posted
Then what is the point you were trying to make ? We both agree on the same thing.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
You finally get it breying donkey.
You only tried to contradict what I posted because I'm black even though you now see it is nothing but factual raw data intepretation
that once you clmed your racist arse down could see you did nothing but support what I already posted.
Shhhhuh
whooo boiiiiiiii
Your kind would have Franz Fanon turning over in his grave, heaven forbid. SMH SMH SMH
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: You finally get it breying donkey.
You only tried to contradict what I posted because I'm black even though you now see it is nothing but factual raw data intepretation
that once you clmed your racist arse down could see you did nothing but support what I already posted.
Shhhhuh
whooo boiiiiiiii
Your kind would have Franz Fanon turning over in his grave, heaven forbid. SMH SMH SMH
It has nothing to do with you being black; I'm just careful with people who might potentially support afrocentric claims (I have the same behavior with eurocentrists on platform like 4chan for example).
*** you are a self-admitted prejudiced, bigoted racist is what you are a typical northafrocentric militant fake aMazigh nationalist who hates and snap judges blacks w/o bothering to hear listen and digest what's actually being said because you have magic "potential afrocentric" detecting abilities that amount to nothing but your boss' hateful edict. If they're black they MUST be afrocentric --- attack!
[ 11. December 2021, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: Tukuler ]
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Afrocentric? Beur please, Afrocentric is all yall's code for black.
From my very start who couldn't see this ADMIXTURE squarely ranks 'Gaunches' (majority Tunisian Chenini exemplified K8) among the taMazight speakers?
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Doesn't my Loosdrecht REDUX delineate Canary WHG my radar scopings and rectangle concisely posit North Africans in a quadrant with Red Sea AfricArabians and likewise in a quadrant with Europeans?
I mean after all it's Loosdrecht's text and raw data. I just redesigned the look and added the color code boxing
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
What wrong with this Rodriquez-Varela ADMIXTURE REDUXed down to Mzab and YRI poles charting most to least YRI and most to least Mzab clines pending top down or bottoms up point of viewer?
Again I'm presenting 'Gaunches' as just another 'Berber', bibbah. How could anyone misconstrue this as against 'Berber' 'Gaunches'? How?
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: You finally get it breying donkey.
You only tried to contradict what I posted because I'm black even though you now see it is nothing but factual raw data intepretation
that once you clmed your racist arse down could see you did nothing but support what I already posted.
Shhhhuh
whooo boiiiiiiii
Your kind would have Franz Fanon turning over in his grave, heaven forbid. SMH SMH SMH
It has nothing to do with you being black; I'm just careful with people who might potentially support afrocentric claims (I have the same behavior with eurocentrists on platform like 4chan for example).
I'm ADOS and I'm not aware of any Afrocentric attacks against North Africans. Only thing I have gathered is some people think that there weren't any light skin Euro looking North Africans until foreigners came in and mixed with Black folks already there. If skeletal and genetics evident makes it clear "lighties" like yourself existed and it has nothing to do with admixture but environmental adaptation then I have no idea what you mean by Afrocentrism sense North Africans are Africans.
Posts: 1123 | From: New York | Registered: Feb 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Thereal: I'm ADOS and I'm not aware of any Afrocentric attacks against North Africans. Only thing I have gathered is some people think that there weren't any light skin Euro looking North Africans until foreigners came in and mixed with Black folks already there. If skeletal and genetics evident makes it clear "lighties" like yourself existed and it has nothing to do with admixture but environmental adaptation then I have no idea what you mean by Afrocentrism sense North Africans are Africans. [/QB]
Come on, attacks are done on a daily basis on every platform and it's not just a question of skin color; they claim that modern north africans are the product of arab invaders who later mixed with white slaves and that original indigenous north africans can only be found today among tuaregs or haratin. In the case of Egypt they claim that they are the product of all the foreign conquests (implied geneflow) so arabs, hyksos, greeks,romans, etc.
What's funny is that I literally have less middle eastern ancestry than italians/greeks and I'm very similar to the guanche samples we have so I wonder where all these arabs and white slaves went lol Honestly it's sad because let's be honest that's racism, they project their hatred of whites unto people who don't identify or view themselves as white (nor black) and can't handle the fact that you can be light skinned and indigenous african at the same time. They expect every african to look like what they perceive is "black" no matter genetics, history, environmental pressure/adaptation, etc
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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posted
From what I gather, that's true but that doesn't negate you and your peoples nativity to North Africa. If you're a historian,you should make that known the non-African foreigners to your land look similar to your group and when the mixing occurred,assuming it did in appreciable numbers,your population was less effected than other North African types.
Posts: 1123 | From: New York | Registered: Feb 2016
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posted
I honestly think that's simply your point of view because I've never met any afrocentrist that believes modern north africans are indigenous.
Imagine being north african with a passion for history and suddenly being constantly harassed by afro-americans (but in general blacks living in the west) on every platform. I open instagram and I see afro-americans commenting every post about egyptian art saying "fake" "forgery" "arabs" etc or page made by "moorish" americans claiming moroccans were black kings rulers of Europe...From time to time, I also met some smart and more serious afrocentrists but the level of dishonesty is just baffling and often end up argumenting with ad hominems saying I'm racist and despise blacks.
I personally try to be as neutral as possible and stick to facts if tomorrow a new study on egyptian mummies show them to have a primarly ssa profile similar to let's say nubians then be sure I'll gladly accept it.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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posted
The Black North Africans,sure but not some of the light skin one's.
I know some are recent Africans but not all,maybe I should've been a bit more clear in wording.
Posts: 1123 | From: New York | Registered: Feb 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Thereal: The Black North Africans,sure but not some of the light skin one's.
How would you know ? Since many were brought with the trans-saharan slave trade.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
REDUXes of Loosdrecht and Fregel PCAs illustrating raw data produces same analytic tool output though different investigators.
The only marked difference was their PC1 parametres. So I horizontal flipped Loosdrecht for viewer friendly comparison with Fregel. They are statistically identical.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Compare Loosdrecht's PCA, with PC1 flipped, to Fregel. Radar ID
Fregel's HOD PCA S6.3 plots • Taforalt closer to SSA than to Natufian • Natufian overlaying Neolithic Iran • Neolithic Iran overlayed by KEB • Taforalt closer to Luxmanda than to Natufian • Pemba 3X farther from Taforalt than Luxmanda is.
Consider the relative worth of PCA vs other analytic tools.
...that 3rd image is just a better quality pic of the mummy you previously posted as an example of an "indigenous" Canary Islander. I've been fooled before by badly lit pics, it shouldn't be used as evidence for phenotype of a population.
Also, quit editing people's posts. This forum is better than that, or at least I thought it was.
Posts: 116 | From: Birmingham, AL | Registered: Oct 2011
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Everybody's a critic But do they add anything of value to the thread?
Touche: You are better than that, or at least I thought you were.
Add something of value to the thread If you have a Canary mummy to post please do.
If you don't like me editing posts
YOU DON"T HAVE TO POST HERE
Post to New Member Intros forum if you don't want a moderator doing the job of forum direction. Or pick the Mod you like the best and post to their forum
In KEMET forum no one's getting away with posting melanophobia based ideologies unscathed.
You know what happens to blx @ sites ytes control when even they present college paper level posts the racists don't like?
I'll not be nobler than my peoples' enemy.
Anyone declaring my writings Afrocentric is obvious just an anti-black making biased assumptions like a black scholar = an Afrocentric
_________________________________
Coming up ... a barage of charts from Arauna's nrY report
Touche: You are better than that, or at least I thought you were.
Add something of value to the thread If you have a Canary mummy to post please do.
If you don't like me editing posts
YOU DON"T HAVE TO POST HERE
Post to New Member Intros forum if you don't want a moderator doing the job of forum direction. Or pick the Mod you like the best and post to their forum
In KEMET forum no one's getting away with posting melanophobia based ideologies unscathed.
You know what happens to blx @ sites ytes control when even they present college paper level posts the racists don't like?
I'll not be nobler than my peoples' enemy.
Anyone declaring my writings Afrocentric is obvious just an anti-black making biased assumptions like a black scholar = an Afrocentric
_________________________________
Coming up ... a barage of charts from Arauna's nrY report
Editing is fine when it's about keeping the peace, like deleting insults. It is not okay to edit a person post just because they are saying something you don't like. What is the point of a discussion if the other side can't express their point of view?
Posts: 116 | From: Birmingham, AL | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Nobody is deleting what they don't like. Don't accuse me of that again. Don't act like I ain't explain it
quote:In KEMET forum no one's getting away with posting melanophobia based ideologies unscathed.
and you wanna turn around and vex me but got squat to say to the poster posting melanophobia?
I'm not allowing any enemies access to voice what they please. Blx are axed & edited @ yte sites just for presenting factual infos. I ain't allowing no ruckus or enemies call themselves putting the ignorant negroes in their place.
Fact is you cannot even join an Amazigh militant/nationalist forum.
I'm not an editor I'm the moderator of this forum I have a vision for this forum just as the other mods direct theirs No doormat here
You got something to say on the topic or not?
if not
PLEASE DO NOT REPLY HERE PLEASE GO OPEN A NEW THREAD OF YOUR OWN AND LET THIS ONE PROCEED THANK YOU
posted
Its funny because as I told Antas in the N. African genetic test thread that most here probaly don't disagree with his general premise(That Coastal North Africans/Berbers are genrally a tawny Light skinned people and have been for thousands of years) Yet he stays in some delusional paranoia of "Afrocentrism" and by Afrocentrism he means the idea that other parts of North Africa besides the coast had native dark skinned so called black people in in that had nothing to do with slaves. Or by Afrocentrism the idea that the blubery lipped coal black African "Negro" is not the only representative of a black African...
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: You finally get it breying donkey.
You only tried to contradict what I posted because I'm black even though you now see it is nothing but factual raw data intepretation
that once you clmed your racist arse down could see you did nothing but support what I already posted.
Shhhhuh
whooo boiiiiiiii
Your kind would have Franz Fanon turning over in his grave, heaven forbid. SMH SMH SMH
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Oh please, stop being a victim, stop pretending like the people who make these claims are some sort of over arching presence with any iota of clout within historical circles. Anyone making these claims are almost immediatly banned and mocked on any historical forum/website.
Hell anyone claiming the truth of a native black origin of various North African population outside the Coastal Megreb is almost banned as well.
Honestly I don't understand the obsession with your people by some, it must have to do with the romanticism of Orientalist and Islam IMO because no one seems to give a damn about the Christian era of North Africa(Which IMO the Berbers produced WAY better Scholarship)
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: I'm ADOS and I'm not aware of any Afrocentric attacks against North Africans. Only thing I have gathered is some people think that there weren't any light skin Euro looking North Africans until foreigners came in and mixed with Black folks already there. If skeletal and genetics evident makes it clear "lighties" like yourself existed and it has nothing to do with admixture but environmental adaptation then I have no idea what you mean by Afrocentrism sense North Africans are Africans.
Come on, attacks are done on a daily basis on every platform and it's not just a question of skin color; they claim that modern north africans are the product of arab invaders who later mixed with white slaves and that original indigenous north africans can only be found today among tuaregs or haratin. In the case of Egypt they claim that they are the product of all the foreign conquests (implied geneflow) so arabs, hyksos, greeks,romans, etc.
What's funny is that I literally have less middle eastern ancestry than italians/greeks and I'm very similar to the guanche samples we have so I wonder where all these arabs and white slaves went lol Honestly it's sad because let's be honest that's racism, they project their hatred of whites unto people who don't identify or view themselves as white (nor black) and can't handle the fact that you can be light skinned and indigenous african at the same time. They expect every african to look like what they perceive is "black" no matter genetics, history, environmental pressure/adaptation, etc [/QB]
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Its funny because as I told Antas in the N. African genetic test thread that most here probaly don't disagree with his general premise(That Coastal North Africans/Berbers are genrally a tawny Light skinned people and have been for thousands of years) Yet he stays in some delusional paranoia of "Afrocentrism" and by Afrocentrism he means the idea that other parts of North Africa besides the coast had native dark skinned so called black people in in that had nothing to do with slaves. Or by Afrocentrism the idea that the blubery lipped coal black African "Negro" is not the only representative of a black African...
These are simply assumptions you make about me ; Why do you pretend most members here don't believe ancient north africans from the atlantic to egypt were black and view the modern ones as "miscegenated" "admixed" ?
I've actually said many times that black skinned populations have always been indigenous to many parts of the Sahara but the problem is that afrocentrists always overestimate their numbers and influence and forgot that many slaves were also sent to saharan oasis. If you tell me Tebu are indigenous I will 100% Agree but if you start to tell me the blacks from zagora in morocco are indigenous then I'll quickly disagree.
As for "negro" being the only representative of black african, that's a conflict between how americans perceive blackness and how most people in the world perceive it. Unlike afrocentrists, I acknowledge the diversity that exist in Africa. I do not view you regular ethiopian and nigerian as simply "black men" : the ethiopian has different features, different genetic background, different history and culture. To me someone like Barack Obama isn't "black" but mixed half white half black. In america, I doubt you have the opportunity to often meet west/central africans meanwhile here my own neighbours are west african and I live alongside these people on a daily basis so I know what they look like and they don't look like your Will Smith or Rihanna that's why I think you have a wrong perception on how africans in general look.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] Oh please, stop being a victim, stop pretending like the people who make these claims are some sort of over arching presence with any iota of clout within historical circles. Anyone making these claims are almost immediatly banned and mocked on any historical forum/website.
Hell anyone claiming the truth of a native black origin of various North African population outside the Coastal Megreb is almost banned as well.
Honestly I don't understand the obsession with your people by some, it must have to do with the romanticism of Orientalist and Islam IMO because no one seems to give a damn about the Christian era of North Africa(Which IMO the Berbers produced WAY better Scholarship)
You're saying this because you don't really experience it. Meanwhile I see it everyday and no these people aren't only being mocked, they are actually taken very seriously by these liberal whites that's why we end up with this :
black hannibal
Black numidian
Moorish princess and guard
etc etc
and I suppose it will be worse in the upcoming years/decades with all this pc and woke/cancel culture.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Have you searched ES for the varied opinions on Hannibaal? No, you know you haven't. Or if you did it was myopic ignoring what you can't turn into a polemic.
I'm tired of these unnamed Afrocentrics of yours especially when you're an Afrocentric yourself.
Children blame and fear the Boogeyman Adults know there's no such thing yet use the Boogeyman to quell children.
Your unnamed Afrocentrics are a boogeyman. Oops! On go the lights
From this point forward you must name the individuals you claim are doing dirty deeds against poor blameless NW Afrs. NW Afr, a place where native born generational black citizens don't have equal rights, no whites invested in seeing them become full citizens and as late as the 1970s held some blx in domestic household slavery.
Because you claim you are African I'm interested in your voice but only when you're rational. You can help round out the forum and I know it'll take a while to shift your gears from a bigot's wide accusations to critical analytical postings without sacrificing any pride and passion in your Berberhood (you are no Amazigh militant but some of your European biased ethnocentricity is like theirs).
Now don't forget NO MORE UNNAMED "AFROCENTRIC" PUNCHING BAGS
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Africa's been a Two Colour Continent throughout historic times. My guess? Ultimately of outside origins U6 mommies were lighter than already residing Aterians who by climatology probably weren't much dark.
At least by the African Humid Period, when the West African Monsoon belt moved north to green the Sahra, art shows color 'dichotomy' regardless of facial profile or hair.
By the New Kingdom era creamy coloured Libyans appear in the art, indisputably proving skin tones in Mediterranean coastal Africa included near/off white along with 'nally-yally' complexions.
As late as Vandal times, one record speaks of a white skinned ethny south of black Mauretania. An earlier writer speaks of "Ethiopians" on the Atlantic coast clear north to "Dyris" ie the Sous and the Adrar.
The history of importing black people from far to the south does not override the fact of indigenee Sahra blx and not just underclass native south and central West Sahra Haratin but the remnants of pre and north West Sahra blx of Greco-Latin notice.
I use West Sahra since I think the focus is west of Tibesti though the thread title, knowingly or not, invokes Brigg's opinion of the Tibbu.
posted
If what they're are bellyaching about are portrayals of ancient Egyptians, Carthaginians, Numidians, and Moors as Black, it's clear to me that their agenda is erasing or marginalizing any presence of Black people in the most historiographically prestigious North African cultures. It's not enough for them that lighter-skinned people were present anywhere in ancient North Africa as well. What they want is for those people to be dominant in the North African cultures they want to claim for themselves. It's fundamentally motivated by anti-Blackness more than anything else.
To quote my own post in another thread...
quote:The Carthaginian explorer Hanno the Navigator mentions "hostile Aethiopians" living in the North African mountains upstream of the Lixos river (either the Draa or Loukkos in Morocco) in the sixth century BC. We also have Procopius of Caesarea in 550 AD describing both "black- [or dark-?]skinned" Mauretanii coexisting with other people who were "white in body and very fair-haired" in the region. Northwest Africans in classical antiquity seem to have been no less phenotypically diverse, and maybe even moreso, than they are today.
Also, we have a Roman senator named Silius Italicus describing Numidians as "black" here (though I admittedly don't know what the original Latin word was).
posted
@Brandon P it's not anti-Blackness; that would be like chinese refusing their ancestors to be depicted as indians or arabs ...it's simply common sense. Also there is the historical accuracy that needs to be respected.
Meanwhile afro-americans claiming to be israelites, egyptians, moors, etc and at the same time denying or downplaying their west african roots what does this have to be called ? If we're against such appropriation we're automatically anti-black ?
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
| IP: Logged |
posted
OMG cry me a river, Like seriously you point to a few handful of examples of Black Hannibal, big deal. Its Hollywood, its fantasy and if anything more people bitched about the Black Hannibal than celebrated it.
Also stop pretending like there were no blacks in the Moors or in Numidia. And again your people inhabit the Coastal fringe of the Coastal Magreb, there's Berbers and Sahrans who are native to North Africa who are darker skinned, no matter how much you try to atribute them to slavery. Your own people call some of the Native Oasis dewllers Ganaw, correct, so then whats the big deal....There blacks native to North Africa along with your people.
As far as Andalus and Numidia...I honestly don't care about either of those and again its obsession by Afrocentrists is baffling, considering the Berbers were 2nd class citizens until the Tafia and Almoravd/Almohad periods, The Arab elite preferrng to marry White European slaves to the point they had to dye their Ginger/Blond hair black to seem more authentcally Arab. Why any Afrocentrist of even Berbercentrist would claim Andalucia is beyond bizzare, but again Orentalist Islamo-fantasy is some how appealling to a lot people
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] Oh please, stop being a victim, stop pretending like the people who make these claims are some sort of over arching presence with any iota of clout within historical circles. Anyone making these claims are almost immediatly banned and mocked on any historical forum/website.
Hell anyone claiming the truth of a native black origin of various North African population outside the Coastal Megreb is almost banned as well.
Honestly I don't understand the obsession with your people by some, it must have to do with the romanticism of Orientalist and Islam IMO because no one seems to give a damn about the Christian era of North Africa(Which IMO the Berbers produced WAY better Scholarship)
You're saying this because you don't really experience it. Meanwhile I see it everyday and no these people aren't only being mocked, they are actually taken very seriously by these liberal whites that's why we end up with this :
black hannibal
Black numidian
Moorish princess and guard
etc etc
and I suppose it will be worse in the upcoming years/decades with all this pc and woke/cancel culture.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
The Funny thing is NOT ONE mainstream Movie on Egypt, except the Prince of Egypt, a f-king Cartoon has EVER depicted Egyptians looking as the people who in habit Upper Egypt and Northern Sudan, people Like Antas love to spam them to contrast them from the Blubbery lipped True Negro, but how odd there is never an outrage when Russians and Englishmen are cast as Egyptians, rather than the Upper Egyptians who they love to spam in their Neo "Egyptians were Hamite" tactics.
The people of Upper Egypt and Ta-Seti have been disrespected for Hundreds of years, literally denied they created the same monuments that match their features, but they want to f-king bitch about ONE f-king portrayal of a sorry ass Hannibal...Get the f-k out of here with that BS.
Cry me a god damn river
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] OMG cry me a river, Like seriously you point to a few handful of examples of Black Hannibal, big deal. Its Hollywood, its fantasy and if anything more people bitched about the Black Hannibal than celebrated it.
Also stop pretending like there were no blacks in the Moors or in Numidia. And again your people inhabit the Coastal fringe of the Coastal Magreb, there's Berbers and Sahrans who are native to North Africa who are darker skinned, no matter how much you try to atribute them to slavery. Your own people call some of the Native Oasis dewllers Ganaw, correct, so then whats the big deal....There blacks native to North Africa along with your people.
As far as Andalus and Numidia...I honestly don't care about either of those and again its obsession by Afrocentrists is baffling, considering the Berbers were 2nd class citizens until the Tafia and Almoravd/Almohad periods, The Arab elite preferrng to marry White European slaves to the point they had to dye their Ginger/Blond hair black to seem more authentcally Arab. Why any Afrocentrist of even Berbercentrist would claim Andalucia is beyond bizzare, but again Orentalist Islamo-fantasy is some how appealling to a lot people
No one is crying or playing the victim here, I'm just telling you how it is and that you clearly underestimate its influence. That some eurocentrists/white racists make fun with the "we wuz" thing doesn't mean much, what matters is when you see pages getting thousands of subscribers, Famous TV shows like for example "vikings" which depicted most andalusians as nigerian looking, etc this is desinformation plain and simple. That's why north africans fond of history are very sensitive and careful with all of this.
Also why you guys constantly bring the sahara and its people while they don't even make 0.1% of North Africa's population same in ancient times ? I never denied that there were indigenous dark skinned people in the Sahara but not all blacks in North africa are indigenous nor were they native to the coastal regions where most north africans live.
And berbers have all the rights to "obsess" over al andalus since they formed the bulk of the invasion force, later represented the largest minority and settled in many parts of Iberia, played key role in its political and social history, almohad/almoravids/zirid, etc That's why many medieval andalusian samples end up being mixed with north african ancestry (much more than current iberians).
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: The Funny thing is NOT ONE mainstream Movie on Egypt, except the Prince of Egypt, a f-king Cartoon has EVER depicted Egyptians looking as the people who in habit Upper Egypt and Northern Sudan, people Like Antas love to spam them to contrast them from the Blubbery lipped True Negro, but how odd there is never an outrage when Russians and Englishmen are cast as Egyptians, rather than the Upper Egyptians who they love to spam in their Neo "Egyptians were Hamite" tactics.
The people of Upper Egypt and Ta-Seti have been disrespected for Hundreds of years, literally denied they created the same monuments that match their features, but they want to f-king bitch about ONE f-king portrayal of a sorry ass Hannibal...Get the f-k out of here with that BS.
Cry me a god damn river
Stop making assumptions like that, I also get pissed by it. I remember when I saw Exodus by ridley Scott the guy really went too far using NW european actors to play egyptian characters...
He only used one iraqi actor that looks like an egyptian :
but they do the same with roman/greek history using englo/wasp actor to play mediterranean figures.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: These are simply assumptions you make about me ; Why do you pretend most members here don't believe ancient north africans from the atlantic to egypt were black and view the modern ones as "miscegenated" "admixed" ?
Who are these members Antas, other than a fringe most people agree with you, opinions differ but I doubt anyone consider North Africans as miscegenated considering the Genetic and pictorial evidence...
quote:I've actually said many times that black skinned populations have always been indigenous to many parts of the Sahara but the problem is that afrocentrists always overestimate their numbers and influence and forgot that many slaves were also sent to saharan oasis. If you tell me Tebu are indigenous I will 100% Agree but if you start to tell me the blacks from zagora in morocco are indigenous then I'll quickly disagree.
Ok, I guess. Then you probably agree with majority of the people here..at least with me. No one is denying that slavery was an issue but its really sus that everytime a black North african is mentioned slavery is always followed as an explation, that's really the main problem.
quote:As for "negro" being the only representative of black african, that's a conflict between how americans perceive blackness and how most people in the world perceive it. Unlike afrocentrists, I acknowledge the diversity that exist in Africa. I do not view you regular ethiopian and nigerian as simply "black men" : the ethiopian has different features, different genetic background, different history and culture. To me someone like Barack Obama isn't "black" but mixed half white half black. In america, I doubt you have the opportunity to often meet west/central africans meanwhile here my own neighbours are west african and I live alongside these people on a daily basis so I know what they look like and they don't look like your Will Smith or Rihanna that's why I think you have a wrong perception on how africans in general look.
Oh please, no one is saying that a West African is the Same as an Ethiopian, thats just gas lighting people like you try to employ. No other people have to defend that they created the monuments in their own continent except Africans, No one claims that a Daddy Kaka-zoid came in and created the Chinese civilization, or that a Wandering Mongoloid came in and Created Rome, but its Afrocentrism to say the Ethiopians that created Axum were the same god damn Ethiopians in Ethiopia today. Its Afrocentrism to say the same people still in Upper Egyptian as Sudan are the same people in Upper Egypt and Ta-Seti that created Dynastic Egyptian culture.
The fact is we at least at ES have been saying that very thing for years, yet we were attacked, mocked and equated with the most fringe members of our forum.
Also, I know and have interacted with MANY Africans, and let me tell you, they are some of the most Pro Pan Africanist Ive ever met, I barely know any ADOS who are Pan-African, the very father of f-king Afrcentrism was a god damn African so stop trying to equate that sh#t with us.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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I ask you where are the depictions of the Egyptians you all suddenly love to spam as Hamites, and you post an Iraqi and have the nerve to whine about a black Hannibal.
I get it though, there ARE'NT any Images you can use of the Egyptians you spam as Hamites in any depiction of Egypt except a f-king cartoon. The best you got is an Iraqi who would have been depicted being trampled under the hooves of the Suten's War Chariot.
Hundreds of years of disrespect, the decendants of the very people who wrote the last Mdu-Ntr on the walls of Kemet are now told its "Afrocentrism" to equate them with that Civilization.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: The Funny thing is NOT ONE mainstream Movie on Egypt, except the Prince of Egypt, a f-king Cartoon has EVER depicted Egyptians looking as the people who in habit Upper Egypt and Northern Sudan, people Like Antas love to spam them to contrast them from the Blubbery lipped True Negro, but how odd there is never an outrage when Russians and Englishmen are cast as Egyptians, rather than the Upper Egyptians who they love to spam in their Neo "Egyptians were Hamite" tactics.
The people of Upper Egypt and Ta-Seti have been disrespected for Hundreds of years, literally denied they created the same monuments that match their features, but they want to f-king bitch about ONE f-king portrayal of a sorry ass Hannibal...Get the f-k out of here with that BS.
Cry me a god damn river
Stop making assumptions like that, I also get pissed by it. I remember when I saw Exodus by ridley Scott the guy really went too far using NW european actors to play egyptian characters...
He only used one iraqi actor that looks like an egyptian :
but they do the same with roman/greek history using englo/wasp actor to play mediterranean figures.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Who are these members Antas, other than a fringe most people agree with you, opinions differ but I doubt anyone consider North Africans as miscegenated considering the Genetic and pictorial evidence...
Tukuler called us "miscegenated" and brought "phoenician, roman, arabs, french, spaniards,etc", Brandon P like to depict my ancestors as west african looking and imply I'm anti-black for not accepting his drawings, Djehuti claims we became light-skinned because of white slaves, and I think I don't even have to mention members like clyde winters or big O ...lol
But that's nothing compared to what I see on internet ...just look for instance at the page "Mr. Imhotep". Unfortunately I see the same trend among blacks who live in Europe, the comment section of every damn documentary on egypt is filled with blacks complaining about how modern egyptians have nothing to do with the ancient ones, that whites keep whitewashing the AEs, etc
Anyway I'm not "crying" but I'm just baffled that you haven't see it.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Ok, I guess. Then you probably agree with majority of the people here..at least with me. No one is denying that slavery was an issue but its really sus that everytime a black North african is mentioned slavery is always followed as an explation, that's really the main problem.
The problem and as pointed out by scholars before, is that it's really difficult to know who is indigenous and who isn't since many of these indigenous black communities absorbed black slaves. The best way would maybe be by looking at their genetic results I've seen tunisian blacks who had lots of west african ancestry and low IBM and EEF meanwhile I've seen moroccan blacks having important amount of IBM ancestry at the same level as "white" berbers which is very interesting.
Also many members here get furious everytime I mention "slave" as if the trans-saharan slave trade never happened and they never want to question the origin of these black north africans even though for instance these blacks themselves claims to be bambara/hausa (I have a video about it)
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Oh please, no one is saying that a West African is the Same as an Ethiopian, thats just gas lighting people like you try to employ. No other people have to defend that they created the monuments in their own continent except Africans, No one claims that a Daddy Kaka-zoid came in and created the Chinese civilization, or that a Wandering Mongoloid came in and Created Rome, but its Afrocentrism to say the Ethiopians that created Axum were the same god damn Ethiopians in Ethiopia today. Its Afrocentrism to say the same people still in Upper Egyptian as Sudan are the same people in Upper Egypt and Ta-Seti that created Dynastic Egyptian culture.
The fact is we at least at ES have been saying that very thing for years, yet we were attacked, mocked and equated with the most fringe members of our forum.
Also, I know and have interacted with MANY Africans, and let me tell you, they are some of the most Pro Pan Africanist Ive ever met, I barely know any ADOS who are Pan-African, the very father of f-king Afrcentrism was a god damn African so stop trying to equate that sh#t with us. [/QB]
But that's exactly what I defend : that modern upper egyptians and nubians aren't much different from their ancestors (same for ethiopians) and I disagree about what you say is seen as afrocentrist.
Afrocentrism is to say "north africans were black, the modern ones are miscegenated/invaders" " egyptians are arabs who have nothing to do with the ancient ones" "africa is a black continent" "ancient israelites were black" " natufians were black africans" ...etc etc
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] I ask you where are the depictions of the Egyptians you all suddenly love to spam as Hamites, and you post an Iraqi and have the nerve to whine about a black Hannibal.
I get it though, there ARE'NT any Images you can use of the Egyptians you spam as Hamites in any depiction of Egypt except a f-king cartoon. The best you got is an Iraqi who would have been depicted being trampled under the hooves of the Suten's War Chariot.
Hundreds of years of disrespect, the decendants of the very people who wrote the last Mdu-Ntr on the walls of Kemet are now told its "Afrocentrism" to equate them with that Civilization.
What do you mean by me spamming hamites ?? And I posted this iraqi because he looked somewhat egyptian unlike the rest of the cast; the same way I wouldn't get pissed if they use saudi or iranian actors to play my ancestors as long as they look somewhat like us.
Black hannibal is something more extreme since he looks nothing like what we can see in modern or ancient north africa ...the same way it would be ridiculous to use a scandinavian actor to play an indian or ethiopian figure.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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This makes no sense,you're describing a region. Bantu speakers live throughout Africa and aren't necessarily defined by a look as some Bantu speakers can have thin facial features and similar to Ethiopians and Somalis.
west african lookingPosts: 1123 | From: New York | Registered: Feb 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: Tukuler called us "miscegenated" and brought "phoenician, roman, arabs, french, spaniards,etc", Brandon P like to depict my ancestors as west african looking and imply I'm anti-black for not accepting his drawings, Djehuti claims we became light-skinned because of white slaves, and I think I don't even have to mention members like clyde winters or big O ...lol
I can't really speak for anyone but myself, but from interacting with these same people you mention except Clyde, I don't think you and they disagree with your general thesis, the Coastal North Africans are native and authentic Berbers. Again I can't speak for anyone else.
quote:But that's nothing compared to what I see on internet ...just look for instance at the page "Mr. Imhotep". Unfortunately I see the same trend among blacks who live in Europe, the comment section of every damn documentary on egypt is filled with blacks complaining about how modern egyptians have nothing to do with the ancient ones, that whites keep whitewashing the AEs, etc
Anyway I'm not "crying" but I'm just baffled that you haven't see it.
Where did I say I have'nt seen it? It is probelmatics, but tbh Most of these people don't really understand what Modern Egyptians outside the Cairans look like so they're just venting. I don't get it, an Englishman can study Greek Civilization and see himself in it as inspiration but an African American can't do the same with Egypt.
quote:he problem and as pointed out by scholars before, is that it's really difficult to know who is indigenous and who isn't since many of these indigenous black communities absorbed black slaves. The best way would maybe be by looking at their genetic results I've seen tunisian blacks who had lots of west african ancestry and low IBM and EEF meanwhile I've seen moroccan blacks having important amount of IBM ancestry at the same level as "white" berbers which is very interesting.
I agree 100%, It is very difficult to really put African esp. North African history/ancestry into some neat box. Its so nuanced because you have what at least 3-4 different ideals of race/class/ethnicity, (Berber, West African, Islamic/Arab and European) You have one state like Maritania or Morocco where the Gnawa are slaves then you have the same word for native free inhabitants of the Oasis, You have Dark Skinned "White Moors" owning "Black Moors" who are a shade darker than them as slaves, You have the elite Moroccans who were obviously mixed with darker skinned Africans in photos ruling over majority Tawny skinned population, its really complicated.
quote:Also many members here get furious everytime I mention "slave" as if the trans-saharan slave trade never happened and they never want to question the origin of these black north africans even though for instance these blacks themselves claims to be bambara/hausa (I have a video about it)
I think its because almost every time anything of blacks is mentioned historically its atributed to slavery. You can't blame people for being upset when that is the reality.
No one mentions slavery when discussing the white population is Andalus, there were arguably more White Saqalibba slaves in Andalus than African, yet this is never mentioned or discussed.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Thereal: This makes no sense,you're describing a region. Bantu speakers live throughout Africa and aren't necessarily defined by a look as some Bantu speakers can have thin facial features and similar to Ethiopians and Somalis.
west african looking
I meant people who currently live in West Africa not specifically "bantus" and as far as I know only fulanis have thin facial features in this area thanks to their north african admixture.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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I do think North African history is ignored and the people are'nt represented, also it is dis-service that they are not seen as authentically African. That said I think the documentary with Zanib Badawi did a good job covering North African history
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: I can't really speak for anyone but myself, but from interacting with these same people you mention except Clyde, I don't think you and they disagree with your general thesis, the Coastal North Africans are native and authentic Berbers. Again I can't speak for anyone else.
Nice then we both agree with each other
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Where did I say I have'nt seen it? It is probelmatics, but tbh Most of these people don't really understand what Modern Egyptians outside the Cairans look like so they're just venting. I don't get it, an Englishman can study Greek Civilization and see himself in it as inspiration but an African American can't do the same with Egypt.
Actually I've seen them even rejecting these upper egyptian fellahin/baladi saying they "look arab". These people don't want the truth, they simply want ancient egyptian to be like them to look like your regular afro-american or congolese in France in order for them to claim ancient egypt as a "black" achievement mother of all civilisation...no offense to anyone here but it obviously stems from their inner complexes.
I've never seen an englisman seeing himself in it except maybe among these mad eurocentrists who claims ancient greeks were more "nordic" looking than the modern ones but this is a tiny and ridiculous minority of people. In general english/american scholars when studying ancient greece don't view it as the expression of their ancestors achievement but even if they did it's less problematic than with afro-americans because ancient greece actually played a key role in the formation of the modern western world and genetically/physically greeks aren't that different from your regular englo.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: I agree 100%, It is very difficult to really put African esp. North African history/ancestry into some neat box. Its so nuanced because you have what at least 3-4 different ideals of race/class/ethnicity, (Berber, West African, Islamic/Arab and European) You have one state like Maritania or Morocco where the Gnawa are slaves then you have the same word for native free inhabitants of the Oasis, You have Dark Skinned "White Moors" owning "Black Moors" who are a shade darker than them as slaves, You have the elite Moroccans who were obviously mixed with darker skinned Africans in photos ruling over majority Tawny skinned population, its really complicated.
Exactly but when I acknowledge this, people here think I'm doing this to further perpetuate the image of the "negro slave" and that I'm "melanophobic"/anti-black
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: I think its because almost every time anything of blacks is mentioned historically its atributed to slavery. You can't blame people for being upset when that is the reality.
No one mentions slavery when discussing the white population is Andalus, there were arguably more White Saqalibba slaves in Andalus than African, yet this is never mentioned or discussed. [/QB]
I'm totally aware of this but what can I do ? We're talking about historical datas, I can't lie or twist them because it might hurt some people. I totally understand their anger regarding this but it's not a reason for them to blatantly lie about our history or the trans-saharan slave trade. There are legit people who told me that the barbary slave trade brought more slaves than the trans-saharan one (I'm not joking).
and actually afrocentrists talked about saqaliba but to reinforce their narrative by implying that we got bleached by them...
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: I do think North African history is ignored and the people are'nt represented, also it is dis-service that they are not seen as authentically African. That said I think the documentary with Zanib Badawi did a good job covering North African history
Even in the genetic field it's ignored lol but yes overall it was a good documentary
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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I remember seeing some of this and didn't finish it. Already in the first 6 minutes there are a couple of problems,Zanib Badawi describe the the Caspian as tall,with Mediterranean looks and African features. North Africa is on the African side of the Mediterranean and she talks about the region be a mix of European,Asians andArabs. To a Arab is cultural and they are Asian or Africans depending how you want to group them.
Posts: 1123 | From: New York | Registered: Feb 2016
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quote:I can't really speak for anyone but myself, but from interacting with these same people you mention except Clyde, I don't think you and they disagree with your general thesis, the Coastal North Africans are native and authentic Berbers. Again I can't speak for anyone else.
It's not even like it's extremely difficult to find modern depictions of ancient and medieval North Africans that look "non-Black".
I've even drawn a few lighter-skinned North Africans myself on occasion. Like the dude on the left of this piece below:
And yet these online "Amazigh nationalists" will go berserk and harass any artist like me who depicts anyone from ancient or medieval North Africa as Black. Like it was such a fucking crime to represent a little-acknowledged Black presence in the Maghreb in art! It's like an artist being harassed by racist White people for drawing pictures of Native Americans instead of White Americans.
I don't have a problem with there being some lighter-skinned people of Iberian origin along the coast of northwestern Africa even before Punic times. I just don't think they were the only people there, or even necessarily predominant throughout the region in all periods, and they certainly wouldn't have been the aboriginal inhabitants or even the earliest Afroasiatic speakers in the area.
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: I remember seeing some of this and didn't finish it. Already in the first 6 minutes there are a couple of problems,Zanib Badawi describe the the Caspian as tall,with Mediterranean looks and African features. North Africa is on the African side of the Mediterranean and she talks about the region be a mix of European,Asians andArabs. To a Arab is cultural and they are Asian or Africans depending how you want to group them.
People in general don't have much knowledge about genetics let alone forensic anthropology and such documentaries are made for general public so I won't be bothered by a few details.
As for capsians they were actually described as proto-mediterraneans in most studies regarding them so she's quite right on this.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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And yet these online "Amazigh nationalists" will go berserk and harass any artist like me who depicts anyone from ancient or medieval North Africa as Black. Like it was such a fucking crime to represent a little-acknowledged Black presence in the Maghreb in art! It's like an artist being harassed by racist White people for drawing pictures of Native Americans instead of White Americans.
I don't have a problem with there being some lighter-skinned people of Iberian origin along the coast of northwestern Africa even before Punic times. I just don't think they were the only people there, or even necessarily predominant throughout the region in all periods, and they certainly wouldn't have been the aboriginal inhabitants or even the earliest Afroasiatic speakers in the area. [/QB]
You show no respect to north africans. You might be "anti-arab" like many europeans and it's very common for white americans to always depict north africans as black, you want to erase us it seems.
As for the rest these are your opinions and none are supported by the current data we have.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: You show no respect to north africans. You might be "anti-arab" like many europeans and it's very common for white americans to always depict north africans as black, you want to erase us it seems.
I don't see myself as anti-Arab. I could never hate anyone simply because of their ethnicity or nationality, and there is beauty in all cultures. Furthermore, I'm actually very much against the marginalization and bigotry Arabs and many other MENA people (as well as Muslims in general) face in Western nations, as well as the oppression the Palestinians are suffering at the hands of the Israelis.
A few years back, I even got into trouble with some posters here for calling them out on bigoted things they were saying about Arabs and other MENA people. Sure, some of that invective was retaliatory against the racism certain North Africans have directed towards Black people throughout this forum's history, but I'm not one to think that it's OK to be racist against a group of people simply because a certain subgroup of those people are racist themselves (in my eyes, that's like saying it's OK to be racist against Black people in response to Black people acting racist towards East Asians).
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: You show no respect to north africans. You might be "anti-arab" like many europeans and it's very common for white americans to always depict north africans as black, you want to erase us it seems.
I don't see myself as anti-Arab. I could never hate anyone simply because of their ethnicity or nationality, and there is beauty in all cultures. Furthermore, I'm actually very much against the marginalization and bigotry Arabs and many other MENA people (as well as Muslims in general) face in Western nations, as well as the oppression the Palestinians are suffering at the hands of the Israelis.
A few years back, I even got into trouble with some posters here for calling them out on bigoted things they were saying about Arabs and other MENA people. Sure, some of that invective was retaliatory against the racism certain North Africans have directed towards Black people throughout this forum's history, but I'm not one to think that it's OK to be racist against a group of people simply because a certain subgroup of those people are racist themselves (in my eyes, that's like saying it's OK to be racist against Black people in response to Black people acting racist towards East Asians).
Yes ok but your anti-racism shouldn't push you to erase a people to the benefit of another one nor should it lead you to make assumptions and twist the scientific datas. Obviously people will get pissed if you depict their ancestors as something very different from what they are supposed to be, that's basic human reaction. What's worse is that you consider such reactions as "anti-blackness" as if our ancestors could only be depicted as blacks or else we're racist.
Instead of spending years drawing about north african figures why don't you draw more west/central or east african figures from the axumite empire, ghana empire, ife civilisation, great zimbabwe, kingdom of Meroe, etc something your public can relate to and try to accept the diversity that exist in Africa instead of portraying very different populations with the same type of features.
What I've never understood is that you acknowledge that the datas show we're indigenous and similar to the ancient samples and yet you keep depicting us as if we were nigerians or congolese ?? That's why I think your behaviour is suspicious and might be linked to some kind of hatred for MENA people something very common among europeans/white folks. These "amazigh nationalists" will show you more respect if you respect them in return and depict their ancestors as they should look.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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You implied I was exaggerating just Look what I found, this is what they teach in the UK :
Their guilt towards blacks is so big they go as far as erasing us to impose their political propaganda...
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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NUMI´DIA the central tract of country on the N. coast of Africa, which forms the largest portion of the country now occupied by the French, and called Algeria or Algérie. I. Name, Limits, and Inhiabitants.
The continuous system of highlands, which extends along the coast of the Mediterranean, was in the earliest period occupied by a race of people consisting of many tribes, of whom, the Berbers of the Algerine territories, or the Kabyles or Quabaîly, as they are called by the inhabitants of the cities, are the representatives. These peoples, speaking a language which was once spoken from the Fortunate Islands in the W. to the Cataracts of the Nile, and which still explains many names in ancient African topography, were called by the Romans Eth. Numidae, and embracing tribes of quite different characters, whites as well as blacks (though not negroes), a proper name, but a common (Strab. ii. p.131, xvii. pp. 833, 837.) Afterwards Numida and Numidia Ptol. 4.3; Pomp. Mela, 1.6; Plin. Nat. 5.2, 6.39) became the name of the nation and the country. Sometimes they were called MAURUSII NUMIDAE , Appian, App. BC 2.44), while the later writers always speak of them under the general name of MAUSI (Amm. Marc. 29.5; Procop. B. V. 2.4.) The most powerful among these tribes were the MASSYLI Plb. 3.44; Strab. ii. p.131, xvii. p. 829; Dionys. A. R. 187; Plb. 7.19; Massyli, Sil. Ital. 16.170; Massyla gens, Liv. 24.48), whose territories extended from the river Ampsaga to Tretum Prom. (Seba Rûs); and the
"However, not all black Africans came from Egypt; Ammianus also mentions, in passing, that tribes of Aethiopi lived near Auzia in the province of Mauretania Caesariensis (modern Sour el-Ghozlane, in Algeria): there were trade routes across the Sahara into North Africa at the time, and historians have only recently begun to study the possible cultural and ethnic connections in this area.z'"
Numidian representation on Trajan's column.. Punic wars...
The hair do...
How to do the do...
Algeria : Portrait of a female Kabyle people - undated, probably around 1910 -
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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The Appearance of the Original Berbers According to European Perceptions
5th century AD - “The Moors have bodies black as night, while the skin of the Gauls is white..." written by Isidore of Seville from The Etymologies of Isidore of Seville - by Steven A. Barney published 2007. p. 386
10th to 11th century AD Iraqi Physician Ibn Butlan wrote, “The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters… “ cited in Gender and sexuality in the Middle Ages by Martha A. Brożyna p. 303 2005.
14th century - Sir John Mandeville had written : Though men of Nubia be Christian, they be as the Moors from the great heat of the sun, written by English Knight, Sir John Mandeville, (died 1372). See chapter 7 of the Travels of Sir John Mandeville (Penguin Classics).
Introduction
All the early major Berber tribes including the Masmuda, Sanhaja, Ketama Zenata and Nafusa are described as dark reddish brown like the “Indi’ or as “blacks” or Ethiopians in early documents. The notion of the early Berbers as being “whites” or Caucasoid is a new and racist one related to the concept of the African “Hamite”. Certainly the original Berber-speakers were never referred to as anything but “black” or something near it until the 12th century and were otherwise considered the color of Abyssinians and other so called “Indi”. Even the Kabyles a notoriously fair-skinned “Berber” people of North Africa are up until the 19th century described as “brown” "apart from a few clans". (See quotes below). The knowledge that Europeans were changing the complexion literally and figuratively of North Africa up until the 19th century has disappeared from modern European histories. Most know about the large part played by sub-saharan black slaves in the making of modern North Africa and Arabia while the white slave trade which was in fact dominant trade in North Africa until the fall of Constantinople (Istanbul in Turkey) in the 15th century had been largely ignored in historical writings of the 20th. Yet it was only a few centuries ago that Europeans visiting North Africa commenting on the fact that, “on almost every street of the cities of Barbary, Europeans could be seen harnessed to carts like draught horses or selling water from jars loaded on the backs of donkeys”.
1809 Commentary on those called “Moors” by an early 19th century observer: “They carry the Christian captives about the desert to the different markets to sell them for they soon discover that their habits of life render them unserviceable , or very inferior to the black slaves of Timbuktoo. “ from An Account of the Empire of Marocco, by J. G. Jackson published 1809 and 1814.
2003 - “From 1500 to 1650 when trans-Atlantic slaving was still in its infancy more Europeans were taken to Barbary than black African slaves to the Americas. See, Robert Davis Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800, MacMillan Publishers, published 2003.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The impact of the white slave trade and its contribution to the modern biology and appearance of the modern North African stems from before the Arabian and Muslim waves into Africa. The Roman ruler Claudian spoke concerning Gildo, the “Moorish” ruler of Africa and treatment of Roman women from the Levant by this North African chief and his countrymen:
4th century - Claudian wrote, “ when tired of each noblest matron Gildo hands her over to the Moors. These Sidonian mothers, married in Carthage city must needs mate with barbarians. He thrusts upon me an Ethiopian as a son-in law, a Berber as a husband. The hideous hybrid affrights its cradle.” Claudian, by Claudius Claudianus, translation by Maurice Platnauer, published by G.P. Putnam's sons, 1922 p. 113. (Gildo was brother to other Berber chiefs Firmus and Maseczel. Gildo is related to Aguellid or Galdi which remains the modern Tuarek word for chief. Masek, Amazigh ot Imoshagh was the name for the ancient and modern Tuareg clans in general. The Mezikes tribes were called “Ethiopians” in Roman texts of the time. )
1st c. A.D. - “Diodorus Siculus speaks in reference to the expedition of Agathocles a Sardinian general, of three Libyan tribes on the coast of Tunisia, the Micatani and Zufoni (see Zafan ),who were nomads and the Asfodelodi, who by the color of their skin resembled the Ethiopians” , p. 50 The Mediterranean Race Book XX, 38, 57 Guiseppe Sergi, 1901. The Micatani were also called Ukutameni and Khethim by Josephus. In later writings they are called Ketama Berbers. The name Maketa or Imakitan remains a name for the eastern branches of the Tuareg.
1st century A.D.– Marcus Valerian Martial was one of the earliest Europeans to use the phrase “woolly hair like a Moor” in one of his Satires, and the phrase was commonly used up until the Middle Ages. See Nature Knows No Color Line by J.A. Rogers, 1952. p. 50 The Muslim era didn’t begin until the birth of Muhammed, the Prophet, over four centuries after Martial. By the 7th century the word came to be used for Arabians who in the early era of Islam for the most part also of “black” complexion.
1st century Silius Italicus also describes the Moors with the term ‘Nigra’ meaning black. In the 3rd century Roman dramatist Platus or Plautus maintained the name Maure was a synonym for “Niger” which another common term for the blacks in Europe. 6th century Isidore Archbishop of Seville claimed the word Maure meant black according to Brunson and Runoko Rashidi in “The Moors in Antiquity” in Golden Age of the Moor, 1991.
6th A.D.- Corippus uses the phrase “facies nigroque colorus” meaning faces or appearance of black color to describe the North African Berbers. In his book Johannis, I/ 245.
6th A.D. - Procopius in his History of the Wars book IV contrasting the Germanic Vandals who had settled in North Africa with the Maures claimed the Vandals were not “black skinned like the Maurusioi” . The tribes he classified as Maurusioi are those called the Numidians, Masaesyle, Gaitules, Massyles and Mezikes several other “Berber” tribes then settled between Tunisia and Morocco. 9th century - According to old Norse Saga Danish (Viking) raiders attacked Spain from Ireland the saga says: “From the latter place they ‘carried off a great host of them as captives to Erin and these are the blue men of Ireland (fir goma of Erin) for Mauri is the same as black man, and Mauritania is the same as blackness…Long indeed were these blue men in Erin.’” Jack D. Forbes, Black Africans and Native Americans (New York : Basil Blackwell, 1988),p. 68. Another transalation says “because the Moors are the same as Negroes; Mauretanis is the same as Negro-land.” After the 8th century the term Moor came to be used for the many Arabian clans who had invaded the Mediterranean and Africa because of their complexions which were the same dark brown or near black to absolutely black color of the Berbers. Most of the Moors in Spain were in fact the people also first known as “the Arabians”.
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NUMI´DIA the central tract of country on the N. coast of Africa, which forms the largest portion of the country now occupied by the French, and called Algeria or Algérie. I. Name, Limits, and Inhiabitants.
The continuous system of highlands, which extends along the coast of the Mediterranean, was in the earliest period occupied by a race of people consisting of many tribes, of whom, the Berbers of the Algerine territories, or the Kabyles or Quabaîly, as they are called by the inhabitants of the cities, are the representatives. These peoples, speaking a language which was once spoken from the Fortunate Islands in the W. to the Cataracts of the Nile, and which still explains many names in ancient African topography, were called by the Romans Eth. Numidae, and embracing tribes of quite different characters, whites as well as blacks (though not negroes), a proper name, but a common (Strab. ii. p.131, xvii. pp. 833, 837.) Afterwards Numida and Numidia Ptol. 4.3; Pomp. Mela, 1.6; Plin. Nat. 5.2, 6.39) became the name of the nation and the country. Sometimes they were called MAURUSII NUMIDAE , Appian, App. BC 2.44), while the later writers always speak of them under the general name of MAUSI (Amm. Marc. 29.5; Procop. B. V. 2.4.) The most powerful among these tribes were the MASSYLI Plb. 3.44; Strab. ii. p.131, xvii. p. 829; Dionys. A. R. 187; Plb. 7.19; Massyli, Sil. Ital. 16.170; Massyla gens, Liv. 24.48), whose territories extended from the river Ampsaga to Tretum Prom. (Seba Rûs); and the
I've literally spent years reading about ancient numidia and never found any mention of black numidians so can you tell me what the author of this paragraph is referring to ?
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: "However, not all black Africans came from Egypt; Ammianus also mentions, in passing, that tribes of Aethiopi lived near Auzia in the province of Mauretania Caesariensis (modern Sour el-Ghozlane, in Algeria): there were trade routes across the Sahara into North Africa at the time, and historians have only recently begun to study the possible cultural and ethnic connections in this area.z'"
Indeed but as you can see these were not considered "libyans" "moors" or "numidians" they were described as "aethiops" and lived in the northern fringe of the saharan region (like today, you find many dark skinned group in this region) and not all dark skin people look like the "negro" example you post.
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: Numidian representation on Trajan's column.. Punic wars...
The hair do...
How to do the do...
Indeed these were not locks but they simply used to roll it like modern afars do
Roman bronze cavalry mask showing the portrait of a Numidian Moorish Prince. Late 1st-Early 2nd century AD
Moorish king Juba I :
Moorish king Juba II :
Masaesyle king Syphax :
and I can continue like this for hours...
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: Algeria : Portrait of a female Kabyle people - undated, probably around 1910 -
Back in the XIXth century and early XXth century, "kabyle" was used by french scholars to designate any berber person in algeria therefore I suppose these women are berbers from the Sahara region since their attires don't look kabyle.
Here are vintage pictures of proper kabyle berbers :
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: The Appearance of the Original Berbers According to European Perceptions
5th century AD - “The Moors have bodies black as night, while the skin of the Gauls is white..." written by Isidore of Seville from The Etymologies of Isidore of Seville - by Steven A. Barney published 2007. p. 386
The impact of the white slave trade and its contribution to the modern biology and appearance of the modern North African stems from before the Arabian and Muslim waves into Africa. The Roman ruler Claudian spoke concerning Gildo, the “Moorish” ruler of Africa and treatment of Roman women from the Levant by this North African chief and his countrymen:
4th century - Claudian wrote, “ when tired of each noblest matron Gildo hands her over to the Moors. These Sidonian mothers, married in Carthage city must needs mate with barbarians. He thrusts upon me an Ethiopian as a son-in law, a Berber as a husband. The hideous hybrid affrights its cradle.” Claudian, by Claudius Claudianus, translation by Maurice Platnauer, published by G.P. Putnam's sons, 1922 p. 113. (Gildo was brother to other Berber chiefs Firmus and Maseczel. Gildo is related to Aguellid or Galdi which remains the modern Tuarek word for chief. Masek, Amazigh ot Imoshagh was the name for the ancient and modern Tuareg clans in general. The Mezikes tribes were called “Ethiopians” in Roman texts of the time. )
1st c. A.D. - “Diodorus Siculus speaks in reference to the expedition of Agathocles a Sardinian general, of three Libyan tribes on the coast of Tunisia, the Micatani and Zufoni (see Zafan ),who were nomads and the Asfodelodi, who by the color of their skin resembled the Ethiopians” , p. 50 The Mediterranean Race Book XX, 38, 57 Guiseppe Sergi, 1901. The Micatani were also called Ukutameni and Khethim by Josephus. In later writings they are called Ketama Berbers. The name Maketa or Imakitan remains a name for the eastern branches of the Tuareg.
1st century A.D.– Marcus Valerian Martial was one of the earliest Europeans to use the phrase “woolly hair like a Moor” in one of his Satires, and the phrase was commonly used up until the Middle Ages. See Nature Knows No Color Line by J.A. Rogers, 1952. p. 50 The Muslim era didn’t begin until the birth of Muhammed, the Prophet, over four centuries after Martial. By the 7th century the word came to be used for Arabians who in the early era of Islam for the most part also of “black” complexion.
1st century Silius Italicus also describes the Moors with the term ‘Nigra’ meaning black. In the 3rd century Roman dramatist Platus or Plautus maintained the name Maure was a synonym for “Niger” which another common term for the blacks in Europe. 6th century Isidore Archbishop of Seville claimed the word Maure meant black according to Brunson and Runoko Rashidi in “The Moors in Antiquity” in Golden Age of the Moor, 1991.
6th A.D.- Corippus uses the phrase “facies nigroque colorus” meaning faces or appearance of black color to describe the North African Berbers. In his book Johannis, I/ 245.
6th A.D. - Procopius in his History of the Wars book IV contrasting the Germanic Vandals who had settled in North Africa with the Maures claimed the Vandals were not “black skinned like the Maurusioi” . The tribes he classified as Maurusioi are those called the Numidians, Masaesyle, Gaitules, Massyles and Mezikes several other “Berber” tribes then settled between Tunisia and Morocco. 9th century - According to old Norse Saga Danish (Viking) raiders attacked Spain from Ireland the saga says: “From the latter place they ‘carried off a great host of them as captives to Erin and these are the blue men of Ireland (fir goma of Erin) for Mauri is the same as black man, and Mauritania is the same as blackness…Long indeed were these blue men in Erin.’” Jack D. Forbes, Black Africans and Native Americans (New York : Basil Blackwell, 1988),p. 68. Another transalation says “because the Moors are the same as Negroes; Mauretanis is the same as Negro-land.” After the 8th century the term Moor came to be used for the many Arabian clans who had invaded the Mediterranean and Africa because of their complexions which were the same dark brown or near black to absolutely black color of the Berbers. Most of the Moors in Spain were in fact the people also first known as “the Arabians”.
At the time of Isidore of Seville and Procopius, "mauri" didn't designate proper coastal north africans but non-romanized berber gentes who lived outside the border of the empire :
quote:Like Procopius, the poet also recognizes three distinct communities in Africa: Romani, Afri, and Mauri. If the first two are often confused, the third is always clearly separated, as with the Greek historian. But this opposition is constructed in a very different way. Corippe knows the Moors well, and he shows it abundantly. For him, this is not an alien and abstract reality, but neighbors he has frequently encountered. […] They appear in his work under an even more negative aspect than in the works of Procopius. Radically distinguished from other Africans, they accumulate the most pejorative epithets. The Moor is thus successively ferus, acerbus, horridus, nefandus, amarus, saevus, impius, malignus26 ... One man, Antalas, sums up all these faults in himself: predisposed from his birth to evil, he caused all the woes of Africa
quote:Procopius contrasts several categories in the population. He first of all distinguishes the" Moors "from the" Libyans ". We have seen how the first term now designates, across the whole of Africa, members of tribes who are not Romanized (it may be necessary to make some space for an additional cultural category, that of rural people attached to the use of Punic); the second designates in fact the Romano-Africans, the name of "Romans" being reserved for the Byzantines
Africa quasi Roma by Jean-Marie Lassère, p. 717
quote:One gets the sense from Corippus that there were in fact two Africas: one, a world of serene tranquillity, cultivated like the gardens that Procopius describes with such wonder and whose fruits so plentifully adorn the mosaics of this time and region; the other, a dark and terrifying place, existing on the fringes of the world which Christianity and Roman civilization had surrounded and enclosed, and which Byzantine arms protected against all comers. Indeed, to judge from the Iohannis, Corippus hated and feared the Moors. In the poet’s mind, these nonRoman Africans seemed to be wild, untamed savages (feri) living beyond the pale of civilization. But then, Corippus was an imperial apologist,and his evidence must be treated with great caution. Indeed, Moorish barbarism was a key element of sixth-century Byzantine propaganda in Africa, and so the cultured Latin poet had good reason to depict Moors in as dark a light as possible.
Jonathan Conant, Staying Roman - Conquest and Identity in Africa and the Mediterranean, p.252-253
These "Moors" were viewed as descendent of phoenicians (are you now implying phoenicians were black ?) :
quote:But it also mattered that Moors be excluded from these same stories of collective ancestry. Procopius calls the Moors ‘a Phoenician people’ , which on the face of it could potentially have served to emphasize commonalities between them and at least some of the peoples under imperial control. Unlike Romans, though, in Procopius’ vision, the Moors were on the wrong side both of history and of God. In the historian’s telling, Moors were descendants of the peoples displaced from ancient Phoenicia by the Hebrews after the biblical exodus; the Moors’ arrival in Africa was said to have preceded that of the next wave of Phoenician emigrants her companions – and the foundation of Punic Carthage.45 However unconvincing this account of Moorish origins may seem to modern observers, to Procopius, the Moors were a people apart.46 In seeking to demonstrate that a vast cultural gulf separated them from Romans, Procopius and Corippus – as well as a number of other secular poets and ecclesiastical writers from both Africa and the rest of the late antique Mediterranean – brought together a wide array of cultural prejudices and chauvinism, which they wielded like weapons. Moors and Romans, these authors insisted, could be distinguished by the whole range of traditional markers of ethnic identity: language, diet, dress and battlegear, military tactics, marriage customs, religion, and even the perceived darkness of their skin.
Jonathan Conant, Staying Roman - Conquest and Identity in Africa and the Mediterranean, p.261-262
So as you can see everything was made to alienate them and construct as much contrast as possible.
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: 10th to 11th century AD Iraqi Physician Ibn Butlan wrote, “The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters… “ cited in Gender and sexuality in the Middle Ages by Martha A. Brożyna p. 303 2005.
This could mean anything lol did you forget there are black berbers everywhere in the Sahara ? Anyway this is what he also said :
quote:According to the merchant Abû 'Uthmân, the ideal slave is the Berber girl who is exported from her country at the age of nine, who spends three years in Medina and three years in the Mekke, and who arrives at sixteen in Mesopotamia to be educated in a refined manner. Thus, when she is sold at twenty-five, she possesses her racial excellence, Medina the coquetry of the Medina, the delicacy of the Makko and the culture of a Mesopotamian woman.In the markets, the black women are highlighted, it is the blackest, the ugliest, and what that one distinguishes best are the teeth. (...) They are fickle and careless. Dancing and clapping are part of their nature. (...) They have very white teeth because of their saliva. The smell emitted by their armpit is unpleasant and their skin is coarse. (...) With a beautiful skin, the Turkish woman is full of grace and animation. Her eyes are small but seductive. They are round and tend to be small. There are very few tall ones among them. They are prolific in children but their offspring are offspring is rarely unsightly.
So can you tell us why he mentionned "berber girl" with all its qualities and then separately talks about black women ? Aren't they supposed to be the same ?
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: 14th century - Sir John Mandeville had written : Though men of Nubia be Christian, they be as the Moors from the great heat of the sun, written by English Knight, Sir John Mandeville, (died 1372). See chapter 7 of the Travels of Sir John Mandeville (Penguin Classics).
During the 14th century, "moor" didn't only designate north africans :
quote:despite such terms as "Arabian Moors" or "Turkish Moors", both were usually described as mouros brancos ("white moors"), while Berber and sub-saharan muslims were frequently distinguished between mouros da terra (Portuguese for "moors from the land") or mouros negros (black moors). [...] This complex relation between ethnicity, geography and religion informed the evolution of "blackamoor", often used alongside region-inflected words like "Niger" or "Ethiop". English grammars and dictionaries of the time made similar associations: "a black more, or a man of Ethiope"; The Negro[sic], which we call the Black-mores.
Keywords of Identity, Race, and Human Mobility in Early Modern England
so a berber and a black muslim could have been described as "moor"
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: Introduction
All the early major Berber tribes including the Masmuda, Sanhaja, Ketama Zenata and Nafusa are described as dark reddish brown like the “Indi’ or as “blacks” or Ethiopians in early documents. The notion of the early Berbers as being “whites” or Caucasoid is a new and racist one related to the concept of the African “Hamite”. Certainly the original Berber-speakers were never referred to as anything but “black” or something near it until the 12th century and were otherwise considered the color of Abyssinians and other so called “Indi”. Even the Kabyles a notoriously fair-skinned “Berber” people of North Africa are up until the 19th century described as “brown” "apart from a few clans". (See quotes below). The knowledge that Europeans were changing the complexion literally and figuratively of North Africa up until the 19th century has disappeared from modern European histories. Most know about the large part played by sub-saharan black slaves in the making of modern North Africa and Arabia while the white slave trade which was in fact dominant trade in North Africa until the fall of Constantinople (Istanbul in Turkey) in the 15th century had been largely ignored in historical writings of the 20th. Yet it was only a few centuries ago that Europeans visiting North Africa commenting on the fact that, “on almost every street of the cities of Barbary, Europeans could be seen harnessed to carts like draught horses or selling water from jars loaded on the backs of donkeys”.
1809 Commentary on those called “Moors” by an early 19th century observer: “They carry the Christian captives about the desert to the different markets to sell them for they soon discover that their habits of life render them unserviceable , or very inferior to the black slaves of Timbuktoo. “ from An Account of the Empire of Marocco, by J. G. Jackson published 1809 and 1814.
No comment lol the source is quite telling.
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: 2003 - “From 1500 to 1650 when trans-Atlantic slaving was still in its infancy more Europeans were taken to Barbary than black African slaves to the Americas. See, Robert Davis Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800, MacMillan Publishers, published 2003.
reread : "from 1500 to 1650" that's 150 years meanwhile the trans-saharan slave trade lasted 1300 years at least. Barbary slave trade involved mostly males (male slaves ofc couldn't marry berber women) who were ransomed back by christian associations that's how these corsairs used to make money meanwhile black slaves were never ransomed back and stayed in North africa :
quote:But few white slaves exported as such from Europe were sold in the Maghreb after the high Middle Ages. [...] Whatever the case, the fact remains that so long as the Arab World needed black slaves, it had to keep on importing them, from across the Sahara, down the Nile Valley, or by sea from East Africa"
John Wright, the Trans-Saharan Slave Trade, pp. 23-24
quote: Slavery was an ancient institution in Morocco." Located at the northern terminus of the trans-Saharan trade routes, for many centuries Morocco received a continuous influx of slaves from West Africa, the Sahara, and the Mediterranean regions. However, the majority of slaves in Morocco came from the Western Sudan through the trans-Saharan trade. A large number of captives were taken from the Western Sudan during the Sa'adiyyin invasion of the kingdom of Songhay at the end of the sixteenth century. The import of West African slaves into Morocco continued until the late nineteenth century when the French occupied the region. Slaves were brought to Tafilalt in southern Morocco via Tuwat, from which they were distributed to the rest of the country. Although the French succeeded in curtailing the slave trade from West Africa, clandestine slave trafficking continued throughout the first two decades of the twentieth century. Slave markets existed in major Moroccan cities such as Fez, Rabat, and Marrakesh."
quote:This undeclared naval war delivered thousands of Christians, captured at sea or in raids on the coasts of southern Europe and islands, as slaves to the Barbary states. It has been suggested that there may have been between 20,000 and 50,000 such slaves in Algiers and surroundings in the sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries; a peak of 10,000 in Tunis at the end of the sixteenth century; while Tripoli had only 1,500 such slaves, at most, in the late seventeenth century. Numbers fell in the eighteenth century as the main European fleets (France, Britain, Holland) became more powerful. By the late 1780s there were barely 500 European slaves in Algiers, with only 1,500 in Tunis and some 600 in Tripoli at the beginning of the nineteenth century "
John Wright, the Trans-Saharan Slave Trade, pp. 46
and now the trans-saharan slave trade :
quote:Mass Arab enslavement of Black Africans began in the seventh century , soon after the founding of Islam and the beginning of Arab-Islamic civilisation. It lasted at least until the early part of the twentieth century. Roughly 4,820,000 Black Africans were taken into slavery in North Africa between 650 and 1600 AD alone (Harich et al. 2010). Approximately 14 million Blacks were wrenched from their homelands and forced into slavery in the Muslim World as a whole from the seventh to twentieth century (Harich et al. 2010).
quote:The question of the volume of this trade is obviously difficult to determine. Let us say that the total volume of slavery in Arab and Muslim lands could not have been less than 20 million. If this figure could be refined, we would probably arrive at an estimate of between 15 and 30 million enslaved people, for different reasons (war, trade, barter) and in different bodies (domesticity, army, administration, agriculture, harem), and this, at a corrected annual average of 2 to 3 million per century.
L'esclavage en terre d'Islam, Malek Chebel, p. 90
quote:"In his monumental Tableau géographique de l’Ouest Africain au moyen age, Raymond Mauny estimated that in its first 900 years (seventh–fifteenth centuries), the Islamic Saharan trade delivered nearly 6 million live black slaves to the far side of the desert. According to his calculations, the trade started at a modest average rate of 1,000 slaves/year in the seventh century, doubled in the next century and again in the ninth, reached 5,000 slaves/year in thirteenth century, doubled to 10,000/year in the fourteenth century, and doubled again to 20,000/year in the fifteenth. The trade continued at that average yearly rate, Mauny believed, until the twentieth century; however he later revised his figures upwards125 (see Table 3.1)."
John Wright, the Trans-Saharan Slave Trade, pp. 38
The genetic influence of these black slaves is detected (meanwhile I challenge you to find the impact of european slaves) :
quote:Comparing our results with previously reported genome-wide data, we also find evidence for a sex-biased sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africans, suggesting that historical events such as the trans-Saharan slave trade mainly contributed to the mtDNA and autosomal gene pool, whereas the northern African paternal gene pool was mainly shaped by more ancient events."
quote:A proportion of 1/4 to 1/2 of North African female pool is made of typical sub-Saharan lineages, in higher frequencies as geographic proximity to sub-Saharan Africa increases. The Sahara was a strong geographical barrier against gene flow, at least since 5,000 years ago, when desertification affected a larger region, but the Arab trans-Saharan slave trade could have facilitate enormously this migration of lineages." "The interpolation analyses and complete sequencing of present mtDNA sub-Saharan lineages observed in North Africa support the genetic impact of recent trans-Saharan migrations, namely the slave trade initiated by the Arab conquest of North Africa in the seventh century. Sub-Saharan people did not leave traces in the North African maternal gene pool for the time of its settlement, some 40,000 years ago.
quote:Other L3 lineages seem to have been introduced even in more recent times, during the slave trade initiated by the Arab conquest of North Africa [67]. The Near Eastern haplogroups J and T (and probably K) appear to be concentrated more towards the east [68], mirroring the higher densities of U6, H and V in the west [64].
quote:Our most recent estimated dates correlate with sub-Saharan admixture in North Africa, which is continuous during the last few centuries (from the 13th century to the 20th century, see cluster L in fig. 5), as previously suggested by historical records (Newman 1995) and genetic data (Harich et al. 2010; Henn et al. 2012). However, it is noteworthy that very precise dates are found in some cases in the 17th century in western clusters (see cluster K and M). The admixture dates in the 17th century could be the consequence of the trans-Saharan slave trade that resulted from the Ottoman rule in North Africa and the arrival of the Crown of Castile and the Portuguese Kingdom to the West African seaports in the 16th century. The Iberian presence, driven by the search of a workforce in their recent settled Atlantic territories, modified the political and socioeconomic structure of Western Africa. This also intensified traffic through trans-Saharan routes to North Africa after the emergence of the sugar industry in this region and the Atlantic territories (Newman 1995; Oliver and Atmore 2001; Da Mosto 2003). Comparison of inferred ancestry proportions between the autosomes and X chromosome in Cluster M is indicative of sex-biased admixture with an overabundance of males with Middle Eastern (Syrian-like) ancestry and females with sub-Saharan African (Yoruba-like) ancestry. Moreover, we infer a lower proportion of sub-Saharan ancestry older than previously described in all admixture events dated from the first century B.C., which could be attributed to more ancient slave trade during the Roman or Islamic periods, such as the servile Haratin population of Nilo-Saharan origin in Berber groups such as the Sanhadja and Zenata (Newman 1995). Caution is warranted, however, as there are serious difficulties in reliably estimating the proportions contributed by each source population in the admixture events, mainly because the lack of a proper ancestral North African population. In our analyses, we have considered the population from Tunisia Chenini as the best proxy, but genetic drift in Chenini samples due to isolation and interbreeding might substantially underestimate the contribution of the autochthonous ancestral groups in extant North African populations."
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