posted
Marc I respectfully disagree Chinese are Chinese not Kemetians the whole world could not possibly descended from Kemetians.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Blacks living in ancient China is a fact but were they Africans?? No!! unless they were on trade, military , diplomatic missions or slaves..Asia got it's own Blacks.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Egyptians could have some Mongoloid in them without the Chinese needing to be black.
It seems everyone can see themselves in the ancient Egyptians, but I can't say those who discern something in the oriental in the above faces are entirely imagining things. Egypt may have had quite extensive links either over land or across the Indian Ocean. The presence of lapis lasuli in predynastic Egypt indicates trade with the east at least as far as Afghanistan, the only source of this material. Afghanistan was a meetingplace of caucasoid and mongoloid peoples.
Posts: 870 | From: uk | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
^^^ The Seated scribe looks more like a Eurasian Arab like Zahi Hiwass than an Indian. but I see what you are saying Both Indians and Arabs are Mongoloids anyway.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
Also Mongoloid Steppe people would have penetrated Arabia and maybe even into Egypt.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
India was also called 'Cush' and 'Ethiopia' at times, historically, which is interesting. There is something on possible Indian links to Egypt and e. Africa here...
posted
Apparently Arabs are considered Caucasian by the US Driving License service. Mongoloid is more usually used to describe the peoples of Mongolia, China, Indochina, Japan, the Pacific and Native Americans. In the UK the vague geographical term 'Asian' is often used as if it were a racial term, but it this is nonsensical. There are several different very distinct types of Indians, for instance.
Posts: 870 | From: uk | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thats the problem in the U.S Indians are "Caucasian" but in the U.K they are Asian, while Asians in the U.S refer to Far Eastern peoples and IndoChinese.
For example people in America would consider a Turk an Asian. Esp. if he does'nt look white.
If Mongoloid is to be used it should include people associated with Mongol type people from the Steppes. Which would include Afghans, Arabs, Some Indians, some Persians, and Turks etc.
I don't really use the term much but how can an Arab or Turk be Caucasian when they stem from Mongol Tribes...
There are "Caucasian" Steppe people though like Persians.
That the thing about using terms like Cuacasian, Negriod, and Mongoloid...its too restrictive and can often be blurred..
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Blacks living in ancient China is a fact but were they Africans?? No!! unless they were on trade, military , diplomatic missions or slaves..Asia got it's own Blacks.
That is just a plain silly statement. Where do you think they came from?
But that is quite different from them being Egyptian.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Blacks living in ancient China is a fact but were they Africans?? No!! unless they were on trade, military , diplomatic missions or slaves..Asia got it's own Blacks.
What evidence do you have that there were no African Blacks in ancient China? Please list your evidence.
posted
We know when cultural and genetic Africans made trade or contacts in China we have the records, Blacks in China were part of the original Out of Africa migrations living there or the surrounding areas upwards of 50kyrs ago Newest Research Confirms Beachcomber Route to Asia out of Africa http://dnatestingsystems.goodbarry.com/_blog/DNA_Consultants_Blog/post/Newest_Research_Confirms_Beachcomber_Route_to_Asia_out_of_Africa/ click The physical variations that followed does not make them any less Asians as they would have had to adopt to their many new different environment,so either they are all Africans or they are all Asians. Now massive movement of more recent genetic and cultural Africans is for you to prove.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: We know when cultural and genetic Africans made trade or contacts in China we have the records, Blacks in China were part of the original Out of Africa migrations living there or the surrounding areas upwards of 50kyrs ago Newest Research Confirms Beachcomber Route to Asia out of Africa http://dnatestingsystems.goodbarry.com/_blog/DNA_Consultants_Blog/post/Newest_Research_Confirms_Beachcomber_Route_to_Asia_out_of_Africa/ click The physical variations that followed does not make them any less Asians as they would have had to adopt to their many new different environment,so either they are all Africans or they are all Asians. Now massive movement of more recent genetic and cultural Africans is for you to prove.
This is related to the OOA event.
I am asking for your evidence that historic African groups did not settle neolithic China.
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Blacks living in ancient China is a fact but were they Africans?? No!! unless they were on trade, military , diplomatic missions or slaves..Asia got it's own Blacks.
What evidence do you have that there were no African Blacks in ancient China? Please list your evidence.
.
what is the official Clyde Winters definition of black?
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Blacks living in ancient China is a fact but were they Africans?? No!! unless they were on trade, military , diplomatic missions or slaves..Asia got it's own Blacks.
What evidence do you have that there were no African Blacks in ancient China? Please list your evidence.
.
what is the official Clyde Winters definition of black?
Would you include his man:
I am talking about Africans. Does this man look like an African to you?
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Thats the problem in the U.S Indians are "Caucasian" but in the U.K they are Asian, while Asians in the U.S refer to Far Eastern peoples and IndoChinese.
For example people in America would consider a Turk an Asian. Esp. if he does'nt look white.
If Mongoloid is to be used it should include people associated with Mongol type people from the Steppes. Which would include Afghans, Arabs, Some Indians, some Persians, and Turks etc.
I don't really use the term much but how can an Arab or Turk be Caucasian when they stem from Mongol Tribes...
There are "Caucasian" Steppe people though like Persians.
That the thing about using terms like Cuacasian, Negriod, and Mongoloid...its too restrictive and can often be blurred..
The Turks have their origins in the Asian Steppes, but the Arabs don't. Arabs are indigenous to Arabia. Turks only arrived in the middle east in about the Ninth Century AD, but Arabs were always there. Nothing mongoloid about the Arabs. Obviously Turks of Turkey have picked up a lot of Caucasian DNA, despite having mongoloid ancestors. Ataturk looked like an Englishman. I'm English, but a Turkish friend of mine thinks I look like a Turk!
Posts: 870 | From: uk | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Blacks living in ancient China is a fact but were they Africans?? No!! unless they were on trade, military , diplomatic missions or slaves..Asia got it's own Blacks.
What evidence do you have that there were no African Blacks in ancient China? Please list your evidence.
.
what is the official Clyde Winters definition of black?
Would you include his man:
I am talking about Africans. Does this man look like an African to you?
We are talking about prehistoric China. There are no records of that period to indicate that people looked African in China. Crude, unrealistic prehistoric artifacts also cannot tell you that much about how the people looked. So the burden of proof is on you. China is far from Africa and people, like any other animals were evolving adaptations to the environmental conditions in stages as they migrated, settled and migrated on the route from China to Africa. Clyde please get a good recent book on evolution. When you read about how various animals have adapted to various environmental conditions it all makes sense.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[/qb]
I am talking about Africans. Does this man look like an African to you? [/QB][/QUOTE]
Clyde please explain this remark. You are saying the man above does not look African to you.
Please answer the following question:
If the man in the above does not look African why does he not look African? If you follow his origins back in time does it go back to Africa? Conventional theory says that his ancestors once were Africans who lived in Africa and then gradually changed in appearance. If this is not the case then what are this man's origins going back to the furthest point? Are you a multi-regionalist believing that mankind originated independently on separate continents simultaneously?
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Thats the problem in the U.S Indians are "Caucasian" but in the U.K they are Asian, while Asians in the U.S refer to Far Eastern peoples and IndoChinese.
For example people in America would consider a Turk an Asian. Esp. if he does'nt look white.
If Mongoloid is to be used it should include people associated with Mongol type people from the Steppes. Which would include Afghans, Arabs, Some Indians, some Persians, and Turks etc.
I don't really use the term much but how can an Arab or Turk be Caucasian when they stem from Mongol Tribes...
There are "Caucasian" Steppe people though like Persians.
That the thing about using terms like Cuacasian, Negriod, and Mongoloid...its too restrictive and can often be blurred..
The Turks have their origins in the Asian Steppes, but the Arabs don't. Arabs are indigenous to Arabia. Turks only arrived in the middle east in about the Ninth Century AD, but Arabs were always there. Nothing mongoloid about the Arabs. Obviously Turks of Turkey have picked up a lot of Caucasian DNA, despite having mongoloid ancestors. Ataturk looked like an Englishman. I'm English, but a Turkish friend of mine thinks I look like a Turk!
You do realize how many Caucasian(Literally) slaves were enslaved under the Turks. Many were take from Georgia and other regions of the Caucus regions. Also many Christians were enslaved under the Turks who were probably Grecians, Syrians, etc.
So its no suprise that a Brit. such as yourself looks like a Modern Turk due to many Turks having blood From Europeans from the Caucus. But the Original Turks were "Mongoliod" or Asiatic.
As far as the Arabs go, the Arabs have had many peoples mix with them. The Original Arabs probabaly looked like Dravidians and Indians..
Here are some Arabs..
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Thats the problem in the U.S Indians are "Caucasian" but in the U.K they are Asian, while Asians in the U.S refer to Far Eastern peoples and IndoChinese.
For example people in America would consider a Turk an Asian. Esp. if he does'nt look white.
If Mongoloid is to be used it should include people associated with Mongol type people from the Steppes. Which would include Afghans, Arabs, Some Indians, some Persians, and Turks etc.
I don't really use the term much but how can an Arab or Turk be Caucasian when they stem from Mongol Tribes...
There are "Caucasian" Steppe people though like Persians.
That the thing about using terms like Cuacasian, Negriod, and Mongoloid...its too restrictive and can often be blurred..
The Turks have their origins in the Asian Steppes, but the Arabs don't. Arabs are indigenous to Arabia. Turks only arrived in the middle east in about the Ninth Century AD, but Arabs were always there. Nothing mongoloid about the Arabs. Obviously Turks of Turkey have picked up a lot of Caucasian DNA, despite having mongoloid ancestors. Ataturk looked like an Englishman. I'm English, but a Turkish friend of mine thinks I look like a Turk!
Very nice rahotep101, seems that you are one of the few who have actually read and thought on the subject, any subject actually.
But you are wrong in one respect, though Turks ranged into east Asia, they were originally just as White as the central Asians. The modern Turks (everywhere) are mostly Mulattoes, but with some who have little or no admixture, and thus look like any European. BTW - Turk is kind of a misnomer, since both Mongoloid and Caucasoid have been called Turk, via culture and language.
Jari has been here over three years, kinda makes you wonder.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:What evidence do you have that there were no African Blacks in ancient China? Please list your evidence.
Asking me to prove a negative? what evidence do you have of massive genetic and cultural Africans living in China to make a difference..post OOA.
Like I said we do have record of African traders,military and diplomats in Asia including China but not the kind of massive cultural influence I think you are talking about.
Lioness Black Asians still lives on the Asian main land and they may have done so until quite recently further to the north. as the silk screen paintings of Mongolians attacking Japanese forces revealed Japanese silk screen of both dark and lite-skinned Mongolian invaders being repulsed.
Chinese silk screen of a Black Mongolian horseman The above are two separate sources. Chinese records of small curly headed blacks and folks like the Shang would be referring to Black Asians as opposed to African migrants from the Nile valley.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Also don't forget about the Kunlun, clearly the Chinese were calling peoples Kunlun before Africans arrived.
The meanings of the word kunlun expanded during the Tang to include the races, countries, and languages of Southeast Asia. The Former Tang History describes the homeland of the kunlun people: "The people living to the south of Linyi ~E3 [present-day Vietnam] have curly hair and black bodies and are commonly called kunlun.,,16 The description of the country of Zhenla ~ HI (present-day Cambodia) also includes information on the kunlun: ~'The country of Zhenla is northwest of Linyi. It was originally a dependent of Funan. It is of the kunlun type.,,17 This appears to be the earliest Chinese.indication o f the kunlun as a racial group with a specific homeland. 18
Sources.. 17 Jiu Tang shu (Zhonghua shuju) 197: 5271. 18 Paul Pelliot cites juan 4 of the Jiu Tang shu as mentioning an incident involving the "kunlun of Guangzhou" in AD 684, but does not state when or how such people came to China or describe their appearance. This appears to be the first mention of a community of kunlun living in China, rather than a single slave who served the Emperor. Pelliot writes that this passage demonstrates that "les Kouen-Iouen aient d'ailleurs ete bien connus en Chine dans la seconde moitie du VIIeme siecle.... " Paul Pelliot, "Quelques Artistes des Six Dynasties et des T'ang," T'oung Pao 22 (1923), 272.
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Also don't forget about the Kunlun, clearly the Chinese were calling peoples Kunlun before Africans arrived.
When did Africans arrive?
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
On record during the Ming era but direct contacts were being made during the Tang dynasty Du Huan was a captured slave of the Moslems some 7centuries before zeng Ho taken to Africa now when he made his way home to China did Africans followed back?? donno but contacts would progressively increase. Did Axum had direct trade or official contacts with China? nothing on record although they did have contacts with India so could be,but again this is not what you guys are talking about is it? you are talking massive movement of Africans into China I saw no evidence of that.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Coxinga's African Bodyguards Swordsmanship was a vital component in the young Coxinga's education, not purely as a skill that a gentleman warranted, but also as a means of self-defence. [His father Nicholas] Iquan had many enemies, among the Dutch, Chinese and Japanese, and China was still reeling from the after-effects of drought and famine. As the son and heir of China's richest man, Coxinga was a valuable prize for kidnappers, and he was assigned minders hand-picked from Iquan's own personal battalion, the Black Guard. When the boy asked his father where he had found such fearsome warriors, Iquan simply replied that they had come from 'beyond the sea'.
Experience had taught Iquan that he could trust nobody; though he may never have known, his own mother had even conspired against him with [Dutch commander] Pieter Nuijts, so his paranoia was wholly justified. His Chinese associates were former pirates whose allegiance was unsure, his family were often out to get whatever they could, and he had long since learned never to trust the barbarians of Europe. Consequently, Iquan recruited the Black Guard from a place that had no relationship to any other country or associate: Africa.
The Black Guard, approximately 500-strong, had once been Negro slaves in the service of the Portuguese, but were now all freed men. Iquan had somehow acquired them in Macao, and had turned them into his own imposing private army. Perhaps some of them were among the slaves who fought so bravely to defend Macao from the Dutch in 1622, freed in the aftermath only to find themselves thousands of miles from home, with no hope of getting back. Others may have defected from the service of the Dutch, though Chinese sources imply that Iquan bought them in Macao and freed them himself. With many of its members unable to speak any language but Portuguese, the Black Guard was Iquan's most trusted unit, and he 'confided more in them than in the Chinese, and always kept them near his person'. Their mere appearance struck fear into his enemies, and rumours spread that even devils had joined Iquan's forces at Anhai: black-skinned giants with strangely curly hair, whose imposing forms were bulked out still further by hefty armour under gaudy silks. Fortunately, the Black Guard did not get to hear of such tales, as they were all devout Catholics, whose war-cry was a blood-curdling scream of Santiago, in praise of their patron St James. http://faroutliers.blogspot.com/2006/01/coxingas-african-bodyguards.html
And add to that the Siddis sailors who operated in the area before the arrival of the Portuguese.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
^^^^ Thanks Brada, You know whats up..I should have said before Africans arrived in China as Slaves. The Word Kunlun began to be associatied with Slaves from Africa but before that it was applied to Dark Skinned non Chinese. Also even before that there was contact and Trade with the Zanj during the Mongol Controlled China.
More
Tang sources do not categorize all people with dark skin as kunlun, however. The Fonner Tang History reports that the residents of the Southeast Asian country of Dandan f t f t "have black coloring," yet the inhabitants are not called kunlun, unlike other descriptions of people from Southeast Asian countries in the same chapter.23 Another word used to describe people with black or dark skin during the Tang is sengchi fifflLt or zengqi itM, transliterations of zanj, the Arabic word for "dark.,,24 Arabs brought these sengchi slaves from East Africa as part of the large-scale maritime trade between the Persian Gulf and China during the Tang, although contemporary Arab sources describing trade with China do not mention slavery.25
Perhaps because of the increasing number of foreign traders and slaves entering China in the eight and ninth centuries, however, one Tang account does expand the meaning of the word kunlun to include not only races of people from Southeast Asia but also these East African zanj (sengchi).27 The Buddhist lexicographer Ruilin includes an entry on "The language of kunlun" in his dictionary Yiqie jing yinyi -m~~{f~ (The Sounds and Meanings of All the Scriptures), compiled between 783 and 820.28 Huilin uses the tenn kunlun as a category to describe dark-skinned people from the islands of the South Pacific:
Kunlun can also be written as gulun. They are the non-Chinese peoples from the east, those from the island states of the Southern Seas. Their bodies are black.... There are many types of them, including the zanj, the turmi, the kurdang, and the khmer. They are all base peoples. These countries lack ritual and propriety. They steal in order to live, and love to feed on humans for food, as if they were some sort of rakshas or a kind of evil ghost. The words they speak do not have any correct meaning at all.... They do extremely well when they enter the water, since they can stay there for a day without dying.29
This is interesting considering Al-Takruri discovery of a Muslim Source listing the Indo Chinese as hosting "Zanj" along with Al Jahiz and Chinese Sources all attest to Indo Chinese Blacks..
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
So Brada-Anansi, now we use novels as sources?
Come to think of it, you're probably right. That is what the youtube generation has brought to science.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Brada I say we should start another thread under a more appropriate Title so we can list all the primary sources of Black Asians. Either that or use the "Asian Blacks" thread...what say you??
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Mike the ball is in your court Brada and I have provided 1st hand sources of non Chinese Asians being described as Blacks, hell some were described as Dark Skinned but not Kunlun. Its up to you to provide primary sources for you claim that China was founded by Africans.
Spammin pictures wont do, provided written first hand account of Chinese being called or calling themselves blacks or associating their origins to Africa..
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: So Brada-Anansi, now we use novels as sources?
Come to think of it, you're probably right. That is what the youtube generation has brought to science.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
An interesting aside Jeri is in the movie Pirates of the Caribbean black pirates were seen co-mingled with lite skinned Asians operating in Asian waters now some may have though it far fetched but that's only because they never took the time out to even look into the matter.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
OK, Give me some time to go get a bite to eat...Im sure you will be up "Late"(It might be Early for you)...I say we should compile sources on Asian Blacks for future use and for researchers.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Clyde Winters
quote:What evidence do you have that there were no African Blacks in ancient China? Please list your evidence.
Asking me to prove a negative? what evidence do you have of massive genetic and cultural Africans living in China to make a difference..post OOA.
Like I said we do have record of African traders,military and diplomats in Asia including China but not the kind of massive cultural influence I think you are talking about.
Lioness Black Asians still lives on the Asian main land and they may have done so until quite recently further to the north. as the silk screen paintings of Mongolians attacking Japanese forces revealed Japanese silk screen of both dark and lite-skinned Mongolian invaders being repulsed.
Chinese silk screen of a Black Mongolian horseman The above are two separate sources. Chinese records of small curly headed blacks and folks like the Shang would be referring to Black Asians as opposed to African migrants from the Nile valley.
Here you go making another statement about who the Shang were. As I said earlier what evidence do you have that they were not African?
Please provide your sources supporting this view.
Are you saying that the only Blacks in China were small and curely haired?
If these were the only Blacks in China please cite the Chinese sources you alledge are known to you.
What evidence do you have that the "curely haired short Blacks " originated in Asia, and not Africa?
You made many statments cite your sources there were no people in China of African origin during Shang and Xia times.
I am waiting. .
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: ^^^^ Thanks Brada, You know whats up..I should have said before Africans arrived in China as Slaves. The Word Kunlun began to be associatied with Slaves from Africa but before that it was applied to Dark Skinned non Chinese. Also even before that there was contact and Trade with the Zanj during the Mongol Controlled China.
More
Tang sources do not categorize all people with dark skin as kunlun, however. The Fonner Tang History reports that the residents of the Southeast Asian country of Dandan f t f t "have black coloring," yet the inhabitants are not called kunlun, unlike other descriptions of people from Southeast Asian countries in the same chapter.23 Another word used to describe people with black or dark skin during the Tang is sengchi fifflLt or zengqi itM, transliterations of zanj, the Arabic word for "dark.,,24 Arabs brought these sengchi slaves from East Africa as part of the large-scale maritime trade between the Persian Gulf and China during the Tang, although contemporary Arab sources describing trade with China do not mention slavery.25
Perhaps because of the increasing number of foreign traders and slaves entering China in the eight and ninth centuries, however, one Tang account does expand the meaning of the word kunlun to include not only races of people from Southeast Asia but also these East African zanj (sengchi).27 The Buddhist lexicographer Ruilin includes an entry on "The language of kunlun" in his dictionary Yiqie jing yinyi -m~~{f~ (The Sounds and Meanings of All the Scriptures), compiled between 783 and 820.28 Huilin uses the tenn kunlun as a category to describe dark-skinned people from the islands of the South Pacific:
Kunlun can also be written as gulun. They are the non-Chinese peoples from the east, those from the island states of the Southern Seas. Their bodies are black.... There are many types of them, including the zanj, the turmi, the kurdang, and the khmer. They are all base peoples. These countries lack ritual and propriety. They steal in order to live, and love to feed on humans for food, as if they were some sort of rakshas or a kind of evil ghost. The words they speak do not have any correct meaning at all.... They do extremely well when they enter the water, since they can stay there for a day without dying.29
This is interesting considering Al-Takruri discovery of a Muslim Source listing the Indo Chinese as hosting "Zanj" along with Al Jahiz and Chinese Sources all attest to Indo Chinese Blacks..
Lol. The Zanj can not be associated with 'small" "curley haired " Blacks. Zanji were Bantu people.
You don't know what you're talking about. pygmies were not referred to as "slaves', or even associted with the Arabs.
This has nothing to do with this thread. we are talking about the period of history when Kemit was strong, i.e., Xia and Shang time.
Post sources that deny an African presence in China during this period.
What name did the Shang and Xia call themselves?
You are only stating an opinion that there were no Africans in China during this period.
Until you cite sources and provide examples you should admit you don't have a clue about ancient Blacks in China.
posted
Nope, it ain't you. I seen this **** happen before to a thread of only 8 pages so size has nothing to do with it.
Unfortunately the GOOGLE cache doesn't have the original first page. But maybe I can get around that and come up with it in a round a bout way.
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000142;p=21 ^^^^^ Hey guys is it me or were a bunch of pages in that thread lost or deleted??
posted
''What evidence do you have that there were no African Blacks in ancient China? Please list your evidence'' ====
There were no blacks in ancient china at all, and the afrocentric 'evidence' that there was is laughable. All they have is some scant legends of some 'black dwarves'.
Posts: 1575 | From: - | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't see any Egyptian or other African origins for Chinese civilization or the indigenous blacks written about in various Chinese authored accounts of their own history as gathered below by Professor Chang Hsing-lang and published by the Catholic University of Peking some of which was related above by other posters.
... let us take account of what certain ancient Chinese works have to say on this subject:
(1) The Lin-yi Kuo Chuan, ("Topography of the Land of Linyi") contained in Book 197 of the Chiu T'ang Shu ("Old Dynastic History of T'ang") says: "The people living to the south of Linyi have woolly hair and black skin, and are commonly known as K'unlun."
In the Chen-la Kuo Chuan ("Topography of the Land of Chen-la") contained in the same volume, we find the following: "Chen-la is situated to the north-west of Lin-yi. It was formerly a dependency of Fu Nan. Its inhabitants belong to the race of K'un-lun."
In Part II of Book 222 of the Hsin Tang Shu ("New Dynastic History of T'ang"), we read: "P'an-p'an is situated on the Gulf of Nan-hai. To the north it is separated from Huanwang by a strait and it is contiguous to Lang-ya-hsiu . . . Its subject tribes are the P'u-lang-so-lan, the K'un-lun Ti-yeh, the K'un-lun Bo-ho, and the K'un-lun Po-ti-so-kan. The tribe last mentioned is also known as the Ku Lung, which is phonetically akin to K'un-lun."
In another part of the same volume, it says: "Fu Nan is situated a distance of 70 li (about 25 English miles) to the south of Jih Nan. The country is low and the climate moist. The people have customs similar to the folk of Huan-wang. In this land are walled towns and palaces. Its king, whose name is Ku-lung, lives in a two-storied structure built upon a raised terrace. The roof is thatched with leaves. When the King goes abroad, he rides on an elephant. The inhabitants have black skin and woolly hair, and they go about naked."
(2) In the Yi Ching Nan-hai Chi Kuei Nei Fa Chuan ("The Code of Esoteric Laws brought back from Nan-hai by Yi Ching"), there is a note to the following effect: "Enumerated in order from west to east, the succession of islands is as follows: Po-lo-shih, Mo-lo-yu (i.e. the Kingdom of Shih-li-fu-yi), Mo-ho-hsin, Ho-ling, Tan-tan, P'an-p'an, Po-li, Chüehlun, Fu-yi-pu-lo, Ah-shan, Mo-chia-man, and innumerable other smaller islands."
In the text proper, to which this note refers, we read: "All these islanders are Buddhists. The majority of them belong to the Hinayana sect, with the exception of a few adherents of the Mahayana sect who live on the island of Mo-lo-yu. As to the size of these countries, some are 100 li, others several hundred li, and some even a hundred horse-stations in circumference. Though it is not easy to estimate distances at sea, still we rely for them on the data furnished by mariners.
The first of these to reach Tonkin and Canton gave to Chüeh-lun the name of K'un-lun. The inhabitants thereof have wooly hair and black skin, but the inhabitants of the other islands are like the Chinese, except that they go about bare-footed and wear a kind of cloth called kanman."
The French Sinologist Chavannes believes that the "Chüeh-lun" of Yi Ching is the same as the land of Lin-yi and Chen-la in the T'ang Shu ("Dynastic History of T'ang"), namely, modern Siam and the Malay Peninsula. But this is hardly tenable in view of the fact that "Chüeh-lun" is distinctly characterized by Yi Ching as an island
[scanner's note: the following is the exact text from the original article and it makes no sense.]
sinologist, identifies Chüeh-lun with Puler Condore. He also affirms that, at the time of Yi Ching's visit, the inhabitants of that island were negroes.
(3) In the "Yi Ching Ta T'ang Hsi Yü Ch'iu Fa Kao Seng Chuan" ("Yi Ching's Biographies of Famous Monks of the Tang Dynasty who went to the West in search of the Law"), the following statement occurs: "When he reached the land of Fo Yi (Sriboga), he learned the Ku-lun language and devoted much time to the study of Sanskrit." Ku-lun is the same as K'un-lun, and the land of Fo Yi is the region of Palembang in Sumatra. From this it appears that the K'un-lun language was by no means confined to Puler Condore.
(4) In the "Man Shu" ("Book about Barbarians"), volume VI, we have the following: "The River Liang Shui flows southwest to join the River Lung. Further south it skirts the highway which goes to the Ch'ing-mu Mountains, and continues southward until it reaches the land of K'un-lun." In the Geographical Section of the Chiu T'ang Shu, mention is made of a district (hsien) called Liang Shui in the county (chou) of Li. In the same volume, we further read: "In the towns of Wei-yuan, Feng-yi, Li-yün, there are over one hundred salt wells. Ten tribes including the Mang-nai-tao and the Hei Ch'ih ("Black Teeth") inhabit the region in question. From this locality a journey of ten days brings the traveller to Yung-ch'ang. Thence it is thirty-days' journey downstream to the land of Mi-ch'en. Further south one reaches the sea, across which it is a three-days' voyage to the land of K'un-lun."
In volume X of the same work, we find the following passage: "The northern frontier of the land of K'un-lun is eighty-one days' journey from the Hsi-erh River in the land of Man (i.e. of the "Barbarians"). The country abounds in ebony, sandalwood, spices, glazed wares, crystal, medicinal herbs, precious stones, rhinoceroses, etc. Once upon a time the Barbarians invaded this land lured on by a feigned retreat of the natives, who cut off their return by digging a moat which they filled with water. As a result most of the Barbarians died of starvation, and, before permitting those who survived to leave, the natives amputated their left forearms as a warning."
(5) In the Wang Wu Tien Chu Kuo Chuan ("A Record of travels in the Five Indies") by Hui Ch'ao, the following statement occurs: "To reach India and K'unlun, one must go by way of Gandahara."
In the section of the same work which treats of Persia, it says: "Voyages from the Western Sea to the Southern Seas are frequently made for the purpose of procuring precious merchandise from Ceylon and gold from K'unlun, and they even sail as far as Canton to secure silk and other textiles."
(6) Book CDLXXXIX of the Sung Shih ("Dynastic History of the Sung") contains the "Cheh-po Kuo Chuan" ("Topography of the Land of Cheh-po"), in which is to be found the following passage: "It is a month's journey from the eastern frontier to the sea, and from the sea it is a voyage of a fortnight to reach the land of Kunlun. A voyage to the west for 45 days, then to the south for 3 days, and finally along the coast for 5 days more, brings the traveler to Arabia."
Hence, according to the data contained in works of the T'ang (A.D. 618-907) and Sung (A.D. 960-1280) dynasties, it would appear that the Land of K'un-lien is identical with modern Siam. These works, however, only describe the inhabitants as being woolly-haired and black-skinned; they nowhere describe them as being ugly nor do they ever make use of the term K'unlun-nu.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
I am talking about Africans. Does this man look like an African to you? [/QB]
Clyde please explain this remark. You are saying the man above does not look African to you.
Please answer the following question:
If the man in the above does not look African why does he not look African? If you follow his origins back in time does it go back to Africa? Conventional theory says that his ancestors once were Africans who lived in Africa and then gradually changed in appearance. If this is not the case then why does this man look not African to you? How did he get that way? [/QB][/QUOTE]
Clyde this is a reasonable question. Don't go angry on me. Up until recently you seemed politer than other people around here.
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Clyde - I think if you take a look at the lay of the land, you will find that it is not worthwhile. Rather than engage in argument while absorbing data, you are dealing with a group whose only agenda is argument for a favored position, all else is ignored, thus nothing is ever learned.
In case you missed it, Jari asserted the Arabs were Mongols and Brada-Anansi is providing novels as historical sources.
You are also wasting your time in trying to provoke thought by demanding that they provide source for their assertion that there were no ancient Blacks in China.
If they had the ability, or inclination to research an answer to that question, they would have already done so.
BTW - I notice Lioness is still promoting her they all became White, or White-like by evolution scheme. I'm beginning to think that the reason the forum has become intellectually moribund is not as it appears - because they're stupid, but perhaps because it is filled with Mulattoes intent on establishing that they are unique manifestations of humanity, and not mulattoes at all.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Mike are you suggesting Egyptsearch is not worthwhile anymore? or just in need of attention?
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
THE IMPORTATION OF NEGRO SLAVES TO CHINA UNDER THE TANG DYNASTY (A. D. 618-901) By Professor Chang Hsing-lang
(1) The term used to designate Negro Slaves under the T'ang dynasty. Neither the name of Africa nor the term "negro slave" was known in China during the period of the Tang dynasty, but we often encounter the term K'un-lun-nu ("K'un-lun slave") in the individual works of T'ang authors that have come to us as parts of the following Ts'ung-shu ("Collections of Reprints") : "T'ang-jen Shuo-k'uai"; "T'ai-p'ing K'uang-chi"; "Ku-chin Shuo-hai" etc. These works generally describe the K'un-lun-nu as black-skinned folk. Some of the aforesaid authors even use the term K'un-lun adjectivially as a synonym for black-, or dark-skinned. Others use it as an equivalent for "Negro." What then is the meaning of the term K'un-lun, and who were the K'unlan-nu? (2) The location of the Land of K'un-lun. To throw light on the above question, let us take account of what certain ancient Chinese works have to say on this subject : (1) The Lin-yi Kuo Chuan, ("Topography of the Land of Linyi") contained in Book 197 of the Chiu T'ang Shu ("Old Dynastic History of T'ang") says: "The people living to the south of Linyi have woolly hair and black skin, and are commonly known as K'unlun." In the Chen-la Kuo Chuan ("Topography of the Land of Chen-la") contained in the same volume, we find the following: "Chen-la is situated to the north-west of Lin-yi. It was formerly a dependency of Fu Nan. Its inhabitants belong to the race of K'un-lun." In Part II of Book 222 of the Hsin Tang Shu ("New Dynastic History of T'ang"), we read : "P'an-p'an is situated on the Gulf of Nan-hai. To the north it is separated from Huanwang by a strait and it is contiguous to Lang-ya-hsiu . . . Its subject tribes are the P'u-lang-so-lan, the K'un-lun Ti-yeh, the K'un-lun Bo-ho, and the K'un-lun Po-ti-so-kan. The tribe last mentioned is also known as the Ku Lung, which is phonetically akin to K'un-lun." In another part of the same volume, it
for the rest of the essay:
google the title:
THE IMPORTATION OF NEGRO SLAVES TO CHINA UNDER THE TANG DYNASTY (A. D. 618-901)
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
I am talking about Africans. Does this man look like an African to you? [/QB]
Clyde please explain this remark. You are saying the man above does not look African to you.
Please answer the following question:
If the man in the above does not look African why does he not look African? If you follow his origins back in time does it go back to Africa? Conventional theory says that his ancestors once were Africans who lived in Africa and then gradually changed in appearance. If this is not the case then why does this man look not African to you? How did he get that way?
quote:Clyde this is a reasonable question. Don't go angry on me. Up until recently you seemed politer than other people around here.
You answered your own question when you aknowledged that he must be a descendant of the OOA population based on your interpretation of the "Coventional Theory".
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Clyde - I think if you take a look at the lay of the land, you will find that it is not worthwhile. Rather than engage in argument while absorbing data, you are dealing with a group whose only agenda is argument for a favored position, all else is ignored, thus nothing is ever learned.
In case you missed it, Jari asserted the Arabs were Mongols and Brada-Anansi is providing novels as historical sources.
You are also wasting your time in trying to provoke thought by demanding that they provide source for their assertion that there were no ancient Blacks in China.
If they had the ability, or inclination to research an answer to that question, they would have already done so.
BTW - I notice Lioness is still promoting her they all became White, or White-like by evolution scheme. I'm beginning to think that the reason the forum has become intellectually moribund is not as it appears - because they're stupid, but perhaps because it is filled with Mulattoes intent on establishing that they are unique manifestations of humanity, and not mulattoes at all.
Mike you are right. They don't know anything about Blacks in ancient China. They believe the myth that the only Blacks in China were slaves.
posted
Clyde - I am currently researching the modern Turkish nations founding myth, the "Sun theory".
In the Turkish Nations creation myth (a modern country with a creation myth?). From tomes: a large or scholarly book, produced by the Ministry of Education in 1932; Turks are taught that at the dawn of history, their ancestors, led by a mythical gray she-wolf, started migrating outwards from the heart of Central Asia. As the numbers of their people swelled and droughts dried the traditional grazing lands on the steppe, some of them, they are told, even crossed the Bering Strait into the Americas. Presumably becoming the American Indians. In his later years, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk (the founder of the modern Turkey nation), himself adopted a creed known as the "Sun Theory", which depicts the Turks as the mother race of all mankind, and proposed that all human languages are descendants of one proto-Turkic primal language.
Though the theory may sound outlandish, in my opinion, there is justification, and anecdotal evidence, for believing that at least the "North American Indian" was a Turk mulatto).
The problem is that the terms Turk and Hun are used for widely disparate peoples. Though we know that the Turks ranged well into east Asia, it is hard to pin down who is who and when.
I found this interesting timeline for the Tang. The problem is that I can't tell who is Black and who is White. If you can offer any insight, it would be gratefully appreciated.
BTW - Lioness the idiot is quoting the article (NOT a study, an article). THE IMPORTATION OF NEGRO SLAVES TO CHINA UNDER THE TANG DYNASTY (A. D. 618-901) By Professor Chang Hsing-lang
Which ends with this statement:
The fact that in T'ang folklore the demons (servants of the fairies) are described as having K'un-lun features, shows that the ugliness of the negro, to which Marco Polo so graphically alludes in chapter XXXIV of Book III of His Travels, had become proverbial among the Chinese.
Energy just opened a thread: Who has the Lowest Self-Esteem; Blacks or Asians?
This idiot bunch couldn't add 2+2 and get 4 to save their lives.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I know that the Bering straits were crossed thousands of years earlier, I'm just trying to get an idea of who was where at this time, and then try to extrapolate backward.
This is the timeline
Major Events of Tang in Central Asia
Time Events 597 Li, Shi-min, Tai-tsung born. 624 Tai-tsung ascended the throne on September 4. 626 Eastern Turks from Outer Mongolia crossed the Gobi and advanced on Ch'ang-an led by Turkish leader, Hsieh-li Kaghan. They failed to take the capital and asked for peace with Tang. 629-644 Xuan Zang, a Buddhist pilgrim, traveled the Silk Road to India. 630-682 Khanate of the Eastern Turks remained subject to China 632 Khotan surrended to Tang in 632 and the king sent his son to serve the Tang's imperial guard in 635. 640 Turfan revolted and defeated by Tai-tsung's army. 641 Tai-tsung planned an interrmarriage between Tang's princess wen-chen and Tibetan king. Chinese culture began to infiltrate among the Tibetans. 643 Tai-tsung sent an ambassador to India to the emperor Harcha. 644 The general Kuo Ksiao-ke led Tang army and conquered Karashar. 646-648 Kucha allied with Karashar against Tang, but failed. 649 Tai-tsung's death 665 the Western Turks came out in open rebellion. 670 The Tibetans took over the kingdoms in the Tarim basin including Kucha, Karashar, Kashgar and Khotan - the "Four Garrisons" of the Chinese. 692 Wu Tse-tien, Tang's female emperor recovered the Tarim basin and won back the "Four Garrisons". 706 The Turks of Mongolia led by Kultegin continued their ravages and won a great victory against the Chinese at Ning-hsia. 709 The Arabs imposed their suzerainty ont he kings of Bukhara and Samarkand. 712-714 The Arabs reached Tashkent and penetrated into Ferghana. 714 Tang won a victory near Tokmak over the Western Turks. 715 Tang army entered Ferghana and drove away the Arabs. 716 Bekchor (Mo-chueh), ruler of the Mongolian Turks, was killed and his head sent to the Chinese court. 721-722 Bekchor's nephew, Bilga Kaghan made brief peace with Tang. 736-744 Tang won further victories against various rebellious Turkish khans in the Ili Valley, south of Lake Balkhash. 743-744 Mongolian Turks was overthrown by Uigurs Turks, who established their headquarters on the upper Orkhon, where their capital occupied the present site of Karabalghasun -- "the black city" -- near the present day Karakorum. The Uigurs were later to prove faithful allies of the Tang. 747 Kuo Tzu-i, a Korean in the service of Tang's court, established a Chinese protectorate over Gilgit. 748 A Chinese temple was built at Tokmak. Karashar, Kucha, Khoan and Kashgar once more became faithful vassals to Tang. 750 Kuo Tzu-i's army helped Tokharestan (Balkh) against Tibetans. 751 Kuo Tzu-i army was annihilated on the banks of the Talas, near present day Aulie Ata, by the united Turkish and Arab forces. The battle decided the fate of Central Asia; instead of becoming Chinese, it was to become Muslem. 756 An Lu-shan revolted and occupied Ch'ang-an on July 18. 757 With the help of Uigurs, emperor Su-tsung restored Ch'ang-an and Loyang. 762 Second rebel captured Loyang a second time. The ruler of the Uigurs himself came down from Mongolia with his cavalry and saved Tang. 762-840 Several Tang princesses were sent to the Uigur court in marrage. 840 The Uigurs were overthrown by the Kirghiz Turks.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Mike Coxinga is not a fictional character he is in fact central to Taiwanese history the book is in paper back form does not mean it's fiction if you would read up on the countries of interest instead of Albinoiziding everyone you would have already known this.
DR. Winters no one said that Blacks or Africans were only in China as slaves that's your wording please check my post.. but slaves including blacks and African were to be found, it's like don't mention Africans or blacks as slaves as if it's something taboo or shameful you know what?? Zheng He was a Muslim and a slave yet he is a hero to most Chinese and slaves including Blacks and African were not exactly digging ditches and especially the Africans they often rose in ranks to take over a kingdom or two or trade routes lots of interesting and colorful history there...I feel no need to duck it.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
I am talking about Africans. Does this man look like an African to you?
Clyde please explain this remark. You are saying the man above does not look African to you.
Please answer the following question:
If the man in the above does not look African why does he not look African? If you follow his origins back in time does it go back to Africa? Conventional theory says that his ancestors once were Africans who lived in Africa and then gradually changed in appearance. If this is not the case then why does this man look not African to you? How did he get that way?
quote:Clyde this is a reasonable question. Don't go angry on me. Up until recently you seemed politer than other people around here.
You answered your own question when you aknowledged that he must be a descendant of the OOA population based on your interpretation of the "Coventional Theory".
. [/QB]
If you agree that if one follows this man's ancestry back far enough it leads to Africa, then what is the reason in your opinion, he does not look African? How did this happen, not what is based on my interpretation, how did it happen that that he looks different in your interpretation?
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Actually there is a ton of evidence pointing to the existence of blacks in China as far back as the Paleolithic. One of the most eminent anthropologists K C Chang said that the Dawenkou culture,considered to be a precursor culture was largely African:K.C. Chang, The archaeology of ancient China, (Yale University Press:New Haven,1977) p.76)
quote:
Negroid skeletons dating to the early periods of Southern Chinese history have been found in Shangdong, Jiantung, Sichuan, Yunnan, Pearl River delta and Jiangxi especially at the initial sites of Chingliengang (Ch’ing-lien-kang) and Mazhiabang (Ma chia-pang) phases Here is much later craniometrics from the China National Knowledge Infrastructure project:
quote:
The fur-ther comparison of Neolithic Man with Modern Man in China (including inhabitants of Northern China, Fujian province and Hainan island) is made, also based on the main index values and total prognathism of skull, showing that the development of the physi-cal characteristics of Chinese is a genetic and successive course from Later Paleolithic Man to Modern Man via Neolithic Man. [I][/I] Thus, so-called negroid-Australoid racial traits, such as the narrow and long cranial pattern, heigh vaulted crania, lower orbit, wide nose and some projective prognathism (from the morphological observations), themsel-ves are intrinsic characteristics of Neolithic Man in China, only there is a little diffe-rentia in the degrees of display of these traits among groups. http://en.cnki.com.c...XB198602001.htm Also the late Neolithic Australoids practiced African customs still seen today.Skull binding and teeth ablation.
quote:
Their racial type is Mongoloid and just as in the case of Ta-w(?)n-k'ou bears a certain resemblance to the Polynesian cranium type.The latter is attri-buted to a sub-division of the Southern Mongoloid.The incidence of cranial deformation among the males of Hsia-hsia-hou is only fiftyper cent as against the nearly one hundred per cent of Ta-w(?)n-k'ou.The cranial defor-mation among the females is one hundred per cent at both sites.The pre-mortem loss ofthe lateral incisors at Hsi-hsia-hou is similar to Ta-w(?)n-k'ou and probably resulted froma ritual practice in initiation rites.The incidence of ablation of teeth at Hsi-hsia-hou isthirty three per cent among the males and sixty seven per cent among the female http://en.cnki.com.c...XB197302007.htm There are definite topological parallels with W.African and Chinese languages. The last group to be assimilated by the Han,the Qiang of N.Szechuan left extremely interesting traces of their original language which have persisted until now.
quote:
Their tonal type is African ,specifically Dagaare ,spoken in Ghana as far as Burkina Faso. The language is of the Niger-Congo family Contrastive levels of tone in some Niger-Congo languages H, L Dyula–Bambara, Maninka, Temne, Dogon, Dagbani, Gbaya, Efik, Lingala H, M, L Yakuba, Nafaanra, Kasem, Banda, Yoruba, Jukun, Dangme, Yukuben, Akan, Anyi, Ewe, Igbo T, H, M, L Gban, Wobe, Munzombo, Igede, Mambila, Fon T, H, M, L, B Ashuku (Benue-Congo), Dan-Santa (Mande) PA/S Mandinka (Senegambia), Fula, Wolof, Kimwani none Swahili Abbreviations used: T top, H high, M mid, L low, B bottom, PA/S pitch-accent or stress Adapted from Williamson 1989:27 http://en.wikipedia....Congo_languages I don't usually use wikipedia but in this case we can accept their findings. Here's the study on African tonals used by Qiang:http://sinica.academia.edu/JonathanEvans/Papers/167301/African_tone_in_the_Sinosphere In 10 out of 12 respects such as language floating tones,toneless syllable pitches,contour structure, default tone pattern etc it is more African than Asian.The Qiang are extremely important for their famous oracle bone script they say is from the Shang.
quote:
Although now a minor segment of the population, the Qiang is commonly believed to be a very old people whose history can be traced to the Shang dynasty (Gu 1980; Ren, Li, & Zhou 1984). It is also believed to be a once strong and populous group whose offspring can now be found among, besides the Qiang in northwestern Sichuan, the Han, the Tibetans, and many minorities in southwestern China (Ran, Li, and Zhou 1984). http://ultra.ihp.sin...barbarbook4.htm The evidence is of an ancient African presence in China IMHO is overwhelming.
Posts: 55 | From: nairobi | Registered: Jul 2011
| IP: Logged |
There are few here with an interest in China. So though I know nothing of your background and knowledge, you will still be inundated, simply because there are few alternatives.
Have you gotten a fix on the exact nature of the Han? They are of course mulattoes, but of who?
Please note:
Shang = normal African Black.
Qin = Black Mongol with straight hair (the skin coloring is life-like).
African with the same features but with non-straight hair. (I know of no existing Africans with Mongol features and straight hair).
The reality of the modern Han is captured in this photo.
But who are the old mans ancestors, and where are their ancestors in Africa.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic