quote:Originally posted by Hammer: R1b is not a rumor, you are in denial ust as I predicted you would be. Logic? You guys are a laughing stock everywhere. 1. Only 23% of Greeks have the marker 2. 20 people could spread that marker to 23% of the greek population.
I know you guys have math issues, we see the test scores but this is not rocket science. Again goofey...having the marker does not mean anything. It does not make them black and does not mean they were ever black.
They were ever Black? Really? Are you that concerned about such things? When I hear people talking in absolutes I know they are being religious. So, you are part of some sort of Eurocentric cult like alot of the AAs here who are part of some Afrocentric cult. All a bunch of religious nuts.
Let me show you why you are a Euronut just like a lot of the Afronuts here.
Your Premise - Egyptian royals are European because R1b has been found in King Tut.
Surmation: A haplogroup found in an individual indicates origin of the individuals family and therefore everyone else in that class of people ,hence all royalty in Egypt during the dynastic age, are R1b and necessarily European.
It should then follow that if an African haplogroup is found in Greece amongst royalty then Greek royalty is of African origin.
Fact, E3b has been found in Greek royalty therefore you should conclude that Greek royalty was of African origin. This based on your great logic about King Tut.
However, you claim that Greeks are in no way of African origin. The Black African Halpogroup of Sub-Saharan origin means nothing.
Conclusion: religious bias.
You are part of a racialist cult that blinds you to scientific methods where all evidence that goes against your faith is ignored and all evidence supporting your faith is over exaggerated.
You are no different than the Afro-Nuts. Unwilling to even speculate about evidence that doesn't fit your religious beliefs.
You like many others that post here are a loser.
At least I am from North Africa where as most of you guys are just a bunch of wannabe folks.
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AND I AM R1B and I am STILL VERY MUCH BLACK!!!
idiot.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Clyde's on that move it up stuff again
Clyde, question: what happened to the Hattians?
The Hattians were pushed out of Anatolia into Iran by the Hittites and other Indo-European speaking people. Here they mixed with tribal people and invaded India . The Hattians and Mitanni along with tribal people in Iran formed the backbone of the Indo-Aryan people who are Hindus today. This is the only way we can explain the spread of Anatolian horse terms and religious concepts into Hinduism.
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^ No I have a Scottish ancestor from missionaries in Africa ( 4 generations back ).
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Wow - Miss Egypt looks very Negroid . I am surprised the United Turko Republicans even chose her. Just like a sistah with a weave. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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^ Negroid? Why did you use this offensive terminology?
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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Wow - Miss Egypt looks very Negroid . I am surprised the United Turko Republicans even chose her. Just like a sistah with a weave.
No surprise here, a lot of females in Northern Egypt have her traits and facial features.
Just like the North Nubians and 70-80% of (North) East Africans.
An Examination of Nubian and Egyptian biological distances: Support for biological diffusion or in situ development?
Homo. 2009;60(5):389-404. Epub 2009 Sep 19.
Godde K. Department of Anthropology, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, 250 South Stadium Hall, Knoxville, TN 37996, USA. kgodde@utk.edu
"The clustering of the Nubian and Egyptian samples together supports this paper's hypothesis and demonstrates that there may be a close relationship between the two populations. This relationship is consistent with Berry and Berry (1972), among others, who noted a similarity between Nubians and Egyptians. If Nubians and Egyptians were not biologically similar, one would expect the scores to separately cluster by population (e.g. Nubians compared to Nubians would have small biological distances, and Nubians compared to Egyptians would have high biological distances). However, this was not the case in the current analysis and the Results suggest homogeneity between the two populations."
DNA analysis shows that Egyptians group with African peoples from the Sudan, Ethiopia, East Africa and parts of Cameroon, not with Europe or the Middle East.
Notes on E-M78 and Rosa DNA study linking Egyptians with East and Central Africans. DNA study (Rosa et al. 2007) groups Egyptians with East and Central Africans. Other DNA studies link these peoples together.
Quote:“the majority of Y chromosomes found in populations in Egypt, Sudan, Ethiopia and Oromos in Somalia and North Kenya (Boranas) belong to haplogroup E3b1 defined by the Y chromosome marker M78“(Sanchez 2005). Codes: Egy=Egypt. Or= Oromo, Ethiopia. Am=Amahara, Ethiopia. Sud=Sudan. FCA=Cameroon. Maa= Massai, Kenya.
Note: Eighty (80)% or more of the haplotypes in Cameroon are of West African origin (Rosa et al. 2007, Cerny et al. 2006). Ethiopia, Cameroon and most of the Sudan is located below the Sahara, and thus sub-Saharan.-- Rosa, et al.(2007) Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau. BMC Evolutionary Biology. 7:124 Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ No I have a Scottish ancestor from missionaries in Africa ( 4 generations back ).
The R* haplo amongst Scots and other Western populations is of a different one, on a nucleoid bases, than the one in Africa. The groups in Africa who this the R* type have it in abundance. Whereas it is only found on small percentage in some South European populations. So again we see the influx of Africans in Southern Europe.
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Haplo E* is of Africa origin and E-M78 has it's roots there, spread into SW Asia and the Medetareanian, creating E-V13 alleles due to mutaions as they moved into another region. Creating this specific marker.
E-V13 subject also carries the V27 mutation. Which is found in the Balkans. The Ptolemy came from the Balkans as Masedonians. With this mutated marker. Entering into Kemet at 500bc.
Detailed population data were obtained on the distribution of novel biallelic markers that finely dissect the human Y-chromosome haplogroup E-M78. Among 6,501 Y chromosomes sampled in 81 human populations worldwide, we found 517 E-M78 chromosomes and assigned them to 10 subhaplogroups. Eleven microsatellite loci were used to further evaluate subhaplogroup internal diversification
The geographic and quantitative analyses of haplogroup and microsatellite diversity is strongly suggestive of a northeastern African origin of E-M78, with a corridor for bidirectional migrations between northeastern and eastern Africa (at least 2 episodes between 23.9–17.3 ky and 18.0–5.9 ky ago), trans-Mediterranean migrations directly from northern Africa to Europe (mainly in the last 13.0 ky), and flow from northeastern Africa to western Asia between 20.0 and 6.8 ky ago.
Among them, 517 chromosomes carrying the M78-derived T allele were further genotyped for 10 markers defining internal nodes, following a hierarchical approach. Typing methods for 8 of these markers (M148, M224, V12, V13, V19, V22, V27, and V32) were previously described (Underhill et al. 2000, 2001; Cruciani et al. 2006).
The only haplogroup showing a wide geographic distribution was E-V22, relatively common not only in northeastern and eastern Africa but also found in Europe and western Asia, up to southern Asia (table 1, fig. 2).
Interesting was this finding. Published by the BBC.
Cleopatra's mother 'was African'
Cleopatra, the last Egyptian Pharaoh, renowned for her beauty, was part African, says a BBC team which believes it has found her sister's tomb.
Queen Cleopatra was a descendant of Ptolemy, the Macedonian general who ruled Egypt after Alexander the Great.
But remains of the queen's sister Princess Arsinoe, found in Ephesus, Turkey, indicate that her mother had an "African" skeleton.
Experts have described the results as "a real sensation."
The discovery was made by Hilke Thuer of the Austrian Academy of Sciences.
"It is unique in the life of an archaeologist to find the tomb and the skeleton of a member of Ptolemaic dynasty," she said.
"That Arsinoe had an African mother is a real sensation which leads to a new insight on Cleopatra's family and the relationship of the sisters Cleopatra and Arsinoe."
They lived at a turbulent time when the Roman empire was extending its power across the Mediterranean.
Cleopatra established alliances with the Roman leader Julius Caesar and, after his assassination, with his political supporter, General Mark Antony, to whom she was married.
"Cleopatra, Julius Caesar, Mark Antony - they are all iconic figures from history," said archaeologist Neil Oliver who presents the BBC documentary.
"It's almost impossible to remember they were real people and not the semi-mythical figures portrayed by Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor. It was like a splash of cold water in the face to be confronted by them as human beings, " he continued.
"When I stood in the lab and handled the bones of Cleopatra's blood sister - knowing that in her lifetime she touched Cleopatra and perhaps Julius Caesar and Mark Antony as well - I felt the hairs go up on the back of my neck."
"Suddenly these giant figures from history were flesh and blood," said archaeologist Neil Oliver.
There was plenty of sibling rivalry between Princess Arsinoe and her powerful sister Cleopatra - many believe the queen ordered Mark Antony to murder her sister.
The film examines the life of Cleopatra - who had an affair with Julius Caesar - including her murderous intentions towards Arsinoe.
Cleopatra: Portrait of a Killer is on BBC One at 9pm on 23 March 2009.
Wow - Miss Egypt looks very Negroid . I am surprised the United Turko Republicans even chose her. Just like a sistah with a weave.
Stature estimation in ancient Egyptians: A new technique based on anatomical reconstruction of stature
Michelle H. Raxter1,*, Christopher B. Ruff2, Ayman Azab3, Moushira Erfan3, Muhammad Soliman3, Aly El-Sawaf3
"We also compare Egyptian body proportions to those of modern American Blacks and Whites... Long bone stature regression equations were then derived for each sex. Our results confirm that, although ancient Egyptians are closer in body proportion to modern American Blacks than they are to American Whites, proportions in Blacks and Egyptians are not identical... Intralimb indices are not significantly different between Egyptians and American Blacks...brachial indices are definitely more ‘African’... There is no evidence for significant variation in proportions among temporal or social groupings; thus, the new formula may be broadly applicable to ancient Egyptian remains." ("Stature estimation in ancient Egyptians: A new technique based on anatomical reconstruction of stature." Michelle H. Raxter, Christopher B. Ruff, Ayman Azab, Moushira Erfan, Muhammad Soliman, Aly El-Sawaf,(Am J Phys Anthropol. 2008, Jun;136(2):147-5
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You have no clue what you speak of, the Nile Valley culture was surrounded by local African cults.
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Since the Egyptian royals were Europeans to start with red hair would not have been an unusual feature though not common.
Napata and its Amun sanctuary remained the kingdom’s chief religious center and the premier site of all royal coronations. Well into the Common era, Jebel Barkal was thought to be the main Nubian seat of the god Amun, who conferred kingship upon the rulers of Kush – a kingship believed by its possessors to have descended, in that place, directly from the sun god Re at the beginning of time.
III. A. The Nature of Amun and the Mysteries of Jebel Barkal.(Amen)
It is clear from a complex surviving iconographic and textual record that from early Dynasty 18 the Egyptians assigned Jebel Barkal an outsized religious and political significance because of its peculiar shape. It is perhaps the unique Egyptian religious site that allows us to perceive how Egyptian religious beliefs were influenced by the natural landscape. The isolated hill evoked in the Egyptian mind the Primeval Mound of popular myth, on which Creation was thought to have taken place. “Proof” of the presence here of Amun as Creator was evident to ancient onlookers in the towering, statue-like pinnacle on its south corner (fig. 23), which, when viewed from different angles at different times of the day, suggested to them the forms of many different divine beings or aspects, all of which combined to confirm the presence and protean nature of the god, whose very name meant “Hidden.”
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Since the Egyptian royals were Europeans to start with red hair would not have been an unusual feature though not common.
These cults can be taken deeper into the Saharan cultures.
And these cults eventually did lead to the Nile civilization.
By Helen Briggs
Science reporter, BBC News
Ancient humans 'followed rains'
By Helen Briggs
Science reporter, BBC News
Prehistoric humans roamed the world's largest desert for some 5,000 years, archaeologists have revealed.
The Eastern Sahara of Egypt, Sudan, Libya and Chad was home to nomadic people who followed rains that turned the desert into grassland.
When the landscape dried up about 7,000 years ago, there was a mass exodus to the Nile and other parts of Africa.
The close link between human settlement and climate has lessons for today, researchers report in Science.
"Even modern day conflicts such as Dafur are caused by environmental degradation as it has been in the past," Dr Stefan Kropelin of the University of Cologne, Germany, told the BBC News website.
"The basic struggle for food, water and pasture is still a big problem in the Sahara zone. This process started thousands of years ago and has a long tradition."
Jigsaw puzzle
The Eastern Sahara, which covers more than 2 million sq km, an area the size of Western Europe, is now almost uninhabited by people or animals, providing a unique window into the past.
Dr Kropelin and colleague Dr Rudolph Kuper pieced together the 10,000-year jigsaw of human migration and settlement; studying more than 100 archaeological sites over the course of 30 years.
In the largest study of its kind, they built up a detailed picture of human evolution in the world's largest desert. They found that far from the inhospitable climate of today, the area was once semi-humid.
Between about 14,000 and 13,000 years ago, the area was very dry. But a drastic switch in environmental conditions some 10,500 years ago brought rain and monsoon-like conditions.
Nomadic human settlers moved in from the south, taking up residence beside rivers and lakes. They were hunter-gatherers at first, living off plants and wild game.
Eventually they became more settled, domesticating cattle for the first time, and making intricate pottery.
Neolithic farmers
Humid conditions prevailed until about 6,000 years ago, when the Sahara abruptly dried out. There was then a gradual exodus of people to the Nile Valley and other parts of the African continent.
“ The domestication of cattle was invented in the Sahara in the humid phase and was then slowly pushed over the rest of Africa ”.
Dr Stefan Kropelin of the University of Cologne
"The Nile Valley was almost devoid of settlement until about exactly the time that the Egyptian Sahara was so dry people could not live there anymore," Dr Kropelin told the BBC News website.
"People preferred to live on savannah land. Only when this wasn't possible they migrated towards southern Sudan and the Nile.
"They brought all their know-how to the rest of the continent - the domestication of cattle was invented in the Sahara in the humid phase and was then slowly pushed over the rest of Africa.
"This Neolithic way of life, which still is a way of life in a sense; preservation of food for the dry season and many other such cultural elements, was introduced to central and southern Africa from the Sahara."
'Motor of evolution'
Dr Kuper said the distribution of people and languages, which is so politically important today, has its roots in the desiccation of the Sahara.
The switch in environmental conditions acted as a "motor of Africa's evolution," he said.
"It happened during these 5,000 years of the savannah that people changed from hunter-gathers to cattle keepers," he said.
"This important step in human history has been made for the first time in the African Sahara."
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: It is a matter of logic my friend. 1 +1 is 2. This is why you people bring up the rear in every catagory of human activity. In your defense I actually think you believe this goofey ideology.
The region was once much less arid.
About 8500 BC, seasonal rainfall appeared in the region, creating a savanna and attracting hunter-gatherers. By 5300 BC, the rains had stopped and human settlements receded to highland areas. By 3500 BC, the settlements disappeared entirely.
MOVING TOWARDS THE NILE VALLEY
"After 3-4,000 years of savanna life environment in the Sahara, the desert returned and people were forced to move eastwards to the Nile Valley, contributing to the foundation of Egyptian civilisation, and southwards to the African continent," said Kuper, an expert at Germany's Heinrich Barth Institute.
The mass exodus corresponds with the rise of sedentary life along the Nile that later blossomed into pharaonic civilisation that dominated the region for thousands of years and whose art, architecture and government helped shape Western culture.
"It was a movement, I think, step-by-step, because the desert didn't rush in. The rains would withdraw, then return, and so on. But step by step it became more dry, and people moved toward the Nile Valley or toward the south," Kuper said.
Kuper and his team are recording the geological, botanic and archaeological evidence around the cave, including stone tools and pottery, and will compare it to other sites in the Eastern Sahara region, adding new pieces to a prehistoric puzzle.
"It seems that the paintings of the Cave of the Beasts pre-date the introduction of domesticated animals. That means they predate 6000 BC," said Kuper, who led his first field trip to the cave in April 2009. "That is what we dare to say."
The visible art work covers a surface 18 metres wide and 6 metres high. In October, Kuper's team scanned the cave by laser to capture high-definition, three-dimensional images.
A test dig a few weeks ago during the team's third expedition to the sandstone cave uncovered yet more drawings that extend down 80 cms below the sand, Kindermann said.
"Now we have increasing evidence how rich the prehistoric culture in the Eastern Sahara was," Kuper said.
Edited by Thure E. Cerling, University of Utah, Salt Lake City, UT
Isla S. Castañedaa,1, Stefan Mulitzab, Enno Schefußb, Raquel A. Lopes dos Santosa, Jaap S. Sinninghe Damstéa and Stefan Schoutena
Wet phases in the Sahara/Sahel region and human migration patterns in North Africa
The Sahara desert is known to have undergone major, and possibly abrupt, hydrological fluctuations and was vegetated at times in the past (1, 2). During a wet phase in the Early Holocene known as the African Humid Period (AHP), the region currently occupied by the Sahara desert was vegetated, contained forests, grasslands, and permanent lakes, and was occupied by human populations (2).
CAIRO (Reuters) - Archaeologists are studying prehistoric rock drawings discovered in a remote cave in 2002, including dancing figures and strange headless beasts, as they seek new clues about the rise of Egyptian civilisation.
Amateur explorers stumbled across the cave, which includes 5,000 images painted or engraved into stone, in the vast, empty desert near Egypt's southwest border with Libya and Sudan.
Rudolph Kuper, a German archaeologist, said the detail depicted in the "Cave of the Beasts" indicate the site is at least 8,000 years old, likely the work of hunter-gatherers whose descendants may have been among the early settlers of the then-swampy and inhospitable Nile Valley.
The cave is 10 km (6 miles) from the "Cave of the Swimmers" romanticised in the film the "English Patient", but with far more, and better preserved, images.
By studying the sandstone cave and other nearby sites, the archaeologists are trying to build a timeline to compare the culture and technologies of the peoples who inhabited the area.
"It is the most amazing cave ... in North Africa and Egypt," said Karin Kindermann, member of a German-led team that recently made a trip to the site 900 km (560 miles) southwest of Cairo.
"You take a piece of the puzzle and see where it could fit. This is an important piece," she said.
The Eastern Sahara, a region the size of Western Europe that extends from Egypt into Libya, Sudan and Chad, is the world's largest warm, dry desert. Rainfall in the desert's centre averages less than 2 millimetres a year.
The region was once much less arid.
About 8500 BC, seasonal rainfall appeared in the region, creating a savanna and attracting hunter-gatherers. By 5300 BC, the rains had stopped and human settlements receded to highland areas. By 3500 BC, the settlements disappeared entirely.
MOVING TOWARDS THE NILE VALLEY
"After 3-4,000 years of savanna life environment in the Sahara, the desert returned and people were forced to move eastwards to the Nile Valley, contributing to the foundation of Egyptian civilisation, and southwards to the African continent," said Kuper, an expert at Germany's Heinrich Barth Institute.
The mass exodus corresponds with the rise of sedentary life along the Nile that later blossomed into pharaonic civilisation that dominated the region for thousands of years and whose art, architecture and government helped shape Western culture.
"It was a movement, I think, step-by-step, because the desert didn't rush in. The rains would withdraw, then return, and so on. But step by step it became more dry, and people moved toward the Nile Valley or toward the south," Kuper said.
Kuper and his team are recording the geological, botanic and archaeological evidence around the cave, including stone tools and pottery, and will compare it to other sites in the Eastern Sahara region, adding new pieces to a prehistoric puzzle.
"It seems that the paintings of the Cave of the Beasts pre-date the introduction of domesticated animals. That means they predate 6000 BC," said Kuper, who led his first field trip to the cave in April 2009. "That is what we dare to say."
The visible art work covers a surface 18 metres wide and 6 metres high. In October, Kuper's team scanned the cave by laser to capture high-definition, three-dimensional images.
A test dig a few weeks ago during the team's third expedition to the sandstone cave uncovered yet more drawings that extend down 80 cms below the sand, Kindermann said.
"Now we have increasing evidence how rich the prehistoric culture in the Eastern Sahara was," Kuper said.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: If King Tut was R1b then I would speculate that it was due to Hittites.
From the Amarna letters we have Ankhesenamon who apparently wrote a letter to Suppilulumia informing him that she had no sons of her own and asked him to send to her one of his sons whom she would marry and make Pharaoh. Now why would an Egyptian want to have a Hittite as a Pharaoh? Perhaps there's more to this than we had previously known.
Lets keep in mind that this is a period by which alliances were formed by such marriages. So if King Tut did have R1b the question would be was it due to an ancient alliance between Asiatics and Africans?
Then a king will come from the South, Ameny, the justified, my name, Son of a woman of Ta-Seti, child of Upper Egypt, He will take the white crown, he willjoin the Two Mighty Ones (the two crowns)
Asiatics will fall to his sword, Libyans will fall to his flame, Rebels to his wrath, traitors to his might, As the serpent on his brow subdues the rebels for him, One will build the Walls-of-the-Ruler, To bar Asiatics from entering Egypt...
The Oxford history of ancient Egypt "Then a king will come from the South"
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The nubian mesolithic: A consideration of the Wadi Halfa remains
Meredith F. Small*
Department of anthropology, University of Colorado, Boulder,
Morphological variation of the skeletal remains of ancient Nubia has been traditionally explained as a product of multiple migrations into the Nile Valley. In contrast, various researchers have noted a continuity in craniofacial variation from Mesolithic through Neolithic times. This apparent continuity could be explained by in situ cultural evolution producing shifts in selective pressures which may act on teeth, the facial complex, and the cranial vault.
A series of 13 Mesolithic skulls from Wadi Halfa, Sudan, are compared to Nubian Neolithic remains by means of extended canonical analysis. Results support recent research which suggests consistent trends of facial reduction and cranial vault expansion from Mesolithic through Neolithic times.
Focus on Archeology ACADEMIA, No. 1 (1) 2004.
The Megaliths of Nabta Playa Mysteries of the South Western Desert
"The Late and Final Neolithic societies of the South Western Desert lived in a symbiotic relationship with their agricultural counter- parts in the Upper Nile Valley. This relation- ship is clearly seen in the presence of many imported goods from the Nile Valley, and perhaps also in a multiethnic character of the desert population. Yet the ceremonial center of Nabta Playa also shows that at least some of the roots of ancient Egyptian be- liefs, magic and religion are present there."
"Perhaps the most convincing tie between the myths and religion of Ancient Egypt and the Cattle Herders of the South Western Desert are the groups of Nabta Basin stelae. The stelae here face the circumpolar region of the he- avens. According to the early Egyptian mortu- ary texts known as Pyramid Texts, this is a pla- ce where the stars never die and where there is no death at all. This is the region of Dāt, the goal of the deceased, the Field of Offerings, in which the departed will live as an “effective” spirit."
"The well-organized and usually very worrisome desert herders, probably speaking the same or a similar language as the people in the Nile Valley, when pu- shed towards the relatively crowded Valley inhabited by traditionally peaceful peasant societies, may have served as catalysts for these processes."
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"The TMRCA of the European E-V13 chromosomes turns out to be 4.0–4.7 ky (under 2 different demographic expansion scenarios, see Subjects and Methods; 95% CI 3.5–4.6 ky and 4.1–5.3 ky, respectively)."
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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R1b1b2a1a (S21+), previously known as R1b1b2a
Unusually short DYS458 alleles (DYS458.2) are associated with R1b1b2a1 (S21, aka M405). Cases of this allele have so far been detected in Ireland, England, Germany, the Netherlands and the U.S.(1-5%) and this appears to a unique west European marker. The DYS458.2 allele also occurs independently in the Y-chromosome J1 subclade.
The R1b1b2a1 (S21+) is a prominent R1b subclade and is likely the major subclade in resolving identity after the R1b1b2 (M269+) subclade. It frequency is highest in the Dutch (35%) and it is also rather high in England, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Czech Republic and Switzerland (13-23%). This region overlaps origins of Germanic groups, such as the Anglo-Saxons in Frisia. It does not appear to have extended its reach beyond West and Central Europe (except recent migration to the U.S.).
The levels of the R1b1b2a (S127+) subclade in conjunction with other R subclades have not been reported to date.
R1b1b2a1a1 (S29+), previously known as R1b1b2a1a
The R1b1b2a1a1 subclade is defined by SNP S29. This subclade has not been widely studied, but current results show it the Netherlands, Denmark, England, Germany and Russia (1-2%). A small frequency of the R1b1b2a1a1 (S29+) subclade has also been found at a low level in the U.S.(~1%).
There is another independent Haplogroup R sub-lineage designated R2. R2 is likely to have originated (~25kya) in South Asia, around India/Pakistan. The R2 subclade is highest in East India (50-60%) and Sri Lanka (75%). Some R2 has been observed in the Caucasus and Central Asia (e.g. Nepal), but it has not spread beyond these regions, except with a Gypsy population (Sinte Romani), which likely originated in India. There is relatively high level in Kurds in Georgia (44% of Kurmanji) and this population is likely an outcome of a bottleneck and genetic drift.
R1b1b2a1a (S21+), previously known as R1b1b2aPosts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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R1b-M412 appears to be the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in Western Europe (470%), while being virtually absent in the Near East, the Caucasus and West AsiaPosts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: The DNA tests say otherwise. R1b
The central Sahel is characterized by a strong linguistic fragmentation with populations speaking languages belonging to three of the four linguistic families of Africa (Afroasiatic, Niger-Congo, and Nilo-Saharan).
When the linguistic affiliation of the populations from the central Sahel was also taken into account, a clear-cut divide was observed between those speaking Afroasiatic languages (including the Berber-speaking Tuareg, the Semitic Arab Shuwa, and Chadic-speaking populations from northern Cameroon) and the other populations (Mann–Whitney test P¼1.4103), with Chadic-speaking populations mostly contributing to this difference. It is worth noting that, if the finding of 20% R-V88 chromosomes among the Hausa (Table 1) is representative, this population, encompassing by far more people than all other Chadic speakers, 44 also encompasses the highest absolute number of V88 carriers. In contrast to prior studies on nuclear (mostly autosomal) ins/del and microsatellite markers, 45 the Chadic are distinguished from the Nilo-Saharan-speaking populations at the Y chromosome variation level.
Repeated assimilations of Nilo-Saharan females over generations may account for these con- flicting signals. Among the Niger-Congo-speaking populations, the frequency of the haplogroup R-V88 ranged between 0.0 and 66.7%. Outside central Africa, haplogroup R-V88 was only observed in Afroasiatic-speaking populations from northern Africa, with frequencies ranging from 0.3% in Morocco, to 3.0% in Algeria, and to 11.5% in Egypt, where a particularly high frequency (26.9%) was observed among the Berbers from the Siwa Oasis.
This haplo is near zero to 1% in some South European populations! HOW COME?Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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It would be nice if someone actually adressed the Amarna letters rather than skirting around the issue.
Why would an Egyptian princess want to marry a Hittite. Why would she show no interest in being with her own kind? Was she not married to her own kind? Why now the interest in a foreigner especially one from an area that we know has R1b populations?
Again, I am not religious about Egypt. Just like there are Black people in European history (even in their royal families), I see no reason why Indo-Europeans could not have also been a part of Egyptian history in somewhat the same way as Blacks in Europe.
Egypt is certainly not a European culture and has affinities with the people of the Sahara and East Africa more so than anywhere else.
But it is an interesting question - why an Asiatic husband?
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: It would be nice if someone actually adressed the Amarna letters rather than skirting around the issue.
Why would an Egyptian princess want to marry a Hittite. Why would she show no interest in being with her own kind? Was she not married to her own kind? Why now the interest in a foreigner especially one from an area that we know has R1b populations?
Again, I am not religious about Egypt. Just like there are Black people in European history (even in their royal families), I see no reason why Indo-Europeans could not have also been a part of Egyptian history in somewhat the same way as Blacks in Europe.
Egypt is certainly not a European culture and has affinities with the people of the Sahara and East Africa more so than anywhere else.
But it is an interesting question - why an Asiatic husband?
She was probably going to marry a Hattian--not Hittite. The Hattians were were Kushites or Kaska people.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: It would be nice if someone actually adressed the Amarna letters rather than skirting around the issue.
Why would an Egyptian princess want to marry a Hittite. Why would she show no interest in being with her own kind? Was she not married to her own kind? Why now the interest in a foreigner especially one from an area that we know has R1b populations?
Again, I am not religious about Egypt. Just like there are Black people in European history (even in their royal families), I see no reason why Indo-Europeans could not have also been a part of Egyptian history in somewhat the same way as Blacks in Europe.
Egypt is certainly not a European culture and has affinities with the people of the Sahara and East Africa more so than anywhere else.
But it is an interesting question - why an Asiatic husband?
R1b what?
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: It would be nice if someone actually adressed the Amarna letters rather than skirting around the issue.
Why would an Egyptian princess want to marry a Hittite. Why would she show no interest in being with her own kind? Was she not married to her own kind? Why now the interest in a foreigner especially one from an area that we know has R1b populations?
Again, I am not religious about Egypt. Just like there are Black people in European history (even in their royal families), I see no reason why Indo-Europeans could not have also been a part of Egyptian history in somewhat the same way as Blacks in Europe.
Egypt is certainly not a European culture and has affinities with the people of the Sahara and East Africa more so than anywhere else.
But it is an interesting question - why an Asiatic husband?
R1b what?
Sounds like you don't want to discuss the connection between R1b and the Amarna letters.
The Amarna letters are interesting in that it is suggestive of a link between Asiatic males and the royal families of Egypt.
I know a lot of us don't like using the Bible as a reference but I still can't help but think about Potifer's wife and the story of Joseph.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by osirion: It would be nice if someone actually adressed the Amarna letters rather than skirting around the issue.
Why would an Egyptian princess want to marry a Hittite. Why would she show no interest in being with her own kind? Was she not married to her own kind? Why now the interest in a foreigner especially one from an area that we know has R1b populations?
Again, I am not religious about Egypt. Just like there are Black people in European history (even in their royal families), I see no reason why Indo-Europeans could not have also been a part of Egyptian history in somewhat the same way as Blacks in Europe.
Egypt is certainly not a European culture and has affinities with the people of the Sahara and East Africa more so than anywhere else.
But it is an interesting question - why an Asiatic husband?
R1b what?
Sounds like you don't want to discuss the connection between R1b and the Amarna letters.
The Amarna letters are interesting in that it is suggestive of a link between Asiatic males and the royal families of Egypt.
I know a lot of us don't like using the Bible as a reference but I still can't help but think about Potifer's wife and the story of Joseph.
It sound like you don't know what you're talking about. And try to deflect the question being asked.
So what R1b specification do you speak of?
The bible was altered, by the way. Unless you go to the original sources your bible argument is pointless.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by osirion: It would be nice if someone actually adressed the Amarna letters rather than skirting around the issue.
Why would an Egyptian princess want to marry a Hittite. Why would she show no interest in being with her own kind? Was she not married to her own kind? Why now the interest in a foreigner especially one from an area that we know has R1b populations?
Again, I am not religious about Egypt. Just like there are Black people in European history (even in their royal families), I see no reason why Indo-Europeans could not have also been a part of Egyptian history in somewhat the same way as Blacks in Europe.
Egypt is certainly not a European culture and has affinities with the people of the Sahara and East Africa more so than anywhere else.
But it is an interesting question - why an Asiatic husband?
R1b what?
Sounds like you don't want to discuss the connection between R1b and the Amarna letters.
The Amarna letters are interesting in that it is suggestive of a link between Asiatic males and the royal families of Egypt.
I know a lot of us don't like using the Bible as a reference but I still can't help but think about Potifer's wife and the story of Joseph.
Plus I wonder, did you also read my other posts?
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: AND I AM R1B and I am STILL VERY MUCH BLACK!!!
idiot.
This steament is interesting, since R1b is found in a low frequency in, and within North Africans.
But since Rb1 is just a major clade with many sub clusters and markers it would be nice to address what your markers indicate. this will give more insight.
I, myself will do a genebase test also, although I somewhat know what the markers will be like. The only question will be in what frequency?
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
osirion - As usual, you take the simplest thing, insert a Caucasian, and run with it. How many times must you be told that there was no such people as Hittites, they were Hatti: and R is NOT a White haplogroup?
quote:Originally posted by osirion: It would be nice if someone actually adressed the Amarna letters rather than skirting around the issue.
Why would an Egyptian princess want to marry a Hittite. Why would she show no interest in being with her own kind? Was she not married to her own kind? Why now the interest in a foreigner especially one from an area that we know has R1b populations?
Ankhesenamun's thinking was very understandable, though naive. She was about 19 years old, the man she was required to marry (Ay) was 70 years old. Her mistake cost Zannanza his life, and it ultimately cost her own life.
Again, I am not religious about Egypt. Just like there are Black people in European history (even in their royal families), I see no reason why Indo-Europeans could not have also been a part of Egyptian history in somewhat the same way as Blacks in Europe.
Here your delusions in proportionality show through.
Egypt is certainly not a European culture and has affinities with the people of the Sahara and East Africa more so than anywhere else.
But it is an interesting question - why an Asiatic husband?
The Amarna letters are interesting in that it is suggestive of a link between Asiatic males and the royal families of Egypt.
osirion, everyone but you, understands that these were ONE-WAY "Female" transactions! Egyptians did NOT send their Princesses to foreign courts, they only TOOK Princesses "FROM" foreign courts.
Letter from Kadashman Enlil I, king of Babylon, To Amenhotep III
Kadashman Enlil of Babylon to Amenhotep of Egypt [..missing..] How is it possible that, having written to you in order to ask for the hand of your daughter - oh my brother, you should have written me using such language, telling me that you will not give her to me as since earliest times no daughter of the king of Egypt has ever been given in marriage? Why are you telling me such things? You are the king. You may do as you wish. If you wanted to give me your daughter in marriage who could say you nay?
But you, keeping to your principle of not sending anybody, have not sent me a wife. Have you not been looking for a fraternal and amicable relationship, when you suggested to me - in writing - a marriage, in order to make us become closer? Why hasn't my brother sent me a wife? [...] It is possible for you not to send me a wife, but how could I refuse you a wife and not send her to you, as you did? I have daughters, I will not refuse you in any way concerning this....
As to the gold about which I wrote you, send me now quickly during this summer [.... ] before your messenger reach me, gold in abundance, as much as is available. I could thus achieve the task I have undertaken. If you send me this summer [...] the gold concerning which I've written to you, I shall give you my daughter in marriage. Therefore, send gold, willingly, as much as you please. But if you do not send me gold [...] so I can achieve the task I have undertaken , why haven't you sent me any earlier willingly? After I have finished the task I have undertaken , why would I wish for gold? Even if you sent me 3000 talents of gold I would not accept them. I would return them and would not give you my daughter in marriage.
posted
A Note on the Origins of Ghana EVA L. R. MEYEROWITZ Abstract
We are to-day in the presence of a contemporary myth, the belief of Gold Coast patriots that they descend from the ancient Ghana kingdom, which was disrupted nine centuries ago. Certain leaders, like Dr. J. B. Danquah, go further, and declare that the names Akan and Ghana derive from the Sumerian Akkad, buttressing this assertion with many recondite linguistic parallels, and cultural resemblances like the seven-day week. Mrs. Meyerowitx is one of the leading authorities on the early history of the Gold Coast, and she was invited to write a short note on the subject in the light of modern research notably by R. Mauny, who thinks that there are only the slightest chances of the link between Akan and Ghana, whose true descendants are the Sarakold or Soninkd, first in the Macina, then at Djenne.
Oxford University Press
The central Sahel is characterized by a strong linguistic fragmentation with populations speaking languages belonging to three of the four linguistic families of Africa (Afroasiatic, Niger-Congo, and Nilo-Saharan).
When the linguistic affiliation of the populations from the central Sahel was also taken into account, a clear-cut divide was observed between those speaking Afroasiatic languages (including the Berber-speaking Tuareg, the Semitic Arab Shuwa, and Chadic-speaking populations from northern Cameroon) and the other populations (Mann–Whitney test P¼1.4103), with Chadic-speaking populations mostly contributing to this difference. It is worth noting that, if the finding of 20% R-V88 chromosomes among the Hausa (Table 1) is representative, this population, encompassing by far more people than all other Chadic speakers, 44 also encompasses the highest absolute number of V88 carriers. In contrast to prior studies on nuclear (mostly autosomal) ins/del and microsatellite markers, 45 the Chadic are distinguished from the Nilo-Saharan-speaking populations at the Y chromosome variation level.
Repeated assimilations of Nilo-Saharan females over generations may account for these con- flicting signals. Among the Niger-Congo-speaking populations, the frequency of the haplogroup R-V88 ranged between 0.0 and 66.7%. Outside central Africa, haplogroup R-V88 was only observed in Afroasiatic-speaking populations from northern Africa, with frequencies ranging from 0.3% in Morocco, to 3.0% in Algeria, and to 11.5% in Egypt, where a particularly high frequency (26.9%) was observed among the Berbers from the Siwa Oasis.
This haplo is 0 to 1% frequency in individuals, in some South European populations! HOW COME?
University of Illinois
WHC: You describe two other groups. One of them is the Afrasans. Can you talk about them for a moment?
Ehret: These are people who have been called Afro-Asiatic and also Afrasian. I'm saying "Afrasan" because I'm trying to get "Asia" out. There is still this idea that the Afro-Asiatic family had to come out of Asia. Once you realize that it's an African family with one little Asian offshoot, well, that itself is a very important lesson for world historians.
We actually have DNA evidence which fits very well with an intrusion of people from northwestern African into southwestern Asia. The Y-chromosome markers, associated with the male, fade out as you go deeper into the Middle East.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: It would be nice if someone actually adressed the Amarna letters rather than skirting around the issue.
Why would an Egyptian princess want to marry a Hittite. Why would she show no interest in being with her own kind? Was she not married to her own kind? Why now the interest in a foreigner especially one from an area that we know has R1b populations?
Again, I am not religious about Egypt. Just like there are Black people in European history (even in their royal families), I see no reason why Indo-Europeans could not have also been a part of Egyptian history in somewhat the same way as Blacks in Europe.
Egypt is certainly not a European culture and has affinities with the people of the Sahara and East Africa more so than anywhere else.
But it is an interesting question - why an Asiatic husband?
R1b what?
Sounds like you don't want to discuss the connection between R1b and the Amarna letters.
The Amarna letters are interesting in that it is suggestive of a link between Asiatic males and the royal families of Egypt.
I know a lot of us don't like using the Bible as a reference but I still can't help but think about Potifer's wife and the story of Joseph.
It sound like you don't know what you're talking about. And try to deflect the question being asked.
So what R1b specification do you speak of?
The bible was altered, by the way. Unless you go to the original sources your bible argument is pointless.
Not trying to argue. Maybe that is the problem here. I am asking for an open minded opinion.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: osirion - As usual, you take the simplest thing, insert a Caucasian, and run with it. How many times must you be told that there was no such people as Hittites, they were Hatti: and R is NOT a White haplogroup?
quote:Originally posted by osirion: It would be nice if someone actually adressed the Amarna letters rather than skirting around the issue.
Why would an Egyptian princess want to marry a Hittite. Why would she show no interest in being with her own kind? Was she not married to her own kind? Why now the interest in a foreigner especially one from an area that we know has R1b populations?
Ankhesenamun's thinking was very understandable, though naive. She was about 19 years old, the man she was required to marry (Ay) was 70 years old. Her mistake cost Zannanza his life, and it ultimately cost her own life.
Again, I am not religious about Egypt. Just like there are Black people in European history (even in their royal families), I see no reason why Indo-Europeans could not have also been a part of Egyptian history in somewhat the same way as Blacks in Europe.
Here your delusions in proportionality show through.
Egypt is certainly not a European culture and has affinities with the people of the Sahara and East Africa more so than anywhere else.
But it is an interesting question - why an Asiatic husband?
The Amarna letters are interesting in that it is suggestive of a link between Asiatic males and the royal families of Egypt.
osirion, everyone but you, understands that these were ONE-WAY "Female" transactions! Egyptians did NOT send their Princesses to foreign courts, they only TOOK Princesses "FROM" foreign courts.
Letter from Kadashman Enlil I, king of Babylon, To Amenhotep III
Kadashman Enlil of Babylon to Amenhotep of Egypt [..missing..] How is it possible that, having written to you in order to ask for the hand of your daughter - oh my brother, you should have written me using such language, telling me that you will not give her to me as since earliest times no daughter of the king of Egypt has ever been given in marriage? Why are you telling me such things? You are the king. You may do as you wish. If you wanted to give me your daughter in marriage who could say you nay?
But you, keeping to your principle of not sending anybody, have not sent me a wife. Have you not been looking for a fraternal and amicable relationship, when you suggested to me - in writing - a marriage, in order to make us become closer? Why hasn't my brother sent me a wife? [...] It is possible for you not to send me a wife, but how could I refuse you a wife and not send her to you, as you did? I have daughters, I will not refuse you in any way concerning this....
As to the gold about which I wrote you, send me now quickly during this summer [.... ] before your messenger reach me, gold in abundance, as much as is available. I could thus achieve the task I have undertaken. If you send me this summer [...] the gold concerning which I've written to you, I shall give you my daughter in marriage. Therefore, send gold, willingly, as much as you please. But if you do not send me gold [...] so I can achieve the task I have undertaken , why haven't you sent me any earlier willingly? After I have finished the task I have undertaken , why would I wish for gold? Even if you sent me 3000 talents of gold I would not accept them. I would return them and would not give you my daughter in marriage.
First, I will not listen to a racist.
Second, I didn't say anything about R1b being Caucasian. If we don't want to call them Hittites then how about Syrians or Turks, etc.
Point is that R1b is not uncommon in Syrians and Turks and it is from this population that the Wife of Tut wanted a husband.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Understand that perfectly, but I am asking for specific markers of the R1b type.
The "African" variant is not found in Europe. Its merely found amongst certain African populations. Which are found in abundance in Sahara living populations, where the Nile Valley culture is rooted.
And since you've inserted this R1b, I like to get specific. What markers are you talking about. And do you have genetic studies on the Hittite?
Also, how is it you first call them Indo-Europeans and then Asian men?
The Berbers who do carry the specific R1b marker in the regions of Lybia/ Egypt, are the Siwa. And are like other Northeast Africans abundantly E-M78. Whereas other Berber groups mainly carry the downstream E-M81 of the parent clade E-M78.
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by osirion: It would be nice if someone actually adressed the Amarna letters rather than skirting around the issue.
Why would an Egyptian princess want to marry a Hittite. Why would she show no interest in being with her own kind? Was she not married to her own kind? Why now the interest in a foreigner especially one from an area that we know has R1b populations?
Again, I am not religious about Egypt. Just like there are Black people in European history (even in their royal families), I see no reason why Indo-Europeans could not have also been a part of Egyptian history in somewhat the same way as Blacks in Europe.
Egypt is certainly not a European culture and has affinities with the people of the Sahara and East Africa more so than anywhere else.
But it is an interesting question - why an Asiatic husband?
R1b what?
Sounds like you don't want to discuss the connection between R1b and the Amarna letters.
The Amarna letters are interesting in that it is suggestive of a link between Asiatic males and the royal families of Egypt.
I know a lot of us don't like using the Bible as a reference but I still can't help but think about Potifer's wife and the story of Joseph.
It sound like you don't know what you're talking about. And try to deflect the question being asked.
So what R1b specification do you speak of?
The bible was altered, by the way. Unless you go to the original sources your bible argument is pointless.
Not trying to argue. Maybe that is the problem here. I am asking for an open minded opinion.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Understand that perfectly, but I am asking for specific markers of the R1b type.
The "African" variant is not found in Europe. Its merely found amongst certain African populations. Which are found in abundance in Sahara living populations, where the Nile Valley culture is rooted.
And since you've inserted this R1b, I like to get specific. What markers are you talking about. And do you have genetic studies on the Hittite?
Also, how is it you first call them Indo-Europeans and then Asian men?
The Berbers who do carry the specific R1b marker in the regions of Lybia/ Egypt, are the Siwa. And are like other Northeast Africans abundantly E-M78. Whereas other Berber groups mainly carry the downstream E-M81 of the parent clade E-M78.
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by osirion: It would be nice if someone actually adressed the Amarna letters rather than skirting around the issue.
Why would an Egyptian princess want to marry a Hittite. Why would she show no interest in being with her own kind? Was she not married to her own kind? Why now the interest in a foreigner especially one from an area that we know has R1b populations?
Again, I am not religious about Egypt. Just like there are Black people in European history (even in their royal families), I see no reason why Indo-Europeans could not have also been a part of Egyptian history in somewhat the same way as Blacks in Europe.
Egypt is certainly not a European culture and has affinities with the people of the Sahara and East Africa more so than anywhere else.
But it is an interesting question - why an Asiatic husband?
R1b what?
Sounds like you don't want to discuss the connection between R1b and the Amarna letters.
The Amarna letters are interesting in that it is suggestive of a link between Asiatic males and the royal families of Egypt.
I know a lot of us don't like using the Bible as a reference but I still can't help but think about Potifer's wife and the story of Joseph.
It sound like you don't know what you're talking about. And try to deflect the question being asked.
So what R1b specification do you speak of?
The bible was altered, by the way. Unless you go to the original sources your bible argument is pointless.
Not trying to argue. Maybe that is the problem here. I am asking for an open minded opinion.
Western Asiatics - Indo European - Eurasian
I retract all of this and replace it with:
Turko-Syrian people.
In terms of R1b in me - that is because I have a Scottish ancestor.
In terms of R1b in Tut - it is all speculation.
If it isn't the African variant then my point about the Amarna letters comes into play.
Was it more than just Tut's wife that married Turks? Was she herself of Turkish ancestry?
Have Turks been mixing with NE Africans for quite sometime?
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Understand that perfectly, but I am asking for specific markers of the R1b type.
The "African" variant is not found in Europe. Its merely found amongst certain African populations. Which are found in abundance in Sahara living populations, where the Nile Valley culture is rooted.
And since you've inserted this R1b, I like to get specific. What markers are you talking about. And do you have genetic studies on the Hittite?
Also, how is it you first call them Indo-Europeans and then Asian men?
The Berbers who do carry the specific R1b marker in the regions of Lybia/ Egypt, are the Siwa. And are like other Northeast Africans abundantly E-M78. Whereas other Berber groups mainly carry the downstream E-M81 of the parent clade E-M78.
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by osirion: It would be nice if someone actually adressed the Amarna letters rather than skirting around the issue.
Why would an Egyptian princess want to marry a Hittite. Why would she show no interest in being with her own kind? Was she not married to her own kind? Why now the interest in a foreigner especially one from an area that we know has R1b populations?
Again, I am not religious about Egypt. Just like there are Black people in European history (even in their royal families), I see no reason why Indo-Europeans could not have also been a part of Egyptian history in somewhat the same way as Blacks in Europe.
Egypt is certainly not a European culture and has affinities with the people of the Sahara and East Africa more so than anywhere else.
But it is an interesting question - why an Asiatic husband?
R1b what?
Sounds like you don't want to discuss the connection between R1b and the Amarna letters.
The Amarna letters are interesting in that it is suggestive of a link between Asiatic males and the royal families of Egypt.
I know a lot of us don't like using the Bible as a reference but I still can't help but think about Potifer's wife and the story of Joseph.
It sound like you don't know what you're talking about. And try to deflect the question being asked.
So what R1b specification do you speak of?
The bible was altered, by the way. Unless you go to the original sources your bible argument is pointless.
Not trying to argue. Maybe that is the problem here. I am asking for an open minded opinion.
Western Asiatics - Indo European - Eurasian
I retract all of this and replace it with:
Turko-Syrian people.
In terms of R1b in me - that is because I have a Scottish ancestor.
In terms of R1b in Tut - it is all speculation.
If it isn't the African variant then my point about the Amarna letters comes into play.
Was it more than just Tut's wife that married Turks? Was she herself of Turkish ancestry?
Have Turks been mixing with NE Africans for quite sometime?
You don't seem to answer my question: R1b what exactly? I have repeated myself many times.
So you have a Scottish ancestor? Likely the subclade/ downstream R1b1b2a1a2f2? Which is odd since North Africans carry the African types from 0 to 4% in frequency.
And now all of a sudden Tuts dna is speculation, when it appears to cluster very well with the history of the region and the people?
Well, EGYPT is like all of Northeast Africa composed of E-M78 which has the parent clade E-M35. And Siwa Berbers carry this R* haplo in the highest frequency in that region, 23%. On average it's about 11% in Egypt.
Another add one I like to make here is:
National Berber symbol
The Tuareg script.
The basis of Berber languages are the Chadic languages. And Chadic languages are at the basis, and have spread the Afroasiatic linguistic groups.
Kanaga Mask in Three Pieces
Dancers perform with Kanaga masks at ceremonies honoring the dead. Rotating their upper bodies from the hips and swinging the masks in wide circles, the dancers imitate Amma, the creator god, who brought all things to life. Their outstretched movements spread the life force throughout the world.
Amma and Amon is only a slit of difference, considering the fact that language is dynamic. And according to the principles, the root word is however the same; AM.
Oddly Amon (AMEN) means the Hidden one, and the Kanaga masks at ceremonies is for honoring the dead (the Hidden).
R1b-M412 appears to be the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in Western Europe (470%), while being virtually absent in the Near East, the Caucasus and West Asia. And likely they did not carry sickle-cell disease.
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Understand that perfectly, but I am asking for specific markers of the R1b type.
The "African" variant is not found in Europe. Its merely found amongst certain African populations. Which are found in abundance in Sahara living populations, where the Nile Valley culture is rooted.
And since you've inserted this R1b, I like to get specific. What markers are you talking about. And do you have genetic studies on the Hittite?
Also, how is it you first call them Indo-Europeans and then Asian men?
The Berbers who do carry the specific R1b marker in the regions of Lybia/ Egypt, are the Siwa. And are like other Northeast Africans abundantly E-M78. Whereas other Berber groups mainly carry the downstream E-M81 of the parent clade E-M78.
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by osirion: It would be nice if someone actually adressed the Amarna letters rather than skirting around the issue.
Why would an Egyptian princess want to marry a Hittite. Why would she show no interest in being with her own kind? Was she not married to her own kind? Why now the interest in a foreigner especially one from an area that we know has R1b populations?
Again, I am not religious about Egypt. Just like there are Black people in European history (even in their royal families), I see no reason why Indo-Europeans could not have also been a part of Egyptian history in somewhat the same way as Blacks in Europe.
Egypt is certainly not a European culture and has affinities with the people of the Sahara and East Africa more so than anywhere else.
But it is an interesting question - why an Asiatic husband?
R1b what?
Sounds like you don't want to discuss the connection between R1b and the Amarna letters.
The Amarna letters are interesting in that it is suggestive of a link between Asiatic males and the royal families of Egypt.
I know a lot of us don't like using the Bible as a reference but I still can't help but think about Potifer's wife and the story of Joseph.
It sound like you don't know what you're talking about. And try to deflect the question being asked.
So what R1b specification do you speak of?
The bible was altered, by the way. Unless you go to the original sources your bible argument is pointless.
Not trying to argue. Maybe that is the problem here. I am asking for an open minded opinion.
Western Asiatics - Indo European - Eurasian
I retract all of this and replace it with:
Turko-Syrian people.
In terms of R1b in me - that is because I have a Scottish ancestor.
In terms of R1b in Tut - it is all speculation.
If it isn't the African variant then my point about the Amarna letters comes into play.
Was it more than just Tut's wife that married Turks? Was she herself of Turkish ancestry?
Have Turks been mixing with NE Africans for quite sometime?
I was under the assumption the Royal Fam married within the Fam only, to preserve the bloodline? Howcome a Turkish wife, when modern, the present Turks are only recently in that region, anyway?
These is the depiction of Tut Ankh Amun's wife (if I am correct here). And notice her name: Ankh Esen Amun
Oddly in the same region you will find.....
King Tut died from sickle-cell disease, not malariaJust like his ancestors!
King Tutankhamun died from sickle-cell disease, not malaria, say experts. A team from Hamburg's Bernhard Noct Institute for Tropical Medicine (BNI) claim the disease is a far likelier cause of death than the combination of bone disorders and malaria put forward by Egyptian experts earlier this year.
The BNI team argues that theories offered by Egyptian experts, led by antiquities tsar Zahi Hawass, are based on data that can be interpreted otherwise. They say further analysis of the data will confirm or deny their work. Hawass' claim, published in the Journal of the American Medical Association this February, and followed by a swarm of accompanying television shows, claimed King Tut suffered from Kohler's disease, a bone disorder prohibiting blood flow, before succumbing to malaria.
Multiple bone disorders, including one in Tutankhamun's left foot, led to the Kohler's diagnosis, while segments of a malarial parasite were found via DNA testing. Yet the BNI team claims the latter results are incorrect. “Malaria in combination with Köhler's disease causing Tutankhamun's early death seems unlikely to us,” say Prof Christian Meyer and Dr Christian Timmann.
Instead the BNI team feels sickle-cell disease (SCD), a genetic blood disorder, is a more likely reason for the Pharaoh's death aged just 19. The disease occurs in 9 to 22 per cent of people living in the Egyptian oases, and gives a better chance of surviving malaria; the infestation halted by sickled cells.
They say the disease occurs frequently in malarial regions like the River Nile, and that it would account for the bone defects found on his body.
“The genetic predisposition for (SCD) can be found in regions where malaria frequently occurs, including ancient and modern Egypt.” says Meyer. “The disease can only manifest itself when a sickle cell trait is inherited from both parents: it is a so-called 'recessive inheritance'.” A family tree for the Pharaoh suggested by Hawass himself appears to back the BNI team's case.
The relatively old age of Tutankhamun's parents and relatives – up to 50 years – means they could very well have carried sickle-cell traits, and could therefore have been highly resistant to malaria. The high likelihood that King Tut's parents were siblings means he could have inherited the sickle cell trait from both and suffered from SCD.
“Sickle-cell disease is an important differential diagnosis: one that existing DNA material can probably confirm or rule out,” conclude Timmann and Meyer. They suggest that further testing of ancient Egyptian royal mummies should bear their conclusions in mind.
King Tut's young demise has long been a source of speculation. As well as malaria, recent decades have seen scholars argue that he was murdered, and that he died from infection caused by a broken leg.
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