quote:Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova: Originally posted by Doug M:
quote: All of these are mostly leftist liberal oriented agendas that primarily came to dominate academia since the 90s. Whereas in the 60s and 70s there was the black power movement and then in the 80s and 90s it was the Afrocentric movement.
All of the founders of BLM were trained in grassroots organizing by various leftist groups such as SOUL, The School of Unity and Liberation: [1996]
So you are saying that these newer movements are not independent real black grass roots but manipulated catspaws of the white left? How would you compare with 1990s movements like the Million Man March?
Van Vechten was known for his parties, as they were among the few venues where Black and white New Yorkers freely intermingled on an equal basis. Notable gay and lesbian attendees included Langston Hughes, Countee Cullen, Ethel Waters, Somerset Maugham, Salvador Dalí, and Bessie Smith. Van Vechten’s papers, which record many aspects of gay life in New York, especially in Harlem, are housed at Yale University.
Do you think van Vetchen had his own agenda, including incorporating the Black intelligentsia at the time into parts of it?
f course the whole idea of the Harlem Renaissance was to promote the arts as the "safe way" for blacks to channel their energies actually openly going against the status quo. And that was the purpose of it as supported by Du Bois and other intelligentsia and the NAACP.
But what would have been the alternative at the time for Black Arts? I mean the Booker Teeists were not into a liberalist art thing. Would an alternative have been the great grassroots negro arts like blues, ragtime, early jazz plus other arts not beholden to white lefty sponsorship?
How would the above compare to the Black Arts Movement of the 1960s led by folk such as Baraka?
they create these platforms within academia and use them to push agendas and talking points that are picked up by corporations as "progressive". Of course left out of all of this are the true black voices pushing their own agendas free from leftist influence.
If BLM is used as an example, could it be said that a white leftist controlling hand is at work, using black grievances to garner huge amounts of funds for that agenda, but with precious little recirculating to the masses at street level? This seems to be the basic complaint of Michael Brown Sr: all this money raised in the name of these black families but the manipulators dominating the media space doing little tangible, except talk, for the people who are suffering most?
true black voices pushing their own agendas free from leftist influence.
In the 1990s, Farrakhan or music performers like the hip hoppers (NWA, Public Eenmy, the Five-Percenters ) etc seem to have merged as a force in the black community that attracted loads of critical commentary by the "mainstream" media and other gatekeepers. The Farrakhan, NWA era of course (if it can be called such) has faded, but were they authentically grassroots and what contemporary successors do you see emerging?
The left has always dominated the funding and organizing of black anti-racist activities going all the way back to the underground railroad and John Brown. But at various times and eras the underlying agendas behind this leftist influence were different. The "Afrocentric" and "X" (rediscovery of Malcolm X) movements of the late 80s and early 90s were primarily grass roots as a result of a general "awakening" among the black youth. This is partly the result of these kids or "gen x" being the first generation born post civil rights. It is also the result of larger numbers of black youth going to universities where there was still a residual legacy of the black power movement of the 70s where the elements of revolutionary black studies were pushed. Along with that, you had the great teachers like Dr Clarke, Dr Ben and all the other great scholars who often lectured and promoted their work on college campuses. Culturally this was the era of "conscious" hip hop among the black youth which was definitely organic and grass roots. The Nation Of Islam became popular because they had a network across the country and many black youth were attracted to them, partly because of Malcolm X, but also because they had speakers such as Farrakhan and Khalid Muhammad. But they simply piggy backed on the mentality that was popular at the time. All of these things came together to create a moment in time that was unique. As a result many campuses across the country were the scene of protests of various sorts against racism in the curriculum and so forth.
So many of these liberal movements in academia since then were an attempt to get ahead of this and put in place a framework where the energies and attention of the black youth could be misdirected towards these alternate agendas. In fact it has always been the focus of the right and the left to focus their efforts on indoctrinating the educated and "best and brightest" of the black youth in order to avoid new leaders rising to promote a truly black agenda. This "threat" of a true black grassroots organization pushing a black agenda goes all the way back to Marcus Garvey. The New Negro Movement, Negro Arts Movement or Harlem Renaissance was one of the first major efforts to divert black people away from Marcus Garvey and any kind of black nationalism or black agenda. And this is where Van Vechten and these other folks come into play as the money that financed these groups.
Similarly the NAACP was not even a black organization and primarily was a front group for white interests (along with many others). And they were staunchly against Garvey's influence on black society. Similarly Booker T Washington was also on the payroll of white industrialists which again was never going in the direction of black nationalism but he had died before the destruction of black wall street which was something both he and Dubois touted as the "future" of integration. It is no coincidence that the rise of the Harlem Renaissance took place in the time period following the destruction of Tulsa and other black towns across the Nation. And if anything should have sounded the death knell for integrationist approaches it should have been that. But there is hardly any evidence of any effort by any of the black intelligentsia to address the impact of the destruction of Black Wall Street and thus it shows that their job was to redirect black energies away from anything that could be a threat to the system. Because if the NAACP was for the purpose of defending the rights of black people they should have been at the forefront in getting compensation and justice for the victims of the Tulsa Massacre but they weren't. In fact they were mostly dead silent about it and other such atrocities. In fact I would say that between the 1920s and 1960s most of the movements against racism were run by the left or the right in various forms including Communist groups. The NAACP, OIC and other similar groups were funded and created by white industrialists and liberals to create a "safe" negro amenable to integration (but not black nationalism and independence). In education, Booker T. Washington was the spokesman for the white industrialists who backed and created the various historically "black" universities to train "safe" black folks (they didn't even have black studies at these schools). The Communists were heavily involved in the various labor movements in the South where blacks at the time were the face of migrant labor in America (as seen in "Harvest of Shame" from the 1960s). And of course there was also the influence of white Christian missionary organizations between and within all of these groups which also promoted a "safe" vision integration and so forth. The Civil Rights movement itself is a good example of this as it was heavily influenced by the Highlander Folk School which was basically interested in promoting "non violent" struggle and to promote consumer rights as a form of "civil rights" (sit ins, bus boycotts, etc), but never black nationalism or economic independence. The key point here is that these "safe" black folks promote the idea that you have to prove that you are "worthy" of not being treated badly, as if somehow your mistreatment is justified and deserved, which is a complete contradiction in terms. It is like saying I need to show the thief that took my wallet why I deserve to have my wallet back, as if they are ever going to give it back no matter how you attempt to 'prove' your worth. It is idiotic and insane but that is what you get out of it.
So as far as sexuality goes, Van Vechten is just an example of how the system has always had its way with black flesh and thus exploited it. Keep in mind that much of the black Renaissance was simply peddling black flesh to rich whites, including in the nightclubs and parlors which often featured black female dancers in skimpy costumes. This wasn't empowering black people in any way shape or form, yet to hear it told today this was "progress" and we should be "proud" of this.
There have always been black gay activists included in the anti-racist movements in the past but at no time did they put sexuality ahead of racial injustice. But again, a lot of this was still associated with white agendas. Bayard Rustin was openly gay and he was one of the notable figures in the Civil Rights movement, albeit he was deliberately not given full recognition because they felt his sexuality was a distraction from the goals and purposes of the movement. But at the end of the day the civil rights movement was more of an integrationist/consumer rights movement.
Today things are too fragmented and I can't say there is any specific grassroots movement that exists that is serious.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The "Afrocentric" and "X" (rediscovery of Malcolm X) movements of the late 80s and early 90s were primarily grass roots as a result of a general "awakening" among the black youth...
Along with that, you had the great teachers like Dr Clarke, Dr Ben and all the other great scholars who often lectured and promoted their work on college campuses. Culturally this was the era of "conscious" hip hop among the black youth which was definitely organic and grass roots. The Nation Of Islam became popular because they had a network across the country and many black youth were attracted to them, partly because of Malcolm X, but also because they had speakers such as Farrakhan and Khalid Muhammad. But they simply piggy backed on the mentality that was popular at the time. All of these things came together to create a moment in time that was unique. As a result many campuses across the country were the scene of protests of various sorts against racism in the curriculum and so forth.
Khalid Muhammad and the New Black Panther Party were the personification of this era, mainly a New York movement
quote: Khalid Muhammad
"Well, I can't be an anti-Semite, in the sense that they say, because they're not the Semites. But let's leave that to the side, whatever the hell they say they are, I'm anti-[sic]. If you say you're a Semite--even though I know goddamn well you're not a Semite, if you just say you're one-I'm against you. If you say you're white, goddammit I'm against you. If you're a Jew, I'm against you. Whatever the hell you want to call yourself, I'm against you. Whatever the hell you want to call yourself."
"Notice the crackers here at Cal Poly pretending to be righteous. Look at them as they walk around San Luis Obispo, arrogant peckerwoods. Stop going on college campuses and developing alliances with the white Zionists, and dicing your own people."
"Don't let no hooked-nose, bagel-eating, lox-eating, perpetrating-a-fraud so-called Jew who just crawled out of the ghettoes of Europe just a few days ago..."
"The white man is not only practicing racism and Zionism and with the prostitution ring, the so-called Jew man with the Jew woman all over the world to make a few dollars. He is also practicing sexism. He's a racist, he's a Zionist, a sexist, and imperialist. He's a no good bastard. He's not a devil, the white man is the Devil."
“I called them [Jews] bloodsuckers. I'm not going to change that. Our lessons talk about the bloodsuckers of the poor in the supreme wisdom of the Nation of Islam. It's that old no-good Jew, that old imposter Jew, that old hooked-nose, bagel-eating, lox-eating, Johnny-come-lately perpetrating a fraud, just crawled out of the caves and hills of Europe, so-called damn Jew…and I feel everything I'm saying up here is kosher. ”
“Now it is time to stand up and fight back…There are no good crackers, and if you find one, kill him before he changes.”
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Can't say who'll find Doc Ben's book helpful, har ih tis anyway.
In the 70s at universities ASAs & BSUs (where interested) were joined by Marxist students who, frankly, had more experience organizing effective political-social activities and being white had access to places and things outside black inclusion.
Where our interests were in common, we were allies. When a mutual goal was accomplished we parted ways. So yes at times they 'dominated' but never were their overall objectives any goal of ours.
Only one Wolof in our ASA was actually Marxist, not just spouting bits and pieces of "Marxist" ideologyhere and there for resounding audiences.
Thanks to Rastafari the old forgotten African socio-political systems weren't entirely pushed aside for models not really based on or accounting for black peoples needs and objectives. Where 'They' were pushing Marxist/Socialist systems and narratives 'We' were about Social Living as Bunny Wailer sang it.
The last of the outright Marxist agenda using 'blk mvmnt' as vanguard was/is the All Afrikan Peoples Revolutionary Party. I knew one of them who simultaneously said he believed H.I.M Haile Sellasie was God and he believed Haile Sellasie was a running dog for imperialism. Go figure when distancing from people/orgs is vital.
Personally, limiting labels like leftist or rightist applied to blk people living, what at the time was considered, an overall non-movement driven, way of life constructive to achieving and maintaining positive 'community' goals and inter- connection nationwide. If any label even comes close to applying it'd be the philosophic one called holistic.
Earlier in life there were the rising poets: Nikki Giovani Gil Scot-Heron The Last Poets Watts Prophets Bama Wanda Robinson Melvin van Peebles etc.
All were effectively reaching the 'Grassroots'. None were as effective on the consciousness of all humanity than halfAfrican halfEuropean b. Robert Nesta Marley -- d. Berhane Selassie.
And then along came Ntozake Shange's with for colored girls who have considered suicide / when the rainbow is enuf
I bought it thinking it inline with the above. But I couldn't understand it and back in those days very few had any idea what 'the rainbow' stood for, which was the indicator of gayness. Somewhere along the line Nikki Giovanni appeared to have glided toward 'the rainbow'.
The last thing I remember that dropped from the blk holistic groove was from Haki Madhubuti. Unlike danceable message spreading Reggae he stayed in the Innovator Jazz vein. Next decade came the conscious rappers to carry the flame in popular and danceable lanes continued by some HipHop artists to this day.
OK, enough I guess. Just to be aware the so-called movement was a wheel of countless spokes.
Nowhere at no time in no place was there any one solidified ideology group, faction, or person(ality) dominating anything.
posted
Would you say they were more authentic "grassroots" in their era than BLM in the current era? Or are they variants emerging depending on time and place?
Re Marley some say he was very popular with whites who liked him more for the party and marijuana vibe than his social message, plus his half-white looks and background also added to it, compared to say the dusky Peter Tosh.
How many of the white affluent could understand "Redemption Song" for example? But Marley has been used for a number of agendas, like gay agendas, where he is contrasted favorably against those darker Negroes that are negative towards homosexuals. I would agree that the tolerance of "One Love" is more peaceful than Buju Banton's "Boom Bye", but Banton and Shabba Ranks followers both claim they are more "roots" than the hippie-dippie, woke-toke image of a Marley co-opted by white people. Others argue that while Marley would not condone the type of violence and negativity towards gays as seen in Buja, Shabba, Beanie and other dance-hallers, this does not mean he would be leaping on board any gay rainbow bandwagon, given his upbringing in and love of traditional Jamaican culture.
The book above discusses some of these items though the issue is present on the general web. These debates about representation track somewhat with Doug's point about co-optation.
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"Leftist" implies Marxism, Maoism, Socialism or communism but the NOI aint that
quote:
May 21, 2016 – Benton Convention Center, Winston Salem, NC
The summit’s theme, “Capitalism … the only true pathway to freedom” brought together experts in networking and business investment, business owners and operators, investment and tax strategists and a plethora of up and coming male and female Black entrepreneurs.
I think Doug is referring more to social liberalism and "Social Justice" for all "rights" groups and he thinks any alliance between black rights groups and any other rights group weakens black rights or black power movements, be it women's rights, gay rights, Hispanic rights, etc
The primary example of a group not allied to other rights groups is as he pointed out is the Nation of Islam. Their primary agenda is racial separation and to be allocated sovereign territory, not socialist he will probably be explaining what he means shortly in his own words
The Black Panther Party was open to collaborating or in sympathy with socialist revolutionary movements that transcended race bit maybe he thinks they were more compromised for this than the NOI
Many BLM protests had many white people with them chanting "Black Lives Matter" but I am not sure to what extent they were/are inside the organizing. The gay element is not prominent at protests (but some individuals are at some). As we have seen the BLM has given a lot of money they collected from donors to fund black gay organizations but with an emphasis on transgenders and women led organizations. Somebody might say that is a white influence. However there are blacks transgenders out there and the founders of the organization are lesbians. I think they just did what they wanted to do, they were against police brutality but also wanted to help black run LGBTQ groups on the low. The women who started it were pretty clever marketers. I don't see them as dupes. The Nation of Islam is male dominated. They are not into that
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
@ Zar
On the short: it's a different millenium so from my bridge across both ... I wouldn't compare the two.
Will say, once organization advances to Inc or LLC level then by definition it is no longer grassroots no matter how much they smoke.
I wanted to show where Queer Feminism first began piggybacking the full spectrum Black struggle. As someone said later it was a decades long plan at work. 47 yrs later we see its full fruition and POWER. A good thing had it remained true to the game of justice for matyrs of police brutality and ALL BLACK LIVES. I mean look at the immense social ripple globally indisputably due to BLM the incorporated movement. That's the POWER of the unbridled BLACK FEMALE totally unshackled by "your position is prone" sexist counter revolutionary baby macho charisma males.
Not to derail the thread open a thread to discuss your reply some more on those issues own light, if you wanna. I'd like to expand.
posted
Wasn't planning on going in-depth into black feminism area which is a detailed subject all by itself, with a lot of references to look up, and only 1 or 2 peeps might show up to add more content and value. Tack on Queer feminism and its really a big field. Was only relying so far on some movie links associated with Black Panther and feminism. Big topic, more work. Still for what its worth I think it is interesting how female dominated BLM actually got its movement off the ground and going strong. Would such have happened in the late 2010s under male leadership? I think you can probably expand on it here some and get more commentary- seems a legit tie-in.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Can't say who'll find Doc Ben's book helpful, har ih tis anyway.
In the 70s at universities ASAs & BSUs (where interested) were joined by Marxist students who, frankly, had more experience organizing effective political-social activities and being white had access to places and things outside black inclusion.
Where our interests were in common, we were allies. When a mutual goal was accomplished we parted ways. So yes at times they 'dominated' but never were their overall objectives any goal of ours.
Only one Wolof in our ASA was actually Marxist, not just spouting bits and pieces of "Marxist" ideologyhere and there for resounding audiences.
Thanks to Rastafari the old forgotten African socio-political systems weren't entirely pushed aside for models not really based on or accounting for black peoples needs and objectives. Where 'They' were pushing Marxist/Socialist systems and narratives 'We' were about Social Living as Bunny Wailer sang it.
The last of the outright Marxist agenda using 'blk mvmnt' as vanguard was/is the All Afrikan Peoples Revolutionary Party. I knew one of them who simultaneously said he believed H.I.M Haile Sellasie was God and he believed Haile Sellasie was a running dog for imperialism. Go figure when distancing from people/orgs is vital.
Ah but here's something that may give Doug pause. Up above you say the All African People's Revolutionary Party was of Marxist/socialist flavor. Would this make them, and Stokley, leader of the Party, people under white leftist control, given Doug'a argument that communist or leftist influence has run or heavily influenced most black struggle organizations?
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Ah but here's something that may give Doug pause. Up above you say the All African People's Revolutionary Party was of Marxist/socialist flavor. Would this make them, and Stokley, leader of the Party, people under white leftist control, given Doug'a argument that communist or leftist influence has run or heavily influenced most black struggle organizations? [/qb]
Just to be clear, when I say "grassroots" I am referring to mostly the average every day person who is not particularly educated or even familiar with "international" concepts like Marxism, Socialism and so forth. When someone sees police misconduct on the street and gets outraged that is "grassroots" and does not imply any social/political system of indoctrination outside of a desire to end that oppression. Similarly hip hop in the 70s to 90s was mostly at the grassroots, in playgrounds, house parties and basements and not on the radio or large record companies and mostly about free expression from parties and sing along lyrics to conscious topics and not just "ganstas and thugs". The idea of "leftist" agendas comes into play at the college/academic level among those who would be the intelligentsia or potential "leaders" of such movements. They have time to sit down and analyze struggles of various types and then model a plan of education and indoctrination for the "grassroots" in order to form them into a cohesive social and political force. That is the difference. The 10 point plan of the black panthers is a perfect example, which was used to indoctrinate the "grassroots" youth from the streets and the gangs.
As for BLM, the whole point was to push feminist and non conforming sexual agendas and not to solve police brutality. The fact that you and others are mentioning feminism and queer identity when ostensibly talking about police brutality proves the point. It hasn't solved the problem it claims to want to address but has raised the awareness of the presence of queer folks in the black community which isn't really a goal for "black liberation". I mean in the past couple of years how often have you seen folks twerking or stripping at these BLM protests? The two things have absolutely nothing to do with each other and this is the problem with the intersectionality argument which basically boils down to interracial sex across genders as if that "solves" anything. And this can be seen even in the era of the Harlem renaissance and folks such as Van Vechten. And what happens as a result is an attempt to lump all resistance and opposition to police brutality and other issues into a single "camp" when a lot of folks are not interested in these other agendas and just want to get the problems fixed. For example, this intersectional agenda likes to push queer representation as a "win", but a win for who? Who cares if Superman is black? Who cares if some fictional character is gay or gay and black? How is that helping anything in real life? For example, look at the the TV series the watchmen, where the main black character who survives the Tulsa massacre is a superhero who whose big secret was he was in an interracial gay relationship. And of course his partner was also a superhero and was against using their powers to fight racism. So what the hell does that have to do with anything? The leftists love this but it means nothing to the people on the street in real life and those still fighting for reparations from that massacre.
quote: The characters in James Baldwin’s Another Country are plagued with contradictions. They have contradictory feelings about their race, their gender, their sexuality. There are marked contradictions between the way they feel and the way they act; between what they think they feel, what they truly feel and what they want others to think they feel. These contradictions lead to self-loathing as they struggle, impossibly, to define themselves based on social parameters. They conform to and resent labels such as black, white, heterosexual, homosexual, faithful, unfaithful, victim and victor, trying to reconcile their behavior with “who they are”. In a utopian, private world, “who they are” would be an amorphous concept based on their actions, but in Another Country Baldwin savagely reminds us that we do not live in a utopian, private world. In Baldwin’s reality, we have relatively little control over our own identities. Our lives are conducted in both the private and public sphere and “who we are” is defined by society just as much as by the individual. The relationships in Another Country are complicated and destructive because the characters can not separate their public selves from their private selves. The very private act of sex becomes a stage for their public frustrations to be played out.
posted
due to Fox news some people think "leftist" and "liberal" are the same thing.
leftist= socialist or communist, capitalism must be stopped
liberal = multicultural, less strict about moral behavioral rules imposed by government and religion, supports a capitalist economy with social programs
The right tries to blur the line to imply that if once subscribes to liberal social views such as women's and gay rights that that makes someone a leftist and leftists want a socialist command economy, to end capitalism
"Black Power" was made popular by Kwame Ture aka Stokely Carmichael who was a Pan African leftist as defined by Nkrumah and the A-APRP as The Liberation and Unification of Africa Under Scientific Socialism. Does this mean "liberal"? no
The Nation of Islam are neither leftist nor liberal and they don't use the term "black power". They are racial nationalists
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
@ Zar
No one who lived through 1974 - 1981 and spent any time with Rastafaris and conscious blacks agitating for real change or just living 'the culture' way of life thinks reggae music from entertainers not a part of 12 Tribes or Bobo or such are meaningful to liberation struggle.
In my opinion you focus too much on white acceptance, dominance, and control over black 'institutions'.
For spirituality Buju Banton ranks with Bob but Shabba? Get serious.
Liberation struggle in the USA was waged by people who were naturally bent to mid60's and onward innovator Jazz.That music was and isn't popular so couldn't expand struggle horizons via songstry.
Rastafari 'grounated' Reggae easily breached such a barrier as the genre is both danceable and singable itself perfectly to deliver messages and keep them in mind.
So you see I'm talking positive exploitation of music genre not the just the genre itself. Reggae is as full of 'nonsense' as any other popular music formats.
I haven't scratched the surface and if its to be looked at this thread is not the place for it.
Melvin van Peebles had grassroots appeal on a more non-conscious level with dib and dab at struggle related issues but Black life in general.
Wanda Robinson was in the same vein somewhat, conscious struggle related peeks here and there and very much seen through a woman's eyes.
Shange, with an African name as was being popularized at the time however was just about something else, the Rainbow. The African name was confusing and led to sales that otherwise wouldnta happened. Sales that were enabled by the flourishing of the various poets whether or not featuring African inspired drumming.
Again, this role of musics in the Black Liberation Struggle and its pacification by piggypacking ripoffs is off topic here.
Post #59, 60, 62, 63, 64, & 65, or parts of them, are best served by crosspost to a new thread for handling in and of this sub-topic's own value.
In conclusion, I do not equate greassroots with only what Marxists label lumpen-proletariate. In an essay one is allowed their own definition only when stating so to begin with. Grassroots entails every segment of the population not in tightly organized behind one organization. It's a general broad base of people down with a few shared basic concepts, principles, and practices that make them a truly acephalous 'movement'.
So what's grassroot? Top down 'leadership'? Nah. Bottom up ideology given to perceived 'organizers'? Yah.
No more from me on these in this thread. Carry on.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
@ Zar
No one who lived through 1974 - 1981 and spent any time with Rastafaris and conscious blacks agitating for real change or just living 'culture' ways of life thinks Reggae music from entertainers not a part of Niyabinghi, or Bobo, even 12 Tribes or any other Mansion of Rastafari meaningful to worldwide black liberation struggle.
Prime, even secondary focus isn't about white acceptance, co-option, or control over black 'institutions'. Yes it's an aspect but that's all it is, not the center meat just the sandwich's slice of cheese or really just the lettuce, mayo, or salt. As so via these here Afrikan's Eyes. Seen
For spirituality Buju Banton ranks above Bob but Shabba? In the same breath with Bob? Get righteous! Now Banton? He's a more popular more listenable Prince Far I forward this millennium.
Liberation struggle in the USA was largely waged by people who were naturally bent to mid60's and onward innovator Jazz. That music wasn't and isn't popular, so it couldn't expand struggle horizons via songstry.
Rastafari 'grounated' Reggae easily breached such a barrier as the genre is both danceable and singable itself perfectly matched to grassroot delivery of messages meant to kept in them minds all. From kiddie kid kids to seasoned seniors, from ivory tower intellectuals to the-block-is-the-world everyday people.
So you see I'm talking positive exploitation of music genre not the just the genre itself. Reggae is as full of 'nonsense' as any other popular music formats.
I haven't scratched the surface and if its to be looked at this thread is not the place for it.
Melvin van Peebles had grassroots appeal on a more non-conscious level with dib and dab at struggle related issues within Black life in general.
Wanda Robinson was in the same vein somewhat, conscious struggle related peeks here and there and very much seen through a woman's eyes.
Watts Prophets had women in the group whose voices included female matters among struggle focus and related issues.
Shange, with an African name as was being popularized at the time however was just about something else, the Rainbow. The African name was confusing and led to sales that otherwise wouldnta happened. Sales that were enabled by the flourishing of the various poets whether or not featuring African inspired drumming.
Again, this role of musics in the Black Liberation Struggle and its pacification by piggypacking ripoffs is off topic here.
Post #59, 60, 62, 63, 64, & 65, or parts of them, are best served by crosspost to a new thread for handling in and of this sub-topic's own full value.
In conclusion, I do not equate grassroots with only what Marxists label lumpen-proletariat. In an essay one is allowed their own definition only when stating so to begin with. Grassroots entails every segment of the population not tightly organized behind one organization. It's a general broad base of people down with a few shared basic concepts, principles, and practices that make them a truly acephalous 'movement'.
So what's grassroot? Top down 'leadership'? Nah. Bottom up ideology given to perceived 'organizers'? Yah.
Our grassroots are a heady cross fertilization of all ranges of thought in the Black Community. A community of many many intertwining cultures.
No more from me on these in this thread. Carry on.
EDIT: the importance of comic book stuff's impact. Wakanda is the creation of two white Jews, Stanley Lieberman and Jack Kutzberg. Blacks didn't elevate it into a symbol of black self-rule in replace of actual African polities. How many Blacks had any awareness countries on the continent free of settlers were just coming out of colonial hegemony if not outright foreign rule in July 1966 when the comic books Black Panther first saw print? Yet they never latched onto Wakanda in preference to actual African nations.
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That's a good point about Wakanda. On some counts today it seems to be a sort of cause celebre for many black queers. Now that you mention it when the film came out there was a flood of gushing praise. A Time Magazine reviewer wrote that the film is about “the revolutionary power of Black Panther.“ Another Time reviewer, doubles down, writing that Wakanda is “what America looks like when it’s allowed to be its truest, freest self. ” Really? But Doug would say its all diversionary.
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Originally posted by Doug: As for BLM, the whole point was to push feminist and non conforming sexual agendas and not to solve police brutality. The fact that you and others are mentioning feminism and queer identity when ostensibly talking about police brutality proves the point. It hasn't solved the problem it claims to want to address but has raised the awareness of the presence of queer folks in the black community which isn't really a goal for "black liberation". I mean in the past couple of years how often have you seen folks twerking or stripping at these BLM protests? The two things have absolutely nothing to do with each other and this is the problem with the intersectionality argument which basically boils down to interracial sex across genders as if that "solves" anything. And this can be seen even in the era of the Harlem renaissance and folks such as Van Vechten. And what happens as a result is an attempt to lump all resistance and opposition to police brutality and other issues into a single "camp" when a lot of folks are not interested in these other agendas and just want to get the problems fixed. FThe leftists love this but it means nothing to the people on the street in real life and those still fighting for reparations from that massacre.
OK, but BLM proponents argue that their main thing is the police brutality issue. Another line of reasoning is that some black queers and trans-folk are poor and are harassed, hence they qualify to be prominently under the "black issue" umbrella. What's your take?
Some high profile lesbians also express reservations about the "trans expansion." Says one professor:
"The effects of this [trans] lobbying can be seen everywhere. From placing trans women – some of them sex offenders – in female prisons, to the rise of ‘gender-neutral’ toilets and changing rooms, to trans women being placed on shortlists for women’s prizes and a rethink of women’s sport, the alterations have been rapid and seismic." -- Professor Kathleen Stock https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9155659/I-refuse-bullied-silence-PROFESSOR-KATHLEEN-STOCK.html
^^Could blacks be useful to deflect any criticism of the above as racist?
or example, this intersectional agenda likes to push queer representation as a "win", but a win for who? Who cares if Superman is black? Who cares if some fictional character is gay or gay and black? How is that helping anything in real life? For example, look at the the TV series the watchmen, where the main black character who survives the Tulsa massacre is a superhero who whose big secret was he was in an interracial gay relationship. And of course his partner was also a superhero and was against using their powers to fight racism. So what the hell does that have to do with anything?
Hmm, so you are saying this is part of a systematic co-optation method to push a gayish agenda behind the scenes? By using blacks as front-men or front-queers, those who question it can be tarred as "racist"?
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"Leftist" implies Marxism, Maoism, Socialism or communism but the NOI aint that
quote:
May 21, 2016 – Benton Convention Center, Winston Salem, NC
The summit’s theme, “Capitalism … the only true pathway to freedom” brought together experts in networking and business investment, business owners and operators, investment and tax strategists and a plethora of up and coming male and female Black entrepreneurs.
I think Doug is referring more to social liberalism and "Social Justice" for all "rights" groups and he thinks any alliance between black rights groups and any other rights group weakens black rights or black power movements, be it women's rights, gay rights, Hispanic rights, etc
The primary example of a group not allied to other rights groups is as he pointed out is the Nation of Islam. Their primary agenda is racial separation and to be allocated sovereign territory, not socialist he will probably be explaining what he means shortly in his own words
The Black Panther Party was open to collaborating or in sympathy with socialist revolutionary movements that transcended race bit maybe he thinks they were more compromised for this than the NOI
Many BLM protests had many white people with them chanting "Black Lives Matter" but I am not sure to what extent they were/are inside the organizing. The gay element is not prominent at protests (but some individuals are at some). As we have seen the BLM has given a lot of money they collected from donors to fund black gay organizations but with an emphasis on transgenders and women led organizations. Somebody might say that is a white influence. However there are blacks transgenders out there and the founders of the organization are lesbians. I think they just did what they wanted to do, they were against police brutality but also wanted to help black run LGBTQ groups on the low. The women who started it were pretty clever marketers. I don't see them as dupes. The Nation of Islam is male dominated. They are not into that
Agreed that we can't dismiss all of BLM as just dupes and fronts. But speaking of NOI, wouldn't they be part of a grassroots variant in black communities? They are heavily top-down, but they seem to also have some support from the bottom, per Tukler's grassroots from the bottom.
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Some have charged that BLM are not so much a cats-paws for a gay agenda, but rather to help the Dem establishment boost turnout during the 2020 election, and upcoming congressional elections. Why they ask is passing the BREATHE act, which has to do with policing last on the list while "ban Trump" and Republican leaders are towards the top? Perhaps Doug's argument can be flipped that way. The hidden controller of the blacks, including BLM, is actually the Dem establishment. . Ban Trump from future office, Republicans as
[ 08. June 2021, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: the lioness, ]
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique speaking of NOI, wouldn't they be part of a grassroots variant in black communities? They are heavily top-down, but they seem to also have some support from the bottom, per Tukler's grassroots from the bottom.
No, a grassroots organization forms spontaneously by groups of citizens coming together around some issue/s and deciding to take collective action and organize
The Nation of Islam comes from Master Fard Muhammad, a single individual preaching his unique ideas. It's very top down, ruled by one man and the name of the organization is religious and has a lot of rules of behavioral conduct and don't do protests like movements do or march with rifles _________
The Nation of Islam was founded by Wallace Fard Muhammad, who appeared in Detroit in July 1930, when he began preaching his ideas among the city's African American community. Fard Muhammad's following grew rapidly. Around 7000 to 8000 people attended his meetings, which were held three days a week. He wrote two manuals, the Secret Ritual of the Nation of Islam and the Teaching for the Lost Found Nation of Islam in a Mathematical Way. He also urged his followers to listen to the radio sermons of the Watch Tower Society and Baptist fundamentalists. He established a bureaucratic administration within the Nation, its own system of schools, and the Fruit of Islam paramilitary wing.
In the early stage of his ministry, Fard "used the Bible as his textbook, since it was the only religious book with which the majority of his hearers were familiar. With growing prestige over a constantly increasing group, [Fard] became bolder in his denunciation of white people and began to attack the teachings of the Bible in such a way as to shock his hearers and bring them to an emotional crisis."
Beynon's interviewees told him that reports of Fard's message spread throughout the black community. Attendance at the house meetings grew until the listeners were divided into groups and taught in shifts. Finally, the community contributed money and rented a hall to serve as a Temple where meetings were conducted. The Quran was soon introduced as the most authoritative of all texts for the study of the faith. Fard prepared texts that served as authoritative manuals of the faith and were memorized verbatim by his followers.
Fard named his community the "Nation of Islam". Following the rapid increase in membership, he instituted a formal organizational structure. He established the University of Islam, where school-age children were taught, rather than in the public schools. He established the Moslem Girls' Training and General Civilization Class, where women were taught how to keep their houses, clean and cook. The men of the organization were drilled by captains and referred to as the Fruit of Islam. The entire movement was placed under a Minister of Islam.
According to Beynon, Fard's followers grew to approximately eight thousand. "Within three years (1930-33) the prophet not only began the movement but organized it so well that he himself was able to recede into the background, appearing almost never to his followers during the final months of his residence in Detroit."
quote:Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova: Some have charged that BLM are not so much a cats-paws for a gay agenda, but rather to help the Dem establishment boost turnout during the 2020 election, and upcoming congressional elections. Why they ask is passing the BREATHE act, which has to do with policing last on the list while "ban Trump" and Republican leaders are towards the top? Perhaps Doug's argument can be flipped that way. The hidden controller of the blacks, including BLM, is actually the Dem establishment. . Ban Trump from future office, Republicans as
There are various groups with overlapping concerns, common cause. Malcolm was rumored to met with KKK leaders to discuss the creation of a black state
It would have to proven if at the same time one of the groups was controlling the other group.
The BLM list of demands is Anti-Trump. But because the Democratic party are also anti-Trump that does not means they are the only group that is anti-Trump. Independent groups can also be Anti-Trump but not not support the Democratic party.
Patrice Cullors and the other founders of the BLM are very intelligent and remarkable at marketing. The group as female leadership. And have contributed a lot of money to black transgender organizations. I'm sure they are honestly also against Trump. But black lesbians and transgender are only a fraction of the Black community. So they may realize if they leave that out on their demands they can raise more money. Just think about somebody like Jay Z or Nas hypothetically making a large donation to the BLM which is very possible. If they called it Black and Trans Lives Matter" they might not.
It's possible that they are being controlled but common cause does not prove control. They may have decided putting greater emphasis on being Anti-Trump will bring more donations and as violent crime is going up in the big cities more people are questioning the defunding of police. And the original leaders have left the BLM so that is another complexity. So they left after raising 90 Million and that disclosure on their site about to the organizations they gave grants to was probably made after they raised most of that money. So donors may not have known the extent of it or exactly where the rest of the money went that was not granted to those other organizations
Nevertheless apart from giving money to these small black run queer and trans organizations they did not use their platform to speak loudly in the public area on behalf of queer and transgender rights and we can see that is not even mentioned on their demands list. So they rea not promoting queer and trans lifestyle heavily to the public but have directed some resources to such organizations
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova: Some have charged that BLM are not so much a cats-paws for a gay agenda, but rather to help the Dem establishment boost turnout during the 2020 election, and upcoming congressional elections. Why they ask is passing the BREATHE act, which has to do with policing last on the list while "ban Trump" and Republican leaders are towards the top? Perhaps Doug's argument can be flipped that way. The hidden controller of the blacks, including BLM, is actually the Dem establishment. . Ban Trump from future office, Republicans as
What I am saying is that BLM is a leftist organization led by people trained and organized around a paradigm that deliberately includes gay and queer talking points as a conscious deliberate paradigm. That paradigm basically is based around the idea that gay and queer LEADERS are the key to successful black struggle. They state this openly on their own website. And this is part of a larger liberal academic agenda starting in the white queer community to promote such leadership in black issues. As such it is another one of those pet projects funded by non blacks that on the surface seem to be about one thing but underneath are about something else. The bottom line is you really cannot point to anything BLM has accomplished regarding police brutality. Yet they have raised a lot of money, mostly from non blacks and that money has gone to what? Lawyers for black victims? Nope. Families of the victims? Nope. Etc. BLM is also a hash tag and a phrase that has been adopted by many to symbolize this current struggle against police brutality and oddly enough most times it is heard in the Halls of Academia, large Media organizations and Silicon Valley corporations CLAIIMING to be progressive. Most of them are just promoting intersectional issues, not necessarily anything specific to black people. That is because the origins of all of this are in the leftist establishment and they can promote talking points and agendas in fictional media but what does that have to do with actual progress in the real world? Nothing. I know that most of the BLM protests I have seen over the last few years were mostly non blacks to begin with.
At the end of the day, the whole point of these leftist front groups whether it be the NAACP or others is to promote the illusion of change but not actual change. They pick token leaders and craft talking points designed to appear progressive but only serve the interests of those with the money backing and financing such projects. The left is no different than the right in that respect, because if the grassroots was truly to overthrow injustice, the left would be out right along with the right. So they have to get out in front of you in order to avoid ever getting to that point. So yes, the democratic party would have a role in this as well, just as the Republicans do with their right leaning groups. I mean there are all kinds of think tanks, philanthropic organizations and non profits associated with various billionaires who do this for a living.
quote: Garza, a black queer woman, is an Oakland-based organizer, writer, and public speaker who is currently the special projects director for the National Domestic Workers Alliance, the nation’s leading voice for dignity and fairness for the millions of domestic workers in the United States. .... The movement has been massively successful in organizing hundreds of thousands of people, and dollars, to fight for “ideological and political intervention in a world where Black lives are systematically and intentionally targeted for demise,” as the founders write of Black Lives Matter’s “herstory.” What’s more, it laid the groundwork for today’s women’s movement, the Women’s March, the rise of #MeToo, and other sociopolitical, digitally native social justice movements.
...
Given the tremendous power Garza and her team inspire, it was fascinating to hear her definition of “power” at the Lesbians Who Tech Summit:
...
To address her frustration with America’s centuries-long dismissal of black people’s needs and wants, Garza is leading the Black Census Project, the largest survey of black people’s needs in America that’s been done since the Reconstruction era. It’s part of the Black Futures Lab, which works to make black people powerful in politics. To date, the project has reached over 18,000 black people in America, including many people who identify as black, but not African-American. Their goal is to reach 200,000 in the coming year.
quote: Sarah Jackson (SJ): I’d like to begin by asking what role you see feminism, and feminist scholarship in particular, playing in today’s racial justice movements, as well as what you think scholars can learn from activists and vice versa.
Cathy Cohen (CC): That’s a really big and important question. At its most basic level I think that feminism at the very least—and maybe most importantly—makes us stop and ask about the role that women, and here I mean both cis and trans women, are playing at this particular time in the multiple movements that are emerging, and particularly, at least for the work that I’m doing and thinking about, in what people are calling the “black lives movement.” ... Second, I think feminism is informing the movement for black lives in terms of how it’s structured and its leadership. There’s some important feminist work that tells us that there are different forms of leadership that we should be paying attention to. Whether it is Belinda Robnett’s work on the civil rights movement and bridge leaders or the exceptional work that Barbara Ransby has done thinking about Ella Baker and more democratic forms of radical leadership, I think many of the young leaders in the Black Lives Matter movement recognize that the male charismatic leader, or the singular charismatic leader, is not the form of leadership that they adhere to or they going to put forth. In fact, many of these new organizations are led by young black women who identify as queer and who promote the idea, as Barbara Ransby has noted, that far from this movement being led by one person or having no leaders, it is a leaderful movement with cis and trans women taking positions of power. So the organizations that are part of a network of groups working under the broad framework of the Black Lives Matter movement look different and structure their leadership differently than organizations significant to the civil rights movement in part because of feminist teaching, feminist scholarship, especially black feminist teaching and scholarship and the fact that many of these young activists have been in the classroom learning about these alternative forms of organizing and leadership.
as the founders write of Black Lives Matter’s “herstory.” What’s more, it laid the groundwork for today’s women’s movement, the Women’s March, the rise of #MeToo, and other sociopolitical, digitally native social justice movements.
I think they way overstate their influence. BLM did not "lay the foundation" for the women's movement for example. Where do they get that exaggeration?
At its most basic level I think that feminism at the very least—and maybe most importantly—makes us stop and ask about the role that women, and here I mean both cis and trans women, are playing at this particular time in the multiple movements that are emerging,
There appears to be a backlash developing among women at "trans" gender "women"- that is males in female form (mostly but also vice versa) entering women's sports, or claiming prizes in various fields that have been established for real women. What used to be called "transgender" has changed critics say. Used to be serious people who were getting deep hormone therapy, psychiatric support and/or and actual physical surgery such as penis removal or reconstruction.
But now its heavily become an "identity" thing- based on how people "feel" or who they "identify" with, and all are supposed to bow and fall in line with that. The use of "umbrella politics" to obfuscate or cover the scene also means that those who are transvestites- men getting a thrill from dressing up as women and/or having sex with other men while pretending to be "women" are also included under the "trans rainbow" - hardly the serious transgender cases of old. In the UK there are cases of male sex offenders getting a "trans" (female) classification and going into women's prisons. (see prof book below). Those who question this new "woke" orthodoxy or call for clarity, are bullied as "phobics" that should be "cancelled."
^Case in point. The professor above, who by the way is a liberal feminist and lesbian, has fallen foul of the "trans" police. She has no problem with two categories- serious people who are actually making major physical transformations, and a second category she identifies as those who are "trans" based on "feelings" identity. She says both can co-exist peacefully. Just be clear about who is who. Bad form for Prof Stock to voice such views in academia- she is now dogged by a 24-7 "trans police" harassment campaign. Stock's book lays out many of these issues in detail, but trans opponents don't even want to debate the issues- they want her fired from her job, and "cancelled" from book deals, media appearances, professional conferences, etc critics charge.
If Doug is correct then another angle arises: BLM may be the chosen catspaw to lead blacks up the primrose path to "trans", as already seen increasingly among whites. The use of black women to lead the charge disarms or deflects criticism as the agenda moves forward. By using the right covering mechanism or group with the right hot button issues, black, particularly "old school" black "cis" women, might fall in line.. If they can get to the next generation of black youth on these matters things will become easier to pursue.
Another angle is that by using black front men or "women", those who question the agenda can be charged with "racism."
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In the year since George Floyd was murdered, racial justice organizations across the country have been inundated with millions of dollars in donations and thousands of eager new activists. They have earned a prominent platform that puts them on the front lines of political and social battles.
Their influence has been immediate: A local organization helped St. Louis elect a Black woman as mayor for the first time. A longtime activist group in Louisville, Ky., oversaw what became a hub for protests over the police killing of Breonna Taylor. And in Chicago, activists have lobbied the city to fund a program that would dispatch paramedics, instead of police officers, to people experiencing mental health crises.
But the surge in attention has also brought greater scrutiny and exposed tensions and challenges within a movement that saw tremendous growth over the past year, much like other progressive groups such as the Women’s March, which saw three of its leaders step down amid controversy....
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova: Originally posted by Doug:
as the founders write of Black Lives Matter’s “herstory.” What’s more, it laid the groundwork for today’s women’s movement, the Women’s March, the rise of #MeToo, and other sociopolitical, digitally native social justice movements.
I think they way overstate their influence. BLM did not "lay the foundation" for the women's movement for example. Where do they get that exaggeration?
Another angle is that by using black front men or "women", those who question the agenda can be charged with "racism."
I am just saying that the feminists in academia have been promoting this idea for a long time along with their supporters on the left. And this has been an ongoing process going all the way back to the sufferage movement. In the 60s you had the womens liberation movement and Gloria Steinem, from the left, who partnered with black women.
quote: Gloria Steinem has been at the forefront of American feminism for a half century. But she’s never seen activism quite like today’s #MeToo movement.
“Clearly, at this moment in time we are gaining our voices in a way that has never happened before,” said Steinem, the co-founder of Ms. magazine and Women’s Media Center, at the Massachusetts Women’s Conference in Boston on Dec. 8.
Many women have found a sense of unity and purpose in #MeToo—a movement launched ten years ago by Tarana Burke, a black activist, and energized this year in the aftermath of sexual harassment and assault allegations against Hollywood mogul Harvey Weinstein. But while Steinem is heartened by this moment, she believes the quest for gender equality will not succeed if the mainstream movement ignores an essential reality: Black women have always been at the heart of feminist activism.
Speaking with American comedian and writer Phoebe Robinson, Steinem outlined the #MeToo movement’s blindspots, the importance of intersectional feminism, and how to continue dismantling sexual harassment and misogyny in the months and years to come.
And we can also talk of folks like Angela Davis from the same era.
So basically, building on that, came the intersectional agenda and queer agenda from again the liberal left which was grafted onto the black womens movement to create what you see today.
And it is the people themselves the feminist and leftist academics who will tell you this. They have speeches on it and write books on it all the time.
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Angela Davis opposed the 1995 Million Man March, arguing that the exclusion of women from this event promoted male chauvinism.
Is that a white owned concept?
She said that Louis Farrakhan and other organizers appeared to prefer that women take subordinate roles in society. Together with Kimberlé Crenshaw and others, she formed the African American Agenda 2000, an alliance of black feminists.
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Originally posted by Doug: And it is the people themselves the feminist and leftist academics who will tell you this. They have speeches on it and write books on it all the time.
Hmm, can you list a few books on this?
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova: Originally posted by Doug: And it is the people themselves the feminist and leftist academics who will tell you this. They have speeches on it and write books on it all the time.
Hmm, can you list a few books on this?
I don't read these kinds of books because it isn't my kind of thinking, but I am somewhat familiar with some of the academics. Kathy Cohen, Barbara Ransby, Bell Hooks, Patricia Hill Collins, Kimberle Crenshaw (defined intersectionality) and Audre Lords are some who have written books. These people are out there if you look but for the most part black grassroots aren't familiar with them because they mostly function in white liberal academic and philanthropic circles. And they have crafted a set of talking points, policies and agendas openly supported by the white left, corporations, the Democratic party and so forth because they aren't a threat to the status quo.
quote:Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova: Time will tell on any gay leadership trend for blacks, and it may well being new perspectives. Some have argued for a new generation as evidenced by those gay founders of BLM.
But at the same time some black queers charge that the big media is not giving more scope for black lesbian and gay visibility, as in how a lesbian themed scene was allegedly cut from "Black Panther", even though some lesbianism themes appear in the print comic written by Roxanne Gay.
This sparked a hashtag campaign #LetAyoHaveAGirlfriend.
How can Wakanda exist without procreation? For procreation you need men and women. Light skinned Black people not being featured and being upset over this does more justice to their claims.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Angela Davis opposed the 1995 Million Man March, arguing that the exclusion of women from this event promoted male chauvinism.
Is that a white owned concept?
She said that Louis Farrakhan and other organizers appeared to prefer that women take subordinate roles in society. Together with Kimberlé Crenshaw and others, she formed the African American Agenda 2000, an alliance of black feminists.
The 1995 Million Man March was about Black men taking accountability, so she didn't get the memo.
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