Zbyněk Žába, The rock inscriptions of Lower Nubia, (Universita Karlova, Praha, 11974), figure 115. This book I saw at the University of Pennsylvania Museum Library, call number GN.865.N82.Z273.
If I am not mistaken, there are actually many inscriptions in that book. At least a dozen and those shown are in good quality. Time hasn't worn them away.
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posted
I'm no expert but what's labeled "nubian hieroglyphics" above clearly seems to be Egyptian Hieroglyphs. The tablet may not in pristine condition but most of the characters are still recognizably Egyptian.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
yeah, It looks Egyptian in part. But there is some data backing up the notion of Egyptian writing preceding that of other nations. -------------
Linguistic writing systems and population movements. The southern area of the Nile Valley not only produced advanced material culture and political organization but also pioneered in the advancement of learning and communication via writing, contradicting claims of an outside Mediterranean or Mesopotamian influx responsible for such developments. In 1998 a German archaeological team under scholar Günter Dreyer, head of the German Archaeological Institute, excavated tombs associated with the Naqada culture and retrieved hundreds of clay artifacts inscribed with proto-hieroglyphs, dating to the 33rd century BC.[151] Of Dreyer's finds, Archaeology Magazine states that they
"...challenge the commonly held belief that early logographs, pictographic symbols representing a specific place, object, or quantity, first evolved into more complex phonetic symbols in Mesopotamia." [152]
The early examples appear to have been building blocks for later development into the full complex of hieroglyphs for inscribing the ancient Egyptian language,[153] showing a measure of continuity into the period of the pharaohs. According to Dreyer, these continuities provide evidence that the writing used later by Egyptian kingships developed gradually in the native environment.
"Most of them are documents, records of linen and oil delivered to the King Scorpion, taxes, short notes, numbers, lists of kings' names, and names of institutions.. The writing is in the form of line drawings of animals, plants and mountains and is the earliest evidence that hieroglyphics used by later-day Pharaonic dynasties did not rise as phoenix from the ashes but developed gradually.. Although the Egyptian writing is in the form of symbols it can be called true writing because each symbol stands for a consonant and makes up syllables. In principle Ancient Egyptians were able to express themselves clearly.."[154]
According to mainstream Egyptologist Kent Weeks, professor of Egyptology at the American University in Cairo, Dreyer's data suggests "one of the greatest discoveries in history of writing and ancient Egyptian culture."[155]
Dreyer has moved beyond his early findings to pose a separate, speculative hypothesis- that the Egyptians were the first in the world to develop systematic writing as opposed to the commonly held view that the Mesopotamians did.[156] Some Egyptian archaeology authorities appear to support Dreyer's hypothesis of Egyptian primacy. According to a 1999 statement by one Gaballa Ali Gaballa, secretary-general of the Egyptian Supreme Council of Antiquities:
"The earliest known Sumerian writings date back to 3000BC while the German team's find shows that Abydos inscriptions date to 3400BC. The first Pharaonic dynasty began in 2920BC with King Menes. The earliest known writing in Dynasty Zero is much earlier than the oldest writing discovered in Mesopotamia." [157]
Notes
151 ^ Gunter Dreyer, Umm El-Quaab I-Das pradynastische Konigsgrab U-j and seine fruhen Schriftzeugnisse (1998)- translation: Umm El-Quaab I-The Predynastic Royal Tomb U-j and Its Early Writing-Evidence]; see also Allen, James Paul. 2000. Middle Egyptian: An Introduction to the Language and Culture of Hieroglyphs. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, pp. 1-20
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote: yeah, It looks Egyptian in part. But there is some data backing up the notion of Egyptian writing preceding that of other nations.
The writing on that tablet, purportedly "Nubian Hieroglyphics", looks completely Egyptian to me.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
The Egyptians also used several syllabic scripts in addition to hieroglyphics: Demotic and Hieratic.
Hieratic
Thinite
The ancient Saharans/Egyptians also wrote inscriptions in Thinite. This Thinite syllabic writing was later used to make the Libyco-Berber, Indus Valley, Proto-Sumerian, Linear Elamite , Minoan Linear A and Mande scripts such as Vai.
Here is a Libyco-Berber inscription from Oued Mertoutek
The C-Group and A-Group people and other Saharans prefered to use the syllabic scripts.
Here is a Ta-Seti inscription from Qustul
In addition to the ancient Libyco-Berber script, we see a beautiful inscription from Gebel Sheikh.
Williams (1987) and Trigger (1980) have failed to discuss the entire inscription on the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman relief. These scholars ignore the Proto-Saharan inscription, and describe only, the relief from left to right as follows: a serekh topped by a falcon looking over a victorious battlefield, sacred bark and a bound prisoner .
In reality we find more than these figures on the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman inscription which appears to date back to the A-Group period of Nubia over 5000 years ago. This is obvious when we examine the photograph of the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman relief.From left to right on this relief we see a falcon on a serekh sign surmounting a house/ palace. In front of this village/ palace scene we see a prisoner bound by Stj bow ( the sign for the Steu).
Facing the prisoner bound by Stj bow ( the sign for the Steu). Facing the prisoner bound by the stj sign we see a bird over a circle with the letter X inside. Besides this scene we have another bird setting a top the letter X within the circle sign facing a victorious battle scene which includes a man bound to a sacred bark. Over the sacred bark we find 21 Proto-Saharan signs. These signs agree with the Egyptian pottery symbols (see figure 3).
The Gebel Sheikh Suleiman inscription is an obituary written about a king called Fe .As noted above Homburger found that the Manding languages are closely related to the Coptic language. Using the Manding language we can read the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman inscription.
Reading from right to left we read:
1. i gba lu2. fe kye nde
2 1/2. ka i lu
3. fe fe tu
4. be yu su (su su) tu
5. su se lu gbe
6. po gbe tu
Below is the translation of the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman inscription: "1. Thou family habitation, hold (it) upright. 2. Fe's estate (is on) the shore (of the watercourse). 2 1/2. Cut thou (sepulchre) habitation for the family (here). 3. Fe preferred to be obedient to the order. 4. Lay low the (celebrity) in the large hemisphere tomb (and) offer up libations that merit upright virtue.6. Pure righteousness (is) King (Fe).
"This King Fe, of Gebel Sheikh Suleiman, may relate to Pharoah Pe-Hor (Throne of Horus) since in African languages /f/ and /p/ are often interchangeable. It is interesting to note that there is an inscription on a storage jar from Cemetery L of Qustul, Nubia that reads Pe-Hor (Williams 1987, p. 164). This Pe-Hor may be the Fe, of the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman inscription.
Here is another inscription from Gebel Sheikh Suleiman
As you can see from the above there is more to African literacy than the picture presented by Eurocentrists.
It is evident that although hieroglyphics were very popular among Egyptians, Africans also used syllabic writing systems to express themselves.
posted
The rock inscriptions above that Marc Washington gives as an example of "undeciphered Nubian hieroglyph" is garden variety Egyptian hieroglpyh.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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The ancient African inscriptions make it clear that outside Egypt, Africans preferred to use syllabic writin as indicated by the Thinite inscriptions, and Oued Mertoutek and Gebel Shiekh Suleiman inscriptions. This fact is also made clear by the Seth Inscription.
It appears that in ancient times before the rise of Egypt, Seth was worshiped by people in the Sahara. Recently a very interesting inscription has been found that relate to this worship.
The symbols on the engraving are written in the so-called Libyco-Berber writing which is really made up of Mande signs. Using the Vai signs we are able to read the inscriptions in the Malinke-Bambara language.
On the left side we see a figure of a cannine and on the right we have a figure of Seth. Reading the inscriptions from right to left I will decipher the writing.
Under the cannine figure we have: Be tu a ka na or "To exist obedient to the order in joy [with the] Mother".
Reading the inscriptions under the Seth figure we have reading the inscription from right to left: i lu i gyo fa yo gyo, or " Thou hold upright this divinity of the cult, [our] Father, the vital spirit of the society consecrated to (Seth's) cult".
This figure is important in relation to the Western Sahara and the Seth cult. Michael Rice, in Egypt's Making: The Origin of Ancient Egypt 5000-2000 BC, makes it clear that Seth was the god of the Southern people and that Anubis (the canine god) was the protector of the people of the South.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
The problem with the title of this thread is that Western alphabet is derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs but Egyptian hieroglyphs originated in so-called 'Nubia'!
Remember the proto-hieroglyphs of Sayalah and Qustul??..
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Yes. The very language we are typing with right now has its origins in a black written language. When the whole world finally sees that the Egyptians were black they are gonna be seriously depressed.
Posts: 603 | From: Mobile, Alabama | Registered: Jan 2007
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Actually, the intentional confusion induced in the dual naming of the peoples (Nubian vs Egyptian) was always intended to sever “Egypt” from Africa so it could be called a "white" civilization and gratify a deceptive, lying ego and people; conversely, to deprive African peoples of pride-of-ownership thinking they were useless students rather than masterful teachers.
Which came first? The chicken or the egg!?
The implication of this is a tautology of sorts: (1) a black alphabet or (2) a black people who make the alphabet ... where whether we call them Nubians or Egyptians, they were one-in-the-same people who did one-in-the-same thing.
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Williams (1987) and Trigger (1980) have failed to discuss the entire inscription on the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman relief. These scholars ignore the Proto-Saharan inscription, and describe only, the relief from left to right as follows: a serekh topped by a falcon looking over a victorious battlefield, sacred bark and a bound prisoner .
In reality we find more than these figures on the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman inscription which appears to date back to the A-Group period of Nubia over 5000 years ago.
That is a super-sharp observation and drives the nail into the coffin: Nubians are Egyptians who created hieroglyphics and continued alphabet creation in Nubian script.
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This might be proof that the various forms of Egyptian writing preceded from Nubian; likely even by Nubians of the literati who merged with and evidently taught so-called Egyptian elite.
Western alphabets did indeed come from Nubians. And likely what we look at as Merotic is not a Nubian derivative of Egyptian but Nubian work that modified their original alphabet and writing of predynastic "EgyNubia."
posted
The Greek alphabet had nothing to do with Egyptian writing.
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The Minoan writing or Linear A is of African origin. This form of writing was used by the Proto-Sumerians, Harappans, Olmecs and Libyco-Berber people. It is the same scrpt used by the Mande speaking people who founded Minoan civilization.
I discuss the African origin of the Minoan language and decipher a few text here The Minoan Language
Some of the first African colonists to arrive in Greece came from Crete. These Cretans were called Garamantes. After the goddess Ker or Car, these people also came to be also known as the Carians. The Carians spoke a Mande languages.
These people usually sailed to the Islands in Aegean and the surrounding coast were they established prosperous trading communities.
There is frequent mention of the Garamantes of the Fezzan, in Classical literature of Greece and Rome. The Garamantes were recognized as a Black tribe. They were known to the Greeks and Romans as dark skinned. In Ptolemy (I.8.5.,p.31) a Garamante slave was described as having a body the color of pitch or wholly black.
Graves (1980) and Leo Frobenius linked the Garamante to the ancient empire of Ghana (c.300 BC to A.D. 1100). Graves (1980) claims that the term Garamante is the Greek plural for Garama or Garamas. He said that the present Jarama or Jarma are the descendants of the Garamante; and that the Jarama live near the Niger river. The Garamante or Garamande spoke a Mande language.
The Olympian creation myth, as recorded by Pindar in Fragment , and Apollonius Rhodius, makes it clear that the Garamantes early colonized Greece. Their descendants were called Carians. The Carians practiced apiculture. As in Africa the Carians practiced matrilineal descent. According to Herodotus , even up until his time the Carians took the name of their mother.
Many of the Greek myths are historical text which discuss the transition of Greece from an matriarchal society to a patriarchal Aryan society. The term Amazon was often used by the Aryans to denote matriarchal societies living on the Black Sea. The battle between Thesus and the Amazons, led by Queen Melanippe, records the conflicts between the ancient Aryan-Greeks and the Libyco-Nubians settled around the Black Sea.
The classical Carians and Egyptians were very close. Having originated in the Fertile African Crescent they had similar gods and cultural traditions dating back to the Proto-Saharan period.
The Garamantes founded Attica, where they worked the mines at Laureium. Demeter, the goddess of agriculture and fruitfulness, came from the Fezzan (Libya) by way of Crete. It was Demeter who took poppy seeds and figs to Europe.
Apollonius Rhodius (.iv.1310) tells us that the goddess Athene was born beside Lake Triton in Libya. The goddess Athene, was called Neith by the Egyptians and Nia by the Cretans in Linear A writing. This shows that the Garamantes took this god to Europe in addition to Demeter and Amon (=Ammon ,Amma).
By 3000 BC, the Garamantes has spread their influence to Thrace and early Hellenic Greece. Hesiod, who was a Kadmean (i.e., of Egyptian descent), in Works and Days , said that before the Hellenic invasion the Grecian people lived in peace and tranquility and had matriarchal societies. The name Europe comes from Aerope, the daughter of King Catreus, a Cretan.
Thucydides observed that: "The first person known to us by tradition as havingestablished a navy is Minos. He made himself master of what is now called the Hellenic sea, and ruled over the Cyclades into most of which he sent the first colonies,expelling the Carians and appointing his own sons as governors; and thus did his best to put down piracy in these waters, a necessary step to secure the revenues for his own use".
Thus we find that many Cretans also settled much of mainland southern Europe.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: <strong> The Greek alphabet had nothing to do with Egyptian writing.
Greek Writing from Knossos to Homer: A Linguistic Interpretation of the Origin of the Greek Alphabet and the Continuity of Ancient Greek Literacy (Hardcover) by Roger D. Woodard Roger D. Woodard (Author) › Visit Amazon's Roger D. Woodard Page Find all the books, read about the author, and more. See search results for this author Are you an author? Learn about Author Central (Author) Key Phrases: plenary spelling, orthographic strength, whose vocalic component, Greek Writing, Cypriot Syllabary, Morpurgo Davies (more...) 1 Review 5 star: (1) 4 star: (0) 3 star: (0) 2 star: (0) 1 star: (0)
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Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Linear A is not of African origin. Clyde, you discus the african origin of everything but most of it is nonsense. I suppose you could say they are connected because they are both writing. It is like saying the person who invented the wheel invented the automobile. In any even you also know that Minoan writing was NOT expressive. All it was really used for was a n accounting system. I have never heard so much distortion in my life.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:The problem with the title of this thread is that Western alphabet is derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs but Egyptian hieroglyphs originated in so-called 'Nubia'!
Remember the proto-hieroglyphs of Sayalah and Qustul??..
I agree that the earliest proto hieroglyphs were found at Nubian sites. I also agree that this is the provenance of Egyptian hieroglyphs. Ditto for the the claim that Egyptian hieroglyphs influenced the development of western alphabets. My problem with this thread is that Marc claims, and Winters did not disagree, that the rock inscriptions above represent Nubian hieroglyphs by which he means Meroitic hieroglyphs. I'm baffled by this because, even though the inscriptions are weathered, the signs that are legible seem to belong to Egyptian not Meroitic. The only exception I'd say is the M in the rightmost column which is shared by both writing systems. The W in the leftmost column definitely does not exist in Meroitic. There is also what is probably an F in the leftmost column that is not used in Meroitic. Futhermore the 4th character from the top in the 2nd column from the right seems to be the determinative for abstract concepts. Meroitic has no determinatives so if I'm correct, I could be wrong about all this, the inscription is purely what we understand to be Egyptian hieroglyphs.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
You guys are incredible. Some guy makes a mark on a rock in 50,000 BC and you equate that to inventing the Greek alphabet. This is the kind of warped logic used here to lie and distort. Western alphabets have nothing to do with anything that happened in Nubia.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Linear A is not of African origin. Clyde, you discus the african origin of everything but most of it is nonsense. I suppose you could say they are connected because they are both writing. It is like saying the person who invented the wheel invented the automobile. In any even you also know that Minoan writing was NOT expressive. All it was really used for was a n accounting system. I have never heard so much distortion in my life.
You are talking about Linear B, the writing your people learned from the Minoans who were not Indo-Europeans. You need to learn your history. It appears you are ignorant about the Eteo-Cretans (First Minoans) and the later Europeans who wrote in Linear B.
quote:Originally posted by Apocalypse: Djehuti wrote:
quote:The problem with the title of this thread is that Western alphabet is derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs but Egyptian hieroglyphs originated in so-called 'Nubia'!
Remember the proto-hieroglyphs of Sayalah and Qustul??..
I agree that the earliest proto hieroglyphs were found at Nubian sites. I also agree that this is the provenance of Egyptian hieroglyphs. Ditto for the the claim that Egyptian hieroglyphs influenced the development of western alphabets. My problem with this thread is that Marc claims, and Winters did not disagree, that the rock inscriptions above represent Nubian hieroglyphs by which he means Meroitic hieroglyphs. I'm baffled by this because, even though the inscriptions are weathered, the signs that are legible seem to belong to Egyptian not Meroitic. The only exception I'd say is the M in the rightmost column which is shared by both writing systems. The W in the leftmost column definitely does not exist in Meroitic. There is also what is probably an F in the leftmost column that is not used in Meroitic. Futhermore the 4th character from the top in the 2nd column from the right seems to be the determinative for abstract concepts. Meroitic has no determinatives so if I'm correct, I could be wrong about all this, the inscription is purely what we understand to be Egyptian hieroglyphs.
No one ever said this was Meroitic writing. The first Meroites wrote in Egyptian.
We are talking about the ancient writing systems used by Nubians which included all the above.
posted
The Ancient Egyptians gave the Phoenicians their hieroglyphic alphabet. The Phoenicians inspired the Greeks with their alphabet. Greeks passed it on to Romans. Romans took it to the rest of Europe. Therefore our modern day alphabet is of black Egyptian origin.
Posts: 603 | From: Mobile, Alabama | Registered: Jan 2007
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Some have drawn a distinction between predynastic Egyptians and Nubians. I believe it is a case of splitting hairs as they were both Negroes / Africans / Nubgyptians.
The following addition of so-called "Egyptians" (B2) to the racial mix of the first users of what became the Western alphabets is to be found on the web page at the top.
No matter which way you cut it, they were Negroes / black / African. Six of one. Half a dozen of the other.
And, I note for those who missed it (See bottom right corner of web page) that the "captive" hieroglyphic later to find its way into Gardiner's Egyptian Inscriptions was used in the Qustul Incense Burner at 3100 BC by Nubians.
That was earlier than the 3000 BC use of so-called Egyptians on the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman inscription found after 3000 BC - a least a century later and evidence that it was the "Egyptians" who learned the alphabet and writing from learned "Nubians" and not the other way around.
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Dr. Winters that's exactly what Marc is saying above and you know it. He labels the inscriptions pictured above "Nubian Hieroglyphs" then goes on to describe it as "the still undeciphered Nubian Hieroglyphs." He further suggests that the rock incriptions are a new Rosetta Stone. Is he claiming then that there is some other undeciphered writing in Nubia other than Meroitic and the above depiction is an instance of this other writing?
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Apocalypse: I agree that the earliest proto hieroglyphs were found at Nubian sites. I also agree that this is the provenance of Egyptian hieroglyphs. Ditto for the the claim that Egyptian hieroglyphs influenced the development of western alphabets. My problem with this thread is that Marc claims, and Winters did not disagree, that the rock inscriptions above represent Nubian hieroglyphs by which he means Meroitic hieroglyphs. I'm baffled by this because, even though the inscriptions are weathered, the signs that are legible seem to belong to Egyptian not Meroitic. The only exception I'd say is the M in the rightmost column which is shared by both writing systems. The W in the leftmost column definitely does not exist in Meroitic. There is also what is probably an F in the leftmost column that is not used in Meroitic. Futhermore the 4th character from the top in the 2nd column from the right seems to be the determinative for abstract concepts. Meroitic has no determinatives so if I'm correct, I could be wrong about all this, the inscription is purely what we understand to be Egyptian hieroglyphs.
But that is the crux of the matter is it not?-- that Marc Washington either exaggerates or makes outright lies about certain findings or evidence. He tends to do this alot which is why he loves to call figures from Europe through Siberia and the Americas "negroid" if they have broad noses. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: You guys are incredible. Some guy makes a mark on a rock in 50,000 BC and you equate that to inventing the Greek alphabet. This is the kind of warped logic used here to lie and distort. Western alphabets have nothing to do with anything that happened in Nubia.
LMAO The only one incredible here is YOU! The rock carvings of Qustul and Sayalah were made 4,000-5,000 BC NOT 50,000 BC!! They are proto-hieroglyphs which pre-date Sumerian cunieform and is the direct ancestor of later Egyptian hieroglphys which DID give birth to the Phoenician and then later Greek alphabet!
How many times do we have to show you this?!
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Egyptian writing had nothing to do with the Greek alphabet. Linear A and b are not even an alphabet in the modern sense. So the guy that invented the wheel gets credit for the automobile as well? You are a sick pup Djehuti.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
well yeah but it is a real stretch Brada. There is a major difference in complexity. Greek writing is a FAR superior system of writing than the Egyptians had. Greece was a far more dymamic forward look culture than Egypt. They are the shining star of ancient history.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:They are the shining star of ancient history.
I like, and agree with, your metaphor. Greece was pretty but faint and relatively uncreative - like a distant star. Egypt and the Nile Valley can be likened to the Sun: dazzling in brilliance; creative; the source of almost every essential of civilization.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
There was nothing creative about egypt. It was the most conservative society known to man. You can give them credit for great craftsmanship, but not much else. While egypt went 3000 years with very little political change Greece was pioneering democratic politics and laying the groundwork for western political institutions.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
LOL! Laying the ground work for Lester Maddox, George Wallace, George Bush and Sarah Palin. That's something to crow about.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
so we assume then that Apocalpyse would rather have a King than an elective system?
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
I do fear the uneducated (in the sense of ill-informed) and prejudiced rabble but that's for another discussion.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Nothing creative about Egypt? If Egypt never existed there would be no Greece. And no Rome. And no Europe! The Greeks copied Egyptian kouroi figures, Egyptian decorative art, their number system, and measuring system. Learned math in Egyptian schools. Stole their Elysian fields from the Egyptian fields of Aahlu. Got the idea of the column that they used in their architecture from the Egyptians.
Posts: 603 | From: Mobile, Alabama | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
Egypt had nothing to do with the creation of the western empires ebony. You have no evidence to support a wild claim like that. Again, read a basic world history text and pull your head out.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Egypt had nothing to do with the creation of the western empires ebony. You have no evidence to support a wild claim like that. Again, read a basic world history text and pull your head out.
In the ancient writings of the Greeks, the Egyptians were called Melampodes or "blackfeet". The Egyptians were also called Danaans in Greek history.
According to Hyainus in Fabula , and Appollonius, when the Danaans came to Greece they were called 'blackfeet'. This view is supported by the discovery of an inscribed stone in the Peloponnese that had Egyptian writing on it dating to the 5th Dynasty.
This short review of the Classical literature relating to the African identity of the Egyptians suggest that the views held by Lefkowitz in relation to an Egyptian presence in Egypt may not be correct.Numerous archaeologist have found abundant evidence of Egyptians settled in Greece long before the coming of the Indo-European-Aryans to Anatolia.
Cecil Torr in Memphis and Mycenae , discussed the inscriptions of Amemhotep found in a Mycenaean tomb at Ialysos in Rhodes and an 18th Dynasty scarab dating to the same period. As a result of the discovery of these artifacts Torr speculated that there were relations between Egypt and Greece between 1271 and 850 B.C.
The discovery of Torr was only the tip of the iceberg. Since the discovery of these artifacts in the 19th Century, archaeological evidence of Egyptians in Greece during the 2nd millennium has also been reported by J.D.S. Pendlebury, William A. Ward, and S.W. Manning .
Pendlebury provides a detailed discussion of the Egyptian material found at Laconia, Argolid, Thebes in Boeotia, and Athens. Pendlebury like Torr, believes that there were close relations between Greece and Egypt between the 12th and 7th centuries B.C.
Pendlebury's Aegyptiaca , has been excellently followed up by N. J. Skon Jedele, in her recent dissertation on Egyptian artifacts found in Greece. This dissertation provides even more examples of Egyptian artifacts found in Greece than those recorded by Pendlebury over sixty years ago.
Manning gives a well balanced discussion of the Egyptian material found in the Aegean area dating between the Old Kingdom and Dynasties 10 and ll. The work of Hankey and Warren indicate that there is archaeological evidence for Egyptians in ancient Greece, contrary to your false claims.
End Notes
1. Lefkowitz, Not out of Africa, p.157.
2.Cecil Torr, Memphis and Mycenae, (London: Cambridge University Press, 1896) p.61.
3.Ibid., pp.64-65.
4. J.D.S. Pendlebury, Aegyptica: A catalogue of Egyptian objects in the Aegean Area, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. 1930.
5. William W. Ward, Egypt and the Mediterranean World 2200- 1900 B.C., Beirut: American University of Beirut. 1971.
6. S.W. Manning, The absolute chronology of the Aegean Early Bronze Age, Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Egypt had nothing to do with the creation of the western empires ebony. You have no evidence to support a wild claim like that. Again, read a basic world history text and pull your head out.
The Egyptians established many colonies in ancient Europe. The Egyptians called themselves Melampodes or "Blackfeet". The Egyptians were also called Danaans in Greek history. According to Hyainus in Fabula, and Apollonius Rhodius when the Danaans came to Greece they were a combination of diverse African tribes.
When the Danaans came to Greece they took away part of Argolis from the Canaanites. The Danaans took the Mysteries of Themoporia and the oracle of Dodona to Greece. This view is supported by the discovery of an inscribed stone in the Peloponnese that had Egyptian writing on it dating to the Vth Dynasty of Egypt.
Greek traditions speak of Egyptian colonies founded by Cecrops who settled Atica, Danaus the brother of Aegyptus was the founder of Argolis. Danaus is alleged to have taught the Greeks agriculture and metallurgy.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Clyde, many more Greeks colonized Africa than the other way around. Classical scholars disagree with your point of view. If you want to make that point show us where top classical Greek scholars support your view.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Clyde, many more Greeks colonized Africa than the other way around. Classical scholars disagree with your point of view. If you want to make that point show us where top classical Greek scholars support your view.
You are in denial. The citations speak for themselves.
You are a sad person. You demand sources and when they are provided you revert back to your own personal opinions concerning a matter.
In the ancient writings of the Greeks, the Egyptians were called Melampodes or "blackfeet". The Egyptians were also called Danaans in Greek history.
According to Hyainus in Fabula , and Appollonius, when the Danaans came to Greece they were called 'blackfeet'. This view is supported by the discovery of an inscribed stone in the Peloponnese that had Egyptian writing on it dating to the 5th Dynasty.
This short review of the Classical literature relating to the African identity of the Egyptians suggest that the views held by Lefkowitz in relation to an Egyptian presence in Egypt may not be correct.Numerous archaeologist have found abundant evidence of Egyptians settled in Greece long before the coming of the Indo-European-Aryans to Anatolia.
Cecil Torr in Memphis and Mycenae , discussed the inscriptions of Amemhotep found in a Mycenaean tomb at Ialysos in Rhodes and an 18th Dynasty scarab dating to the same period. As a result of the discovery of these artifacts Torr speculated that there were relations between Egypt and Greece between 1271 and 850 B.C.
The discovery of Torr was only the tip of the iceberg. Since the discovery of these artifacts in the 19th Century, archaeological evidence of Egyptians in Greece during the 2nd millennium has also been reported by J.D.S. Pendlebury, William A. Ward, and S.W. Manning .
Pendlebury provides a detailed discussion of the Egyptian material found at Laconia, Argolid, Thebes in Boeotia, and Athens. Pendlebury like Torr, believes that there were close relations between Greece and Egypt between the 12th and 7th centuries B.C.
Pendlebury's Aegyptiaca , has been excellently followed up by N. J. Skon Jedele, in her recent dissertation on Egyptian artifacts found in Greece. This dissertation provides even more examples of Egyptian artifacts found in Greece than those recorded by Pendlebury over sixty years ago.
Manning gives a well balanced discussion of the Egyptian material found in the Aegean area dating between the Old Kingdom and Dynasties 10 and ll. The work of Hankey and Warren indicate that there is archaeological evidence for Egyptians in ancient Greece, contrary to your false claims.
End Notes
1. Lefkowitz, Not out of Africa, p.157.
2.Cecil Torr, Memphis and Mycenae, (London: Cambridge University Press, 1896) p.61.
3.Ibid., pp.64-65.
4. J.D.S. Pendlebury, Aegyptica: A catalogue of Egyptian objects in the Aegean Area, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. 1930.
5. William W. Ward, Egypt and the Mediterranean World 2200- 1900 B.C., Beirut: American University of Beirut. 1971.
6. S.W. Manning, The absolute chronology of the Aegean Early Bronze Age, Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Others have been speaking about the Nubians of Qustul having a culture earlier than that of Egypt and copied by Egypt. I gave the example of the glyph for "captive" as being earlier in Nubia and copied by Egypt:
But, in the comparison of Qustul/Nubia and Egypt, Minimalist from another site turned me on to this really dynamite Youtube presentation. Check it out:
And for Mr. Patriot, images of the first and earliest Greeks in [C]; and peoples of surrounding countries and cultures ([A] [ B] [F] ): by phenotype, African
posted
Minoan culture was the first European civilization, in which Greek culture evolved. Minoans were heavily influenced by Egyptians. What on earth are you talking about? You're in denial.
Posts: 603 | From: Mobile, Alabama | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
Clyde, I do not thi nk anyone has ever said that there was not contact between Egypt and Greece or greece and everyone else on the Med. You did a good job of describing a series of artifacts found to show that interaction. The problem arises when we go from establishing the exsistence of the relationship, such as it was, to making assumptions of just what those artifacts meant. You can establish a trading relationship but to expand it past that you need to show leading classical scholars making the points you wish to make. Now, Lefkowitz has a high profile on these issues but she is far from the only classical scholar out there who makes those points. To convince the rest of us out here you need a half dozen top line classical scholars to accept your point of view and i do not think you have them.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:But that is the crux of the matter is it not?-- that Marc Washington either exaggerates or makes outright lies about certain findings or evidence.
I'm not quite willing yet to characterize his presentations as lies but they certainly cannot be defended. Its not just Marc either but Dr. Winters too. Above he claims that the people of ancient Crete were none other than the Garamantes. And for a man who claims to have deciphered the Meroitic language its funny that he couldn't tell the difference between Egyptian Hieroglyphs and Meroitic. In the very least we have seriously flawed scholarship with these two.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Every since Arthur Evans discovered the Hieroglyphic and Linear A writing of Crete there has been a search for the authors of this writing.
Some Grecian traditions indicate that Libyans (called Garamante) formerly lived on Crete. This suggest that some of the Eteocretans may have spoken one of the ancient languages of Libya.
A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in The Greek Myths (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa.
This theory is interesting because the chariot routes from the Fezzan terminated at the Niger river. In addition, the Cretan term for king "Minos", agrees with the Mande\Manding word for ruler "Mansa". Both these terms share consonantal agreement : M N S.
The name Garamante, illustrates affinity to Mande morphology and grammar. The name for the Manding tribe called "Mande", means Ma 'mother, and nde 'children', can be interpreted as "Children of Ma", or "Mothers children " (descent among this group is matrilineal). The word Garamante, can be broken down into Malinke-Bambara into the following monosyllabic words Ga 'hearth', arid, hot'; Mante/Mande , the name of the Mande speaking tribes. This means that the term: Garamante, can be interpreted as "Mande of the Arid lands" or "Arid lands of the children of Ma". This last term is quite interesting because by the time the Greeks and Romans learned about the Garamante, the Fezzan was becoming increasingly arid.
The Egyptians called the Cretans Keftiu. There is agreement between the Keftiu names recorded by Egyptian scribes (T.E. Peet, "The Egyptian writing board BM5647 bearing Keftiu names". In <Essays in Agean Archaeology Presented to Sir A. Evans>, (ed.) by S Casson (Oxford, 1927, 90-99)), and Manding names.
The root kef-, in Keftiu, probably is Ke'be, the name of a Manding clan , plus the locative suffix {i-} used to give the affirmative sense, plus the plural suffix for names {u-}, and the {-te} suffixial element used to denote place names, nationalities and to form words.
On the Egyptian writing board there are eight Keftiu names. These names agree with Manding names:
Keftiu Manding sh h.r Sye Nsy Nsye 'ksh Nkyi Pnrt Pe, Beni (name for twins) 'dm Demba Rs Rsa
This analogy between Keftiu and Manding names is startling.
In conclusion, the evidence of similarity between Keftiu names and names from the Manding languages appear to support Graves view that the Eteocretans, who early settled Crete may have spoken a language similar to the Mande people who live near the Niger. Conseqently, there is every possibility that the Linear A script used by the Keftiu, which is analogous to the Libyco Berber writing used by the Proto-Mande (see: C. A.Winters, "The influence of the Mande scripts on ancient America", <Bull. de l'IFAN>, t59, serB, no.1, (1977) pp.941-967; and C.A. Winters, "The ancient manding Script", In <Blacks in Science ancient and Modern>, (ed.) by Ivan van Sertima, ( London: Rutgers University Press Transaction Press , 1981) pp.208-214), may be written in an aspect of the Manding (Malinke/Bambara) language.
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Apocalypse: Djehuti wrote:
quote:But that is the crux of the matter is it not?-- that Marc Washington either exaggerates or makes outright lies about certain findings or evidence.
I'm not quite willing yet to characterize his presentations as lies but they certainly cannot be defended. Its not just Marc either but Dr. Winters too. Above he claims that the people of ancient Crete were none other than the Garamantes. And for a man who claims to have deciphered the Meroitic language its funny that he couldn't tell the difference between Egyptian Hieroglyphs and Meroitic. In the very least we have seriously flawed scholarship with these two.
Above is Marc's poster. He is talking about the Qustul Incense Burner and other Group A text--not Meroitic. Your claim that Marc is talking about Meroitic and not Group=A writing suggest that you can't read or you are a liar.
quote:Above is Marc's poster. He is talking about the Qustul Incense Burner and other Group A text--not Meroitic. Your claim that Marc is talking about Meroitic and not Group=A writing suggest that you can't read or you are a liar.
Well Dr. Winters its there for all the world to see. Marc labeled the rock inscriptions "Nubian Hieroglyphs" which he describes further, in the same poster, as "the still undeciphered Nubian Hieroglyphs." Problem is that the rock inscriptions are Egyptian not Meroitic. At least from the foregoing we see that, to his credit, Marc rejects your claim that you've deciphered the Meroitic language.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:This theory is interesting because the chariot routes from the Fezzan terminated at the Niger river. In addition, the Cretan term for king "Minos", agrees with the Mande\Manding word for ruler "Mansa". Both these terms share consonantal agreement : M N S.
That seems to be quite a stretch if not a blind leap of faith. I prefer Bernal's derivation of King Minos from the Egyptian toponym MNWS meaning foreign country. He also associates the name with Pharaoh Menes, who analogous to Minos, was viewed by Egyptians as the founder of their country.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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