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The Root: Black Americans Don't Represent Egypt
by John McWhorter
February 10, 2011 John McWhorter is a frequent contributor to The Root. Only now am I becoming able to make peace with something that has nagged at me lately: I don't think of the protesters in Egypt as my brothers and sisters.
There, I said it.
I am heartened daily by their victories. If someone asked me to help in some way, I would do all I could. But I do not see the people in those streets as "my people."
Some would say that I am supposed to. But here's why I, at least, am no longer feeling a pang of guilt when I see photos of Tahrir Square and do not see the faces as comrades of mine.
Reason 1: We are to perceive the Egyptians as fellow "Africans," but designating people as culturally united simply because they share a landmass is dicey. Imagine the newspaper headline "Asians Found Adrift on Raft." We would be properly horrified at Chinese, Vietnamese and Sri Lankans being lumped together as one entity. Calling an Egyptian, a Senegalese and a Malagasy all one thing suffers from a similar problem. Spontaneously, most of us process Egypt as culturally a part of the Middle East — because it is.
Read A Different Opinion On The African American Responsibility Toward Egypt
Oh, but "black" Egypt was the source of the ancient Greeks' intellectual legacy? Well, for one thing, it wasn't (try here or here). And besides, the arrival of Islam in the seventh century made Egypt a culturally and demographically distinct place from the land of the pharaohs.
And the problem only gets worse when you really think about what it means to treat an Egyptian, a Senegalese, a Malagasy and a black man from Detroit all as one thing. Black Americans are descended from Africans, but my, it's been a while, hasn't it?
Some passages stick with you. In The Debt: What America Owes to Blacks, Randall Robinson described the media's downplaying of a pipeline explosion in Nigeria and despaired, "We don't know what happened to us and no one will tell us." "Us," says this black American writer from Virginia. It struck me: I am to sense the plight of Nigerians as immediately as I do the plight of black schoolchildren in Oakland, Calif.
My circle of empathy certainly has room for Nigerians and other people I don't know and have not lived among or even near. But I cannot pretend that they occupy the same inner circle of my empathy as do the people I have spent my life knowing — any more than a woman in Lagos is expected to be as starkly committed to what happens in Atlanta as she is to what happens in her own country.
In the same way, I cannot honestly process the Egyptians as "us." I doubt that most black Americans can, and I'm not sure there is anything wrong with that …
… or is there? Others remind us that Egypt was once a hub of anti-colonialism in the name of struggling peoples worldwide. There was an intoxicating sense of potential in the idea of all the world's peoples who are struggling under the colonialist yoke banding together to bring on a new day.
Another passage that sticks with me: Maya Angelou, in the fourth installment of her autobiography series, The Heart of a Woman, being whisked into Cairo in a cab with her son at the height of the pan-Third World ideology. Maya and Guy are so elated to be there that they look out the windows and just laugh and laugh. I love that scene — and instances of black Americans of that era regularly lending support to people of color resisting oppression. Another good scene: Adam Clayton Powell Jr. at the Third World Conference in Bandung, Indonesia, in 1955, schooling pro-colonialist reporters on how the oppression in places like India was as unforgivable as what was then happening in the American South (he describes it best in this book).
What happened to that sentiment? Well, we know, don't we?
Reason 2: Black America overcame. Wait, wait — I know, not completely, by any means. But when Egyptians tell the press that an educated middle-class person has no significant chances in life there, who among us can say that this is the black American plight today — as opposed to what it was for all but a sliver in 1955?
Who can honestly say that poor black people are poor because of efforts as nakedly oppressive as those of the Mubarak regime? Inevitably, then, black Americans' sense of solidarity with those suffering from concrete, brutal subjugation — rather than the more abstract bugbear of "institutional racism" — will not be as immediate and spontaneous as it was more than half a century ago.
Will we have no interest at all in what is going on in Egypt? Of course not. But we return to that circle of empathy. Its expansion is a mark of human advancement — from family, to city, to nation — but extending it beyond national or cultural boundaries is a stretch.
Philosophers have torn their hair out for centuries trying to figure out how we will achieve a pan-human commitment, and upon what basis. We pull it off for a spell, but it's awfully hard to sustain. Just ask international aid agencies after tragedies such as the earthquake in Haiti.
As such, the question with Egypt becomes, can we extend our circle of empathy to the past? Maybe we can teach ourselves to acknowledge that black Americans once suffered the same way that Egyptians do now, and that we were once comrades with them in a very concrete way. But can we feel this, intimately and open-endedly, as human beings leading busy lives in conjunction with our nearest and dearest? Especially when, for that matter, even in the present, Egyptians — Arabic-speaking Muslims of the Middle Eastern orbit — are so culturally distant from black Americans as well as from our sub-Saharan ancestors?
I feel them, the Egyptians throwing off the yoke. But I feel them just as I felt the protesters in Iran two summers ago, or the ones in Thailand last year. Or as I would feel the Solidarnosc protesters in Poland if that were happening now. But are the Egyptians my brothers? That I do not feel. They are, to me, people. I don't think it's wrong for me or any other black person to feel that way.Posts: 422 | From: Leave No Stone Unturned! | Registered: Feb 2011
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^ NE Africans are to West Sub-Saharan Africans what Chinese people are to Samoans.
But African Americans are not all West Sub-Saharan Africans. There are many of us that do feel a kin to NE Africans, at least the indigenous ones, both culturally and in appearance.
For example, my Grandfather looks exactly like Anwar Sadat and my Aunt has typical Egyptian features.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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^ I would think NE Africans have a much greater connection to sub-Saharans than Chinese and Samoans (for example, see: Frigi et al., 2010). Not to mentioned the Nile Valley was populated by sub-Saharan Africans. So, I don't think that is the best comparison...
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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I have no idea what the point of this article is. Maybe the author is just trying to tell his white patrons--especially the Jewish ones--that he is American through and through. But most black Americans are already like that--through and through. Again, I say most--not all.
But the article brings up some interesting questions about spheres of allegiances.
If 5 Jews are killed in Argentina then the whole Jewish world is alerted. If Somali pirates kidnap and kill a few whites then the w hole world is also alerted. Is there a basis for this?
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^^Notice how, in the article, the author says the arrival in Islam made a culturally and demographically distinct place. Before that, he only says that he does not view modern Egyptian protestors as his "brothers and sisters". Who's to say what he felt of ancient Egypt, as he says demographically and culturally modern Egyptians are not the same. He speaks specifically on his feelings to modern inhabitants of Egypt, which he notes is not the same as the land of the pharaohs.
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ NE Africans are to West Sub-Saharan Africans what Chinese people are to Samoans.
But African Americans are not all West Sub-Saharan Africans. There are many of us that do feel a kin to NE Africans, at least the indigenous ones, both culturally and in appearance.
For example, my Grandfather looks exactly like Anwar Sadat and my Aunt has typical Egyptian features.
There is nothing like typical Egyptian features, your grandfather was most probably mixed with European blood too, that has NOTHING to do with Egypt or NE Africa - You and your family are off West African descent and most probably European as well, self hatred is very hurtful
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osirion - Just WHERE do you get your nonsense?
Please tell us in what way: "NE Africans are to West Sub-Saharan Africans what Chinese people are to Samoans."
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quote:Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
Frigi et al.
Human Biology
August 2010 (82:4)
Abstract
Our objective is to highlight the age of sub-Saharan gene flows in North Africa and particularly in Tunisia. Therefore we analyzed in a broad phylogeographic context sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroups of Tunisian Berber populations considered representative of ancient settlement. More than 2,000 sequences were collected from the literature, and networks were constructed. The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago. Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa. The present work suggests that sub-Saharan contributions to North Africa have experienced several complex population processes after the occupation of the region by anatomically modern humans. Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
Our findings are in accordance with other studies on Y-chromosome markers that have shown that the predominant Y-chromosome lineage in Berber communities is the subhaplogroup E1b1b1b (E-M81), which emerged in Africa, is specific to North African populations, and is almost absent in Europe, except in Iberia (Spain and Portugal) and Sicily. [b]Molecular studies on the Y chromosome in North Africa are interpreted as indicating that the southern part of Africa, namely, the Horn/East Africa, was a major source of population in the Nile Valley and northwest Africa after the Last Glacial Maximum, with some migration into the Near East and southern Europe (Bosch et al. 2001; Underhill et al. 2001). Hence, contrary to the suggestion that mtDNA haplogroups were introduced mostly from Iberia, it seems that Y-chromosome markers have an eastern African origin with an ancient local evolution in North Africa. These observations are in agreement with the proposal that the ancient communities ancestral in language to more recent Berber communities absorbed a lot of females from the existing pre-Holocene populations. This would indicate that the North African populations arose from admixture rather than from local evolution, leading to an intermediate genetic structure between eastern sub-Saharan Africans and Eurasians.
So, Osirion, your claim of sub-Saharans being to north Africans what Samoans are to Chinese will have to be clarified.
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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I think he is a confused black man that needs a passport and a trip to Egypt(boundaries outside Cairo). His outlook is European bred. To feed into his nonsense is to feed into the nonsense of Euro-centric hogwash.
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quote:I think he is a confused black man that needs a passport and a trip to Egypt(boundaries outside Cairo). His outlook is European bred. To feed into his nonsense is to feed into the nonsense of Euro-centric hogwash.
If you mean Osirion, than I definitely think he makes some stupid comments, which do make him seem confused
quote:Originally posted by Zioncity Question what is the relevance of this article as far as Egypt or its history is concerned?
None at all. The author only explains his feelings on the modern Egyptian people whom he says are not his "brothers". He does say this:
quote:Oh, but "black" Egypt was the source of the ancient Greeks' intellectual legacy? Well, for one thing, it wasn't (try here or here). And besides, the arrival of Islam in the seventh century made Egypt a culturally and demographically distinct place from the land of the pharaohs.
Which indicates he feels the way he does about modern Egyptians because modern Egypt isn't similar to ancient in terms of culture and demographics (among other things). He is speaking specifically about modern Egyptians as he says:
quote:Only now am I becoming able to make peace with something that has nagged at me lately: I don't think of the protesters in Egypt as my brothers and sisters.
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ NE Africans are to West Sub-Saharan Africans what Chinese people are to Samoans.
But African Americans are not all West Sub-Saharan Africans. There are many of us that do feel a kin to NE Africans, at least the indigenous ones, both culturally and in appearance.
For example, my Grandfather looks exactly like Anwar Sadat and my Aunt has typical Egyptian features.
There is nothing like typical Egyptian features, your grandfather was most probably mixed with European blood too, that has NOTHING to do with Egypt or NE Africa - You and your family are off West African descent and most probably European as well, self hatred is very hurtful
Typical Egyptian features are such that you would be mistaken for Egyptian by the Egyptians themselves.
No, my Grandfather was from Morrocco. That side of my family is not West African but a mixture of East and Northwest African. There is Jewish admixture but not much European.
Not to say I am not part West African because I am.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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^^^ What's taking you so long to clairify your rant about NE Africans and West Africans comparable to "Somoan and Chinese"??
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Calabooz: ^ I would think NE Africans have a much greater connection to sub-Saharans than Chinese and Samoans (for example, see: Frigi et al., 2010). Not to mentioned the Nile Valley was populated by sub-Saharan Africans. So, I don't think that is the best comparison...
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: osirion - Just WHERE do you get your nonsense?
Please tell us in what way: "NE Africans are to West Sub-Saharan Africans what Chinese people are to Samoans."
Two groups of people that share a common ancestor but have diverged in phenotype due to climate and dietary differeces. Cultures have also diverged due to climate and diet.
This is true for the West Sub-Saharan Africans compared to NE Africans as it is true for Samoans and the Chinese.
Nothing more is implied other than a visual analogy to help set the overall tone of my response.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Calabooz: ^ I would think NE Africans have a much greater connection to sub-Saharans than Chinese and Samoans (for example, see: Frigi et al., 2010). Not to mentioned the Nile Valley was populated by sub-Saharan Africans. So, I don't think that is the best comparison...
Yes i agree.
Populated by Sub-Saharans - true, but not West Sub-Saharans. Populated by a people that originated in the Borana homeland.
There's a lot of different types of Africans so lets be specific. I don't think you are claiming that the Efe Pygmies of central Africa migrated to NE Africa and became the Egyptians? I think you realize that specifically it was a Horn African population that migrated Northward.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Two groups of people that share a common ancestor but have diverged in phenotype due to climate and dietary differeces. Cultures have also diverged due to climate and diet.
This is true for the West Sub-Saharan Africans compared to NE Africans as it is true for Samoans and the Chinese.
Nothing more is implied other than a visual analogy to help set the overall tone of my response.
OH! I hadn't realised you said west Africans. However, Egypt was still connected to west Africa:
I'll just quickly reiterate what The Explorer said a few days ago:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: I beg to differ based on evidence. M2 or haplotype IV markers, prevalent in western Africa are considerable in the Nile Valley, with Upper Egyptian samples having the lion's share. The dominant genotype of HbS in that region is the Benin haplotype. That too links them directly with populations in western Africa. I am no advocate for hyper demic diffusion models that place western Africans in the Nile Valley, but that doesn't stop me from acknowledging connections where they actually exist.
Characterization of Mycobacterium tuberculosis Complex DNAs from Egyptian Mummies by Spoligotyping Albert R. Zink,1 Christophe Sola,2 Udo Reischl,3 Waltraud Grabner,1 Nalin Rastogi,2 Hans Wolf,3 and Andreas G. Nerlich1* Division of Palaeopathology, Institute of Pathology, Academic Teaching Hospital München-Bogenhausen, D-81925 Munich,1 Institute of Medical Microbiology and Hygiene, University Regensburg, D-93053 Regensburg, Germany,3 Unité de la Tuberculose et des Mycobactéries, Institut Pasteur, F-97165 Pointe-à-Pitre Cedex, Guadeloupe2
Received 13 March 2002/ Returned for modification 8 July 2002/ Accepted 26 September 2002
Bone and soft tissue samples from 85 ancient Egyptian mummies were analyzed for the presence of ancient Mycobacterium tuberculosis complex DNA (aDNA) and further characterized by spoligotyping. The specimens were obtained from individuals from different tomb complexes in Thebes West, Upper Egypt, which were used for upper social class burials between the Middle Kingdom (since ca. 2050 BC) and the Late Period (until ca. 500 BC). A total of 25 samples provided a specific positive signal for the amplification of a 123-bp fragment of the repetitive element IS6110, indicating the presence of M. tuberculosis DNA. Further PCR-based tests for the identification of subspecies failed due to lack of specific amplification products in the historic tissue samples. Of these 25 positive specimens, 12 could be successfully characterized by spoligotyping. The spoligotyping signatures were compared to those in an international database. They all show either an M. tuberculosis or an M. africanum pattern, but none revealed an M. bovis-specific pattern. The results from a Middle Kingdom tomb (used exclusively between ca. 2050 and 1650 BC) suggest that these samples bear an M. africanum-type specific spoligotyping signature. The samples from later periods provided patterns typical for M. tuberculosis. This study clearly demonstrates that spoligotyping can be applied to historic tissue samples. In addition, our results do not support the theory that M. tuberculosis originated from the M. bovis type but, rather, suggest that human M. tuberculosis may have originated from a precursor complex probably related to M. africanum.
quote:Mycobacterium africanum is a species of Mycobacterium that is most commonly found in West African countries. The symptoms of infection resemble those of M. tuberculosis.
quote:Originally posted by Osirion: Populated by Sub-Saharans - true, but not West Sub-Saharans. Populated by a people that originated in the Borana homeland.
Really, now? According to what objective evidence? I haven't seen anything claiming they descend from a people from the Borana homeland, could you post the source? As for Nile Valley and west Africa, as seen above, there is definitely a connection between the two, which means your comparison between west and Nile Valley Africans to Samoans ad chinese still needs to be elaborated upon, as West Africa and the Nile Valley probably have a much deeper connection.
quote:There's a lot of different types of Africans so lets be specific. I don't think you are claiming that the Efe Pygmies of central Africa migrated to NE Africa and became the Egyptians? I think you realize that specifically it was a Horn African population that migrated Northward.
I am simply saying that there is a deeper connection to west Africa than generally realised. The Explorer just had a conversation about this yesterday, in Truthcentric's thread. I agree with Explorer as there being no evidence for demic diffusion, but there is still a connection.
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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^ Borana homeland = origins of the dominant male mediated Egyptian haplogroup. Home of the Capsian culture and likely the origin of the Afrasan language itself.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ Borana homeland = origins of the dominant male mediated Egyptian haplogroup. Home of the Capsian culture and likely the origin of the Afrasan language itself.
Ah, I see. Would you mind posting the source for this information? Thanks.
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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Kenya Capsian Complex Genetic information on the Borana Origin of the Afrasan language
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In Kenya there is the multi-phase Eburran (Mt Eburu) Industry.
Gafsa Tunisia's later tool kit typologically resembles Eburran's earlier one.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Calabooz: ^ I would think NE Africans have a much greater connection to sub-Saharans than Chinese and Samoans (for example, see: Frigi et al., 2010). Not to mentioned the Nile Valley was populated by sub-Saharan Africans. So, I don't think that is the best comparison...
I keep telling the fool this, but he won't listen. Perhaps a better comparison would be Chinese and southeast Asians, NOT Chinese and Polynesians.
Also this thread is stupid because nobody in here thinks black Americans represent Egyptians except maybe Wally. LOL Besides, I see far more cases of black Americans being mistaken for Egyptians than white Americans.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Calabooz: ^ I would think NE Africans have a much greater connection to sub-Saharans than Chinese and Samoans (for example, see: Frigi et al., 2010). Not to mentioned the Nile Valley was populated by sub-Saharan Africans. So, I don't think that is the best comparison...
I keep telling the fool this, but he won't listen. Perhaps a better comparison would be Chinese and southeast Asians, NOT Chinese and Polynesians.
Also this thread is stupid because nobody in here thinks black Americans represent Egyptians except maybe Wally. LOL Besides, I see far more cases of black Americans being mistaken for Egyptians than white Americans.
AGAIN! - I was specifically referring TO WEST SUB-SAHARANS! Sub-Saharan in general also refers to Horn Africans from whence Egyptian people are directly related both genetically and in terms of language.
This is silly fantasy stuff to talk about the Bantu and Niger Congo people being Egyptians!
That simply isn't true at all. They have their own history, culture, and civilizations.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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McWhorter is one of those contrarian U.S. blacks--not at all popular with even mainstream blacks--who has for many years now found a home with right-wing and neocon elements in the U.S.
His circle of empathy begins with the neocons--i.e. his Jewish patrons--and ends with Israel.
His idea about human moral commitments in terms of some "circle of empathy" is just bogus. After all, how do you explain doctors who belong to "Medecins sans Frontieres" or historically non-Spaniards who volunteered from many countries to fight in the Spanish Civil War of the last century.
No. McWhorter's not so subtle point is that he is an American through and through and that he has no connection with people on the African continent. But let the state of Israel be threatened in any way and he would be willing in a nanosecond to rush to its defence.
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ NE Africans are to West Sub-Saharan Africans what Chinese people are to Samoans.
But African Americans are not all West Sub-Saharan Africans. There are many of us that do feel a kin to NE Africans, at least the indigenous ones, both culturally and in appearance.
For example, my Grandfather looks exactly like Anwar Sadat and my Aunt has typical Egyptian features.
There is nothing like typical Egyptian features, your grandfather was most probably mixed with European blood too, that has NOTHING to do with Egypt or NE Africa - You and your family are off West African descent and most probably European as well, self hatred is very hurtful
Alot of african americans have tuareg and fulani ancestry and we know those two groups have a very similar look to north east africans
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quote:Originally posted by Calabooz: OK... Could you give me the name?
Borano- per Tishkoff, only about 2.40% of their gene pool can be considered non-African in origin.
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
quote:Originally posted by Calabooz:
quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ which part?
Kenya Capsian Complex Genetic information on the Borana Origin of the Afrasan language
Genetic info on Borana
Read Fulvio Cruciani.
Check our the charts on the Borana who have the highest frequency of E-M78.
Cruciani et al 2004
Yes, the Borana are the purest Horn Africans and why I use them as an example of the people that were the original fore bearers.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Calabooz: ^ I would think NE Africans have a much greater connection to sub-Saharans than Chinese and Samoans (for example, see: Frigi et al., 2010). Not to mentioned the Nile Valley was populated by sub-Saharan Africans. So, I don't think that is the best comparison...
I keep telling the fool this, but he won't listen. Perhaps a better comparison would be Chinese and southeast Asians, NOT Chinese and Polynesians.
Also this thread is stupid because nobody in here thinks black Americans represent Egyptians..
^Indeed. Its another of Osiron's bogus troll exercises, complete with recently created Posters who "join" his "debate." The Mcworther piece focuses on modern, Arabized Egypt. When he does go back in time, Macworther is stuck in the stale "Black Athena" debates of the 1990s with its bogus strawman "debates" about Egypt being solely responsible for Greek achievements. Right.... Set up the easy strawman... then knock it down.. thus diverting attention from hard data on the ground.
He references Howe's 'Afrocentrism" book, neglecting to mention that Howe himself is forced to concede that Egypt is indeed an African civilization. Macworther is clueless in this area when he steps outside his own linguistic and race pundit speciality. But that is not surprising...
Howe's book has some detailed info in it of historical interest as to older authors and writings on the topic, but in other ways it is a slippery and inconsistent rant, heavy on strawman building.
He spends a lot of time assailing "Afrocentrists" while attempting to minimize as much as possible the data showing the AEs were tropically adapted Africans. By 1999, when he wrote his book, he had the substantial cranial, limb proportion, cultural and even initial DNA data on file. He minimizes all, then in a veiled way, finally, grudgingly admits the truth when he has to deal with Keita's data.
Quote from page 132- after dozens of previous page rants and sly minimization (he is sure to mention Libyan and Nubian mercenaries, and Greek immigration, for example, and Eugene Strouhal's dubious "5% negroes" claim, (circa 1971) but somehow conveniently skips the substantial aforementioned cranial, limb, cultural and dna data).
Finally he admits it: [QUOTE:]
"No serious contemporary scholar, however, appears to doubt that the great bulk of the predynastic and Pharonic population was of indigenous African origin (see, for example, Hoffman 1991; Rice 1991)" --S. Howe (1999) Afrocentrism: mythical pasts and imagined homes. Verso. pg 132.
In his standard modus operandi of damming with either faint praise or obfuscation and omission, Howe's veiled confession above is quickly covered by noting the work of C. Loring brace 1993. He also tries to water down Keita's data, claiming that Keita said European Egyptology has over a long period page accepted the Egyptians as a mixed but largely African population. In fact, Keita said no such thing. Indeed, Keita notes the Aryan/Hamitic model and associated ideology in several of his works prior to 1999.
On page 133, Howe also claims that Keita and C.L Brace 93 are in "broad agreement". In fact they are not. Keita's research challenges several aspects of Brace's work, even before 1999. One can see the slipperiness of Howe. And while appearing to agree with Keita, he is sure to get in a slight dig at him- putting Keita's term Saharo-Tropical in ironic quotes.
Research since 1999 only confirms Keita's data.
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As for various Egypt to Greek connections below, is applicable data from mainstream scholars, in just the science/technology areas that Macworther once again, conveniently misses.
Setting up an easy strawman as claiming some sort of super Egyptian influence, serves to obscure, hide and filter out the documented influences and connections that are already well known by established scholars. Perhaps that is the whole point- to obscure, hide and minimize...
RECAP:
------------------------------------------------------ Here is one conservative scholar on Greek borrowing from Egypt and the Near east. HEs lists the adoption of writing as of crucial development to Greek civ, and points out that the Greeks did not invent their own alphabet but copied that of the Phonecians, peoples of a Near eastern and North African locale..
Another key influence, the introduction of iron technology was again, not a Greek invention but came from elsewhere.
The conservative also questions the "Greek Miracle.."
Below is another conservative writer. He is a staunch supporter of Greek philosophy, but even he notes that the Greeks STYLE of philosophy was different, not that they invented the subject. He notes that peoples of the Near East and Egypt already had their own philosophy. It is a matter of style, and Greek preferences, and how "philosophy" is defined. The conservative writer openly admits this. quote: "the perspective from which I discussed philosophy- was very much a Greek one."
Incidentally the same author also notes that questioning the degree to which Greek civ is derivative is something longstanding in some of the "classics" literature.
Here's another conservative scholar:
---------------------------------------------- Yet another mainstream scholar says:
"No aspect of this question is more discussed at present than the relation between Greece and the near East, especially Egypt. Some nineteenth-century scholars wished to downplay or deny any significant cultural influence of the Near East on Greece, but that was plainly not the ancient Greek view of the question. Greek intellectuals of the historical period proclaimed that Greeks owed a great deal to the older civilization of Egypt, in particular in religion and art. Recent research agrees with this ancient opinion. Greek sculptors in the Archaic Age chiseled their statutes according to a set of proportions established by Egyptian artists. Greek mythology, the stories that the Greeks told themselves about their deepest origins and their relations to the gods, was infused with stories and motifs of Near Eastern origin. The clearest evidence of the influence of Egyptian culture in Greek is the store if seminal religious ideas that flowed from Egypt to Greece: the geography of the underworld, the weighing of the souls of the dead in scales, the life-giving properties of fire as commemorated in the initiation ceremonies of the international cult of the goddess Semeter of Eleusis (a famous site in Athenian territory), and much more. These influences are not surprising because archaeology reveals that the population inhabiting Greece had diplomatic and commercial contact with the Near East as early as the middle of the second millennium B.C... When the Greeks learned from the peoples of the Near East, they made what they learned their own. This is how cultural identity is forged, not by mindless imitation or passive reception. (pg. 21)
"The civilizations of Mesopotamia and Anatolia particularly overshadowed those of Crete and Greece in the size of their cities and the development of extensive written legal codes. Egypt remained an especially favored destination of Mycenean voyagers throughout the late Bronze Age because they valued the exchange of goods and ideas with the prosperous and complex civilization of that land." (pg 30)
-- (From: Thomas R. Martin (2000) Ancient Greece: From Prehistoric to Hellenistic Times. Yale University Press, pg 21, 30)
SOmething to think about when claims of Greek "rationality" are posited: Medicine:
"Drugs were applied not because of a belief that they had natural healing properties, but following the tenets of primitive medicine, because they had magical powers. The Greek word pharmakon, usually translated as "drug: originally designated a substance with magic powers. These powers, however, did not need to be therapeutic, (a pharmakon could be a poison or could turn humans into animals) but were originally considered to me magic..
Supernaturalistic medicine is characterized by a multiplicity of powers that can heal and kill. Primitive Greek medicine was no exception and many Greek gods had healing functions: Apollo, the first deity invoked in the Hippocratic oath; Vulcan, worshipped in Lemnos, gave his healing powers to terra lemmnia, Juno, Jupiter's wife assisted women in childbirth.. In addition some of the gods could cause sudden death: for example, both Apollo and Diana could shoot lethal darts at humans.." (--A history of medicine by Plinio Priorescho 2004)
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Ancient Greece: From Prehistoric to Hellenistic Times
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"It is not, of course, to be supposed that these coastmen and islanders of the Ægean were without some rudimentary notions of art of their own. In the time of Thothmes III., there were already Cypriote settlers making Cypriote pottery, and inscribing their pots with Cypriote characters at Tell Gurob. In the time of Meneptah, the Lycians and Carians and Achæans were ship-builders and workers in bronze; and we may take it for granted that they fashioned rude Cyclopean temples, like the primitive temple discovered a few years ago in Delos, with probably an upright stone for a god. But architecture, sculpture, and original decorative art, we may be sure they had none.
And the proof that they had none is found in the fact that the earliest known vestiges of Greek architecture, Greek sculpture, and Greek decorative art are copied from Egyptian sources.
It is not at all strange that the Greeks should have borrowed their first notions of architecture and decoration from Egypt, the parent of the arts; but that they should have borrowed architectural decoration before they borrowed architecture itself, sounds paradoxical enough. Yet such is the fact; and it is a fact for which it is easy to account.
The most ancient remains of buildings in Greece are of Cyclopean, or, as some have it, of Pelasgic origin; and the most famous of these Cyclopean works are two subterraneous structures known as the Treasury of Atreus and the Treas- [Page 168] ury of Minyas–the former at Mycenæ, in Argolis, the latter at Orchomenos, in Boeotia. Both are built after the one plan, being huge dome-shaped constructions formed of horizontal layers of dressed stones, each layer projecting over the one next below, till the top was closed by a single block. The whole was then covered in with earth, and so buried. Such structures scarcely come under the head of architecture, in the accepted sense of the word.
Now, whether the Pelasgi were the rude forefathers of the Aryan Hellenes, or whether they were a distinct race of Turanian origin settled in Greece before Hellas began, is a disputed question which I cannot pretend to decide; but what we do know is, that the prehistoric ruins of Mycenæ and Orchomenos are four hundred, if not five hundred, years older than the oldest remains of the historic school. Of all that happened during the dark interval which separated the prehistoric from the historic, we are absolutely ignorant.
If, however, the builders of Mycenæ and Orchomenos were Pelasgians, and if the builders of the earliest historic temples were Hellenes, it is, at all events, certain that the Pelasgians went to Egypt for their surface decoration, and the Hellenes for their architectural models. Moreover–and this is very curious–they both appear to have gone to school to the same place. That place is on the confines of Middle and Upper Egypt, about one hundred and seventy miles above Cairo, and its modern name is Beni-Hasan.
The rock-cut sepulchres of Beni-Hasan are among the famous sights of the Nile. They are excavated in terraces at a great height above the river, and they were made for the great feudal princes who governed this province under the Pharaohs of the Twelfth Dynasty. Their walls are covered with paintings of the highest interest; their ceilings are rich in polychromatic decoration; and many are adorned with pillared porches cut in the solid rock. (43)
It is to be remembered that the foundation of the Twelfth Egyptian Dynasty–the great dynasty of the Usertesens and Amenemhats–dates from about 3000 to 2500 years before [Page 169] Christ. These Beni-Hasan sepulchres are therefore older by many centuries than the so-called "Treasuries" of Orchomenos and Mycenæ.
Now, at Mycenæ, near the entrance to the Treasury of Atreus, there stands the base and part of the shaft of a column decorated with a spiral ornament, which here makes its first appearance on Greek soil. This spiral (though it never achieved the universal popularity of the meander, or "key pattern," or of the misnamed "honeysuckle pattern" ) became in historic times a stock motive of Hellenic design; and all three patterns–the spiral, the meander, and the honeysuckle–have long been regarded as purely Greek inventions. But they were all painted on the ceilings of the Beni-Hasan tombs full twelve hundred years before a stone of the Treasuries of Mycenæ or Orchomenos was cut from the quarry. The spiral, either in its simplest form, or in combination with the rosette or the lotus, is an Egyptian design. The rosette is Egyptian; and the honeysuckle, which Mr. Petrie has identified as a florid variety of the lotus pattern, (44) is also distinctly Egyptian." - by Amelia Edwards, Pharaohs Fellahs and Explorers; Chapter 5: Egypt the Birthplace of Greek Decorative Art., 1891. Source: Link
"A striking change appears in Greek art of the seventh century B.C., the beginning of the Archaic period. The abstract geometric patterning that was dominant between about 1050 and 700 B.C. is supplanted in the seventh century by a more naturalistic style reflecting significant influence from the Near East and Egypt. Trading stations in the Levant and the Nile Delta, continuing Greek colonization in the east and west, as well as contact with eastern craftsmen, notably on Crete and Cyprus, inspired Greek artists to work in techniques as diverse as gem cutting, ivory carving, jewelry making, and metalworking (1989.281.49-.50). Eastern pictorial motifs were introduced—palmette and lotus compositions, animal hunts, and such composite beasts as griffins (part bird, part lion), sphinxes (part woman, part winged lion), and sirens (part woman, part bird). Greek artists rapidly assimilated foreign styles and motifs into new portrayals of their own myths and customs, thereby forging the foundations of Archaic and Classical Greek art." - Source: Greek Art in the Archaic Period | Thematic Essay | Heilbrunn Timeline of Art History | The Metropolitan Museum of Art
"Design was monumental but not architecturally complex and employed posts and lintels, rather than arches, although Egyptian expertise in stone had a strong influence on later Greek architecture....
The history of art and architecture in Ancient Greece is divided into three basic eras: the Archaic Period (c.600-500 BCE), the Classical Period (c.500-323 BCE) and the Hellenistic Period (c.323-27 BCE). About 600 BCE, inspired by the theory and practice of earlier Egyptian stone masons and builders, the Greeks set about replacing the wooden structures of their public buildings with stone structures - a process known as 'petrification'. Limestone and marble was employed for columns and walls, while terracotta was used for roof tiles and ornaments. Decoration was done in metal, like bronze...
Architectural Methods of Ancient Greece
Like the Egyptians, the Greeks used simple post-and-lintel building techniques." - Source: visual-arts-cork.com
I think the following sums up undeniable 'western' fascination with and romanticization of ancient Egypt:
A SCHOLAR of no less distinction than the late Sir Richard Burton wrote the other day of Egypt as "the inventor of the alphabet, the cradle of letters, the preacher of animism and metempsychosis, and, generally, the source of all human civilization." This is a broad statement; but it is literally true. Hence the irresistible fascination of Egyptology–a fascination which is quite unintelligible to those who are ignorant of the subject. - Amelia Edwards, 1891.
The immigration of Greeks to Egypt for the purpose of their education, began as a result of the Persian invasion (525 B.C.), and continued until the Greeks gained possession of that land and access to the Royal Library, through the conquest of Alexander the Great. Alexandria was converted into a Greek city, a centre of research and the capital of the newly created Greek empire, under the rule of Ptolemies. Egyptian culture survived and flourished, under the name and control of the Greeks, until the edicts of Theodosius in the 4th century A.D., and that of Justinian in the 6th century A.D., which closed the Mystery Temples and Schools, as elsewhere mentioned. (Ancient Egypt by John Kendrick Bk. II p. 55; Sandford's Mediterranean World p. 562; 570).
Concerning the fact that Egypt was the greatest education centre of the ancient world which was also visited by the Greeks, reference must again be made to Plato in the Timaeus who tells us that Greek aspirants to wisdom visited Egypt for initiation, and that the priests of Sais used to refer to them as children in the Mysteries.
As regards the visit of Greek students to Egypt for the purpose of their education, the following are mentioned simply to establish the fact that Egypt was regarded as the educational centre of the ancient world and that like the Jews, the Greeks also visited Egypt and received their education. (1) It is said that during the reign of Amasis, Thales who is said to have been born about 585 B.C., visited Egypt and was initiated by the Egyptian Priests into the Mystery System and science of the Egyptians. We are also told that during his residence
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in Egypt, he learnt astronomy, land surveying, mensuration, engineering and Egyptian Theology. (See Thales in Blackwell's source book of Philosophy; Zeller's Hist. of Phil.; Diogenes Laertius and Kendrick's Ancient Egypt).
(2) It is said that Pythagoras, a native of Samos, travelled frequently to Egypt for the purpose of his education. Like every aspirant, he had to secure the consent and favour of the Priests, and we are informed by Diogenes that a friendship existed between Polycrates of Samos and Amasis King of Egypt, that Polycrates gave Pythagoras letters of introduction to the King, who secured for him an introduction to the Priests; first to the Priest of Heliopolis, then to the Priest of Memphis, and lastly to the Priests of Thebes, to each of whom Pythagoras gave a silver goblet. (Herodotus Bk. III 124; Diogenes VIII 3; Pliny N. H., 36, 9; Antipho recorded by Porphyry).
We are also further informed through Herodotus, Jablonsk and Pliny, that after severe trials, including circumcision, had been imposed upon him by the Egyptian Priests, he was finally initiated into all their secrets. That he learnt the doctrine of metempsychosis; of which there was no trace before in the Greek religion; that his knowledge of medicine and strict system of dietetic rules, distinguished him as a product of Egypt, where medicine had attained its highest perfection; and that his attainments in geometry corresponded with the ascertained fact that Egypt was the birth place of that Science. In addition we have the statements of Plutarch, Demetrius and Antisthenes that Pythagoras founded the Science of Mathematics among the Greeks, and that he sacrificed to the Muses, when the Priests explained to him the properties of the right angled triangle. (Philarch de Repugn. Stoic 2 p. 1089; Demetrius; Antisthenes; Cicero de Natura Deorum III, 36). Pythagoras was also trained in music by the Egyptian priests. (Kendrick's Hist. of Ancient Egypt vol. I. p. 234).
(3) According to Diogenes Laertius and Herodotus, Democritus is said to have been born about 400 B.C. and to
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have been a native of Abdera in Miletus. We are also told by Demetrius in his treatise on "People of the Same Name", and by Antisthenes in his treatise on "Succession", that Democritus travelled to Egypt for the purpose of his education and received the instruction of the Priests. We also learn from Diogenes and Herodotus that he spent five years under the instruction of the Egyptian Priests and that after the completion of his education, he wrote a treatise on the sacred characters of Meroe.
In this respect we further learn from Origen, that circumcision was compulsory, and one of the necessary conditions of initiation to a knowledge of the hieroglyphics and sciences of the Egyptians, and it is obvious that Democritus, in order to obtain such knowledge, must have submitted also to that rite. Origen, who was a native of Egypt wrote as follows:—
"Apud Aegyptios nullus aut geometrica studebat, aut astronomiae secreta remabatur, nisi circumcisione suscepta." (No one among the Egyptians, either studied geometry, or investigated the secrets of Astronomy, unless circumcision had been undertaken).
(4) Concerning Plato's travels we are told by Hermodorus that at the age of 28 Plato visited Euclid at Megara in company with other pupils of Socrates; and that for the next ten years he visited Cyrene, Italy and finally Egypt, where he received instruction from the Egyptian Priests.
(5) With regards to Socrates and Aristotle and the majority of pre-Socratic philosophers, history seems to be silent on the question of their travelling to Egypt like the few other students here mentioned, for the purpose of their education. It is enough to say, that in this case the exceptions have proved the rule, that ail students, who had the means, went to Egypt to complete their education. The fact that history fails to supply a fuller account of this type of immigration, might be due to some or all of the following reasons:
(a) The immigration laws against the Greeks up to the time of King Amasis and the Persian Invasion, (b) Prose
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history was undeveloped among the Greeks during the period of their educational immigration to Egypt. (c) The Greek authorities persecuted and drove students of philosophy into hiding and consequently, (d) Students of the Mystery System concealed their movements.
Let us remember that Anaxagoras was indicted and imprisoned; that he escaped and fled to his home in Ionia, that Socrates was indicted, imprisoned and condemned to death; and that both Plato and Aristotle fled from Athens under great suspicion (William Turner's Hist. of Phil. p. 62; Plato's Phaedo; Zeller's Hist. of Phil. p. 84; 127; Roger's Hist. of Phil. p. 76; William Turner's Hist. of Phil. p. 126). 2. The Effects of the Conquest of Egypt by Alexander the Great.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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This thread is nothing more than an idiotic strawman. Nobody in here ever claimed African Americans represent Egypt! However it is a well established FACT that not surprising many African Americans do get mistaken as Egyptians! Why is that??
quote:Over the years, I have, at various times, been mistaken for many different nationalities. But when I am in the Middle East, strangers most often mistake me for Egyptian. Of course, many African Americans look like Egyptians, right across the color spectrum. I would often scan a crowded street in Cairo and pick out the faces of Egyptians whose visages reminded me of family or friends.
Almost every time I arrived at the Cairo airport, the immigration official would examine my passport closely. Inevitably, the official would ask me a series of questions.
"Is this your name, Sunni Khalid?"
"Yes."
"Are you Egyptian?"
"No."
"Is your father Egyptian?"
"No."
"Is your mother Egyptian?"
"No."
"Where were you born?"
"Detroit."
The official would immediately become suspicious. After all, to his eyes, I looked like an ordinary Egyptian. Finally, another immigration official would show up, repeating the same series of questions. I'd have to repeat my answers a third or fourth time before still more disbelieving immigration officials.
Of course this is just one of MANY cases I've read of this happening. A few other cases were posted in this forum before. Please feel free people to post them for informative purposes if not to drive the angry Afrangi Dirt wild. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Osirion- You have recently repeated your claim that west Africans are to Egyptians what Samoans are to Chinese on another thread. So I will repeat myself by asking, what evidence do you have to support that claim? Already provided here and elswhere, west Africans DO have several connections to Egypt. You will have to prove Samoans have a similar relationship to Chinese in order to justify your comparison.
I am still waiting on the name for the Cruciani paper. You weren't very specific
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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This thread is nothing more than an idiotic strawman. Nobody in here ever claimed African Americans represent Egypt! However it is a well established FACT that not surprising many African Americans do get mistaken as Egyptians! Why is that??
Yes, enlightened one, can you please tell us your reasons for this perception on your part?
$$$$
-------------------- Chairman Mau Posts: 422 | From: Leave No Stone Unturned! | Registered: Feb 2011
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^ I'm sure you know the answer but hate to admit it oh stink one. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Calabooz: Osirion- You have recently repeated your claim that west Africans are to Egyptians what Samoans are to Chinese on another thread. So I will repeat myself by asking, what evidence do you have to support that claim? Already provided here and elswhere, west Africans DO have several connections to Egypt. You will have to prove Samoans have a similar relationship to Chinese in order to justify your comparison.
I am still waiting on the name for the Cruciani paper. You weren't very specific
Please name this West African Bantu gene of significance in the Egyptian population? What you have is East African genes.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Calabooz: Osirion- You have recently repeated your claim that west Africans are to Egyptians what Samoans are to Chinese on another thread. So I will repeat myself by asking, what evidence do you have to support that claim? Already provided here and elswhere, west Africans DO have several connections to Egypt. You will have to prove Samoans have a similar relationship to Chinese in order to justify your comparison.
I am still waiting on the name for the Cruciani paper. You weren't very specific
Please name this West African Bantu gene of significance in the Egyptian population? What you have is East African genes.
This has already been mentioned before:
quote:GENETICS, EGYPT, AND HISTORY: INTERPRETING GEOGRAPHICAL PATTERNS OF Y CHROMOSOME VARIATION1 S.O.Y. KEITA NATIONAL HUMAN GENOME CENTER, HOWARD UNIVERSITY DEPARTMENT OF ANTHROPOLOGY, SMITHSONIAN INSTITUTION A. J. BOYCE INSTITUTE OF BIOLOGICAL ANTHROPOLOGY AND ST. JOHN’S COLLEGE OXFORD UNIVERSITY
Haplotype IV, designating the M2/PN1 subclade, as noted, is found in high frequency in west, central, and sub-equatorial Africa in speakers of Niger-Congo—which may have a special relationship with Nilosaharan— spoken by Nubians; together they might form a superphylum called Kongo-Saharan or Niger-Saharan (see Gregersen 1972, Blench 1995), but this is not fully supported. The spatial distribution of p49a,f TaqI haplotypes in the geographically-widespread speakers of Nilosaharan languages has not been fully characterized, but the notable presence of haplotype IV in Nubians speaking the Eastern Sudanic branch is interesting in that this subgroup is in the Sahelian branch of speakers, whose ancestors may have participated in the domestication of cattle in the eastern Sahara (Ehret 2000, Wendorf and Schild 2001). Sometimes haplotype IV (and the M2 lineage) is seen as being associated with the “Bantu expansion” (~2000- 3000 bp), but this does not mean that it is not much older, since expansion and origin times cannot be conflated. Haplotype IV has substantial frequencies in upper Egypt and Nubia , greater than VII and VIII, and even V. Bantu languages were never spoken in these regions or Senegal, where M2 is greater than 90 percent in some studies.
Characterization of Mycobacterium tuberculosis Complex DNAs from Egyptian Mummies by Spoligotyping Albert R. Zink,1 Christophe Sola,2 Udo Reischl,3 Waltraud Grabner,1 Nalin Rastogi,2 Hans Wolf,3 and Andreas G. Nerlich1* Division of Palaeopathology, Institute of Pathology, Academic Teaching Hospital München-Bogenhausen, D-81925 Munich,1 Institute of Medical Microbiology and Hygiene, University Regensburg, D-93053 Regensburg, Germany,3 Unité de la Tuberculose et des Mycobactéries, Institut Pasteur, F-97165 Pointe-à-Pitre Cedex, Guadeloupe2
Received 13 March 2002/ Returned for modification 8 July 2002/ Accepted 26 September 2002
Bone and soft tissue samples from 85 ancient Egyptian mummies were analyzed for the presence of ancient Mycobacterium tuberculosis complex DNA (aDNA) and further characterized by spoligotyping. The specimens were obtained from individuals from different tomb complexes in Thebes West, Upper Egypt, which were used for upper social class burials between the Middle Kingdom (since ca. 2050 BC) and the Late Period (until ca. 500 BC). A total of 25 samples provided a specific positive signal for the amplification of a 123-bp fragment of the repetitive element IS6110, indicating the presence of M. tuberculosis DNA. Further PCR-based tests for the identification of subspecies failed due to lack of specific amplification products in the historic tissue samples. Of these 25 positive specimens, 12 could be successfully characterized by spoligotyping. The spoligotyping signatures were compared to those in an international database. They all show either an M. tuberculosis or an M. africanum pattern, but none revealed an M. bovis-specific pattern. The results from a Middle Kingdom tomb (used exclusively between ca. 2050 and 1650 BC) suggest that these samples bear an M. africanum-type specific spoligotyping signature. The samples from later periods provided patterns typical for M. tuberculosis. This study clearly demonstrates that spoligotyping can be applied to historic tissue samples. In addition, our results do not support the theory that M. tuberculosis originated from the M. bovis type but, rather, suggest that human M. tuberculosis may have originated from a precursor complex probably related to M. africanum.
Among other things...
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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^ Indeed. It's been mentioned to Osirion many times before as well that E3a or rather E1b1a was also common in southern Egypt as well. Note that these haplotypes are pre-Bantu and therefore have nothing to do with the Bantu expansion.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^^Yup. As Keita notes, haplotype IV is sometimes associated with the Bantu expansion but that doesn't mean it isn't much older, since expansion and origin times cannot be conflated.
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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^ actually I didn't know there was a connection between haplotype IV and haplogroup E3a.
I stand corrected. Not like you are going to find 30% of Samoan genes in the Chinese population.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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- You and your family are off West African descent and most probably European as well, self hatred is very hurtful
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