posted
try for the 3rd time. Originally a response to a thread on Native Americans being black
As usual, Clyde Winters fills the air waves with spam with the hope that the sheer volume will deter people from checking up on his data and sources. I have dealt with practically everything about Mesoamerica that he just posted here. A search of this forum will come up with megabytes on these topics. As you have seen, Winters NEVER acknowledges that he is in error. Lately he has take to making flat assertions as if they were not in any doubt. For example: “the Olmecs made tools from jade”— completely false (Mesoamerican tools and weapons were made from flint and obsidian). Just to avoid photographic spam—jade was never USED as a tool or weapon – although ceremonial objects were made that resembled tools or weapons. Further – Amazonite is NOT jade it is feldspar and easily fractured.
Here I will just deal with one of these assertions- which have been shown to be false as far back as 1998. Above, Winters wrote “The Mayan term for maize is Ka the same as the Mande term.” (1).Winters almost never provides citations for his numerous comparison of different languages (something y’all should be asking about). His Mande words are taken from Delafosse and in 1998 he finally revealed that his source for Mayan words was Swadesh (1970). (2) Since Winters wants to compare Mande words in 1200-1500 B.C. The appropriate comparison would be proto-Mande with proto-Maya since neither Mande nor Maya existed this far back. There is no published source for proto-Mande but there ARE sources for proto-Maya. (3) I won’t deal here with Winters erroneous phonetic transcriptions or his absolute refusal to acknowledge that Mayan languages use the CONSONANT glottal stop (here (‘).
First Ka is NOT the Maya word for maize Beginning with proto-Maya the word is derived from *ii(glottal stop)m. As you can see below all the Maya names are derived as ixim. I put in the Mixe and the Otomi languages because Winters has claimed that these languages too are related to Mande. Please notice that Winters is misquoting his own source (Swadesh 1970). The word ka on page 56 of Swadesh means “bile, something bitter. Maize proto-Maya Brown & Wichtman p. 145 *ii’m Tzotzil Haviland p. 22 ‘ixi Otomi Neve p.63 dethâ Mixe Popoluca Oluta p.89 mocU Mixe Popoluca Soyula p. 70 mojc Quiche Christianson ixim Yucatec Cordemex p. 275 ixim; corn cob p. 557 nal Chorti Wisdom p. 71 ixim Chuj Hopkins p. 27 ‘ixim Swadesh p.119 ixim Proto-Maya *ii’m,, Yuc- i’im; K’ich –iim; Chl-im So much for the Maya side of the comparison.
How about Mande Ka for maize? 1) There is no archaeological or botanical evidence for the presence of maize in West Africa before the Portuguese. 2) Commonly when foreign or new plants or objects are introduced into a society, either the name for it is borrowed or given a name that associates it with a similar thing and adds the source. For example in Nahuatl (Aztec language) Maize = tlaolli therefore wheat =castillan tlaolli (Spanish maize); sweet potato = camotli therefore carrot = castillan camotli (Spanish sweet potato); rabbit =tochtli therefore donkey = castillan tochtli (Spanish rabbit—because the shape of the ears. The Mande did the same thing both borrow words or associate a known plant with a newly introduced plant. Delafosse (1929) writes this:
quote:p. 479 mă (mă-n) “master” (and specially master of the soil), landowner, lord, ancestor, spirits of the ancestors, primitive inhabitant of West Africa who had preceded the Blacks in the continent of Africa, and their memory remains as those who are really the owners of the land, pigmies or negrille considered survivors of the state of the invisible inhabitants that prefer the forests and the rivers, a variety of antelope called “water beast” which is seen as incarnating the spirit of the ancient inhabitants of the country, the manatee which is seen as the incarnation of the spirit of the master of the water.
As you can see in Delafosse (1929), the use of “ma was extended to introduced non-native plants.
480 mă-mbendč, măbenč (lit sesame of the master) small bean mă-/ng/gye, mă-ndye (lit “squash of the master”) papaya Carica papaya
mă-ngkala (lit “stalk of the master”) sugar cane mă-ngyon (lit “millet of the master”) maize, Zea mais 481 mă-ngyon-gbč-ma (lit “white millet of the master”) white maize mă-ngyon-kolo (heart of the stalk of maize) corn cob similarly many others, maize of many colors, red maize, brown maize for couscous, maize kernel three-month maize mă-ntiga, mă-ndiga (lit “spider of the master)
3) Below are a number of citations for maize:
Koelle 1853 p. 205 nyoro- corn, Indian corn, maize
Delafosse 1901 p. 90 (mäis)—mosono- ngyo; kaba
Delafosse 1955.
p. 315 kâ (kan) (“maize”)
kâ-ba, kâ-mba and kâ-ma (“large species maize; maize in general”); kâba-foro (“maize silk sheath”); kâ-ba tou (“maize silk”); kâ-ba-wule (“brown grain maize”)
p. 338 kangga and kâga (“maize”); (kanga-ba “large kernel maize”); cf. mandingue kâ 1
pp. 479-481 mâ “master, landowner, ancestor” mâ/ng/yô (literally “millet of the master’) maize (Zea mays); mâ-ngyô- mba (“high stem late maize”); mâ-ngyô-da-si (“maize silk”); mâ-ngyô- gbč-ma (“white maize”); mâ-ngyô-wulu-gyali (literally “dog’s blood maize”) red maize
p. 484 maka (“maize”) perhaps for maka-ngyô or ma/rh/a-ngyo (“millet of the master”); cf. mâ-ngyo at mâ 1; cf Sarakolle and Wolof- maka
p. 516 moso-no-ngyo maize (lit. sorghum [bom millet] in a sheath)
p. 583 ngyo – sorghum or large millet (Andropogon sorghum), millet properly or little millet (Pennisetum), food grain in general %%% Delafosse 1929
p. 525 maize = mâ/ng/yô; mara-ngyo; M maka-ngyo; maka; moso-no-ngyo; kâ-ba; kangga; kanga-ba; kâ maize silk = kâ-ba foro; kâ-ba-tou %%%% Innes 1969 p. 119 nyo = maize, Indian corn; nyoi ji hingo “this corn has a full head” Kepele ~ Sierra Leone = bulrush millet; pe ~ a variety of millet
%%%%% Bird and Kante 1977 p. 22 manyň corn p. 46 corn (uncooked grain) = manyň corn (for eating, cooked) = kaba
p. 63 millet (white millet) nyň %%%%%%% References
Mande Bird, C and Kante, M. 1977 Bambara-English, English-Bambara Student Lexicon Bloomington: Indiana University Linguistics Club
Delafosse, M. 1901 Essai de Manuel pratique de la langue mande ou mandinge Paris: Ernest Leroux Editeur
Delafosse, Maurice. 1929. La Langue Mandingue et ses Dialectes (Malinke, Bambara, Dioula). Vol 1. Intro. Grammaire, Lexique Francais-Mandingue). Paris: Librarie Orientaliste Paul Geuthner
Delafosse, Maurice. 1955. La Langue Mandingue et ses Dialectes (Malinke, Bambara, Dioula). Vol 2. Dictionnaire Mandingue-Francaise. Paris: Librarie Paul Geuthner
Innes, G. 1969 A Mende-English Dictionary Cambridge: Cambridge University Press
Koelle, S. W. 1854 Outlines of a Grammar of the Vei Language. London: Church Missionary House
Maya Barrera Vasquez, A., et al. 1980 Diccionario Maya Cordemex Merida: Ediciones Cordemex
Brown, C. and Wichmann 2004 “Proto-Mayan Syllable Nuclei,” International Journal of Applied Linguistics 70@): 128-186
posted
So you are saying that the Mande got maize from the outside, but renamed it in local terms, thus perhaps giving the impression that maize is indigenous? Hence a similar sounding Mande and Aztec word does not necessarily indicate that maize originated in and moved from Mandeland to Mexico, but rather the opposite?
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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EM+GQ *k'uu=nhaah AKA k'unah AKA k'unah POP k'unhah POP k'unhah
Here we discover that Mayan term for Maize is K’unah.
In Delafosse , La Langue Mandingue et ses Dialectes (Malinke, Bambara, Dioula (1955) he notes on page 315 kâ (kan) is “maize”, in the Mande languages. It is obvious from a cursory examination of Mayan K’unah, and Mande Kan, that they are related, not only do they have the same meaning they also share the same phonetic construction K-N.
As I said earlier Bernard Ortiz de Montellano, you are a liar interested only in deceiving people.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl: try for the 3rd time. Originally a response to a thread on Native Americans being black
As usual, Clyde Winters fills the air waves with spam with the hope that the sheer volume will deter people from checking up on his data and sources. I have dealt with practically everything about Mesoamerica that he just posted here. A search of this forum will come up with megabytes on these topics. As you have seen, Winters NEVER acknowledges that he is in error. Lately he has take to making flat assertions as if they were not in any doubt. For example: “the Olmecs made tools from jade”— completely false (Mesoamerican tools and weapons were made from flint and obsidian). Just to avoid photographic spam—jade was never USED as a tool or weapon – although ceremonial objects were made that resembled tools or weapons. Further – Amazonite is NOT jade it is feldspar and easily fractured.
Here I will just deal with one of these assertions- which have been shown to be false as far back as 1998. Above, Winters wrote “The Mayan term for maize is Ka the same as the Mande term.” (1).Winters almost never provides citations for his numerous comparison of different languages (something y’all should be asking about). His Mande words are taken from Delafosse and in 1998 he finally revealed that his source for Mayan words was Swadesh (1970). (2) Since Winters wants to compare Mande words in 1200-1500 B.C. The appropriate comparison would be proto-Mande with proto-Maya since neither Mande nor Maya existed this far back. There is no published source for proto-Mande but there ARE sources for proto-Maya. (3) I won’t deal here with Winters erroneous phonetic transcriptions or his absolute refusal to acknowledge that Mayan languages use the CONSONANT glottal stop (here (‘).
First Ka is NOT the Maya word for maize Beginning with proto-Maya the word is derived from *ii(glottal stop)m. As you can see below all the Maya names are derived as ixim. I put in the Mixe and the Otomi languages because Winters has claimed that these languages too are related to Mande. Please notice that Winters is misquoting his own source (Swadesh 1970). The word ka on page 56 of Swadesh means “bile, something bitter. Maize proto-Maya Brown & Wichtman p. 145 *ii’m Tzotzil Haviland p. 22 ‘ixi Otomi Neve p.63 dethâ Mixe Popoluca Oluta p.89 mocU Mixe Popoluca Soyula p. 70 mojc Quiche Christianson ixim Yucatec Cordemex p. 275 ixim; corn cob p. 557 nal Chorti Wisdom p. 71 ixim Chuj Hopkins p. 27 ‘ixim Swadesh p.119 ixim Proto-Maya *ii’m,, Yuc- i’im; K’ich –iim; Chl-im So much for the Maya side of the comparison.
How about Mande Ka for maize? 1) There is no archaeological or botanical evidence for the presence of maize in West Africa before the Portuguese. 2) Commonly when foreign or new plants or objects are introduced into a society, either the name for it is borrowed or given a name that associates it with a similar thing and adds the source. For example in Nahuatl (Aztec language) Maize = tlaolli therefore wheat =castillan tlaolli (Spanish maize); sweet potato = camotli therefore carrot = castillan camotli (Spanish sweet potato); rabbit =tochtli therefore donkey = castillan tochtli (Spanish rabbit—because the shape of the ears. The Mande did the same thing both borrow words or associate a known plant with a newly introduced plant. Delafosse (1929) writes this:
quote:p. 479 mă (mă-n) “master” (and specially master of the soil), landowner, lord, ancestor, spirits of the ancestors, primitive inhabitant of West Africa who had preceded the Blacks in the continent of Africa, and their memory remains as those who are really the owners of the land, pigmies or negrille considered survivors of the state of the invisible inhabitants that prefer the forests and the rivers, a variety of antelope called “water beast” which is seen as incarnating the spirit of the ancient inhabitants of the country, the manatee which is seen as the incarnation of the spirit of the master of the water.
As you can see in Delafosse (1929), the use of “ma was extended to introduced non-native plants.
480 mă-mbendč, măbenč (lit sesame of the master) small bean mă-/ng/gye, mă-ndye (lit “squash of the master”) papaya Carica papaya
mă-ngkala (lit “stalk of the master”) sugar cane mă-ngyon (lit “millet of the master”) maize, Zea mais 481 mă-ngyon-gbč-ma (lit “white millet of the master”) white maize mă-ngyon-kolo (heart of the stalk of maize) corn cob similarly many others, maize of many colors, red maize, brown maize for couscous, maize kernel three-month maize mă-ntiga, mă-ndiga (lit “spider of the master)
3) Below are a number of citations for maize:
Koelle 1853 p. 205 nyoro- corn, Indian corn, maize
Delafosse 1901 p. 90 (mäis)—mosono- ngyo; kaba
Delafosse 1955.
p. 315 kâ (kan) (“maize”)
kâ-ba, kâ-mba and kâ-ma (“large species maize; maize in general”); kâba-foro (“maize silk sheath”); kâ-ba tou (“maize silk”); kâ-ba-wule (“brown grain maize”)
p. 338 kangga and kâga (“maize”); (kanga-ba “large kernel maize”); cf. mandingue kâ 1
pp. 479-481 mâ “master, landowner, ancestor” mâ/ng/yô (literally “millet of the master’) maize (Zea mays); mâ-ngyô- mba (“high stem late maize”); mâ-ngyô-da-si (“maize silk”); mâ-ngyô- gbč-ma (“white maize”); mâ-ngyô-wulu-gyali (literally “dog’s blood maize”) red maize
p. 484 maka (“maize”) perhaps for maka-ngyô or ma/rh/a-ngyo (“millet of the master”); cf. mâ-ngyo at mâ 1; cf Sarakolle and Wolof- maka
p. 516 moso-no-ngyo maize (lit. sorghum [bom millet] in a sheath)
p. 583 ngyo – sorghum or large millet (Andropogon sorghum), millet properly or little millet (Pennisetum), food grain in general %%% Delafosse 1929
p. 525 maize = mâ/ng/yô; mara-ngyo; M maka-ngyo; maka; moso-no-ngyo; kâ-ba; kangga; kanga-ba; kâ maize silk = kâ-ba foro; kâ-ba-tou %%%% Innes 1969 p. 119 nyo = maize, Indian corn; nyoi ji hingo “this corn has a full head” Kepele ~ Sierra Leone = bulrush millet; pe ~ a variety of millet
%%%%% Bird and Kante 1977 p. 22 manyň corn p. 46 corn (uncooked grain) = manyň corn (for eating, cooked) = kaba
p. 63 millet (white millet) nyň %%%%%%% References
Mande Bird, C and Kante, M. 1977 Bambara-English, English-Bambara Student Lexicon Bloomington: Indiana University Linguistics Club
Delafosse, M. 1901 Essai de Manuel pratique de la langue mande ou mandinge Paris: Ernest Leroux Editeur
Delafosse, Maurice. 1929. La Langue Mandingue et ses Dialectes (Malinke, Bambara, Dioula). Vol 1. Intro. Grammaire, Lexique Francais-Mandingue). Paris: Librarie Orientaliste Paul Geuthner
Delafosse, Maurice. 1955. La Langue Mandingue et ses Dialectes (Malinke, Bambara, Dioula). Vol 2. Dictionnaire Mandingue-Francaise. Paris: Librarie Paul Geuthner
Innes, G. 1969 A Mende-English Dictionary Cambridge: Cambridge University Press
Koelle, S. W. 1854 Outlines of a Grammar of the Vei Language. London: Church Missionary House
Maya Barrera Vasquez, A., et al. 1980 Diccionario Maya Cordemex Merida: Ediciones Cordemex
Brown, C. and Wichmann 2004 “Proto-Mayan Syllable Nuclei,” International Journal of Applied Linguistics 70@): 128-186
Laughlin,R. M. 1975 The Great Tzotzil Dictionary of San Lorenzo Zinacantan Washington, DC: Smithsonian Institution Press
Swadesh, Alvarez and Bastarrachea 1970 Diccionario de Elementos del Maya Yucatec Colonial Mexico: UNAM
Wisdom, C. 1950 Chorti-English Dictionary
The Mayan term for Maize is of Mande/Olmec origin. The Mayan term for maize is K'unah, not ixim.
People have assumed that the Portuguese introduced Maize to Africa but there is no evidence that they spread the cultivation of Maize to Africa (Miracle,1965).
The first mention of Maize outside of Mexico by the Portuguese was in 1550, by Giovanni Battista Ramusio, who claimed that Maize was being cultivated in the Islands of Săo Tomé and Principe (Paz-Sanchez,2013). Although Maize was being cultivated on the Islands, there is no mention of Portuguese introducing the cultivation of the crop to Africa.
References:
Miracle, M.P. (1965).The Introduction and Spread of Maize in Africa, The Journal of African History, 6(1):39-55.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Olmec probably took Maize back to the Mande in Africa. As a result,the Mande and Maya share the same terms for Maize.
EM+GQ *k'uu=nhaah AKA k'unah AKA k'unah POP k'unhah POP k'unhah
Here we discover that Mayan term for Maize is K’unah.
In Delafosse , La Langue Mandingue et ses Dialectes (Malinke, Bambara, Dioula (1955) he notes on page 315 kâ (kan) is “maize”, in the Mande languages. It is obvious from a cursory examination of Mayan K’unah, and Mande Kan, that they are related, not only do they have the same meaning they also share the same phonetic construction K-N.
As I said earlier Bernard Ortiz de Montellano, you are a liar interested only in deceiving people.
The person in this forum who is the biggest liar, misquoter, and provider of false or missing references is ]YOU- Clyde. If your acolytes would take the trouble to check your supposed etymologies and quotes they would see this easily.
Here we have a number of points and some elementary linguistics to teach you. 1) to compare Mande at 1200 BC you would need to compare to proto-Maya rather than modern languages. 2) Your citation of Kaufmann is as usual incomplete and misleading. The EM+GQ proto –term you cite only applies to Eastern Maya and Konjuba and Katoke—not the usual languages you keep bringing up, i.e. Yukatek and K’iche. My citation of pM (proto-Maya) is much older than the one you cite and applies to many more Mayan languages. 3) Since you deny the existence of glottal stops (which are consonants and cannot be discarded in your usual fashion), how do you compare Maya which is full of Glottal stops and Mande which has none? 4) In order to cheat and make you comparisons seem more probable you never put in the vowels of a word—how can you deal with a language like the Maya where vowel length changes the meaning of a word ?—you can’t and this practice would be rejected by any legitimate peer reviewed linguistics journal (where you have never published a paper).
so on to your use of Kaufmann p. 1057
1) how can you say that k(Glottal Stop)uu=naah is the same as ka or kan. where is the consonant (Glottal Stop] why do you keep the n but somehow disregard /h/ which is a consonant and not to be discarded even in your methods/.
2) Why do you only partially quote Justeson (a favorite trick of yours? This is what Justeson writes
AKA k(glottal stop)unah AKA k(glottal stop)unah POP k(glottal stop)unah POP k(glottal stop)unah MaMo k(Glottal stop)uja----- no longer n but j IXL k(Glottal stop)uja- USP k(Glottal stop)uja- USP k(Glottal stop)uja- KCHq k(Glottal stop)uja- KCHq k(Glottal stop)uja- KCHc k(Glottal stop)uja- KCHc k(Glottal stop)uja- KAQc k(Glottal stop)ujay—no longer n but j and y KAQc k(Glottal stop)ujay KAQi k(Glottal stop)ujay KAQi k(Glottal stop)ujay
Winter only cites 4 of 16 examples because the other 12 would not fit even his distorted methodology.
AND FINALLY Another favorite Winters linguistic trick is to claim resemblances where there is only a tenuous relationship between the words being compared. Here k(glottal stop)unah is supposed to mean “maize”—just like MY much older and widely diffused Maya term- [ixim to fit the Mande ka BUT k(glottal stop)unah does [not[/b] mean “maize” What Justeson writes as the meaning is “troja, granero Redondo, granero cuadrado” i.e. “granary, square granary, round granary”
Winters duplicity is clearly demonstrated and my original post remains intact.
Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl: try for the 3rd time. Originally a response to a thread on Native Americans being black
As usual, Clyde Winters fills the air waves with spam with the hope that the sheer volume will deter people from checking up on his data and sources. I have dealt with practically everything about Mesoamerica that he just posted here. A search of this forum will come up with megabytes on these topics. As you have seen, Winters NEVER acknowledges that he is in error. Lately he has take to making flat assertions as if they were not in any doubt. For example: “the Olmecs made tools from jade”— completely false (Mesoamerican tools and weapons were made from flint and obsidian). Just to avoid photographic spam—jade was never USED as a tool or weapon – although ceremonial objects were made that resembled tools or weapons. Further – Amazonite is NOT jade it is feldspar and easily fractured.
Here I will just deal with one of these assertions- which have been shown to be false as far back as 1998. Above, Winters wrote “The Mayan term for maize is Ka the same as the Mande term.” (1).Winters almost never provides citations for his numerous comparison of different languages (something y’all should be asking about). His Mande words are taken from Delafosse and in 1998 he finally revealed that his source for Mayan words was Swadesh (1970). (2) Since Winters wants to compare Mande words in 1200-1500 B.C. The appropriate comparison would be proto-Mande with proto-Maya since neither Mande nor Maya existed this far back. There is no published source for proto-Mande but there ARE sources for proto-Maya. (3) I won’t deal here with Winters erroneous phonetic transcriptions or his absolute refusal to acknowledge that Mayan languages use the CONSONANT glottal stop (here (‘).
First Ka is NOT the Maya word for maize Beginning with proto-Maya the word is derived from *ii(glottal stop)m. As you can see below all the Maya names are derived as ixim. I put in the Mixe and the Otomi languages because Winters has claimed that these languages too are related to Mande. Please notice that Winters is misquoting his own source (Swadesh 1970). The word ka on page 56 of Swadesh means “bile, something bitter. Maize proto-Maya Brown & Wichtman p. 145 *ii’m Tzotzil Haviland p. 22 ‘ixi Otomi Neve p.63 dethâ Mixe Popoluca Oluta p.89 mocU Mixe Popoluca Soyula p. 70 mojc Quiche Christianson ixim Yucatec Cordemex p. 275 ixim; corn cob p. 557 nal Chorti Wisdom p. 71 ixim Chuj Hopkins p. 27 ‘ixim Swadesh p.119 ixim Proto-Maya *ii’m,, Yuc- i’im; K’ich –iim; Chl-im So much for the Maya side of the comparison.
How about Mande Ka for maize? 1) There is no archaeological or botanical evidence for the presence of maize in West Africa before the Portuguese. 2) Commonly when foreign or new plants or objects are introduced into a society, either the name for it is borrowed or given a name that associates it with a similar thing and adds the source. For example in Nahuatl (Aztec language) Maize = tlaolli therefore wheat =castillan tlaolli (Spanish maize); sweet potato = camotli therefore carrot = castillan camotli (Spanish sweet potato); rabbit =tochtli therefore donkey = castillan tochtli (Spanish rabbit—because the shape of the ears. The Mande did the same thing both borrow words or associate a known plant with a newly introduced plant. Delafosse (1929) writes this:
quote:p. 479 mă (mă-n) “master” (and specially master of the soil), landowner, lord, ancestor, spirits of the ancestors, primitive inhabitant of West Africa who had preceded the Blacks in the continent of Africa, and their memory remains as those who are really the owners of the land, pigmies or negrille considered survivors of the state of the invisible inhabitants that prefer the forests and the rivers, a variety of antelope called “water beast” which is seen as incarnating the spirit of the ancient inhabitants of the country, the manatee which is seen as the incarnation of the spirit of the master of the water.
As you can see in Delafosse (1929), the use of “ma was extended to introduced non-native plants.
480 mă-mbendč, măbenč (lit sesame of the master) small bean mă-/ng/gye, mă-ndye (lit “squash of the master”) papaya Carica papaya
mă-ngkala (lit “stalk of the master”) sugar cane mă-ngyon (lit “millet of the master”) maize, Zea mais 481 mă-ngyon-gbč-ma (lit “white millet of the master”) white maize mă-ngyon-kolo (heart of the stalk of maize) corn cob similarly many others, maize of many colors, red maize, brown maize for couscous, maize kernel three-month maize mă-ntiga, mă-ndiga (lit “spider of the master)
3) Below are a number of citations for maize:
Koelle 1853 p. 205 nyoro- corn, Indian corn, maize
Delafosse 1901 p. 90 (mäis)—mosono- ngyo; kaba
Delafosse 1955.
p. 315 kâ (kan) (“maize”)
kâ-ba, kâ-mba and kâ-ma (“large species maize; maize in general”); kâba-foro (“maize silk sheath”); kâ-ba tou (“maize silk”); kâ-ba-wule (“brown grain maize”)
p. 338 kangga and kâga (“maize”); (kanga-ba “large kernel maize”); cf. mandingue kâ 1
pp. 479-481 mâ “master, landowner, ancestor” mâ/ng/yô (literally “millet of the master’) maize (Zea mays); mâ-ngyô- mba (“high stem late maize”); mâ-ngyô-da-si (“maize silk”); mâ-ngyô- gbč-ma (“white maize”); mâ-ngyô-wulu-gyali (literally “dog’s blood maize”) red maize
p. 484 maka (“maize”) perhaps for maka-ngyô or ma/rh/a-ngyo (“millet of the master”); cf. mâ-ngyo at mâ 1; cf Sarakolle and Wolof- maka
p. 516 moso-no-ngyo maize (lit. sorghum [bom millet] in a sheath)
p. 583 ngyo – sorghum or large millet (Andropogon sorghum), millet properly or little millet (Pennisetum), food grain in general %%% Delafosse 1929
p. 525 maize = mâ/ng/yô; mara-ngyo; M maka-ngyo; maka; moso-no-ngyo; kâ-ba; kangga; kanga-ba; kâ maize silk = kâ-ba foro; kâ-ba-tou %%%% Innes 1969 p. 119 nyo = maize, Indian corn; nyoi ji hingo “this corn has a full head” Kepele ~ Sierra Leone = bulrush millet; pe ~ a variety of millet
%%%%% Bird and Kante 1977 p. 22 manyň corn p. 46 corn (uncooked grain) = manyň corn (for eating, cooked) = kaba
p. 63 millet (white millet) nyň %%%%%%% References
Mande Bird, C and Kante, M. 1977 Bambara-English, English-Bambara Student Lexicon Bloomington: Indiana University Linguistics Club
Delafosse, M. 1901 Essai de Manuel pratique de la langue mande ou mandinge Paris: Ernest Leroux Editeur
Delafosse, Maurice. 1929. La Langue Mandingue et ses Dialectes (Malinke, Bambara, Dioula). Vol 1. Intro. Grammaire, Lexique Francais-Mandingue). Paris: Librarie Orientaliste Paul Geuthner
Delafosse, Maurice. 1955. La Langue Mandingue et ses Dialectes (Malinke, Bambara, Dioula). Vol 2. Dictionnaire Mandingue-Francaise. Paris: Librarie Paul Geuthner
Innes, G. 1969 A Mende-English Dictionary Cambridge: Cambridge University Press
Koelle, S. W. 1854 Outlines of a Grammar of the Vei Language. London: Church Missionary House
Maya Barrera Vasquez, A., et al. 1980 Diccionario Maya Cordemex Merida: Ediciones Cordemex
Brown, C. and Wichmann 2004 “Proto-Mayan Syllable Nuclei,” International Journal of Applied Linguistics 70@): 128-186
Laughlin,R. M. 1975 The Great Tzotzil Dictionary of San Lorenzo Zinacantan Washington, DC: Smithsonian Institution Press
Swadesh, Alvarez and Bastarrachea 1970 Diccionario de Elementos del Maya Yucatec Colonial Mexico: UNAM
Wisdom, C. 1950 Chorti-English Dictionary
The Mayan term for Maize is of Mande/Olmec origin. The Mayan term for maize is K'unah, not ixim.
People have assumed that the Portuguese introduced Maize to Africa but there is no evidence that they spread the cultivation of Maize to Africa (Miracle,1965).
The first mention of Maize outside of Mexico by the Portuguese was in 1550, by Giovanni Battista Ramusio, who claimed that Maize was being cultivated in the Islands of Săo Tomé and Principe (Paz-Sanchez,2013). Although Maize was being cultivated on the Islands, there is no mention of Portuguese introducing the cultivation of the crop to Africa.
References:
Miracle, M.P. (1965).The Introduction and Spread of Maize in Africa, The Journal of African History, 6(1):39-55.
This is irrelevant since your etymology both in Maya and Mande is false and erroneous.
Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Olmec probably took Maize back to the Mande in Africa. As a result,the Mande and Maya share the same terms for Maize.
EM+GQ *k'uu=nhaah AKA k'unah AKA k'unah POP k'unhah POP k'unhah
Here we discover that Mayan term for Maize is K’unah.
In Delafosse , La Langue Mandingue et ses Dialectes (Malinke, Bambara, Dioula (1955) he notes on page 315 kâ (kan) is “maize”, in the Mande languages. It is obvious from a cursory examination of Mayan K’unah, and Mande Kan, that they are related, not only do they have the same meaning they also share the same phonetic construction K-N.
As I said earlier Bernard Ortiz de Montellano, you are a liar interested only in deceiving people.
The person in this forum who is the biggest liar, misquoter, and provider of false or missing references is ]YOU- Clyde. If your acolytes would take the trouble to check your supposed etymologies and quotes they would see this easily.
Here we have a number of points and some elementary linguistics to teach you. 1) to compare Mande at 1200 BC you would need to compare to proto-Maya rather than modern languages. 2) Your citation of Kaufmann is as usual incomplete and misleading. The EM+GQ proto –term you cite only applies to Eastern Maya and Konjuba and Katoke—not the usual languages you keep bringing up, i.e. Yukatek and K’iche. My citation of pM (proto-Maya) is much older than the one you cite and applies to many more Mayan languages. 3) Since you deny the existence of glottal stops (which are consonants and cannot be discarded in your usual fashion), how do you compare Maya which is full of Glottal stops and Mande which has none? 4) In order to cheat and make you comparisons seem more probable you never put in the vowels of a word—how can you deal with a language like the Maya where vowel length changes the meaning of a word ?—you can’t and this practice would be rejected by any legitimate peer reviewed linguistics journal (where you have never published a paper).
so on to your use of Kaufmann p. 1057
1) how can you say that k(Glottal Stop)uu=naah is the same as ka or kan. where is the consonant (Glottal Stop] why do you keep the n but somehow disregard /h/ which is a consonant and not to be discarded even in your methods/.
2) Why do you only partially quote Justeson (a favorite trick of yours? This is what Justeson writes
AKA k(glottal stop)unah AKA k(glottal stop)unah POP k(glottal stop)unah POP k(glottal stop)unah MaMo k(Glottal stop)uja----- no longer n but j IXL k(Glottal stop)uja- USP k(Glottal stop)uja- USP k(Glottal stop)uja- KCHq k(Glottal stop)uja- KCHq k(Glottal stop)uja- KCHc k(Glottal stop)uja- KCHc k(Glottal stop)uja- KAQc k(Glottal stop)ujay—no longer n but j and y KAQc k(Glottal stop)ujay KAQi k(Glottal stop)ujay KAQi k(Glottal stop)ujay
Winter only cites 4 of 16 examples because the other 12 would not fit even his distorted methodology.
AND FINALLY Another favorite Winters linguistic trick is to claim resemblances where there is only a tenuous relationship between the words being compared. Here k(glottal stop)unah is supposed to mean “maize”—just like MY much older and widely diffused Maya term- [ixim to fit the Mande ka BUT k(glottal stop)unah does [not[/b] mean “maize” What Justeson writes as the meaning is “troja, granero Redondo, granero cuadrado” i.e. “granary, square granary, round granary”
Winters duplicity is clearly demonstrated and my original post remains intact.
LOL.It doesn't matter that there are more terms for maize, the fact remains the Mayan term for Maize: K'unah agrees with Kan just like I said. Anyone interested can go to page 1057 See: http://www.famsi.org/reports/01051/pmed.pdf
quote:Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl: try for the 3rd time. Originally a response to a thread on Native Americans being black
As usual, Clyde Winters fills the air waves with spam with the hope that the sheer volume will deter people from checking up on his data and sources. I have dealt with practically everything about Mesoamerica that he just posted here. A search of this forum will come up with megabytes on these topics. As you have seen, Winters NEVER acknowledges that he is in error. Lately he has take to making flat assertions as if they were not in any doubt. For example: “the Olmecs made tools from jade”— completely false (Mesoamerican tools and weapons were made from flint and obsidian). Just to avoid photographic spam—jade was never USED as a tool or weapon – although ceremonial objects were made that resembled tools or weapons. Further – Amazonite is NOT jade it is feldspar and easily fractured.
Here I will just deal with one of these assertions- which have been shown to be false as far back as 1998. Above, Winters wrote “The Mayan term for maize is Ka the same as the Mande term.” (1).Winters almost never provides citations for his numerous comparison of different languages (something y’all should be asking about). His Mande words are taken from Delafosse and in 1998 he finally revealed that his source for Mayan words was Swadesh (1970). (2) Since Winters wants to compare Mande words in 1200-1500 B.C. The appropriate comparison would be proto-Mande with proto-Maya since neither Mande nor Maya existed this far back. There is no published source for proto-Mande but there ARE sources for proto-Maya. (3) I won’t deal here with Winters erroneous phonetic transcriptions or his absolute refusal to acknowledge that Mayan languages use the CONSONANT glottal stop (here (‘).
First Ka is NOT the Maya word for maize Beginning with proto-Maya the word is derived from *ii(glottal stop)m. As you can see below all the Maya names are derived as ixim. I put in the Mixe and the Otomi languages because Winters has claimed that these languages too are related to Mande. Please notice that Winters is misquoting his own source (Swadesh 1970). The word ka on page 56 of Swadesh means “bile, something bitter. Maize proto-Maya Brown & Wichtman p. 145 *ii’m Tzotzil Haviland p. 22 ‘ixi Otomi Neve p.63 dethâ Mixe Popoluca Oluta p.89 mocU Mixe Popoluca Soyula p. 70 mojc Quiche Christianson ixim Yucatec Cordemex p. 275 ixim; corn cob p. 557 nal Chorti Wisdom p. 71 ixim Chuj Hopkins p. 27 ‘ixim Swadesh p.119 ixim Proto-Maya *ii’m,, Yuc- i’im; K’ich –iim; Chl-im So much for the Maya side of the comparison.
How about Mande Ka for maize? 1) There is no archaeological or botanical evidence for the presence of maize in West Africa before the Portuguese. 2) Commonly when foreign or new plants or objects are introduced into a society, either the name for it is borrowed or given a name that associates it with a similar thing and adds the source. For example in Nahuatl (Aztec language) Maize = tlaolli therefore wheat =castillan tlaolli (Spanish maize); sweet potato = camotli therefore carrot = castillan camotli (Spanish sweet potato); rabbit =tochtli therefore donkey = castillan tochtli (Spanish rabbit—because the shape of the ears. The Mande did the same thing both borrow words or associate a known plant with a newly introduced plant. Delafosse (1929) writes this:
quote:p. 479 mă (mă-n) “master” (and specially master of the soil), landowner, lord, ancestor, spirits of the ancestors, primitive inhabitant of West Africa who had preceded the Blacks in the continent of Africa, and their memory remains as those who are really the owners of the land, pigmies or negrille considered survivors of the state of the invisible inhabitants that prefer the forests and the rivers, a variety of antelope called “water beast” which is seen as incarnating the spirit of the ancient inhabitants of the country, the manatee which is seen as the incarnation of the spirit of the master of the water.
As you can see in Delafosse (1929), the use of “ma was extended to introduced non-native plants.
480 mă-mbendč, măbenč (lit sesame of the master) small bean mă-/ng/gye, mă-ndye (lit “squash of the master”) papaya Carica papaya
mă-ngkala (lit “stalk of the master”) sugar cane mă-ngyon (lit “millet of the master”) maize, Zea mais 481 mă-ngyon-gbč-ma (lit “white millet of the master”) white maize mă-ngyon-kolo (heart of the stalk of maize) corn cob similarly many others, maize of many colors, red maize, brown maize for couscous, maize kernel three-month maize mă-ntiga, mă-ndiga (lit “spider of the master)
3) Below are a number of citations for maize:
Koelle 1853 p. 205 nyoro- corn, Indian corn, maize
Delafosse 1901 p. 90 (mäis)—mosono- ngyo; kaba
Delafosse 1955.
p. 315 kâ (kan) (“maize”)
kâ-ba, kâ-mba and kâ-ma (“large species maize; maize in general”); kâba-foro (“maize silk sheath”); kâ-ba tou (“maize silk”); kâ-ba-wule (“brown grain maize”)
p. 338 kangga and kâga (“maize”); (kanga-ba “large kernel maize”); cf. mandingue kâ 1
pp. 479-481 mâ “master, landowner, ancestor” mâ/ng/yô (literally “millet of the master’) maize (Zea mays); mâ-ngyô- mba (“high stem late maize”); mâ-ngyô-da-si (“maize silk”); mâ-ngyô- gbč-ma (“white maize”); mâ-ngyô-wulu-gyali (literally “dog’s blood maize”) red maize
p. 484 maka (“maize”) perhaps for maka-ngyô or ma/rh/a-ngyo (“millet of the master”); cf. mâ-ngyo at mâ 1; cf Sarakolle and Wolof- maka
p. 516 moso-no-ngyo maize (lit. sorghum [bom millet] in a sheath)
p. 583 ngyo – sorghum or large millet (Andropogon sorghum), millet properly or little millet (Pennisetum), food grain in general %%% Delafosse 1929
p. 525 maize = mâ/ng/yô; mara-ngyo; M maka-ngyo; maka; moso-no-ngyo; kâ-ba; kangga; kanga-ba; kâ maize silk = kâ-ba foro; kâ-ba-tou %%%% Innes 1969 p. 119 nyo = maize, Indian corn; nyoi ji hingo “this corn has a full head” Kepele ~ Sierra Leone = bulrush millet; pe ~ a variety of millet
%%%%% Bird and Kante 1977 p. 22 manyň corn p. 46 corn (uncooked grain) = manyň corn (for eating, cooked) = kaba
p. 63 millet (white millet) nyň %%%%%%% References
Mande Bird, C and Kante, M. 1977 Bambara-English, English-Bambara Student Lexicon Bloomington: Indiana University Linguistics Club
Delafosse, M. 1901 Essai de Manuel pratique de la langue mande ou mandinge Paris: Ernest Leroux Editeur
Delafosse, Maurice. 1929. La Langue Mandingue et ses Dialectes (Malinke, Bambara, Dioula). Vol 1. Intro. Grammaire, Lexique Francais-Mandingue). Paris: Librarie Orientaliste Paul Geuthner
Delafosse, Maurice. 1955. La Langue Mandingue et ses Dialectes (Malinke, Bambara, Dioula). Vol 2. Dictionnaire Mandingue-Francaise. Paris: Librarie Paul Geuthner
Innes, G. 1969 A Mende-English Dictionary Cambridge: Cambridge University Press
Koelle, S. W. 1854 Outlines of a Grammar of the Vei Language. London: Church Missionary House
Maya Barrera Vasquez, A., et al. 1980 Diccionario Maya Cordemex Merida: Ediciones Cordemex
Brown, C. and Wichmann 2004 “Proto-Mayan Syllable Nuclei,” International Journal of Applied Linguistics 70@): 128-186
Laughlin,R. M. 1975 The Great Tzotzil Dictionary of San Lorenzo Zinacantan Washington, DC: Smithsonian Institution Press
Swadesh, Alvarez and Bastarrachea 1970 Diccionario de Elementos del Maya Yucatec Colonial Mexico: UNAM
Wisdom, C. 1950 Chorti-English Dictionary
The Mayan term for Maize is of Mande/Olmec origin. The Mayan term for maize is K'unah, not ixim.
People have assumed that the Portuguese introduced Maize to Africa but there is no evidence that they spread the cultivation of Maize to Africa (Miracle,1965).
The first mention of Maize outside of Mexico by the Portuguese was in 1550, by Giovanni Battista Ramusio, who claimed that Maize was being cultivated in the Islands of Săo Tomé and Principe (Paz-Sanchez,2013). Although Maize was being cultivated on the Islands, there is no mention of Portuguese introducing the cultivation of the crop to Africa.
References:
Miracle, M.P. (1965).The Introduction and Spread of Maize in Africa, The Journal of African History, 6(1):39-55.
This is irrelevant since your etymology both in Maya and Mande is false and erroneous.
Bernard Ortiz de Montellano you are a Liar. As usual instead of proving me wrong based on the evidence you hope people will take your word , with a wink that you are right. LOL. But it is obvious from a cursory examination of Mayan K’unah, and Mande Kan, that they are related, not only do they have the same meaning they also share the same phonetic construction K-N.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Olmec probably took Maize back to the Mande in Africa. As a result,the Mande and Maya share the same terms for Maize.
EM+GQ *k'uu=nhaah AKA k'unah AKA k'unah POP k'unhah POP k'unhah
Here we discover that Mayan term for Maize is K’unah.
In Delafosse , La Langue Mandingue et ses Dialectes (Malinke, Bambara, Dioula (1955) he notes on page 315 kâ (kan) is “maize”, in the Mande languages. It is obvious from a cursory examination of Mayan K’unah, and Mande Kan, that they are related, not only do they have the same meaning they also share the same phonetic construction K-N.
As I said earlier Bernard Ortiz de Montellano, you are a liar interested only in deceiving people.
The person in this forum who is the biggest liar, misquoter, and provider of false or missing references is ]YOU- Clyde. If your acolytes would take the trouble to check your supposed etymologies and quotes they would see this easily.
Here we have a number of points and some elementary linguistics to teach you. 1) to compare Mande at 1200 BC you would need to compare to proto-Maya rather than modern languages. 2) Your citation of Kaufmann is as usual incomplete and misleading. The EM+GQ proto –term you cite only applies to Eastern Maya and Konjuba and Katoke—not the usual languages you keep bringing up, i.e. Yukatek and K’iche. My citation of pM (proto-Maya) is much older than the one you cite and applies to many more Mayan languages. 3) Since you deny the existence of glottal stops (which are consonants and cannot be discarded in your usual fashion), how do you compare Maya which is full of Glottal stops and Mande which has none? 4) In order to cheat and make you comparisons seem more probable you never put in the vowels of a word—how can you deal with a language like the Maya where vowel length changes the meaning of a word ?—you can’t and this practice would be rejected by any legitimate peer reviewed linguistics journal (where you have never published a paper).
so on to your use of Kaufmann p. 1057
1) how can you say that k(Glottal Stop)uu=naah is the same as ka or kan. where is the consonant (Glottal Stop] why do you keep the n but somehow disregard /h/ which is a consonant and not to be discarded even in your methods/.
2) Why do you only partially quote Justeson (a favorite trick of yours? This is what Justeson writes
AKA k(glottal stop)unah AKA k(glottal stop)unah POP k(glottal stop)unah POP k(glottal stop)unah MaMo k(Glottal stop)uja----- no longer n but j IXL k(Glottal stop)uja- USP k(Glottal stop)uja- USP k(Glottal stop)uja- KCHq k(Glottal stop)uja- KCHq k(Glottal stop)uja- KCHc k(Glottal stop)uja- KCHc k(Glottal stop)uja- KAQc k(Glottal stop)ujay—no longer n but j and y KAQc k(Glottal stop)ujay KAQi k(Glottal stop)ujay KAQi k(Glottal stop)ujay
Winter only cites 4 of 16 examples because the other 12 would not fit even his distorted methodology.
AND FINALLY Another favorite Winters linguistic trick is to claim resemblances where there is only a tenuous relationship between the words being compared. Here k(glottal stop)unah is supposed to mean “maize”—just like MY much older and widely diffused Maya term- [ixim to fit the Mande ka BUT k(glottal stop)unah does [not[/b] mean “maize” What Justeson writes as the meaning is “troja, granero Redondo, granero cuadrado” i.e. “granary, square granary, round granary”
Winters duplicity is clearly demonstrated and my original post remains intact.
LOL.It doesn't matter that there are more terms for maize, the fact remains the Mayan term for Maize: K'unah agrees with Kan just like I said. Anyone interested can go to page 1057 See: http://www.famsi.org/reports/01051/pmed.pdf
It is obvious you need to do better research.
.
.
The only problem is that k(Glottal stop)nah as well as the other more numerous forms k(Glottsal Stop)uja and k(Glottal Stop)ujay don't mean maize but granary. You can spin, you can spam, you whirle like a dervish, but anyone who can read can see your emperor is naked.
Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
Quetzalcoatl, keep it up. Its good to have more people who confront Winters about all of his false claims. I truly believe he makes his money purposely fooling young afro Americans into believing a false history to get them to buy his books.
Posts: 116 | From: Birmingham, AL | Registered: Oct 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl: The only problem is that k(Glottal stop)nah as well as the other more numerous forms k(Glottsal Stop)uja and k(Glottal Stop)ujay don't mean maize but granary. You can spin, you can spam, you whirle like a dervish, but anyone who can read can see your emperor is naked.
The k+glottal stop does nothing to change the phonetic structure of the Mande and Mayan terms for maize, because the structure for both terms is K--N. In addition, they have the same meaning and therefore ,are translation equivalents a feature which indicates a common origin for the term "maize".
As a result on semantic grounds we can make a formal comparison of the Mande k and Mayan k' because of their filiation. Thusly, there is true equivalence between k'unah and kan which makes them prima facie evidence of a common descent.
posted
LOL. You don't know anything about comparative linguistics. In comparative linguistics you look for analogous consonants to determine a relationship.
For example lets look at the word feeble 'weak': (Latin) flabilis > (Fr.)faible > (Eng) Feeble=weak. If you notice these words have different vowels, but they share a similar phonological pattern: f-b-l. The words from these diverse languages shows regular sound correspondences. Thus we can say they are related.
You only concentrate on vowels when reconstructing a proto-language.
You would know this if you were a linguist. In Mande languages ku= to be sacre.
Above [p.381] you can see that ku='[ etre sacre] to be sacre'. Due to the regular correspondence between Mayan K’u ,qu [/i] and Mande Ku I wrote God C is personification of the concept of sacreness.
God C
It has the phonetic value of ku or ch’in deity or sacreness. The Mayan term for deity/god is of Mande Olmec origin:
Maya ……..English………Mande
Kin………….day…………..kene
K’u,ku……..sacre,god………Ku
You don't know anything about comparative linguistics. You look for analogous consonants to determine a relationship.
For example lets look at the word feeble 'weak': (Latin) flabilis > (Fr.)faible > (Eng) Feeble=weak. If you notice these words have different vowels, but they share a similar phonological pattern: f-b-l. The words from these diverse languages shows regular sound correspondences. Thus we can say they are related.
The same thing is true of Mayan Ku/Qu 'god' and Mande Ku 'to be sacre'. To be sacre corresponds to 'god'.
You only concentrate on vowels when reconstructing a proto-language.
You would know this if you were a linguist. The glottal stop is associated with the pronunciation of vowels and consonants. See:
You attempt to make it appear that there is no relationship between the Mayan and Mande languages because of the glottal stop. You claim that you can not determine a relationship between these languages because the glottal stop in Mayan languages represent a consonant. This is not necessarially true. Granted there are five glottalized Mayan consonants ch’, k’, p’, t’ and ts’, but most glottal stops in the Mayan languages is associated with vowel sounds. See:
A Brief Introduction to Yucatec Mayan Copyright D. R. Shreve, 1999 Also see English-Mayan dictionary
To get a great phrase book by the late John Montgomery
Pronunciation Relatively little time has passed between the current way of spelling Mayan words and how they are pronounced. For that reason alone, there has been little opportunity for the oral to diverge from the written, and so, it is usually important to pronounce each letter shown. Commonly contracted word combinations will be spelled as such. Most letters shown here are pronounced as in English, except that the following are always pronounced as follows: a, like the a in father. b, silent if at the end of a plural noun or verb. e, as the a in lake. i, as the ee in feel. o, as the o in bowl. x, the sh as in shoe. Two vowels in a row are longer than a single vowel. In any situation, this tends to give the syllable they are in an emphasis. For example, beetik (to do) has more accent in the first syllable. Two vowels with an accent on the first one slightly emphasize that first vowel. Note that this does not create a second syllable in the word, just a slight shift in emphasis. Some consonants have an accent mark after them and are another matter. These are glottalized letters and are pronounced with a quick expulsion of air, for example: ch’, k’, p’, t’ and ts’ . One way to hear these letters glottalized is to go to your library and get a recording of Stephen Hawking speaking. When his artificial voice pronounces these letters at the end of a word, it glottalizes them. Barring this, the p’ is easiest to describe. Pretend you are disgusted with something, and spit out "Pah." Spit toward the ground and away from the wind. Now be a bit more amiable, and less explosive and try it in the word p’aak, or tomato, which is far different in meaning from paak, a verb meaning to double. With ch’, k’, t’ and ts’, what you need to do is to form the letters in your mouth as you normally would, but at the very beginning, force them out quickly. The k includes a clicking sound. Remember that in Yucatec, as far as pronunciation goes, the only difference between some words, such as kaax (a chicken) and k’aax (jungle) is the way you say the glottalized sound. This may not be a problem, since you are much more likely to refer to fried chicken (kaax tsabil) than to talk about felling some jungle (luubsik k’aax), but it could be confusing if you are trying to say k beetik (or, we do) instead of k’abeetik (it is very necessary to...). Vowels with an apostrophe following them indicate a glottal stop, such as when a person quickly says "oh oh," though the actual stoppage may seem barely noticeable, and may, at other times, be better described as a glottal pause. At the end of a word you cut the vowel in two by shutting it off with your windpipe. In any word of more than one syllable, the stop will tend to emphasize the preceding portion of the word. For example, waye’ (here) pronounced wa-YEAH, though with the glottal stop it is more like wa-YE, because you must cut it short. Once you realize that most Maya place names seem to be heavily accented in the last syllable, it is easy to assume the same for the other words, but that is not the case. One situation is when the word is normally a one syllable word that you have added to, the root word will still be accented. For example, when bel (road) is plural, as in belo'ob or you are referring to that road, as in le belo or even those roads le belo'obo, the accent will normally remain on bel. There will be the slight emphasis caused by a double vowel or a glottal stop, but, other than that, the best bet with a word of more than one syllable is to pronounce them all with equal emphasis.
Given this reality we can see a relationship between Mande Ku ‘sacre’ and Mayan K’u ‘god’ We still have the K sound, eventhough there is the glottal Mayan K’. See:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Olmec probably took Maize back to the Mande in Africa. As a result,the Mande and Maya share the same terms for Maize.
EM+GQ *k'uu=nhaah AKA k'unah AKA k'unah POP k'unhah POP k'unhah
Here we discover that Mayan term for Maize is K’unah.
In Delafosse , La Langue Mandingue et ses Dialectes (Malinke, Bambara, Dioula (1955) he notes on page 315 kâ (kan) is “maize”, in the Mande languages. It is obvious from a cursory examination of Mayan K’unah, and Mande Kan, that they are related, not only do they have the same meaning they also share the same phonetic construction K-N.
As I said earlier Bernard Ortiz de Montellano, you are a liar interested only in deceiving people.
The person in this forum who is the biggest liar, misquoter, and provider of false or missing references is ]YOU- Clyde. If your acolytes would take the trouble to check your supposed etymologies and quotes they would see this easily.
Here we have a number of points and some elementary linguistics to teach you. 1) to compare Mande at 1200 BC you would need to compare to proto-Maya rather than modern languages. 2) Your citation of Kaufmann is as usual incomplete and misleading. The EM+GQ proto –term you cite only applies to Eastern Maya and Konjuba and Katoke—not the usual languages you keep bringing up, i.e. Yukatek and K’iche. My citation of pM (proto-Maya) is much older than the one you cite and applies to many more Mayan languages. 3) Since you deny the existence of glottal stops (which are consonants and cannot be discarded in your usual fashion), how do you compare Maya which is full of Glottal stops and Mande which has none? 4) In order to cheat and make you comparisons seem more probable you never put in the vowels of a word—how can you deal with a language like the Maya where vowel length changes the meaning of a word ?—you can’t and this practice would be rejected by any legitimate peer reviewed linguistics journal (where you have never published a paper).
so on to your use of Kaufmann p. 1057
1) how can you say that k(Glottal Stop)uu=naah is the same as ka or kan. where is the consonant (Glottal Stop] why do you keep the n but somehow disregard /h/ which is a consonant and not to be discarded even in your methods/.
2) Why do you only partially quote Justeson (a favorite trick of yours? This is what Justeson writes
AKA k(glottal stop)unah AKA k(glottal stop)unah POP k(glottal stop)unah POP k(glottal stop)unah MaMo k(Glottal stop)uja----- no longer n but j IXL k(Glottal stop)uja- USP k(Glottal stop)uja- USP k(Glottal stop)uja- KCHq k(Glottal stop)uja- KCHq k(Glottal stop)uja- KCHc k(Glottal stop)uja- KCHc k(Glottal stop)uja- KAQc k(Glottal stop)ujay—no longer n but j and y KAQc k(Glottal stop)ujay KAQi k(Glottal stop)ujay KAQi k(Glottal stop)ujay
Winter only cites 4 of 16 examples because the other 12 would not fit even his distorted methodology.
AND FINALLY Another favorite Winters linguistic trick is to claim resemblances where there is only a tenuous relationship between the words being compared. Here k(glottal stop)unah is supposed to mean “maize”—just like MY much older and widely diffused Maya term- [ixim to fit the Mande ka BUT k(glottal stop)unah does [not[/b] mean “maize” What Justeson writes as the meaning is “troja, granero Redondo, granero cuadrado” i.e. “granary, square granary, round granary”
Winters duplicity is clearly demonstrated and my original post remains intact.
LOL.It doesn't matter that there are more terms for maize, the fact remains the Mayan term for Maize: K'unah agrees with Kan just like I said. Anyone interested can go to page 1057 See: http://www.famsi.org/reports/01051/pmed.pdf
It is obvious you need to do better research.
.
Again trying to divert attention from your basic error. k'unah means granary in Maya NOT maize, so anything you say about is irrelevant. Additionally your transcription of the word is wrong even with you flawed methodology of ignoring the glottal stop. The word for "granary" in Maya should be readK-N-H NOT K-N. You can't just ignore the (H) or the fact that "granary is also spelled K--J AND K-J-Y.
Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: LOL. You don't know anything about comparative linguistics. In comparative linguistics you look for analogous consonants to determine a relationship.
For example lets look at the word feeble 'weak': (Latin) flabilis > (Fr.)faible > (Eng) Feeble=weak. If you notice these words have different vowels, but they share a similar phonological pattern: f-b-l. The words from these diverse languages shows regular sound correspondences. Thus we can say they are related.
You only concentrate on vowels when reconstructing a proto-language.
You would know this if you were a linguist. In Mande languages ku= to be sacre.
Above [p.381] you can see that ku='[ etre sacre] to be sacre'. Due to the regular correspondence between Mayan K’u ,qu [/i] and Mande Ku I wrote God C is personification of the concept of sacreness.
God C
It has the phonetic value of ku or ch’in deity or sacreness. The Mayan term for deity/god is of Mande Olmec origin:
Maya ……..English………Mande
Kin………….day…………..kene
K’u,ku……..sacre,god………Ku
You don't know anything about comparative linguistics. You look for analogous consonants to determine a relationship.
For example lets look at the word feeble 'weak': (Latin) flabilis > (Fr.)faible > (Eng) Feeble=weak. If you notice these words have different vowels, but they share a similar phonological pattern: f-b-l. The words from these diverse languages shows regular sound correspondences. Thus we can say they are related.
The same thing is true of Mayan Ku/Qu 'god' and Mande Ku 'to be sacre'. To be sacre corresponds to 'god'.
You only concentrate on vowels when reconstructing a proto-language.
You would know this if you were a linguist. The glottal stop is associated with the pronunciation of vowels and consonants. See:
You attempt to make it appear that there is no relationship between the Mayan and Mande languages because of the glottal stop. You claim that you can not determine a relationship between these languages because the glottal stop in Mayan languages represent a consonant. This is not necessarially true. Granted there are five glottalized Mayan consonants ch’, k’, p’, t’ and ts’, but most glottal stops in the Mayan languages is associated with vowel sounds. See:
A Brief Introduction to Yucatec Mayan Copyright D. R. Shreve, 1999 Also see English-Mayan dictionary
To get a great phrase book by the late John Montgomery
Pronunciation Relatively little time has passed between the current way of spelling Mayan words and how they are pronounced. For that reason alone, there has been little opportunity for the oral to diverge from the written, and so, it is usually important to pronounce each letter shown. Commonly contracted word combinations will be spelled as such. Most letters shown here are pronounced as in English, except that the following are always pronounced as follows: a, like the a in father. b, silent if at the end of a plural noun or verb. e, as the a in lake. i, as the ee in feel. o, as the o in bowl. x, the sh as in shoe. Two vowels in a row are longer than a single vowel. In any situation, this tends to give the syllable they are in an emphasis. For example, beetik (to do) has more accent in the first syllable. Two vowels with an accent on the first one slightly emphasize that first vowel. Note that this does not create a second syllable in the word, just a slight shift in emphasis. Some consonants have an accent mark after them and are another matter. These are glottalized letters and are pronounced with a quick expulsion of air, for example: ch’, k’, p’, t’ and ts’ . One way to hear these letters glottalized is to go to your library and get a recording of Stephen Hawking speaking. When his artificial voice pronounces these letters at the end of a word, it glottalizes them. Barring this, the p’ is easiest to describe. Pretend you are disgusted with something, and spit out "Pah." Spit toward the ground and away from the wind. Now be a bit more amiable, and less explosive and try it in the word p’aak, or tomato, which is far different in meaning from paak, a verb meaning to double. With ch’, k’, t’ and ts’, what you need to do is to form the letters in your mouth as you normally would, but at the very beginning, force them out quickly. The k includes a clicking sound. Remember that in Yucatec, as far as pronunciation goes, the only difference between some words, such as kaax (a chicken) and k’aax (jungle) is the way you say the glottalized sound. This may not be a problem, since you are much more likely to refer to fried chicken (kaax tsabil) than to talk about felling some jungle (luubsik k’aax), but it could be confusing if you are trying to say k beetik (or, we do) instead of k’abeetik (it is very necessary to...). Vowels with an apostrophe following them indicate a glottal stop, such as when a person quickly says "oh oh," though the actual stoppage may seem barely noticeable, and may, at other times, be better described as a glottal pause. At the end of a word you cut the vowel in two by shutting it off with your windpipe. In any word of more than one syllable, the stop will tend to emphasize the preceding portion of the word. For example, waye’ (here) pronounced wa-YEAH, though with the glottal stop it is more like wa-YE, because you must cut it short. Once you realize that most Maya place names seem to be heavily accented in the last syllable, it is easy to assume the same for the other words, but that is not the case. One situation is when the word is normally a one syllable word that you have added to, the root word will still be accented. For example, when bel (road) is plural, as in belo'ob or you are referring to that road, as in le belo or even those roads le belo'obo, the accent will normally remain on bel. There will be the slight emphasis caused by a double vowel or a glottal stop, but, other than that, the best bet with a word of more than one syllable is to pronounce them all with equal emphasis.
Given this reality we can see a relationship between Mande Ku ‘sacre’ and Mayan K’u ‘god’ We still have the K sound, eventhough there is the glottal Mayan K’. See:
Irrelevant spam to distract from the basic fact that k(glottal stop) in Maya means "granary" and NOT maize.Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl: The only problem is that k(Glottal stop)nah as well as the other more numerous forms k(Glottsal Stop)uja and k(Glottal Stop)ujay don't mean maize but granary. You can spin, you can spam, you whirle like a dervish, but anyone who can read can see your emperor is naked.
The k+glottal stop does nothing to change the phonetic structure of the Mande and Mayan terms for maize, because the structure for both terms is K--N. In addition, they have the same meaning and therefore ,are translation equivalents a feature which indicates a common origin for the term "maize".
As a result on semantic grounds we can make a formal comparison of the Mande k and Mayan k' because of their filiation. Thusly, there is true equivalence between k'unah and kan which makes them prima facie evidence of a common descent.
.
Again trying to get away from the fact that k'unah means granary in Maya NOT maize, so anything you say about is irrelevant.
for fun Diccionario Maya Cordemex* Merida: Ediciones Cordemex (1980) has the following all of which according to Winters read K-N p. 291 kan serpent ka’an heaven kaa’na’ great grandmother kanah to loan ken to adorn p. 311 kin to wound p. 319 kon to sell p. 335 ko’on you come p.335 k’un bland p.423 k’una temple p.423
It’s ridiculous to claim that these words are all the same. Can you say “the serpent wounded great grandmother in the temple” by saying K-N K-N K-N K-N? If the vowel changes the meaning its transcription is relevant.
Similarly if the glottal stop changes the meaning then its transcription is relevant to quote Winters’ own quote of John Montgomery.
quote:Remember that in Yucatec, as far as pronunciation goes, the only difference between some words, such as kaax (a chicken) and k’aax (jungle) is the way you say the glottalized sound. This may not be a problem, since you are much more likely to refer to fried chicken (kaax tsabil) than to talk about felling some jungle (luubsik k’aax), but it could be confusing if you are trying to say k beetik (or, we do) instead of k’abeetik (it is very necessary to...). Vowels with an apostrophe following them indicate a glottal stop, such as when a person quickly says "oh oh," though the actual stoppage may seem barely noticeable, and may, at other times, be better described as a glottal pause. At the end of a word you cut the vowel in two by shutting it off with your windpipe. In any word of more than one syllable, the stop will tend to emphasize the preceding portion of the word. For example, waye’ (here) pronounced wa-YEAH, though with the glottal stop it is more like wa-YE, because you must cut it short.
You can spin, you can spam, you can whirl but the Maya word for "maize" in proto-Maya is *ii(glottal stop)m. which ends up being i(glottal stop)m in most Mayan languages.
Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl: Irrelevant spam to distract from the basic fact that k(glottal stop) in Maya means "granary" and NOT maize.
Yet he list the term K'unah as a name for maize.
In Yucatec we also have kan nal 'maize' which corresponds to Mande Kan; and Yucatec Co, which is analogous to Mande kaPosts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
In Malinke-Bambara the word Ka and Kan means 'serpent, upon high,and sky'. In Yucatec we find that can/kan and caan/kaan means ' serpent and heaven'. The fact that both languages share the same homophonic words , point to a formerly intimate contact between the speakers of Mayan and Mande languages in ancient times.
Montellano mentions that in the Diccionario Maya Cordemex* Merida: Ediciones Cordemex (1980) we have the following
kan serpent
ka’an heaven
These terms correspond to Mande terms kan sky and kan serpent.
It is obvious the Mande and Mayan terms for sky and serpent share the same phonetic construction K-N .
There are many other shared Mayan and Mande terms. The Mande terms I will compare are taken from Delafosse, Maurice.(1929). *La Langue Mandingue et ses Dialectes (Malinke, Bambara, Dioula)*. Vol 1. Intro. Grammaire, Lexique Francais Mandingue).Paris: Librarie. Orientaliste Paul Geuthner
Often we find that Mande words beginning with /s/ , appear as /c/ ,/x/ or /k/ in the Mayan languages. For example, Malinke Bambara, the word sa means 'sell, to buy and market'. This is related to Mayan con 'to sell', and can 'serpent'. In Quiche we have ka:x 'sky' which corresponds to Mande sa / ka 'sky'. In Quiche many words beginning with /ch/ correspond to words they borrowed from the Malinke-Bambara languages possessing an initial /k/, e.g.,
It is also interesting to note that many Quiche words beginning with /x/ which is pronounced 'sh', correspond to words borrowed from Malinke-Bambara with an initial /s/ e.g.,
Other loan words in Quiche from Malinke-Bambara include:
Quiche Malinke-Bambara saq'e daytime,sunlight ……………sa 'heaven, sky' k'i many………………………………….. kika ja lineage, family……………………. ga, gba ja water…………………………………….. ji q'aq fire ……………………………………ga-ndi palo lake, sea………………………….. ba, b'la k'oto to carve, cut………………… ka k':um squash …………………………kula, kura Ba father………………………………. fa Ba lord ………………………………….Ba 'great' (Person) ka 'land,earth'………………………… ka 'suffix joined to names of lands,etc. naal parent,……………………………….. mother na cah earth,…………………………………….. land ka (see above) balam jaguar/tiger…………………………. balan 'leopard worship'
xuku? Boat…………………………………………, canoe kulu k'o:x mask……………………………………………. ku
The loan words in Quiche from Malinke-Bambara show the following patterns a------->a c------->s o------->u c------->k u------->a z------->s x ---------s k------->k x--------- k p------->f q------->k ch------>k
Below we compared Yucatec and Malinke-Bambara terms. I have placed the page number where each Mayan term can be found in Maurice Swadesh, Critina Alvarez and Juan R. Bastarrachea's, "Diccionario de Elementos del Maya Yucatec Colonial" (Mexico: Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico Centro de Estudios Mayas, 1970). The Malinke-Bambara terms come from Delafosse, Maurice.(1929). *La Langue Mandingue et ses Dialectes (Malinke, Bambara, Dioula)*. Vol 1. Intro. Grammaire, Lexique Francais Mandingue).Paris: Librarie. Orientaliste Paul Geuthner.
Phonetic correspondences exists between the Malinke-Bambara and Yucatec. There is full agreement between k, m,n, and t. There is also assimilation of c to k, z to s.
Yucatec Malinke Bambara
z s Zuu, 'joined,unite su,' shape p.95 Zul 'to wet' su, 'precipitation p.95 Zou, 'to entagle' su, 'be i mixture' p.95 Zay, 'assemble' se, 'join' p.94
c k Earth cab ka p.15 Serpent can kan p.18 Rock chhix kaba To cause cal ku Sky caan ka p.15, p.38 Village cah ka 'suffix joined to names of towns p.15 Maize co 'grain of maize' ka p.40
k k Sun kin k'le p.58 Buckle kal koli p.57 To kill kim ki Sky kan kan God, sacre ku ku, ko p.60
t t Man ta' tye p.79 Come tal ta p.79 To cover too tu Law toh tu Truth toh tu, 'fact, real' p.81 Forest te tu Male ton,'male sexual organ' tye, khon p.81 Saliva tub tu p.82
b b Went,gone bin bi p.36 Water bak ba Water ha a p.15 Lord ba ba Arrows been bine Balan 'jaguar'/tiger balan 'leopard worship' p.17
n n Mother na' na p.66 House nu nu House na nu p.66 Nose ni nu p.16
p p To be pe pe To break pa'a pe p.71
An examination of Mayan and Mande homophones also indicates striking similarity. There is a connection between Malinke- Bambara and Yucatec homonyms for 'high, sky and serpent'.
In Malinke-Bambara the word Ka and Kan means 'serpent, upon high,and sky'. In Yucatec we find that can/kan and caan/kaan means ' serpent and heaven'. The fact that both languages share the same homophonic words , point to a formerly intimate contact between the speakers of Mayan and Mande languages in ancient times.
Often we find that some borrowed Mande words beginning with /s/ , through nativization appear as /c/ in the Mayan languages. For example, word the Malinke-Bambara word sa means 'sell, to buy and market'. This is related to Mayan con 'to sell', and can 'serpent'. We also have other examples
Mayan Malinke-Bambara [list] Can serpent sa Con to sell sa, san Caan heaven, sky sa Cah 'small village' so 'village, home'
The copying of Mande /s/ words into Mayan lexicons as /c/ words are probably the result of phonological interference of Mayan /c/, which influenced how Malinke-Bambara words were lexicalized by biligual Yucatec speakers. Interference occurs when speakers carry features from their first language over into a second language. Thus, we have Yucatec con 'to sell', and Malinke-Bambara san 'to sell. Many of the Mayan sites were first settled by the Olmec.
This is supported by the fact that the Mayan inscriptions from Palenque claim that the first ruler of this city was the Olmec leader U-Kix-chan. In addition, some Mayan kings were styled Kuk according to Mary Miller and Karl Taube,in "The Gods and symbols of ancient Mexico and Maya, said this term was also used in the Olmec inscriptions, like those from Tuxtla, to denote the local ruler of many Olmec sites. It was probably during this period of contact that the Maya began to copy Mande terms and incorporate them in their lexicon. It is time that we stop the name calling and work together to explain to the world the African presence in ancient America.
Many of these loan words are from the basic vocabulary. They support the hypothesis that in ancient times Mayan speakers lived in intimate contact with the Mande speaking Olmec people. Moreover this is further confirmation of Leo Wiener's theory in Africa and the Discovery of America that the religion and culture of the Meso-Americans was influenced by Mande speaking people from West Africa.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
The Olmec probably took Maize back to the Mande in Africa. As a result,the Mande and Maya share the same terms for Maize.
So the Olmec traveled to Africa and carried maize with them, to give to the Mande?
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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This does not contain the word maize "maize" anywhere.
The standard Yukatek Maya Diccionario Cordemex cited above does not contain the words kan naL anywhere . In any case your methodology would make this K-N-N-L not K-N. P. 297 0f the cordemex has the following: KAN MOK KAN NOH OL (AH) KANO'B KAN PACH You can see that kan nal does not occur between between K-H and K-P
The sound and letter /c/ does not exist in Maya-- so you just made that up.
Still spam to get away from the fact that to distract from the basic fact that k(glottal stop)n in Maya means "granary" and NOT maizePosts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: In Malinke-Bambara the word Ka and Kan means 'serpent, upon high,and sky'. In Yucatec we find that can/kan and caan/kaan means ' serpent and heaven'. The fact that both languages share the same homophonic words , point to a formerly intimate contact between the speakers of Mayan and Mande languages in ancient times.
Montellano mentions that in the Diccionario Maya Cordemex* Merida: Ediciones Cordemex (1980) we have the following
kan serpent
ka’an heaven
These terms correspond to Mande terms kan sky and kan serpent.
It is obvious the Mande and Mayan terms for sky and serpent share the same phonetic construction K-N .
There are many other shared Mayan and Mande terms. The Mande terms I will compare are taken from Delafosse, Maurice.(1929). *La Langue Mandingue et ses Dialectes (Malinke, Bambara, Dioula)*. Vol 1. Intro. Grammaire, Lexique Francais Mandingue).Paris: Librarie. Orientaliste Paul Geuthner
Often we find that Mande words beginning with /s/ , appear as /c/ ,/x/ or /k/ in the Mayan languages. For example, Malinke Bambara, the word sa means 'sell, to buy and market'. This is related to Mayan con 'to sell', and can 'serpent'. In Quiche we have ka:x 'sky' which corresponds to Mande sa / ka 'sky'. In Quiche many words beginning with /ch/ correspond to words they borrowed from the Malinke-Bambara languages possessing an initial /k/, e.g.,
It is also interesting to note that many Quiche words beginning with /x/ which is pronounced 'sh', correspond to words borrowed from Malinke-Bambara with an initial /s/ e.g.,
Other loan words in Quiche from Malinke-Bambara include:
Quiche Malinke-Bambara saq'e daytime,sunlight ……………sa 'heaven, sky' k'i many………………………………….. kika ja lineage, family……………………. ga, gba ja water…………………………………….. ji q'aq fire ……………………………………ga-ndi palo lake, sea………………………….. ba, b'la k'oto to carve, cut………………… ka k':um squash …………………………kula, kura Ba father………………………………. fa Ba lord ………………………………….Ba 'great' (Person) ka 'land,earth'………………………… ka 'suffix joined to names of lands,etc. naal parent,……………………………….. mother na cah earth,…………………………………….. land ka (see above) balam jaguar/tiger…………………………. balan 'leopard worship'
xuku? Boat…………………………………………, canoe kulu k'o:x mask……………………………………………. ku
The loan words in Quiche from Malinke-Bambara show the following patterns a------->a c------->s o------->u c------->k u------->a z------->s x ---------s k------->k x--------- k p------->f q------->k ch------>k
Below we compared Yucatec and Malinke-Bambara terms. I have placed the page number where each Mayan term can be found in Maurice Swadesh, Critina Alvarez and Juan R. Bastarrachea's, "Diccionario de Elementos del Maya Yucatec Colonial" (Mexico: Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico Centro de Estudios Mayas, 1970). The Malinke-Bambara terms come from Delafosse, Maurice.(1929). *La Langue Mandingue et ses Dialectes (Malinke, Bambara, Dioula)*. Vol 1. Intro. Grammaire, Lexique Francais Mandingue).Paris: Librarie. Orientaliste Paul Geuthner.
Phonetic correspondences exists between the Malinke-Bambara and Yucatec. There is full agreement between k, m,n, and t. There is also assimilation of c to k, z to s.
Yucatec Malinke Bambara
z s Zuu, 'joined,unite su,' shape p.95 Zul 'to wet' su, 'precipitation p.95 Zou, 'to entagle' su, 'be i mixture' p.95 Zay, 'assemble' se, 'join' p.94
c k Earth cab ka p.15 Serpent can kan p.18 Rock chhix kaba To cause cal ku Sky caan ka p.15, p.38 Village cah ka 'suffix joined to names of towns p.15 Maize co 'grain of maize' ka p.40
k k Sun kin k'le p.58 Buckle kal koli p.57 To kill kim ki Sky kan kan God, sacre ku ku, ko p.60
t t Man ta' tye p.79 Come tal ta p.79 To cover too tu Law toh tu Truth toh tu, 'fact, real' p.81 Forest te tu Male ton,'male sexual organ' tye, khon p.81 Saliva tub tu p.82
b b Went,gone bin bi p.36 Water bak ba Water ha a p.15 Lord ba ba Arrows been bine Balan 'jaguar'/tiger balan 'leopard worship' p.17
n n Mother na' na p.66 House nu nu House na nu p.66 Nose ni nu p.16
p p To be pe pe To break pa'a pe p.71
An examination of Mayan and Mande homophones also indicates striking similarity. There is a connection between Malinke- Bambara and Yucatec homonyms for 'high, sky and serpent'.
In Malinke-Bambara the word Ka and Kan means 'serpent, upon high,and sky'. In Yucatec we find that can/kan and caan/kaan means ' serpent and heaven'. The fact that both languages share the same homophonic words , point to a formerly intimate contact between the speakers of Mayan and Mande languages in ancient times.
Often we find that some borrowed Mande words beginning with /s/ , through nativization appear as /c/ in the Mayan languages. For example, word the Malinke-Bambara word sa means 'sell, to buy and market'. This is related to Mayan con 'to sell', and can 'serpent'. We also have other examples
Mayan Malinke-Bambara [list] Can serpent sa Con to sell sa, san Caan heaven, sky sa Cah 'small village' so 'village, home'
The copying of Mande /s/ words into Mayan lexicons as /c/ words are probably the result of phonological interference of Mayan /c/, which influenced how Malinke-Bambara words were lexicalized by biligual Yucatec speakers. Interference occurs when speakers carry features from their first language over into a second language. Thus, we have Yucatec con 'to sell', and Malinke-Bambara san 'to sell. Many of the Mayan sites were first settled by the Olmec.
This is supported by the fact that the Mayan inscriptions from Palenque claim that the first ruler of this city was the Olmec leader U-Kix-chan. In addition, some Mayan kings were styled Kuk according to Mary Miller and Karl Taube,in "The Gods and symbols of ancient Mexico and Maya, said this term was also used in the Olmec inscriptions, like those from Tuxtla, to denote the local ruler of many Olmec sites. It was probably during this period of contact that the Maya began to copy Mande terms and incorporate them in their lexicon. It is time that we stop the name calling and work together to explain to the world the African presence in ancient America.
Many of these loan words are from the basic vocabulary. They support the hypothesis that in ancient times Mayan speakers lived in intimate contact with the Mande speaking Olmec people. Moreover this is further confirmation of Leo Wiener's theory in Africa and the Discovery of America that the religion and culture of the Meso-Americans was influenced by Mande speaking people from West Africa.
Irrelevant spam to distract from the basic fact that k(glottal stop) in Maya means "granary" and NOT maize.Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: The Olmec probably took Maize back to the Mande in Africa. As a result,the Mande and Maya share the same terms for Maize.
So the Olmec traveled to Africa and carried maize with them, to give to the Mande?
No. There was no maize in Africa till after the discovery of America. Further, we haven't discussed how difficult the voyage from Africa to the New World was 1200 BC-- the return voyage would be much more difficult.
Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: The Olmec probably took Maize back to the Mande in Africa. As a result,the Mande and Maya share the same terms for Maize.
So the Olmec traveled to Africa and carried maize with them, to give to the Mande?
No. There was no maize in Africa till after the discovery of America. Further, we haven't discussed how difficult the voyage from Africa to the New World was 1200 BC-- the return voyage would be much more difficult.
Post a reference that names the European that took maize to the Mande and the date they deposited it in West Africa.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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This does not contain the word maize "maize" anywhere.
The standard Yukatek Maya Diccionario Cordemex cited above does not contain the words kan naL anywhere . In any case your methodology would make this K-N-N-L not K-N. P. 297 0f the cordemex has the following: KAN MOK KAN NOH OL (AH) KANO'B KAN PACH You can see that kan nal does not occur between between K-H and K-P
The sound and letter /c/ does not exist in Maya-- so you just made that up.
Still spam to get away from the fact that to distract from the basic fact that k(glottal stop)n in Maya means "granary" and NOT maize
I did not make up anything. I provide the page where co, is found in the Yucatec dictionary.
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: The Olmec probably took Maize back to the Mande in Africa. As a result,the Mande and Maya share the same terms for Maize.
So the Olmec traveled to Africa and carried maize with them, to give to the Mande?
Yea. That is the only way we can explain the presence of maize in Africa before the arrival of Europeans, since maize originated in MesoAmerica.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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I did not make up anything. I provide the page where co, is found in the Yucatec dictionary.
Winters’ source for Maya is: Swadesh, M., Alvarez and Bastarrachea J. R. 1970 "Diccionario de Elementos del Maya Yucateco Colonial" Mexico: UNAM. This is a very deficient source as the book says on p. 10
quote: In this work we have tries to assemble all the elements of Classical Maya found scattered in in those documents that, published after the conquest, preserved the Yucatec Maya language. With these elements we assembled a dictionary, not of words, but of word elements, although often an element can be a word. The [u]Diccionario de elementos [/u] offers the roots and prefixes and suffixes, that are the bases of words
Thus, many of the supposed Maya words that Winters cites are not words but prefixes or suffixes. Going forward on p. 38 the start of the “C” section we clearly see C/k/ which in linguistics means that the sound of “C” is “K” so as any source will tell you there is no /c/ sibilant such as “cedar” “cycle” etc.
Further on p. 40 “co” means 1) tooth, 2) maize kernel (not maize) and 3) bird beak
All this was explained to Winters in 1998, but as usual totally ignored.
All this as usual to divert attention from the basic fact that k(glottal stop) in Maya means "granary" and NOT maize.Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007
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I did not make up anything. I provide the page where co, is found in the Yucatec dictionary.
Winters’ source for Maya is: Swadesh, M., Alvarez and Bastarrachea J. R. 1970 "Diccionario de Elementos del Maya Yucateco Colonial" Mexico: UNAM. This is a very deficient source as the book says on p. 10
quote: In this work we have tries to assemble all the elements of Classical Maya found scattered in in those documents that, published after the conquest, preserved the Yucatec Maya language. With these elements we assembled a dictionary, not of words, but of word elements, although often an element can be a word. The [u]Diccionario de elementos [/u] offers the roots and prefixes and suffixes, that are the bases of words
Thus, many of the supposed Maya words that Winters cites are not words but prefixes or suffixes. Going forward on p. 38 the start of the “C” section we clearly see C/k/ which in linguistics means that the sound of “C” is “K” so as any source will tell you there is no /c/ sibilant such as “cedar” “cycle” etc.
Further on p. 40 “co” means 1) tooth, 2) maize kernel (not maize) and 3) bird beak
All this was explained to Winters in 1998, but as usual totally ignored.
All this as usual to divert attention from the basic fact that k(glottal stop) in Maya means "granary" and NOT maize.
LOL. a maize kernel, is edible part of maize, i.e., maize. Just like a kernel of corn is the edible part of corn.
I did not make up anything. I provide the page where co, is found in the Yucatec dictionary.
Winters’ source for Maya is: Swadesh, M., Alvarez and Bastarrachea J. R. 1970 "Diccionario de Elementos del Maya Yucateco Colonial" Mexico: UNAM. This is a very deficient source as the book says on p. 10
quote: In this work we have tries to assemble all the elements of Classical Maya found scattered in in those documents that, published after the conquest, preserved the Yucatec Maya language. With these elements we assembled a dictionary, not of words, but of word elements, although often an element can be a word. The [u]Diccionario de elementos [/u] offers the roots and prefixes and suffixes, that are the bases of words
Thus, many of the supposed Maya words that Winters cites are not words but prefixes or suffixes. Going forward on p. 38 the start of the “C” section we clearly see C/k/ which in linguistics means that the sound of “C” is “K” so as any source will tell you there is no /c/ sibilant such as “cedar” “cycle” etc.
Further on p. 40 “co” means 1) tooth, 2) maize kernel (not maize) and 3) bird beak
All this was explained to Winters in 1998, but as usual totally ignored.
All this as usual to divert attention from the basic fact that k(glottal stop) in Maya means "granary" and NOT maize.
LOL. a maize kernel, is edible part of maize, i.e., maize. Just like a kernel of corn is the edible part of corn.
Montellano, You great deceiver you.
.
When Winters starts calling you a liar and deceiver you know he is running out of defenses. All this as usual to divert attention from the basic fact that k(glottal stop) in Maya means "granary" and NOT maize. [/qb
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