posted
It seems that most Egyptians tend to pay little attention to Africa and Africans in general. This is rather odd, considering that the Nile flows from inner Africa into Egypt and provides precious life to these same people who ignore their African brothers and sisters.
Why is this the case and when will Egyptians pay more attention to their African neighbors, especially those from Non-Arabic speaking countries?
Posts: 422 | From: Leave No Stone Unturned! | Registered: Feb 2011
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Who knows whether "most" Egyptians pay or not pay attention to the rest of Africa. Their government (now Ex) certainly does, especially in relationship to the matter you mentioned: the Nile water. They've come dangerously close to getting into conflicts with far upper Nile Valley territories, like say that of Ethiopia.
It should be recognized that Ethiopia and Egypt did get into military confrontation against the other before, in modern history. It can happen again. For what it's worth, the previous conflict I had in mind, culminated in Ethiopia coming ahead of Egypt.
The Nile flows from deep within Africa and ends up in the lower Nile Valley territory of Egypt. This itself is yet another indicator of just how much deep ties the Nile Valley has to "inner" Africa, and not some superficial one. It serves as Egypt's lifeline from the times of the Pharaohs to this modern "Arab-stooge" era. So back to your question, as to whether modern Egyptians give a hoot about the rest of Africa? There are probably mixed feelings about this, and so it may boil down to the prevailing feeling. And in any case, who cares who cares what modern Egyptians think of the rest of Africa? We know that in antiquity, people of the same territory felt more kinship to the Africans they were aware of, especially up the Nile, than they were to groups of external territories. But then again, present day Egypt is a far cry from the ancient counterpart. For example, one is Egyptic-speaking and the other is Arabic-speaking. Likewise, one is more African and the other is less-African...almost like the distinction between day and night.
BTW, Egypt has always been a member of the African Union until this point!
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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The Africa Cup of Nations is a biannual soccer tournament in Africa and the Egyptians certainly do pay attention to the rest of Africa in this regard. The same for continental athletic games.
Point is that the northern cities of Alexandria and Cairo are home to descendants of settlers mixed in with some of the locals--like the Spanish ruling groups in Mexico and other Spanish language countries in Central and South America.
But outside of Cairo and Alexandria up the Nile the darker Egyptians see themselves differently.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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^ Unfortunately Arab-Turkish imperialism and especially Western European imperialism has played a large role in the negative perception of black African identity.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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If Europeans have that much influence on their minds, then that is an insult on their intelligence, because it says that they are stupid enough to be duped or brainwashed. It is amazing a people like Egyptians, with such a distinguished history, have allowed foreigners to come in and completely change their natural identity; they've allowed foreigners to define who they are. And although Egyptians are not like American Indians, in terms of the impact that extermination campaigns of foreigners had on their population, they might as well be almost as less visible as those Indians, because they no longer have an identity of their own, outside of the name of the country. Just sad.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: The Africa Cup of Nations is a biannual soccer tournament in Africa and the Egyptians certainly do pay attention to the rest of Africa in this regard. The same for continental athletic games.
Point is that the northern cities of Alexandria and Cairo are home to descendants of settlers mixed in with some of the locals--like the Spanish ruling groups in Mexico and other Spanish language countries in Central and South America.
But outside of Cairo and Alexandria up the Nile the darker Egyptians see themselves differently.
Problem with that thinking is the bulk of the Egyptian population is from the Delta.
You are asking Egyptians to identify themselves as minorities which the majority definately doesn't consider themselves to be African.
Many of those "darker" Egyptians are former military recruits Khedive Mohamed Ali brought back from his campaign in Sudan. They somewhat mixed with Saeedis but you can generally see how those "darker" 'Egyptians' have segregated themselves.
Humorously what many Cairnes like to forget is all those Foreigners from Turkey, Greece, and Armenia also segregated themselves. Not many Egyptians in the major cities are actually as mixed as they would like to believe. They like to claim they have foreign blood prior to the 52' revolution when in fact their family didn't move to Cairo until after 62'.
Why can't you AE and Egyptology nuts be satisfied with the Pharaohs being African? Why do you need modern Egyptians to be as black as you?
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Unfortunately Arab-Turkish imperialism and especially Western European imperialism has played a large role in the negative perception of black African identity.
Well that and history.
No Egyptians were brought to the Americas on slave ships.
Its not "brainwashing" is just historical fact.
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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Slave comes from the word slav, defining a European people. If enslavement of people is the reason to be racist and generalize people into a group to be hated, then this should start with 'white people'. Egyptians should hate 'white people' even more than they do blacks, on the basis of this. And the idea of Egyptians of not having been enslaved is funny, considering that they have no identity of their own. How's that not being a slave?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Problem with that thinking is the bulk of the Egyptian population is from the Delta. You are asking Egyptians to identify themselves as minorities which the majority definately doesn't consider themselves to be African.
Actually there is a problem with your thinking. If they don't wish to be identified as Africans, then the task is simple: vacate Africa. But as long as they claim to be native to a territory of Africa, the only logical conclusion from this, is that they are Africans.
quote: Many of those "darker" Egyptians are former military recruits Khedive Mohamed Ali brought back from his campaign in Sudan. They somewhat mixed with Saeedis but you can generally see how those "darker" 'Egyptians' have segregated themselves.
Are you in effect saying that any dark person you see in Egypt has to be a Sudanese?
quote:
Humorously what many Cairnes like to forget is all those Foreigners from Turkey, Greece, and Armenia also segregated themselves. Not many Egyptians in the major cities are actually as mixed as they would like to believe. They like to claim they have foreign blood prior to the 52' revolution when in fact their family didn't move to Cairo until after 62'.
Actually genetics backs them on this. Many in the Delta region do in fact have foreign ancestry from outside of the continent.
quote: Why can't you AE and Egyptology nuts be satisfied with the Pharaohs being African? Why do you need modern Egyptians to be as black as you?
This is red herring. You haven't heard from members of the site you mentioned enforce "blackness" on modern Egyptians, nor is it something to be satisfied or not satisfied with. However, if they are to consider themselves "Egyptians", then that automatically comes with the identifier that they be "Africans" as well. That is a fact; the fantasy would be what you are proposing: that they relinquish being "African"; that is next to impossible, as long as they consider themselves natives of an African territory. This is not rocket science.
On another note, you are in effect saying that modern Egyptian are foreigners, since you qualify "Pharaohs being African", which I suppose you equate with "being black", but not modern Egyptians. And if you are not doing that, then you are contradicting your earlier position about many modern Egyptians not having foreign heritage from outside the continent.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Slave comes from the word slav, defining a European people. If enslavement of people is the reason to be racist and generalize people into a group to be hated, then this should start with 'white people'. Egyptians should hate 'white people' even more than they do blacks, on the basis of this. And the idea of Egyptians of not having been enslaved is funny, considering that they have no identity of their own. How's that not being a slave?
Egyptians have defined their own ethnic identity.
You cannot claim the the white man has brainwashed them because they don't consider themselves Africans as you'd like them to.
You claim the white man has forced an identity upon the Egyptians and yet you want to do the exact same thing.
Slavery is ownership of another human being to work for free.
Slavery and identity are not the same concept.
I suppose your next demand is Egyptians go back to ancient Pharaonic belief and be pagans instead of Muslims and Copts.
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: This is red herring. You haven't heard from members of the site you mentioned enforce "blackness" on modern Egyptians, nor is it something to be satisfied or not satisfied with. However, if they are to consider themselves "Egyptians", then that automatically comes with the identifier that they be "Africans" as well. That is a fact; the fantasy would be what you are proposing: that they relinquish being "African"; that is next to impossible, as long as they consider themselves natives of an African territory. This is not rocket science.
On another note, you are in effect saying that modern Egyptian are foreigners, since you qualify "Pharaohs being African", which I suppose you equate with "being black", but not modern Egyptians. And if you are not doing that, then you are contradicting your earlier position about many modern Egyptians not having foreign heritage from outside the continent.
What makes you assume Pharaohs intermarried, let alone pro-created with the masses?
Pharaonic dynasties when they fell often were executed, all of them.
I won't go back and look but its been the subject of megathreads that the Pharaohs came, conquered and were of a "superior blackness" than the Egyptians. That the Royalty and the common Egyptians were two distinct groups. In addition to all those whacky threads "Pharaohs were Somali, Pharaohs were Ethiopians".
I don't want to get into a protracted discussion of what I find and my Egyptian friends find complete non-sense.
Why can't Africans in the west accept Egyptians for who they are today and not try to turn them into loinclothe subjects?
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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You cannot claim the the white man has brainwashed them because they don't consider themselves Africans as you'd like them to.
You claim the white man has forced an identity upon the Egyptians and yet you want to do the exact same thing.
Slavery is ownership of another human being to work for free.
Slavery and identity are not the same concept.
I suppose your next demand is Egyptians go back to ancient Pharaonic belief and be pagans instead of Muslims and Copts.
Egyptians calling themselves Arabs, i.e. after a foreign people, is defining "their own identity? Explain how this is rational thinking.
Your charge that I want to force an identity on Egyptians is a figment of your imagination. Your charge about 'white people' forcing an identity is equally bunk. I merely pointed out the fact that Egypt had a distinguished history, which consists of an identity that is natural and unique to Egypt. That identity sure in hell, was not "Arab". Disagree? If so, on what grounds?
Today Egyptians don't even have a language that is unique to them. Once upon a time, Egyptic was the natural language of the territory.
Yes, slavery as we understand the term, is the ownership of a fellow human being by another human being. This tradition starts with Europeans being slaves, if anything.
You are missing the point, if you are confusing my position about slavery vs. identity: the point is, slaves are stripped of their own identity and free-will; rather, they are made to take on a new identity and adopt culture that is defined by their masters. Unless you are here to convince me that totally relinquishing their native tongue and culture is not slavery, I'm not sure how such an event doesn't basically constitute slavery?
Your supposition at the end of your note is willful ignorance on your part. I don't demand anything; I merely state facts, which are these:
1)Egyptians have no identity of their own
2)They don't even have a language of their own.
3)They live in Africa, and call themselves natives of the land. That should render them Africans. You on the other hand, says that they should call themselves natives of African territory, but that they stop being African. Tell me that you are bright enough to see the strangeness of your position here!
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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What makes you assume Pharaohs intermarried, let alone pro-created with the masses?
Correction: You manufactured the thinking you are projecting onto me. You made a statement about Pharaohs, and I quoted you on it. If you want to take back what you said about Pharoahs, that's fine; just don't manufacture claims and pin them on me. There is this concept called "quoting" people; you should try it.
quote: Pharaonic dynasties when they fell often were executed, all of them.
And this has what relevance specifically? Additionally, what is this story based on?
quote: I won't go back and look but its been the subject of megathreads that the Pharaohs came, conquered and were of a "superior blackness" than the Egyptians.
Unless you can provide the primary source of this, I'd have to conclude that this is another stuff you just manufactured to help you maneuver with an ideological position that cannot be defended.
quote: That the Royalty and the common Egyptians were two distinct groups.
This absolutely doesn't sound like something that would regularly be pushed here; are you sure this is not just another of your imagination? No, then a source would suffice.
quote: In addition to all those whacky threads "Pharaohs were Somali, Pharaohs were Ethiopians".
Again, this is news to me; and believe me, I frequent this site. A *few* individuals say that the ancient Egyptians were descendants of the people you mentioned. Is this what you were confusing with the above?
quote:
I don't want to get into a protracted discussion of what I find and my Egyptian friends find complete non-sense.
Well then, don't manufacture things; because if you do, you will definitely be called on to provide primary sources for fishy claims.
quote: Why can't Africans in the west accept Egyptians for who they are today and not try to turn them into loinclothe subjects?
Why can't you provide sources for this, before press strange frivolous charges against faceless and nameless "Africans in the west"?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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What makes you assume Pharaohs intermarried, let alone pro-created with the masses?
Correction: You manufactured the thinking you are projecting onto me. You made a statement about Pharaohs, and I quoted you on it. If you want to take back what you said about Pharoahs, that's fine; just don't manufacture claims and pin them on me. There is this concept called "quoting" people; you should try it.
quote: Pharaonic dynasties when they fell often were executed, all of them.
And this has what relevance specifically? Additionally, what is this story based on?
[/QUOTE]
quote: I won't go back and look but its been the subject of megathreads that the Pharaohs came, conquered and were of a "superior blackness" than the Egyptians.
Unless you can provide the primary source of this, I'd have to conclude that this is another stuff you just manufactured to help you maneuver with an ideological position that cannot be defended.
quote: That the Royalty and the common Egyptians were two distinct groups.
This absolutely doesn't sound like something that would regularly be pushed here; are you sure this is not just another of your imagination? No, then a source would suffice.
quote: In addition to all those whacky threads "Pharaohs were Somali, Pharaohs were Ethiopians".
Again, this is news to me; and believe me, I frequent this site. A *few* individuals say that the ancient Egyptians were descendants of the people you mentioned. Is this what you were confusing with the above?
quote:
I don't want to get into a protracted discussion of what I find and my Egyptian friends find complete non-sense.
Well then, don't manufacture things; because if you do, you will definitely be called on to provide primary sources for fishy claims.
quote: Why can't Africans in the west accept Egyptians for who they are today and not try to turn them into loinclothe subjects?
Why can't you provide sources for this, before press strange frivolous charges against faceless and nameless "Africans in the west"? [/QUOTE]
1. I never stated this was one of your claims. I stated it was a pushed agenda on a megathread you guys churn out.
With all that manufactured evidence by conspiracy nuts that have no official academic standing.
2. This is based on a comment by an actual Egyptian during one of those very long megathreads.
3. Again this was posted by one of your own race-conspiracy nuts in a mega thread.
Explorer you've been around here a very long time, and you've been involved with all these megathreads.
4. When I feel like it. In the meantime I'd like to see a some legwork out of you. Show me proof within these burials and scribe accounts how at the end of a dynasty the royal mummies didn't end. Plus the confiscation of properties/wealth. Its not like they were sent into exile or allowed to retire.
5. You are right it wouldn't be pushed around here. But if you've noticed royalty weren't just royalty, they were Gods. Gods don't mix with mere mortals nor do they ****. Ancient Egyptian mythology is lax on Divine and Mortal bumping privates and producing sprog. Leave that to the Greeks and Romans. Egyptian mythology is very seperate between Divine and mortals yet there might be a few references, but it wouldn't involve main dieties.
6. Nope there are East Africans who confuse the Nile water drama with Ancient Egypt. Occassionally they leak into the other sections of ES. I notice, actually alot of the sugarmamas notice.
7. Not manufacturing things. I can prove it, actually I have thought about asking the Ministry of Antiquities to debunk alot of the crap that oozes through these threads.
If Africans or African Americans in the west could get over this insistant need to view themselves as Ancient Egyptians. Then they might get over their resistance and fear of Muslim Arab Egypt and actually take time to visit Egypt.
African Americans assume it will be "coming home" when they visit Egypt. Then after time spent investigating they learn Egypt is more Arab than it is African. They are turned off.
If African Americans could develop a healthy respect for the fact that 3,500 years is an very long time and that Egypt has not what it was even 2,000 years ago then possibly African Americans could enjoy Egypt for Egypt being Egyptian.
Not a paradise promised by civil rights leaders.
Its about time conspiracy nuts move on. Sugarmamas move on and allow their yummy brown boys to enjoy new opportunties and freedoms.
Its time for African Americans to respect Egypt for what Egypt is today. And for foreign old ladies to enjoy Egypt for what it was 3,5000 years ago and not force the young egyguys into necrophilia.
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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quote:b]Why can't you AE and Egyptology nuts be satisfied with the Pharaohs being African? Why do you need modern Egyptians to be as black as you?[/b]
.
Just a stupid comment. I was responding to the post. Point is that Egyptians willingly take part in African continental athletic events--including the very popular football tournament called "The African Nations Cup".
And it is a fact: Egyptians who are darker tend to see themselves as Africans more than the settlers up North. One ironical fact though: white South Africans, who are much more European in phenotype and genetics than the coastal Egyptians(Cairo, Alexandria) are all clamouring to be called "white Africans" while the hybridised populations of North Africa, South African "Coloureds", and South African Indians are uncomfortable with such appellations. It really is a LOL situation.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: Just a stupid comment. I was responding to the post. Point is that Egyptians willingly take part in African continental athletic events--including the very popular football tournament called "The African Nations Cup".
And it is a fact: Egyptians who are darker tend to see themselves as Africans more than the settlers up North.
What a minute.
"Settlers up North"? You mean the Deltans are less Egyptian than the saaedis?
Khedive M Ali brought back tons of Sudanese to settle upper Egypt, it was part of their pay for service.
These are the settlers.
The Deltans are as Egyptian as the Saeedis.
Lamin what nationality are you?
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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Just silly comments again. Maybe you don't know the history of Egypt after it disintegrated post the Persian invasions. Greeks, Romans, West Asian Arabs, Turks, smallr assortments of modern Greeks, French and British all flooded in to partake of that ancient territory. Just like places such as South Africa and Mexico. And my nationality? You are not an immigration border officer--as far as I can see. LOL. A nonsense non-sequitur question again.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: Just silly comments again. Maybe you don't know the history of Egypt after it disintegrated post the Persian invasions. Greeks, Romans, West Asian Arabs, Turks, smallr assortments of modern Greeks, French and British all flooded in to partake of that ancient territory. Just like places such as South Africa and Mexico. And my nationality? You are not an immigration border officer--as far as I can see. LOL. A nonsense non-sequitur question again.
In otherwords you don't appreciate it when the white man tells you your history, or obliterates it.
Why do you feel its okay for you a non-Egyptian to inform the Egyptians what their ethnicity is?
You can avoid the question and avoid the details I gave. But avoiding the fact you chose to commit the same racist history rearranging you are so infuriated at the "whites" for is just beyond your understanding.
Let the Egyptians decide what their racial or ethnic history is. Its not your right.
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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Your reply posts are just completely off the mark. Proof of lack of reasoning skills. Or maybe you are just not very bright. OK, I give up--until you post something coherent.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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1. I never stated this was one of your claims. I stated it was a pushed agenda on a megathread you guys churn out.
Well, then cite the source of said claim! You've been around for a while, and you still haven't gotten it, that causal claims aren't taken at face value. In this site, sourced material dominates, not hearsay or personal feelings or opinions. HOWEVER, we know this is just another face-saving antic of your's, because you specifically directed your assumption onto me, and nobody else. Now you are saying that you got the idea from some undefined thread. And your uncultured behavior of collectivizing people here with hollow descriptions like "you guys", "conspiracy nuts" or "you AE and Egyptology nuts" and assigning them to questionable claims is not a working strategy. Come up with an effective one. It would be as hollow as my hypothetical branding you as "you ES Living in Egypt or ES Politics or ES Religion nuts".
quote:
With all that manufactured evidence by conspiracy nuts that have no official academic standing.
Examples? Without examples, ironically you are looking to be the conspiracy nut out here, no?
quote: 2. This is based on a comment by an actual Egyptian during one of those very long megathreads.
"This" is what? I can't understand much of the things you say, because you sound incoherent. None of your stuff is sourced, nor the subject and would-be proponents specified, and you erratically switch from the subject of what you are quoting, and instead, respond to another unrelated matter. You have no sense of direction in a debate.
quote: 3. Again this was posted by one of your own race-conspiracy nuts in a mega thread.
Again, what you are responding to, I can only guess. But rest assured whatever it was, you were asked to provide a primary source, which you've failed to provide in the above. I'm a correct on this?
quote: Explorer you've been around here a very long time, and you've been involved with all these megathreads.
That's a half-truth. Truth: I'm a veteran of ES forums. Lie: That I'm involved in all threads -- correction: I'm very selective about the topics I respond to. So, I don't keep track nor do I have photographic memory of every discussion. Furthermore, much of your charges about discussions here are generally out of character, even for those discussions/threads that I may be aware of. This makes it necessary for you to back yourself up.
quote: 4. When I feel like it.
See, this is what we've been dealing with, your personal "feelings" instead of verifiable facts. To you, your personal feeling may have some meaning, but it is next to worthless than a used restroom paper by the scientific-oriented standards upheld here. I fear that you may have picked upon more than you can handle, when you decided to interject the ongoing discussion.
quote: In the meantime I'd like to see a some legwork out of you.
You are the one making out-of-character charges against nameless posters here, whom you strangely collectivize. I don't see how that renders me, vs. you, the ideal candidate to do "some legwork".
quote: Show me proof within these burials and scribe accounts how at the end of a dynasty the royal mummies didn't end.
Plus the confiscation of properties/wealth. Its not like they were sent into exile or allowed to retire.
Your request doesn't even make sense to me. "royal mummies didn't end", what's that supposed to mean? Translate it into English.
quote: 5. You are right it wouldn't be pushed around here.
That's all the more reason your feet has to be held to fire, because your charges are generally out of character, just like the one you are now admitting to. Citing your primary sources, and directing it to specified authors instead of oddly collectivizing people, is very imperative!
quote: But if you've noticed royalty weren't just royalty, they were Gods. Gods don't mix with mere mortals nor do they ****.
I don't see how this renders the Pharaohs a bunch of foreigners presiding over locals, which is what you are proposing, and what you were initially ascribing to unnamed posters as a consensus viewpoint. That aside, your assessment about ancient Egyptian royalty is false. Pharaohs did in fact marry non-royalty partners from the general population, and in some cases, even brought in females from overseas. The only caveat was, that the reigning Pharaoh had to have legitimacy via a heiress queen, amongst his queens. The hieress queen may or may not be just a symbolic wife.
You've also managed to oversimplify the Egyptian concept of deity; the Pharaohs were not seen as supernatural being per se. Rather, they were seen as symbolic personification or just another manifestation of the supreme beings ability to bring law and order to an otherwise lawless world.
quote:
6. Nope there are East Africans who confuse the Nile water drama with Ancient Egypt. Occassionally they leak into the other sections of ES. I notice, actually alot of the sugarmamas notice.
???
We are talking about your questionable charge that people here advocate some weird theory about some foreign Ethiopian or Somalian Pharaohs presiding over Egyptian locals, whom were presumably not either Ethiopians or Somalians. This is the first I'm hearing this theory; from you!
quote: 7. Not manufacturing things. I can prove it, actually I have thought about asking the Ministry of Antiquities to debunk alot of the crap that oozes through these threads.
Then you know what to do: cite the source, and then refute it!
quote: If Africans or African Americans in the west could get over this insistant need to view themselves as Ancient Egyptians.
Another matter you need to verify with primary sources.
quote: Then they might get over their resistance and fear of Muslim Arab Egypt and actually take time to visit Egypt.
Your assessment carries no meaning and rings hollow, if not purely an emotional feeling of wishful thinking, because none of this stuff is ever backed up by you. You are in for a reality check, if you assume that your words can be passed here for truth at face value.
quote:
African Americans assume it will be "coming home" when they visit Egypt. Then after time spent investigating they learn Egypt is more Arab than it is African. They are turned off.
More unverifiable personal opinionatedness. The only thing that potentially makes sense up there, is that modern Egypt could well be more Arabic than African; should you deem this true, then you are reinforcing the point I made earlier, which seemed to have struck a nerve in you, that Egyptians today have no identity of their own. Arabic identity is someone else's identity, not the authentic Nile Valley one.
quote: If African Americans could develop a healthy respect for the fact that 3,500 years is an very long time and that Egypt has not what it was even 2,000 years ago then possibly African Americans could enjoy Egypt for Egypt being Egyptian.
You go on and on with unverifiable rambling about African Americans, which I'm not even sure has to do with this board, yet it is Europeans who seem to be over-infatuated with Nile Valley civilization, so much so that they've even come up with theories that these were the long lost European brethrens, and go around wearing loincloths which look strange against their pale skins, along with eye make up, both in make-believe movies and daily life. This sort of behavior is rare in African American communities. A European should be the last person to be charging African Americans with being gratuitously over-excited about a culture that is apparently foreign to their own. When it comes to ancient Egyptians, Europeans can be besides themselves, almost like flirting school girls. Europeans are so obsessed with ancient Egypt, that even common sense ceases to flow into their brains; e.g. African territory no longer becomes African, and African people no longer become Africans...kind'a like what you've been saying here.
If I were to turn the table, and say, Greece is not European; you Europeans would look at me as though I were from a mental asylum. Yet you expect to be treated like normal-functioning human beings when you use similarly-bizarre reasoning towards African affairs.
quote: Not a paradise promised by civil rights leaders.
Its about time conspiracy nuts move on. Sugarmamas move on and allow their yummy brown boys to enjoy new opportunties and freedoms.
...to move on, so that you can finally enjoy a "European ancient Egypt", correct? And you say who are the conspiracy nuts?
quote: Its time for African Americans to respect Egypt for what Egypt is today. And for foreign old ladies to enjoy Egypt for what it was 3,5000 years ago and not force the young egyguys into necrophilia.
Egypt is accepted for what it is; you are the one who seems very uncomfortable with this fact -- that is to say, that Egypt today has no identity, or language for that matter, of their own. No African American has forced Egyptians to switch from an original identity and culture to being copycats of Arabs, they are doing that on their own.
Egyptians have a well-established history that it is fairly antecedent to the Arabic heritage; it makes no sense for a people with such elaborate antiquated history, to allow their own identity to be masked by some new foreign identity. This is like saying it makes sense for Greeks to exchange their Greek heritage for a British or Swedish identity, or yet, for Afghanistan identity. You are in total denial of this reality; the question is why! My guess is that, it is because you want to enforce your own perception of Egyptians, which is to better relate them to yourself, and distance them from the land which they are a part of -- i.e. Africa.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by metinoot: [QUOTE]Originally posted by metinoot:
Khedive M Ali brought back tons of Sudanese to settle upper Egypt, it was part of their pay for service.
These are the settlers.
I've asked you earlier to clarify and validate any insinuation that dark-skinned Egyptians are Sudanese settler groups. You avoided the question, and now, back to insinuating the same. How rational is that?
quote: The Deltans are as Egyptian as the Saeedis.
Settler Egyptian communities and Egyptians with more foreign genealogical heritage are not "Egyptian" in the same sense as Egyptians with less foreign genealogical heritage.
quote: Let the Egyptians decide what their racial or ethnic history is. Its not your right.
You've already been told what many modern Egyptians have decided: Taking on a foreign-imposed identity -- the Arabic identity! It is you who hasn't accepted this fact.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
Metinoot seems to be confused, I don't think she realizes it yet.
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
Why can't you AE and Egyptology nuts be satisfied with the Pharaohs being African? Why do you need modern Egyptians to be as black as you?
^^^^ No one here is trying to make Modern Egyptians African who are mixed with non Africans esp. those from the Delta.
Fact is there is still a remnent in Egypt who CAN'T deny their Africaness, what a bunch of Occupiers and Invaders feel means nothing to me.
You even admit that the Ancient Egyptians were African more so than the Modern Egyptian. This is the purpose of this forum to actually prove that, unlike what many claim, Ancient and Modern Egypt were two different cultures. One Native to African Soil, the other the Complete opposite.
Just an example in ancient Egypt the South(Upper Egypt) was held in high respect. Majority of the Phraros who united the two lands were Southerners. Now the Southerners live in abject poverty and suffer from ethnic stereotypes.
Metinoot said..
Khedive M Ali brought back tons of Sudanese to settle upper Egypt, it was part of their pay for service.
The So called Sudanese are Africans like the Saeedi and Genetically and Culturally the Closest to The Egyptians. This is akin to saying a Bunch of Englishmen came into to Ireland mixed with the Rual Irish and made them less Irish...??? Despite Cultural differences the Irish and the English are blood brothers same goes for Nubians and Egyptians.
Mixture with Turks, Greeks, French etc as with the case in the Delta is a who different matter. As non of these people are Genetically or Culturally tied to the Nile Valley.
African Americans assume it will be "coming home" when they visit Egypt. Then after time spent investigating they learn Egypt is more Arab than it is African. They are turned off.
LOL, How Pathetic!!! You say this as it a triumph as opposed to African Americans with your snide remarks about African Americans and slavery. You Egyptians gave up your identity, language, and culture for a Bunch of Savages who only became literate in the 7th Century..LOL.
You Egyptians could not even read and write the Heiroglyphs your supposed Forefathers built and needed the whiteman to come in and stop you all from Further Defacing the Ancient Monuments.
That is the definition of a slave, Hell at least my Forefathers were physically stripped of our culture on Foreign soil, as opposed in our homelands.
Imagine, ancient Egyptian Travelling to some no man's land Worshiping a Rock in the Middle of a Desert with a Bunch of Stinking Savage Illiterates, adopting the language and upholding these people's tribes as Holy.
The Nerve...!! The Pharos are rolling in their Pyramids and tombs..
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:You are asking Egyptians to identify themselves as minorities which the majority definately doesn't consider themselves to be African
If you really paid attention you would have learned that the language you speak, Arabic, is one branch of the Semitic family, which in turn is part of the Afro-Asiatic language super family which in fact arose in Africa. Your umbrage at being associated with Africa is a result of a brain washing that's so deep that you wear it with pride.
The Ancient Egyptians on the other hand said that the very gods resided in Africa.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
^^^^ Exactly check out this Ignorant remark below....
Metinoot wrote: Not a paradise promised by civil rights leaders.
Tell me what the Civil Rights has to do with Ancient Egypt being African??
Maybe you mean African American Leaders, or afrocentric Writers?? Most of the Civil Rights leaders are dead or too old to care about Egypt, and last I checked non of the Civil Rights leader said anything about Egypt, unless you can provide the evidence...A speech perhaps.
Maybe you mean Jesse Jackson??? Did you read him promising us Slaves in America a Paradise in Egypt?? Or is this something you pick up from Racist whites Americans who are politcally against Civil Rights..
@ Apoco, its not brainwashing its a result of foreign identity that is at odds with the African Culture of the Ancient Egyptians. She will even spout racist rhetoric all to flee from an African Identity.
No One wan't them to be Africans, Don't want you don't need you. Just stop pretending that you all are the Direct decendants of the Ancients. Be consistant Claim Arab Identity when it comes to History, Relinquish the Ancient Egyptians(AFRICAN) Identity to the Real Egyptians.(Those in the South and Norther Sudan)
Stop claiming African identity when it suits you all.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
^^^Meetinoot is merely expressing a generalized resentment and distaste for anything black, African, or African American. It's not thought that's being expressed it's raw emotional reflex. That why it lacks coherence, rationality, or specificity.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Jari, metinoot is not an Egyptian. She is actually of European descent, and used to go by the name Sonomod.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
^^^^ The fact still stands that nowadays Egyptians will claim to be Arabs 95% of the time but turn around and claim the African Culture of ancient Egypt. This makes no sense, but I understand, Majority of People not just Egyptians see Africa as a backwater. If truth be told majority of Arab Egyptians see the Ancient Egyptians as a Back-Water, I.E Animal Headed Gods, Ancestor Worship, Voodoo Type Practices, Medicine men, Nudity or scant clothing, Paganism, ideas such as God Kings, Maat, Astrology, Sun Worship, Goddess Worship etc was quite common. Plus Egypt was a Maternal, Maat demanded the balance of Masculine and Feminin which is why Women had so much rights. I doubt if the Whiteman and African American cared so much about Ancient Egypt, Majority of Modern Egyptians would'nt give two Sh#ts about Ancient Egypt and they would'nt think twice about Dismantling and and Destroying the Monuments and Temples.
They only care now because blacks are so facinated with Ancient Egypt.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Just thought you might want to get an idea of whom you are dealing with, because her posts may misleadingly come off as another "anti-black" Egyptian personality at work, inciting gratuitous negative reactions to modern Egyptians.
The contempt towards things Ancient Egyptian comes largely from the hold Islam, and perhaps other "Abrahamic" religions, have had in Egypt. Ancient Egyptians would now be dismissed as Khafirs, a name that interestingly derives from a name of an Egyptian Pharaoh!
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
Well I thought Metinoot was Jewish but she still acts as a spokeperson for Egyptians.
LOL, not only Khafirs, but the Ancient Khafirs ofthe Nile would have Defended Km.t to the death and would have despised Muhammed. I Imagine had Muhammed came during the Time of Thutmosis or Ramses he would have been depicted as such...
"Don't fear the vile Asiatic, he is after all an Asiatic"
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Metinoot is not Egyptian but feels she speaks for most Egyptians. She doesn't know much about ancient or modern Egyptian history. She makes incorrect claims about Khedevie Ishmal'i settling Sudanese soldiers in Upper Egypt. Therefore she tries to invalidate the heritage of the Sa3eedi people in Upper Egypt. She also does not realize that both Coptic Egyptians and Muslim Egyptians around Luxor and Aswan look the same and are darker than the average Delta Egyptian.
Also she does not realize that Egypt and Sudan was once one country united.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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You are asking Egyptians to identify themselves as minorities which the majority definately doesn't consider themselves to be African.
Why can't you AE and Egyptology nuts be satisfied with the Pharaohs being African? Why do you need modern Egyptians to be as black as you?
I can agree with what you've said though there are plenty Egyptians blacker than I.
quote:Problem with that thinking is the bulk of the Egyptian population is from the Delta.
while in ancient times it was densest in Upper and then Middle Egypt. Agreed again. Cairo i believe didn't even exist until sometime into the Current Era (C.E., a.k.a. A.D., "After Death").
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Unfortunately Arab-Turkish imperialism and especially Western European imperialism has played a large role in the negative perception of black African identity.
Well that and history.
No Egyptians were brought to the Americas on slave ships.
Its not "brainwashing" is just historical fact.
Slave comes from the word slav, defining a European people. If enslavement of people is the reason to be racist and generalize people into a group to be hated, then this should start with 'white people'. Egyptians should hate 'white people' even more than they do blacks, on the basis of this. And the idea of Egyptians of not having been enslaved is funny, considering that they have no identity of their own. How's that not being a slave?
Not to mention Turks which assumed all manner of slave roles from Egypt to the Mali Empire and even as millitary slaves eventually conquered Egypt.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
I think a lot of the blame for misidentify can be put on lack of education. If their weren't buffoons like Zahi Hawaas in charge of the ancient remnants of Egypt. The whole idea of whether Ancient Egypt was African or not would be out the picture. Before Gamal Abdul Nasser Pan arabism regime.. Egyptians veiwed themselves different to the Arab nations of the middle east. The population at that time was around 40 million, majority of whom were Falahien. Now the population of Eygpt is over 100 million. Modern Egypt is now home to a melting pot of people who make conclusion of their identity based of deductive reasoning. For example Africa=Black..Light skin=not black.. you get the point.
Ignorance due to lack of education of the subject matter; in addition to mans self proppeled desire to feel superior and avoid the stigma of weakness; has created this sensation for alienation from the land they inhabit. As if land was a chess pieces that can be moved around. If you want the truth in any matter you look for the oppressed. "The truth is with the oppressed". Dark skin has been looked down upon by the haughtiness of man. To cover up his insecurities, man would keep the truth hidden underneath his bed.
There are still many Egyptians out there who are proud of their African Heritage. Don't let your experiences with one or two Egyptians who feel otherwise change that.
Posts: 671 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Metinoot is not Egyptian but feels she speaks for most Egyptians. She doesn't know much about ancient or modern Egyptian history. She makes incorrect claims about Khedevie Ishmal'i settling Sudanese soldiers in Upper Egypt. Therefore she tries to invalidate the heritage of the Sa3eedi people in Upper Egypt. She also does not realize that both Coptic Egyptians and Muslim Egyptians around Luxor and Aswan look the same and are darker than the average Delta Egyptian.
Also she does not realize that Egypt and Sudan was once one country united.
Yes Metinoot makes a lot of claims about Egypt's history despite her ignorance of it. I think she needs to stick to her own European history, specifically Scandinavian history. Just because she's married to an Egyptian man doesn't make her an authority on Egyptian history, let alone being Egyptian makes one an authority. Hell, just look at the claims of an actual Egyptian so-called authority-- Hawass LOL
As for her claims of the pharaohs being African but not black, she obviously hasn't seen any portraits of the pharaohs.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Apocalypse: ^^^Meetinoot is merely expressing a generalized resentment and distaste for anything black, African, or African American. It's not thought that's being expressed it's raw emotional reflex. That why it lacks coherence, rationality, or specificity.
I'd say that's an excellent description of what has transpired.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by metinoot: If Africans or African Americans in the west could get over this insistant need to view themselves as Ancient Egyptians. Then they might get over their resistance and fear of Muslim Arab Egypt and actually take time to visit Egypt.
African Americans assume it will be "coming home" when they visit Egypt. Then after time spent investigating they learn Egypt is more Arab than it is African. They are turned off.
You are confused Sono. Egypt is a country in Africa. Think of it like Minnesota is a state IN USA. African Americans do not think of themselves as 'Ancient Egyptian' unless they are descended from Egypt, a COUNTRY in AFRICA. Most African Americans are from other countries in Africa, so why on earth would they think coming to Egypt is 'coming home'.
Egypt = Country - like Minnesota = State. Africa = continent - like USA, the big bit, the whole. It may be the 'state' and 'country' that's confusing you. Africa is not a 'country' like USA is a country.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:I'd say that's an excellent description of what has transpired.
Thanks Kalonji. I'm reminded of a song by the Djavan the great Afro-Brazilian jazz singer. The name of the song is Stephen's Kingdom, a beautiful song btw, and in it there is a line where he wonders: "how it came to be that black became the enemy." Good question.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by metinoot: If Africans or African Americans in the west could get over this insistant need to view themselves as Ancient Egyptians. Then they might get over their resistance and fear of Muslim Arab Egypt and actually take time to visit Egypt.
African Americans assume it will be "coming home" when they visit Egypt. Then after time spent investigating they learn Egypt is more Arab than it is African. They are turned off.
You are confused Sono. Egypt is a country in Africa. Think of it like Minnesota is a state IN USA. African Americans do not think of themselves as 'Ancient Egyptian' unless they are descended from Egypt, a COUNTRY in AFRICA. Most African Americans are from other countries in Africa, so why on earth would they think coming to Egypt is 'coming home'.
Egypt = Country - like Minnesota = State. Africa = continent - like USA, the big bit, the whole. It may be the 'state' and 'country' that's confusing you. Africa is not a 'country' like USA is a country.
Virginia is in North America not South America
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by metinoot: If Africans or African Americans in the west could get over this insistant need to view themselves as Ancient Egyptians. Then they might get over their resistance and fear of Muslim Arab Egypt and actually take time to visit Egypt.
African Americans assume it will be "coming home" when they visit Egypt. Then after time spent investigating they learn Egypt is more Arab than it is African. They are turned off.
You are confused Sono. Egypt is a country in Africa. Think of it like Minnesota is a state IN USA. African Americans do not think of themselves as 'Ancient Egyptian' unless they are descended from Egypt, a COUNTRY in AFRICA. Most African Americans are from other countries in Africa, so why on earth would they think coming to Egypt is 'coming home'.
Egypt = Country - like Minnesota = State. Africa = continent - like USA, the big bit, the whole. It may be the 'state' and 'country' that's confusing you. Africa is not a 'country' like USA is a country.
The population of Egypt is not 100 million. It's more like 80 million--approximately the same as Ethiopia. There is only one African country at this time with a population over 100 million. Nigeria. Next, it's Egypt and Ethiopia, followed by Congo, 70 million.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
^ Trust me its more then 80 million... its been 80 million in the CIA handbook for more then 20 years now. Including population of immigrants from neighboring African countries, it is more than 100 million or even beyond that.
Posts: 671 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by metinoot: If Africans or African Americans in the west could get over this insistant need to view themselves as Ancient Egyptians. Then they might get over their resistance and fear of Muslim Arab Egypt and actually take time to visit Egypt.
African Americans assume it will be "coming home" when they visit Egypt. Then after time spent investigating they learn Egypt is more Arab than it is African. They are turned off.
You are confused Sono. Egypt is a country in Africa. Think of it like Minnesota is a state IN USA. African Americans do not think of themselves as 'Ancient Egyptian' unless they are descended from Egypt, a COUNTRY in AFRICA. Most African Americans are from other countries in Africa, so why on earth would they think coming to Egypt is 'coming home'.
Egypt = Country - like Minnesota = State. Africa = continent - like USA, the big bit, the whole. It may be the 'state' and 'country' that's confusing you. Africa is not a 'country' like USA is a country.
Virginia is in North America not South America
Nobody mentioned Virginia
Minnesota same thing
Minnesota is in North America
not South America
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by metinoot: If Africans or African Americans in the west could get over this insistant need to view themselves as Ancient Egyptians. Then they might get over their resistance and fear of Muslim Arab Egypt and actually take time to visit Egypt.
African Americans assume it will be "coming home" when they visit Egypt. Then after time spent investigating they learn Egypt is more Arab than it is African. They are turned off.
You are confused Sono. Egypt is a country in Africa. Think of it like Minnesota is a state IN USA. African Americans do not think of themselves as 'Ancient Egyptian' unless they are descended from Egypt, a COUNTRY in AFRICA. Most African Americans are from other countries in Africa, so why on earth would they think coming to Egypt is 'coming home'.
Egypt = Country - like Minnesota = State. Africa = continent - like USA, the big bit, the whole. It may be the 'state' and 'country' that's confusing you. Africa is not a 'country' like USA is a country.
Virginia is in North America not South America
Nobody mentioned Virginia
Minnesota same thing
Minnesota is in North America
not South America
Same again, nobody said either were in South America. In fact South America or North America were not mentioned at all. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
^^^^ Thanks for your comments Ayisha!!
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: You are confused Sono. Egypt is a country in Africa. Think of it like Minnesota is a state IN USA. African Americans do not think of themselves as 'Ancient Egyptian' unless they are descended from Egypt, a COUNTRY in AFRICA. Most African Americans are from other countries in Africa, so why on earth would they think coming to Egypt is 'coming home'.
Egypt = Country - like Minnesota = State. Africa = continent - like USA, the big bit, the whole. It may be the 'state' and 'country' that's confusing you. Africa is not a 'country' like USA is a country. [/QB]
Nobody mentioned Minnesota why are you bringing that up. (troll behavior)
The difference between a country and a continent is that while they are both land areas a country is ruled by one government.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: You are confused Sono. Egypt is a country in Africa. Think of it like Minnesota is a state IN USA. African Americans do not think of themselves as 'Ancient Egyptian' unless they are descended from Egypt, a COUNTRY in AFRICA. Most African Americans are from other countries in Africa, so why on earth would they think coming to Egypt is 'coming home'.
Egypt = Country - like Minnesota = State. Africa = continent - like USA, the big bit, the whole. It may be the 'state' and 'country' that's confusing you. Africa is not a 'country' like USA is a country.
Nobody mentioned Minnesota why are you bringing that up.
The difference between a country and a continent is that while they are both land areas a country is ruled by one government. [/QB]
I was speaking to Metinoot, notice the quoted part? I was explaining the difference between country and continent to her in terms she can understand, she lives in Minnesota. Thank you, your comment may also help her grasp the difference too.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: ^Lioness is a "troll", likes to get rises out of people.
Thanks Whatbox, seems more civilized than our trolls, so far, equal lack of comprehension though
You're right and just some 411 but either Lioness is a sloth upstairs, it's on purpose, or it's a combination of the 2.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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