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It would be a mistake to make something out of this. He's obviously talking about his experiences. Big deal. It is not unusual for hispanics to criticize their own just as blacks criticize their own "wanna be thugs" when they have bad experiences with them. Petty criminals and violent thugs aren't rare for lower income "minority" groups (blacks and latino) and to deny this is as disingenuous and silly as Martin's Family lawyer trying to make something out of this. He should tread carefully. They considered Trayvon's retarded tweeter exchanges and school rap as off limits and not relevant, now look at him. LOL Hypocrites. Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: It would be a mistake to make something out of this. He's obviously talking about his experiences. Big deal. It is not unusual for hispanics to criticize their own just as blacks criticize their own "wanna be thugs" when they have bad experiences with them. Petty criminals and violent thugs aren't rare for lower income "minority" groups (blacks and latino) and to deny this is as disingenuous and silly as Martin's Family lawyer trying to make something out of this. He should tread carefully. They considered Trayvon's retarded tweeter exchanges and school rap as off limits and not relevant, now look at him. LOL Hypocrites.
I didn't try to make anything out of it, like you do! Posts: 197 | From: 5th Dynasty Abusir Temple | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by facts: There is nothing to this. He is speaking to his experience with Mexicans.
Goes to show you clowns try to make something out of Martin Facebook page, but when it comes to Zimmerman profiling a$$, its nothing to it.....the nerve of you people. Posts: 197 | From: 5th Dynasty Abusir Temple | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: It would be a mistake to make something out of this. He's obviously talking about his experiences. Big deal. It is not unusual for hispanics to criticize their own just as blacks criticize their own "wanna be thugs" when they have bad experiences with them. Petty criminals and violent thugs aren't rare for lower income "minority" groups (blacks and latino) and to deny this is as disingenuous and silly as Martin's Family lawyer trying to make something out of this. He should tread carefully. They considered Trayvon's retarded tweeter exchanges and school rap as off limits and not relevant, now look at him. LOL Hypocrites.
Ha ha ha. Look at Angelina, hastily coming to the aid of her master.
quote:It would be a mistake to make something out of this. He's obviously talking about his experiences.
I take it, he was also ''just talking about experiences'', when he bragged about getting away with attacking a law enforcer?
quote:and also referred triumphantly to his escape from 2005 legal troubles stemming from his confrontation with law enforcement officers.
lol!
Uncle Toms such as yourself never fail to entertain.
quote:Originally posted by facts: There is nothing to this. He is speaking to his experience with Mexicans.
Yeah, as if it is even remotely possible to have had violent altercations with every Mexican you meet. He went on record calling the cops for things as trivial as people doing wheelies, potholes, and trashbags, but not for having been threatened with knifes by every Mexican he has met? GTFOH.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Neferefre: I didn't try to make anything out of it, like you do!
Yeh, and that's why you gleefully posted it, cause there's noting to see here. LOL!
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: It would be a mistake to make something out of this. He's obviously talking about his experiences. Big deal. It is not unusual for hispanics to criticize their own just as blacks criticize their own "wanna be thugs" when they have bad experiences with them. Petty criminals and violent thugs aren't rare for lower income "minority" groups (blacks and latino) and to deny this is as disingenuous and silly as Martin's Family lawyer trying to make something out of this. He should tread carefully. They considered Trayvon's retarded tweeter exchanges and school rap as off limits and not relevant, now look at him. LOL Hypocrites.
Ha ha ha. Look at Angelina, hastily coming to the aid of her master.
quote:It would be a mistake to make something out of this. He's obviously talking about his experiences.
I take it, he was also ''just talking about experiences'', when he bragged about getting away with attacking a law enforcer?
quote:and also referred triumphantly to his escape from 2005 legal troubles stemming from his confrontation with law enforcement officers.
lol!
Uncle Toms such as yourself never fail to entertain.
Uncle Tom? Ah, I do believe it was you who triumphantly claimed some time ago that Europeans "invented science". It sounded like something straight from CT talking points book. So bytch please STFU about the "uncle toms".
"The man knows he was wrong," <--- that is "bragging"? LOL
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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maxine is going to take over the world. that all i gotta say about it for now Posts: 1819 | From: odesco baba | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Uncle Tom? Ah, I do believe it was you who triumphantly claimed some time ago that Europeans "invented science".
Dumb ass, explain what is uncle tom about that? Last time I checked, uncle toms are systematically in defense of their massah, like you are whenever someone cites sources in support of the notion that Euro's are 1/3 African.
Don't get your ass kicked like the last time you were scrambling to explain why 'nmr' was universally accepted to read 'Narmer', with the added unsubstantiated bonus of people (including you) believing he was historical, while all the while not applying the same for historical sources that read 'dwd'.
quote:Our intuitions about the way the world works are not all in our genes. They largely arose about three hundred years ago with the revolution in thinking that was started by Copernicus and Galileo and essentially completed by Newton.
Quantum Enigma - Bruce Rosenblum, Fred Kuttner
Show me where this revolution in thinking - i.e., concertedly rejecting intuitive whim driven philosophy in favor of systematic experimental verification - occurred before Galileo. The previous times you had someone else doing most of the arguing, while you were straddling the sidelines, like a true cheerleader. The stage is all yours now; show me where this revolution preceded Galileo.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:ast time I checked, uncle toms are systematically in defense of their massah, like you are whenever someone cites sources in support of the notion that Euro's are 1/3 African.
It's rubbish. Those "sources" dumbo use racist notions of what is a "black race", "white race", "yellow race" among other "notions" that Prof. Keita described as fundamentally unsound. It is you, and the dumbo clan that keeps spamming it, who are the real Eurocentrics.
quote:Don't get your ass kicked like the last time you were scrambling to explain why 'nmr' was universally accepted to read 'Narmer',
We went through this zealot in another thread, I do believe the ball was in your court to present the group of scholars that rejected that interpretation of Narmer inscription as we find those who reject the so-called "evidence" for your mythical Jewish King.
quote:Show me where this revolution in thinking - i.e., concertedly rejecting intuitive whim driven philosophy in favor of systematic experimental verification - occurred before Galileo.
Dufus, "scientific thinking" is simply doing what works. There would have been no advance in civilization, no building, water irrigation techniques etc if it wasn't for this sort of thinking. There was certainly no "invention" of science. My god how dumb and Tomish can you be? You think Copernicus and Galileo came about in a vaccum??? And your dumbass calls me the tom???? HAHAHHAHAHAHALOLOL
P.S. I noticed you have finally given a date or period for your "invention" of science by whites. Before when asked you had refused to be pinned down to a specific date. LOL! Pathetic fool.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:It's rubbish. Those "sources" dumbo use racist notions of what is a "black race", "white race", "yellow race" among other "notions" that Prof. Keita described as fundamentally unsound. It is you, and the dumbo clan that keeps spamming it, who are the real Eurocentrics.
You’re only proving how deprived you are in anthropological matters. Keita himself, in fact, has made arguments similar to the one damn near calling anti-Keita. I suppose Keita is a Eurocentric too? LOL.
quote:We went through this zealot in another thread, I do believe the ball was in your court to present the group of scholars that rejected that interpretation of Narmer inscription as we find those who reject the so-called "evidence" for your mythical Jewish King.
How can that ball be in my court, when it is in fact my argument that bias leads scholars to arbitrarily flock to the position that ‘nrm’ automatically reads Narmer, and that they measure with a different ruler when it comes to biblical scriptures? Why would I present a group of scholars who don’t do what you want me to prove they do, when I don’t even believe they do it? The fact that they don’t do it, is precisely the point, dumb ho’.
quote:Dufus, "scientific thinking" is simply doing what works.
So, a dog, that has been taught a skill, and gets particularly good at it, can be thought of as a scientist? You’ll have to explain to me how that works, lol.
quote:There would have been no advance in civilization, no building, water irrigation techniques etc if it wasn't for this sort of thinking.
Bullshit. Science is not concerned with building things, but rather, with asking questions and systematically narrowing down possibilities. All the things you mention are the result of cultural evolution brought about by accident and/or pressures in the environment, or simply creativity, certainly not by systematically applying the scientific method.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Trayvon family hosting a $200/plate dinner to mount a civil suit against Zimmerman. LOL!! Milk that cow-bitch dry!
Posts: 816 | Registered: Oct 2011
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quote:Keita himself, in fact, has made arguments similar to the one damn near calling anti-Keita.
"arguments similar" LOL! Been here, done this. Go back to the endless threads debating this. Unlike you dumbos, Keita does not mindlessly parrot those specific claims of the Bowcock study.
quote:How can that ball be in my court, when it is in fact my argument that bias leads scholars to arbitrarily flock to the position that ‘nrm’ automatically reads Narmer, and that they measure with a different ruler when it comes to biblical scriptures? Why would I present a group of scholars who don’t do what you want me to prove they do, when I don’t even believe they do it? The fact that they don’t do it, is precisely the point, dumb ho’.
Yep, still no reply. Constant bytching and appeals to emotions don't count.
quote:Bullshit. Science is not concerned with building things, but rather, with asking questions and systematically narrowing down possibilities. All the things you mention are the result of cultural evolution brought about by accident and/or pressures in the environment, or simply creativity, certainly not by systematically applying the scientific method.
LOL What a jackass. The improvement of technologies, knowledge of the body, medicine etc can only come about by the "narrowing down possibilities", doing what works. This is not comparable to dogs being taught a trick ( ). Copernicus and Galileo represent a stage in scientific development, not that they "invented" it. Even today with all the advances, its still only a stage in the development. Jesus fool, why are you even trying to beat this horse? It's fuking dead. Give up. LOL
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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They ought to get as much as they can--all because of that killer Zimmerman.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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LOL, Europeans did invent "Modern" Science unless Anguish can provide the accounts of Ancient Egyptian and Sumarian "Biologists" and Ecologists etc. The way Africans looked at science is totally different than the modern approach aka the European approach.
How is that being an Uncle tom??
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Are we talking about "Modern" Science or Science in general. If the Former then it is certainly a European creation, no Africans went around claiming to be "Biologists" or "Astronomists" etc Science was never a separate field of study for most Africans and many times Religion and Science went hand in hand, unlike Modern Science
and to ask "When" Europeans invented it is a strawman IMO, there were no set dates just a continuation of ideas.
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: There was certainly no "invention" of science. My god how dumb and Tomish can you be? You think Copernicus and Galileo came about in a vaccum??? And your dumbass calls me the tom???? HAHAHHAHAHAHALOLOL
P.S. I noticed you have finally given a date or period for your "invention" of science by whites. Before when asked you had refused to be pinned down to a specific date. LOL! Pathetic fool.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Jari, You are wrong: "modern science" is not a European invention. What you should say is that many of the advances made in modern[ post 17th century] science were made by a small number of persons in Western Europe. Mainly from Britain, France, Germany, Holland--mainly countries that were heavily involved in the Atlantic slave business. The Spaniards and Portugese lost out because they thought that gold would solve all their problems.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Note that most of the foundations of modern science were of Ancient Egyptian origin--see Frances Yeates's Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition--from heliocentrism to Newton's Mechanics.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: Jari, You are wrong: "modern science" is not a European invention. What you should say is that many of the advances made in modern[ post 17th century] science were made by a small number of persons in Western Europe. Mainly from Britain, France, Germany, Holland--mainly countries that were heavily involved in the Atlantic slave business. The Spaniards and Portugese lost out because they thought that gold would solve all their problems.
Hmmm, I never looked at it like that. But you do have a point there.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: [QB] Jari, You are wrong: "modern science" is not a European invention. What you should say is that many of the advances made in modern[ post 17th century] science were made by a small number of persons in Western Europe. Mainly from Britain, France, Germany, Holland--mainly countries that were heavily involved in the Atlantic slave business.
How in particular does the slave trade relate to modern advances in science?
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Anguish and Swenet's positions are not mutually exclusive. Empirical observation, experimentation and verification was well developed in Asia and indeed in other parts of the world before the rise of Europe in the modern age. It is in Europe that systematization, classification, and development of a field of study divorced from magic and religion has been pushed ahead furthest again, in terms of a continuum. Anguish's continuum model has some merit, on the balance.
We should also keep in mind that numerous things used in "modern science" were not originally invented in Europe. Europeans copied or borrowed writing from other s for example, as they did the wheel, crucial plant and animal domesticates that revolutionied human culture. None of these things were invented in Europe nor were printing, powered machinery, algebra, trigonometry, the compass, etc etc Joseph Needham's massive st of volumes - "Science and Civilisation In China" shows numerous advances by the CHinese well ahead of "the West" until comparatively recent centuries.
The volumes Vol./ Part Title Writer/Contributors Date Notes 1 Introductory Orientations Joseph Needham, Wang Ling (ra) 1954 2 History of Scientific Thought Joseph Needham, Wang Ling (ra) 1956 OCLC 3 Mathematics and the Sciences of the Heavens and Earth Joseph Needham, Wang Ling (ra) 1959 OCLC 4/01 Physics Joseph Needham, Wang Ling (ra), Kenneth Robinson (coop) 1962 OCLC 4/02 Mechanical Engineering Joseph Needham, Wang Ling (co) 1965 4/03 Civil Engineering and Nautics Joseph Needham, Wang Ling (co), Lu Gwei-djen (co) 1971 5/01 Paper and Printing Tsien Tsuen-Hsuin 1985 5/02 Spagyrical Discovery and Invention: Magisteries of Gold and Immortality Joseph Needham, Lu Gwei-djen (co) 1974 5/03 Spagyrical Discovery and Invention: Historical Survey, from Cinnabar Elixirs to Synthetic Insulin Joseph Needham, Ho Ping-Yu [Ho Peng-Yoke] (co), Lu Gwei-djen (co) 1976 5/04 Spagyrical Discovery and Invention: Apparatus and Theory Joseph Needham, Lu Gwei-djen (co), Nathan Sivin (con) 1980 5/05 Spagyrical Discovery and Invention: Physiological Alchemy Joseph Needham, Lu Gwei-djen (co) 1983 5/06 Military Technology: Missiles and Sieges Joseph Needham, Robin D.S. Yates (co), Krzysztof Gawlikowski (co), Edward McEwen (co), Wang Ling (co) 1994 5/07 Military Technology: The Gunpowder Epic Joseph Needham, Ho Ping-Yu [Ho Peng-Yoke] (co), Lu Gwei-djen (co), Wang Ling (co) 1987 5/08 Work in progress Volume editor/contributors unknown 20__? 5/09 Textile Technology: Spinning and Reeling Dieter Kuhn 1986 5/10 Work in progress Volume editor/contributors unknown 20__? 5/11 Ferrous Metallurgy Donald B. Wagner 2008 5/12 Ceramic Technology Rose Kerr, Nigel Wood, Ts'ai Mei-fen (con), Zhang Fukang (con) 2004 5/13 Mining Peter Golas 1999 6/01 Botany Joseph Needham, Lu Gwei-djen (co), Huang Hsing-Tsung (con) 1986 6/02 Agriculture Francesca Bray 1984 6/03 Agroindustries and Forestry Christian A. Daniels, Nicholas K. Menzies 1996 6/04 Work in progress Volume editor/contributors unknown 20__? 6/05 Fermentations and Food Science Huang Hsing-Tsung 2000 6/06 Medicine Joseph Needham, Lu Gwei-djen, Nathan Sivin (ed) 2000 7/01 Language and Logic Christoph Harbsmeier 1998 7/02 General Conclusions and Reflections Joseph Needham, Kenneth Girdwood Robinson (ed), Ray Huang (co), Mark Elvin (intro) 2004 OCLC p---------------------------------------------------------------------------
FROM THE ARCHIVES Some argue for Greeks as the fount of all things good and advanced as in the 2005 piece below by Bruce Thornton. But on closer examination this "Greek defence" is questionable on several counts.
Thus, while all ancient societies kept slaves and viewed slavery as a natural, unexceptional practice, only the Greeks made slavery an object of thought. This thinking could lead to a theoretical justification of slavery, as in Aristotle's view of the "natural" slave, the person who by a deficiency of rational self-control could be justly owned and controlled by another. But thinking critically about slavery could also lead to questioning the justice of such an institution, as the early 4th century BC rhetorician Alcidamas did when he said, "The god gave freedom to all men, and nature created no one a slave."
All well and good, but if there was all this so-called “critical thinking” about slavery, it did not lead the Greeks to abolish slavery. To the contrary, they embraced slavery and even the mighty Spartans kept the bulk of their population the helots, in semi-slavery. The author is overstating his case. He says: “all ancient societies kept slaves and viewed slavery as a natural, unexceptional practice..” Sure, but so did the Greeks. An obscure rhetorician saying men should be free means little. What counts is actual practice on the ground. In this, the Greeks are nothing special. They embraced slavery. Trying to make them out as ancient “abolitionists” by insinuation is a dubious exercise.
Or consider war. All ancient peoples made war on their neighbors, competing violently for territory and wealth and honor. So too the Greeks. But to an extent unthinkable for any other ancient people, they thought and wrote about war analytically, so to speak, pondering its meaning and consequences, its complexities and horrors. Nowhere else in the ancient world can one find a work of literature like Aeschylus's Persians, about the Battle of Salamis in 480 BC, when the mighty Persian invading armada was destroyed by the coalition of Greek city-states. Although performed a mere eight years later in the very city, Athens, burned by the invaders, in front of an audience of veterans and those who had lost friends and family, the play sympathetically depicts the effects of the defeat on the Persians.
Again, the case is overstated. The Greeks thought and wrote about war “analytically” but so did numerous other peoples, like the Chinese Sun Tsu, or the Byzantine generals in their military treatises. The author is creating a false Eurocentric standard- that in essence says- if other peoples did not frame their writings like the Greeks, then they were not really engaging in “critical thought” or “critical thinking. This is what he is insinuating and it is baloney.
Not only could the Greeks be generous to an enemy, but they could examine critically their own wartime behavior. During the Peloponnesian War between Athens and Sparta, Euripides produced plays that sympathetically portrayed the disastrous effects of Athenian policies, and laid bare the suffering, moral corruption, and dehumanizing passions unleashed by war. A mere nine months after the Athenians massacred the males of the Greek island Melos and enslaved the women and children, Euripides staged The Trojan Women (415 BC). In that play he used the brutal aftermath of the mythic Trojan War and the suffering of the surviving women to comment on recent Athenian behavior
^All well and good, but how is this any different fundamentally from Chinese texts critically examining wartime behavior, or bewailing the disasters wrought by Mongol or other “Barbarian” invasions? How is it fundamentally different from the themes on war seen in Ancient Egyptian literature or the numerous stories, dialogs, themes and discourses, etc seen therein? They covered irony, lament, and a host of otther thing, as well as all the classic questions of life and death in religious writings. Again, the Greeks are nothing special fundamentally on these matters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_literature
. The princess Cassandra movingly describes this price of war—the sons never returning home, the children left orphaned, the wives bereft of protection and support—and with bitter irony finishes, "For such success as this congratulate the Greeks." How could any Athenian in the audience not think of the Melian wives and children they had sold into slavery less than a year earlier?
Again, all well and good, but if the Greeks were so Concerned about slavery why did they continue slavery unabated throughout their “golden age”?
In fact as one historian notes- the Greeks more than liked slavery particularly if OTHER people could be enslaved. Far from being proto “abolitionists” the Greeks had a clear sense of racial or ethnic superiority that explicitly justified the enslavement of other peoples. Quote: "there was a widespread belief, probably originating in the years following the defeat of the Persian expeditionary force in the years 280-479 that Asiatic races in particularly (but also more northerly peoples like the Thracians and the Scythians) were intellectually and morally inferior to Greeks and ideally suited to slavery." -- J. Dillon 2004. Morality and custom in ancient Greece
According to passages within the Hippocratic treatise, ( Air, Water, Places, a Greek 5th century work: ”The small variations of climate to which the Asiatics are subject, extremes both of heart and cold being avoided, account for mental flabbiness and cowardice as well. They are less warlike than and tamer of spirit, for they are not subject to those physical changes and the mental stimulation which sharpens, tempers and induces recklessness.. Instead they live under unvarying conditions." -- Dillon 2004).
Such a statement is similar to the racist statements by not only 18, or 19th century Aryanists, but 20th /21stcentury ones as well including numerous "biodiversity" racists like JP Rushton. Critics of the Greeks who accuse them of setting the stage for Western racism can thus point to several strands of Greek thought and writing in partial support of this thesis. The author conveniently avoids this less than flattering information about the Greeks.
These generous and self-critical attitudes—unprecedented in the ancient world—are a dividend of critical consciousness, the ability to step back from the passions and prejudices of the moment and look at events from a larger perspective that illuminates the common human condition, the way even an enemy suffers and grieves just as we do. Again, dubious if based on cherry-picked quotes form ancient writings. Other quotes show the Greeks didn’t care much about others suffering and indeed welcomed the opportunity to enslave them.
Indeed as historians show- the Greek attitude towards slaves as shown in their theatrical productions were callous and unsympathetic, a far cry from the “proto-abolitionism” the author seems to insinuate: - quote: ” "What is more relevant to our present purpose though, is the remarkable callousness, from our point of view, which characterizes the portrayal of slave existence and the slave mentality in Greek comedy." --Dillon 2004
As the Greek examination of war and slavery shows, critical consciousness can lead to the improvement and reform of human institutions and behavior, for once the mind is liberated from the authority of tradition or the supernatural, it can criticize the ways things are done and consider alternatives. ^^Again dubious. Why didn’t this so called “critical consciousness” lead to abolition of slavery, why did the Spartan helots remain in miserable conditions, and why don’t we hear about how much better enslaved people were doing in Greece, versus eras supposedly lacking this “enlightened” “critical consciousness”?
In addition, the evidence of experience can then take on a greater importance, trumping the petrified dogmas sanctioned by mere authority or even sheer mental inertia, and so foster a scientific rather than a supernatural view of nature. Again overstated. SOME Greek philosophers examined modes of rational expression, for which they deserve credit. Most however still cleaved to superstitions about gods, goddesses, and other mythic elements.
This novel way of looking at the world, however, was creative of new improvements as well as being destructive of the old ways. The most obvious example of the improving power of critical consciousness when systematized into a science can be found in ancient Greek medicine. Numerous medical writings from ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia do survive, but their detailed observations are subordinated to irrational superstition: they are, as historian of medicine Roy Porter puts it, "sorcery systematized," for all disease is thought to be caused by demons. The Greek medical writers, on the other hand, for the most part ignored supernatural explanations and focused instead on their own observations and the consistent patterns of nature. That's why our word "physician" derives from the Greek word for nature, phusis. The following statement, from a Hippocratic work called On the Sacred Disease, a treatise on epilepsy, is unique in the ancient world outside Greece. "It [epilepsy] is not," the author says, "in my opinion, any more divine or more sacred than other diseases, but has a natural cause, and its supposed divine origin is due to men's inexperience, and to their wonder at its peculiar character."
Actually the Greek defense is not telling readers the whole story here. Greek “rationality” is again overblown. Let’s consider their record as far as the medicinal arts according to another historian:
Quote:
"Drugs were applied not because of a belief that they had natural healing properties, but following the tenets of primitive medicine, because they had magical powers. he Greek word pharmakon, usually translated as "drug: originally designated a substance with magic powers. These powers, however, did not need to be therapeutic, (a pharmakon could be a poison or could turn humans into animals) but were originally considered to me magic..
Supernaturalistic medicine is characterized by a multiplicity of powers that can heal and kill. Primitive Greek medicine was no exception and many Greek gods had healing functions: Apollo, the first deity invoked in the Hippocratic oath; Vulcan, worshipped in Lemnos, gave his healing powers to terra lemmnia, Juno, Jupiter's wife assisted women in childbirth.. In addition some of the gods could cause sudden death: for example, both Apollo and Diana could shoot lethal darts at humans.." (--A history of medicine by Plinio Priorescho 2004)
Critical consciousness defines the Greek achievement, and its most obvious manifestation is that uniquely Greek invention, philosophy, which can be defined as critical consciousness systematized.
^Dubious, for the reasons given above. One can make a case for unique Greek ARTICULATION of some things, but in terms of GREEK ARTICULATION. The Greeks invented their own way of analyzing the issues. But “critical consciousness”, in a universal sense, is old news in other cultures. It was not “invented” by the Greeks.
Of all the Greek philosophers, the spirit of critical consciousness is best embodied in the late 5th century BC philosopher Socrates, Plato's mentor, who was executed by Athens in 399 BC. Socrates's famous method was the "dialectic," from the Greek word that suggests both "discussion" and "analytical sorting." ^Fine. Socrates used a dialectical format. But his format does not constitute or embody “critical consciousness” in humans.
Most important, Socrates saw this activity of rational examination and pursuit of truth and virtue as the essence of what a human being is and the highest expression of human nature. That is why he chose to die rather than to give it up: "The unexamined life," he said in his defense speech, "is no life worth living for a human being." ^^Fine, and Socrates deserves credit for his insights. But when the author leaps to make a blanket claim that this represents some paragon of “critical consciousness” in humanity, then it is dubiously overblown. Socrates also hewed to several old beliefs about the gods too, and superstitious Greek religion that he did not cast off. He may have examined them, but he still cleaved to “superstitious” elements.
The invention of philosophy formalized the Greek habit of critical consciousness. Such an achievement is remarkable enough. Yet true to their drive to question and criticize everything, the Greeks turned critical consciousness not just on nature and other peoples, but, as we've already seen in their willingness to scrutinize their own beliefs about slavery or their behavior in war, they criticized their own culture and even rationalism itself. ^^All well and good, but as shown above, such self-criticism is nothing new among Chinese, Egyptians, etc
This impulse to self-examination, however, can perhaps best be illustrated by the critical questions raised about two of the Greeks' most important inventions, rationalism and democratic freedom.
Dubious. The Greeks did not invent “Rationalism” nor did they invent democratic freedom. In Greece, the bulk of the population had no democratic freedom. Only a few did. They may have been defined as “citizens” but outside the “citizens” a bigger group of slaves and serfs without democratic rights toiled away. The Spartan helots experienced very little so-called “democracy.”
And “Democracy” in terms of freely elected representatives of a defined polity is seen among various African tribes. The Galla of East Africa for example, with their “gada” system, freely elected leaders based on age grades, producing a republican system, of orderly rotating tribal government and functioning, based on free elections and defined rights and responsibilities. Defining “rationalism” in terms of what the Greeks did is attempting to impose a European vise on the concept. We get to make the definitions, we get to set the parameters. Sorry. It no longer works that way.
At the moment in the mid-5th century BC when philosophy was being born and formalizing the rational pursuit of knowledge, the tragic poets were questioning the power of reason to acquire significant knowledge about the human condition. Insight and writing on the human condition is an old theme and old news among other peoples, besides Greeks..
Critical consciousness is the precious legacy the West received from the Greeks, a way of looking at the world that generates the cultural, intellectual, and political ideas--free speech, rationalism, consensual government, individualism, human rights--we all cherish today.
Again overstated, and notice how this picture flows with sweetness and light, and all good things, courtesy of the Greeks. The record of history however speaks otherwise. Genocide, racism, military conquest, etc can also be said to be a legacy of the Greeks, if one is willing to go to the opposite end of the spectrum and interpret Greek writings and practice from that negative end. The author overstates the case. All the nice things above are PARTIALLY a legacy of the Greeks. But there are other important items in the picture, besides the hagiography above. One large portion missing is the influence of the Near Eastern strands, Judaism and later on Christianity that played a key role in human rights, consensual government, etc. All the nice things mentioned above did not lead to the Greeks abolishing slavery for example, or extending the democratic ballot to serfs, slaves and all residents of their territories.
The central failing of the author’s piece is glamorization of all things Greek, and attempting to define things like “critical consciousness” according to a self-serving, flattering standard, that while fine in terms of the Greeks, do not necessarily apply to other parts of humanity. Do some critics of the Greeks overstate their case, boiling down the details to simplistic screeds of “isms”? Of course, and they deserve correction. But let us not go to the other extreme of self-serving Greek glamorization.
I have no problem with the author pointing out various unique elements of the Greeks, as inherited and applied by other Western nations. It is clear that the Greeks, like others, have made their own unique contribution to the world's culture. But the notion that the Greeks created "critical consciousness" or “rationalism” is very much open to question.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
Lamin if you read Zarahan's post you can get a better understanding of what I am trying to say. Modern Science as we understand it, divorced from a Religious, deeper understanding is totally different than what Africans and Asians looked at science. You can go to Kemet and get some of the same conclusions so called Modern European Science is saying except in Kemet the Gods and Science were not exclusive. This is a basic fact.
Besides "Modern Science" is just a name, the only thing Modern about it is the advances made by the Post Industrial technology, nothing more nothing less.
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Jari, You are wrong: "modern science" is not a European invention. What you should say is that many of the advances made in modern[ post 17th century] science were made by a small number of persons in Western Europe. Mainly from Britain, France, Germany, Holland--mainly countries that were heavily involved in the Atlantic slave business. The Spaniards and Portugese lost out because they thought that gold would solve all their problems.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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''Gramps, what do you think about Zimmerman's myspace account?''
I put it in the same context as Trayvon having marijuana residue in a bag, or swinging on a bus driver. Don't mean jacksh.t to me.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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Jari, Not as simple as you think. Modern scientists such as Newton were heavy into alchemy and religion.
Einstein in his opposition to Quantum mechanics famously said that "God doesn't play dice". Whether in jest or not, some people take that literally.
Point is that what enhances science is its reliance on instrumentation--i.e. technology. There would be little science done without electron microscopes and cyclotrons.
And some scientists believe in God only because they assume that God doesn't intervene in affairs of the universe or how it operates according to its laws and principles.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:How in particular does the slave trade relate to modern advances in science?
.
If you cannot associate ideas--here goes: profits and the desire for more profits from the truck in humans in the Atlantic triangular trade led to the marketing of new technologies to increase production and transportation. Thus, the steam engine, the spinning jenny, all initially ideas of eccentric men were taken over by those wishing to make more profits.
See the connection between wrenching humans from their villages and sending them to unknown places to work the survivors to death and the growth of modern science and technology?
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Are we talking about "Modern" Science or Science in general.
Lmao @ this guy for jumping into an argument only to ask what its all about after making pronouncements on it! HAHAHHAHA
If you must know jughead, Sweetie proclaimed that Europeans invented science. Period. I wouldn't be surprised if he comes back and modifies his argument by saying whites invented "modern" science. But even that is up for debate as to who was responsible for it.
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Jari, Not as simple as you think. Modern scientists such as Newton were heavy into alchemy and religion.
Einstein in his opposition to Quantum mechanics famously said that "God doesn't play dice". Whether in jest or not, some people take that literally.
Point is that what enhances science is its reliance on instrumentation--i.e. technology. There would be little science done without electron microscopes and cyclotrons.
And some scientists believe in God only because they assume that God doesn't intervene in affairs of the universe or how it operates according to its laws and principles.
Exactly.
Despite some challenges to religious views, however, many notable figures of the scientific revolution—including Nicolaus Copernicus, Tycho Brahe, Johannes Kepler, Galileo Galilei, René Descartes, Isaac Newton and Gottfried Leibniz—remained devout in their faith.[14]
quote:How in particular does the slave trade relate to modern advances in science?
.
If you cannot associate ideas--here goes: profits and the desire for more profits from the truck in humans in the Atlantic triangular trade led to the marketing of new technologies to increase production and transportation. Thus, the steam engine, the spinning jenny, all initially ideas of eccentric men were taken over by those wishing to make more profits.
See the connection between wrenching humans from their villages and sending them to unknown places to work the survivors to death and the growth of modern science and technology?
so would you say scientific advances like electric lighting, central heating, refrigeration, airplanes, heart transplants, the internet come about from opression?
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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^Keep it in context, scientific advances came about FOR higher classes and are of minimal benefit for those that aint. Dont be surprised if they become the guinea pigs for the higher classes.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Oshun: ^Keep it in context, scientific advances came about FOR higher classes and are of minimal benefit for those that aint. Dont be surprised if they become the guinea pigs for the higher classes.
so you are one of these upper class people who have the internet, electric lights, use a washing machine, have a refrigerator a telephone and travel in cars and trains?
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:so would you say scientific advances like electric lighting, central heating, refrigeration, airplanes, heart transplants, the internet come about from opression?
.
You are being very naive or maybe you are not that naive. Dunno.
The above are not scientific advances but technological advances that flowed from the qualitative transformation in civilisation[ urbanisation, etc.] that occurred when capital was voraciously accumulated in places like Britain and France--with spillovers in places like Holland and Germany--all addicted to the profits from the trade in human flesh.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Grumman: Anguishofbeing asks,
''Gramps, what do you think about Zimmerman's myspace account?''
I put it in the same context as Trayvon having marijuana residue in a bag, or swinging on a bus driver. Don't mean jacksh.t to me.
Smart reply. At least you're not as stupid as the Martin family lawyers in taking this bait. Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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Oh really? Please explain how is making comments on social media relevant in this particular case "gaining the upper hand". Take your time? Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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It could depending on what is written establish a pattern of a particular way of thinking. Would they find a way to tie it to something substantial to killing Trayvon though? Hard to say. Yes it potentially describes profiling Mexicans but they didn't need the Myspace comments for that.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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Oshun's comment but Anguishofbeing needs to read it again.
''It could depending on what is written establish a pattern of a particular way of thinking. Would they find a way to tie it to something substantial to killing Trayvon though? Hard to say.''Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Keita himself, in fact, has made arguments similar to the one damn near calling anti-Keita.
Keita does not mindlessly parrot those specific claims of the Bowcock study.
Translation: I phucked up. First I got brave, and I tried to make the observation that Euro’s are 1/3rd African and 2/3rd Asian anti-Keita, and now, realizing how much I phucked up, I limit my comments to simply saying Keita isn’t parroting Bowcock, lol!
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:How can that ball be in my court, when it is in fact my argument that bias leads scholars to arbitrarily flock to the position that ‘nrm’ automatically reads Narmer, and that they measure with a different ruler when it comes to biblical scriptures? Why would I present a group of scholars who don’t do what you want me to prove they do, when I don’t even believe they do it? The fact that they don’t do it, is precisely the point, dumb ho’.
Yep, still no reply. Constant bytching and appeals to emotions don't count.
The ball is in your court ho’. You don’t know the concept of taking turns? You say ‘dwd’ is just a contentious scribble, I say if it is, it would make other characters mentioned in extant records contentious scribbles as well. Angelina’s response; well, prove other researchers think of ‘nrmr’as anything different than Narmer. You still haven’t explained why ‘nrmr’ isn't every bit as much a contentious scribble as ‘dwd’, ho’. Stop talking about other researchers, and address the issue at hand. Of course, hiding behind what other researchers think, is just a smoke screen, to not have to address your glaringly obvious hypocrisy.
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: [QUOTE] The improvement of technologies, knowledge of the body, medicine etc can only come about by the "narrowing down possibilities"
Cultural improvements here and there are inevitable, and have nothing to do with ''narrowing down possibilities’’, or ockhams razor, which is a systematic and conscious process, and starts with purposefully asking questions, and subsequently purposefully answering them. Cultural improvement doesn’t hinge on this process, birdbrain, and neither was ancient so called 'scientific' medicine free of degradation, and arbitrary practices (e.g., the AE medicinal practice of putting feces on open wounds, using pigs eyes and blood as medicine and stuffing female reproductive organs with dung as a means of birth control etc etc), which is consistent with the fact that they hadn't undergone a scientific revolution.
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: [QUOTE] Copernicus and Galileo represent a stage in scientific development, not that they "invented" it.
Strawman. Never said the scientific revolution started in a vacuum. You seem to be utterly in the dark about innovation, thinking it is necessitates one starts from scratch.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: Jari, You are wrong: "modern science" is not a European invention. What you should say is that many of the advances made in modern[ post 17th century] science were made by a small number of persons in Western Europe. Mainly from Britain, France, Germany, Holland--mainly countries that were heavily involved in the Atlantic slave business. The Spaniards and Portugese lost out because they thought that gold would solve all their problems.
Well, then point to a time which preceded Galileo - Newton, where people concertedly decided they were going to let experiments dictate their beliefs, rather than intuition and assumptions.
posted
Theory and Practice--that's the name of the game. You get an idea then the next step is to try it out.
Pre-Galilean astronomy--that's mainly the Ptolemaic system--fits the bill. Also Egyptian geometry experimented on with pyramid construction, etc.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Strawman. Never said the scientific revolution started in a vacuum.
Oh my god. This is an incredibly dumb argument to begin with and I know you are only beating this horse to save face from your ridiculously stupid racist statement some years back. Science is a process not an invention not a one-off event. Its not a straw its a valid response to your amazingly idiotic claim about whites "inventing science".
quote:The ball is in your court ho’.Of course, hiding behind what other researchers think, is just a smoke screen, to not have to address your glaringly obvious hypocrisy.
Who else would we use in an archeological argument dummy? I'm not an archaeologist, and your dumbass sure aint. You use scholars to back up your arguments now you are suddenly anti-scholar? lol Stop being a fuking sore loser man.
quote:Translation: I phucked up.
I really don't know what the fuk you are trying say here as Keita does not claim that Europeans are 1/3rd Central African and 2/3rd East Asian. Thats Bowcock 1991.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Grumman: Oshun's comment but Anguishofbeing needs to read it again.
''It could depending on what is written establish a pattern of a particular way of thinking. Would they find a way to tie it to something substantial to killing Trayvon though? Hard to say.''
I want to read your opinion gramps. You were never shy of expressing them before. Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: Theory and Practice--that's the name of the game. You get an idea then the next step is to try it out.
Pre-Galilean astronomy--that's mainly the Ptolemaic system--fits the bill. Also Egyptian geometry experimented on with pyramid construction, etc.
See my post, this has nothing to do with what I said. It would be insane to suggest that what you're suggesting can be innovated, as its simply human nature (i.e., theory and practice). Theory and practice also involves non-scientific matters such as religion, building, making plans and executing them, which - by themselves - have little to do with science.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Science is a process not an invention not a one-off event. Its not a straw its a valid response to your amazingly idiotic claim about whites "inventing science".
LOL. Simply repeating the strawman, so let me get it through you thick skull again. NO INVENTION EVER OCCURS IN A VACUUM YOU DUMB PHUCK. Since no invention ever occurs in a vacuum, baby steps (in the form of isolated ‘hey, let me try this’ sporadic incidents) toward what we see materializing by the time of Galileo-Newton doesn’t preclude the scientific revolution from being innovative and new.
quote:Who else would we use in an archeological argument dummy?
Why else use the archaeological argument? To address your hypocritical and unconditional approval of ‘nrmr’ as Narmer, while frantically fighting the reading of ‘dwd’, slow witted ho’. Are you suggesting I need scholarly discourse to show what a hypocritical slippery snake you’ve proved yourself to be, in regards to the above? Of course you don’t really believe that that's required. Its just another one of your slippery snake, b!tch-made tactics you employ to buy time from having to answer for your glaring hypocrisy. Your dumbass has an uncle tom like reference for whitey when it comes to interpretations ‘nrmr’, yet your dumbass rejects the scholarly consensus which exist for ‘dwd’:
'The Tel Dan inscription generated a good deal of debate and a flurry of articles when it first appeared, but it is now widely regarded (a) as genuine and (b) as referring to the Davidic dynasty and the Aramaic kingdom of Damascus. -Lester Grabbe
What does that mean? That your hate for Jewish people trumps your reference for whitey. Ha ha ha ha ha. EPIC FAIL.
quote:Keita does not claim that Europeans are 1/3rd Central African and 2/3rd East Asian.
LOL at the snaky shift to ’’central African’’. Phucking dumb ignorant piece of sh!t. Read and learn, ho’:
quote:Nuclear DNA studies also contribute to the deconstruction of received racial entities. Ann Bowcock and her colleague's interpretation (Bowcock et al. 1991; Bowcock et al. 1994) of analyses of restriction-site polymorphisms and microsatellite polymorphisms (STRPs) suggests that Europeans, the defining Caucasians, are descendants of a population that arose as a consequence of admixture between already differentiated populations ancestral to (some) Africans and Asians.
quote:Originally posted by Grumman: ''You ain't very bright are you. What lawyer wouldn't try to gain the upper hand.''
See the above on May 5th, 1:34 p.m. for reference and redundancy.
Ok gramps, lets make this easy for you. Would you try make it relevant if you were their lawyer?
quote:Since no invention ever occurs in a vacuum
Science is not regarded as an "invention". You're incredibly dumb.
quote:What does that mean?
It means he's on the "its referring to David" side of the debate.
quote:LOL at the snaky shift to ’’central African’’. Phucking dumb ignorant piece of sh!t. Read and learn, ho’:
The Bowcock study is referring to Central Africans and East Asians. Hence the word "some". Again, incredibly dumb.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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