posted
I remember when the new reconstruction of the 10 000 years old "Cheddar man" from Somerset in England was published. Many got a bit surprised by the dark skin tone of the reconstruction. But obviously it was based on DNA studies which showed that he lacked certain genes for light skin. But he had blue eyes.
Later DNA from a 5700 years old chewing gum made of birch tar, found on Lolland in Denmark, were analyzed and the DNA showed itself to belong to a young girl. She seemed to share the same western hunter gatherer traits as the Cheddar man, dark skin and blue eyes.
Then some 7700 years old human bones were found in Motala in Sweden. Unlike Cheddar man and Lola they had genes for both light skin and light hair. One of the Motala individuals were nicknamed "Ludvig".
So it seems the population during the mesolithic in Northern Europe was somewhat different between different hunter gatherer populations.
Some researchers are a bit skeptical against the interpretation of Cheddar man as very dark. The uncertainty is still too big to draw hasty conclusions about ancient peoples skin color they think.
So the question is, have they exaggerated the dark skin tone of the Cheddar Man?
quote: Was Cheddar man white after all? There's no way to know that the first Briton had ‘dark to black skin’ says scientist who helped reconstruct his 10,000-year-old face The bones are the oldest near-complete human skeleton ever found in Britain Experts tested DNA taken from bone powder by drilling a hole through the skull It showed there was a 76 per cent chance that Cheddar Man was ‘dark to black’ Scientist behind the test used says it is impossible to be certain of this fact
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posted
Not totally unimportant since it can tell us about human adaptation to lower intensity of UV light. Skin color can be an important factor for our health.
Also it can tell us about the interplay of natural selection, genetic drift and perhaps also sexual selection.
Otherwise it is as unimportant as the skin color of the ancient Egyptians.
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posted
There are multiple examples of dark Europeans from historical sources such as the Etruscans and ancient Cretans. So it may not be totally inaccurate. However, I don't believe that it is possible to derive an accurate reconstruction of such phenotype variation from DNA alone. And this is the main crux of the original paper was that they could identify possible skin color based on certain genetic markers.
And we know that there has been numerous waves of invasions in Europe over the last 3,000 years. But we also have remains such as Oetzi the Iceman as well with well preserved skin.
posted
Yes, we have bodies like Ötzi, we also have relatively well preserved bronze age bodies from Denmark (they even have well preserved blonde hair), and early iron age bog bodies from Britain, Germany and Denmark.
Especially Scandinavia has a somewhat complicated early prehistory with Western hunter gatherers (who where somewhat dark according to the interpretations made from DNA) migrating in at the end of the ice age from south, and from north and east came eastern hunter gatherers who according to DNA had genes for light skin and light hair. The eastern immigration after the ice age seems to have two components, based on their lithic traditions.
Later came farmers with their origin in Anatolia, and even later during middle neolithic time people with their origins on the Eurasian steppes moved in. All these people are still represented in Scandinavian DNA, plus some additional immigrations, one from the east who affected the forefathers of todays Saami around 2500 years ago.
Art is always a bit tricky since not all representations are naturalistic but follow all kinds of conventions, both concerning skin color, facial features, body positions and so on. So both Minoans and Etruscans have promted some debates how they really looked like.
Concerning Scandinavia we have the 5700 years old girl Lola whose DNA was extracted from chewing gum made from birch tar. She is reconstructed as relatively dark skinned and with blue eyes. But from Motala in Sweden we have 7700 years old skeletal remains who are interpreted as light skinned and light haired based on DNA.
posted
From the Chalcolithic of Northern Iberia we have an example of a person with a genetic disposition for light skin and hair.
It is an interesting case, showing that it is possible to get information from even rather degraded DNA.
quote: Abstract The genetic study of ancient samples is quite similar to a forensic critical sample analysis with an unknown origin. In both cases, it is not possible to compare the genetic information with other family members, being almost impossible to achieve the individual identification. The prediction of externally visible characteristics (EVC) of an individual and his biogeographical ancestry could definitely be a crucial contribution in a forensic casework.
Therefore, the aim of the present work was the molecular study of a very critical sample, a Chalcolithic (3480 ± 30 YBP) individual found in Asturias, Northern Iberia, intending to discover a possible geographical ancestry for these remains, and the inference of a group of feasible EVCs (hair, skin and iris pigmentation).
Given that ancient DNA is often highly damaged, two different methodologies were used in order to determine the biogeographical ancestry of the individual: mitochondrial DNA (HVR-I and -II) and Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms typing.
Despite the antiquity of the samples, the genetic information recovered proved of great value. We could determine that the individual had a European ancestry, blond hair, light skin color and brown eyes. Such outcome reveals that it is possible to obtain not only biogeographical but also phenotypic information from a very critical sample.
Phenotyping the ancient world: The physical appearance and ancestry of very degraded samples from a chalcolithic human remains Science direct, 2017
The DNA of Cheddar Man: Cheddar Man's Y-DNA belonged to an ancient sister branch of modern I2-L38 (I2a2). The I2a2 subclade is still extant in males of the modern British Isles and across other parts of Europe. The mitochondrial DNA of Cheddar Man was discovered to be haplogroup U5b1 by a Natural History Museum study in 2018 using next generation sequencing
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Yes, we have bodies like Ötzi,
"His body was naturally "scalped" by the process of mummification. The upper layer of skin including most of his hair had peeled right off the body during the time that he was in the ice. Though he had a full head of hair, it was not found attached to the body."
posted
Seems they by his morphology, still consider him related with contemporary Europeans. He lived at a time when Anatolian farmers already had spread to various parts of Europe. And they are often considered relatively light skinned.
They made a facial reconstruction of him
Hair and skin tone must be an educated guess, but his skull form and facial features are probably reasonable correct.
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: facial features are probably reasonable correct.
the fleshy parts of the face cannot be predicted that accurately with a skull, the lips and nose. Similar the hair texture is often a complete guess. The precise level of skin darkness or lack of also cannot be predicted with certainty
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posted
Up in Scandinavia they analyzed the DNA of at least two Scandinavian hunter gatherers from Motala, 8000 years old. They concluded that they had relatively light skin. Scaninavian hunter gatheres were a mix of Western Hunter gatherers and Eastern hunter gatheres (who seems to had a disposition for lighter skin and also hair).
They were reconstructed by the well known Oscar Nilsson, expert on facial reconstructions of ancient people
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Up in Scandinavia they analyzed the DNA of at least two Scandinavian hunter gatherers from Motala, 8000 years old. They concluded that they had relatively light skin. Scaninavian hunter gatheres were a mix of Western Hunter gatherers and Eastern hunter gatheres (who seems to had a disposition for lighter skin and also hair).
They were reconstructed by the well known Oscar Nilsson, expert on facial reconstructions of ancient people
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: facial features are probably reasonable correct.
the fleshy parts of the face cannot be predicted that accurately with a skull, the lips and nose. Similar the hair texture is often a complete guess
Skin tone and hair must be an educated guess. Nose can partly be deduced by analyzing the nasal openings and it´s details. Lips are maybe a bit harder. Oscar Nilsson made some interesting videos about how he reconstructed the Lagmansören woman, a 4000 years old skeleton from northern Sweden. Unfortunately the videos are in Swedish.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Up in Scandinavia they analyzed the DNA of at least two Scandinavian hunter gatherers from Motala, 8000 years old. They concluded that they had relatively light skin. Scaninavian hunter gatheres were a mix of Western Hunter gatherers and Eastern hunter gatheres (who seems to had a disposition for lighter skin and also hair).
They were reconstructed by the well known Oscar Nilsson, expert on facial reconstructions of ancient people
Suppose the above people looked exactly the same but were the color of milk chocolate
what difference would it make?
In the long run it would not make any difference. But I notice that here on Egyptsearch skin color seems rather important, and one can get fiercly attacked if one claims that this or that ancient people were light skinned. And skin color has a sort of cultural meaning, it is a part of many peoples identity, so it is always sensitive.
Beyond that it can also have a scientific interest regarding peoples adaptation to different amounts of UV-radiation and other environmental factors.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2762 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: In the long run it would not make any difference. But I notice that here on Egyptsearch skin color seems rather important, and one can get fiercly attacked if one claims that this or that ancient people were light skinned. And skin color has a sort of cultural meaning, it is a part of many peoples identity, so it is always sensitive.
So if it would not make any difference then you should resist the skin color game and attack it's premises But instead you are playing it, "how dark were Europeans" "Sarah's white Complexion" etc
And it's obvious if you go into Pakistan and lecture about Indian history or vice versa, the crowd is not going to enjoy it
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posted
Skin color is interesting, both regarding to all social and cultural implications, but also from a scientific view point. It says something about adaptation, and what environment people lived in, or came from. It can also tell us about the risk for different ailments, as D Vitamine deficiency and ather conditions.
Then one can sometimes also be irritated on the most extreme Afrocentrics declaring nearly all ancient people as black. They seem only interested in ancient cultures and peoples if they can claim them as black.
At least I can also appreciate for example West African cultures without trying to claim that they were white.
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posted
They predicted his Skin color using a computer algorithm. They inputted the Genetic Variation of Skin Tone Alleles of known populations into a computer and matched Cheddar Man's to the modern humans. For Skin tone alleles He matched the DNA of Aboriginal Australians. From that they used the skin tone of Aboriginal Australians to portray Cheddar man.
This is how it went down.
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Africa is right there and the go far away into Australia to find a color match
Africans remember when I tell you that the European race is basically homosexual.
They use dark as a word to replace Black when dark is a evil deceptive word meant darkness is satan and devil word and european keep trying to lull black people to turn on God who is awesome and merciful
God shows us that the europeans medicine actually medisin is a sin and does not heal. The pills is basically all placebos, but you Get punished from God for taking them
European try and attract the African through hate speech like slavery and with obvious ignoring of Africa being right there so they ignore Africa and go to Australia and uses australians instead of Africans.
Do not fall for their tactics it's all homosexual dreams of the African cowering to the European. Its faggotry at its highest.
Why dont others point it out
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: They predicted his Skin color using a computer algorithm. They inputted the Genetic Variation of Skin Tone Alleles of known populations into a computer and matched Cheddar Man's to the modern humans. For Skin tone alleles He matched the DNA of Aboriginal Australians. From that they used the skin tone of Aboriginal Australians to portray Cheddar man.
This is how it went down.
Yes, since we have no preserved skin or hair from most stone age people we must compare alleles with those who regulate skin tone today.
So for Cheddar man and others they found alleles that corresponds with dark skinned people, while they in the case of the Motala SHG found alleles that corresponded with light skinned people.
Mesolithic Scandinavians were the result of a mix between WHG who came from the south and EHG who came from the north and east, They blended and became the SHG who show traits from both groups.
EHG can even have consisted of two separate groups based on the findings of different stone technologies.
Britain seems to have had no immigration from EHG.
About 6000 years ago new people with ancestry in Anatolia came to Scandinavia introducing farming. They are thought to have had relatively light skin and brown eyes.
From Denmark we have the DNA from a girl, which was found on a "chewing gum" made of birch tar, showing that she was of WHG ancestry with somewhat dark skin.
Here is a picture of how she maybe can have looked like, based on her DNA. She is depicted with artifacts typical of her time and place.
So in Scandinavia we had people who could look both like her and like the Motala individuals I posted earlier in the thread.
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posted
Paleo artist Tom Björklund has made a quite cute painting illustrating the different ancestries and eventual phenotypes of the first peoples in Scandinavia (Western Hunter gatherers and Eastern Hunter gatherers who blended together to become Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers).
Here is his own words about the painting
quote: Mesolithic mix
When the last Ice Age ended, Fennoscandia really was a Terra nullius, an uninhabited barren landscape, empty and lifeless – except for some Norway lemmings (the only endemic vertebrates in the region) which had survived on nunataks along the Norwegian coast.
But soon, following the retreating ice, came the first humans from two directions representing populations quite distinctive from each other, the old European hunter-gatherers from the south and others from the north-east, the process resulting in a rather interesting cocktail of cultural and genetic heritage.
The illustration may be a bit exaggerated in order to emphasize the point, I don't know exactly how dark or light people were in respective groups and if there were individuals with blond hair at all at this point or if it is a post Mesolithic trait. Anyway, we don't have much left in us of those ancient ancestors, two additional waves of migrations washed away most of it.
posted
About the Iceman: His hair seems to have been brown, wavy and of medium length. Some of his hair was preserved and has been analyzed.
Also his DNA has been analyzed:
quote: The genetic results add both information and intrigue. From his genes, we now know that the Iceman had brown hair and brown eyes and that he was probably lactose intolerant and thus could not digest milk’somewhat ironic, given theories that he was a shepherd. Not surprisingly, he is more related to people living in southern Europe today than to those in North Africa or the Middle East, with close connections to geographically isolated modern populations in Sardinia, Sicily, and the Iberian Peninsula
posted
Especially Scandinavia has a somewhat complicated early prehistory with Western hunter gatherers (who where somewhat dark according to the interpretations made from DNA) migrating in at the end of the ice age from south, and from north and east came eastern hunter gatherers who according to DNA had genes for light skin and light hair. The eastern immigration after the ice age seems to have two components, based on their lithic traditions.
Later came farmers with their origin in Anatolia, and even later during middle neolithic time people with their origins on the Eurasian steppes moved in. All these people are still represented in Scandinavian DNA, plus some additional immigrations, one from the east who affected the forefathers of todays Saami around 2500 years ago.
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Keep in mind that we shouldn't take phenotype predictions for Ancient folks too seriously. Hopefully, we get such detailed predictions for Ancient Egypt, Ancient Nubia, Mesopotamia, and the Levant too.
posted
mightywolf Reduce the pixel resolutions please ///MODPosts: 1785 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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posted
Truly impresssed by the BioMuse charts info-frames layout. Was surprised by Hellenistic Thessaloniki's complexion, so near Thrace which warred with Scythia. Much too late for introducers of Fulani −13910*T and one Mykenaean K ancestry, or African HLA genes and nrY haplotypes. Even for an offspring of Skythian Amazons like the last img here.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: About the Iceman: His hair seems to have been brown, wavy and of medium length. Some of his hair was preserved and has been analyzed.
Also his DNA has been analyzed:
quote: The genetic results add both information and intrigue. From his genes, we now know that the Iceman had brown hair and brown eyes and that he was probably lactose intolerant and thus could not digest milk’somewhat ironic, given theories that he was a shepherd. Not surprisingly, he is more related to people living in southern Europe today than to those in North Africa or the Middle East, with close connections to geographically isolated modern populations in Sardinia, Sicily, and the Iberian Peninsula
quote:"Ötzi, a mummy who was found September 1991 in the Ötztal Alps, is subclade K1ö for Ötzi. Ötzi has mtDNA marker 10978 in common with the Ashkenazi population and others who fall under the K1a1b1a subclade. [...] As they estimate the parent clade K1a1b1 to be over 10K years old, in the interim ~6,000 years between the appearance of K1a1b1 and the appearance of K1a1b1a, the maternal lineage could have migrated to and from the Levant on numerous occasions (in a manner similar to the movement pattern of H7c1). As noted earlier, prior to the Arab conquest in the 7th century CE the Western and Eastern sides of the Mediterranean basin were as well, if not better, connected to each other than the Western Med-iterranean was to parts of Northwestern Europe. When considering the age of the haplogroup, its presence (however limited) among Sephardic Jews and its apparent absence in non-Jewish populations (Costa et al., 2013; Behar et al., 2006) all seem to indicate that a Levantine origin is far more likely for K1a1b1a than a European one, regardless of where K1a1b1 first originated. […] It is plausible that among the Judeans who moved to the region around the Black Sea there were women belonging to the JudeanEuropean community in Greece, Italy, or Anatolia who were the source of the major and minor mtDNA lineages in East European Ashkenazim. Later, during the 8th and 10th centuries, Jewish women with their families from Byzantium (Balkans, Italy, and Greece) arrived in Khazaria, who may have been carriers of K1a1b1a (and N1b2) as well.
Founder clades K2a2 and K1a9 also show a difference in distribution between West and East European Ashkenazim. K1a9 originated in Western Europe."
quote:"Here we show that all four major founders, ~40% of Ashkenazi mtDNA variation, have ancestry in prehistoric Europe, rather than the Near East or Caucasus. Furthermore, most of the remaining minor founders share a similar deep European ancestry. Thus the great majority of Ashkenazi maternal lineages were not brought from the Levant, as commonly supposed, nor recruited in the Caucasus, as sometimes suggested, but assimilated within Europe. These results point to a significant role for the conversion of women in the formation of Ashkenazi communities, and provide the foundation for a detailed reconstruction of Ashkenazi genealogical history. […] K1a1b1a (slightly re-defined, due to the improved resolution of the new tree) (Fig. 2) accounts for 63% of Ashkenazi K lineages (or ~20% of total Ashkenazi lineages) and dates to ~4.4 ka with maximum likelihood (ML); however, all of the samples within it, except for one, nest within a further subclade, K1a1b1a1, dating to ~2.3 ka (Supplementary Data 2). K1a1b1a1 is also present in non-Ashkenazi samples, mostly from central/east Europe."
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