن اسود) (born in Pechina, Andalusia) was a Moorish navigator of Islamic Spain. According to Muslim historian Abu al-Hasan 'Alī al-Mas'ūdī (871-957), Khashkhash Ibn Saeed Ibn Aswad sailed over the Atlantic Ocean and discovered a previously unknown land (Ard Marjhoola). In his book Muruj adh-dhahab wa maadin aljawhar (The fields of gold and the mines of jewels), al-Mas'udi writes that Khashkhash Ibn Saeed Ibn Aswad, from Delba (Palos de la Frontera) sailed into the Atlantic Ocean in 889 and returned with a shipload of valuable treasures.[1][2]
Ali al-Masudi, in The Book of Golden Meadows (947), wrote:
"In the ocean of fogs [the Atlantic] there are many curiosities which we have mentioned in detail in our Akhbar az-Zaman, on the basis of what we saw there, adventurers who penetrated it on the risk of their life, some returning back safely, others perishing in the attempt. Thus a certain inhabitant of Cordoba, Khashkhash by name, assembled a group of young men, his co-citizens, and went on a voyage on this ocean. After a long time he returned back with booty. Every Spaniard knows this story."[3][4]
And don't his name Kashkash sounds like kushkush IE"KUSH" and his last name Aswad meaning black in Arabic?
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Aswad doesn't mean "Black" as remember, that's translated from Sudan, but it does signify the darkest range on the Arab color scheme when describing skin complexion (as ausar notes). Indeed, Ibn Saeed Ibn Aswad was likely a moor.
He and others also mentioned here:
quote:Numerous evidence suggests that Muslims from Spain and West Africa arrived in the Americas at least five centuries before Co1umbus. It is recorded, for example that in the mid-tenth century during the rule of the Umayed Caliph Abdul-Rahman III (929-961), Muslims of African origin sailed westward from the Spanish port of Delba (Palos) into the “Ocean of darkness an fog.” They returned after a long absence with much booty from a “strange and curious land.” It is evident that people of Muslim origin are known to have accompanied Columbus and subsequent Spanish explorers to the New World.
The last Muslim stronghold in Spain, Granada, fell to the Christians in 1492 CE, just before the Spanish inquisition was launched. To escape persecution, many non-Christians fled or embraced Catholicism. At least two documents imply the presence of Muslims in Spanish America before 1550 CE. Despite the fact that a decree issued in 1539 CE, by Charles V, King of Spain, forbade the grandsons of Muslims who had been burned at the stake to migrate to the West Indies. This decree was ratified in 1543 CE, and an order for the expulsion of all Muslims from overseas Spanish territories was subsequently published. Many references on the Muslim arrival in the Americas are available. They are summarized in the following notes:
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＠Sundjata, thanks for the new info and the link. So Many explorations over a period of some 500yrs before Coloumbus. You know what would be great if the original spear points could be found and subjected to modern day metal forensic examination. also except for the bottle gourd and the cotton that DR Van Sertma.discribed is there anyother plants or animals that is found in old world that could have come the new world from that era ?
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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