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Molecular Biology and Evolution, doi:10.1093/molbev/msp069
Genetic and demographic implications of the Bantu expansion: insights from human paternal lineages
Gemma Berniell-Lee et al.
Abstract
The expansion of Bantu languages, which started around 5,000 years before present (YBP) in west/central Africa and spread all throughout sub-Saharan Africa, may represent one of the major and most rapid demographic movements in the history of the human species. Although the genetic footprints of this expansion have been unmasked through the analyses of the maternally-inherited mitochondrial (mtDNA) lineages, information on the genetic impact of this massive movement and on the genetic composition of pre-Bantu populations is still scarce. Here we analyze an extensive collection of Y-chromosome markers - 41 SNPs and 18 STRs - in 883 individuals from 22 Bantu-speaking agriculturalist populations and 3 Pygmy hunter-gatherer populations from Gabon and Cameroon. Our data reveal a recent origin for most paternal lineages in west Central African populations most likely resulting from the expansion of Bantu-speaking farmers that erased the more ancient Y-chromosome diversity found in this area. However, some traces of ancient paternal lineages are observed in these populations, mainly among hunter-gatherers. These results are at odds with those obtained from mtDNA analyses, where high frequencies of ancient maternal lineages are observed, and substantial maternal gene flow from hunter-gatherers to Bantu farmers has been suggested. These differences are most likely explained by socio-cultural factors such as patrilocality. We also find the intriguing presence of paternal lineages belonging to Eurasian haplogroup R1b1*, which might represent footprints of demographic expansions in central Africa not directly related to the Bantu expansion.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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I am sceptical of the whole R1b1* in ancient Africa theory. If R1b1b* has been present in Africa with this kind of time-depth one would expect to see sub-lineage differentiation.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ Have there been any studies of the diversity of P25 in Africa?
Evergreen Writes:
Not that I am aware of. Most of the studies which posit R1b1* in prehistoric Africa reference upstream P25 and not sublineages or diversity.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
These chromosomes presumably "belonging to" R1b1* may actually be clusters of those dubbed "R1*-M173", which lacked downstream mutations that are assigned to either R1b or R1a; the way the authors framed their statement may give a misleading impression of these having been tested positive for M343 rather than just M173 (R1*), unless of course, it is specifically demonstrated so in the study at hand. The R1*-M173 were determined to lack M343 in studies that had actually also tested for M343 UEP. So...*unless* these are newly uncovered derivatives which are more downstream than the aforementioned M173 chromosomes but yet more upstream than "Eurasian" clusters of R1b1, which would make these chromosomes a new addition to the index of unique R1* chromosomes in Africa, then I suspect what is being alluded to here, are actually R1*-M173 clusters rather than R1b1*. Anyway, a more complete examination of the study will make it clearer what is going on here.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Specifically, most of these lineages have been associated either to Bantu-speaking people - E1b1a (E3a according to The Y Chromosome Consortium (2002)), B2a, and E2 - or to Pygmy populations (haplogroup B2b). We also observed traces of haplogroups A, E*, E1a, and E1b1b1a (E3b1 according to The Y Chromosome Consortium (2002)), which are found at low frequencies across the African continent (Underhill et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2001; Cruciani et al. 2002; Wood et al. 2005). Interestingly, almost 5% of the individuals here analyzed belonged to Eurasian haplogroup R1b1*.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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It seems there are those who wish to avoid explaining why they are using a eurocentric term which is essentially a substitute for the debunked "negroid" race classification.
But I know that cannot be the case since these people think of themselves as scholars and intellectuals so again I will ask: ------------------------------------------
What is a "Bantu"?
Why is there no ethnic group of people in Africa named "Bantu"?
Who created the term "Bantu" to refer to a group of Africans? What was his ethnicity?
Why are you people using that term from that individual?
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^ Personally, I wish to hear more of the intelligent thoughts of Evergreen and Explorer on genetics, and [much] less of your idiotic off-topic babbling.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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^ No. Not the same haplotype. Again we have different labeling terminologies in use which create confusion. see...
quote:these chromosomes presumably "belonging to" R1b1* may actually be clusters of those dubbed "R1*-M173", which lacked downstream mutations that are assigned to either R1b or R1a
quote: Personally, I wish to hear more of the intelligent thoughts of Evergreen and Explorer on genetics, and [much] less of your idiotic off-topic babbling.
Personally, I don't give a damn what you wish to hear.
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If you people are so scholarly and intellectual, why are you using the phrase "bantu"? Especially when it was coined from a basic word by Africans in a non ethnic phrase into an ethnic phrase by some white man?
Isn't bantu the same as "negroid"?
Aren't you dummies even smart enough to see the pattern?
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
^Bantu is an indigenous apellation. It means "the people". There are variants also, like mtu or watu, meaning the same; "people". Look it up and stop trolling. .....................
Interesting topic btw and I was wondering the same thing as Seeking but see that it was already addressed.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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About Bantu being synonymous with "Negroid" ironically it was popular for many racist anthropologists to say that Bantu were superior to other Africans or that they might have been elevated by some white blood. It was the only way they could explain civilization in Africa. Labeling people as Negroid once literally meant a people in Africa that supposedly had enough white blood to develop higher levels of culture.
The Bantu migrations after all was allot like the Hamite idea that they developed. They were labeled as a comparatively developed people bringing technology and culture to a more primitive people
For all practical purposes, at the present day in the southern third of Africa there is but one 'language family, the only rival to the Bantu being the Bushman-Hottentot tongues, which, together with the allied Sandawi in East Africa, are spoken at most by 50,000 people at the present day, as against an approximate 40,000,000 who speak Bantu languages. From the Cameroons on the west to Zanzibar on the east, from the southern frontiers of Somaliland on the north to Damaraland and Cape Colony on the south, 40,000,000—or it may even be 50,000,000—of black men speak languages belonging to the Bantu group, languages which are far more closely inter-related than is the case in any other grouping of African forms of speech. The Bantu languages, in fact, are rather more closely related one to the other—even in their extremest forms—than are the Aryan languages. This is so much the case that a native of Zanzibar can very soon make himself understood on the Congo, while a man of the Cameroons would not be long before he grasped the vocabulary of the Zulu. This interesting fact must play a certain part in the political development of Africa south of the fifth degree of north latitude. The rapidity with which the Kiswahili tongue of Zanzibar—a very convenient, simple, and expressive form of Bantu speech— has spread far and wide over East Central Africa, and has even gained a footing on the Congo, hints at the possibility of the Bantu Negroes at some future time adopting a universal Bantu language for inter-communication. Unless before then English, French, and Portuguese languages have got such a firm hold on the Bantu populations in the Engh'sh, German, French, Belgian, and Portuguese spheres of influnce, the generalised type of Bantu language which will grow up amongst the 40,000,000 of Bantu Negroes may lead to a community of thought and belief and to a political league against the white man. Missionaries—Engh'sh, French, and German—are still loth to teach the people among whom they dwell a European language. This reluctance on their part is undoubtedly based on a dread that by initiating the people into a means of communication with the European world they will emancipate them too quickly from pastoral control. But all the time that they delay to take this step Kiswahili spreads, and the Bantu Negro, impelled by the inevitable course of events to interest himself in regions beyond his tribal district, will, if he cannot associate himself rapidly with European interests, begin to think and talk of a Bantu nationality.
quote: In Southern Africa the true negro is not found, and from the Equator to the Cape the continent is mainly populated by the various negroid branches of the great Bantu-speaking stock. The Bantu hordes, emigrating at various periods from the north of the Zambesi, possessed themselves of all the richer lands that were occupied by the aboriginal Hottentots and Bushmen. The Bantus are distinguished for their fine physique, notably in the case of the Zulus. Many of them are handsome, even from the European standpoint, with aqueline features and sometimes a complexion not darker than that of Southern Europeans. They -are a pastoral and agricultural people, breeding cattle in immense quantities, and cultivating cerials, principally mealies (maize) and Kaffir corn (millet). The Bantus are capable of a considerable degree of civilization, and their mental and moral qualities are higher than those of any negro race
quote: The Negro heads the list. He presents himself in two vast regions, and, perhaps, in two branches. If we accept the distinction between the Sudanese Negro and the Bantu, we find the Negro proper in vast Sudan, the Negro-like Bantu south of the tenth parallel of north latitude. Of these twin brothers, the Bantu is generally rated above the Sudanese; but not a few authorities think more highly of the latter, and much by historians and scientists is adduced in his favor.
In the development of Africa the Bantu is the weightiest native factor. His language is a speech whose dialects—through derivation forming a common original—are so analogous in type, that the Kongoan of West Africa, the Swahili of the eastern coast, the Ugandan of the Lakes, and the Zulu of the south, have little difficulty in understanding each other. The meaning of this momentous fact will make itself clearer when it is recalled that Kongo and Zululand are thousands of miles apart, and that for centuries the Kongolese and the Kaffir have had no intercourse. Yet, in 1890, to express the idea differently, the Zulus in Stanley's expedition quickly found themselves able to converse easily with Bantu natives of the districts around Lake Albert Edward.
The beauty, plastic power and richness of the Bantu languages amaze scholars. Their principle of alliterative concordance between the parts of speech is in itself a most astonishing phenomenon. Their flexibility, pliancy and softness are almost limitless; their grammatical principles founded on the most philosophical and systematic basis; their vocabularies susceptible of infinite expansion, offering an opportunity for the expression of the most delicate shadings of elevated thought and Christian feeling.
Livingstone characterized men who complained of the alleged severity of the Bantu languages as proving themselves paupers in attainment. The breadth of the domain over which the Bantu languages extend their sway; their unexceeded capability of definite- ness 'and precision, unsurpassable power of forming derivatives— not even Greek or German surpassing in this faculty—and subtlety of idea and wealth of expression, will cause the Bantu and his speech to become of measureless importance to the future of Christianity and civilization. Zulu, Swahili and Ngolan, or Mbun- du, form the English tongue of their respective spheres.
These, respectively, for the South, the East and the West, are the representative and standard languages. The Bantu unity in variety, plasticity and power of growth constitute ground for hope that the best elements of the best languages may be embodied in a classic, a complete and single speech. Zulu, by the survival of the philologically fittest, has for a century been displacing its neighbors. To aid Swahili and Angolan, peaceably in such a linguistic trend, that the fifty million Bantu of the coming century shall speak one speech, chaste and simple, expressive, rich and strong, is among the high callings of the Christian missionary. For the realization of this ideal, the translation of the Scriptures into the Bantu vernaculars is the supreme means and opportunity.
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r1b1* in bantu hell yes so now the europeans r1b have negro cousins in africa i know its a diffrent vertions and clade of r1b in europe but they are stll conected to them more than they are to haplogroup I europeans isnt science fun e3b1c1
posted
This is why I prefer using the actual defining mutation prefixed by the single letter designating its major clade.
The tree names will continue to change with time but the defining mutation will remain the same.
E-M81 will always be E-M81, but E3b2 is now E1b1b1b and before then was E3b1b and who knows what its next phylogenetic name will be.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ No. Not the same haplotype. Again we have different labeling terminologies in use which create confusion. see...
quote:these chromosomes presumably "belonging to" R1b1* may actually be clusters of those dubbed "R1*-M173", which lacked downstream mutations that are assigned to either R1b or R1a
- Explorer.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Markellion, Your citations(from where) seem almost Seligmanesque, whose fanciful descriptions of Africans as having verying degrees of Hamitic ancestry as in the case of the so-called Bantu.
The point is that it is a serious error to connect up the languages that classify as "bantu" with large population movements.
The sly assumption on the part of Eurocentrics when they speak of the Bantu people is that most of Africa below the equator was practically uninhabited until the so-called Bantus invaded those areas even after the Europeans moved into Southern Africa.
This theory is, of course, bogus. The likely truth is that the Bantu language complex spread among the people already living in Southern Africa and partially imposed itself on the indigenous languages of those areas. In much the same way that Latin and Greek imposed themselves on the basic languages of Western Europe especially those areas of the so-called Romance languages. For example, the languages spoken by the Angles and Saxons is minimally connected to modern English. The same for the indigenous languages of France--Gallic and Frankish--and modern French.
One sees the same thing now in Africa with Hausa, Mandinka, Arabic and Swahili. That is, a language may spread without its original speakers spreading with it.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Interesting how the keyboard fake scholars like rasol, The "MA DICK" Explorer, and Al "fake jew" alTakruri avoid the questions that call into question the terminology that their euro owners have sodomized their minds with.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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Bantu is another eurocentric ruse to claim that Africa was originally a white land.
I have seen textbooks, that's right textbooks; that tacticly try to passively insinuate that "north, south, and east" Africa were invaded by "bantu negroes" and that is the reason why the Africans in those areas are no longer "white" or are "variably mixed negroids".
They are trying to plant the seed that most of Africa was white and the so called "bantus" altered the population.
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quote:Of these twin brothers, the Bantu is generally rated above the Sudanese; but not a few authorities think more highly of the latter, and much by historians and scientists is adduced in his favor.
quote:The Bantus are capable of a considerable degree of civilization, and their mental and moral qualities are higher than those of any negro race
quote:Originally posted by argyle104: Bantu is another eurocentric ruse to claim that Africa was originally a blackland.
I have seen textbooks, that's right textbooks; that tacticly try to passively insinuate that "north, south, and east" Africa were invaded by "bantu mixed with Hamite negroes" and that is the reason why the Africans in those areas are no longer "Negro" or are "variably mixed negroids".
They are trying to plant the seed that most of Africa was Negro and the so called "bantus" altered the population.
Lamin I put links to what I posted the point of what I posted wasn't that it was true it was that Bantu was used originally used for the polar opposite of the more modern textbooks argyle was talking about. You can tell from reading it its from the colonial era there is an evolution of the idea of Bantu and understanding racist anthropology is an evolving thing makes it easier in unraveling it
Also I want to point out it wasn't thought that most African societies were at the same level of Apes. It was common knowledge that iron age cultures existed all over the continent and "developed considerable culture". The idea of Europeans bringing the majority of Africa out of the stone age is a more modern idea
----- About the idea of people from distant parts of Africa even thousands of miles apart being able to speak with each other that seems absurd but a number of people seemed adamant that it was true. Is there any reality to this?
quote:The meaning of this momentous fact will make itself clearer when it is recalled that Kongo and Zululand are thousands of miles apart, and that for centuries the Kongolese and the Kaffir have had no intercourse. Yet, in 1890, to express the idea differently, the Zulus in Stanley's expedition quickly found themselves able to converse easily with Bantu natives of the districts around Lake Albert Edward.
I take it from your post altering that your powdery colored ass got high on some crystal meth and decided to type the keyboard with your 2 in. ding-a-ling, thus the reason your quote is full of errors.
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Markellion, You will note that the abstract of the article states that the "Bantu expansion" was demographic and was quite rapid.
My reply was that there was no real evidence of a big demographic expansion of Bantu speakers from what is now called the Cameroon to most of Africa southward.
There is a racist background assumption to all this--which the authors of the articles may not be aware of. This assumption has been so normalised that most Euro anthropologists operate on the basis of that pseudo-racial paradigm. Let us note again that humans as Africans began in Africa between 200K and 160K years ago, therefore there has been enough time for humans to have migrated to all parts of the continent dating from several thousands of years ago--and not just recently. If the humans who migrated out Africa were able to go as far as the southern tip of South America just by land and sea travel(possibly) what was there to stop them travelling to all corners of Africa.
But the pseudo-racial template that is implicitly at work in some quarters is the following: 1)Africa developed technologically in ancient times because some "caucasoid Hamitic race" invaded the continent and spread itself among its indigenous inhabitants of which substantial portion was categorised as "true negro". 2) it was this overlay of Hamitic genetics on the "true negro" substratum that produced the Bantu people--who spread Hamiticism in varying degrees throughout the whole Southern part of the continent. Any phenotypical deviation from the supposed "true negro" phenotype was supposed to be derived from Hamitic(i.e. caucasoid) sources. This also was used to explain what Euro anthropologists saw as differences among African cultures in terms of technologies and social structures.
This paradigm is but one aspect of Eurocentrism: the theory that states explicitly and implicitly that Euro cultures and Euro intellect are naturally superior to others in the world--ranging from political structures[African identity--continental or otherwise-- in terms of nationality and Africanity has been determined by Eurocentric agency], economic ideas, clothing styles[even the long historied Chinese have adopted Western clothing for official matters], names, aesthetic standards[Miss Universe and Miss World constests are not much more than exercises in an agencied Eurocentrism: they decide when to given a token pass to a "woman of colour"], matters of morality and justice[human rights, international justice, etc. have all been relegated to Eurocentric agency to be arbitrated on--as in the ICC and ICJ, etc.], intellectual matters[Eurocentrism decides who gets what international prize--whether for intellectual or peace work], etc.
It is for this reason that the authors speak of a large demographic displacement in rapid time.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
You raise an important point. These researchers claim that the Bantu expansion originated in Cameroon. This is illogical to say the least. baed on the "greatest diversity" theory since there are varied Bantu languages in a certain region this must be the region for the origin of this or that language.
This is a false analogy. It is false because if the Niger-Congo languages were originally spoken in Nubia, and we see the introduction of many Niger Congo speakers into West Africa from the Libya and thence Cameroon, Mauritania and etc., the probably spread of the bantu languages was from Nubia into southern Africa and beyond.
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Marcs thread explains why. LGM-Isolations and migration across the Strait.
quote: r1b1* in bantu hell yes so now the europeans r1b have negro cousins in africa i know its a diffrent vertions and clade of r1b in europe but they are stll conected to them more than they are to haplogroup I europeans isnt science fun e3b1c1
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
This why phenotype means very little . . .so what is a "race". Plus we know very little on how haplo-group lineage affects phenotype.
What the original R1b1* looked like is anyones guess.
quote: ======== i know its a different vertions and clade of r1b in europe but they are stll conected to them more than they are to haplogroup I europeans
==========
@ my boy -- see - - -If they do enough testing results will R* blazing a trail from Central Africa strait to the Iberian penn and another through the Levant.
ANNNNNDDD HG-I are the where the pale skin derived. The R-derives are . . . . mutts. The Refugee during the LGM (on the Iberians side)were black people
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:gaygoyle squeals: It seems there are those who wish to avoid explaining why they are using a eurocentric term which is essentially a substitute for the debunked "negroid" race classification.
Actually the etymology of 'bantu' is NOT eurocentric even though it was coined by a European but the word is very much rooted in the very language of the natives. It's use as a synonym for 'negroid' is non other than a misuse by white racists
quote:But I know that cannot be the case since these people think of themselves as scholars and intellectuals so again I will ask:
Actually the case (as is usual) is that you are wrong and yes we are scholars and intellectuals all but you and your boyfriend assopen that is.
quote:What is a "Bantu"?
'Bantu' is a compound word from 'Ba' meaning 'all' and 'ntu' meaning 'peoples' both words are found in virtually all 'Bantu' languages and is perhaps the ONLY linguistic name given by Europeans that is actually based on the languages of the native peoples they describe!
quote:Why is there no ethnic group of people in Africa named "Bantu"?
Because moron, the term is a very inclusive linguistic term describing the languages of hundreds of ethnic groups in Sub-Saharan Africa all at once! Many of which share many language features such as certain words such as 'ba' and 'ntu'. Many groups for instance have have 'Ba' as a prefix before their names such as the Ba-Hutu or the Ba-Tutsi!
quote:Who created the term "Bantu" to refer to a group of Africans? What was his ethnicity?
The term was created by linguist Wilhelm Heinrich Immanuel Bleek, and he was German. Again, he coined term from the native tongues of the African peoples he sought to linguistically describe. The term is not negative or disparaging in any way no more than the term 'Germanic' is to German speakers since before the invention of that term no Germanic speakers referred to themselves as 'Germanic'!
quote:Why are you people using that term from that individual?
Because it is a term that is linguistically and overall scholarly valid in every way and even created from the native languages of the African peoples it describes! It is NOT a racial term but is only misused as such by racists!
Of course we as well educated scholars know all of this, but YOU don't even though this was explained to you before!
So STFU, you white euro-degenerate and stop pretending to 'defend' Africans!
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by e3b1c1: r1b1* in bantu hell yes so now the europeans r1b have negro cousins in africa i know its a diffrent vertions and clade of r1b in europe but they are stll conected to them more than they are to haplogroup I europeans isnt science fun e3b1c1
LOL As usual you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about! We already debunked your nonsense claims here! I suggest you stick to that topic of E1b1b which you think you know about (which you really don't) or just leave the topic of genetics altoghther!
Yes science is fun, but only for those you understand it! That excludes you! Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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He has snidely made derogatory comments that "this isn't BET" to African Americans when he was complaining about their presence on this forum.
He has made jokes about the hair of black women. (Some of you may have read me calling him out on his sick attack)
He has said that "Africans south of the sahara haven't accomplished anything".
He has said that "Africans were until recently primarily slaves throughout the world". He also gets outright angry when anyone provides evidence that proves his mentally ill beliefs are wrong, much in the same way that racists do when someone shows them what the Ancient Egyptians looked like from their actual paintings.
He has said that if "west" Africans are "light skinned" they must be mixed with whites or some other group.
He has said that if African Americans are "light skinned" they must be mixed with whites or some other group.
He has said that the only place that had blacks is Africa and there are no blacks in his country and he is "certainly unequivacally not black".
These are just a few examples of Djehuti's racist rhetoric.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
Also interesting is that "Bantu" has no real in meaning in terms of location, etc unlike other so called language groups. It was selected because it is only two syllables and he believed it sounds "African".
When will whites allow any of you nothings to make up terms describing them?
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
Hey guys,sorry for butting in on a genetics thread with a lingustic question,but the "ntu",isn't it the same "Tu",the ancient Kemetu used?I mean both "TU" and "NTU" meaning people?
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
djehuti i saw that link you gave i sse they change the map now my clade is in it now thats great e1b1b1b the chosen race suprieor to others at the sea had balls many left africa e3b1c1
quote:Originally posted by ackee: Hey guys,sorry for butting in on a genetics thread with a lingustic question,but the "ntu",isn't it the same "Tu",the ancient Kemetu used?I mean both "TU" and "NTU" meaning people?
posted
Again ntu means universal being. ntu forms the root of words with not even a remote association to human beings.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: An excellent informative post DJ! Just one thing to fine tune.
I'm not so sure ntu means a black human. The concept has something more to do with that of universal being.
Well I never said 'ntu' meant a black human but human period. So I guess that is the same as 'universal being'. Unlike his racist peers, Wilhelm H. I. Bleek when creating the term was respectful enough not only to use words from the native tongues but in forming a name that would be fitting. He knew 'ntu' meant people in many of the Bantu languages and he knew 'Ba' was a prefix for many ethnic groups meaning all. So 'Bantu' meant 'all-people' or 'all-human beings'. As such, it is a linguistic term fully accepted by the native people it describes. Any layperson who does basic research would know this, and only IDIOTS like Argay who don't have a clue about African culture and history think 'Bantu' is a racial term, only because racist Afrikaaners used it as such as another epithet for "negroe"!
And now look at the euro-fag posing as 'black' hating on me a lil ol Asian-American just for knowing such a basic fact of African culture. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by e3b1c1: djehuti i saw that link you gave i sse they change the map now my clade is in it now thats great e1b1b1b the chosen race suprieor to others at the sea had balls many left africa e3b1c1
And I see you still don't know what you're talking about. I'll get back to you in your silly Somalid Greeks thread. In the meantime, shut up!
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Again,sorry to Evergreen and others,but Bantu means What exactly? most people say it means the people.Ba or Ban=the and tu = people? I am really sorry If I am screwing this up Altkruri and DJ So what is ntr? And what is Tu? so Bantu means the universial beings? please be patient I really don't know. Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
Anyway, getting back to the acutal topic...
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: Molecular Biology and Evolution, doi:10.1093/molbev/msp069
Genetic and demographic implications of the Bantu expansion: insights from human paternal lineages
Gemma Berniell-Lee et al.
Abstract
The expansion of Bantu languages, which started around 5,000 years before present (YBP) in west/central Africa and spread all throughout sub-Saharan Africa, may represent one of the major and most rapid demographic movements in the history of the human species. Although the genetic footprints of this expansion have been unmasked through the analyses of the maternally-inherited mitochondrial (mtDNA) lineages, information on the genetic impact of this massive movement and on the genetic composition of pre-Bantu populations is still scarce. Here we analyze an extensive collection of Y-chromosome markers - 41 SNPs and 18 STRs - in 883 individuals from 22 Bantu-speaking agriculturalist populations and 3 Pygmy hunter-gatherer populations from Gabon and Cameroon. Our data reveal a recent origin for most paternal lineages in west Central African populations most likely resulting from the expansion of Bantu-speaking farmers that erased the more ancient Y-chromosome diversity found in this area. However, some traces of ancient paternal lineages are observed in these populations, mainly among hunter-gatherers. These results are at odds with those obtained from mtDNA analyses, where high frequencies of ancient maternal lineages are observed, and substantial maternal gene flow from hunter-gatherers to Bantu farmers has been suggested. These differences are most likely explained by socio-cultural factors such as patrilocality. We also find the intriguing presence of paternal lineages belonging to Eurasian haplogroup R1b1*, which might represent footprints of demographic expansions in central Africa not directly related to the Bantu expansion.
This is not really new news is it? I mean weren't there studies presented before which show pre-Bantu lineages such as paternal A, B, and even DE??
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: These chromosomes presumably "belonging to" R1b1* may actually be clusters of those dubbed "R1*-M173", which lacked downstream mutations that are assigned to either R1b or R1a; the way the authors framed their statement may give a misleading impression of these having been tested positive for M343 rather than just M173 (R1*), unless of course, it is specifically demonstrated so in the study at hand. The R1*-M173 were determined to lack M343 in studies that had actually also tested for M343 UEP. So...*unless* these are newly uncovered derivatives which are more downstream than the aforementioned M173 chromosomes but yet more upstream than "Eurasian" clusters of R1b1, which would make these chromosomes a new addition to the index of unique R1* chromosomes in Africa, then I suspect what is being alluded to here, are actually R1*-M173 clusters rather than R1b1*. Anyway, a more complete examination of the study will make it clearer what is going on here.
Yes, I was about to say the same thing. How did they mistake R1b1 for R1*??
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ackee: Again,sorry to Evergreen and others,but Bantu means What exactly? most people say it means the people.Ba or Ban=the and tu = people? I am really sorry If I am screwing this up Altkruri and DJ So what is ntr? And what is Tu? so Bantu means the universial beings? please be patient I really don't know.
Can you not read what I wrote about it??
'Ba' means 'all' and is used by many Bantu speaking groups as a prefix in the name of their ethnic group. For example, the Tutsi refer to their people as a whole as 'Ba-Tutsi'. 'Ntu' means people or humans. So 'Ba-Ntu' or Bantu means 'all-people' or 'all-humans'. It has nothing to do with the Kemetwy (Egyptian) word Ntr meaning divinity or gods.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:NTU is the universal force as such, which, however, never occurs apart from its manifestations: Muntu, Kintu, Hantu and Kuntu. NTU is Being itself, the cosmic universal force, which only modern, rationalizing thought can abstract from its manifestations. NTU is that force in which Being and beings coalesce. NTU is-so we may say by way of suggestion that Something which Breton probably had in mind when he wrote: 'Everything leads us to believe that there exists a central point of thought at which living and dead, real and imaginary, past and future, communicable and incommunicable, high and low, are no longer conceived of as contradictory.' NTU is that 'point from which creation flows' that Klee was seeking: 'I am seeking a far off point from which creation flows, where I suspect there is a formula for man,beast, plant, earth, fire, water, air and all circling forces at once.'
But in NTU Breton's contradictions have never existed, nor is it something 'far away'. If we said that NTU was a force manifesting itself in man, beast, thing, place, time, beauty, ugliness, laughter, tears, and so on, this statement would be false, for it would imply that NTU was something independent beyond all these things. NTU is what Muntu, Kintu, Hantu and Kuntu all equally are. Force and matter are not being united in this conception; on the contrary, they have never been apart.
NTU expresses, not the effect of these forces, but their being.
In other words, alTakuri is pretty much correct. It seems to be an allusion to all things manifest, all things subject to this unifying force (which merely includes human beings).. The concept is pretty deep.
posted
That's incorrect. For the final time come to learn and understand n-t-u is a root meaning universal being. Not only does baNtu NOT mean "all humans," speakers of those languages never use it in reference to white human beings.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by ackee: Again,sorry to Evergreen and others,but Bantu means What exactly? most people say it means the people.Ba or Ban=the and tu = people? I am really sorry If I am screwing this up Altkruri and DJ So what is ntr? And what is Tu? so Bantu means the universial beings? please be patient I really don't know.
Can you not read what I wrote about it??
'Ba' means 'all' and is used by many Bantu speaking groups as a prefix in the name of their ethnic group. For example, the Tutsi refer to their people as a whole as 'Ba-Tutsi'. 'Ntu' means people or humans. So 'Ba-Ntu' or Bantu means 'all-people' or 'all-humans'. It has nothing to do with the Kemetwy (Egyptian) word Ntr meaning divinity or gods.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Good looking Sundjata. African philosophy is indeed deep. I first learned of ntu from the saxophonist Gary Bartz and his then group the Ntu Troupe on the stellar Harlem Bush Music albums Taifa and Uhuru perhaps best summed in the track Celestial Blues (please listen)
At the time I used Mbiti's African Philosophy to further understand the meaning of ntu and always have wondered at the dumbed down over simplistic definition almost always given for ntu.
Of course we have Kagemi to thank for exposing us to ntu's true meaning and the powerful philosophy concentrated in that litte three letter word. It may be Senghor who has the most interesting comments on Kagemi's breakdown of ntu.
Then for all of us who know we are black, whether blue-black or nally-yally or anywhere in between and not ashamed to admit we are black regardles of continental origin or of any island in the seas, our message to others on where we take stand on our self direction Uhuru Sasa (lyrics begin 1:07 into the piece).
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: Was just reading about this:
quote:NTU is the universal force as such, which, however, never occurs apart from its manifestations: Muntu, Kintu, Hantu and Kuntu. NTU is Being itself, the cosmic universal force, which only modern, rationalizing thought can abstract from its manifestations. NTU is that force in which Being and beings coalesce. NTU is-so we may say by way of suggestion that Something which Breton probably had in mind when he wrote: 'Everything leads us to believe that there exists a central point of thought at which living and dead, real and imaginary, past and future, communicable and incommunicable, high and low, are no longer conceived of as contradictory.' NTU is that 'point from which creation flows' that Klee was seeking: 'I am seeking a far off point from which creation flows, where I suspect there is a formula for man,beast, plant, earth, fire, water, air and all circling forces at once.'
But in NTU Breton's contradictions have never existed, nor is it something 'far away'. If we said that NTU was a force manifesting itself in man, beast, thing, place, time, beauty, ugliness, laughter, tears, and so on, this statement would be false, for it would imply that NTU was something independent beyond all these things. NTU is what Muntu, Kintu, Hantu and Kuntu all equally are. Force and matter are not being united in this conception; on the contrary, they have never been apart.
NTU expresses, not the effect of these forces, but their being.
In other words, alTakuri is pretty much correct. It seems to be an allusion to all things manifest, all things subject to this unifying force (which merely includes human beings).. The concept is pretty deep.
posted
OK,thanks guys.now for some other comparisons,ah wait a min.you know what? will take these questions to the Egyptology side,wrong thread for this,see ya on WallY's language thread.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: Evergreen Writes:
I am sceptical of the whole R1b1* in ancient Africa theory. If R1b1b* has been present in Africa with this kind of time-depth one would expect to see sub-lineage differentiation.
Then how do you suppose it got there? I would guess either Trans-Saharan trade or colonialism.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: That's incorrect. For the final time come to learn and understand n-t-u is a root meaning universal being. Not only does baNtu NOT mean "all humans," speakers of those languages never use it in reference to white human beings.
So by "universal" I guess you mean something like 'primary' or 'ideal' and not as in 'common'??... If that is the case then it would make sense not to refer to whites as Ntu unless it is a worldview system similar to say Masai who actually view whites as unhuman.
I know 'Ba' means 'all' and is usually the prefix before an ethnic name. Thanks for the correction.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
^ You're the one who is dumb by the very fact you still have the nerve to post on this forum. Your futile attempt to maintain that you're not who I say you are.
But not to worry, keep posting, keep digging , I'm building you a cage right now and when I finish, I'll come and find you exactly where you live.
You and your whole gang will soon be in the Newspapers. The fame that you crave, you'll soon get it. I promise.Posts: 1819 | From: odesco baba | Registered: Feb 2005
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