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Title : Genomic sequence data from Neolithic and Epipaleolithic individuals from northwestern Africa.
quote:In northwestern Africa, lifestyle transitioned from foraging to food-production ~7,400 years ago, but what sparked that change remains unclear. Archaeological data supports conflicting views: that migrant European Neolithic farmers brought the new way of life to North Africa, or that local hunter-gatherers adopted technological innovations. The latter is also supported by archaeogenetic data. Here, we fill key chronological and archaeogenetic gaps for the Maghreb, from Epipalaeolithic to Middle Neolithic, by sequencing the genomes of nine individuals (to between 45.8 and 0.2× genome coverage). Remarkably, we trace 8,000 years of population continuity and isolation from the Upper Palaeolithic via the Epipaleolithic, to some Maghrebi Neolithic farming groups. However, remains from the earliest Neolithic contexts showed mostly European Neolithic ancestry. We suggest that farming was introduced by European migrants and then it was rapidly adopted by local groups. During the Middle Neolithic, a new ancestry from the Levant appears in the Maghreb, coinciding with the arrival of pastoralism in the region and all three ancestries blend together during the Late Neolithic. Our results reveal ancestry shifts in the Neolithization of northwestern Africa that likely mirrored a heterogeneous economic and cultural landscape, in a more multifaceted process than observed in other regions.
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I remember your comment about how all these things are confusing.
Wait until this drops in tandem with the new fulani paper claiming that the Fulani were basically Late_Neolithic North Africans before spreading out from the Sahara. It will interesting how they will eventually explian how they Got their lactase persistance.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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Well, going by your incredulous tone I would assume it's some kind of lie to either make the Fulani non-African or by admixture favoring Europeans ability to travel while Africans were "stuck" in whatever region on the continent.
Also, I recall you saying North Africans acquired most of their light skin genes from foreigners,I've been scouring the net to find something to confirm that,you have any links or key words I can look up for that info?
Posts: 1123 | From: New York | Registered: Feb 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: I remember your comment about how all these things are confusing.
Wait until this drops in tandem with the new fulani paper claiming that the Fulani were basically Late_Neolithic North Africans before spreading out from the Sahara. It will interesting how they will eventually explian how they Got their lactase persistance.
Wouldn't the migration of R-V88 towards the south or the existence of Iheren-style depictions of leucoderm people in the 4th millennium BC support the expansion of a Morocco_LN group in the Sahara ?
I remember Myles et al. 2005 reported that the lactase persistence allele found in North Africans has a Middle Eastern origin. :
quote:Milk consumption and thus lactose tolerance are assumed to have spread with pastoralism and we propose that by looking at the relevant mutations in and around the lactase gene in human populations, we can gain insight into the origin(s) and spread of dairying. We genotyped the putatively causal allele for lactose tolerance (-13910T) and constructed haplotypes from several polymorphisms in and around the lactase gene (LCT) in three North African Berber populations and compared our results with previously published data. We found that the frequency of the -13910T allele predicts the frequency of lactose tolerance in several Eurasian and North African Berber populations but not in most sub-Saharan African populations. Our analyses suggest that contemporary Berber populations possess the genetic signature of a past migration of pastoralists from the Middle East and that they share a dairying origin with Europeans and Asians, but not with sub-Saharan Africans.
So it appears that pastoralists migrated from the Nile Valley during the Mid-Holocene, bringing with them ovicaprid stock of ultimately Near Eastern origin. These people are probably the first speakers of Proto-Berber, and this migration may also provide an explanation for the Levantine ancestry detected in the two Copper Age North Africans from Spain and Sardinia.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Thereal: [QB] Well, going by your incredulous tone I would assume it's some kind of lie to either make the Fulani non-African or by admixture favoring Europeans ability to travel while Africans were "stuck" in whatever region on the continent.
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: Also, I recall you saying North Africans acquired most of their light skin genes from foreigners,I've been scouring the net to find something to confirm that,you have any links or key words I can look up for that info?
here one example :
quote: Lastly, although limited by low coverage, phenotypic predictions based on genetic variants of known effects agree with our estimates of global ancestry. IAM people did not possess any of the European SNPs associated with light pigmentation, and most likely had dark skin and eyes. IAM samples contain ancestral alleles for pigmentation-associated variants present in SLC24A5 (rs1426654), SLC45A2 (rs16891982), and OCA2 (rs1800401 and 12913832) genes. On the other hand, KEB individuals exhibit some European-derived alleles that predispose individuals to lighter skin and eye color, including those on genes SLC24A5 (rs1426654) and OCA2 (rs1800401) (SI Appendix, Supplementary Note 11).
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Antalas. You think that the Fulani got the European LP gene from the middle east during the late Neolithic?
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Antalas. You think that the Fulani got the European LP gene from the middle east during the late Neolithic?
Logically they would have inherited it from their North African ancestors since North Africans also possess european variants.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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Then "Levantine" ancestry came second with pastoralism.
Why would we expect the European variant for milk consumption to prevail?
There are several possible scenarios : One possibility is a selection or bottleneck effect. Also if you pay attention you'll see that Berbers today, especially those in the southern regions, have very low Levantine ancestry. Therefore, it is possible that the introgression of North African ancestry occurred much later, perhaps during the 2nd millennium BC. Another possibility is that the fulanis inherited those variants from a proper MAR_LN population that did not have any Levantine ancestry.
Btw you still haven't answered : How did R1b-V88 ended up in the Sahel so early ? And who are those light skinned populations that are depicted in the Sahara during the 4th millenium BC (they can't be berbers) ?
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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Then "Levantine" ancestry came second with pastoralism.
Why would we expect the European variant for milk consumption to prevail?
There are several possible scenarios : One possibility is a selection or bottleneck effect. Also if you pay attention you'll see that Berbers today, especially those in the southern regions, have very low Levantine ancestry. Therefore, it is possible that the introgression of North African ancestry occurred much later, perhaps during the 2nd millennium BC. Another possibility is that the fulanis inherited those variants from a proper MAR_LN population that did not have any Levantine ancestry.
What do you mean by selection bottleneck effect? Did the selection or bottleneck happen in Europe or in North Africa?
When and Where did the European haplotype −13910*T get to North Africa? And was the haplotype associated with pastoralists or milk drinkers in general from Europe?
quote: Btw you still haven't answered : How did R1b-V88 ended up in the Sahel so early ? And who are those light skinned populations that are depicted in the Sahara during the 4th millenium BC (they can't be berbers) ?
I ignored the question because it was irrelevant. I have spoken about V88 many times and even told you and your friend on biodiversity when and where it came from. read here, herehere... And there's likely more examples somewhere.
The people you refer to in the 3rd millenia BC, of the "Europoid type" likely have nothing to do with V88. Though I believe they came directly from Europe as well. Do you care to explain their relevance?
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: What do you mean by selection bottleneck effect? Did the selection or bottleneck happen in Europe or in North Africa?
When and Where did the European haplotype −13910*T get to North Africa? And was the haplotype associated with pastoralists or milk drinkers in general from Europe?
I'm simply proposing that the effect of genetic drift after a bottleneck event may explain why some of those variants are predominant in Fulanis (or simply through positive selection). Logically it could have occured in NA or the Sahel itself.
This particular haplotype might have been introduced to NA during the Middle/Late Neolithic period, and it is likely to have been associated with farmers who practiced dairying (at least in the beginning).
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: I ignored the question because it was irrelevant. I have spoken about V88 many times and even told you and your friend on biodiversity when and where it came from. read here, herehere... And there's likely more examples somewhere.
The people you refer to in the 3rd millenia BC, of the "Europoid type" likely have nothing to do with V88. Though I believe they came directly from Europe as well. Do you care to explain their relevance?
How is it irrelevant if you admit it came from Southern Europe ? Strangely it spread at the right moment when those early european farmers settled in North Africa and if those "europoid" people were european and present in the sahara why would a MAR_LN profile for some of those saharans be far-fetched ?
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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posted
Wouldn't the issue be one of timeframe? Since ancient North Africans did go into ancient Europe,the problems becomes one of when did ancient North Africans haplogroups/haplotypes exist solely in Europe and went extinct or stop existing in Africa.
Posts: 1123 | From: New York | Registered: Feb 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: What do you mean by selection bottleneck effect? Did the selection or bottleneck happen in Europe or in North Africa?
When and Where did the European haplotype −13910*T get to North Africa? And was the haplotype associated with pastoralists or milk drinkers in general from Europe?
I'm simply proposing that the effect of genetic drift after a bottleneck event may explain why some of those variants are predominant in Fulanis (or simply through positive selection). Logically it could have occured in NA or the Sahel itself.
This particular haplotype might have been introduced to NA during the Middle/Late Neolithic period, and it is likely to have been associated with farmers who practiced dairying (at least in the beginning).
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: I ignored the question because it was irrelevant. I have spoken about V88 many times and even told you and your friend on biodiversity when and where it came from. read here, herehere... And there's likely more examples somewhere.
The people you refer to in the 3rd millenia BC, of the "Europoid type" likely have nothing to do with V88. Though I believe they came directly from Europe as well. Do you care to explain their relevance?
How is it irrelevant if you admit it came from Southern Europe ? Strangely it spread at the right moment when those early european farmers settled in North Africa and if those "europoid" people were european and present in the sahara why would a MAR_LN profile for some of those saharans be far-fetched ?
Get it straight, check the dates... I didn't admit anything... I proposed it.
It's easy to just throw everything with similarities into one bubble. Mar_LN + V88 + T13910. But actually explaining how everything went down is what I'm asking for. There's a big difference between saying the Fulani were similar to Late Neolithic Maghrebis in ancient times VS there were some people related to Late_Neolithic Morroccans occupying the same spaces that the Ancestors of the Fulani did. Two different statements completely.
You mentioned Iheren for example... Prior to them Saharan Cattle culture existed with cultural elements that can be traced today to the Fulani and Tuareg of the Sahara and Sahel.
The paper in the OP elaborated that pastoralism was brought in the Late Neolithic by Levantine populations. ..which also predates the Iheren and related groups in the Sahel.
V88's introduction in Africa, likely also Predates the example you thrown out just by the coalescent dates and distribution alone.
What we have here is a story where in the middle neolithic we have Southern European agricultural populations possibly disseminating from the Maghreb, who has yet to show any evidence of having the derived haplotype (In ancient DNA), And later pastoralist from further East Forming a late Neolithic Maghrebi profile (as stated by the OP). This will ultimately be passed as the Ancient Saharan Genotype ultimately explaining the adoptions of the (post)Neolithic subsistence strategies with Eurasian backmigration.
It's going to get real confusing from here.. watch.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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It isn't going to get confusing because the African neolithic in the Sahara and Sahel along with Nile Valley predate the coastal North African neolithic. The only way it gets confusing is if one proposes that those Saharans and Sahelians weren't Africans and somehow were waiting for Eurasians to migrate across the Sahara to help them develop pastoralism and pottery. Which didnt happen.
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