quote:

---

If King Tut was R1b then I would speculate that it was due to Hittites.

From the Amarna letters we have Ankhesenamon who apparently wrote a letter to Suppilulumia informing him that she had no sons of her own and asked him to send to her one of his sons whom she would marry and make Pharaoh. Now why would an Egyptian want to have a Hittite as a Pharaoh? Perhaps there's more to this than we had previously known.

Lets keep in mind that this is a period by which alliances were formed by such marriages. So if King Tut did have R1b the question would be was it due to an ancient alliance between Asiatics and Africans?

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quote:

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Though African haplogroup R chromosomes are generally quite rare, R-P25* (R1b1*) chromosomes are found at remarkably high frequencies in northern Cameroon (60.7–94.7%),[26] especially among the Ouldeme of Northern Cameroon in west central Africa, aging at least 4,100 years.[27] R1*-M173 are also observed in the Bantu of southern Cameroon (14.3%), Oman (10.7%), Egypt (6.8%), and the Hutu (1.4%). Whereas the R1*-M173 undifferentiated lineage is present in all four populations, the two downstream mutations, M17 (R1a1) and M269 (R1b1b2, formerly R1b1c or R1b3), are confined to Egypt and Oman. It is plausible that the African and Omani R1*-M173 chromosomes may be relics of an ancient back migration from Asia to Africa, which may have been a southern branch of an Upper Paleolithic westward expansion of this clade. The antiquity of the M173 backflow is implied by the total lack in sub-Saharan Africa of downstream mutations R1a1-M17 and R1b1b2-M269, associated with the post–Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) reinhabitation of Eurasia.[28]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Apocalypse:
Osiron wrote:

quote:

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If King Tut was R1b then I would speculate that it was due to Hittites.

From the Amarna letters we have Ankhesenamon who apparently wrote a letter to Suppilulumia informing him that she had no sons of her own and asked him to send to her one of his sons whom she would marry and make Pharaoh. Now why would an Egyptian want to have a Hittite as a Pharaoh? Perhaps there's more to this than we had previously known.

Lets keep in mind that this is a period by which alliances were formed by such marriages. So if King Tut did have R1b the question would be was it due to an ancient alliance between Asiatics and Africans?

---

You go off the deep end like a chicken with its head cut off based upon absolutely nothing. This is an unfounded internet rumor yet you're so willing to draw absurd conclusions.

Its already been documented that 6-7% of Egyptians have underived R1b in a form found only in Africa and Oman. Yet you're all over the place with this from dynastic race now to Hittite founders of the 18th Pharoahs.

Have you completely forgetten that the 18th dynasty traces it origins to Sequenenre Tao who chased Asiatics out of Egypt. Further more the Egytians have no memory of Europe and its not mentioned anywhere in their mythology. To the contrary the 18th dynasty went further than any previous in explicitly stating that the origin of their Kingship is to be found much further south in Africa.

quote:

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Though African haplogroup R chromosomes are generally quite rare, R-P25* (R1b1*) chromosomes are found at remarkably high frequencies in northern Cameroon (60.7–94.7%),[26] especially among the Ouldeme of Northern Cameroon in west central Africa, aging at least 4,100 years.[27] R1*-M173 are also observed in the Bantu of southern Cameroon (14.3%), Oman (10.7%), Egypt (6.8%), and the Hutu (1.4%). Whereas the R1*-M173 undifferentiated lineage is present in all four populations, the two downstream mutations, M17 (R1a1) and M269 (R1b1b2, formerly R1b1c or R1b3), are confined to Egypt and Oman. It is plausible that the African and Omani R1*-M173 chromosomes may be relics of an ancient back migration from Asia to Africa, which may have been a southern branch of an Upper Paleolithic westward expansion of this clade. The antiquity of the M173 backflow is implied by the total lack in sub-Saharan Africa of downstream mutations R1a1-M17 and R1b1b2-M269, associated with the post–Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) reinhabitation of Eurasia.[28]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:
Before going over the deep edge, it might be a good idea to define who or what is a Hittite.

Hint; there were no such people as Hittites. Modern White historians took certain liberties from the king James Bible.

In which case, who were the people misidentified as Hittites, and what was their relationship to Egyptians.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by homeylu:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
Before going over the deep edge, it might be a good idea to define who or what is a Hittite.

Hint; there were no such people as Hittites. Modern White historians took certain liberties from the king James Bible.

In which case, who were the people misidentified as Hittites, and what was their relationship to Egyptians.

---

Some of the 'hypothesis' presented on this site, should not be taken as more than a source of pure entertainment, am I the only that laughs at half the *bleep* I read here before trying to respond with a straight face.

---

You notice most of the Garbage posted s by uneducated, unlearned Trolls, Like Oririon, Hammer, Afronut, Bettyboo, Fawal, Egmond Codfried, Marc Washington..etc. Their whole agenda is to degrade E.S becuase it is a thorn in the side of their Eurocentrist delusional propaganda. To them the Egyptians are Indian, Tri Lankan, Europeans, Mixed, Mediteranian, Red Headed, Aryan...anything but African. Yet its us Afrocentris STEALING the Culture of Egypt. So expect more Trolls to come out of the woodworks with stupid ass threads like this one.
 

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Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
 
If you guys want to really discuss Tuts DNA Al-Takruri opened a Thread in the other Forum. I think no one whit a serious broain should further entertain this garbage and waste of a thread..
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
I have no idea what the DNA results for Tut are. But I was always taught to consider the source. In this case, the source is Hawass the liar, who once said that the Egyptians were not Black. The other source is White people, who for centuries have been trying to make the same claim.


This is the mask of an African youth.




.

This is a chair depicting that African youth and his wife.
Both artifacts are of a type, and made of materials that cannot be easily modified.



.


This is a WOODEN statue of that SAME African youth - wooden artifacts are easily modified.
Make of it what you will.



 

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Posted by homeylu (Member # 4430) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:
BTW - Think anyone will come back with who it was that was misidentified as the Hittites?

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Hmm, I dunno, lets get some popcorn and wait and see.

quote:

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Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
To them the Egyptians are Indian, Tri Lankan, Europeans, Mixed, Mediteranian, Red Headed, Aryan...anything but African.

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LMAO, Tri Lankan? That's a first for me.
 

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Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
 
Bunch of religious Afro-Nuts reacting to what they see as heresy.

As I said, if Tut was R1b then the Amarna letters have more credence than what they have been given. You guys have not even dealt with that at all but instead just played the Negro.

Yo Mama that and you mamma this. Childish.

As for Tut's facial features, there are many people of Sri Lanka - not Tri Lanka; Negro, that have those features.

In fact, people of Sri Lanka in many ways look not much different than the Sudanese people.


 

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Posted by ameny-ra (Member # 17092) on :
 
The only evidence of a Hittite alliance in the 18th Dynasty,was after the death of King Tut,when Ankhesenamen pleaded to the Hittite King Suppiliuma to be prince of Egypt,and he was killed by Horemheb sometime later, before even taking the throne, but before that incident,Egyptians were at war with Asiatics (Hittites,Hyksos,Assyrians etc)if King Tut had any Asian blood in him (which I doubt)it would have been through an Asiatic women who was one of Pharaoh's concubine, but since there is no real evidence of King Tut being R1b,then I stick to the fact that King Tut was of African descent and came from an African mother and African Father with no Hittite admixture what so ever,let's stick to the facts of hitory first before making assumptions.
 

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Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
Before going over the deep edge, it might be a good idea to define who or what is a Hittite.

Hint; there were no such people as Hittites. Modern White historians took certain liberties from the king James Bible.

In which case, who were the people misidentified as Hittites, and what was their relationship to Egyptians.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ameny-ra:
The only evidence of a Hittite alliance in the 18th Dynasty,was after the death of King Tut,when Ankhesenamen pleaded to the Hittite King Suppiliuma to be prince of Egypt,and he was killed by Horemheb sometime later, before even taking the throne, but before that incident,Egyptians were at war with Asiatics (Hittites,Hyksos,Assyrians etc)if King Tut had any Asian blood in him (which I doubt)it would have been through an Asiatic women who was one of Pharaoh's concubine, but since there is no real evidence of King Tut being R1b,then I stick to the fact that King Tut was of African descent and came from an African mother and African Father with no Hittite admixture what so ever,let's stick to the facts of hitory first before making assumptions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
Before going over the deep edge, it might be a good idea to define who or what is a Hittite.

Hint; there were no such people as Hittites. Modern White historians took certain liberties from the king James Bible.

In which case, who were the people misidentified as Hittites, and what was their relationship to Egyptians.

---

For that matter there aren't any Egyptians or Nubians - all names given to these people by Europeans. So stop playing stupid games.

---

.
My interest are not that trivial;

Whether known as Egypt or Kemet, there is still a real civilization involved.

Whether known as Nubia or Meroe, there is still a real civilization involved.

However there never was a Hittite Empire;
In the researchers words; They speculate that the so-called Hittite empire, is really a confusion with that of the Hattians, Phrygians, Chaldeans, Babylonians, or some other ancient Empire. And that this is why, neither ancient Greek, or any other ancient historians, ever mentioned it.


That speaks to the veracity of White historians.

.

Why would they do it?



.

Kind of the same thing that you are trying to do, isn't it osirion?

.
.


REAL ANATOLIAN'S!!






 

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Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
 
^ So what did the Egyptians call these people? I will use that name if that will help.
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
White historians have really screwed this up, and many still use Hittite.

During the time of Tuts father Akhenaten, the Hattie were on the rise, so I go with them.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
The Blacks who founded the Historic civilizations in Anatolia came from the Proto-Sahara.

These ancient Proto-Saharans as noted in earlier chapters were called Kushites.The Greco-Roman writers made it clear that there were two Kushite empires one in Asia and the other group in the area we call the Sudan,Nubia,
and parts of southern Egypt. The Greek writer Homer alluded to the two Kushite empires, when he wrote "a race divided, whom the sloping rays; the
rising and the setting sun surveys". The Greek traveler/historian Herodutus claimed that he derived this information from the Egyptians.

The Asian Proto-Saharans were also called Kushites or Ethiopians. The term Ethiopian comes from two Greek terms: Ethios 'burnt' and ops 'face', as a result Ethiopian means the 'burnt faces'. Herodutus and Homer, described these Ethiopians as "the most just of men;the favorites of the gods". The classical literature makes it clear that the region from Egypt to India was called by the name Ethiopia.

For example, the Elamites called themselves KHATAM, and their capital Susa:KUSSI. In addition, the Kassites, who occupied the central part of the
Zagros mountains were called KASHSHU. The Kushana, who helped invent the Meroitic writing, formerly occupied Chinese Turkistan (Xinjiang) and the Gansu province of China.

The Kushites in Asia, as in Africa were known for their skill as bowmen :Steu , the name of the people of Ta-Seti.

The decipherer of the cuneiform writing of Mesopotamia, Rawlingson, said Puntites and Kushites were established in Asia. He found mention of Kushiya and Puntiya in the inscriptions of Darius. He also made it clear
that the name Kush was also applied to southern Persia, India, Elam, Arabia, and Colchis (a part of southern Russia/Turkistan) in ancient times.


The Armenians made it clear that the ancients called Persia, Media,Elam , Aria, and the entire area between the Tigris and Indus rivers
Kush.Bardesones, writing in his Book of the Laws of Countries, in the 2nd Century said that the "Bactrians who we called Qushani (or Kushans)".The
Armenians, called the earlier Parthian: Kushan and acknowledged their connection with them. Homer, Herodotus, and the Roman scholar Strabo called
southern Persia AETHIOPIA. The Greeks and Romans called the country east of Kerma: Kusan.

From Iran the Kushites used the natural entry point into China along the path running from the Zagros to the Altai mountains, and the Dzunganian
gate. There is archaeological evidence indicating that farming communities village sites were established along this path of similar origin, which date back to 3500 BC. The archaeological data indicate that this agricultural economy spread from west to east.

Can these numerous Blacks in this area in ancient times explain the presense of R1 in this region today?

Concomitant Replacement of Language and mtDNA in South Caspian Populations of Iran - all 6 versions »
I Nasidze, D Quinque, M Rahmani, SA Alemohamad, M … - Current Biology, 2006 - Elsevier
... Haplogroup J2 (M172) was found at high frequency in both groups, as was haplogroup
R1 (M173); together, these two haplogroups account for more than 50% of ...




It is interesting that the Levels of R1* from Cruciani et al. 2002 indicate that many Africans/ Blacks carry this haplogroup (language group & country in parentheses):

Ouldeme - 95% (Cameroon)
Mixed Chadic - 67%
Mixed Adamawa - 56%
Daba - 44% (C)
Fali - 23% (C)
Fulbe (Cameroon) - 12%* (also 5% K2)
Mixed Nilo-Saharan - 11%
Tali - 7% (C)

Rawlinson and the Classical authors was sure that the Kushite Nations in Asia, were founded by Africans. The genetic evidence may offer considerable support and proof to their proposition.


.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hatti

Using boats the Kushites moved down ancient waterways many now dried up, to establish new towns in Asia and Europe after 3500 BC. The Kushites remained supreme around the world until 1400-1200 BC. During this period the Hua (Chinese) and Indo-European (I-E) speakers began to conquer the Kushites whose cities and economies were destroyed as a result of natural catastrophes which took place on the planet between 1400-1200 BC. Later, after 500 AD, Turkish speaking people began to settle parts of Central Asia. This is the reason behind the presence of the K-s-h element in many place names in Asia e.g., Kashgar, HinduKush, and Kosh. The HinduKush in Harappan times had lapis lazuli deposits.

Kushites expanded into Inner Asia from two primary points of dispersal : Iran and Anatolia. In Anatolia the Kushites were called Hattians and Kaska. In the 2nd millennium BC, the north and east of Anatolia was inhabited by non-I-E speakers.

Anatolia was divided into two lands “the land of Kanis” and the “land of Hatti”. The Hatti were related to the Kaska people who lived in the Pontic mountains.

Hattians lived in Anatolia. They worshipped Kasku and Kusuh. They were especially prominent in the Pontic mountains. Their sister nation in the Halys Basin were the Kaska tribes. The Kaska and Hattians share the same names for gods, along with personal and place-names . The Kaska had a strong empire which was never defeated by the Hittites.

Singer (1981) has suggested that the Kaska, are remnants of the indigenous Hattian population which was forced northward by the Hittites. But at least as late as 1800 BC, Anatolia was basically settled by Hattians.

Anatolia was occupied by many Kushite groups,including the Kashkas and or Hatti. The Hatti , like the Dravidian speaking people were probably related .

References:

Itamar Singer, Hittites and Hattians in Anatolia at the beginning of the Second Millennium B.C., Journal of Indo-European Studies, 9 (1-2) (1981), pp.119-149.

Gerd Steiner, The role of the Hittites in ancient Anatolia, Journal of Indo-European Studies, 9 (1-2) (1981), 119-149.

.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
The West Africans formerly lived in the Egypto-Sudan. They are descendants of the ancient Kushites. They probably took hg R1 to Anatolia.

quote:

---

The Levant versus the Horn of Africa: Evidence for Bidirectional Corridors of Human Migrations
J. R. Luis,1,2,* D. J. Rowold,1,* M. Regueiro,2 B. Caeiro,2 C. Cinnioğlu,3 C. Roseman,3 P. A. Underhill,3 L. L. Cavalli-Sforza,3 and R. J. Herrera1

web page
Paleoanthropological evidence indicates that both the Levantine corridor and the Horn of Africa served, repeatedly, as migratory corridors between Africa and Eurasia. We have begun investigating the roles of these passageways in bidirectional migrations of anatomically modern humans, by analyzing 45 informative biallelic markers as well as 10 microsatellite loci on the nonrecombining region of the Y chromosome (NRY) in 121 and 147 extant males from Oman and northern Egypt, respectively. The present study uncovers three important points concerning these demic movements: (1) The E3b1-M78 and E3b3-M123 lineages, as well as the R1*-M173 lineages, mark gene flow between Egypt and the Levant during the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic. (2) In contrast, the Horn of Africa appears to be of minor importance in the human migratory movements between Africa and Eurasia represented by these chromosomes, an observation based on the frequency distributions of E3b*-M35 (no known downstream mutations) and M173. (3) The areal diffusion patterns of G-M201, J-12f2, the derivative M173 haplogroups, and M2 suggest more recent genetic associations between the Middle East and Africa, involving the Levantine corridor and/or Arab slave routes. Affinities to African groups were also evaluated by determining the NRY haplogroup composition in 434 samples from seven sub-Saharan African populations. Oman and Egypt’s NRY frequency distributions appear to be much more similar to those of the Middle East than to any sub-Saharan African population, suggesting a much larger Eurasian genetic component. Finally, the overall phylogeographic profile reveals several clinal patterns and genetic partitions that may indicate source, direction, and relative timing of different waves of dispersals and expansions involving these nine populations.

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quote:

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European Journal of Human Genetics (2005) 13, 856–866. doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201390 Published online 9 March 2005
web page

High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages characterized by E3b1, DYS19-11, DYS392-12 in Somali males
Juan J Sanchez1, Charlotte Hallenberg1, Claus Børsting1, Alexis Hernandez2 and Niels Morling1

1Department of Forensic Genetics, Institute of Forensic Medicine, University of Copenhagen, Denmark
2Departamento de Canarias, Instituto Nacional de Toxicología, La Laguna, Tenerife, Spain
Correspondence: Dr JJ Sanchez, Department of Forensic Genetics, Institute of Forensic Medicine, University of Copenhagen, 11 Frederik V's Vej, DK-2100 Copenhagen, Denmark. Tel: +45 35 32 62 87; Fax: +45 35 32 61 20; E-mail: juan.sanchez@forensic.ku.dk

Received 2 September 2004; Revised 12 January 2005; Accepted 21 January 2005; Published online 9 March 2005.

Top of pageAbstract
We genotyped 45 biallelic markers and 11 STR systems on the Y chromosome in 201 male Somalis. In addition, 65 sub-Saharan Western Africans, 59 Turks and 64 Iraqis were typed for the biallelic Y chromosome markers. In Somalis, 14 Y chromosome haplogroups were identified including E3b1 (77.6%) and K2 (10.4%). The haplogroup E3b1 with the rare DYS19-11 allele (also called the E3b1 cluster ) was found in 75.1% of male Somalis, and 70.6% of Somali Y chromosomes were E3b1, DYS19-11, DYS392-12, DYS437-14, DYS438-11 and DYS393-13. The haplotype diversity of eight Y-STRs ('minimal haplotype') was 0.9575 compared to an average of 0.9974 and 0.9996 in European and Asian populations. In sub-Saharan Western Africans, only four haplogroups were identified. The West African clade E3a was found in 89.2% of the samples and the haplogroup E3b1 was not observed. In Turks, 12 haplogroups were found including J2*(xJ2f2) (27.1%), R1b3*(xR1b3d, R1b3f) (20.3%), E3b3 and R1a1*(xR1a1b) (both 11.9%). In Iraqis, 12 haplogroups were identified including J2*(xJ2f2) (29.7%) and J*(xJ2) (26.6%). The data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population – closely related to the Oromos in Ethiopia and North Kenya – with predominant E3b1 cluster lineages that were introduced into the Somali population 4000–5000 years ago, and that the Somali male population has approximately 15% Y chromosomes from Eurasia and approximately 5% from sub-Saharan Africa.


samples came from a larger, homogenous population of Somalis.

The haplogroup K2 was found in 10.4% of Somali males. Haplogroup K2 was suggested to have arisen in Eurasia.4, 9 K2 has a patchy distribution in Cameroon (18.0%), Egypt (8.2%), Ethiopia (4.8%), Tanzania (3.8%) and Morocco (3.6%), probably due to back migration.3, 7, 8, 9 Luis et al9 estimated an expansion time of 13.7–17.5 ky for the K2 lineages in Egypt. The BATWING expansion time estimated for K2 in our Somali population (3.3 ky) is consistent with an African southward dissemination of the K2 haplogroup. The observation of two Somali males with the M17 mutation (haplogroup R1a1*(xR1a1b)) may indicate a recent gene flow by migration from Eurasia.47, 48 A possible explanation is offered by the fact that from the 7th century onward, immigrant Muslim Arabs and Persians established trading posts along the Somali cost51, although also British, French and Italian people were present in Somalia in the region in the 19th and 20th century.

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The presence of similar genes among the Cameroonians fail to support a Eurasian origin for these genes. It suggest that they arrived in Eurasia recently.

Although the authors of this study speculate that these genes may have come to Africa as a result of back migration around 5000-4000 bp, this date corresponds to the expansion of the so-called Kushite people from Africa. According to Col Rawlinson the Kushites founded the Sumerian (and Elamite civilizations). It was these Kushites who probably spread E3B1 (E3B3),R1, K2 etc. into Eurasian.

.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
William Leo Hansberry gives a great discussion of the evidence of African Kushites ruling in Asia and Africa. Some ancient scholars noted that the first rulers of Elam were of Kushite ( Kerma ? ) origin. According to Strabo, the first Elamite colony at Susa was founded by Tithnus, a King of Kush. Strabo in Book 15, Chapter 3728 wrote that in fact it is claimed that Susa was founded by Tithonus Memnon's father, and his citadel bore the name Memnonium. The Susians are also called Cissians. Aeschylus, calls Memnon's mother Cissia.


William Leo Hansberry, African History Notebook, (1981) Volume 2 noted that:

In Persia the old Negroid element seems indeed to have been sufficiently powerful to maintain the overlord of the land. For the Negritic strain is clearly evident in statuary depicting members of the royal family ruling in the second millenium B.C.

Hundreds of years later, when Xerxes invaded Greece, the type was well represented in the Persian army. In the remote mountain regions bordering on Persia and Baluchistan, there is to be found at the present time a Negroid element which bears a remarkable resemblance to the type represented on the ancient mounments. Hence the Negritic or Ethiopian type has proved persistent in this area, and in ancient times it seems to have constituted numerically and socially an important factor in the population" (p.52) .


.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Check out my video on the Asian Kushites:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-2xjWIIxK8


Enjoy














.
 

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Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
Bunch of religious Afro-Nuts reacting to what they see as heresy.

As I said, if Tut was R1b then the Amarna letters have more credence than what they have been given. You guys have not even dealt with that at all but instead just played the Negro.

Yo Mama that and you mamma this. Childish.

As for Tut's facial features, there are many people of Sri Lanka - not Tri Lanka; Negro, that have those features.

In fact, people of Sri Lanka in many ways look not much different than the Sudanese people.

---

Err. Sri Lankans look like Eastern Arabians. Go to the Eastern Provinces, the Gulf, and that's rather obvious. These populations nicely resemble their neighbors too, other South Asians.

No one, I mean, no one would mix up Sudanese populations with those peoples. I could understand right across the Red Sea in the Arabian Peninsula. That makes sense, and is actually the case.

You even see these Sudanese types amongst ELITE Saudi post-graduate students, within less-than-marginal-cities. There are some Sudanese who look "Arab" or "Indian-ish", and I'm at times considered that. The irony is that we're whitening up populations that'd be called niggers in most settings.

Saying that, these populations are represented within African diversity as well, and are more likely, in my opinion (i.e. observation), to appear amongst the Taureg populations. Due to limited population studies, especially of South/ West Asiatic populations, vs those designed to push the Black Caucasoids of Sweden. Besides that, do you have evidence suggesting that these collected traits cannot develop in Africa?
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 



Hatti
In the ancient literature the Proto Dravidians are called Kushites. Using boats the Kushites moved down ancient waterways many now dried up, to establish new towns in Asia and Europe after 3500 BC. The Kushites remained supreme around the world until 1400 1200 BC. During this period the Hua (Chinese) and Indo European (I E) speakers began to conquer the Kushites whose cities and economies were destroyed as a result of natural catastrophes which took place on the planet between 1400 1200 BC. Later, after 500 AD, Turkish speaking people began to settle parts of Central Asia. This is the reason behind the presence of the K s h element in many place names in Asia e.g., Kashgar, HinduKush, and Kosh. The HinduKush in Harappan times had lapis lazuli deposits.

Proto Saharans/Kushites expanded into Inner Asia from two primary points of dispersal : Iran and Anatolia. In Anatolia the Kushites were called Hattians and Kaska. In the 2nd millennium BC, the north and east of Anatolia was inhabited by non I E speakers.

Anatolia was divided into two lands “the land of Kanis” and the “land of Hatti”. The Hatti were related to the Kaska people who lived in the Pontic mountains.

Hattians lived in Anatolia. They worshipped Kasku and Kusuh. They were especially prominent in the Pontic mountains. Their sister nation in the Halys Basin were the Kaska tribes. The Kaska and Hattians share the same names for gods, along with personal and place names (1). The Kaska had a strong empire which was never defeated by the Hittites.

Singer (1981) has suggested that the Kaska, are remnants of the indigenous Hattian population which was forced northward by the Hittites. But at least as late as 1800 BC, Anatolia was basically settled by Hattians (2)

Anatolia was occupied by many Kushite groups,including the Kashkas and or Hatti. The Hatti , like the Dravidian speaking people were probably related . The Hatti were probably members of the Tehenu tribes.

The Tehenu was composed of various ethnic groups. One of the Tehenu tribes was identified by the Egyptians as the Hatiu or Haltiu.

During the Fifth Dynasty of Egypt (2563-2423), namely during the reign of Sahure there is mention of the Tehenu people. Sahure referred to the Tehenu leader “Hati Tehenu” .(3) These Hatiu, may correspond to the Hatti speaking people of Anatolia. The Hatti people often referred to themselves as Kashkas or Kaskas.

The Hatti controlled the city state of Kussara. Kussara was situated in southern Anatolia.

The earliest known ruler of Kussara was Pitkhanas. It was his son Anitta (c. 1790-1750 BC) who expanded the Kussara empire through much of Anatolia.

Many researchers get the Hittites (Nesa) mixed up with the original settlers of Anatolia called Hatti according to Steiner “.[T]his discrepancy is either totally neglected and more or less skillfully veiled, or it is explained by the assumption that the Hittites when conquering the country of Hatti adjusted themselves to the Hattians adopting their personal names and worshipping their gods, out of reverence for a higher culture” .(4)

Neshili, was probably spoken by the Hatti, not the IE Hittite. Yet, this language is classified as an IE langauge. Researchers maintain that the Hatti spoke 'Hattili' or Khattili “language of the Hatti”, and the IE Hittites spoke "Neshumnili"/ Neshili .(5) Researchers maintain that only 10% of the terms in Neshumnili is IE. This supports the view that Nesumnili may have been a lingua franca.

It is clear that the Anatolians spoke many languages including:Palaic, Hatti, Luwian and Hurrian, but the people as you know mainly wrote their writings in Neshumnili. The first people to use this system as the language of the royal chancery were Hatti Itamar Singer makes it clear that the Hittites adopted the language of the Hatti .(6) Steiner wrote that, " In the complex linguistic situation of Central Anatolia, in the 2nd Millennium B.C. with at least three, but probably more different languages being spoken within the same area there must have been the need for a language of communication or lingua franca [i.e., Neshumnili), whenever commercial transactions or political enterprises were undertaken on a larger scale" .(7)

• The Hatti language which provided the Hittites with many of the terms Indo-Aryan nationalists use to claim and Aryan origin for the Indus civilization is closely related to African languages including Egyptians. For example:
  Big, mighty, powerful protect, help upper
  Hattic ur $uh tufa
  Egyptian wr swh tp
  Malinke fara solo dya, tu ‘raising’
  Head stretch (out) prosper to pour
  Hattic tu put falfalat duq
  
  Egyptian tup pd
  Malinke tu ‘strike head’ pe, bemba fin’ya du
  Eye hand Place King, term of respect
  
  The Malinke-Bambara and Hatti language share other cognates and grammatical features. For example,in both languages the pronoun can be prefixed to nouns, e.g., Hatti le ‘his’, le fil ‘his house’; Malinke-Bambara a ‘his’, a falu ‘his father’s house’. Other Hatti and Malinke- Bambara cognates include:
  Hattic b’la ka -ka Kaati
  Malinke n’ye teke -ka ka, kuntigi ‘headman’
  
  Good hypothesis generation suggest that given the fact that the Malinke-Bambara and Hatti languages share cognate terms, Sumerian terms may also relate to Hatti terms since they were also Kushites. Below we compare a few Hatti, Sumerian and Malinke Bambara terms:
  
  Mother father lord,ruler build, to set up
  Hattic na-a ša tex
  Malinke na baba sa te
  Sumerian na ‘she’ aba tu ‘to create’
  To pour child,son up, to raise strength,powerful land
  Hatti dug pin,pinu tufa ur -ka
  Malinke du den dya, tu fara -ka
  Sumerian dub peš dul usu ki

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
White historians have really screwed this up, and many still use Hittite.

---

The term has an Abhramic origin. We, surely as hell, do not know much about this population. It is said that the peoples spoke an Indo-European, but we don't know how they look like.

I would assume their "European", just to give Eurocentrist a bare bone. However, Indo-European languages are widely spoken amongst Black peoples within South Asia. It would be great if remains of the Hittites can be found, and see cranial, skeletal and melanin characteristics studied. I wish someone on this forum could develop strength in either of the two areas, and be employed in such anti-Eurocentric operations.

It's also worth mentioning that most, especially Osirion, doesn't seem to realize that much traits we see in living populations are due to soft tissues. Those collected traits we see may as well be due to heightened sexual section. We just really don't know, and the Anatolians may have looked like Black "Indo-Arabians" (for the lack of a better term), but their cranio-facial indices ( being measured here, with one's naked eye) would most likely resemble East African populations.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
An important group in Anantolia in addition to the Hatti, were the Hurrians. The Hurrians enter Mesopotamia from the northeastern hilly area . They introduced horse-drawn war chariots to Mesopotamia .

Hurrians penetrate Mesopotamia and Syria-Palestine between 1700-1500 BC. The major Hurrian Kingdom was Mitanni, which was founded by Sudarna I (c.1550), was established at Washukanni on the Khabur River. The Hurrian capital was Urkesh, one of its earliest kings was called Tupkish.

Linguistic and historical evidence support the view that Dravidians influenced Mittanni and Lycia. (Winters 1989a) Alain Anselin is sure that Dravidian speaking peoples once inhabited the Aegean. For example Anselin (1982, pp.111-114) has discussed many Dravidian place names found in the Aegean Sea area.

Two major groups in ancient Anatolia were the Hurrians and Lycians. Although the Hurrians are considered to be Indo-European speakers, some Hurrians probably spoke a Dravidian language.

The Hurrians lived in Mittanni. Mittanni was situated on the great bend of the Upper Euphrates river. Hurrian was spoken in eastern Anatolia and North Syria.

Most of what we know about Hurrian comes from the Tel al-Armarna letters. These letters were written to the Egyptian pharaoh. These letters are important because they were written in a language different from diplomatic Babylonian.

The letters written in the unknown language were numbered 22 and 25. In 1909 Bork, in Mitteilungen der Vorderasiatische Gesellschaft, wrote a translation of the letters.

In 1930, G.W. Brown proposed that the words in letters 22 and 25 were Dravidian especially Tamil. Brown (1930), has shown that the vowels and consonants of Hurrian and Dravidian are analogous. In support of this theory Brown (1930) noted the following similarities between Dravidian and Hurrian: 1) presence of a fullness of forms employed by both languages; 2) presence of active and passive verbal forms are not distinguished; 3) presence of verbal forms that are formed by particles; 4) presence of true relative pronouns is not found in these languages; 5) both languages employ negative verbal forms; 6) identical use of -m, as nominative; 7) similar pronouns; and 8) similar ending formations:

• Dravidian Hurrian
  a a
  -kku -ikka
  imbu impu
  
  There are analogous Dravidian and Hurrian terms:
  
  English Hurrian Dravidian
  mountain paba parampu
  lady,woman aallay ali
  King Sarr,zarr Ca, cira
  god en en
  give tan tara
  to rule irn ire
  father attai attan
  wife,woman asti atti

• Hurrian Sanskrit
  Mi-it-va Mitra
  Aru-na Varuna
  In-da-ra Indra
  Na-sa-at-tiya Nasatya
  
  There are other Hurrian and Sanskrit terms that appear to show a relationship:
  
  English Hurrian Sanskrit Tamil
  One aika eka okka ‘together’
  Three tera tri
  Five panza panca añcu
  Seven satta sapta
  Nine na nava onpatu
  
  Other Hurrian terms relate to Indo-Aryan:
  
  English Hurrian I-A Tamil
  Brown babru babhru pukar
  Grey parita palita paraitu ‘old’
  Reddish pinkara pingala puuval
  
  English Mitanni
  
  Vedic Tamil
  Warrior marya marya makan, maravan

• Anthropological analysis of the osteological material from an ancient tomb (Early Bronze Age) from the middle Euphrates valley, Terqa (Syria)
  International Journal of Osteoarchaeology
  Early View
  J. Tomczyk, K. J drychowska-Da ska, T. P oszaj, H. W. Witas

In this article they discuss a skeleton of a Negro or Mongoloid person. They found that the skeleton carried hg K, Skeleton dates back to 2600 BC.

.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Evidently very little thought was given to this "proposal"
before it was posted. But then, considering the source, ... .

1. No UEP from Tut means no known haplogroup period.

2. Tut's common 16 STR haplotype is unpublished. Only
unsubstantiated guesswork is currently available.

3. The son of the Hittite king was assasinated en route to
Egypt. There was no infusion of Hittite maless into Ae's
royalty. It was AE royal males who concubined Hittites.

4. Even had the marriage been consumated there's no
way Tut's widow could effect the dead man's Y chromosome.

5. R1b1a is older than R1b1b (the non-African variety).
Without jumping through hoops, R1b in AE would be the
homegrown African variety rather than some imported
EurAsian variety.

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
If King Tut was R1b then I would speculate that it was due to Hittites.

From the Amarna letters we have Ankhesenamon who apparently wrote a letter to Suppilulumia informing him that she had no sons of her own and asked him to send to her one of his sons whom she would marry and make Pharaoh. Now why would an Egyptian want to have a Hittite as a Pharaoh? Perhaps there's more to this than we had previously known.

Lets keep in mind that this is a period by which alliances were formed by such marriages. So if King Tut did have R1b the question would be was it due to an ancient alliance between Asiatics and Africans?

---

 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
The Sumerians and Akkadians

I wish we could separate the history of the Middle East from race, but it is impossible to do so because of the desire of Eurocentrists to make Semitic speakers members of the “white” race.

The controversy surrounding the Kushite/African/Black origins of the Elamites, Sumerians, Akkadians and “Assyrians” is simple and yet complicated. It involves both the racism exhibited toward the African slaves in the Western Hemisphere and Africans generally which led to the idea that Africans had no history ; and the need of Julius Oppert to make Semites white, to accommodate the “white” ancestry of European Jews.

To understand this dichotomy we have to look at the history of scholarship surrounding the rise of Sumero-Akkadian studies. The study of the Sumerians, Akkadians. Assyrians and Elamites began with the decipherment of the cuneiform script by Henry Rawlinson. Henry Rawlinson had spent most of his career in the Orient. This appears to have gave him an open mind in regards to history. He recognized the Ancient Model of History, the idea that civilization was founded by the Kushite or Hamitic people of the Bible.

As result, Rawlinson was surprised during his research to discover that the founders of the Mesopotamian civilization were of Kushite origin. He made it clear that the Semitic speakers of Akkad and the non-Semitic speakers of Sumer were both Black or Negro people who called themselves sag-gig-ga “Black Heads”. In Rawlinson’s day the Sumerian people were recognized as Akkadian or Chaldean, while the Semitic speaking blacks were called Assyrians.

Rawlinson identified these Akkadians as Turanian or Scythic people. But he made it clear that these ancient Scythic or Turanian speaking people were Kushites or Blacks.

A major supporter of Rawlinson was Edward Hincks. Hincks continued Rawlinson’s work and identified the ancient group as Chaldeans, and also called them Turanian speakers. Hincks, though, never dicussed their ethnic origin.

A late comer to the study of the Sumerians and the Akkadians was Julius Oppert. Oppert was a German born of Jewish parents. He made it clear that the Chaldean and Akkadian people spoke different languages. He noted that the original founders of Mesopotamia civilization called themselves Ki-en-gi “land of the true lords”. It was the Semitic speakers who called themselves Akkadians.

Assyrians called the Ki-en-gi people Sumiritu “the sacred language”. Oppert popularized the Assyrian name Sumer, for the original founders of the civilization. Thus we have today the Akkadians and Sumerians of ancient Mesopotamia.

Oppert began to popularize the idea that the Sumerians were related to the contemporary Altaic and Turanian speaking people, e.g., Turks and Magyar (Hungarian) speaking people. He made it clear that the Akkadians were Semites like himself . To support this idea Oppert pointed out that typological features between Sumerian and Altaic languages existed. This feature was agglutination.

The problem with identifying the Sumerians as descendants from contemporary Turanian speakers resulted from the fact that Sumerian and the Turkish languages are not genetically related. As a result Oppert began to criticize the work of Hincks (who was dead at the time) in relation to the identification of the Sumerian people as Turanian following the research of Rawlinson.

It is strange to some observers that Oppert,never criticized Rawlinson who had proposed the Turanian origin of the Ki-en-gi (Sumerians). But this was not strange at all. Oppert did not attack Rawlinson who was still alive at the time because he knew that Rawlinson said the Sumerians were the original Scythic and Turanian people he called Kushites. Moreover, Rawlinson made it clear that both the Akkadians and Sumerians were Blacks. For Oppert to have debated this issue with Rawlinson, who deciphered the cuneiform script, would have meant that he would have had to accept the fact that Semites were Black. There was no way Oppert would have wanted to acknowledge his African heritage, given the Anti-Semitism experienced by Jews living in Europe.

Although Oppert successfully hid the recognition that the Akkadians and the Sumerians both refered to themselves as sag-gig-ga “black heads”, some researchers were unable to follow the status quo and ignore this reality. For example, Francois Lenormant, made it clear, following the research of Rawlinson, that the Elamite and Sumerians spoke genetically related languages. This idea was hard to reconcile with the depiction of people on the monuments of Iran, especially the Behistun monument, which depicted Negroes (with curly hair and beards) representing the Assyrians, Jews and Elamites who ruled the area.

As a result, Oppert began the myth that the Sumerian languages was isolated from other languages spoken in the world evethough it shared typological features with the Altaic languages. Oppert taught Akkadian-Sumerian in many of the leading Universities in France and Germany. Many of his students soon began to dominate the Academe, or held chairs in Sumerian and Akkadian studies these researchers continued to perpetuate the myth that the Elamite and Sumerian languages were not related.

There was no way to keep from researchers who read the original Sumerian, Akkadian and Assyrian text that these people recognized that they were ethnically Blacks. This fact was made clear by Albert Terrien de LaCouperie. Born in France, de LaCouperie was a well known linguist and China expert. Although native of France most of his writings are in English. In the journal he published called the Babylonian and Oriental Record, he outlined many aspects of ancient history. In these pages he made it clear that the Sumerians, Akkadians and even the Assyrians who called themselves şalmat kakkadi ‘black headed people”, were all Blacks of Kushite origin.

Eventhough de LaCouperie taught at the University of London, the prestige of Oppert, and the fact that the main centers for Sumero-Akkadian studies in France and Germany were founded by Oppert and or his students led to researchers ignoring the evidence that the Sumerians , Akkadians and Assyrians were Black.

In summary, the cuneiform evidence makes it clear that the Sumerians, Akkadians and Assyrians recognized themselves as Negroes: “black heads”. This fact was supported by the statues of Gudea, the Akkadians and Assyrians. Plus the Behistun monument made it clear that the Elamites were also Blacks.

The textual evidence also makes it clear that Oppert began the discussion of a typological relationship between Sumerian and Turkic languages. He also manufactured the idea that the Semites of Mesopotamia and Iran, the Assyrians and Akkadians were “whites”, like himself. Due to this brain washing, and whitening out of Blacks in history, many people today can look at depictions of Assyrians, Achamenians, and Akkadians and fail to see the Negro origin of these people.



Gutian/Sumerian


To make the Sumerians “white” textbooks print pictures of artifacts dating to the Gutian rule of Lagash, to pass them off as the true originators of Sumerian civilization. No Gutian rulers of Lagash are recognized in the Sumerian King List.

.
 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Bob_01 - I cannot translate ancient script, so instead, I study how ancient people depicted THEMSELVES!

This statue leaves no doubt of their African origins.





.
And this one leaves no doubt of their cultural affinity with Mesopotamia.





.

But then you look at this one - they also worship the Canaanite God Baal.

Anatolia was a very varied place!



 

---

Posted by homeylu (Member # 4430) on :
 
Impressive research!

OT: Is this the same Clyde Winters that conducted the research on the Nubian artifacts at the Oriental Institute? I remember I would use your findings to debate with people several years ago!


How to stop the "whitewash of Ancient Egypt" archives:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/000614-2.html

I'm impressed that you are a member of this site, this is what we need here, more academia, seriously!
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by homeylu:
Impressive research!

OT: Is this the same Clyde Winters that conducted the research on the Nubian artifacts at the Oriental Institute? I remember I would use your findings to debate with people several years ago!


How to stop the "whitewash of Ancient Egypt" archives:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/000614-2.html

I'm impressed that you are a member of this site, this is what we need here, more academia, seriously!

---

Thanks for your support. You can find out more about these Black nations of Asia in my book:



You can order it here.
 

---

Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Evidently very little thought was given to this "proposal"
before it was posted. But then, considering the source, ... .

1. No UEP from Tut means no known haplogroup period.

2. Tut's common 16 STR haplotype is unpublished. Only
unsubstantiated guesswork is currently available.

3. The son of the Hittite king was assasinated en route to
Egypt. There was no infusion of Hittite maless into Ae's
royalty. It was AE royal males who concubined Hittites.

4. Even had the marriage been consumated there's no
way Tut's widow could effect the dead man's Y chromosome.

5. R1b1a is older than R1b1b (the non-African variety).
Without jumping through hoops, R1b in AE would be the
homegrown African variety rather than some imported
EurAsian variety.

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
If King Tut was R1b then I would speculate that it was due to Hittites.

From the Amarna letters we have Ankhesenamon who apparently wrote a letter to Suppilulumia informing him that she had no sons of her own and asked him to send to her one of his sons whom she would marry and make Pharaoh. Now why would an Egyptian want to have a Hittite as a Pharaoh? Perhaps there's more to this than we had previously known.

Lets keep in mind that this is a period by which alliances were formed by such marriages. So if King Tut did have R1b the question would be was it due to an ancient alliance between Asiatics and Africans?

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Thanks for your support. You can find out more about these Black nations of Asia in my book:

You can order it here.

---

YW, Glad to show my support, though I have no interest in Black nations outside of Africa.

However, I will definitely order a few of these as it correlates with my current line of work. I will also request that the title be added to our 'reference guides' for the entire school district.

I have the fortune of being on the Social Studies curriculum team.
 

---

Posted by Recovering Afro-holic (Member # 17311) on :
 
Is there no god damn oversight at your school district?!?!?! This is why Black students are behind their non-black counterparts. What school district do you teach in sir? I would like to write the superintendent.

quote:

---

Originally posted by homeylu:
I will also request that the title be added to our 'reference guides' for the entire school district.

I have the fortune of being on the Social Studies curriculum team.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
Afro-idiot - I thought you said that you were Black. Therefore you should be happy to see accurate history taught in schools, instead of the lies and distortions taught by White people. I mean the data is already there and conclusive; Whites have been lying, why do you have a problem with it?

---

 

---

Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
 
Jari, Jesus Christ could come down here in person and try to educate you on AE and you would still spin. You guys are dine...finished. Not that you ever had a position to start with.
Willie Nelson wrote a song 'Turn out the lights, the party is over.'
 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Afro-idiot - I have to admit, even though I know with a certainty that you are just another asshole White troll trying to front as a Negro; when you say things like that, which is so close to the Negros concept of Black history - Slavery. I am honestly given pause.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
You are right. It is all over. Tuts father was an Irish man.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hammer:
Jari, Jesus Christ could come down here in person and try to educate you on AE and you would still spin. You guys are dine...finished. Not that you ever had a position to start with.
Willie Nelson wrote a song 'Turn out the lights, the party is over.'

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
Clyde - I can't buy the scenario that all Anatolian's were Kushite - later in the south, perhaps.

The problem is that your scenario completely discounts the Grimaldi faction.

The original Black southern European and Mediterranean civilizations do not show great affinity with Egypt or Mesopotamia. (Even though the building of Mycenae was supposedly a joint Cretan/Egyptian enterprise). Neither do the original Eastern European civilizations.

And how do you explain Anatolia having the trappings of a beginning civilization BEFORE Egypt or Sumer?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Recovering Afro-holic:
Is there no god damn oversight at your school district?!?!?! This is why Black students are behind their non-black counterparts. What school district do you teach in sir? I would like to write the superintendent.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
You are right. It is all over. Tuts father was an Irish man.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hammer:
Jari, Jesus Christ could come down here in person and try to educate you on AE and you would still spin. You guys are dine...finished. Not that you ever had a position to start with.
Willie Nelson wrote a song 'Turn out the lights, the party is over.'

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by homeylu:

But I would review the contents myself, as we

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by homeylu:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Recovering Afro-holic:
Is there no god damn oversight at your school district?!?!?! This is why Black students are behind their non-black counterparts. What school district do you teach in sir? I would like to write the superintendent.

---

Yes, there is oversight, we have a school board just like all others, but my district is 97% Minority, so we are effectively the majority. The superintendent is Black and so are all the board members, not that it makes a difference, as we don't all 'agree' on everything simply because we share a common 'race'.

But I would review the contents myself, as we have to present it in such a fashion to show how others will benefit from it, for it to be added to our district curriculum.

---

You may want to check out my book for some ideas



You can order it here .

It is clear this Euronut knows nothing about making additions to the school curriculum.


.
 

---

Posted by Recovering Afro-holic (Member # 17311) on :
 
Yea and I'm sure stormfront would agree w/you. They'd be just as glad to add their aryan historical view to the curriculum of predominantly white school districts; white Egypt revisited! You the bomb Clyde Winters!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
It is clear this Euronut knows nothing about making additions to the school curriculum.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Recovering Afro-holic:
Yea and I'm sure stormfront would agree w/you. They'd be just as glad to add their aryan historical view to the curriculum of predominantly white school districts; white Egypt revisited! You the bomb Clyde Winters!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
It is clear this Euronut knows nothing about making additions to the school curriculum.

---

---

quote:

---

Ancient Egypt was the most impressive of the early civilizations. The annual overflowing of the River Nile stimulated along its banks a sedentary way of life noteworthy in at least three respects. First, no early civilization lasted longer than ancient Egypt's five thousand years. Second, no other early civilization is associated with so many achievements (such as writing; the study of astronomy, geometry and geography; a 365-day calendar; irrigation systems; architecture; sculpture; beds and chairs; and wigs). Third, Egypt marked the greatest confluence of early cultures. Situated at the crossroads between Africa, Asia, and Europe, Egyptians had contact with the Mesopotamians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Kushites (Nubians), Greeks, and Romans. There is even evidence to suggest that the ancient Greek civilization, considered the primary basis for European civilization, was influenced considerably by the ancient Egyptians, especially in religion and art.
Links between some Africans south of the Sahara and the ancient Egyptians have been identified. The legends of some ethnic groups (for example, Dogon, Yoruba, Bakuba, and Watutsi) speak of a migration from the general direction of the Nile Valley. Also, objects found in other parts of Africa resemble Egyptian ones and are therefore viewed as having originated in Egypt (headrests, musical instruments, ostrich fans). Further, there are words common to the Egyptian language and the languages of such African groups as the Yoruba and Wolof. Yoruba and Wolof words are among those West African words that have been found among the black residents of' the Gullah Islands (Sea Islands) off the coasts of Georgia and South Carolina.

This quote is taken from the : The New Jersey African American History Curriculum Guide: Grades 9 to 12


http://www.njstatelib.org/NJ_Information/Digital_Collections/AAHCG/unit1.html

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

4. Even had the marriage been consumated there's no
way Tut's widow could effect the dead man's Y chromosome.

5. R1b1a is older than R1b1b (the non-African variety).
Without jumping through hoops, R1b in AE would be the
homegrown African variety rather than some imported
EurAsian variety.


[/qb]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
You are right. It is all over. Tuts father was an Irish man.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hammer:
Jari, Jesus Christ could come down here in person and try to educate you on AE and you would still spin. You guys are dine...finished. Not that you ever had a position to start with.
Willie Nelson wrote a song 'Turn out the lights, the party is over.'

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
You are right. It is all over. Tuts father was an Irish man.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hammer:
Jari, Jesus Christ could come down here in person and try to educate you on AE and you would still spin. You guys are dine...finished. Not that you ever had a position to start with.
Willie Nelson wrote a song 'Turn out the lights, the party is over.'

---

---

Unless you are religious about this, the possibility of a Celtic ancestor in Tut's male lineage is something to consider. Especially with the evidence of red hair that seems to keep showing up.

Is Tut related to Ramses?

---

Lord Jesus help this boy
 

---

Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
^Red hair is unique to Celts, Whites, or somebody?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
As you can see although Stormfront's Aryan history may be considered racist, the study of Egypt as an African civilization is a part of many state and local school district's social studies curriculum.

.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

4. Even had the marriage been consumated there's no
way Tut's widow could effect the dead man's Y chromosome.

5. R1b1a is older than R1b1b (the non-African variety).
Without jumping through hoops, R1b in AE would be the
homegrown African variety rather than some imported
EurAsian variety.

---

[/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
^Red hair is unique to Celts, Whites, or somebody?

---

I didn't say it was exclusive to Celts I simply said that it is evidence that increases the possibility.

It is my understanding that some of the Sea People actually became Egyptian mercenaries. Even some of them becoming generals in the Egyptian armies.

---

quote:

---

Since the Egyptian royals were Europeans to start with red hair would not have been an unusual feature though not common.

---

Yes and the Greeks carried Benin Hbs and so they were Africans..plus they remembered their African heritage..


Throughout the Greek legends, an Africoid or dark-skinned people are associated with Danaus and the Danaids. (The poet) Aeschylus’s, “Suppliant Maidens”, describes the Danides as “Black and smitten by the “sun”. (In the poem) when the Danaids claim an ethnic kinship to Epaphos, son of Zeus, the Argive king Pelops, rebukes them:

Nay, strangers, what ye tell is past belief
For me to hear, that ye from Argos spring
For ye to Libyan women are most like,
And no wise to our native maidens here.””
http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/black-african-origins-of-the-ancient-greeks-dr-anu-mauro/
 

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Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
 
The Greks had zero african componet. A marker does not make them part african and even the marker is in only few. Greece had vastly more influence on africa than the other way around.
 

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Posted by Doctoris Scientia (Member # 17454) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hammer:
The Greks had zero african componet. A marker does not make them part african and even the marker is in only few. Greece had vastly more influence on africa than the other way around.

---

That's pathetic...

What influence, Ancient Greece and Southeast/Southern Europe in general were greatly influenced by Africa and Southwest Asia.. in fact, historically Greece was associated with the East, i.e. what is now associated with the geopolitical term "Middle East".

You are no different from those loons on Stormfront, you back up views that hold no basis in order to fulfill your own sick theories.

Egypt was African, and that fact is supported by science.

There is no real scientist who claims a European origin for AE, there are a few who still hold on to a Near Eastern origin.. but European.

Several posters have already schooled you on the hair color of the mummies, so there's no point to argue.

Greece and Rome where both influenced by Africa, and there were many Africans living there during Classical periods... watch Spartacus to find out.
 

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Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
 
Classical Greek scholars have made a complete joke out of your position.

You cannot post one who agrees with you. You should be locked up to keep you from hurting yourself.

The Greeks influenced africa , not the other way around. Every educated person knows that. Besides, the Egyptians were not black africans anyway. No group of blacks are capable of building a civilization of that magnitude.
 

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Posted by Nay-Sayer (Member # 10566) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hammer:
The Greks had zero african componet. A marker does not make them part african and even the marker is in only few. Greece had vastly more influence on africa than the other way around.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hammer:
Spend a few weeks thinking about it nay-Sayer and you might figure it out. There is a reason Greek scholars do not teach that Greece was an african influenced civilization BUT they do teach that Africa was heavily influenced by Greece.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hammer:
Actually Greek Gods had nothing to do with Egyptian religion...nada. Some greeks did study in Egypt in the late Greek period but keep in mind that Alexandria was a Greek city, not an Egyptian city and was not even built until 300 BC.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hammer:
Nay Sayer, This is what happens to your brain when you pay too much attention to these afronuts. The following is an explanation to your question from Lefkowitz. He point of view is in line with other Greek scholars you will find. Egypt and Greece had little to do with each other before Alexander. It was Greek thought and advancement that influenced Egypt, not the other way around.

---

quote:

---

Well, Martin Bernal has done fine work. There's really nothing the matter with it. His grandfather was Alan Gardner, a famous and important Egyptologist. He went into other things, but has always been, at heart, an Egyptologist. He knows his Egyptian materials very, very well. And as he started looking at these materials, he became interested in the history of literature dealing with Greek-Egyptian connection. He saw that, as you moved into the 19th century, histories became increasingly distant from what the Greeks themselves said about their Egyptian connections. People imagined that Greece had this wonderful sort of Enlightenment before the Enlightenment. In many senses this wasn't wrong; the Greeks really had tremendous breakthroughs in thinking. But they didn't come up with all of this in isolation. We can't ignore, for instance, Euclid saying that he stayed in Egypt and, after he returned, wrote the Geometry.

A whole bunch of people in the Classics departments have made their careers - and they deeply feel this - the wonder of the Ancient Greeks. They get great joy and happiness from doing this. If you make any connection between Africa and what the Greeks were doing, our Western upbringing can come back to surface in a way people don't realize is taking place.

They don't realize it because they feel they have eliminated racism from their thinking. They're sure that Africans, given different circumstances, would have been just as advanced as everyone else. They don't realize that, actually, Africans were just as advanced. They have, maybe, more continent to move into; they have less dense population and only some areas move into urbanization. Societies develop more oral literature, so they don't have the written documentation—people choose alternative modes to develop their history. And then there's the thought of Egypt was this place that got great but then just stopped, stagnated. And that's not a correct reading of history either. The New Kingdom was doing things that were far different from the Old and Middle periods. Now, beyond the New Kingdom, nobody pays much attention. I want to fix up Civilizations of Africa to go into 7th century Egypt. There are important things, new things, happening there.

Anyway: the idea of all this Egyptian influence on Greece is threatening to people who fear that it challenges Greek uniqueness and originality. I don't think it does at all. After all, human societies invent new patterns through encounter with other societies. What Greeks achieved is all the richer if we understand that they were grappling with ideas from Egypt, Mesopotamia, and elsewhere.

And then you have a very different reaction from Afrocentrists. Some Afrocentrists are really out there, far beyond left field. Martin and I don't mind that they use our work, as long as they are grounded in the evidence. But Classicists say, well, Bernal is just an Afrocentrist. And he isn't. He's someone who's got real evidence, and who's got a valid critique of European scholarly understanding of Greece over the last century and a half or so. Of course, some of the people he criticizes are among the founding fathers of Classics.

But, yeah, it does look like the Middle Kingdom did have a big impact on the Mediterranean. Maybe there wasn't a circum-Aegean conquest from Egypt, but there was a cultural impact that was later remembered. I think basically Martin has really enriched things.

Now, as for the linguistic materials: some Greek words are going to turn out to be early borrowings. I want to get together with Martin on this issue. There are definitely word borrowings from Egypt into Greece, and there's certainly a lot vocabulary that comes from ancient Semitic languages.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Hammer:
Since the Egyptian royals were Europeans to start with red hair would not have been an unusual feature though not common.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
^ Hittite and Celts? When did I say that? The Sea People is what I was referring to. The Sea People were a group of people from various places. Now keep in mind that the Greeks enslaved NW Europeans. Some of these slaves gained their freedom and would be inclined to join pirating groups. Pirates in general came from all over. The Celtic world of the past was a lot larger and spanned from Ireland to parts of Germany. Hence the possibility that a pirate from the Sea People confederation entered into military service for the Egyptians, became distinguished for valor, ended up a general and had an affair with an Egyptian royal lady. The result - Red hair in some Egyptians.

FYI: My neice has pure red wavy hair. I have Celtic ancestry some 5 generations back.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hammer:
Nay-Sayer, Nonsense, Ehret is not a classical scholar and the subject we are talking about is in THEIR field, not his. If the book has been discredited then by whom? You cannot find a single classical scholar who agrees with you, not one, anywhere. You are too literate to buy into this garbble.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hammer:
There was no blackness in Greece. When you say things like that you play into the sterotypes that black people cannot think.

---

But who cares about Greece?

To me this is Greek - pretty darn White:



Where as this is Egypt:



Pretty darn Black.
 

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Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
 



Just Black. Nothing European about Egypt except for a few individuals.
 

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Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
 

 

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Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
 
^ Notice how Miss Egypt features look identical to those of the bust above?

Not European.
 

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Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
 
The DNA tests say otherwise. R1b
 

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Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
 
Brada, What you call rednecks are the majority of the American population and literally run the country. The DNA tests on Tut wiped out your position.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hammer:
The Greks had zero african componet. A marker does not make them part african and even the marker is in only few. Greece had vastly more influence on africa than the other way around.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hammer:
Classical Greek scholars have made a complete joke out of your position.

You cannot post one who agrees with you. You should be locked up to keep you from hurting yourself.

The Greeks influenced africa , not the other way around. Every educated person knows that. Besides, the Egyptians were not black africans anyway. No group of blacks are capable of building a civilization of that magnitude.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hammer:
Nay Sayer, This is what happens to your brain when you pay too much attention to these afronuts. The following is an explanation to your question from Lefkowitz. He point of view is in line with other Greek scholars you will find. Egypt and Greece had little to do with each other before Alexander. It was Greek thought and advancement that influenced Egypt, not the other way around.

Did ancient Greek religion and culture derive from Egypt?

"The idea that Greek religion and philosophy has Egyptian origins derives, at least in part, from the writings of ancient Greek historians. In the fifth century BC Herodotus was told by Egyptian priests that the Greeks owed many aspects of their culture to the older and vastly impressive civilization of the Egyptians. Egyptian priests told Diodorus some of the same stories four centuries later. The church fathers in the second and third centuries AD also were eager to emphasize the dependency of Greece on the earlier cultures of the Egyptians and the Hebrews. They were eager to establish direct links between their civilization and that of Egypt because Egypt was a vastly older culture, with elaborate religious customs and impressive monuments. But despite their enthusiasm for Egypt and its material culture (an enthusiasm that was later revived in eighteenth and nineteenth-century Europe), they failed to understand Egyptian religion and the purpose of many Egyptian customs.

Classical scholars tend to be skeptical about the claims of the Greek historians because much of what these writers say does not conform to the facts as they are now known from the modern scholarship on ancient Egypt. For centuries Europeans had believed that the ancient historians knew that certain Greek religious customs and philosophical interests derived from Egypt. But two major discoveries changed that view. The first concerned a group of ancient philosophical treatises attributed to Hermes Trismegistus; these had throughout the Middle Ages and into the Renaissance been thought of as Egyptian and early. But in 1614 the French scholar Isaac Casaubon demonstrated that the treatises were actually late and basically Greek. The second discovery was the decipherment of hieroglyphics, the official system of Egyptian writing, completed by 1836. Before decipherment, scholars had been compelled to rely on Greek sources for their understanding of Egyptian history and civilization. Once they were able to read real Egyptian texts, and could disregard the fanciful interpretations of hieroglyphics that had been circulating since late antiquity, it became clear to them that the relation of Egyptian to Greek culture was less close than they had imagined. Egyptian belonged to the Afroasiatic language family, while Greek was an Indo-European language, akin to Sanskrit and European languages like Latin.

On the basis of these new discoveries, European scholars realized that they could no longer take at face value what Herodotus, Diodorus, and the Church fathers had to say about Greece's debt to Egypt. Once it was possible to read Egyptian religious documents, and to see how the Egyptians themselves described their gods and told their myths, scholars could see that the ancient Greeks' accounts of Egyptian religion were superficial, and even misleading. Apparently Greek writers, despite their great admiration for Egypt, looked at Egyptian civilization through cultural blinkers that kept them from understanding any practices or customs that were significantly different from their own. The result was a portrait of Egypt that was both astigmatic and deeply Hellenized. Greek writers operated under other handicaps as well. They did not have access to records; there was no defined system of chronology. They could not read Egyptian inscriptions or question a variety of witnesses because they did not know the language. Hence they were compelled to exaggerate the importance of such resemblances as they could see or find.

Did the theory of the transmigration of souls come from Egypt?

Because he tended to rely on such analogies as he could find, Herodotus inevitably made some false conjectures. Herodotus thought that Pythagoras learned about the transmigration of souls from Egypt, when in fact the Egyptians did not believe in the transmigration of souls, as their careful and elaborate burial procedures clearly indicate. Herodotus tells us that he wrote down what the Egyptians told him; but when they spoke, what did he hear? Since he did not know Egyptian, his informants could have been Greeks living in the Greek colony of Naucratis in the Nile Delta, or Egyptians who knew some Greek. How well-informed were his informants? On the question of origins, at least, it seems that neither group had any more than a superficial understanding of the other's culture. Perhaps someone explained to him about the Egyptian "modes of existence," in which a human being could manifest itself both materially, or immaterially, as ka or ba or a name, and that death was not an end, but a threshold leading to a new form of life. Belief in these varied modes of existence required that bodies be preserved after death, hence the Egyptian practice of mummification. Greeks, on the other hand, believed that the soul was separated from the body at death, and disposed of bodies either by burial or cremation. In any case, there is no reason to assume that Pythagoras or other Greeks who believed in transmigration, like the Orphics and/or the philosopher-poet Empedocles, got their ideas from anyone else: notions of transmigration have developed independently in other parts of the world.

Did Plato Study in Egypt?

Plato never says in any of his writings that he went to Egypt, and there is no reference to such a visit in the semi-biographical Seventh Epistle. But in his dialogues he refers to some Egyptian myths and customs. Plato, of course, was not a historian, and the rather superficial knowledge of Egypt displayed in his dialogues, along with vague chronology, is more characteristic of historical fiction than of history. In fact, anecdotes about his visit to Egypt only turn up in writers of the later Hellenistic period. What better way to explain his several references to Egypt than to assume that the author had some first-hand knowledge of the customs he describes? For authors dating from the fourth century and earlier, ancient biographers were compelled to use as their principal source material the author's own works. Later biographers add details to the ...

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Posted by Kalonji (Member # 17303) on :
 
Why even bother to have a serious discussion with Hammer? If you have to do, just toy with him, just like he is obviously doing with all of you.

How Hammers mind works:

1.E3b in Greeks = non existent despite various studies that reveal it.

Yet (When it is convenient for his standpoint)

2.R1b is not only existent in Tut according to him, but representative for all of Egypt despite it being little more than a rumor.


1.Proof for E3b in Greeks requires multiple greek historians (Wtf?!!) for it to be true, and anthropologists (that historians themselves take knowledge from) are not qualified.

yet (When it is convenient for his standpoint)

2.Rumors for R1b in Tut requires a simple, non-substatiated rumor started by people on a random forums to be true.

^Can't you see his is toying with you?
Stop acting like you're talking to a normal person that can actually absorb logic.
 

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Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
 
R1b is not a rumor, you are in denial ust as I predicted you would be. Logic? You guys are a laughing stock everywhere.
1. Only 23% of Greeks have the marker
2. 20 people could spread that marker to 23% of the greek population.

I know you guys have math issues, we see the test scores but this is not rocket science. Again goofey...having the marker does not mean anything. It does not make them black and does not mean they were ever black.
 

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Posted by Kalonji (Member # 17303) on :
 
^Sure, Hammer...
sure..

Goog luck toying with other people, you sure aint baiting me.
Succes
 

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Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
 
It is a matter of logic my friend. 1 +1 is 2.
This is why you people bring up the rear in every catagory of human activity. In your defense I actually think you believe this goofey ideology.
 

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Posted by Nay-Sayer (Member # 10566) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hammer:
Nay Sayer, this is why people think you guys are nuts. Ehert is not a classical scholar...now read very slowly...the question is WHAT DID THE GREEKS SAY AND NOT SAY AND WAS IT ACCURATE? Now do we understand the question? that is a question smack in the field of classical scholars...period.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hammer:
The DNA tests say otherwise. R1b

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Source?
 

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Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Early Greek Art:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_in_ancient_Greece


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ac.charioteer.jpg
 

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Posted by Nay-Sayer (Member # 10566) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hammer:

1. Only 23% of Greeks have the marker

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Early Greek Art:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_in_ancient_Greece

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hammer:
R1b is not a rumor, you are in denial ust as I predicted you would be. Logic? You guys are a laughing stock everywhere.
1. Only 23% of Greeks have the marker
2. 20 people could spread that marker to 23% of the greek population.

I know you guys have math issues, we see the test scores but this is not rocket science. Again goofey...having the marker does not mean anything. It does not make them black and does not mean they were ever black.

---

They were ever Black? Really? Are you that concerned about such things? When I hear people talking in absolutes I know they are being religious. So, you are part of some sort of Eurocentric cult like alot of the AAs here who are part of some Afrocentric cult. All a bunch of religious nuts.

Let me show you why you are a Euronut just like a lot of the Afronuts here.


Your Premise - Egyptian royals are European because R1b has been found in King Tut.

Surmation: A haplogroup found in an individual indicates origin of the individuals family and therefore everyone else in that class of people ,hence all royalty in Egypt during the dynastic age, are R1b and necessarily European.

It should then follow that if an African haplogroup is found in Greece amongst royalty then Greek royalty is of African origin.

Fact, E3b has been found in Greek royalty therefore you should conclude that Greek royalty was of African origin. This based on your great logic about King Tut.

However, you claim that Greeks are in no way of African origin. The Black African Halpogroup of Sub-Saharan origin means nothing.

Conclusion: religious bias.

You are part of a racialist cult that blinds you to scientific methods where all evidence that goes against your faith is ignored and all evidence supporting your faith is over exaggerated.

You are no different than the Afro-Nuts. Unwilling to even speculate about evidence that doesn't fit your religious beliefs.

You like many others that post here are a loser.

At least I am from North Africa where as most of you guys are just a bunch of wannabe folks.
 

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Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
 
AND I AM R1B and I am STILL VERY MUCH BLACK!!!

idiot.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

Move it up.
 

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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
Clyde's on that move it up stuff again

Clyde, question: what happened to the Hattians?
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
Clyde's on that move it up stuff again

Clyde, question: what happened to the Hattians?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
AND I AM R1B and I am STILL VERY MUCH BLACK!!!

idiot.

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quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:

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Wow - Miss Egypt looks very Negroid . I am surprised the United Turko Republicans even chose her. Just like a sistah with a weave.
 

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Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
 
^ Negroid? Why did you use this offensive terminology?
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:

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Wow - Miss Egypt looks very Negroid . I am surprised the United Turko Republicans even chose her. Just like a sistah with a weave.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:
^ No I have a Scottish ancestor from missionaries in Africa ( 4 generations back ).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Early Greek Art:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_in_ancient_Greece


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ac.charioteer.jpg

---

Haplo E* is of Africa origin and E-M78 has it's roots there, spread into SW Asia and the Medetareanian, creating E-V13 alleles due to mutaions as they moved into another region. Creating this specific marker.

E-V13 subject also carries the V27 mutation. Which is found in the Balkans. The Ptolemy came from the Balkans as Masedonians. With this mutated marker. Entering into Kemet at 500bc.

Detailed population data were obtained on the distribution of novel biallelic markers that finely dissect the human Y-chromosome haplogroup E-M78. Among 6,501 Y chromosomes sampled in 81 human populations worldwide, we found 517 E-M78 chromosomes and assigned them to 10 subhaplogroups. Eleven microsatellite loci were used to further evaluate subhaplogroup internal diversification


The geographic and quantitative analyses of haplogroup and microsatellite diversity is strongly suggestive of a northeastern African origin of E-M78, with a corridor for bidirectional migrations between northeastern and eastern Africa (at least 2 episodes between 23.9–17.3 ky and 18.0–5.9 ky ago), trans-Mediterranean migrations directly from northern Africa to Europe (mainly in the last 13.0 ky), and flow from northeastern Africa to western Asia between 20.0 and 6.8 ky ago.


Among them, 517 chromosomes carrying the M78-derived T allele were further genotyped for 10 markers defining internal nodes, following a hierarchical approach. Typing methods for 8 of these markers (M148, M224, V12, V13, V19, V22, V27, and V32) were previously described (Underhill et al. 2000, 2001; Cruciani et al. 2006).

The only haplogroup showing a wide geographic distribution was E-V22, relatively common not only in northeastern and eastern Africa but also found in Europe and western Asia, up to southern Asia (table 1, fig. 2).


http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300/T1.expansion.html


Interesting was this finding. Published by the BBC.


Cleopatra's mother 'was African'


Cleopatra, the last Egyptian Pharaoh, renowned for her beauty, was part African, says a BBC team which believes it has found her sister's tomb.

Queen Cleopatra was a descendant of Ptolemy, the Macedonian general who ruled Egypt after Alexander the Great.

But remains of the queen's sister Princess Arsinoe, found in Ephesus, Turkey, indicate that her mother had an "African" skeleton.

Experts have described the results as "a real sensation."

The discovery was made by Hilke Thuer of the Austrian Academy of Sciences.

"It is unique in the life of an archaeologist to find the tomb and the skeleton of a member of Ptolemaic dynasty," she said.


"That Arsinoe had an African mother is a real sensation which leads to a new insight on Cleopatra's family and the relationship of the sisters Cleopatra and Arsinoe."

They lived at a turbulent time when the Roman empire was extending its power across the Mediterranean.

Cleopatra established alliances with the Roman leader Julius Caesar and, after his assassination, with his political supporter, General Mark Antony, to whom she was married.

"Cleopatra, Julius Caesar, Mark Antony - they are all iconic figures from history," said archaeologist Neil Oliver who presents the BBC documentary.

"It's almost impossible to remember they were real people and not the semi-mythical figures portrayed by Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor. It was like a splash of cold water in the face to be confronted by them as human beings, " he continued.

"When I stood in the lab and handled the bones of Cleopatra's blood sister - knowing that in her lifetime she touched Cleopatra and perhaps Julius Caesar and Mark Antony as well - I felt the hairs go up on the back of my neck."

"Suddenly these giant figures from history were flesh and blood," said archaeologist Neil Oliver.

There was plenty of sibling rivalry between Princess Arsinoe and her powerful sister Cleopatra - many believe the queen ordered Mark Antony to murder her sister.

The film examines the life of Cleopatra - who had an affair with Julius Caesar - including her murderous intentions towards Arsinoe.

Cleopatra: Portrait of a Killer is on BBC One at 9pm on 23 March 2009.

http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/entertainment/watch/v18075983n2XPntGM
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 









 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

---

Wow - Miss Egypt looks very Negroid . I am surprised the United Turko Republicans even chose her. Just like a sistah with a weave.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hammer:
Since the Egyptian royals were Europeans to start with red hair would not have been an unusual feature though not common.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Hammer:
Since the Egyptian royals were Europeans to start with red hair would not have been an unusual feature though not common.

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These cults can be taken deeper into the Saharan cultures.

And these cults eventually did lead to the Nile civilization.



By Helen Briggs

Science reporter, BBC News


Ancient humans 'followed rains'

By Helen Briggs

Science reporter, BBC News

Prehistoric humans roamed the world's largest desert for some 5,000 years, archaeologists have revealed.

The Eastern Sahara of Egypt, Sudan, Libya and Chad was home to nomadic people who followed rains that turned the desert into grassland.

When the landscape dried up about 7,000 years ago, there was a mass exodus to the Nile and other parts of Africa.

The close link between human settlement and climate has lessons for today, researchers report in Science.

"Even modern day conflicts such as Dafur are caused by environmental degradation as it has been in the past," Dr Stefan Kropelin of the University of Cologne, Germany, told the BBC News website.

"The basic struggle for food, water and pasture is still a big problem in the Sahara zone. This process started thousands of years ago and has a long tradition."

Jigsaw puzzle

The Eastern Sahara, which covers more than 2 million sq km, an area the size of Western Europe, is now almost uninhabited by people or animals, providing a unique window into the past.

Dr Kropelin and colleague Dr Rudolph Kuper pieced together the 10,000-year jigsaw of human migration and settlement; studying more than 100 archaeological sites over the course of 30 years.

In the largest study of its kind, they built up a detailed picture of human evolution in the world's largest desert. They found that far from the inhospitable climate of today, the area was once semi-humid.

Between about 14,000 and 13,000 years ago, the area was very dry. But a drastic switch in environmental conditions some 10,500 years ago brought rain and monsoon-like conditions.

Nomadic human settlers moved in from the south, taking up residence beside rivers and lakes. They were hunter-gatherers at first, living off plants and wild game.

Eventually they became more settled, domesticating cattle for the first time, and making intricate pottery.

Neolithic farmers

Humid conditions prevailed until about 6,000 years ago, when the Sahara abruptly dried out. There was then a gradual exodus of people to the Nile Valley and other parts of the African continent.

“ The domestication of cattle was invented in the Sahara in the humid phase and was then slowly pushed over the rest of Africa ”.


Dr Stefan Kropelin of the University of Cologne

"The Nile Valley was almost devoid of settlement until about exactly the time that the Egyptian Sahara was so dry people could not live there anymore," Dr Kropelin told the BBC News website.

"People preferred to live on savannah land. Only when this wasn't possible they migrated towards southern Sudan and the Nile.

"They brought all their know-how to the rest of the continent - the domestication of cattle was invented in the Sahara in the humid phase and was then slowly pushed over the rest of Africa.

"This Neolithic way of life, which still is a way of life in a sense; preservation of food for the dry season and many other such cultural elements, was introduced to central and southern Africa from the Sahara."

'Motor of evolution'

Dr Kuper said the distribution of people and languages, which is so politically important today, has its roots in the desiccation of the Sahara.

The switch in environmental conditions acted as a "motor of Africa's evolution," he said.

"It happened during these 5,000 years of the savannah that people changed from hunter-gathers to cattle keepers," he said.

"This important step in human history has been made for the first time in the African Sahara."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/science/nature/5192410.stm
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hammer:
It is a matter of logic my friend. 1 +1 is 2.
This is why you people bring up the rear in every catagory of human activity. In your defense I actually think you believe this goofey ideology.

---

The region was once much less arid.

About 8500 BC, seasonal rainfall appeared in the region, creating a savanna and attracting hunter-gatherers. By 5300 BC, the rains had stopped and human settlements receded to highland areas. By 3500 BC, the settlements disappeared entirely.

MOVING TOWARDS THE NILE VALLEY

"After 3-4,000 years of savanna life environment in the Sahara, the desert returned and people were forced to move eastwards to the Nile Valley, contributing to the foundation of Egyptian civilisation, and southwards to the African continent," said Kuper, an expert at Germany's Heinrich Barth Institute.

The mass exodus corresponds with the rise of sedentary life along the Nile that later blossomed into pharaonic civilisation that dominated the region for thousands of years and whose art, architecture and government helped shape Western culture.

"It was a movement, I think, step-by-step, because the desert didn't rush in. The rains would withdraw, then return, and so on. But step by step it became more dry, and people moved toward the Nile Valley or toward the south," Kuper said.

Kuper and his team are recording the geological, botanic and archaeological evidence around the cave, including stone tools and pottery, and will compare it to other sites in the Eastern Sahara region, adding new pieces to a prehistoric puzzle.

"It seems that the paintings of the Cave of the Beasts pre-date the introduction of domesticated animals. That means they predate 6000 BC," said Kuper, who led his first field trip to the cave in April 2009. "That is what we dare to say."

The visible art work covers a surface 18 metres wide and 6 metres high. In October, Kuper's team scanned the cave by laser to capture high-definition, three-dimensional images.

A test dig a few weeks ago during the team's third expedition to the sandstone cave uncovered yet more drawings that extend down 80 cms below the sand, Kindermann said.

"Now we have increasing evidence how rich the prehistoric culture in the Eastern Sahara was," Kuper said.


http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE64N09L20100524


Edited by Thure E. Cerling, University of Utah, Salt Lake City, UT

Isla S. Castañedaa,1, Stefan Mulitzab, Enno Schefußb, Raquel A. Lopes dos Santosa, Jaap S. Sinninghe Damstéa and Stefan Schoutena

Wet phases in the Sahara/Sahel region and human migration patterns in North Africa

The Sahara desert is known to have undergone major, and possibly abrupt, hydrological fluctuations and was vegetated at times in the past (1, 2). During a wet phase in the Early Holocene known as the African Humid Period (AHP), the region currently occupied by the Sahara desert was vegetated, contained forests, grasslands, and permanent lakes, and was occupied by human populations (2).

http://www.pnas.org/content/106/48/20159.full












 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
Repost.


Sahara cave may hold clues to dawn of Egypt

Mon May 24, 2010 9:35am GMT

By Patrick Werr

CAIRO (Reuters) - Archaeologists are studying prehistoric rock drawings discovered in a remote cave in 2002, including dancing figures and strange headless beasts, as they seek new clues about the rise of Egyptian civilisation.

Amateur explorers stumbled across the cave, which includes 5,000 images painted or engraved into stone, in the vast, empty desert near Egypt's southwest border with Libya and Sudan.

Rudolph Kuper, a German archaeologist, said the detail depicted in the "Cave of the Beasts" indicate the site is at least 8,000 years old, likely the work of hunter-gatherers whose descendants may have been among the early settlers of the then-swampy and inhospitable Nile Valley.

The cave is 10 km (6 miles) from the "Cave of the Swimmers" romanticised in the film the "English Patient", but with far more, and better preserved, images.

By studying the sandstone cave and other nearby sites, the archaeologists are trying to build a timeline to compare the culture and technologies of the peoples who inhabited the area.

"It is the most amazing cave ... in North Africa and Egypt," said Karin Kindermann, member of a German-led team that recently made a trip to the site 900 km (560 miles) southwest of Cairo.

"You take a piece of the puzzle and see where it could fit. This is an important piece," she said.

The Eastern Sahara, a region the size of Western Europe that extends from Egypt into Libya, Sudan and Chad, is the world's largest warm, dry desert. Rainfall in the desert's centre averages less than 2 millimetres a year.

The region was once much less arid.

About 8500 BC, seasonal rainfall appeared in the region, creating a savanna and attracting hunter-gatherers. By 5300 BC, the rains had stopped and human settlements receded to highland areas. By 3500 BC, the settlements disappeared entirely.

MOVING TOWARDS THE NILE VALLEY

"After 3-4,000 years of savanna life environment in the Sahara, the desert returned and people were forced to move eastwards to the Nile Valley, contributing to the foundation of Egyptian civilisation, and southwards to the African continent," said Kuper, an expert at Germany's Heinrich Barth Institute.

The mass exodus corresponds with the rise of sedentary life along the Nile that later blossomed into pharaonic civilisation that dominated the region for thousands of years and whose art, architecture and government helped shape Western culture.

"It was a movement, I think, step-by-step, because the desert didn't rush in. The rains would withdraw, then return, and so on. But step by step it became more dry, and people moved toward the Nile Valley or toward the south," Kuper said.

Kuper and his team are recording the geological, botanic and archaeological evidence around the cave, including stone tools and pottery, and will compare it to other sites in the Eastern Sahara region, adding new pieces to a prehistoric puzzle.

"It seems that the paintings of the Cave of the Beasts pre-date the introduction of domesticated animals. That means they predate 6000 BC," said Kuper, who led his first field trip to the cave in April 2009. "That is what we dare to say."

The visible art work covers a surface 18 metres wide and 6 metres high. In October, Kuper's team scanned the cave by laser to capture high-definition, three-dimensional images.

A test dig a few weeks ago during the team's third expedition to the sandstone cave uncovered yet more drawings that extend down 80 cms below the sand, Kindermann said.

"Now we have increasing evidence how rich the prehistoric culture in the Eastern Sahara was," Kuper said.

http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE64N09L20100524
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
If King Tut was R1b then I would speculate that it was due to Hittites.

From the Amarna letters we have Ankhesenamon who apparently wrote a letter to Suppilulumia informing him that she had no sons of her own and asked him to send to her one of his sons whom she would marry and make Pharaoh. Now why would an Egyptian want to have a Hittite as a Pharaoh? Perhaps there's more to this than we had previously known.

Lets keep in mind that this is a period by which alliances were formed by such marriages. So if King Tut did have R1b the question would be was it due to an ancient alliance between Asiatics and Africans?

---

Then a king will come from the South,
Ameny, the justified, my name,
Son of a woman of Ta-Seti, child of Upper Egypt,
He will take the white crown,
he willjoin the Two Mighty Ones (the two crowns)

Asiatics will fall to his sword,
Libyans will fall to his flame,
Rebels to his wrath, traitors to his might,
As the serpent on his brow subdues the rebels for him,
One will build the Walls-of-the-Ruler,
To bar Asiatics from entering Egypt...

The Oxford history of ancient Egypt
"Then a king will come from the South"

http://tinyurl.com/352q2km

http://www.liv.ac.uk/sace/organisation/people/shawi.htm
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
The nubian mesolithic: A consideration of the Wadi Halfa remains

Meredith F. Small*

Department of anthropology, University of Colorado, Boulder,

Morphological variation of the skeletal remains of ancient Nubia has been traditionally explained as a product of multiple migrations into the Nile Valley. In contrast, various researchers have noted a continuity in craniofacial variation from Mesolithic through Neolithic times. This apparent continuity could be explained by in situ cultural evolution producing shifts in selective pressures which may act on teeth, the facial complex, and the cranial vault.

A series of 13 Mesolithic skulls from Wadi Halfa, Sudan, are compared to Nubian Neolithic remains by means of extended canonical analysis. Results support recent research which suggests consistent trends of facial reduction and cranial vault expansion from Mesolithic through Neolithic times.


Focus on Archeology ACADEMIA, No. 1 (1) 2004.

The Megaliths of Nabta Playa Mysteries of the South Western Desert

"The Late and Final Neolithic societies of the South Western Desert lived in a symbiotic relationship with their agricultural counter- parts in the Upper Nile Valley. This relation- ship is clearly seen in the presence of many imported goods from the Nile Valley, and perhaps also in a multiethnic character of the desert population. Yet the ceremonial center of Nabta Playa also shows that at least some of the roots of ancient Egyptian be- liefs, magic and religion are present there."

"Perhaps the most convincing tie between the myths and religion of Ancient Egypt and the Cattle Herders of the South Western Desert are the groups of Nabta Basin stelae. The stelae here face the circumpolar region of the he- avens. According to the early Egyptian mortu- ary texts known as Pyramid Texts, this is a pla- ce where the stars never die and where there is no death at all. This is the region of Dāt, the goal of the deceased, the Field of Offerings, in which the departed will live as an “effective” spirit."

"The well-organized and usually very worrisome desert herders, probably speaking the same or a similar language as the people in the Nile Valley, when pu- shed towards the relatively crowded Valley inhabited by traditionally peaceful peasant societies, may have served as catalysts for these processes."

http://www.academia.pan.pl/pdfen/beginnings_10-15+Schild.pdf
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
"The TMRCA of the European E-V13 chromosomes turns out to be 4.0–4.7 ky (under 2 different demographic expansion scenarios, see Subjects and Methods; 95% CI 3.5–4.6 ky and 4.1–5.3 ky, respectively)."
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
R1b1b2a1a (S21+), previously known as R1b1b2a

Unusually short DYS458 alleles (DYS458.2) are associated with R1b1b2a1 (S21, aka M405). Cases of this allele have so far been detected in Ireland, England, Germany, the Netherlands and the U.S.(1-5%) and this appears to a unique west European marker. The DYS458.2 allele also occurs independently in the Y-chromosome J1 subclade.

The R1b1b2a1 (S21+) is a prominent R1b subclade and is likely the major subclade in resolving identity after the R1b1b2 (M269+) subclade. It frequency is highest in the Dutch (35%) and it is also rather high in England, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Czech Republic and Switzerland (13-23%). This region overlaps origins of Germanic groups, such as the Anglo-Saxons in Frisia. It does not appear to have extended its reach beyond West and Central Europe (except recent migration to the U.S.).

The levels of the R1b1b2a (S127+) subclade in conjunction with other R subclades have not been reported to date.

R1b1b2a1a1 (S29+), previously known as R1b1b2a1a

The R1b1b2a1a1 subclade is defined by SNP S29. This subclade has not been widely studied, but current results show it the Netherlands, Denmark, England, Germany and Russia (1-2%). A small frequency of the R1b1b2a1a1 (S29+) subclade has also been found at a low level in the U.S.(~1%).

There is another independent Haplogroup R sub-lineage designated R2. R2 is likely to have originated (~25kya) in South Asia, around India/Pakistan. The R2 subclade is highest in East India (50-60%) and Sri Lanka (75%). Some R2 has been observed in the Caucasus and Central Asia (e.g. Nepal), but it has not spread beyond these regions, except with a Gypsy population (Sinte Romani), which likely originated in India. There is relatively high level in Kurds in Georgia (44% of Kurmanji) and this population is likely an outcome of a bottleneck and genetic drift.



R1b1b2a1a (S21+), previously known as R1b1b2a
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
R1b-M412 appears to be the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in Western Europe (470%), while being virtually absent in the Near East, the Caucasus and West Asia
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hammer:
The DNA tests say otherwise. R1b

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
It would be nice if someone actually adressed the Amarna letters rather than skirting around the issue.

Why would an Egyptian princess want to marry a Hittite. Why would she show no interest in being with her own kind? Was she not married to her own kind? Why now the interest in a foreigner especially one from an area that we know has R1b populations?

Again, I am not religious about Egypt. Just like there are Black people in European history (even in their royal families), I see no reason why Indo-Europeans could not have also been a part of Egyptian history in somewhat the same way as Blacks in Europe.

Egypt is certainly not a European culture and has affinities with the people of the Sahara and East Africa more so than anywhere else.

But it is an interesting question - why an Asiatic husband?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
It would be nice if someone actually adressed the Amarna letters rather than skirting around the issue.

Why would an Egyptian princess want to marry a Hittite. Why would she show no interest in being with her own kind? Was she not married to her own kind? Why now the interest in a foreigner especially one from an area that we know has R1b populations?

Again, I am not religious about Egypt. Just like there are Black people in European history (even in their royal families), I see no reason why Indo-Europeans could not have also been a part of Egyptian history in somewhat the same way as Blacks in Europe.

Egypt is certainly not a European culture and has affinities with the people of the Sahara and East Africa more so than anywhere else.

But it is an interesting question - why an Asiatic husband?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
It would be nice if someone actually adressed the Amarna letters rather than skirting around the issue.

Why would an Egyptian princess want to marry a Hittite. Why would she show no interest in being with her own kind? Was she not married to her own kind? Why now the interest in a foreigner especially one from an area that we know has R1b populations?

Again, I am not religious about Egypt. Just like there are Black people in European history (even in their royal families), I see no reason why Indo-Europeans could not have also been a part of Egyptian history in somewhat the same way as Blacks in Europe.

Egypt is certainly not a European culture and has affinities with the people of the Sahara and East Africa more so than anywhere else.

But it is an interesting question - why an Asiatic husband?

---

R1b what?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
It would be nice if someone actually adressed the Amarna letters rather than skirting around the issue.

Why would an Egyptian princess want to marry a Hittite. Why would she show no interest in being with her own kind? Was she not married to her own kind? Why now the interest in a foreigner especially one from an area that we know has R1b populations?

Again, I am not religious about Egypt. Just like there are Black people in European history (even in their royal families), I see no reason why Indo-Europeans could not have also been a part of Egyptian history in somewhat the same way as Blacks in Europe.

Egypt is certainly not a European culture and has affinities with the people of the Sahara and East Africa more so than anywhere else.

But it is an interesting question - why an Asiatic husband?

---

R1b what?

---

Sounds like you don't want to discuss the connection between R1b and the Amarna letters.

The Amarna letters are interesting in that it is suggestive of a link between Asiatic males and the royal families of Egypt.

I know a lot of us don't like using the Bible as a reference but I still can't help but think about Potifer's wife and the story of Joseph.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
It would be nice if someone actually adressed the Amarna letters rather than skirting around the issue.

Why would an Egyptian princess want to marry a Hittite. Why would she show no interest in being with her own kind? Was she not married to her own kind? Why now the interest in a foreigner especially one from an area that we know has R1b populations?

Again, I am not religious about Egypt. Just like there are Black people in European history (even in their royal families), I see no reason why Indo-Europeans could not have also been a part of Egyptian history in somewhat the same way as Blacks in Europe.

Egypt is certainly not a European culture and has affinities with the people of the Sahara and East Africa more so than anywhere else.

But it is an interesting question - why an Asiatic husband?

---

R1b what?

---

Sounds like you don't want to discuss the connection between R1b and the Amarna letters.

The Amarna letters are interesting in that it is suggestive of a link between Asiatic males and the royal families of Egypt.

I know a lot of us don't like using the Bible as a reference but I still can't help but think about Potifer's wife and the story of Joseph.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
AND I AM R1B and I am STILL VERY MUCH BLACK!!!

idiot.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
It would be nice if someone actually adressed the Amarna letters rather than skirting around the issue.

Why would an Egyptian princess want to marry a Hittite. Why would she show no interest in being with her own kind? Was she not married to her own kind? Why now the interest in a foreigner especially one from an area that we know has R1b populations?



Ankhesenamun's thinking was very understandable, though naive. She was about 19 years old, the man she was required to marry (Ay) was 70 years old. Her mistake cost Zannanza his life, and it ultimately cost her own life.


Again, I am not religious about Egypt. Just like there are Black people in European history (even in their royal families), I see no reason why Indo-Europeans could not have also been a part of Egyptian history in somewhat the same way as Blacks in Europe.

Here your delusions in proportionality show through.

Egypt is certainly not a European culture and has affinities with the people of the Sahara and East Africa more so than anywhere else.

But it is an interesting question - why an Asiatic husband?

The Amarna letters are interesting in that it is suggestive of a link between Asiatic males and the royal families of Egypt.

osirion, everyone but you, understands that these were ONE-WAY "Female" transactions! Egyptians did NOT send their Princesses to foreign courts, they only TOOK Princesses "FROM" foreign courts.

Letter from Kadashman Enlil I, king of Babylon, To Amenhotep III


Kadashman Enlil of Babylon to Amenhotep of Egypt [..missing..] How is it possible that, having written to you in order to ask for the hand of your daughter - oh my brother, you should have written me using such language, telling me that you will not give her to me as since earliest times no daughter of the king of Egypt has ever been given in marriage? Why are you telling me such things? You are the king. You may do as you wish. If you wanted to give me your daughter in marriage who could say you nay?

But you, keeping to your principle of not sending anybody, have not sent me a wife. Have you not been looking for a fraternal and amicable relationship, when you suggested to me - in writing - a marriage, in order to make us become closer? Why hasn't my brother sent me a wife? [...] It is possible for you not to send me a wife, but how could I refuse you a wife and not send her to you, as you did? I have daughters, I will not refuse you in any way concerning this....


As to the gold about which I wrote you, send me now quickly during this summer [.... ] before your messenger reach me, gold in abundance, as much as is available. I could thus achieve the task I have undertaken. If you send me this summer [...] the gold concerning which I've written to you, I shall give you my daughter in marriage. Therefore, send gold, willingly, as much as you please. But if you do not send me gold [...] so I can achieve the task I have undertaken , why haven't you sent me any earlier willingly? After I have finished the task I have undertaken , why would I wish for gold? Even if you sent me 3000 talents of gold I would not accept them. I would return them and would not give you my daughter in marriage.

---

 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
A Note on the Origins of Ghana
EVA L. R. MEYEROWITZ
Abstract

We are to-day in the presence of a contemporary myth, the belief of Gold Coast patriots that they descend from the ancient Ghana kingdom, which was disrupted nine centuries ago. Certain leaders, like Dr. J. B. Danquah, go further, and declare that the names Akan and Ghana derive from the Sumerian Akkad, buttressing this assertion with many recondite linguistic parallels, and cultural resemblances like the seven-day week. Mrs. Meyerowitx is one of the leading authorities on the early history of the Gold Coast, and she was invited to write a short note on the subject in the light of modern research notably by R. Mauny, who thinks that there are only the slightest chances of the link between Akan and Ghana, whose true descendants are the Sarakold or Soninkd, first in the Macina, then at Djenne.

Oxford University Press


The central Sahel is characterized by a strong linguistic fragmentation with populations speaking languages belonging to three of the four linguistic families of Africa (Afroasiatic, Niger-Congo, and Nilo-Saharan).

When the linguistic affiliation of the populations from the central Sahel was also taken into account, a clear-cut divide was observed between those speaking Afroasiatic languages (including the Berber-speaking Tuareg, the Semitic Arab Shuwa, and Chadic-speaking populations from northern Cameroon) and the other populations (Mann–Whitney test P¼1.4103), with Chadic-speaking populations mostly contributing to this difference. It is worth noting that, if the finding of 20% R-V88 chromosomes among the Hausa (Table 1) is representative, this population, encompassing by far more people than all other Chadic speakers, 44 also encompasses the highest absolute number of V88 carriers. In contrast to prior studies on nuclear (mostly autosomal) ins/del and microsatellite markers, 45 the Chadic are distinguished from the Nilo-Saharan-speaking populations at the Y chromosome variation level.

Repeated assimilations of Nilo-Saharan females over generations may account for these con-
flicting signals. Among the Niger-Congo-speaking populations, the frequency of the haplogroup R-V88 ranged between 0.0 and 66.7%. Outside central Africa, haplogroup R-V88 was only observed in Afroasiatic-speaking populations from northern Africa, with frequencies ranging from 0.3% in Morocco, to 3.0% in Algeria, and to 11.5% in Egypt, where a particularly high frequency (26.9%) was observed among the Berbers from the Siwa Oasis.

This haplo is 0 to 1% frequency in individuals, in some South European populations! HOW COME?


University of Illinois

WHC: You describe two other groups. One of them is the Afrasans. Can you talk about them for a moment?

Ehret: These are people who have been called Afro-Asiatic and also Afrasian. I'm saying "Afrasan" because I'm trying to get "Asia" out. There is still this idea that the Afro-Asiatic family had to come out of Asia. Once you realize that it's an African family with one little Asian offshoot, well, that itself is a very important lesson for world historians.

We actually have DNA evidence which fits very well with an intrusion of people from northwestern African into southwestern Asia. The Y-chromosome markers, associated with the male, fade out as you go deeper into the Middle East.

http://worldhistoryconnected.press.illinois.edu/2.1/ehret.html








 

---

Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
It would be nice if someone actually adressed the Amarna letters rather than skirting around the issue.

Why would an Egyptian princess want to marry a Hittite. Why would she show no interest in being with her own kind? Was she not married to her own kind? Why now the interest in a foreigner especially one from an area that we know has R1b populations?

Again, I am not religious about Egypt. Just like there are Black people in European history (even in their royal families), I see no reason why Indo-Europeans could not have also been a part of Egyptian history in somewhat the same way as Blacks in Europe.

Egypt is certainly not a European culture and has affinities with the people of the Sahara and East Africa more so than anywhere else.

But it is an interesting question - why an Asiatic husband?

---

R1b what?

---

Sounds like you don't want to discuss the connection between R1b and the Amarna letters.

The Amarna letters are interesting in that it is suggestive of a link between Asiatic males and the royal families of Egypt.

I know a lot of us don't like using the Bible as a reference but I still can't help but think about Potifer's wife and the story of Joseph.

---

It sound like you don't know what you're talking about. And try to deflect the question being asked.

So what R1b specification do you speak of?

The bible was altered, by the way. Unless you go to the original sources your bible argument is pointless.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
osirion - As usual, you take the simplest thing, insert a Caucasian, and run with it. How many times must you be told that there was no such people as Hittites, they were Hatti: and R is NOT a White haplogroup?

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
It would be nice if someone actually adressed the Amarna letters rather than skirting around the issue.

Why would an Egyptian princess want to marry a Hittite. Why would she show no interest in being with her own kind? Was she not married to her own kind? Why now the interest in a foreigner especially one from an area that we know has R1b populations?



Ankhesenamun's thinking was very understandable, though naive. She was about 19 years old, the man she was required to marry (Ay) was 70 years old. Her mistake cost Zannanza his life, and it ultimately cost her own life.


Again, I am not religious about Egypt. Just like there are Black people in European history (even in their royal families), I see no reason why Indo-Europeans could not have also been a part of Egyptian history in somewhat the same way as Blacks in Europe.

Here your delusions in proportionality show through.

Egypt is certainly not a European culture and has affinities with the people of the Sahara and East Africa more so than anywhere else.

But it is an interesting question - why an Asiatic husband?

The Amarna letters are interesting in that it is suggestive of a link between Asiatic males and the royal families of Egypt.

osirion, everyone but you, understands that these were ONE-WAY "Female" transactions! Egyptians did NOT send their Princesses to foreign courts, they only TOOK Princesses "FROM" foreign courts.

Letter from Kadashman Enlil I, king of Babylon, To Amenhotep III


Kadashman Enlil of Babylon to Amenhotep of Egypt [..missing..] How is it possible that, having written to you in order to ask for the hand of your daughter - oh my brother, you should have written me using such language, telling me that you will not give her to me as since earliest times no daughter of the king of Egypt has ever been given in marriage? Why are you telling me such things? You are the king. You may do as you wish. If you wanted to give me your daughter in marriage who could say you nay?

But you, keeping to your principle of not sending anybody, have not sent me a wife. Have you not been looking for a fraternal and amicable relationship, when you suggested to me - in writing - a marriage, in order to make us become closer? Why hasn't my brother sent me a wife? [...] It is possible for you not to send me a wife, but how could I refuse you a wife and not send her to you, as you did? I have daughters, I will not refuse you in any way concerning this....


As to the gold about which I wrote you, send me now quickly during this summer [.... ] before your messenger reach me, gold in abundance, as much as is available. I could thus achieve the task I have undertaken. If you send me this summer [...] the gold concerning which I've written to you, I shall give you my daughter in marriage. Therefore, send gold, willingly, as much as you please. But if you do not send me gold [...] so I can achieve the task I have undertaken , why haven't you sent me any earlier willingly? After I have finished the task I have undertaken , why would I wish for gold? Even if you sent me 3000 talents of gold I would not accept them. I would return them and would not give you my daughter in marriage.

---

---

First, I will not listen to a racist.

Second, I didn't say anything about R1b being Caucasian. If we don't want to call them Hittites then how about Syrians or Turks, etc.

Point is that R1b is not uncommon in Syrians and Turks and it is from this population that the Wife of Tut wanted a husband.
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
Understand that perfectly, but I am asking for specific markers of the R1b type.

The "African" variant is not found in Europe. Its merely found amongst certain African populations. Which are found in abundance in Sahara living populations, where the Nile Valley culture is rooted.

And since you've inserted this R1b, I like to get specific. What markers are you talking about. And do you have genetic studies on the Hittite?


Also, how is it you first call them Indo-Europeans and then Asian men?

The Berbers who do carry the specific R1b marker in the regions of Lybia/ Egypt, are the Siwa. And are like other Northeast Africans abundantly E-M78. Whereas other Berber groups mainly carry the downstream E-M81 of the parent clade E-M78.

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
It would be nice if someone actually adressed the Amarna letters rather than skirting around the issue.

Why would an Egyptian princess want to marry a Hittite. Why would she show no interest in being with her own kind? Was she not married to her own kind? Why now the interest in a foreigner especially one from an area that we know has R1b populations?

Again, I am not religious about Egypt. Just like there are Black people in European history (even in their royal families), I see no reason why Indo-Europeans could not have also been a part of Egyptian history in somewhat the same way as Blacks in Europe.

Egypt is certainly not a European culture and has affinities with the people of the Sahara and East Africa more so than anywhere else.

But it is an interesting question - why an Asiatic husband?

---

R1b what?

---

Sounds like you don't want to discuss the connection between R1b and the Amarna letters.

The Amarna letters are interesting in that it is suggestive of a link between Asiatic males and the royal families of Egypt.

I know a lot of us don't like using the Bible as a reference but I still can't help but think about Potifer's wife and the story of Joseph.

---

It sound like you don't know what you're talking about. And try to deflect the question being asked.

So what R1b specification do you speak of?

The bible was altered, by the way. Unless you go to the original sources your bible argument is pointless.

---

Not trying to argue. Maybe that is the problem here. I am asking for an open minded opinion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Understand that perfectly, but I am asking for specific markers of the R1b type.

The "African" variant is not found in Europe. Its merely found amongst certain African populations. Which are found in abundance in Sahara living populations, where the Nile Valley culture is rooted.

And since you've inserted this R1b, I like to get specific. What markers are you talking about. And do you have genetic studies on the Hittite?


Also, how is it you first call them Indo-Europeans and then Asian men?

The Berbers who do carry the specific R1b marker in the regions of Lybia/ Egypt, are the Siwa. And are like other Northeast Africans abundantly E-M78. Whereas other Berber groups mainly carry the downstream E-M81 of the parent clade E-M78.

quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:
It would be nice if someone actually adressed the Amarna letters rather than skirting around the issue.

Why would an Egyptian princess want to marry a Hittite. Why would she show no interest in being with her own kind? Was she not married to her own kind? Why now the interest in a foreigner especially one from an area that we know has R1b populations?

Again, I am not religious about Egypt. Just like there are Black people in European history (even in their royal families), I see no reason why Indo-Europeans could not have also been a part of Egyptian history in somewhat the same way as Blacks in Europe.

Egypt is certainly not a European culture and has affinities with the people of the Sahara and East Africa more so than anywhere else.

But it is an interesting question - why an Asiatic husband?

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R1b what?

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Sounds like you don't want to discuss the connection between R1b and the Amarna letters.

The Amarna letters are interesting in that it is suggestive of a link between Asiatic males and the royal families of Egypt.

I know a lot of us don't like using the Bible as a reference but I still can't help but think about Potifer's wife and the story of Joseph.

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It sound like you don't know what you're talking about. And try to deflect the question being asked.

So what R1b specification do you speak of?

The bible was altered, by the way. Unless you go to the original sources your bible argument is pointless.

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Not trying to argue. Maybe that is the problem here. I am asking for an open minded opinion.

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quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Understand that perfectly, but I am asking for specific markers of the R1b type.

The "African" variant is not found in Europe. Its merely found amongst certain African populations. Which are found in abundance in Sahara living populations, where the Nile Valley culture is rooted.

And since you've inserted this R1b, I like to get specific. What markers are you talking about. And do you have genetic studies on the Hittite?


Also, how is it you first call them Indo-Europeans and then Asian men?

The Berbers who do carry the specific R1b marker in the regions of Lybia/ Egypt, are the Siwa. And are like other Northeast Africans abundantly E-M78. Whereas other Berber groups mainly carry the downstream E-M81 of the parent clade E-M78.

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
It would be nice if someone actually adressed the Amarna letters rather than skirting around the issue.

Why would an Egyptian princess want to marry a Hittite. Why would she show no interest in being with her own kind? Was she not married to her own kind? Why now the interest in a foreigner especially one from an area that we know has R1b populations?

Again, I am not religious about Egypt. Just like there are Black people in European history (even in their royal families), I see no reason why Indo-Europeans could not have also been a part of Egyptian history in somewhat the same way as Blacks in Europe.

Egypt is certainly not a European culture and has affinities with the people of the Sahara and East Africa more so than anywhere else.

But it is an interesting question - why an Asiatic husband?

---

R1b what?

---

Sounds like you don't want to discuss the connection between R1b and the Amarna letters.

The Amarna letters are interesting in that it is suggestive of a link between Asiatic males and the royal families of Egypt.

I know a lot of us don't like using the Bible as a reference but I still can't help but think about Potifer's wife and the story of Joseph.

---

It sound like you don't know what you're talking about. And try to deflect the question being asked.

So what R1b specification do you speak of?

The bible was altered, by the way. Unless you go to the original sources your bible argument is pointless.

---

Not trying to argue. Maybe that is the problem here. I am asking for an open minded opinion.

---

---

Western Asiatics - Indo European - Eurasian

I retract all of this and replace it with:

Turko-Syrian people.


In terms of R1b in me - that is because I have a Scottish ancestor.

In terms of R1b in Tut - it is all speculation.

If it isn't the African variant then my point about the Amarna letters comes into play.

Was it more than just Tut's wife that married Turks? Was she herself of Turkish ancestry?

Have Turks been mixing with NE Africans for quite sometime?

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You don't seem to answer my question: R1b what exactly? I have repeated myself many times.

So you have a Scottish ancestor? Likely the subclade/ downstream R1b1b2a1a2f2? Which is odd since North Africans carry the African types from 0 to 4% in frequency.

And now all of a sudden Tuts dna is speculation, when it appears to cluster very well with the history of the region and the people?

Well, EGYPT is like all of Northeast Africa composed of E-M78 which has the parent clade E-M35. And Siwa Berbers carry this R* haplo in the highest frequency in that region, 23%. On average it's about 11% in Egypt.


Another add one I like to make here is:


National Berber symbol


The Tuareg script.



The basis of Berber languages are the Chadic languages. And Chadic languages are at the basis, and have spread the Afroasiatic linguistic groups.



Kanaga Mask in Three Pieces

Dancers perform with Kanaga masks at ceremonies honoring the dead. Rotating their upper bodies from the hips and swinging the masks in wide circles, the dancers imitate Amma, the creator god, who brought all things to life. Their outstretched movements spread the life force throughout the world.


Amma and Amon is only a slit of difference, considering the fact that language is dynamic. And according to the principles, the root word is however the same; AM.

Oddly Amon (AMEN) means the Hidden one, and the Kanaga masks at ceremonies is for honoring the dead (the Hidden).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_Sf_lZ9Z70
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
This here is interesting.

R1b-M412 appears to be the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in Western Europe (470%), while being virtually absent in the Near East, the Caucasus and West Asia. And likely they did not carry sickle-cell disease.

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Understand that perfectly, but I am asking for specific markers of the R1b type.

The "African" variant is not found in Europe. Its merely found amongst certain African populations. Which are found in abundance in Sahara living populations, where the Nile Valley culture is rooted.

And since you've inserted this R1b, I like to get specific. What markers are you talking about. And do you have genetic studies on the Hittite?


Also, how is it you first call them Indo-Europeans and then Asian men?

The Berbers who do carry the specific R1b marker in the regions of Lybia/ Egypt, are the Siwa. And are like other Northeast Africans abundantly E-M78. Whereas other Berber groups mainly carry the downstream E-M81 of the parent clade E-M78.

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
It would be nice if someone actually adressed the Amarna letters rather than skirting around the issue.

Why would an Egyptian princess want to marry a Hittite. Why would she show no interest in being with her own kind? Was she not married to her own kind? Why now the interest in a foreigner especially one from an area that we know has R1b populations?

Again, I am not religious about Egypt. Just like there are Black people in European history (even in their royal families), I see no reason why Indo-Europeans could not have also been a part of Egyptian history in somewhat the same way as Blacks in Europe.

Egypt is certainly not a European culture and has affinities with the people of the Sahara and East Africa more so than anywhere else.

But it is an interesting question - why an Asiatic husband?

---

R1b what?

---

Sounds like you don't want to discuss the connection between R1b and the Amarna letters.

The Amarna letters are interesting in that it is suggestive of a link between Asiatic males and the royal families of Egypt.

I know a lot of us don't like using the Bible as a reference but I still can't help but think about Potifer's wife and the story of Joseph.

---

It sound like you don't know what you're talking about. And try to deflect the question being asked.

So what R1b specification do you speak of?

The bible was altered, by the way. Unless you go to the original sources your bible argument is pointless.

---

Not trying to argue. Maybe that is the problem here. I am asking for an open minded opinion.

---

---

Western Asiatics - Indo European - Eurasian

I retract all of this and replace it with:

Turko-Syrian people.


In terms of R1b in me - that is because I have a Scottish ancestor.

In terms of R1b in Tut - it is all speculation.

If it isn't the African variant then my point about the Amarna letters comes into play.

Was it more than just Tut's wife that married Turks? Was she herself of Turkish ancestry?

Have Turks been mixing with NE Africans for quite sometime?

---

I was under the assumption the Royal Fam married within the Fam only, to preserve the bloodline? Howcome a Turkish wife, when modern, the present Turks are only recently in that region, anyway?

These is the depiction of Tut Ankh Amun's wife (if I am correct here). And notice her name: Ankh Esen Amun





Oddly in the same region you will find.....

King Tut died from sickle-cell disease, not malaria Just like his ancestors!

King Tutankhamun died from sickle-cell disease, not malaria, say experts. A team from Hamburg's Bernhard Noct Institute for Tropical Medicine (BNI) claim the disease is a far likelier cause of death than the combination of bone disorders and malaria put forward by Egyptian experts earlier this year.

The BNI team argues that theories offered by Egyptian experts, led by antiquities tsar Zahi Hawass, are based on data that can be interpreted otherwise. They say further analysis of the data will confirm or deny their work. Hawass' claim, published in the Journal of the American Medical Association this February, and followed by a swarm of accompanying television shows, claimed King Tut suffered from Kohler's disease, a bone disorder prohibiting blood flow, before succumbing to malaria.

Multiple bone disorders, including one in Tutankhamun's left foot, led to the Kohler's diagnosis, while segments of a malarial parasite were found via DNA testing. Yet the BNI team claims the latter results are incorrect. “Malaria in combination with Köhler's disease causing Tutankhamun's early death seems unlikely to us,” say Prof Christian Meyer and Dr Christian Timmann.

Instead the BNI team feels sickle-cell disease (SCD), a genetic blood disorder, is a more likely reason for the Pharaoh's death aged just 19. The disease occurs in 9 to 22 per cent of people living in the Egyptian oases, and gives a better chance of surviving malaria; the infestation halted by sickled cells.

They say the disease occurs frequently in malarial regions like the River Nile, and that it would account for the bone defects found on his body.

“The genetic predisposition for (SCD) can be found in regions where malaria frequently occurs, including ancient and modern Egypt.” says Meyer. “The disease can only manifest itself when a sickle cell trait is inherited from both parents: it is a so-called 'recessive inheritance'.” A family tree for the Pharaoh suggested by Hawass himself appears to back the BNI team's case.

The relatively old age of Tutankhamun's parents and relatives – up to 50 years – means they could very well have carried sickle-cell traits, and could therefore have been highly resistant to malaria. The high likelihood that King Tut's parents were siblings means he could have inherited the sickle cell trait from both and suffered from SCD.

“Sickle-cell disease is an important differential diagnosis: one that existing DNA material can probably confirm or rule out,” conclude Timmann and Meyer. They suggest that further testing of ancient Egyptian royal mummies should bear their conclusions in mind.

King Tut's young demise has long been a source of speculation. As well as malaria, recent decades have seen scholars argue that he was murdered, and that he died from infection caused by a broken leg.


http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/history/king-tut-died-from-sicklecell-disease-not-malaria-2010531.html








 

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